77% safer wearing a fluoro vest?

[cfsmtb[_247_]]

From NZ researchers at the University of Auckland, although I'm inclined
to think there's other factors in place here, over solely concentrating
on donning a magical vest makes you safer on the bike.

Like people who wear safety vests *may have* a propensity to be more
safety conscious, be aware of the road environment and therefore have a
better skills base? And I'm sure many of you have opinions on how data
is suitably collated to attain statistical results.

Anyway, so glad my Goth days were almost two decades ago.

****

Fluorescence reduces cycle crashes, medical needs and time off work. 5
June 2007
http://www.auckland.ac.nz/uoa/about/news/articles/2007/06/cycle.cfm/

Cyclists who do not wear fluorescent clothing are up to eight times
more likely to need time off from work due to a serious accident,
suggests new research.

Researchers at The University of Auckland have conducted a study of
nearly 500 cyclists taking part in the Lake Taupo Cycle Challenge.
Cyclists were surveyed on their cycling habits and accidents within the
previous year. The results showed those cyclists that wore fluorescent
colours when cycling reported less crashes (0.38 vs 0.53 crashes per
cyclist per year), and required less time off work due to accidents
(0.23 vs 0.46 days per cyclist per year).

759 of those cyclists interviewed had suffered at least one accident
whilst cycling in the previous year, an average of 0.5 crashes per
cyclist. Of these, a third of crashes required attention by a health
professional. Accidents whilst cycling resulted in an average of 0.4
days off work per cyclist during the year.

"Low visibility of cyclists is a major contributor to crash related
injury," says Dr Simon Thornley from the School of Population Health.
"Simply by wearing fluorescent clothing, cyclists can markedly increase
their visibility and reduce the likelihood of crashes by 77%."


--
cfsmtb

[eddiec[_6_]]

Ah, but it doesn't specify what type of clothing... Does this mean I can
dust off the flourescent green bike shorts and hot pink socks and inform
my employer that I'll be here more often now? Awesome... :)


--
eddiec

[cfsmtb[_248_]]

eddiec Wrote:
> Ah, but it doesn't specify what type of clothing... Does this mean I can
> dust off the flourescent green bike shorts and hot pink socks and inform
> my employer that I'll be here more often now? Awesome... :)


Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!


--
cfsmtb

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:51:46 +1000
eddiec > wrote:
>
> Ah, but it doesn't specify what type of clothing... Does this mean I can
> dust off the flourescent green bike shorts and hot pink socks and inform
> my employer that I'll be here more often now? Awesome... :)

I suspect you might get more attention in the hot pink shorts and the
green socks.

Of course you'd get a *lot* of attention in the wet white knicks, but
it may cause more crashes as people swerve in horror.

Zebee

[Donga]

On Jun 6, 3:28 pm, Zebee Johnstone > wrote:
> In aus.bicycle on Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:51:46 +1000

> I suspect you might get more attention in the hot pink shorts and the
> green socks.


It might work in your favour in Sydney, but make you a target in
Brisbane. ;-)

Donga

[cfsmtb[_249_]]

Donga Wrote:
>
> It might work in your favour in Sydney, but make you a target in
> Brisbane. ;-)

Sod target practice, can you send down some of that rain down to our
catchments? ;)

BTW - envelope on way to Casa la Donga.


--
cfsmtb

[Terryc]

cfsmtb wrote:
> From NZ researchers at the University of Auckland, although I'm inclined
> to think there's other factors in place here, over solely concentrating
> on donning a magical vest makes you safer on the bike.

Based on my experience of night riding, anything reflective beats any
bicycle light for first to bee seen. Basically, you are using powerful
motor vehicle lights to show yourself up.

Reminds me it is probably time to invest in a new one.

[PiledHigher]

On Jun 6, 9:44 pm, Terryc > wrote:
> cfsmtb wrote:
> > From NZ researchers at the University of Auckland, although I'm inclined
> > to think there's other factors in place here, over solely concentrating
> > on donning a magical vest makes you safer on the bike.
>
> Based on my experience of night riding, anything reflective beats any
> bicycle light for first to bee seen. Basically, you are using powerful
> motor vehicle lights to show yourself up.
>
> Reminds me it is probably time to invest in a new one.

