Cutting my losses; Crazy Arm Cranks shelved. [Archive]

al_lieffring

July 26th 07, 06:13 PM

I have taken the partialy completed sets of my cranks that I have been
working on, stuffed them in a shoebox and put them on the shelf.
I only started to build these because many people assured me that there
were lots of folks that wanted them. I guess that listening to them was
my mistake, I won't ever let that happen again either.

I enjoy making one of a kind parts that make my unis work the way I
want them to, and in the future I'll just have to ignore comments like;
"Wow thats fantastic! I'd love to have a set of those too" Ethusiasm is
cheep, dozens of hours of my labor shouldn't be.

My rant is done now, sorry to bother Ya'll

--
al_lieffring

Al Lieffring

'Al's Unicycling Club'
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mscalisi

July 26th 07, 06:52 PM

It looks like you were close to being finished. Why did you scrap the
project?

al_lieffring wrote:
> I have taken the partialy completed sets of my cranks that I have been
> working on, stuffed them in a shoebox and put them on the shelf.
> I only started to build these because many people assured me that there
> were lots of folks that wanted them. I guess that listening to them was
> my mistake, I won't ever let that happen again either.
>
> I enjoy making one of a kind parts that make my unis work the way I
> want them to, and in the future I'll just have to ignore comments like;
> "Wow thats fantastic! I'd love to have a set of those too" Ethusiasm is
> cheep, dozens of hours of my labor shouldn't be.
>
> My rant is done now, sorry to bother Ya'll

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mscalisi

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mark williamson

July 26th 07, 07:18 PM

That's really too bad, they were a neat idea.

I tried a pair of double-holed cranks, which were good, but it was
still a pain having to get out the pedal spanner and fiddle in order to
change gears. I'm using a self-extracting cotterless crank system at
the moment, which also works well, but also requires fiddling with
tools and difficult-to-remove things.

Your tool-free crazy arm cranks look like an interesting design. When
I first read about (I assume now that this was a post by you) using a
quick release to control an adjustable crank arm I was pretty
skeptical. But actually, your design makes more sense to me now I've
seen it and looks stronger than I'd imagined. I'm moderately happy
with my current setup but these did look like the sort of thing I'd
consider in future - particularly if they received favourable reviews.

It's a shame that you've decided to cut your losses, but I can
understand why you would want to do so; it's not an easy task selling
to a small market, or putting in effort that you're not sure you'll be
paid for. If you're in something for fun, it's important that you do
enjoy it. I hope that you'll consider posting future cool designs you
come up with on the forums anyhow - I'm sure they'd make interesting
reading.

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feel the light

July 26th 07, 08:02 PM

I missed the story. I would love to see a picture of these crazy arms.:)

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pdc

July 26th 07, 08:18 PM

Hey Al, There's alot of "talk" about wants and less of actual
willingness to follow through, or maybe the ability to follow through.
Especially with some of the younger posters. Since you've come pretty
far, perhaps you can keep them "on the market" and finish them on an as
ordered basis. At least keep us posted on your innovations even if you
don't make them available to all.

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NKahler

July 26th 07, 09:37 PM

:(

So what are you going to do with all of those cranks you already made?
I looked at that picture and it looked like you made alot of sets!

I wouldnt give up selling them, if nobody wants to buy any you can try
lowering the price a little bit. :o

Good luck! :p

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Chexjc

July 26th 07, 09:59 PM

NKahler wrote:
>
>
> I wouldnt give up selling them, if nobody wants to buy any you can try
> lowering the price a little bit. :o
>
>

Honestly, I think its a really good idea. As I said in the thread, I'd
buy them if they were less expensive. Actually, I'd buy them at the
price listed if I could afford it. Of course you have to make yourself
a profit and factor in the amount of labor that you put into them. I
don't know how much it cost you for supplies and such, but if you're
capable of doing so, lowering the price always intrigues people. If I
saw a price that I liked, I'd buy a pair, I promise.

Jason

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al_lieffring

July 26th 07, 10:07 PM

NKahler wrote:
> :(
>
> So what are you going to do with all of those cranks you already made?
> I looked at that picture and it looked like you made alot of sets!
>
> I wouldnt give up selling them, if nobody wants to buy any you can try
> lowering the price a little bit. :o
>
> Good luck! :p

You see the kind of #%@* I have to put up with.
I'd rather throw the whole lot in the scrap bin than sell for one penny
less.

O.K., so salesmanship isn't my strong suit.

But let me reiterate, no discounts, not now, not ever. If you can make
the same thing cheaper, go ahead with my blessing.

