To Troll or Not to Troll

[Richard Bates]

Chaps,
Some people on URC think Matt B is a troll. Some people don't. If
people (myself included) wish to reply and discuss issues with Matt then
please let us.

Messages of the "please don't feed the troll" variety are just as
annoying to me as the "troll wrestling" is to you.

Whilst I find Matt's arguments contradict my beliefs, I find him well
mannered, and able to discuss things in an adult and thought-provoking
manner.

Can we please live and let live. A reply to Matt is likely to contain
the expression "Matt B" and should be very easy to ignore.

Thanks, Rich x

[Tony Raven[_2_]]

Richard Bates wrote on 01/06/2007 15:59 +0100:
> Chaps,
> Some people on URC think Matt B is a troll. Some people don't. If
> people (myself included) wish to reply and discuss issues with Matt then
> please let us.
>
> Messages of the "please don't feed the troll" variety are just as
> annoying to me as the "troll wrestling" is to you.
>
> Whilst I find Matt's arguments contradict my beliefs, I find him well
> mannered, and able to discuss things in an adult and thought-provoking
> manner.
>
> Can we please live and let live. A reply to Matt is likely to contain
> the expression "Matt B" and should be very easy to ignore.
>
> Thanks, Rich x

Personally its easier to plonk the troll wrestler too and then the two
of you can wrestle to your hearts content out of my sight. Bye.

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

[David Damerell]

Quoting Richard Bates >:
> Some people on URC think Matt B is a troll. Some people don't.

Name six.

>Whilst I find Matt's arguments contradict my beliefs, I find him well
>mannered, and able to discuss things in an adult and thought-provoking
>manner.

Find. But since those things are almost always off-topic, why not take it
to email?
--
David Damerell > Kill the tomato!
Today is Wednesday, June.

[Ekul Namsob]

Tony Raven > wrote:

> Richard Bates wrote on 01/06/2007 15:59 +0100:
> > Chaps,
> > Some people on URC think Matt B is a troll. Some people don't. If
> > people (myself included) wish to reply and discuss issues with Matt then
> > please let us.
> >
> > Messages of the "please don't feed the troll" variety are just as
> > annoying to me as the "troll wrestling" is to you.
> >
> > Whilst I find Matt's arguments contradict my beliefs, I find him well
> > mannered, and able to discuss things in an adult and thought-provoking
> > manner.
> >
> > Can we please live and let live. A reply to Matt is likely to contain
> > the expression "Matt B" and should be very easy to ignore.

> Personally its easier to plonk the troll wrestler too and then the two
> of you can wrestle to your hearts content out of my sight. Bye.

Auto-kill thread by 'From' header is a tremendously useful tool. It
surprises me that more newsreaders don't have it.

Cheers,
Luke


--
Lincoln City 0-2 Southend United (AET)
Swansea City 2-2 Southend United
We went up twice with Tilly and Brush

[Mark Thompson]

> Some people on URC think Matt B is a troll. Some people don't. If
> people (myself included) wish to reply and discuss issues with Matt then
> please let us.

Correction: "Matt B is a troll. Some numpties haven't realised it yet".

After a couple of years you'll soon realise that he doesn't listen/learn -
just recycles the same off topic nonsense. Take it to email if you must
waste your time with him.

[Richard Fairhurst]

Mark Thompson
<pleasegivegenerously@warmmail*_turn_up_the_heat_to _reply*.com> wrote:
> Correction: "Matt B is a troll. Some numpties haven't realised it yet".
>
> After a couple of years you'll soon realise that he doesn't listen/learn -
> just recycles the same off topic nonsense. Take it to email if you must
> waste your time with him.

A lurker writes:

Well, maybe. From what I've read of Matt B he doesn't make a whole
load of useful sense to my eyes.

But, on the other hand, I also get thoroughly exasperated with a
couple of seemingly well-respected regulars who appear to have a
kneejerk reaction to the phrases "National Cycle Network" or
"Sustrans", inevitably requiring a response along the lines of "Ho ho
ho, we're _proper_ cyclists, you'd never catch us using any of this
Sustrans crap, that's only used by ponces who drive their 2mpg 4x4s to
a Sustrans route, cycle half a mile, and come back - and anyone who
enjoys these routes is a pitiable amateur". Given that this view is at
least as contrary to my experience as Matt B's views on various topics
are, I'm not really inclined to subscribe to the froupthink and start
throwing words like 'troll' around.

Richard Bates is right. If you object to him, learn to use a
newsreader, and killfile him - or give it a rest on the holier-than-
thou comments.

