Bikes for 'tweens?

[Luigi de Guzman]

My baby brother, age 12, wants a new bike.

He's 4' 10"--we would reasonably expect that he'd be riding a bike with
24" wheels. But I'm hesitant to buy any of the 24"-wheeled bikes on the
market. I don't much like the idea of suspension forks on something that
will certainly never see conditions that merit suspension. My brother's
last bike, with 20" wheels, was a make-believe dual-sus setup which
creaked like nobody's business.

Being the family bike guy, I've been tasked to find a suitable bike for
not a lot of money. The bike will likely see very very light use indeed,
and probably not be used for more than a year, maybe two at most.

I'm leaning towards getting him a freestyle BMX frame and letting him have
at it. Any thoughts?

--
Luigi de Guzman
http://ouij.livejournal.com

[[email protected]]

On Jun 20, 7:36 am, Luigi de Guzman > wrote:
> My baby brother, age 12, wants a new bike.
>
> He's 4' 10"--we would reasonably expect that he'd be riding a bike with
> 24" wheels. But I'm hesitant to buy any of the 24"-wheeled bikes on the
> market. I don't much like the idea of suspension forks on something that
> will certainly never see conditions that merit suspension. My brother's
> last bike, with 20" wheels, was a make-believe dual-sus setup which
> creaked like nobody's business.
>
> Being the family bike guy, I've been tasked to find a suitable bike for
> not a lot of money. The bike will likely see very very light use indeed,
> and probably not be used for more than a year, maybe two at most.
>
> I'm leaning towards getting him a freestyle BMX frame and letting him have
> at it. Any thoughts?

Lou, you could probably find a children's road bike if you looked hard
enough. Ask at some local old-time bike shops or ask on Craigslist.
Back in the 60's they used to make 24" real road bikes. Where do you
live?

[Claire Petersky]

"Luigi de Guzman" > wrote in message
...
> My baby brother, age 12, wants a new bike.

Ach, this is really hard. My 12 year old wants to replace her bike, too.
She's completely outgrown her kiddie one. At 5'4", she may still have some
growing yet, and I hate to sink $$ into a bike that we'd have to replace in
a couple of years.

What we're doing for now is stalling; I want to find out really what kind of
riding she wants to do for the next few years. Probably some sort of hybrid
would suit her best.


--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

PS, good to see you back, Luigi.

[Zoot Katz]

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 20:00:26 GMT, "Claire Petersky"
> wrote:

>"Luigi de Guzman" > wrote in message
...
>> My baby brother, age 12, wants a new bike.
>
>Ach, this is really hard. My 12 year old wants to replace her bike, too.
>She's completely outgrown her kiddie one. At 5'4", she may still have some
>growing yet, and I hate to sink $$ into a bike that we'd have to replace in
>a couple of years.
>
>What we're doing for now is stalling; I want to find out really what kind of
>riding she wants to do for the next few years. Probably some sort of hybrid
>would suit her best.

Too bad Target doesn't stock the 24" Denali road bike in their stores
so you could go kick the tires.

For $150, it should last two years.
http://www.amazon.com/GMC-Denali-Girls-24-Inch-Road/dp/B000GU2UAC

With a few upgrades, it might make a nice machine for a small adult.
--
zk

[Luigi de Guzman]

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 09:46:31 -0700, cyclintom wrote:

>
> Lou, you could probably find a children's road bike if you looked hard
> enough. Ask at some local old-time bike shops or ask on Craigslist.
> Back in the 60's they used to make 24" real road bikes. Where do you
> live?

Northern Virginia, outside of Washington, DC. I've seen 24" roadies, and
they're SUPER rare. It's probably not the right type of bike for him,
anyway. The folks don't let him ride too far--don't really let him do
anything, actually*--so I'd really just be looking for something with 24"
wheels and no crummy suspension.

I wish I could get him something like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ouij/254599421/


a kid-sized (24" wheels?) version of the Raleigh DL-1 roadster, which I
found rather securely locked to an iron fence near a Cambridge primary
school.

I imagine this is the age where a lot of kids just quit riding bikes
altogether. *sigh*.

-Luigi

--
Luigi de Guzman
http://ouij.livejournal.com

[Zoot Katz]

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 14:36:59 GMT, Luigi de Guzman
> wrote:

>Any thoughts?

I imagine he'll be using it mostly for getting around the
neighbourhood to socialise so get him what _he_ wants.

Having a bike like his friends' bikes means there's a better chance
that he'll ride it. If his buddies are into doing stunts on their BMX
free style bikes, that's what he'll want to ride too. If they're
screwing around on cheap boingers, he needs one too. If his buddies
have heavy crappy choppers, that's the bike for him too.

