Buses

[Tony Raven[_2_]]

After cyclist Bridgette Panormo was killed in Portsmouth by being
dragged across a roundabout by a bus that drove over her, a passenger
has now been killed after being dragged under a bus for a mile.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7035041.stm

--
Tony

" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell

[JNugent[_2_]]

Tony Raven wrote:

> After cyclist Bridgette Panormo was killed in Portsmouth by being
> dragged across a roundabout by a bus that drove over her, a passenger
> has now been killed after being dragged under a bus for a mile.
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7035041.stm

<sharp intake of breath>

"The [bendy] bus, operated by East London Buses, has been seized and
will undergo an examination. A Transport for London spokesperson said
the London bus network has an excellent safety record. "Fatalities are
extremely rare - one fatality for every 100 million miles operated,"
she said"

Maybe - but is the same true of those bendy-buses?

[Paul Boyd[_2_]]

On 09/10/2007 19:47, Tony Raven said,
> After cyclist Bridgette Panormo was killed in Portsmouth by being
> dragged across a roundabout by a bus that drove over her, a passenger
> has now been killed after being dragged under a bus for a mile.
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7035041.stm

Yeuch. But how? Surely the wheels would have rolled over the bloke.
Well, obviously not, but it seems a bit odd unless the reporting is less
than accurate.

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

[simonk]

On Tue, 9 Oct 2007 19:51:47 +0100, JNugent wrote
(in article >):

> Tony Raven wrote:
>
>> After cyclist Bridgette Panormo was killed in Portsmouth by being
>> dragged across a roundabout by a bus that drove over her, a passenger
>> has now been killed after being dragged under a bus for a mile.
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7035041.stm
>
> <sharp intake of breath>
>
> "Fatalities are
> extremely rare - one fatality for every 100 million miles operated,"
> she said"

Hmm. Doesn't sound quite so rare when you re-phrase that as "7 and a half
deaths a year"

--
simonk

[simonk]

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 09:12:06 +0100, David Martin wrote
(in article . com>):

> On Oct 9, 9:47 pm, simonk > wrote:
>
>> Hmm. Doesn't sound quite so rare when you re-phrase that as "7 and a half
>> deaths a year"
>
> Half a death? Howzat happen then?

I think last Sunday's hangover probably counts

--
simonk

[David Martin]

On Oct 9, 9:47 pm, simonk > wrote:

> Hmm. Doesn't sound quite so rare when you re-phrase that as "7 and a half
> deaths a year"

Half a death? Howzat happen then?

[Paul Boyd]

David Martin said the following on 10/10/2007 09:12:
> On Oct 9, 9:47 pm, simonk > wrote:
>
>> Hmm. Doesn't sound quite so rare when you re-phrase that as "7 and a half
>> deaths a year"
>
> Half a death? Howzat happen then?

It's how I feel this morning :-)

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

[POHB]

On 9 Oct, 19:51, JNugent >
wrote:
> "The [bendy] bus, operated by East London Buses, has been seized and
> will undergo an examination. A Transport for London spokesperson said
> the London bus network has an excellent safety record. "Fatalities are
> extremely rare - one fatality for every 100 million miles operated,"
> she said"
>
> Maybe - but is the same true of those bendy-buses?

Some stats came out a few months ago showing they were twice as likely
to injure people as stiff buses. TFL reckoned this could be at least
partly due to them being used more in busy areas.

[Brian Robertson]

Tony Raven wrote:
> After cyclist Bridgette Panormo was killed in Portsmouth by being
> dragged across a roundabout by a bus that drove over her, a passenger
> has now been killed after being dragged under a bus for a mile.
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7035041.stm
>

Obviously a death is always regrettable and unsafe vehicles should be
banned, but how many deaths a year do buses of all types PREVENT by
keeping millions out of cars? Would you rather cycle down a road with
bendy buses, or a road with all the bendy bus passengers driving cars?

Brian.

[Paul Rudin[_2_]]

Brian Robertson > writes:


> Would you rather cycle down a road with bendy buses, or a road with
> all the bendy bus passengers driving cars?