Richard

[Tony Raven[_2_]]

Richard Fairhurst wrote on 02/06/2007 01:06 +0100:
>
> But, on the other hand, I also get thoroughly exasperated with a
> couple of seemingly well-respected regulars who appear to have a
> kneejerk reaction to the phrases "National Cycle Network" or
> "Sustrans", inevitably requiring a response along the lines of "Ho ho
> ho, we're _proper_ cyclists, you'd never catch us using any of this
> Sustrans crap, that's only used by ponces who drive their 2mpg 4x4s to
> a Sustrans route, cycle half a mile, and come back - and anyone who
> enjoys these routes is a pitiable amateur".

That's interesting as I can't recall anyone here saying that. Quite a
few here take issue with what Sustrans build not being fit for purpose.


--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

[Ekul Namsob]

Tony Raven > wrote:

> Richard Fairhurst wrote on 02/06/2007 01:06 +0100:
> >
> > But, on the other hand, I also get thoroughly exasperated with a
> > couple of seemingly well-respected regulars who appear to have a
> > kneejerk reaction to the phrases "National Cycle Network" or
> > "Sustrans", inevitably requiring a response along the lines of "Ho ho
> > ho, we're _proper_ cyclists, you'd never catch us using any of this
> > Sustrans crap, that's only used by ponces who drive their 2mpg 4x4s to
> > a Sustrans route, cycle half a mile, and come back - and anyone who
> > enjoys these routes is a pitiable amateur".
>
> That's interesting as I can't recall anyone here saying that. Quite a
> few here take issue with what Sustrans build not being fit for purpose.

Quite. You'd have to be quite a skilled cyclist to use many of Sustrans'
routes round here. Pitiable amateurs wouldn't have a hope.

Cheers,
Luke


--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>

[David Damerell]

Quoting Richard Fairhurst >:
>But, on the other hand, I also get thoroughly exasperated with a
>couple of seemingly well-respected regulars who appear to have a
>kneejerk reaction to the phrases "National Cycle Network" or
>"Sustrans",

My last experience of Sustrans was that it is slower to ride 20 miles on
NCN 1 - a disused railway with railway gradients - with a tailwind, when
fresh - that it is to ride 18 miles on the road over the North York Moors
- ie, with regular steep ascents up grades up to 1 in 5 - into a headwind
with a hangover after four days of debauchery at the Whitby Goth Weekend.

How _bad_ does a route have to be for that to be the case? This is hardly
a kneejerk.
--
David Damerell > flcl?
Today is Thursday, June.

[Alan Braggins]

Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>Mark Thompson
><pleasegivegenerously@warmmail*_turn_up_the_heat_to _reply*.com> wrote:
>> Correction: "Matt B is a troll. Some numpties haven't realised it yet".
>>
>> After a couple of years you'll soon realise that he doesn't listen/learn -
>> just recycles the same off topic nonsense.

>couple of seemingly well-respected regulars who appear to have a
>kneejerk reaction to the phrases "National Cycle Network" or "Sustrans"
>[...] Given that this view is at
>least as contrary to my experience as Matt B's views on various topics
>are, I'm not really inclined to subscribe to the froupthink and start
>throwing words like 'troll' around.

How many of those regulars never discuss any other subject? When have
you ever seen MattB talk about cycling?

He _could_ merely be an off-topic monomaniac who never learns, but for
all practical purposes he's effectively a troll.

[Tony Raven[_2_]]

David Damerell wrote on 02/06/2007 09:37 +0100:
> Quoting Richard Fairhurst >:
>> But, on the other hand, I also get thoroughly exasperated with a
>> couple of seemingly well-respected regulars who appear to have a
>> kneejerk reaction to the phrases "National Cycle Network" or
>> "Sustrans",
>
> My last experience of Sustrans was that it is slower to ride 20 miles on
> NCN 1 - a disused railway with railway gradients - with a tailwind, when
> fresh - that it is to ride 18 miles on the road over the North York Moors
> - ie, with regular steep ascents up grades up to 1 in 5 - into a headwind
> with a hangover after four days of debauchery at the Whitby Goth Weekend.
>
> How _bad_ does a route have to be for that to be the case? This is hardly
> a kneejerk.

Try it with a pannier loaded touring bike or a tandem or trailer bike or
recumbent or trike and see if you can get further than the first barrier.

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

[Ekul Namsob]

Tony Raven > wrote:

> David Damerell wrote on 02/06/2007 09:37 +0100:
> > Quoting Richard Fairhurst >:
> >> But, on the other hand, I also get thoroughly exasperated with a
> >> couple of seemingly well-respected regulars who appear to have a
> >> kneejerk reaction to the phrases "National Cycle Network" or
> >> "Sustrans",
> >
> > My last experience of Sustrans was that it is slower to ride 20 miles on
> > NCN 1 - a disused railway with railway gradients - with a tailwind, when
> > fresh - that it is to ride 18 miles on the road over the North York Moors
> > - ie, with regular steep ascents up grades up to 1 in 5 - into a headwind
> > with a hangover after four days of debauchery at the Whitby Goth Weekend.
> >
> > How _bad_ does a route have to be for that to be the case? This is hardly
> > a kneejerk.
>
> Try it with a pannier loaded touring bike or a tandem or trailer bike or
> recumbent or trike and see if you can get further than the first barrier.