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Chexjc

July 26th 07, 10:16 PM

I'm sorry if I offended you. I was only making a suggestion.

Unfortunately, that's how the market works sometimes. There are only a
few options when your product won't sell; one of them is lowering the
price.

I'm not saying it is a bad price either, it's just not my interest to
spend that much on cranks (although I wish I could have a pair).

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puresyn

July 26th 07, 10:22 PM

I am sad for the community, but think what you did is definately for the
best. I also had my own business not too long ago. I was often told my
service was exceptional. I sold insurance (so the pricing was the same
no matter where you went). But in the end, I didn't have enough clients
and buying more leads just killed me. I still get calls from referrals,
but it is too late. I am with a largest firm in the world now, so I am
not bitter about the industry. So I hope you still have a positive
attitude eventough many people have flaked on you. Whether they're 14
or 90, people will flake on you or egg you on. I wish you luck in your
future endeavors.

Sean

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thejdw

July 26th 07, 10:30 PM

do you use them? (i'm assuming you mean the ajustable crank arms)

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kington99 wrote:
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mscalisi

July 26th 07, 11:13 PM

Yes, lots of people (especially younger) are used to the prices they get
on products mass produced in taiwan. The price you originally were
thinking of is a bargain, especially compared to the alternatives which
are scarce.

Don't let the vocal kiddies get you down, there are more than a few
people who are willing to pay for quality workmanship, especially from
one of our own.

...especially if they work, and they're already made.

If anything, raise the price.

al_lieffring wrote:
> You see the kind of #%@* I have to put up with.
> I'd rather throw the whole lot in the scrap bin than sell for one penny
> less.
>
> O.K., so salesmanship isn't my strong suit.
>
> But let me reiterate, no discounts, not now, not ever. If you can make
> the same thing cheaper, go ahead with my blessing.

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al_lieffring

July 27th 07, 12:09 AM

O.K. for all you young folks; here is how the free market really works,
in terms that persons on your maturity can understand,

Na-na--Nuh--Na-na I got what you want and you can't get it.

Should I lower the price?? To match what competition, What is
available is priced from $250-$450. And are bicycle components that
have to be modified to work on a Uni.

At this point I don't care if Ya'll are insulted, in fact that is what
I am looking for. Someone who want's these so bad that even if I throws
rocks at yer dog and calls yer sister names, you'd still buy 'em any
way.

The rest of you will get by just fine without them.

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al_lieffring

Al Lieffring

'Al's Unicycling Club'
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banjo_gun_snake_wheels

July 27th 07, 12:43 AM

Wow, your posts make you look very immature. You may be losing potential
customers who were interested, but unsure, with every word you post.

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banjo_gun_snake_wheels

John

Each additional time I fail will make the first time I succeed that
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onelesscar

July 27th 07, 12:54 AM

banjo_gun_snake_wheels wrote:
> Wow, your posts make you look very immature. You may be losing potential
> customers who were interested, but unsure, with every word you post.

I think he has a right to be upset.

However, I have to admit that for homemade cranks, if I were in the
market for some adjustable cranks (which I'm not, sorry), I wouldn't
want to put down that kind of money unless I was able to try them
first, or have some sort of guarantee. Cokers put huge stress demands
on their cranks, and even manufactured cranks often fail.

Cranks like the Kookas or the DaVincis can charge more because they are
proven. Also because they are aluminum, but that advantage is minimal.

--
onelesscar

Catching the coker fever.
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mscalisi

July 27th 07, 01:01 AM

The DaVincis cost more because the company that makes them probably
wants to make a profit.

How much do you think al_lieffring winds up paying himself after the
costs of materials? This doesn't take into account the machinery
required (and maintenance) and years of training. Also, he gets a big
ZERO for R&D.

I'd be irritated too by people asking him to pay himself what probably
works out to be minimum wage at best. (or at a loss)

onelesscar wrote:
> I think he has a right to be upset.
>
> However, I have to admit that for homemade cranks, if I were in the
> market for some adjustable cranks (which I'm not, sorry), I wouldn't
> want to put down that kind of money unless I was able to try them
> first, or have some sort of guarantee. Cokers put huge stress demands
> on their cranks, and even manufactured cranks often fail.
>
> Cranks like the Kookas or the DaVincis can charge more because they are
> proven. Also because they are aluminum, but that advantage is minimal.

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Chexjc

July 27th 07, 01:04 AM

onelesscar wrote:
> I think he has a right to be upset.