None are likely to catastrophically fail if it's assembled properly.

Many of the Asian market granny bikes are built with 24" X 1 3/8"
wheels. They'd be a better utility bike except granny bikes aren't
cool with pubescent boys and they're rare in the N.A. market.

Cheap 24" road bikes can be had cheaply. (<$200) With some proper
care and attention one of those should last two years.
--
zk

[Paul Myron Hobson]

Zoot Katz wrote:
> Many of the Asian market granny bikes are built with 24" X 1 3/8"
> wheels. They'd be a better utility bike except granny bikes aren't
> cool with pubescent boys and they're rare in the N.A. market.

When I was in fifth grade, I outgrew my BMX bike and wanted a mountain
bike like my sister's. My parent's, bless their hearts, ended up
getting me what amounted to a too large granny bike with curvy (NOT
COOL!) handlebars.

I was so embarrassed and *ashamed* to be embarrassed. It was perfectly
good bike, but just not what I wanted. One time, by some sort of
miracle, I was coming home just as my mom was checking the mail (one of
the 5 times I might had ridden it). The asshole 6th-grade neighbor
screamed, "Hey, nice girl bike SISSY!"

I didn't have to do any explaining after that. We went to K-mart and
got the coolest red Huffy mountain bike. I rode that thing into the
ground.

\\paul

[Luigi de Guzman]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 15:10:04 -0400, Paul Myron Hobson wrote:

> Zoot Katz wrote:
>> Many of the Asian market granny bikes are built with 24" X 1 3/8"
>> wheels. They'd be a better utility bike except granny bikes aren't
>> cool with pubescent boys and they're rare in the N.A. market.
>
> When I was in fifth grade, I outgrew my BMX bike and wanted a mountain
> bike like my sister's. My parent's, bless their hearts, ended up
> getting me what amounted to a too large granny bike with curvy (NOT
> COOL!) handlebars.
>
> I was so embarrassed and *ashamed* to be embarrassed. It was perfectly
> good bike, but just not what I wanted. One time, by some sort of
> miracle, I was coming home just as my mom was checking the mail (one of
> the 5 times I might had ridden it). The asshole 6th-grade neighbor
> screamed, "Hey, nice girl bike SISSY!"
>
> I didn't have to do any explaining after that. We went to K-mart and
> got the coolest red Huffy mountain bike. I rode that thing into the
> ground.

I had a black Huffy 24" mountain bike that has since rusted away into
oblivion that I wish I could have given my brother. Sigh.

I just don't like boingers, is all.

The worst part is that my baby brother is much less free to ride than I
myself was. The folks barely let him get to the edge of the street. I
used to get on my bike and explore. I'd stop when I felt I was getting
too far out of my element--main highways, for instance--but otherwise, I
was free to roam, even if none of the other neighborhood kids rode with me.

I'm 26. My brothers are 17 and 12. I pity them, but there's no talking
the folks into letting them roam on bikes. When I'm with them, and try to
teach them to ride on the street effectively, I get an earful for exposing
them to unnecessary risk.

What the hell happened in the years between my 24" black huffy and now?
*sigh*

-Luigi

>
> \\paul



--
Luigi de Guzman
http://ouij.livejournal.com

[Claire Petersky]

"Luigi de Guzman" > wrote in message
...
>
> The worst part is that my baby brother is much less free to ride than I
> myself was. The folks barely let him get to the edge of the street. I
> used to get on my bike and explore. I'd stop when I felt I was getting
> too far out of my element--main highways, for instance--but otherwise, I
> was free to roam, even if none of the other neighborhood kids rode with
> me.
>
> I'm 26. My brothers are 17 and 12. I pity them, but there's no talking
> the folks into letting them roam on bikes. When I'm with them, and try to
> teach them to ride on the street effectively, I get an earful for exposing
> them to unnecessary risk.
>
> What the hell happened in the years between my 24" black huffy and now?
> *sigh*


You might be interested in this article, here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=462091&in_page_id=1770

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article >,
Zoot Katz > wrote:

> On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 20:00:26 GMT, "Claire Petersky"
> > wrote:
>
> >"Luigi de Guzman" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> My baby brother, age 12, wants a new bike.
> >
> >Ach, this is really hard. My 12 year old wants to replace her bike, too.
> >She's completely outgrown her kiddie one. At 5'4", she may still have some
> >growing yet, and I hate to sink $$ into a bike that we'd have to replace in
> >a couple of years.
> >
> >What we're doing for now is stalling; I want to find out really what kind of
> >riding she wants to do for the next few years. Probably some sort of hybrid
> >would suit her best.
>
> Too bad Target doesn't stock the 24" Denali road bike in their stores
> so you could go kick the tires.
>
> For $150, it should last two years.
> http://www.amazon.com/GMC-Denali-Girls-24-Inch-Road/dp/B000GU2UAC
>
> With a few upgrades, it might make a nice machine for a small adult.