Depends where you are riding, riding down a dark bicycle path with no
front light must be stupid to think that a vest will help.
Unfortunately they don't! Lucky I've got a blinding bicycle lighy see
the stupid farkers.

[cfsmtb[_252_]]

PiledHigher Wrote:
>
> Depends where you are riding, riding down a dark bicycle path with no
> front light must be stupid to think that a vest will help.
> Unfortunately they don't! Lucky I've got a blinding bicycle lighy see
> the stupid farkers.

Witnessed an absolute beauty last night - reverse bike lights on a
major suburban road. Red on the front - white at the back. Now
regardless of whether this individual identifies themselves as a
bicycle rider, cyclist, Pastafarian or the Easter Bunny, don't you want
to believe that *sometimes* people learn by observing the society they
live in? Arrrrrrrrrggggggggg


--
cfsmtb

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on Wed, 06 Jun 2007 21:44:03 +1000
Terryc > wrote:
> cfsmtb wrote:
>> From NZ researchers at the University of Auckland, although I'm inclined
>> to think there's other factors in place here, over solely concentrating
>> on donning a magical vest makes you safer on the bike.
>
> Based on my experience of night riding, anything reflective beats any
> bicycle light for first to bee seen. Basically, you are using powerful
> motor vehicle lights to show yourself up.
>

I'm told the 2" wide reflective stripe on the bright yellow bag on the
back of the 'bent seat is very visible indeed. Day or night :)

Have to find some better reflective tape than the scrap of yellow
hexagon I have now because I want to see if good tape on the ends of
the cranks give the same eye-catching effect on a bent as pedal
reflectors do on an upright.

Zebee

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on Wed, 06 Jun 2007 04:58:10 -0700
PiledHigher > wrote:
>
> Depends where you are riding, riding down a dark bicycle path with no
> front light must be stupid to think that a vest will help.
> Unfortunately they don't! Lucky I've got a blinding bicycle lighy see
> the stupid farkers.
>

Those and the ones who think a couple of feeble flashing green LEDs
are enough.

MInd you, I am more annoyed by the ones whose idea of a front light is
a very bright one aimed at oncoming eyes that flashes once a second.
That's going to help place your distance and speed for sure.

Zebee

[just us]

On my recent tour we were up at 4am to try and get as much riding done while
it was still cool which meant for the first hour of the day we were in
darkness. Both of us had good lights, red flashers, front good led lights
etc. My friend put her rain jackets over her panniers and they reflected -
my bags come with these huge reflective triangles on each one which just
stood out amazingly well.
On one morning a 4 dog long road train passed us after slowing right down
to almost a complete stop. A few kms up the road he was pulled over checking
his truck and said to me "holy sheeet I thought there was a monster bull on
the road!" LOL he rekons he could see my triangles from about 4kms down the
other end of the straight and it scared the crap out of him cos he thought
it was some sort of huge animal. Hmmm wonder what he was on? Anyway, they
had the desired effect -
Kathy

[philipD[_2_]]

Researchers at The University of Auckland have conducted a study of
nearly 500 cyclists taking part in the Lake Taupo Cycle Challenge.

759 of those cyclists interviewed had suffered at least one accident
whilst cycling in the previous year, an average of 0.5 crashes per
cyclist.


I would find it hard to believe any findings, after reading these 2
sentences!


--
philipD

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on Thu, 7 Jun 2007 09:21:21 +1000
philipD > wrote:
>
> Researchers at The University of Auckland have conducted a study of
> nearly 500 cyclists taking part in the Lake Taupo Cycle Challenge.
>
> 759 of those cyclists interviewed had suffered at least one accident
> whilst cycling in the previous year, an average of 0.5 crashes per
> cyclist.
>
>
> I would find it hard to believe any findings, after reading these 2
> sentences!

I think half a crash is better than one!