Yesterday we had the pleasure of a representative from TravelSmart to
help us find a way of getting Small to ballet and to nursery. Both of
these are in the city centre and both are journeys that, up to now, we
have done using the car.

The rep was at first happy to recommend the NCN route that passes within
400 yards of our house and leads to the city centre. I was pleased that
he quickly took on board the problems: there are frequent barriers that
would make travel by anything other than a standard bicycle impossible,
the path is frequently flooded and the gradient in the city centre is
greater than 1 in 10. The maps he had been provided with conveniently
omit any indications of gradient.

That particular part of the NCN is quite unsuitable for cycling with a
trailer, for tandeming and for anyone who prefers to travel without a
lifejacket, which rather leaves one wondering what the point of the NCN
actually is.

Until Sustrans started drawing routes (I was going to use the word
'planning' but that would be a bit strong) round here I was firmly in
favour of them. I wonder why no supporters of Sustrans ever seem to come
to their defence on this group.

Cheers,
Luke

--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>

[David Hansen]

On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:06:34 -0700 someone who may be Richard
Fairhurst > wrote this:-

>Richard Bates is right. If you object to him, learn to use a
>newsreader, and killfile him

AOL. Should someone not wish to read what someone else has typed
they can easily ignore them, either automatically or by hand.

Easy peasy, no need for aggravation.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

[Tony Raven[_2_]]

Ekul Namsob wrote on 02/06/2007 10:44 +0100:
>
> Until Sustrans started drawing routes (I was going to use the word
> 'planning' but that would be a bit strong) round here I was firmly in
> favour of them. I wonder why no supporters of Sustrans ever seem to come
> to their defence on this group.
>

Some do. MJ Ray for example IIRC.


--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

[Tony Raven[_2_]]

David Hansen wrote on 02/06/2007 11:00 +0100:
> On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:06:34 -0700 someone who may be Richard
> Fairhurst > wrote this:-
>
>> Richard Bates is right. If you object to him, learn to use a
>> newsreader, and killfile him
>
> AOL. Should someone not wish to read what someone else has typed
> they can easily ignore them, either automatically or by hand.
>
> Easy peasy, no need for aggravation.
>

In theory. But if someone persists in troll wrestling you have the
choice of either ignoring everything they post, which can be a shame, or
ignoring a thread which can mean missing valuable non-troll postings
from others or having to wade through one side of a troll wrestle to get
to the interesting post. So there is no easy solution. What you really
need is a filter that works on the first line of the body text to look
for the troll's name. But I don't know of usenet clients that can do that.


--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

[David Hansen]

On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 11:06:09 +0100 someone who may be Tony Raven
> wrote this:-

>> AOL. Should someone not wish to read what someone else has typed
>> they can easily ignore them, either automatically or by hand.
>
>In theory. But if someone persists in troll wrestling you have the
>choice of either ignoring everything they post, which can be a shame, or
>ignoring a thread which can mean missing valuable non-troll postings
>from others or having to wade through one side of a troll wrestle to get
>to the interesting post. So there is no easy solution.

I think what is easy depends on ones mood and the amount of free
time. Given that the same things tend to come round if one misses a
pearl of wisdom it is likely to be made again in another thread.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

[Membrane]

Tony Raven > wrote:

>What you really
>need is a filter that works on the first line of the body text to look
>for the troll's name. But I don't know of usenet clients that can do that.

I filter based on a poster's name/handle, my locally running news server
looks for the string throughout the message body, if found the message
is not stored. A crude method obviously, but at the expense of missing
the occasional post that should not have been binned it gets rid of the
poster and most direct follow-ups to their posts.

For Google Group users I use:

?-1 Header "Organization: http://groups.google.com"
?-2 References {.googlegroups.com>$}

which is a 100% reliable way to get rid of any posts entered via GG and
direct follow-ups.

--
Membrane

[Ekul Namsob]

Tony Raven > wrote:

> David Hansen wrote on 02/06/2007 11:00 +0100:
> > On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:06:34 -0700 someone who may be Richard
> > Fairhurst > wrote this:-
> >
> >> Richard Bates is right. If you object to him, learn to use a
> >> newsreader, and killfile him
> >
> > AOL. Should someone not wish to read what someone else has typed
> > they can easily ignore them, either automatically or by hand.
> >
> > Easy peasy, no need for aggravation.
> >
>
> In theory. But if someone persists in troll wrestling you have the
> choice of either ignoring everything they post, which can be a shame, or
> ignoring a thread which can mean missing valuable non-troll postings
> from others or having to wade through one side of a troll wrestle to get
> to the interesting post. So there is no easy solution. What you really
> need is a filter that works on the first line of the body text to look
> for the troll's name. But I don't know of usenet clients that can do that.