Upgrades shmupgrades. I'd ride that right now. There's a boy version
too, which I would recommend for all children aside from the most
stubborn girls.

In a similar situation with a young girl, the father and I built a 20"
cyclocross bike from the starting point of a 20" MTB with a boingy fork.
This photoset details the process exquisitely:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ttcopley/sets/72157594551105230/

For most kids, less obsessed with having a road bike just like their
hero Mandy Poitras, I'd suggest the simplicity and cheapness of a
flat-bar setup. The usual source for rigid 20" and 24" forks is the BMX
ranks; I'd just recommend a nice 24" Redline cruiser frame as the
starting point straight up, except that 24" MTBs are usually cheaper.

For lots of other kids, BMX things offer a great all-round experience. I
also built up a BMX with a 7-speed MTB drivetrain, which was pretty fun,
and would have been even better if it fit me.

But 5'4"? She should be able to ride a smaller MTB no problem. If so,
the solution is to round up the smallest old sloping-top-tube
rigid-forked MTB you can find. It is garage sale season in your nation's
capital, no?

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[Luigi de Guzman]

On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 02:48:26 +0000, Ryan Cousineau wrote:


>>
>> For $150, it should last two years.
>> http://www.amazon.com/GMC-Denali-Girls-24-Inch-Road/dp/B000GU2UAC
>>
>> With a few upgrades, it might make a nice machine for a small adult.
>
> Upgrades shmupgrades. I'd ride that right now. There's a boy version
> too, which I would recommend for all children aside from the most
> stubborn girls.

It is pretty neat looking. I might see if it's available locally, and
whether the boy digs it.

>
> In a similar situation with a young girl, the father and I built a 20"
> cyclocross bike from the starting point of a 20" MTB with a boingy fork.
> This photoset details the process exquisitely:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/ttcopley/sets/72157594551105230/
>
>
I may be slain by a surfeit of cuteness. Also coolness. You guys are
awesome.

I think maybe even The Fab One would have been pleased.


> For most kids, less obsessed with having a road bike just like their
> hero Mandy Poitras, I'd suggest the simplicity and cheapness of a
> flat-bar setup. The usual source for rigid 20" and 24" forks is the BMX
> ranks; I'd just recommend a nice 24" Redline cruiser frame as the
> starting point straight up, except that 24" MTBs are usually cheaper.

build-from-frame might not really be an option here, given the budget. 24"
BMX would be perfect--but I haven't seen one of those around here. 20"
BMX would also be nice--but I worry that it'll be too small to ride
"normally".




--
Luigi de Guzman
http://ouij.livejournal.com

[Luigi de Guzman]

On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 00:51:44 +0000, Claire Petersky wrote:


> You might be interested in this article, here:
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=462091&in_page_id=1770
>
>
I read that last week and felt really quite sad.

I wonder, though: what is it about us these days that makes risk so
unacceptable? My parents and grandparents lived in bigger, nastier,
scarier worlds. My grandfather was the only survivor of ten children--all
his other siblings perished in a typhoid epidemic, which eventually drove
his mother (my great-grandmother) insane. My father grew up in a rough
neighborhood in postwar Manila, running around and playing in the street.

By almost any measure, life for their generations was much more nasty,
brutish, and short than it is for mine. My brothers and I are safer than
they ever were--and yet they live in almost constant fear. Why?




--
Luigi de Guzman
http://ouij.livejournal.com

[toypup]

On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 04:30:45 GMT, Luigi de Guzman wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 00:51:44 +0000, Claire Petersky wrote:
>
>
>> You might be interested in this article, here:
>>
>> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=462091&in_page_id=1770
>>
>>
> I read that last week and felt really quite sad.
>
> I wonder, though: what is it about us these days that makes risk so
> unacceptable?

It is relative risk. People will focus on reducing the greater risk. When
the risk of dying at a young age from illness or whatnot is so high, no one
cares about the risk of dying on a bike, because that risk is comparatively
low. When the risk of dying from illness is low, then the risk of dying on
a bike become relatively greater. Bike helmets and other safety measures
become a necessity.

The more one worries about day to day survival, the less concerned one is
about bike helmets, air bags, seat belts, car seats, sanitation,
cholesterol, etc.