Zebee

[Evan]

philipD wrote:
> a study of nearly 500 cyclists
>
> 759 of those cyclists interviewed
>

> I would find it hard to believe any findings, after reading these 2
> sentences!
>
>
Original article states 2500 cyclists.

[philipD[_3_]]

Evan Wrote:
> philipD wrote:
> > a study of nearly 500 cyclists
> >
> > 759 of those cyclists interviewed
> >
>
> > I would find it hard to believe any findings, after reading these 2
> > sentences!
> >
> >
> Original article states 2500 cyclists.

That sounds better, not so much of the 'vote early, vote often' about
it.


--
philipD

[Friday]

philipD wrote:
> Researchers at The University of Auckland have conducted a study of
> nearly 500 cyclists taking part in the Lake Taupo Cycle Challenge.
>
> 759 of those cyclists interviewed had suffered at least one accident
> whilst cycling in the previous year, an average of 0.5 crashes per
> cyclist.
>
>
> I would find it hard to believe any findings, after reading these 2
> sentences!
>
>

That must have been a different study to the one reported here. They had
2500 cyclists.

"Low visibility of cyclists is a major contributor to crash related
injury," says Dr Simon Thornley from the School of Population Health.
"Simply by wearing fluorescent clothing, cyclists can markedly increase
their visibility and reduce the likelihood of crashes by 77%."

http://www.auckland.ac.nz/uoa/about/news/articles/2007/06/cycle.cfm

[Friday]

just us wrote:
> On my recent tour we were up at 4am to try and get as much riding done while
> it was still cool which meant for the first hour of the day we were in
> darkness. Both of us had good lights, red flashers, front good led lights
> etc. My friend put her rain jackets over her panniers and they reflected -
> my bags come with these huge reflective triangles on each one which just
> stood out amazingly well.
> On one morning a 4 dog long road train passed us after slowing right down
> to almost a complete stop. A few kms up the road he was pulled over checking
> his truck and said to me "holy sheeet I thought there was a monster bull on
> the road!" LOL he rekons he could see my triangles from about 4kms down the
> other end of the straight and it scared the crap out of him cos he thought
> it was some sort of huge animal. Hmmm wonder what he was on? Anyway, they
> had the desired effect -
> Kathy
>
>

Having nearly run into a herd of cattle that had strayed onto the road
one night I can assure you that monster bulls are not very reflective at
all!

Friday

[Friday]

philipD wrote:
> Evan Wrote:
>> philipD wrote:
>>> a study of nearly 500 cyclists
>>>
>>> 759 of those cyclists interviewed
>>>
>>> I would find it hard to believe any findings, after reading these 2
>>> sentences!
>>>
>>>
>> Original article states 2500 cyclists.
>
> That sounds better, not so much of the 'vote early, vote often' about
> it.
>
>


That's the problem with branch stacking in cycle clubs.

Friday

[Duncan]

On Jun 6, 2:27 pm, cfsmtb <cfsmtb.2rq...@no-
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> "Low visibility of cyclists is a major contributor to crash related
> injury," says Dr Simon Thornley from the School of Population Health.
> "Simply by wearing fluorescent clothing, cyclists can markedly increase
> their visibility and reduce the likelihood of crashes by 77%."

crashing, or being crashed in to?

[Terryc]

just us wrote:

> On one morning a 4 dog long road train passed us after slowing right down
> to almost a complete stop. A few kms up the road he was pulled over checking
> his truck and said to me "holy sheeet I thought there was a monster bull on
> the road!"

Just be tankful he thought it was a monster bull, I know one old truckie
thhat saw a large pink elephant on the road and just drove straight
through it. He then decided that he needed to get into some other line
of work and get off what he was on.

> LOL he rekons he could see my triangles from about 4kms down the
> other end of the straight and it scared the crap out of him cos he thought
> it was some sort of huge animal.

Hmm, I thought cattle had red eyes in the spotlight.