MacSOUP will auto-kill by subthread. There is one regular poster to this
group whose existence is only ever now confirmed to me by threads such
as this.

Cheers,
Luke

--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>

[Rob Morley]

In article >, Tony Raven
says...
<snip>
> What you really
> need is a filter that works on the first line of the body text to look
> for the troll's name. But I don't know of usenet clients that can do that.
>
Gravity can filter on text in the body of a message. You can set it to
mark as read any message containing the name or email address of a
poster, as well as anything posted by him, so any followups with proper
attributions will be filtered.

[David Damerell]

Quoting Tony Raven >:
>David Damerell wrote on 02/06/2007 09:37 +0100:
>>My last experience of Sustrans was that it is slower to ride 20 miles on
>>NCN 1 - a disused railway with railway gradients - with a tailwind, when
>>fresh - that it is to ride 18 miles on the road over the North York Moors
>>- ie, with regular steep ascents up grades up to 1 in 5 - into a headwind
>>with a hangover after four days of debauchery at the Whitby Goth Weekend.
>Try it with a pannier loaded touring bike

Actually, I _had_ two full panniers and a saddlebag - it's not as
barriertastic as some - but that didn't make the hills on the road any
easier.
--
David Damerell > flcl?
Today is Thursday, June.

[Dane Buson]

Tony Raven > wrote:
> What you really need is a filter that works on the first line of the
> body text to look for the troll's name. But I don't know of usenet
> clients that can do that.

I believe someone mentioned that the Gravity client could do such a
thing, but I don't know first hand. I've done something similar by
using Leafnode, some Perl script, chewing gum and bailing wire. I
currently don't see any responses to MattB, Dolan, or M*k* V**d*m*n.

--
Dane Buson -
Under any conditions, anywhere, whatever you are doing, there is some
ordinance under which you can be booked.
-- Robert D. Sprecht, Rand Corp.

[Roger Merriman]

Tony Raven > wrote:

> David Hansen wrote on 02/06/2007 11:00 +0100:
> > On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:06:34 -0700 someone who may be Richard
> > Fairhurst > wrote this:-
> >
> >> Richard Bates is right. If you object to him, learn to use a
> >> newsreader, and killfile him
> >
> > AOL. Should someone not wish to read what someone else has typed
> > they can easily ignore them, either automatically or by hand.
> >
> > Easy peasy, no need for aggravation.
> >
>
> In theory. But if someone persists in troll wrestling you have the
> choice of either ignoring everything they post, which can be a shame, or
> ignoring a thread which can mean missing valuable non-troll postings
> from others or having to wade through one side of a troll wrestle to get
> to the interesting post. So there is no easy solution. What you really
> need is a filter that works on the first line of the body text to look
> for the troll's name. But I don't know of usenet clients that can do that.

as luke says macsoup can kill the post and replys to that post, i'd be
amazed if one of the windows newsreaders can't if not ask most small
software compaines are quite responsive.

roger

[Roger Merriman]

Alan Braggins > wrote:

> Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> >Mark Thompson
> ><pleasegivegenerously@warmmail*_turn_up_the_heat_to _reply*.com> wrote:
> >> Correction: "Matt B is a troll. Some numpties haven't realised it yet".
> >>
> >> After a couple of years you'll soon realise that he doesn't listen/learn -
> >> just recycles the same off topic nonsense.
>
> >couple of seemingly well-respected regulars who appear to have a
> >kneejerk reaction to the phrases "National Cycle Network" or "Sustrans"
> >[...] Given that this view is at
> >least as contrary to my experience as Matt B's views on various topics
> >are, I'm not really inclined to subscribe to the froupthink and start
> >throwing words like 'troll' around.
>
> How many of those regulars never discuss any other subject? When have
> you ever seen MattB talk about cycling?
>
> He _could_ merely be an off-topic monomaniac who never learns, but for
> all practical purposes he's effectively a troll.

he seems to want to talk about transport, but not cycling as such.

my feeling is he's a rather stuck record about various transport ideas.
troll, no or at least he's a world away from other trolls

roger

[Alan Braggins]

In article >, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>
>> He _could_ merely be an off-topic monomaniac who never learns, but for
>> all practical purposes he's effectively a troll.
>
>he seems to want to talk about transport, but not cycling as such.

Right. In a cycling newsgroup, when uk.transport exists. Were he to
post in uk.transport, I doubt he would be regarded as a troll, just
as tedious.