[Donna Metler]

"toypup" > wrote in message
.. .
> On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 04:30:45 GMT, Luigi de Guzman wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 00:51:44 +0000, Claire Petersky wrote:
> >
> >
> >> You might be interested in this article, here:
> >>
> >>
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=462091&in_page_id=1770
> >>
> >>
> > I read that last week and felt really quite sad.
> >
> > I wonder, though: what is it about us these days that makes risk so
> > unacceptable?
>
> It is relative risk. People will focus on reducing the greater risk.
When
> the risk of dying at a young age from illness or whatnot is so high, no
one
> cares about the risk of dying on a bike, because that risk is
comparatively
> low. When the risk of dying from illness is low, then the risk of dying
on
> a bike become relatively greater. Bike helmets and other safety measures
> become a necessity.
>
> The more one worries about day to day survival, the less concerned one is
> about bike helmets, air bags, seat belts, car seats, sanitation,
> cholesterol, etc.

And I think part of it is advance guilt. You can't control your child dying
in a typhoid epidemic. You can, however, prevent your child from riding a
bicycle on streets with cars on them. Not letting your child take risks
means that you're not taking the risk of something happening to your child
that YOU feel responsible for (and that you'll be blamed for by everyone
around you). It is no longer expected that many families will lose a child
at some point.

One thing we discussed at length in my pregnancy loss group was the "too
precious" child-that it is very typical for families who have lost a baby to
overdo it with their living child and to shelter that child too much, overdo
it on material posessions, and in general treat the child like a hothouse
flower, with similar results. I see much the same fear, though, in families
who haven't had a loss of a child now because of the very slim possibility
that their child will be taken from them.

[Rosalie B.]

"Donna Metler" > wrote:
>
>"toypup" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 04:30:45 GMT, Luigi de Guzman wrote:
>>
>> > On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 00:51:44 +0000, Claire Petersky wrote:
>> >
>> >> You might be interested in this article, here:
>> >>
>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=462091&in_page_id=1770
>> >>
>> > I read that last week and felt really quite sad.
>> >
>> > I wonder, though: what is it about us these days that makes risk so
>> > unacceptable?
>>
>> It is relative risk. People will focus on reducing the greater risk. When
>> the risk of dying at a young age from illness or whatnot is so high, no one
>> cares about the risk of dying on a bike, because that risk is comparatively
>> low. When the risk of dying from illness is low, then the risk of dying on
>> a bike become relatively greater. Bike helmets and other safety measures
>> become a necessity.
>>
>> The more one worries about day to day survival, the less concerned one is
>> about bike helmets, air bags, seat belts, car seats, sanitation,
>> cholesterol, etc.
>
>And I think part of it is advance guilt. You can't control your child dying
>in a typhoid epidemic. You can, however, prevent your child from riding a
>bicycle on streets with cars on them. Not letting your child take risks
>means that you're not taking the risk of something happening to your child
>that YOU feel responsible for (and that you'll be blamed for by everyone
>around you). It is no longer expected that many families will lose a child
>at some point.
>
>One thing we discussed at length in my pregnancy loss group was the "too
>precious" child-that it is very typical for families who have lost a baby to
>overdo it with their living child and to shelter that child too much, overdo
>it on material posessions, and in general treat the child like a hothouse
>flower, with similar results.

This basically happened to my mom - her brother and only sibling died
of some disease (this would have been about 1915) and her mother was
extremely protective of her after that. I have the letters that my
grandmother wrote to my mom when she went to college. My grandmother
wrote almost every day, and almost every letter started with a
complaint that she had not had a letter that day, or if she had, a
complaint about how short the letter was.

And my mom tried really hard to have more than two children because of
the chance of one dying. After she had a child that died a few days
after birth (a blue baby before they had the operation) and a serious
miscarriage at about 6 months, her doctor told her to stop trying if
she wanted to see her children that she had grow up.

> I see much the same fear, though, in families
>who haven't had a loss of a child now because of the very slim possibility
>that their child will be taken from them.
>
I think a lot of it can be laid at the feet of the news media who
publicize all the things that happen to children - not just in the
immediate area, but all over the country and sometimes all over the
world - WITH PICTURES. Horrifying pictures - and not just still b&w
photos which would have been in the newspaper, but color moving
pictures.

When I was with my (13-14 yo) grandson in Ireland, he was initially
uncomfortable in going anywhere without me. Eventually he got so he
would go out with other people on the tour, and then at the end, he
was comfortable with going from the hotel (in Kensington) around the
corner to Burger King in the morning.