But those are not the only options. E.g. why not have double decker
busses instead of bendy busses?

[Roger Merriman]

Brian Robertson > wrote:

> Tony Raven wrote:
> > After cyclist Bridgette Panormo was killed in Portsmouth by being
> > dragged across a roundabout by a bus that drove over her, a passenger
> > has now been killed after being dragged under a bus for a mile.
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7035041.stm
> >
>
> Obviously a death is always regrettable and unsafe vehicles should be
> banned, but how many deaths a year do buses of all types PREVENT by
> keeping millions out of cars? Would you rather cycle down a road with
> bendy buses, or a road with all the bendy bus passengers driving cars?
>
> Brian.

cars every time! no seriously bus drivers are bloody awful in most part,
cars certinaly in numbers tend to be slow or jamed up not a problem.

roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com

[Peter Clinch]

Roger Merriman wrote:

> cars every time! no seriously bus drivers are bloody awful in most part,

Highly variable IME. Locally there are 3 flavours and my anecdotal,
unquantified assessment is Stagecoach drivers are more likely to pass
bothersomely close than Travel Dundee or Strathtay, and while there are
exceptions TD and ST are both pretty good at giving me space and
consideration.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

[Roger Merriman]

Peter Clinch > wrote:

> Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> > cars every time! no seriously bus drivers are bloody awful in most part,
>
> Highly variable IME. Locally there are 3 flavours and my anecdotal,
> unquantified assessment is Stagecoach drivers are more likely to pass
> bothersomely close than Travel Dundee or Strathtay, and while there are
> exceptions TD and ST are both pretty good at giving me space and
> consideration.
>
> Pete.

sure, it's like inspite of the fact that nr my folks bikes on the road
are rare site, you get a lot more room than on the edge of london, but
then the roads are fairly light traffic even at rush hour.

roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com

[spindrift]

On 10 Oct, 10:50, (Roger Merriman) wrote:
> Brian Robertson > wrote:
> > Tony Raven wrote:
> > > After cyclist Bridgette Panormo was killed in Portsmouth by being
> > > dragged across a roundabout by a bus that drove over her, a passenger
> > > has now been killed after being dragged under a bus for a mile.
> > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7035041.stm
>
> > Obviously a death is always regrettable and unsafe vehicles should be
> > banned, but how many deaths a year do buses of all types PREVENT by
> > keeping millions out of cars? Would you rather cycle down a road with
> > bendy buses, or a road with all the bendy bus passengers driving cars?
>
> > Brian.
>
> cars every time! no seriously bus drivers are bloody awful in most part,
> cars certinaly in numbers tend to be slow or jamed up not a problem.
>
> roger
> --www.rogermerriman.com

Weeell, when the accident rates for bendy buses came out there was
shock and horror, but IMO discounting the roads used by these- tight
urban City roman layout roads, loads of peds and cyclists- may have
skewed the figures.

What I mean is saying bendy buses are more dangerous to pedestrians
than buses that travel on motorways is a glaring schoolboy howler
you'd expect a pro-speeding lobby group to come out with.

I don't think bendy buses are more dangerous per mile travelled, but I
stand to be corrected, as the man said in the orthopaedic shoes.

[David Lloyd]

On 10 Oct, 13:53, spindrift > wrote:
> On 10 Oct, 10:50, (Roger Merriman) wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Brian Robertson > wrote:
> > > Tony Raven wrote:
> > > > After cyclist Bridgette Panormo was killed in Portsmouth by being
> > > > dragged across a roundabout by a bus that drove over her, a passenger
> > > > has now been killed after being dragged under a bus for a mile.
> > > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7035041.stm
>
> > > Obviously a death is always regrettable and unsafe vehicles should be
> > > banned, but how many deaths a year do buses of all types PREVENT by
> > > keeping millions out of cars? Would you rather cycle down a road with
> > > bendy buses, or a road with all the bendy bus passengers driving cars?
>
> > > Brian.
>
> > cars every time! no seriously bus drivers are bloody awful in most part,
> > cars certinaly in numbers tend to be slow or jamed up not a problem.
>
> > roger
> > --www.rogermerriman.com
>
> Weeell, when the accident rates for bendy buses came out there was
> shock and horror, but IMO discounting the roads used by these- tight
> urban City roman layout roads, loads of peds and cyclists- may have
> skewed the figures.
>
> What I mean is saying bendy buses are more dangerous to pedestrians
> than buses that travel on motorways is a glaring schoolboy howler
> you'd expect a pro-speeding lobby group to come out with.
>
> I don't think bendy buses are more dangerous per mile travelled, but I
> stand to be corrected, as the man said in the orthopaedic shoes