[EuanB[_80_]]

Terryc Wrote:
> cfsmtb wrote:
> > From NZ researchers at the University of Auckland, although I'm
> inclined
> > to think there's other factors in place here, over solely
> concentrating
> > on donning a magical vest makes you safer on the bike.
>
> Based on my experience of night riding, anything reflective beats any
> bicycle light for first to bee seen. Basically, you are using powerful
> motor vehicle lights to show yourself up.
I like to be seen way before headlights light me up, gives other road
users more chance to take the correct course of action. My rathe
modest setup can be seen from over half a kilometer away.


--
EuanB

[Darryl C]

In article >,
Zebee Johnstone > wrote:

> In aus.bicycle on Thu, 7 Jun 2007 09:21:21 +1000
> philipD > wrote:
> >
> > Researchers at The University of Auckland have conducted a study of
> > nearly 500 cyclists taking part in the Lake Taupo Cycle Challenge.
> >
> > 759 of those cyclists interviewed had suffered at least one accident
> > whilst cycling in the previous year, an average of 0.5 crashes per
> > cyclist.
> >
> >
> > I would find it hard to believe any findings, after reading these 2
> > sentences!
>
> I think half a crash is better than one!
>
> Zebee

Especially if it is the first half 'cause that usually doesn't hurt as
much as the second half.

cheers,
Darryl

[Terryc]

EuanB wrote:
> Terryc Wrote:
>
>>cfsmtb wrote:
>>
>>>From NZ researchers at the University of Auckland, although I'm
>>
>>inclined
>>
>>>to think there's other factors in place here, over solely
>>
>>concentrating
>>
>>>on donning a magical vest makes you safer on the bike.
>>
>>Based on my experience of night riding, anything reflective beats any
>>bicycle light for first to bee seen. Basically, you are using powerful
>>motor vehicle lights to show yourself up.
>
> I like to be seen way before headlights light me up, gives other road
> users more chance to take the correct course of action. My rathe
> modest setup can be seen from over half a kilometer away.

It was based on observations from a series of slides I took on a night
bicycle ride years ago.

The flash was picking up reflectors well before the film showed bicycle
light and I was later able to confirm that a similar pattern occurs to
car drivers[1]. Reflectors help car drivers make more sense of what was
going on.

First, you can see a faint, wobbly light, then car lights pick up
reflectors, which, if you are wearing enough in the right places will
instantly bing with the non-brain dead driver that they have a bicycle
rider ahead.

These days, with lots of road workers, drivers, etc in reflective vests,
surely driver brains twigg that someone is ahead and they need to take
greater car.

[Tomasso]

"Zebee Johnstone" > wrote in message ...
> In aus.bicycle on Wed, 06 Jun 2007 21:44:03 +1000
> Terryc > wrote:
>> cfsmtb wrote:
>>> From NZ researchers at the University of Auckland, although I'm inclined
>>> to think there's other factors in place here, over solely concentrating
>>> on donning a magical vest makes you safer on the bike.
>>
>> Based on my experience of night riding, anything reflective beats any
>> bicycle light for first to bee seen. Basically, you are using powerful
>> motor vehicle lights to show yourself up.
>>
>
> I'm told the 2" wide reflective stripe on the bright yellow bag on the
> back of the 'bent seat is very visible indeed. Day or night :)
>
> Have to find some better reflective tape than the scrap of yellow
> hexagon I have now because I want to see if good tape on the ends of
> the cranks give the same eye-catching effect on a bent as pedal
> reflectors do on an upright.
>
> Zebee

Pedal reflectors = OK. Years ago I put good reflective tape on the crank (three sides).
Interesting to observe at night from a car (with lights). Side view and rear view.

On a recumbent for rear view to get something noticeable and dynamic, you could
mount your rear light on a flexible stick attached to your helment so it flopped
left and right. :-(. Many recumbents have flags, so some flashing LEDs on the
flag pole makes sense.