>troll, no or at least he's a world away from other trolls

Being in a world of his own doesn't stop him being effectively a troll.

[Duncan Smith]

On Jun 2, 12:14 pm, Membrane > wrote:
> Tony Raven > wrote:
> >What you really
> >need is a filter that works on the first line of the body text to look
> >for the troll's name. But I don't know of usenet clients that can do that.
>
> I filter based on a poster's name/handle, my locally running news server
> looks for the string throughout the message body, if found the message
> is not stored. A crude method obviously, but at the expense of missing
> the occasional post that should not have been binned it gets rid of the
> poster and most direct follow-ups to their posts.
>
> For Google Group users I use:
>
> ?-1 Header "Organization:http://groups.google.com"
> ?-2 References {.googlegroups.com>$}
>
> which is a 100% reliable way to get rid of any posts entered via GG and
> direct follow-ups.
>
> --
> Membrane

If I've understood correctly you wont be reading this anyway, but why
would you want to dismiss all posts from Google Groups?

[Duncan Smith]

On Jun 2, 11:06 am, Tony Raven > wrote:
> David Hansen wrote on 02/06/2007 11:00 +0100:
>
> > On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:06:34 -0700 someone who may be Richard
> > Fairhurst > wrote this:-
>
> >> Richard Bates is right. If you object to him, learn to use a
> >> newsreader, and killfile him
>
> > AOL. Should someone not wish to read what someone else has typed
> > they can easily ignore them, either automatically or by hand.
>
> > Easy peasy, no need for aggravation.
>
> In theory. But if someone persists in troll wrestling you have the
> choice of either ignoring everything they post, which can be a shame, or
> ignoring a thread which can mean missing valuable non-troll postings
> from others or having to wade through one side of a troll wrestle to get
> to the interesting post. So there is no easy solution. What you really
> need is a filter that works on the first line of the body text to look
> for the troll's name. But I don't know of usenet clients that can do that.
>
> --
> Tony
>
> "The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
> is no good evidence either way."
> - Bertrand Russell

What client do you use? I use Google Groups but am considering trying
a more conventional downloading client and was wondering what the
popular choices are..

The feature you describe shouldn't represent a huge amount of coding
effort, just a little regular expression parsing. If you make a
feature request to the authors of your favorite client they may pick
it up for you in a future version. If you're using an open-source
client then it's even more likely to be considered for inclusion.

Regards,

Duncan

[Simon Brooke]

in message . com>, Duncan
Smith ') wrote:

> If I've understood correctly you wont be reading this anyway, but why
> would you want to dismiss all posts from Google Groups?

There's a perception about the communities which use particular systems. It
used to be a meme that all AOL users were stupid, for example.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Our modern industrial economy takes a mountain covered with trees,
;; lakes, running streams and transforms it into a mountain of junk,
;; garbage, slime pits, and debris. -- Edward Abbey

[Anthony Jones]

Duncan Smith wrote:
> The feature you describe shouldn't represent a huge amount of coding
> effort, just a little regular expression parsing. If you make a
> feature request to the authors of your favorite client they may pick
> it up for you in a future version. If you're using an open-source
> client then it's even more likely to be considered for inclusion.

If the feature you're talking about is checking the message body against a
given regular expression, the problem is that you would have to download
the message body before applying rules. I suspect this is why it's not a
common feature.

Anthony

[Duncan Smith]

On Jun 2, 8:34 pm, Simon Brooke > wrote:
> in message . com>, Duncan
>
> Smith ') wrote:
> > If I've understood correctly you wont be reading this anyway, but why
> > would you want to dismiss all posts from Google Groups?
>
> There's a perception about the communities which use particular systems. It
> used to be a meme that all AOL users were stupid, for example.
>
> --
> (Simon Brooke)http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
> ;; Our modern industrial economy takes a mountain covered with trees,
> ;; lakes, running streams and transforms it into a mountain of junk,
> ;; garbage, slime pits, and debris. -- Edward Abbey

Well talk about sweeping generalizations!... Granted, all AOL users
may be dummies, but GG has some nice features, not least its
centralized nature means I can post from multiple PCs during time at
home/work, yet always view recent threads in a single context from any
PC.

[Tony Raven[_2_]]

Duncan Smith wrote on 02/06/2007 18:18 +0100:
> On Jun 2, 11:06 am, Tony Raven > wrote:
>
> What client do you use? I use Google Groups but am considering trying
> a more conventional downloading client and was wondering what the
> popular choices are..
>

I use Thunderbird. Seeing your subsequent post, you can run it off a
memory stick so that you can move it round between computers if you want.