The only way to make a correct and meaningful comparisson would be to
make a study of the accident rate of bendy busses against the busses
that they replaced, on the same routes.

David Lloyd (at work)

[Matt B]

David Lloyd wrote:
> On 10 Oct, 13:53, spindrift > wrote:
>>
>> I don't think bendy buses are more dangerous per mile travelled, but I
>> stand to be corrected, as the man said in the orthopaedic shoes
>
> The only way to make a correct and meaningful comparisson would be to
> make a study of the accident rate of bendy busses against the busses
> that they replaced, on the same routes.

I'm not sure about traffic "accidents", but of the entire previous fleet
of Routemasters, totalling about 2900 vehicles, 3 were destroyed by
fires in 45 years. Out of the current "Ken's chariots of fire"
(bendy-buses), of which there are about 120, so far, 5 have been
destroyed by fire in 3 years.

<http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23414664-details/New%20bendy%20bus%20blaze%20scare/article.do?expand=true>

--
Matt B

[John Hearns[_2_]]

On Wed, 2007-10-10 at 01:12 -0700, David Martin wrote:
> On Oct 9, 9:47 pm, simonk > wrote:
>
> > Hmm. Doesn't sound quite so rare when you re-phrase that as "7 and a half
> > deaths a year"
>
> Half a death? Howzat happen then?
>
Something to do with Whiskas, opening boxes and collapsed wavefunctions.

[Brian Robertson]

Roger Merriman wrote:
> Brian Robertson > wrote:
>
>> Tony Raven wrote:
>>> After cyclist Bridgette Panormo was killed in Portsmouth by being
>>> dragged across a roundabout by a bus that drove over her, a passenger
>>> has now been killed after being dragged under a bus for a mile.
>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7035041.stm
>>>
>> Obviously a death is always regrettable and unsafe vehicles should be
>> banned, but how many deaths a year do buses of all types PREVENT by
>> keeping millions out of cars? Would you rather cycle down a road with
>> bendy buses, or a road with all the bendy bus passengers driving cars?
>>
>> Brian.
>
> cars every time! no seriously bus drivers are bloody awful in most part,
> cars certinaly in numbers tend to be slow or jamed up not a problem.
>
> roger

Hmmmmmm...... You are talking to the wrong person on this one. I am a
bus driver and a cyclist.

Brian.

PS And I work for Stagecoach!

[simonk]

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 10:11:42 +0100, Brian Robertson wrote
(in article >):

> Tony Raven wrote:
>> After cyclist Bridgette Panormo was killed in Portsmouth by being
>> dragged across a roundabout by a bus that drove over her, a passenger
>> has now been killed after being dragged under a bus for a mile.
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7035041.stm
>>
>
> Obviously a death is always regrettable and unsafe vehicles should be
> banned, but how many deaths a year do buses of all types PREVENT by
> keeping millions out of cars? Would you rather cycle down a road with
> bendy buses, or a road with all the bendy bus passengers driving cars?

The latter - the cars would all be stationary!

--
simonk

[[email protected]]

In message >
Brian Robertson > wrote:

> no seriously bus drivers are bloody awful in most part

My subjective experience in London, South of the Thames is that most
bus drivers are observant and tolerant, as a sweeping generalisation.

It might be of help if Bus lanes were better named (Bus, Bike and
Taxi) lanes? And made 24/7 universally with a 24/7 20mph limit? And
opened to vehicles carrying 7 adults?