Yea, but calm down a bit. I apologized and I'm still getting the
impression that I'm being targetted as 'immature youth'.

Also, who said they were insulted?

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gerblefranklin

July 27th 07, 03:01 AM

Ahahaha. Al, I support your decision. Small one-off projects should be
done for the love, because as you can see, someone's going to try to
fleece you of the profit. I see no reason for you to lower your prices
at all, and honestly, anyone complaining about "scaring off customers"
is missing the point. Your industry is metalwork, not freakin' retail.

I seriously considered (to the point where I sourced materials, and
made the computer models) making a titanium KH hub and offering it for
sale here. What stopped me was pretty much what stopped you. I could
not charge enough per hub to mitigate how much I hate working retail,
and most people would be blown away by the price and somehow think they
should be charged less.

P.S. If anyone's wondering, average machine shop HOURLY rate is
$100/hr. The place I work charges anywhere from $150-185/hr for jobs,
with a 1-hr minimum (some of the machines have an operating overhead of
$65+/hr...). That means if you walk in and want me to tighten a screw
or drill a hole in your shoe, it's $150, minimum. Bearing that in mind,
maybe now it makes sense why parts made by guys like Al can be so damn
expensive.

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mark williamson

July 27th 07, 03:11 AM

al_lieffring wrote:
> O.K. for all you young folks; here is how the free market really works,
> in terms that persons on your maturity can understand,
>

Ouch... no matter what people have said to you in other threads I
don't think that was called for here. Nobody is being rude to you, or
deliberately saying anything to offend you. Obviously the whole
business has made you feel frustrated but unfairly lashing out against
"young folks" isn't helping anyone.

I don't think anybody here has made any immature or unreasonable
comments on your invention. I realise you're probably selling these
below cost when taking into account what you could make by spending the
same amount of time on your day job. Obviously charging less wouldn't
make much sense, unless you're trying to cut your losses financially.

The comments about price are feedback from potential customers. I
don't believe they're saying you should work for free, they're saying
they can't afford your product. It's feedback. If you could find a
cheaper way of building cranks - maybe a more limited design - maybe
they'd be able to buy it. But that probably doesn't matter right now,
because for the Crazy Arm Cranks they probably -aren't in that market
segment- anyhow.

The main use I see here is fairly serious 36er riders. Folks who are
seriously into distance riding and cokering typically have deeper
pockets - the good kit is quite expensive. These guys can afford your
work, but they're thinner on the ground, so you're going to see less
comments from them here. it doesn't mean they don't exist, though.

I wouldn't count myself as a particularly accomplished distance rider,
but nevertheless I have the spare cash and am always interested in new
innovations, custom work, etc. I'm prepared to shell out fairly steep
prices to get something that Just Works for doing comfortable long
distance / commuting / muni all on the coker. Your cranks being
tool-free is a bonus that no other solutions I've tried have. There
are plenty of folks out there who are similar to me in this respect.
I'm not going to pretend I'd rush out and order your cranks straight
away, I'd at least need to read some good reviews and then lust over
them a bit before stumping up the cash. But they do look like
something that could be good for the niche of serious Cokeurs doing
varied riding.

>
> At this point I don't care if Ya'll are insulted, in fact that is what
> I am looking for. Someone who want's these so bad that even if I throws
> rocks at yer dog and calls yer sister names, you'd still buy 'em any
> way.
>
> The rest of you will get by just fine without them.

Yes, they'll get by - free market and all.

Here's what I hope is a more constructive and feasible suggestion if
you have any interest at all in selling some of these, or maybe just in
showing people what you did. Why not finish off one set, and see if
you can loan them to Uni Magazine for review. If the Uni folks find
they're good then maybe you'll get some more interest and be able to
reach a wider audience than the regular forum readers. Worst case,
you're without one set of cranks for a little while, then you get them
back.

If you're really sick of getting negative comments on your project then
I understand you giving up. Internet forums are an abundant source of
"stop energy" and it's hard to make people understand what you're
trying to do and why. For the record I think the design looks
potentially very interesting - and I'm speaking as a consumer, not as
an engineer (because clearly your knowhow outstrips me).

--
mark williamson

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pedals!
Mark: To answer a question with a question: What use is a skateboard?
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MuniAddict

July 27th 07, 03:37 AM

banjo_gun_snake_wheels wrote:
> Wow, your posts make you look very immature. You may be losing potential
> customers who were interested, but unsure, with every word you post.

I agree. He's being a total jerk.

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tobbogonist

July 27th 07, 03:43 AM

How old are you sir?