--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

[Duncan Smith]

On Jun 2, 10:05 pm, Anthony Jones > wrote:
> Duncan Smith wrote:
> > The feature you describe shouldn't represent a huge amount of coding
> > effort, just a little regular expression parsing. If you make a
> > feature request to the authors of your favorite client they may pick
> > it up for you in a future version. If you're using an open-source
> > client then it's even more likely to be considered for inclusion.
>
> If the feature you're talking about is checking the message body against a
> given regular expression, the problem is that you would have to download
> the message body before applying rules. I suspect this is why it's not a
> common feature.
>
> Anthony

Granted, but the latency incurred for downloading a few kilobytes of
text is of minimal overhead when compared to the undesirable UI trait
of populating a thread with an unwanted message. Therefore
downloading a message to conditionally store or discard seems a
reasonable approach.

Regards,

Duncan.

[The other view point, there is one you know...]

On 2 Jun, 11:06, Tony Raven > wrote:
> David Hansen wrote on 02/06/2007 11:00 +0100:
>
> > On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:06:34 -0700 someone who may be Richard
> > Fairhurst > wrote this:-
>
> >> Richard Bates is right. If you object to him, learn to use a
> >> newsreader, and killfile him
>
> > AOL. Should someone not wish to read what someone else has typed
> > they can easily ignore them, either automatically or by hand.
>
> > Easy peasy, no need for aggravation.
>
> In theory. But if someone persists in troll wrestling you have the
> choice of either ignoring everything they post, which can be a shame, or
> ignoring a thread which can mean missing valuable non-troll postings
> from others or having to wade through one side of a troll wrestle to get
> to the interesting post. So there is no easy solution. What you really
> need is a filter that works on the first line of the body text to look
> for the troll's name. But I don't know of usenet clients that can do that.
>
> --
> Tony
>
> "The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
> is no good evidence either way."
> - Bertrand Russell

What are you using for the newsgroups?

I used to use Free-agent, very good it was, you could ignore, delete,
mark as read etc threads or posters.

Sadly I use Google now, don't know of any free news servers i can
use :-(

[Ekul Namsob]

Anthony Jones > wrote:

> Duncan Smith wrote:
> > The feature you describe shouldn't represent a huge amount of coding
> > effort, just a little regular expression parsing. If you make a
> > feature request to the authors of your favorite client they may pick
> > it up for you in a future version. If you're using an open-source
> > client then it's even more likely to be considered for inclusion.
>
> If the feature you're talking about is checking the message body against a
> given regular expression, the problem is that you would have to download
> the message body before applying rules. I suspect this is why it's not a
> common feature.

That's why a better method is to kill-file by subthread. When the
newsreader finds a post from a particular individual it can note the
Message ID and kill all posts containing that Message ID in the
References. I assume that is how MacSOUP does this.

Cheers,
Luke


--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>

[Mark Thompson]

> give it a rest on the holier-than-thou comments.

Please tell me which of my comments that applies to.

[Daniel Barlow]

Roger Merriman wrote:
> Alan Braggins > wrote:
>> How many of those regulars never discuss any other subject? When have
>> you ever seen MattB talk about cycling?
>>
>> He _could_ merely be an off-topic monomaniac who never learns, but for
>> all practical purposes he's effectively a troll.
>
> he seems to want to talk about transport, but not cycling as such.
>
> my feeling is he's a rather stuck record about various transport ideas.

Which is a shame, because some of them, in some circumstances, are
probably quite good ideas - I seem to remember talking about the Naked
Streets stuff before he even arrived here, for example.

What I object to is the frequency with which he has to drag the
discussion offtopic on other unrelated (or at best tangentially related)
threads with his pet ideas, tedious nitpicking and whole range of "Don't
you agree ..." or "Do you think that {strawman}" debating tactics. The
actual validity or otherwise of his points is pretty much irrelevant to
his behaviour. "Troll" would imply he's deliberately doing this to
spoil the newsgroup: this may or may not be the case, but whatever his
intent he's fricking annoying.

ObCycling: new chainring, and the down-tube cable stops for my new gear
levers both arrived yesterday while I was away. Yay! I can finish
putting the wretched thing back together again :-)


-dan

[Peter Clinch]

Tony Raven wrote:
> David Damerell wrote on 02/06/2007 09:37 +0100:
>> Quoting Richard Fairhurst >:
>>> But, on the other hand, I also get thoroughly exasperated with a
>>> couple of seemingly well-respected regulars who appear to have a
>>> kneejerk reaction to the phrases "National Cycle Network" or
>>> "Sustrans",
>>
>> My last experience of Sustrans was that it is slower to ride 20 miles on
>> NCN 1 - a disused railway with railway gradients - with a tailwind, when
>> fresh - that it is to ride 18 miles on the road over the North York Moors
>> - ie, with regular steep ascents up grades up to 1 in 5 - into a headwind
>> with a hangover after four days of debauchery at the Whitby Goth Weekend.
>>
>> How _bad_ does a route have to be for that to be the case? This is hardly
>> a kneejerk.
>
> Try it with a pannier loaded touring bike or a tandem or trailer bike or
> recumbent or trike and see if you can get further than the first barrier.