--
Charles
Brompton P6R-Plus; CarryFreedom -YL, in Motspur Park
LCC; CTC.

[spindrift]

On 11 Oct, 08:47, wrote:
> In message >
> Brian Robertson > wrote:
>
> > no seriously bus drivers are bloody awful in most part
>
> My subjective experience in London, South of the Thames is that most
> bus drivers are observant and tolerant, as a sweeping generalisation.
>
> It might be of help if Bus lanes were better named (Bus, Bike and
> Taxi) lanes? And made 24/7 universally with a 24/7 20mph limit? And
> opened to vehicles carrying 7 adults?
>
> --
> Charles
> Brompton P6R-Plus; CarryFreedom -YL, in Motspur Park
> LCC; CTC.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23416188-details/Smoking+and+on+his+mobile+while+driving+a+bendy+bu s/article.do

[POHB]

On 10 Oct, 10:19, Paul Rudin > wrote:
> Brian Robertson > writes:
> > Would you rather cycle down a road with bendy buses, or a road with
> > all the bendy bus passengers driving cars?
>
> But those are not the only options. E.g. why not have double decker
> busses instead of bendy busses?

The bendy buses have their advantages. They have 3 doors for getting
on and off so they don't have to hang around so long at each stop,
which speeds things up no end. They kneel down to make it easier for
the less athletic or those with buggies to get on and off, as does
being all on one level. Also the stairs on a double-decker are a
safety hazard e.g. a bloke died of back injuries falling down them
last month:

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=145365&command=displayContent&sourceNode=145191&contentPK=18314227&folderPk=83726&pNodeId=144922

[Allan]

POHB wrote:
>
> On 10 Oct, 10:19, Paul Rudin > wrote:
> > Brian Robertson > writes:
> > > Would you rather cycle down a road with bendy buses, or a road with
> > > all the bendy bus passengers driving cars?
> >
> > But those are not the only options. E.g. why not have double decker
> > busses instead of bendy busses?
>
> The bendy buses have their advantages. They have 3 doors for getting
> on and off so they don't have to hang around so long at each stop,
> which speeds things up no end. They kneel down to make it easier for
> the less athletic or those with buggies to get on and off, as does
> being all on one level. Also the stairs on a double-decker are a
> safety hazard e.g. a bloke died of back injuries falling down them
> last month:

The bendy buses in Glasgow have only 2 doors and only the one at the
front is usable.

Allan

[Coyoteboy]

Paul Boyd wrote:
> On 09/10/2007 19:47, Tony Raven said,
>> After cyclist Bridgette Panormo was killed in Portsmouth by being
>> dragged across a roundabout by a bus that drove over her, a passenger
>> has now been killed after being dragged under a bus for a mile.
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7035041.stm
>
> Yeuch. But how? Surely the wheels would have rolled over the bloke.
> Well, obviously not, but it seems a bit odd unless the reporting is less
> than accurate.
>

Roll over then lift up as you come out the other side - jammed in the
arch. Gonna be unpleasant.

[Rob Abram]

On 2007-10-11 16:50:43 +0200, POHB > said:

> On 10 Oct, 10:19, Paul Rudin > wrote:
>> Brian Robertson > writes:
>>> Would you rather cycle down a road with bendy buses, or a road with
>>> all the bendy bus passengers driving cars?
>>
>> But those are not the only options. E.g. why not have double decker
>> busses instead of bendy busses?
>
> The bendy buses have their advantages. They have 3 doors for getting
> on and off so they don't have to hang around so long at each stop,
> which speeds things up no end. They kneel down to make it easier for
> the less athletic or those with buggies to get on and off, as does
> being all on one level.

Hmm. The latest generation of Berlin double-decker buses has three
doors, kneeling, air-conditioning, low floors, space for two
wheelchairs (or four or five buggies), wheelchair ramps at the front &
middle doors, two staircases (one at the front for going up, one at the
back for coming down) and can transport 128 people, 82 of whom get
seats. So you can have the best of both worlds...