Tom

[Tomasso]

"Terryc" > wrote in message
...
> EuanB wrote:
>> Terryc Wrote:
>>>cfsmtb wrote:
>>>
>>>>From NZ researchers at the University of Auckland, although I'm
>>>
>>>inclined
>>>
>>>>to think there's other factors in place here, over solely
>>>
>>>concentrating
>>>
>>>>on donning a magical vest makes you safer on the bike.
>>>
>>>Based on my experience of night riding, anything reflective beats any
>>>bicycle light for first to bee seen. Basically, you are using powerful
>>>motor vehicle lights to show yourself up.
>>
>> I like to be seen way before headlights light me up, gives other road
>> users more chance to take the correct course of action. My rathe
>> modest setup can be seen from over half a kilometer away.
>
> It was based on observations from a series of slides I took on a night bicycle ride years ago.
>
> The flash was picking up reflectors well before the film showed bicycle light and I was later able to confirm that a similar
> pattern occurs to car drivers[1]. Reflectors help car drivers make more sense of what was going on.
>
> First, you can see a faint, wobbly light, then car lights pick up reflectors, which, if you are wearing enough in the right places
> will instantly bing with the non-brain dead driver that they have a bicycle rider ahead.
>
> These days, with lots of road workers, drivers, etc in reflective vests, surely driver brains twigg that someone is ahead and they
> need to take greater car.

Amusing typo: "greater car"! That describes the problem.

Tom.

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on Thu, 7 Jun 2007 18:56:03 +1000
Tomasso > wrote:
> On a recumbent for rear view to get something noticeable and dynamic, you could
> mount your rear light on a flexible stick attached to your helment so it flopped
> left and right. :-(. Many recumbents have flags, so some flashing LEDs on the
> flag pole makes sense.
>

I have plenty of red flashing lights on the thing, it's the motion of pedals
that is a) eyecatching at a distance and b) distinctive.

I'm going to put a bit of tape on the rims, figure that might help
from the rear and front quarters.

Just a matter of getting some Serious reflective tape.

Zebee

[Joel Mayes]

On 2007-06-07, Zebee Johnstone > wrote:
> In aus.bicycle on Thu, 7 Jun 2007 18:56:03 +1000
> Tomasso > wrote:
>> On a recumbent for rear view to get something noticeable and dynamic, you could
>> mount your rear light on a flexible stick attached to your helment so it flopped
>> left and right. :-(. Many recumbents have flags, so some flashing LEDs on the
>> flag pole makes sense.
>>
>
> I have plenty of red flashing lights on the thing, it's the motion of pedals
> that is a) eyecatching at a distance and b) distinctive.
>
> I'm going to put a bit of tape on the rims, figure that might help
> from the rear and front quarters.

I've got reflective tape stuck around the edges of the flags on my
trailer and load carring bike. It really catches the eye.

> Just a matter of getting some Serious reflective tape.
>
> Zebee

In Melbourne? Come down to Human Powered Cycles we've got a fair number
of reflective tape cut-offs in various odd shapes leftover from a run of
relective stickers we had made up recently.

Cheers

Joel
--
Human Powered Cycles | High quality servicing and repairs
| Affordable second hand bikes
(03) 9029 6504 | Bicycle reuse centre
www.humanpowered.com.au | Mechanical and on-road training and instruction

[cfsmtb[_257_]]

Joel Mayes Wrote:
>
> In Melbourne? Come down to Human Powered Cycles we've got a fair
> number
> of reflective tape cut-offs in various odd shapes leftover from a run
> of
> relective stickers we had made up recently.

Not trying to take away potential business or anything, but does
Abbotsford Cycle still have a couple of boxes of SideLights hanging
around? Those things seriously rock. ;)


--
cfsmtb

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on 07 Jun 2007 11:19:31 GMT
Joel Mayes > wrote:
>
> In Melbourne? Come down to Human Powered Cycles we've got a fair number
> of reflective tape cut-offs in various odd shapes leftover from a run of
> relective stickers we had made up recently.

In Sydney.

I'm told there's such a thing as marine grade tape that is very
reflective and very waterproof.


Zebee

[flyingdutch[_53_]]

aren't 'statistics' marvellous?!

'accidents'. Doesn't state what kind of accident. If i wear fluoro am i
less likely to fall off my bike???
(actually, probably 'yes'. <generalisation> cos all the fluoro wearers
i see ride so slow :rolleyes: </generalisation>)

Follwing the odds if i am wearing fluoro I'm more likley to be a (van)
courier or construction worker than a cyclist, therefore my likelihood
of crashing is also reduced. (actually scrub the van courier from that
:rolleyes: ...)