I did this deliberately because I think that children need to
experience being on their own in small ways before they go off to
college or work and have to be really on their own. I wanted him to
practice independence and looking out for himself in various
environments. And I suspected that he didn't do too much on his own
at home. [which he confirmed]

But my dh and my sister both told me that I had been a bad grandmother
for allowing this because something might have happened to him and
because it would worry his parents. Although my sister allowed and
encouraged him to walk around Princeton by himself to go get a haircut
or meet her at the camera store and she didn't seem to feel this was a
problem.

Nothing did happen of course, and neither of his parents have said
anything to me. In the case of ds, I doubt if he would say anything
(he after all did a trip with HIS grandmother at that age), and I
haven't talked to my DIL.

[Cathy Kearns]

"Rosalie B." > wrote in message
...
> I think a lot of it can be laid at the feet of the news media who
> publicize all the things that happen to children - not just in the
> immediate area, but all over the country and sometimes all over the
> world - WITH PICTURES. Horrifying pictures - and not just still b&w
> photos which would have been in the newspaper, but color moving
> pictures.

I agree with Rosalie, that the national news media does have a hand in this.
But interestingly enough, as I started reading this thread after reading
stories of two local students. The first was about a young lady who happens
to be a member of my country club. As a freshman in high school she was
involved in a terrible boating accident that left her with major head
injuries and leg injuries, with one leg almost torn off by the propeller.
The story was how this young lady went from being expected to never walk
again to running, and playing sports again. And then while still working
hard to graduate with her class both her parents were struck with cancer.
And yet she was still able to hold the family together while keeping up her
studies, and graduate with her class. She wouldn't have made the strides
she did without the strong support of her mother, who refused to give up, or
codle her daughter. And though her mom still worries about her daughter,
she lets her go, because she wants her to grow up to be strong, just like
her mother. It's an absolutely inspirational family.

The second story was about a young man in my daughter's graduating class
that died in a freak accident two days after his high school graduation. I
only know the family a little, but all the stories point to how incredible
this young man was: eagle scout, international choral singer with the high
school, trumpet player in the band, outdoorsman. And the quote from his
father in the paper that really hit home was that his son had an amazing
life, and he was saddened he couldn't see the second act. How many of us
can look at our 18 year old children and say they have had an amazing life?

These stories focused on these children not because they were brought up
safe in a scary world, but because they were brought up to take on life.

I've tried to raise my children to be self sufficient. I let them bike or
walk to school on their own starting in the fourth grade, biking with me
before that. By junior high that means crossing a major street, for a
distance of a little over a mile. They went to sleep away camp starting at
age 8 for a week. By the end of high school my oldest was away from home
pretty much all summer. They were allowed to walk to our little downtown
area on their own when they were 11. I let my high school daughter take the
train into San Francisco with friends to go warehouse shopping starting when
she was 14. When she was 16, while looking at colleges with her father, he
had heart problems, and she found her way back from Mass General to her
hotel (three different subway lines) by herself at rush hour. She ordered
room service, and calmly waited for him to come back. (While I panicked on
the opposite coast...) By senior year she was comfortable enough go to San
Francisco with two other girls to film homeless for what turned out to be an
award winning documentary.

On college tours I see many parents struggling. They've been sheltering
their children for so long they aren't sure how to let go, or whether the
kids will be able to live on their own. They ask if there are dorm
chaperones? Are there curfews? How do they know their kids aren't leaving
campus? And I wonder too, if this is the first time their children are
really free to roam, to do whatever they want, how do they know to make the
right choices?

But this isn't new. I see the US, and how the country is willing to give up
so much to try and be safe. Individual lives are just paralleling the
country as a whole.

[toypup]

On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:17:06 GMT, Rosalie B. wrote:

> But my dh and my sister both told me that I had been a bad grandmother
> for allowing this because something might have happened to him and
> because it would worry his parents. Although my sister allowed and
> encouraged him to walk around Princeton by himself to go get a haircut
> or meet her at the camera store and she didn't seem to feel this was a
> problem.

I think it is fine, if your dgs was your child, but he is not. I think you
should respect the wishes of his parents, no matter how unreasonable you
think they are, unless it is an immediate danger to his health. To not do
so would mean risking future

[Rosalie B.]

toypup > wrote:

>On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 13:17:06 GMT, Rosalie B. wrote:
>
>> But my dh and my sister both told me that I had been a bad grandmother
>> for allowing this because something might have happened to him and
>> because it would worry his parents. Although my sister allowed and
>> encouraged him to walk around Princeton by himself to go get a haircut
>> or meet her at the camera store and she didn't seem to feel this was a
>> problem.
>
>I think it is fine, if your dgs was your child, but he is not. I think you
>should respect the wishes of his parents, no matter how unreasonable you
>think they are, unless it is an immediate danger to his health. To not do
>so would mean risking future

Well the parents themselves never said anything of the sort. It was
his great aunt and his grandfather who expressed concern. So I don't
know if the parents were worried or concerned. I tend to think not.