<http://www.berliner-verkehrsseiten.de/bus/Fahrzeuge/80-89/DN04/hauptteil_dn04.html>

[Martin Dann]

wrote:
> In message >
> Brian Robertson > wrote:
>
>> no seriously bus drivers are bloody awful in most part
>
> My subjective experience in London, South of the Thames is that most
> bus drivers are observant and tolerant, as a sweeping generalisation.
>
> It might be of help if Bus lanes were better named (Bus, Bike and
> Taxi) lanes? And made 24/7 universally with a 24/7 20mph limit?

I don't agree with the 20mph limit, it should be the same as the rest of
the road.


And
> opened to vehicles carrying 7 adults?

FFS no. Mini-bus drivers in a bus lane are often worse than WVM.

[[email protected]]

>> It might be of help if Bus lanes were better named (Bus, Bike and
>> Taxi) lanes? And made 24/7 universally with a 24/7 20mph limit?

Can't see the point of the latter: why have a bus lane that sits empty
outside the hours that buses run?


-dan

[Martin Dann]

wrote:
>>> It might be of help if Bus lanes were better named (Bus, Bike and
>>> Taxi) lanes? And made 24/7 universally with a 24/7 20mph limit?
>
> Can't see the point of the latter: why have a bus lane that sits empty
> outside the hours that buses run?

Bus lanes are only or any real use for buses when there is a lot of
traffic on the road. When there is little traffic on the road and buses
don't need them, then neither does the other motorised traffic.

There are some bus lanes in Bristol used for on street parking out of
hours, but some people try to cycle in them at the same time. (two
inches from the parted cars, other vehicles overtaking two inches to the
right).

[Simon Brooke]

in message >, Roger Merriman
') wrote:

> Peter Clinch > wrote:
>
>> Roger Merriman wrote:
>>
>> > cars every time! no seriously bus drivers are bloody awful in most
>> > part,
>>
>> Highly variable IME. Locally there are 3 flavours and my anecdotal,
>> unquantified assessment is Stagecoach drivers are more likely to pass
>> bothersomely close than Travel Dundee or Strathtay, and while there are
>> exceptions TD and ST are both pretty good at giving me space and
>> consideration.
>
> sure, it's like inspite of the fact that nr my folks bikes on the road
> are rare site, you get a lot more room than on the edge of london, but
> then the roads are fairly light traffic even at rush hour.

I was in Edinburgh last night. It's quite staggering how many more cyclists
you see in Edinburgh than in the west of Scotland - and how much better,
on average, the bikes and lights are.

Cycling culture is amazingly patchy.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

IMHO, there aren't enough committed Christians, but that's care
in the community for you. -- Ben Evans

[Roger Merriman]

Simon Brooke > wrote:

> in message >, Roger Merriman
> ') wrote:
>
> > Peter Clinch > wrote:
> >
> >> Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>
> >> > cars every time! no seriously bus drivers are bloody awful in most
> >> > part,
> >>
> >> Highly variable IME. Locally there are 3 flavours and my anecdotal,
> >> unquantified assessment is Stagecoach drivers are more likely to pass
> >> bothersomely close than Travel Dundee or Strathtay, and while there are
> >> exceptions TD and ST are both pretty good at giving me space and
> >> consideration.
> >
> > sure, it's like inspite of the fact that nr my folks bikes on the road
> > are rare site, you get a lot more room than on the edge of london, but
> > then the roads are fairly light traffic even at rush hour.
>
> I was in Edinburgh last night. It's quite staggering how many more cyclists
> you see in Edinburgh than in the west of Scotland - and how much better,
> on average, the bikes and lights are.
>
> Cycling culture is amazingly patchy.

you don't see many round my folks place, i suspect as it's rual so
distances are larger, and being a gorge the hills are steep, quite a few
of the roads up and down get into the 30% range.

do get the odd MTB bike and sustrans wanderer. but thats about it.

roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com

[Tony Raven[_2_]]