We did, on the Formartine & Buchn Way, but it was enough of a PITA by
the 3rd or 4th barrier that it provoked groans and worse, comments in
our tour diary and a disgruntled email to Sustrans. We eventually
abandoned it in favour of open roads with a great sensation of /getting
somewhere/.

http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ncn1comments.htm

Of course, if you're a disabled handcyclist you'd have /absolutely no
chance/ without able bodied helpers willing and capable of carrying you
and your trike around the obstacles. I am Not Impressed.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

[Peter Clinch]

Roger Merriman wrote:

> my feeling is he's a rather stuck record about various transport ideas.
> troll, no or at least he's a world away from other trolls

Fair comment, but in as much he's pointless, I've never seen him make a
point which wasn't comprehensively destroyed by someone who appears to
be much better informed and better at analysing information than he is,
and he's very tedious, whatever the semantics of "troll" he's still
earned a place in my kill file.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

[[email protected]]

On 3 Jun, 00:30, Tony Raven > wrote:
> Duncan Smith wrote on 02/06/2007 18:18 +0100:
>
> > On Jun 2, 11:06 am, Tony Raven > wrote:
>
> > What client do you use? I use Google Groups but am considering trying
> > a more conventional downloading client and was wondering what the
> > popular choices are..
>
> I use Thunderbird. Seeing your subsequent post, you can run it off a
> memory stick so that you can move it round between computers if you want.

I work in several different places, one of which goes to extraordinary
lengths to block network use they don't like. I carry portable Opera
on a memory stick, which includes a news client, but it won't work
here (even for browsing). I haven't tried Firefox, but I suspect it
would hit the same problem.

Given some spare time, I could probably figure out the settings to get
Opera working. They block access to all Internet settings on PCs, and
when I've tried to download software to extract settings, they block
access to sites that hold that sort of software. So I'll have to
remember to search for and download it at home and take it in. Doable,
but it just hasn't been a high enough priority.

Even with Opera (or Firefox) working I suspect they don't let the nntp
protocol through their routers at all, so this won't give me a
newsreader.

So, my only access to newsgroups at this site is with (whisper)
internet explorer (spit) to google groups. Elsewhere (and at home) I
use Opera to google groups, to keep a vaguely consistent interface. (I
struggle to use ie these days, it seems to have so much missing.)

Rob

[Andrew Chadwick]

On 2007-06-02 10:06 +0000, Tony Raven wrote:

> [...] if someone persists in troll wrestling you have the choice of
> either ignoring everything they post, which can be a shame, or
> ignoring a thread which can mean missing valuable non-troll postings
> from others or having to wade through one side of a troll wrestle to
> get to the interesting post.

Auto-killing subthreads has been mentioned by other posters, so I won't
go over that again. slrn's killfile scoring works nicely though: it
makes killfiled posts visible in the header pane, which doesn't make
sense until you learn to bounce on the manual mark-subthread-as-read-
and-proceed key. Threads with killfiled posts are shown differently even
when folded up. Troll wrestling, and the essential stupidity of troll
wrestling become nicely obvious and ignorable.

In the rare event that interestingness breaks out on the other side of a
troll wrestle, that becomes obvious too.

--
Andrew Chadwick

[David Damerell]

Quoting Duncan Smith >:
>Well talk about sweeping generalizations!

.... says a Google Groups user, quoting the entire previous article
untrimmed, including signature. Oh, the irony.
--
David Damerell > flcl?
Today is Saturday, June - a weekend.

[Rob Morley]

In article . com>,
says...
<snip>
> Even with Opera (or Firefox) working I suspect they don't let the nntp
> protocol through their routers at all, so this won't give me a
> newsreader.
>
They probably just block the standard ports - run a proxy on your home
machine and access it on port 80. :-)

[[email protected]]

On 5 Jun, 17:59, Rob Morley > wrote:
> In article . com>,
> says...
> <snip>> Even with Opera (or Firefox) working I suspect they don't let the nntp
> > protocol through their routers at all, so this won't give me a
> > newsreader.
>
> They probably just block the standard ports - run a proxy on your home
> machine and access it on port 80. :-)

Thanks for that, pretty sure it would work. In practice it would be a
lot of effort to solve a problem that only affects me 2 days/week, and
I shouldn't spend my time looking at newsgroups. OTOH, when I find a
restriction like that, my reaction is to try and find a way round it.