I was sending them daily reports of just about everything we did
(initially just to my son, but I reluctantly* added my DIL when she
requested it), and also posting photos for them to see. So they could
have written and expressed concern, and they did not. My son did
comment on some of the photos (which were on MySpace restricted
viewing only for friends, and my only friends were my son, and
granddaughter and the grandson who was with me), but the comments were
not critical.

And while the dgs himself told other people that he wasn't allowed to
walk very far in his neighborhood, I know his sister was out playing
in the rain filled ditches along the side of the road and over at
other people's houses in the same way that my children did. My
children had to ride their bikes along a public highway with no
shoulders to get to their friend's houses to play. Of course it was a
comparatively deserted highway with about one car every half hour and
I knew that my kids could ride their bikes safely and wouldn't be
larking around.

*There's a certain amount of unhappiness on my part with my DIL
because I don't think she's been a very good wife to my son, but I
don't want to go into that here. I was a little bit afraid that she
wouldn't let my grandson go with me in order to make my ds unhappy,
but she's apparently found other ways to do that.

[Luigi de Guzman]

Thanks for the leads, guys.

Went to my local sporting emporium. I was thoroughly dissatisfied by the
24" bikes on offer there: pretend freeride/downhill bikes with boinger
forks and really awkward looking angles.

The shock of the day was when I took a close look at some of the BMX
offerings. They wanted $189 for bikes with COTTERED CRANKS?!


Here's a photo from my phone cam:

http://ouij.livejournal.com/230210.html

I didn't even know they were selling cottered cranks anymore. I saw some
one-piece/Ashtabula cranks there, but I left stupefied as to why I should
be induced to part with my hard-earned cash for a bike with cottered
cranks.

Grrr.

-Luigi

--
Luigi de Guzman
http://ouij.livejournal.com

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article >,
Luigi de Guzman > wrote:

> Thanks for the leads, guys.
>
> Went to my local sporting emporium. I was thoroughly dissatisfied by the
> 24" bikes on offer there: pretend freeride/downhill bikes with boinger
> forks and really awkward looking angles.
>
> The shock of the day was when I took a close look at some of the BMX
> offerings. They wanted $189 for bikes with COTTERED CRANKS?!
>
>
> Here's a photo from my phone cam:
>
> http://ouij.livejournal.com/230210.html
>
> I didn't even know they were selling cottered cranks anymore. I saw some
> one-piece/Ashtabula cranks there, but I left stupefied as to why I should
> be induced to part with my hard-earned cash for a bike with cottered
> cranks.

Ouij, ya big dummy: I'm 90% sure that's a pinch-bolt crank, aka a "three
piece" crank (to distinguish it from an Ashtabula "one-piece"
crank/spindle setup). That means it is an especially nice
department-store BMX, emulating the setup found on very serious BMX
freestyle and racing bikes.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article >,
Luigi de Guzman > wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 02:48:26 +0000, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>

> > In a similar situation with a young girl, the father and I built a 20"
> > cyclocross bike from the starting point of a 20" MTB with a boingy fork.
> > This photoset details the process exquisitely:
> >
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/ttcopley/sets/72157594551105230/
> >
> >
> I may be slain by a surfeit of cuteness. Also coolness. You guys are
> awesome.

One does what one can.

> I think maybe even The Fab One would have been pleased.

Sure. Aluminum frame, just like all the more tasteful pros use.

> > For most kids, less obsessed with having a road bike just like their
> > hero Mandy Poitras, I'd suggest the simplicity and cheapness of a
> > flat-bar setup. The usual source for rigid 20" and 24" forks is the BMX
> > ranks; I'd just recommend a nice 24" Redline cruiser frame as the
> > starting point straight up, except that 24" MTBs are usually cheaper.
>
> build-from-frame might not really be an option here, given the budget. 24"
> BMX would be perfect--but I haven't seen one of those around here. 20"
> BMX would also be nice--but I worry that it'll be too small to ride
> "normally".

24" BMX are commonly known as "cruiser" bikes. They're basically set up
for tall (adult and adult-size teen) riders. Note that even a big
person's BMX is usually intended to have a rather low saddle height, the
saddle being essentially a protective pad for the back of the frame that
is never sat upon during a normal race. This can be remedied using a
long seatpost. Raw frames can be had reasonably cheaply via mail order.