In article >,
says...
> Simon Brooke > wrote:
>
> > in message >, Roger Merriman
> > ') wrote:
> >
> > > Peter Clinch > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Roger Merriman wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > cars every time! no seriously bus drivers are bloody awful in most
> > >> > part,
> > >>
> > >> Highly variable IME. Locally there are 3 flavours and my anecdotal,
> > >> unquantified assessment is Stagecoach drivers are more likely to pass
> > >> bothersomely close than Travel Dundee or Strathtay, and while there are
> > >> exceptions TD and ST are both pretty good at giving me space and
> > >> consideration.
> > >
> > > sure, it's like inspite of the fact that nr my folks bikes on the road
> > > are rare site, you get a lot more room than on the edge of london, but
> > > then the roads are fairly light traffic even at rush hour.
> >
> > I was in Edinburgh last night. It's quite staggering how many more cyclists
> > you see in Edinburgh than in the west of Scotland - and how much better,
> > on average, the bikes and lights are.
> >
> > Cycling culture is amazingly patchy.
>
> you don't see many round my folks place, i suspect as it's rual so
> distances are larger, and being a gorge the hills are steep, quite a few
> of the roads up and down get into the 30% range.
>
> do get the odd MTB bike and sustrans wanderer. but thats about it.
>

Whereas in Cambridge:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XA_Crc67SAM
http://www.camcycle.org.uk/campaigning/film/

--
Tony

" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell

[Roger Merriman]

Simon Brooke > wrote:

> in message >, Roger Merriman
> ') wrote:
>
> > Peter Clinch > wrote:
> >
> >> Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>
> >> > cars every time! no seriously bus drivers are bloody awful in most
> >> > part,
> >>
> >> Highly variable IME. Locally there are 3 flavours and my anecdotal,
> >> unquantified assessment is Stagecoach drivers are more likely to pass
> >> bothersomely close than Travel Dundee or Strathtay, and while there are
> >> exceptions TD and ST are both pretty good at giving me space and
> >> consideration.
> >
> > sure, it's like inspite of the fact that nr my folks bikes on the road
> > are rare site, you get a lot more room than on the edge of london, but
> > then the roads are fairly light traffic even at rush hour.
>
> I was in Edinburgh last night. It's quite staggering how many more cyclists
> you see in Edinburgh than in the west of Scotland - and how much better,
> on average, the bikes and lights are.
>
> Cycling culture is amazingly patchy.

just a thought, Edinburgh's streets are for most part fairly narrow? ie
they haven't put multy lane roads though it.

it's been a good few years since i've been up that way.

i certinaly notice the differnce with regard to richmound and kingston
upon thames. in that Richmound has retained the shape of it's old
streets, unlike kingston. thus no multylane traffic to play chicken
with. means one can cross the street more easly on foot, or ride though
etc.

roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com

[Roger Merriman]

Tony Raven > wrote:

> In article >,
> says...
> > Simon Brooke > wrote:
> >
> > > in message >, Roger Merriman
> > > ') wrote:
> > >
> > > > Peter Clinch > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Roger Merriman wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > cars every time! no seriously bus drivers are bloody awful in most
> > > >> > part,
> > > >>
> > > >> Highly variable IME. Locally there are 3 flavours and my anecdotal,
> > > >> unquantified assessment is Stagecoach drivers are more likely to pass
> > > >> bothersomely close than Travel Dundee or Strathtay, and while there are
> > > >> exceptions TD and ST are both pretty good at giving me space and
> > > >> consideration.
> > > >
> > > > sure, it's like inspite of the fact that nr my folks bikes on the road
> > > > are rare site, you get a lot more room than on the edge of london, but
> > > > then the roads are fairly light traffic even at rush hour.
> > >
> > > I was in Edinburgh last night. It's quite staggering how many more
> > > cyclists you see in Edinburgh than in the west of Scotland - and how
> > > much better, on average, the bikes and lights are.
> > >
> > > Cycling culture is amazingly patchy.
> >
> > you don't see many round my folks place, i suspect as it's rual so
> > distances are larger, and being a gorge the hills are steep, quite a few
> > of the roads up and down get into the 30% range.
> >
> > do get the odd MTB bike and sustrans wanderer. but thats about it.
> >
>
> Whereas in Cambridge:
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XA_Crc67SAM
> http://www.camcycle.org.uk/campaigning/film/

yup, fair number, almost close to outnumbering cars. biking culture and
the flatness i guess are the reasons there.