(It would be a lot of effort because my only current home machine is
my laptop which sometimes goes with me to work, so I'd have to set up
a linux box, which I've been meaning to do for ages, but never get
round to it. Come to think of it, the reason I bought the laptop was
because my monitor died - I have a spare PC, but no monitor -
perfectly suitable for the job, but setting it up would be tricky.)

Rob

[Rob Morley]

In article . com>,
says...
<snip>
> I have a spare PC, but no monitor -
> perfectly suitable for the job, but setting it up would be tricky.)
>
Plenty of free monitors on Freecycle :-)

[Erik Sandblom]

Den 2007-06-04 02:20:38 skrev Daniel Barlow >:

> Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Alan Braggins > wrote:
>>> How many of those regulars never discuss any other subject? When have
>>> you ever seen MattB talk about cycling?
>>>
>>> He _could_ merely be an off-topic monomaniac who never learns, but for
>>> all practical purposes he's effectively a troll.
>> he seems to want to talk about transport, but not cycling as such.
>> my feeling is he's a rather stuck record about various transport ideas.
>
> Which is a shame, because some of them, in some circumstances, are
> probably quite good ideas - I seem to remember talking about the Naked
> Streets stuff before he even arrived here, for example.
>
> What I object to is the frequency with which he has to drag the
> discussion offtopic on other unrelated (or at best tangentially related)
> threads with his pet ideas, tedious nitpicking and whole range of "Don't
> you agree ..." or "Do you think that {strawman}" debating tactics.


I've been an occasional visitor to this group for about a year, and I
enjoy some of Matt's questions because they make me think about why I hold
certain opinions. When forced to explain something very obvious, you get
thinking on a new level, which is a good thing.

I believe that there are no stupid questions, you just need to think up a
good reply. A good reply is one that explains something clearly, and
preferably backs up statements with sources. Some of my best arguments and
sources have been found/formulated while talking to the most intransigent
people.

I don't have a problem with discussing transport issues in this group. The
bicycle is the most environmentally sound form of transport apart from
perhaps sailing and walking. That is a very, very big thing in this day
and age.

Some of the people here are very smart and do a lot of important things
for us cyclists. I can see how these people find it a waste of their time
to talk to Matt. But some of us are content to evangelise just for the
sake of it, and who better to evangelise to than someone who always says
"no".

Erik Sandblom

--
Oil is for sissies

[Daniel Barlow]

Erik Sandblom wrote:
> I believe that there are no stupid questions

Oh? What about this one?


-dan

[Tony Raven[_2_]]

Erik Sandblom wrote on 29/06/2007 00:10 +0100:
>
> Some of the people here are very smart and do a lot of important things
> for us cyclists. I can see how these people find it a waste of their
> time to talk to Matt. But some of us are content to evangelise just for
> the sake of it, and who better to evangelise to than someone who always
> says "no".
>

Well I'm sure you'll enjoy your evangalising with Ed Dolan who seems to
be making one of his occasional forays into this group. Excuse me if I
ignore you doing it.

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell

[Erik Sandblom]

Den 2007-06-29 01:35:27 skrev Daniel Barlow >:

> Erik Sandblom wrote:
>> I believe that there are no stupid questions
>
> Oh? What about this one?


Am I sure there are no stupid questions? That's a good question. Some
questions are hard to make sense of, and in that case it might not be
worth replying. But many questions which at first appear to be stupid can
be put back on the rails -- rephrased, basically -- if you give them some
thought.

I can't think of an example of a rerailed stupid question at the moment,
but I did have an enjoyable argument with Matt B starting January 11th in
this newsgroup [1]. He said motorways are safe, and I replied, not in
comparison with railways. That discussion dredged up some wonderful facts
in support of my argument, facts that I have referred back to several
times since then, in other discussions.

That might have made me unpopular, since the connection to cycling was
tenuous and many consider any discussion with MattB to be troll-wrestling.
I think that cycling and trains together form an unbeatable form of
transport, and trains are a personal interest of mine. As I say a bit
tenuous, and probably tedious to many.

Anyway, my position is that it's okay to respond to a troll if you think
you can make a reasoned and relevant argument.

Saturday Night Live once had a sketch with Bill Clinton making intelligent
replies to stupid questions. Sorry I don't have the specifics.

Erik Sandblom

[1]
http://groups.google.com/group/uk.rec.cycling/browse_thread/thread/4e8c86c1af710b5c/10ef9d43ed692c32


--
Oil is for sissies

[Mark[_2_]]

> Anyway, my position is that it's okay to respond to a troll if you
> think you can make a reasoned and relevant argument.

If troll, don't respond. They don't learn, and don't try to. All they do
is post crap to get a reasoned reply, which makes them feel loved. Email
would be a better place to take discussions with them.