Chalo will happily disabuse you of the notion that a 20" BMX has to be
too small. You may want to drop by a BMX shop to get some local
knowledge, but "Pro XXL" frames are basically 20" BMX frames designed to
fit normal-sized adults. The TT is long, and the seat tube is
slack-angled, so it moves backwards quite far as the post gets tall,
thus fitting big people.

But you don't need one of these frames, either. As I said, I think a
rigid 26" MTB frame will come close to fitting your subject, and they're
as close to free as bikes get. If not that, get a used 24" hardtail MTB
for kids, and use a BMX cruiser fork (ask nicely at a BMX shop; likely
they have some ludicrous old-stock fork with canti posts on it hanging
around like a bad penny).

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

[Luigi de Guzman]

On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 01:08:05 +0000, Ryan Cousineau wrote:

> In article >,
> Luigi de Guzman > wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the leads, guys.
>>
>> Went to my local sporting emporium. I was thoroughly dissatisfied by the
>> 24" bikes on offer there: pretend freeride/downhill bikes with boinger
>> forks and really awkward looking angles.
>>
>> The shock of the day was when I took a close look at some of the BMX
>> offerings. They wanted $189 for bikes with COTTERED CRANKS?!
>>
>>
>> Here's a photo from my phone cam:
>>
>> http://ouij.livejournal.com/230210.html
>>
>> I didn't even know they were selling cottered cranks anymore. I saw some
>> one-piece/Ashtabula cranks there, but I left stupefied as to why I should
>> be induced to part with my hard-earned cash for a bike with cottered
>> cranks.
>
> Ouij, ya big dummy: I'm 90% sure that's a pinch-bolt crank, aka a "three
> piece" crank (to distinguish it from an Ashtabula "one-piece"
> crank/spindle setup). That means it is an especially nice
> department-store BMX, emulating the setup found on very serious BMX
> freestyle and racing bikes.
>

So now I am utterly confused. I thought "three-piece" cranks were the
usual cranks I'm used to seeing. Sheldon says "pinch-bolts" are
technically two-piece cranks, and that they were ". . . formerly usually
found on low-quality bicycles and exercise machines of European
manufacture."

-Luigi

--
Luigi de Guzman
http://ouij.livejournal.com

[Chalo]

Luigi de Guzman wrote:
>
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> >
> > Luigi de Guzman wrote:
> >>
> >> The shock of the day was when I took a close look at some of the BMX
> >> offerings. They wanted $189 for bikes with COTTERED CRANKS?!
> >>
> >> Here's a photo from my phone cam:
> >>
> >>http://ouij.livejournal.com/230210.html
> >
> > Ouij, ya big dummy: I'm 90% sure that's a pinch-bolt crank, aka a "three
> > piece" crank (to distinguish it from an Ashtabula "one-piece"
> > crank/spindle setup). That means it is an especially nice
> > department-store BMX, emulating the setup found on very serious BMX
> > freestyle and racing bikes.
>
> So now I am utterly confused. I thought "three-piece" cranks were the
> usual cranks I'm used to seeing. Sheldon says "pinch-bolts" are
> technically two-piece cranks, and that they were ". . . formerly usually
> found on low-qualitybicyclesand exercise machines of European
> manufacture."

That's definitely a tubular, welded, splined steel (likely CrMo alloy)
crank. You can buy a set from a BMX parts merchant, but they start at
$80:

http://www.danscomp.com/451061.php

So finding one on a sub-$200 bike is a good thing.

Well-appointed freestyle and dirt-jumping BMX bikes these days are
usually equipped with just this sort of crank. Spindle diameters vary
from 19mm to 22mm, with pinch-bolted examples like the one in your
picture having 8 to 12 spline teeth. Most aftermarket cranksets come
furnished with sealed cartridge bearing BBs, while many OEM versions
have large-ball retainers similar to what's in a one-piece crank's
BB. They are all capable of routinely tolerating punishment that
would write off a road or MTB crank, while exhibiting far greater
stiffness than most participants here have ever experienced in any
crank.

The catch is their weight. The lightest CrMo tubular BMX cranks weigh
in at less than 2 lbs including BB but excluding chainwheel; the
heaviest solid forged specimens weigh almost 5 lbs. My best guess is
that the ones in your photo weigh just over 3 lbs, not counting the
stylish steel plate sprocket.