it's bloody flat where i live now (nr kingston upon thames) but there is
nothing like the bikes on the road.

roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com

[Simon Brooke]

in message >, Tony Raven
') wrote:

> Whereas in Cambridge:
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XA_Crc67SAM

Imagine that lot were all in cars - there'd be total gridlock.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks? To murder men and give God thanks?
Desist, for shame! Proceed no further: God won't accept your thanks for
murther
-- Robert Burns, 'Thanksgiving For a National Victory'

[The Luggage]

On 13 Oct, 16:08, Simon Brooke > wrote:
> in message >, Tony Raven
>
> ') wrote:
> > Whereas in Cambridge:
> >http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XA_Crc67SAM
>
> Imagine that lot were all in cars - there'd be total gridlock.

There often is!

TL

[Tony Raven[_2_]]

In article . com>,
says...
> On 13 Oct, 16:08, Simon Brooke > wrote:
> > in message >, Tony Raven
> >
> > ') wrote:
> > > Whereas in Cambridge:
> > >http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XA_Crc67SAM
> >
> > Imagine that lot were all in cars - there'd be total gridlock.
>
> There often is!
>

There is partial gridlock in the video but if you examine it, it is all
caused by motor vehicles blocking each other while the cyclists move
freely in and around each other and the stationary motor vehicles.

--
Tony

" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell

[Adam Lea[_2_]]

On 13 Oct, 12:05, Tony Raven > wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Simon Brooke > wrote:
>
> > > in message >, Roger Merriman
> > > ') wrote:
>
> > > > Peter Clinch > wrote:
>
> > > >> Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> > > >> > cars every time! no seriously bus drivers are bloody awful in most
> > > >> > part,
>
> > > >> Highly variable IME. Locally there are 3 flavours and my anecdotal,
> > > >> unquantified assessment is Stagecoach drivers are more likely to pass
> > > >> bothersomely close than Travel Dundee or Strathtay, and while there are
> > > >> exceptions TD and ST are both pretty good at giving me space and
> > > >> consideration.
>
> > > > sure, it's like inspite of the fact that nr my folks bikes on the road
> > > > are rare site, you get a lot more room than on the edge of london, but
> > > > then the roads are fairly light traffic even at rush hour.
>
> > > I was in Edinburgh last night. It's quite staggering how many more cyclists
> > > you see in Edinburgh than in the west of Scotland - and how much better,
> > > on average, the bikes and lights are.
>
> > > Cycling culture is amazingly patchy.
>
> > you don't see many round my folks place, i suspect as it's rual so
> > distances are larger, and being a gorge the hills are steep, quite a few
> > of the roads up and down get into the 30% range.
>
> > do get the odd MTB bike and sustrans wanderer. but thats about it.
>
> Whereas in Cambridge:http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XA_Crc67SAMhttp://www.camcycle.org.uk/campaigning/film/
>
> --
> Tony
>
> " I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
> Bertrand Russell- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Impressive - almost looks like the cyclists are swarming like flies.

A lot of cyclists seem to be riding right up close to the kerb though.

[Ian Jackson]

In article m>,
Adam Lea > wrote:
>On 13 Oct, 12:05, Tony Raven > wrote:
>> Whereas in Cambridge:http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=XA_Crc67SAMhttp://www.camcycle.org.uk/campaigning/film/
>
>Impressive - almost looks like the cyclists are swarming like flies.
>A lot of cyclists seem to be riding right up close to the kerb though.

Yes.

Unfortunately this means that those of us who prefer a more sensible
road position get aggro from idiots who think we shouldn't be "in the
middle of the road".

--
Ian Jackson personal email: >
These opinions are my own. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/
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