--
flyingdutch

[Joel Mayes]

On 2007-06-07, cfsmtb > wrote:
>
> Joel Mayes Wrote:
>>
>> In Melbourne? Come down to Human Powered Cycles we've got a fair
>> number
>> of reflective tape cut-offs in various odd shapes leftover from a run
>> of
>> relective stickers we had made up recently.
>
> Not trying to take away potential business or anything, but does
> Abbotsford Cycle still have a couple of boxes of SideLights hanging
> around? Those things seriously rock. ;)

They do, about $10 a box from memory. They're seriously good reflectors
too.

Cheers

Joel

--
Human Powered Cycles | High quality servicing and repairs
| Affordable second hand bikes
(03) 9029 6504 | Bicycle reuse centre
www.humanpowered.com.au | Mechanical and on-road training and instruction

[Theo Bekkers]

philipD wrote:

> Researchers at The University of Auckland have conducted a study of
> nearly 500 cyclists taking part in the Lake Taupo Cycle Challenge.
>
> 759 of those cyclists interviewed had suffered at least one accident
> whilst cycling in the previous year, an average of 0.5 crashes per
> cyclist.
>
>
> I would find it hard to believe any findings, after reading these 2
> sentences!

My reading off the above sentences says to me that someone, other than the
researchers, a typist maybe, left off a 1 in front of the 500. You may feel
free to dismiss the entire research for that single mistype, if you wish.

Theo

[Theo Bekkers]

Friday wrote:

> Having nearly run into a herd of cattle that had strayed onto the road
> one night I can assure you that monster bulls are not very reflective
> at all!

I'm still trying to figure out the 'triangle'. Bull with raised tail?

Theo

[Theo Bekkers]

Zebee Johnstone wrote:

> I'm going to put a bit of tape on the rims, figure that might help
> from the rear and front quarters.
>
> Just a matter of getting some Serious reflective tape.

Hi Zebee,
I've got some silver Serious reflective tape I rescued from being thrown out
many years ago. It was used on a paper tape reader to reflect a motion
sensor on a punched paper tape reader which read tape at 60" per second.
(Needed some pretty serious servo controls too to stop it making confetti of
the paper tape). I've used it for several things and it is sticky backed,
but not terribly flexible, and not that sticky, as it needed to be removable
for replacement. I've probably got 30-50 metres left. Want me to send you
some to try?

Theo

[Darryl C]

In article >,
Zebee Johnstone > wrote:

> In aus.bicycle on 07 Jun 2007 11:19:31 GMT
> Joel Mayes > wrote:
> >
> > In Melbourne? Come down to Human Powered Cycles we've got a fair number
> > of reflective tape cut-offs in various odd shapes leftover from a run of
> > relective stickers we had made up recently.
>
> In Sydney.
>
> I'm told there's such a thing as marine grade tape that is very
> reflective and very waterproof.
>
>
> Zebee


Zebee,

The marine stuff is called SOLAS. Google that for lots of links.

The two biggest suppliers of reflective tape are 3M and Reflexite:
(apologies for the long link)
<http://products3.3m.com/catalog/au/en005/safety/personal_safety/node_GSQ
TVVFQH6be/root_D58K9TX3VWgv/vroot_5NWF0CSQNGge/gvel_M6XMN0FD4Bgl/theme_au
_safetypersonalsafety_3_0/command_AbcPageHandler/output_html>

<http://www.reflexite.com.au/index_office.php>

Whitworths chandlery on Victoria Rd (Drummoyne?) will stock SOLAS tape
but it is widely available.

I think you could also consider reflective paint, as used in road
marking, or glow in the dark paint:
<http://www.whiteknightpaints.com.au/paint-effects>

cheers,
Darryl

[dewatf]

On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 14:27:54 +1000, cfsmtb wrote:

> From NZ researchers at the University of Auckland, although I'm inclined
> to think there's other factors in place here, over solely concentrating
> on donning a magical vest makes you safer on the bike.
>
> Like people who wear safety vests *may have* a propensity to be more
> safety conscious, be aware of the road environment and therefore have a
> better skills base? And I'm sure many of you have opinions on how data
> is suitably collated to attain statistical results.