I just built up a BMX bike for the 9-year-old next door neighbor kid
using free parts from the local bike activist shop. He chose the
absolute heaviest, cheesiest department store bike frame that was to
be found there. But it was red and big-tubed, so there was no point
in questioning his decision. We found him a nice heavy one-piece
crank, a heavy suspension seatpost (the best fit for him and the
frame), and a heavy steel fork, stem, brake, and bars. I managed to
round up a nice light pair of aluminum wheels at least.

It's not the sort of bike I would have put together for the little guy
if I had been operating without his guidance. But you know what? It
fits him perfectly, he loves it, and he rides it well and very
quickly. I couldn't have done a better job with my "knowledgeable and
refined" tastes as a guide. If the little scooter can destroy any
part of that bike, it will surely be the 36 spoke aluminum wheels that
I regarded as the choicest bits.

For what it's worth, that boy's parents (who barely know me and don't
speak English) allow him to accompany me on rides for miles all over
the middle of Austin. We've done the State Capitol, the natural
history museum, the bike/ped bridge towards one end of the lake and
the dam at the other, the fountains of our local university campus,
and much more. He's a great kid-- polite, capable, conscientious and
patient (all things I clearly remember _not_ being at that age).

Chalo

[Sheldon Brown]

I replied to this last week, but evidently it didn't make it for some
reason.

Luigi de Guzman wrote:

> So now I am utterly confused. I thought "three-piece" cranks were the
> usual cranks I'm used to seeing. Sheldonsays "pinch-bolts" are
> technically two-piece cranks, and that they were ". . . formerly usually
> found on low-quality bicycles and exercise machines of European
> manufacture."

That was true when I wrote it, but recent developments have made it
obsolete.

If you'll tell me where you found this, I'll revise the page.

Better to use email instead of wasting bandwidth on this list.

Sheldon "Tries To Keep Up To Date" Brown
+---------------------------------------------------+
| The one-size-fits-all baseball cap worn backward |
| has to be the stupidest fashion trend since the |
| invention of the necktie. |
| Nothing says "I'm a moron" quite like that |
| plastic snap strap across the forehead. |
+---------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

[Luigi de Guzman]

After trying (futilely) to find a suitable tiny-framed 26"-wheeled bike on
the local used market, I have decided to go with a used 24" bike for my
babybro.

Bought a barely-used Huffy 24" MTB from a fellow in Vienna for USD $30. No
STEENKIN' suspension, and a seatpost that will extend neatly--just what I
needed. With a bit of cleaning up and it'll be as good as new. I just
couldn't face spending a lot of money for a bike that he'll only use for a
year or so.

I figure I'll get him a nicer bike when he gets big enough to ride more
reasonable wheelsizes and/or can do longer rides. As it is, he's not
allowed to ride much farther than around the block.



--
Luigi de Guzman
http://ouij.livejournal.com

[SMS]

Luigi de Guzman wrote:
> My baby brother, age 12, wants a new bike.
>
> He's 4' 10"--we would reasonably expect that he'd be riding a bike with
> 24" wheels. But I'm hesitant to buy any of the 24"-wheeled bikes on the
> market. I don't much like the idea of suspension forks on something that
> will certainly never see conditions that merit suspension. My brother's
> last bike, with 20" wheels, was a make-believe dual-sus setup which
> creaked like nobody's business.
>
> Being the family bike guy, I've been tasked to find a suitable bike for
> not a lot of money. The bike will likely see very very light use indeed,
> and probably not be used for more than a year, maybe two at most.
>
> I'm leaning towards getting him a freestyle BMX frame and letting him have
> at it. Any thoughts?

The "tweens" are hard. You hate to spend much on a 24" wheeled bike when
they're going to outgrow it pretty quickly. My son is outgrowing his 24"
bicycle (a non-suspension Diamondback I bought used and replaced the
mountain bike tires with road tires).

After searching a lot of places for such an appropriate bike, one
without suspension, and that could stand up to abuse of a tweenager, and
one properly sized, the only one I found was a Marin Muir Woods. The
small size frame (13") is of a design that a short person would have no
trouble riding it. The sales guy at REI even mentioned that this is a
big seller for people looking for the next step after 24", but that
don't want suspension, and that want a strong frame (the Muir Woods is
steel, not aluminum).

If I can't find a used one then I'll wait until the next REI sale to get
one.

At 12, my daughter took my wife's 15" Specialized Expedition. It had
sufficient adjustability in the seat height and stem (quill stem that
also had an adjustable angle) that it fit her.

In any case, look for a 13" framed (XS), 26" wheel, city or hybrid. It
can be difficult, as most manufacturers start at 15" or 16". It can also
be hard to find a bicycle without a suspension fork. Every time I did a
search for extra small frames, or 13", Marin came up.