I have not read the whole thread but you sound about 6.

Sorry for not buying your product and sorry for not taking any interest
in your product.

I am sure it is a wonderfull invention but do try take some of the
blame, dont dump it back onto us younger forum members.

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Jordan

July 27th 07, 06:47 AM

Welcome to the world of economics, your price is high therefore the
quantity demanded is low and you have a surplus of products. no need to
bitch at people, it was your own fault for not doing proper a market
analysis. Also I have never even heard of these cranks nor have a lot
of people in this topic so you are/were obviously not promoting them
very good.

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GhettoSmurf

July 27th 07, 06:53 AM

ill buy a set when a decent airfoil wheel comes out..
the problem is s there's no high end wheels worthy of these cranks.

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tomblackwood

July 27th 07, 07:03 AM

mark williamson wrote:
> The main use I see here is fairly serious 36er riders. Here's what I
> hope is a more constructive and feasible suggestion if you have any
> interest at all in selling some of these, or maybe just in showing
> people what you did. Why not finish off one set, and see if you can
> loan them to Uni Magazine for review. If the Uni folks find they're
> good then maybe you'll get some more interest and be able to reach a
> wider audience than the regular forum readers. Worst case, you're
> without one set of cranks for a little while, then you get them back.

A pretty level-headed suggestion in a thread that has otherwise
deteriorated into a bi-directional bitchfest. Like JC, I have a pair
of the tri-adjustable Kookas from pdc, but that doesn't necessarily
take me out of the market. I'm interested in the "no tool" comment I
saw. I'd love to look at these, but unfortunately, every link to pic
or video is broken, because they're all housed on the cursed Gallery.
Any chance of posting a link on a photo site that works?

I change the length on my Kookas a lot. While I'm currently trying to
ride everything on the 130 setting, a few big hills tonight reaffirmed
to me that I like having the flexibility. In regard to the review
suggestion above, I'd be willing to ride and review them as well. I'm
in active training right now for a 100+ mile 'charity event'
(http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62934) in September,
and both my training rides and the event is a mix of lots of flats and
rollers punctuated by Big Climbs. Exactly the terrain your cranks
would excel at. I'm also about to rotate my wheel, so I'll be pulling
my cranks off anyway to do that. In other words, the timing is
perfect. From a "security" standpoint, I've been on these fora for a
while, lots of long-time members know me and know where I live. I'm
not going anywhere. I'm an adjustable crank fan, so if they work well I
rave about it in some detail, which might inspire some others to buy.
Plus I'd buy the (slightly used) pair you send me.

PM me if interested and we can take it from there.

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NKahler

July 27th 07, 08:03 AM

al_lieffring wrote:
> O.K. for all you young folks; here is how the free market really works,
> in terms that persons on your maturity can understand,
>
> Na-na--Nuh--Na-na I got what you want and you can't get it.
>
> Should I lower the price?? To match what competition, What is
> available is priced from $250-$450. And are bicycle components that
> have to be modified to work on a Uni.
>
> At this point I don't care if Ya'll are insulted, in fact that is what
> I am looking for. Someone who want's these so bad that even if I throws
> rocks at yer dog and calls yer sister names, you'd still buy 'em any
> way.
>
> The rest of you will get by just fine without them.

I was just trying to be nice.... I hate people like you, you guys think
that all young people like me are retarded little freaks that cant even
think for themselves... When people try to be nice to you, you dont
just say stuff like that. I wasnt trying to offend you, I was trying to
be NICE...

For you're age you are very immature, You remind me of one of those 5
year old kids that think that they know everything.

And what you're saying makes absolutely no sense... Why would you
rather not sell them than Sell them for a cheaper price. When i said
lower the price i meant maybe $20-40 or something

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NKahler

July 27th 07, 08:11 AM

Wait....... YOUR 50?!?!?!?

Wooooooow....... I thought you are like 20 at MOST by the way you are
acting..
You are older than my dad and you're talking like that..

That really is just sad
I honestly don't know how to express my feelings right now, because the
only time anyone talked to me like that was when i was in elementary
school :confused:

PLEEEASE tell me that you aren't 50 years old.....

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Jerrick

July 27th 07, 08:15 AM

Haha, overreacting on both parts here is making me laugh.

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tomblackwood

July 27th 07, 08:27 AM

Simmah Dahn Nah!!! Just Simmah Dahn!!!