There is proabably some effect that cyclics in fluoro are likely to be both
more experienced and saftey conscious. You could adjust for that by trying
to measure that and take matched samples.

But fluoro definitely does make a difference in visibility. I was driving
up the road the other day and some workmen were walking across the road.
The guys in fluoro orange work shirts a couple of hundred meters up the
road were much easier to see and judge the distance of than two blokes in
street cloths against a dark road who were much closer to me.

dewatf.

[Terryc]

dewatf wrote:

> But fluoro definitely does make a difference in visibility.

Unless you are in a warehouse where everything is covered in fluro.

[TimC]

On 2007-06-08, Terryc (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> dewatf wrote:
>
>> But fluoro definitely does make a difference in visibility.
>
> Unless you are in a warehouse where everything is covered in fluro.

And then they all look like a box of oranges.

--
TimC
Hell - n. The current residence of Mr. Noah Webster, Lexicographer.
(Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_)

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on Fri, 08 Jun 2007 08:46:14 GMT
dewatf > wrote:
>
> But fluoro definitely does make a difference in visibility. I was driving

I think it does, but what is the effect on behaviour?

When it comes to road safety, we use the word "see" to mean three
different things. Sometimes all three at once, sometimes only one or
two.

There's the physical "see". The lightwaves bouncing off the object
and hitting someone's retina[1]. A bicycle might not be seen because
of something in the way, or because a driver's not looking in that
direction. No amount of flouro helps there. IF someone says "I
didn't see" maybe they didn't... Consider modern car design with
wide front pillars, or 4WDs with poor vision close up.

There's the mental "see". THe person physically sees the object, but
do they then process that information to the point of consciously
knowing it is there? Drivers have a lot of visual pollution to
contend with and so quickly develop methods of coping. They quickly
learn to tune out things on footpaths or house verandahs and
billboards.

I think most people tune out everything but what they
have decided to tune in. Advertisers know this, it's why they try
hard to make eye-catching ads, to trigger exception processing, to
make someone's visual processor say "hey! Consciousness! Something
unusual here, check it out!"

(I find the bent is seen by drivers quite easily. It's unusual so
triggers exception processing. Someone will remember seeing me but
forget seeing pretty well every upright on that trip...)

The difficulty with exception processing is that it doesn't always happen.
If someone is concentrating on a particular task then an exception has
to be pretty bloody exceptional to be noticed.

There's a fairly well known experiment where people watched a film of a
basketball match and were asked to count various player actions. So they
were concentrating on that. In the middle of the game a bod dressed in
a gorilla suit walked through the court. At the end of the experiment,
a large percentage of the people couldn't remember the guy in the suit
and were amazed when shown the footage. Exception processing had failed.

Flouro's job is exception processing: to catch the eye, and to have
that visual processor alert the consciousness to something unusual.
Of course when everyone's using it, it isn't unusual anymore... At that
point you hope that it's still passed onto the conciousness but no longer
an exception, but a standard "you need to know this" like a police car.

Which brings us to the third use of "see" which isn't as obvious as
the other two. They've seen you, they've noticed you, but what then?
What do they do about it?

Driver sees and notices cyclist. Does driver much care? Do they see
and notice, then forget, then turn across? Do they see and notice but
pay very little attention so don't realise the speed the cyclist is
doing and turn across? Do they see and notice but figure it's the
cyclist's job to give way and turn across? Do they see and notice but
have no idea of safe passing? No idea of how a cyclist will act? See
and notice but consider it unimportant compared to other traffic?

Amongst motorcyclists it is well known that if you ride an ex-police
BMW bike you are very visible indeed. Or if you ride about looking like
if they cut you off you'll rip their head off and spit down their neck.
Both styles of motorcycle/rider get passed up to the consciousness from
the visual processer very quickly indeed and then the behaviour is "keep
an eye on that one, it's as dangerous[2] as a large truck with a deadline".

What behaviour does flouro elicit, if someone does process a flouro
jacket, then what do they do about it? Obviously going to depend on
how they think about whatever they perceive the flouro wearer is.
Ask a roadworker....

I hope that as time goes on it will get regularly processed, not
exception processed. So people will look for it, expect to see it,
and process it accordingly. Cyclists should probably work out a
cyclist-specific kind so that they don't get classed as peds in the
overworked motorist brain.

Not sure how though, cyclists don't usually use sleeves or long pants,
so can't use those as a marker, maybe use a vest that is all flouro
rather than stripes or just the chest/shoulders? Something that is
different to roadworkers and van drivers.

And in an ideal world the sight of "cyclist" would trigger good
behaviour the way sight of "police motorcycle" does...

Zebee

[1] ouch!

[1] BMW riders report that drivers change behaviour on spotting the 'cop
bike'. They slow down. I've experienced this myself from the other side:
I rode to Canberra along back roads with someone on an ex-cop bike and
*every* time I checked the mirror I reflexively rolled off the throttle.
I got him to take the lead as it was doing my head in...

[TimC]

On 2007-06-08, Zebee Johnstone (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> Which brings us to the third use of "see" which isn't as obvious as
> the other two. They've seen you, they've noticed you, but what then?
> What do they do about it?

In the case of a dunnydoor driver in this town last week, knock the
two cyclists over that she had just slowed down for. Didn't quite
allow enough room when overtaking. Woops.

--
TimC
Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.
-- Hamilcar Barca in comp.os.linux.advocacy

[dewatf]

On 8 Jun 2007 21:05:31 GMT, Zebee Johnstone wrote:

> In aus.bicycle on Fri, 08 Jun 2007 08:46:14 GMT
> dewatf > wrote:
>>
>> But fluoro definitely does make a difference in visibility. I was driving
>
> I think it does, but what is the effect on behaviour?

[snip]

Firstly fluoro is more visible. Fluorescent yellow-green is the frequency
of light that the eye is most sensive to. Fluorescent orange the second
most. I choose fluorescent orange because there are a lot of trees around
where I live and the contrast is better (in a desert I would wear
yellow-green).

As to exception processing fluorescent colours are more exceptional, till
everyone starts wearing them. In the basketball experiment people are asked
to to count the number of passes between basketball players of a
distinctive colour and appearance, and the brain filters out the rest. When
driving drivers are concerntrating at looking out for other moving objects
on the road -- the more visible the moving object the better. Sure if you
trained then to watch out for trees on the side of the road it would less
effective, but over time natural selection would weed out those drivers.

Even in a warehouse fluro is more visable because most of the warehouse is
brown. When I was working on a computerised warehouse system the forklift
drivers insisted I wear a fluoro orange shirt because I had no "warehouse
sense". It was SPF 50, a breathable polyester mesh and made a good cycling
shirt.

As to driver behaviour. Virtually all drivers take care to avoid running
over what they see, most accidents are not deliberate but involves things
not seen. The others you can't do much about but there is no advantage in
camoflaging yourself to the majority of good drivers. The idea that all
drivers are the natural enemy of cyclists are trying to kill you is
nonsense. Those people are special sorts of arseholes.

And to restore reality. Tonight while walking from work in a storm (have
dodged the worst of by stopping for a pint of amber ale in the Lansdown) I
saw two cyclists riding up Shepard St in black raincoats with no lights in
the middle of storm and one in a fluro yellow rain jacket with reflector
tape lit up like a Christmas tree. It was not hard to figure out who will
live longest.

Though the award for stupidist person of the evening goes to pedestrian
under an umbrella who decided to stand in the left lane of Abercromie St
while waiting for the lights, because there were only cars in the centre
lane at the time. I had to physically grab him and pull him backwards onto
the kerb to avoid him getting flattened by the idiot trying to scoot up the
left in a gap between parked cars and cut back into traffic in poor
visibility at 70+ km/h.

The pedestrian did say thank you, the cyclist I said "lights, lights would
be good here" to told me to **** off.

dewatf.