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wobbling bear

July 27th 07, 09:33 AM

Al : forget the bad remarks.
I think there is always a market for things such as your cranks
because there are people able to indulge in support for inventors
(fancy goods people know that)
I do not know the price (I didn't even know they were for sale).
could you please tell us (or PM me, I am going to New England this
August but I do not know in which part of the states you are).

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boo radley

July 28th 07, 12:58 AM

You can't just make a for sale thread on the forum and expect people to
shell out that much money for an obscure product. Marketing is about
repetition. Send a set to Uni Mag, let them review it. Then send them
to riders like TB who will give reviews here. Do a better job of
getting the word out. If the product works and reviews are good, people
will notice. They will "lust over them a bit", ask questions about your
product, and then orders will start coming in. Seems like something I'd
be interested in, but your marketing sucks. This thread made me laugh
though, thanks for that.

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MuniAddict

July 28th 07, 01:01 AM

boo radley wrote:
> Send a set to Uni Mag, let them review it. Then *send them to riders
> like TB* who will give reviews here. Seems like something I'd be
> interested in, but your marketing sucks. This thread made me laugh
> though, thanks for that.

Who's "TB"?

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skilewis74

July 28th 07, 02:47 AM

I personally am not in the market for cranks like these, but I can see
myself willing to purchase a pair in a year or two, when I have
developed more skill.

I now there are a bunch of people who would get them right now for your
price, if they were available. I would bet that there are enough
interested riders out there to sell most of your first batch fairly
quickly. (Was it going to be 100?)

mark williamson wrote:
> Here's what I hope is a more constructive and feasible suggestion if you
> have any interest at all in selling some of these, or maybe just in
> showing people what you did. Why not finish off one set, and see if
> you can loan them to Uni Magazine for review. If the Uni folks find
> they're good then maybe you'll get some more interest and be able to
> reach a wider audience than the regular forum readers. Worst case,
> you're without one set of cranks for a little while, then you get them
> back.

+1
IMO this should have been one of the first things done.

Some people just swear a lot, but IMO totally unessesary.

--
skilewis74

Ride everywhere and never just ride anywhere. If you can ride where you
are going within a hour, do it, and if you can do a trick 50-75% of the
time do it along the way.
Parafrasing a pro skater when asked for advise to kids who wanted to
get much better and maybee turn pro one day.
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ntappin

July 28th 07, 05:05 AM

I'm sorry but I really think that 150 is actualy a *GOOD *price. If you
look at PDC's tripple holed cranks they were that price, they sold
well, and these cranks are way better!

At first I thought you were going a bit overbored with all the quitting
and stuff, but seeing the way people are treating you and such, I can
definatly understand why you have no will to push on. Its too bad that
such an amazing product can't be produced, but I guess thats your
choice.

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wickedbob

July 28th 07, 05:10 AM

Hey can we buy the one you made I would really like some, but don't have
the money now, but might in a couple months or so.

150 is a great price. At least I think so for something hand crafted.
People don't realize your paying for the time to make it, materials and
so fourth. So 150 is a good price factoring all of that.

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skill"-Loren
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Ducttape wrote:
> not gonna show you it tonight becasue I am going to play with it until I
> go to bed to get it just right.........
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wobbling bear

July 28th 07, 08:35 AM

if 150 is the price: I'll get a pair .... if still possible :o
(for us Europeans dollars don't cost that much nowadays :D )

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Chrashing

July 28th 07, 02:07 PM

Hello AL,

I am sorry to see this has turned out to be a bad experience. Your
design looks very promising. I immediately subscribed to your
announcement thread to watch the progress. I know $150 is a terrific
bargain for a well made innovative design.

--
Chrashing

Regards,
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CKCrowe

July 29th 07, 04:12 AM

Ya'll
The rest of you will get by just fine without them.

I know where you live!!!! not really, I want to use an accent on the
internet...

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SARIN

July 29th 07, 06:17 AM

I wouldn't get too down on the deal...There are lame-o's in every line
of business.

I'm a tattoo artist. Just the other day I had a guy who came in and
wanted me to compose a tattoo (1/2sleeve) from wrist to elbow AND
produce a color drawing for him just to decide if he wanted to get it
or not...and he didn't think that he should leave any deposit for my
time. This would've been at least 4-6 hours of my time. I don't know
what his deal was, but I told him politely that this is a business and
not a charity. Not forgetting to mention that this is permanent
artwork that will last his whole life. I charge $130 per hour, and I
wasted over 1/2 hour consulting with this guy about this project that
he wanted...I want a reimbursement for my time!

I should've told him to go out and wash my jeep and if I thought he did
a good enough job, then I'd consider paying him for it.

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