Staying Warm in the Cold [Archive]

Crescentius Vespasianus

November 7th 07, 12:36 PM

Crescentius Vespasianus

November 7th 07, 12:56 PM

>
> Go to www.wiggys.com; read the use letter for keeping warm. Wiggys
> has the lightest and
> BEST WORKING, insulated gear in the world.
>
> Jams in Ohio
------------
Why is "fire retardation" a big part of
their clothes line. I've never had a
fire problem while riding, unless maybe
the battery in the bottle cage lights up
due to all the current the light is drawing.

Steve Sr.

November 14th 07, 03:39 AM

Hello,

It is that time of year when the mercury is steadily falling. Even in
North Carolina it has been getting cold enough lately to bring out the
long sleeves and tights.

I have a lot of the cold issues sorted out as far as what equipment to
wear at what temperature. However, I still have one nagging problem.

That problem is with my chest and inside of my arms getting cold in
the front while my back sweats. I have tried different layering
schemes but none seem to work very well. The layers consist of a long
sleeve jersey, short sleeve jersey, and a thin fleece jacket if
temperatures are cold enough.

All of these seem to have the same problem. They appear to breathe too
well in the front and not well enough in the back.

One question that comes to mind is how tight should these layers be? I
don't seem to have problem with my legs being cold or sweating. Is
that because of the material that the tights are made of or is it
because they are contacting every square inch of skin continuously?

My torso layers are not real loose but are not nearly as tight as my
tights? Could this be the problem with my torso getting cold in the
front while sweating in the back?

Thanks for any insight.

Steve

vey

November 14th 07, 04:30 AM

Steve Sr. wrote:

>
> That problem is with my chest and inside of my arms getting cold in
> the front while my back sweats.

Being a really cheap *******, I would fashion something out of nylon or
plastic just for my chest. I would insert it between some of those layers.

Zoot Katz

November 14th 07, 04:42 AM

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 21:39:37 -0500, Steve Sr. >
wrote, in part:
\
>That problem is with my chest and inside of my arms getting cold in
>the front while my back sweats. I have tried different layering
>schemes but none seem to work very well. The layers consist of a long
>sleeve jersey, short sleeve jersey, and a thin fleece jacket if
>temperatures are cold enough.
\
Try adding a wind breaking layer, preferably with vents.

I've a Sugoui, full zip, long sleeve jersey that looks like a
synthetic version of Egyptian Cotton on the front, sleeves and
shoulders about to mid back. The back side of the sleeves and lower
back, with three pockets, is Lycra like a heavy jersey. I wear it as
an outside layer or as a third layer depending on the weather. I
love it despite its being dayglo fluorescent hot pink.

For this time of year I also love wool long sleeved sweaters sized
too large and shrunk to aid water repellency.

The time-honoured trick is to stick a newspaper down your shirt.
--
zk

Joel Wheels

November 14th 07, 04:48 AM

Steve Sr. wrote:
>
> That problem is with my chest and inside of my arms getting cold in
> the front while my back sweats.

I have a vest that's windproof in front and just mesh in back. It helps
but is not perfect.

I always keep my front torso warm and reduce arm/head/hand coverage to
keep from overheating. I also just accept the wet back which only
bothers me when I'm cold. So back to the keep warm comment. I wear
wool jerseys this time of year.

>
> All of these seem to have the same problem. They appear to breathe too
> well in the front and not well enough in the back.

I'd word that differently. One has much more air flowing over one's
front than one's back and it is that airflow quantity that affects the
heat dissipation or lack of.

Perhaps you can fashion an adjustable air intake necklace that directs
air over your back. When developed, r.b.m/t awaits your spam. :) I'd
consider it.

Or perhaps you need to shave your back?

Patrick Lamb

November 14th 07, 04:55 AM

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 21:39:37 -0500, Steve Sr. >
wrote:
>It is that time of year when the mercury is steadily falling. Even in
>North Carolina it has been getting cold enough lately to bring out the
>long sleeves and tights.
>
>I have a lot of the cold issues sorted out as far as what equipment to
>wear at what temperature. However, I still have one nagging problem.
>
>That problem is with my chest and inside of my arms getting cold in
>the front while my back sweats. I have tried different layering
>schemes but none seem to work very well. The layers consist of a long
>sleeve jersey, short sleeve jersey, and a thin fleece jacket if
>temperatures are cold enough.
>
>All of these seem to have the same problem. They appear to breathe too
>well in the front and not well enough in the back.

Have you tried a cycling specific jacket with pit zips?

Or, you might try stuffing newspapers in the front of your jersey.

Pat

Email address works as is.

foa1968@gmail.com

November 14th 07, 05:25 AM

Jim Flom

November 14th 07, 05:42 AM

"Steve Sr." > wrote ...

> One question that comes to mind is how tight should these layers be? I
> don't seem to have problem with my legs being cold or sweating. Is
> that because of the material that the tights are made of or is it
> because they are contacting every square inch of skin continuously?
>
> My torso layers are not real loose but are not nearly as tight as my
> tights? Could this be the problem with my torso getting cold in the
> front while sweating in the back?
>
> Thanks for any insight.

Welcome.

The first rule of retail is "Always give the customer what he thinks he
wants." (courtesy of Ron "Rocky" Roth, Geppetto's, Ashland , OR). I'm
tempted to answer the questions you ask but that would not help you.

In straight up violation of Rocky's first rule of retail, what I think you
really want to know is how can I stay warm when I ride in the cold?

Yes, you can try newspaper and saran wrap, as cheapskates elsewhere have
suggested. Alternatively, consider the following:

This windstop underwear and brief may save your very manhood:
http://www.nordicskater.com/garneau/index.html

or perhaps...
http://www.trisports.com/logamewibu.html?productid=logamewibu&channelid=BIZRA

Keep your head warm with a nice nylon skull cap and your toes warm with
booties and/or baggies over your toes. Works wonders.

--
JF

"A really great man is known by three signs,--generosity in the design,
humanity in the execution, and moderation in success."
- Karl Otto von Schonhausen Bismarck

Tom Sherman[_2_]

November 14th 07, 05:55 AM

Steve Sr. wrote:
> Hello,
>
> It is that time of year when the mercury is steadily falling. Even in
> North Carolina it has been getting cold enough lately to bring out the
> long sleeves and tights.
>
> I have a lot of the cold issues sorted out as far as what equipment to
> wear at what temperature. However, I still have one nagging problem.
>
> That problem is with my chest and inside of my arms getting cold in
> the front while my back sweats. I have tried different layering
> schemes but none seem to work very well. The layers consist of a long
> sleeve jersey, short sleeve jersey, and a thin fleece jacket if
> temperatures are cold enough.
>
> All of these seem to have the same problem. They appear to breathe too
> well in the front and not well enough in the back.
>
> One question that comes to mind is how tight should these layers be? I
> don't seem to have problem with my legs being cold or sweating. Is
> that because of the material that the tights are made of or is it
> because they are contacting every square inch of skin continuously?
>
> My torso layers are not real loose but are not nearly as tight as my
> tights? Could this be the problem with my torso getting cold in the
> front while sweating in the back?
>
> Thanks for any insight.

If I had secure ground level storage, I would get this to stay warm in
the winter: <http://leitra.dk/news.php>. But then again, I am incorrigible.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"the grinning buddy bear carries a fork." - g.d.

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

November 14th 07, 06:14 AM

Steve Sr? writes:

> It is that time of year when the mercury is steadily falling. Even
> in North Carolina it has been getting cold enough lately to bring
> out the long sleeves and tights.

> I have a lot of the cold issues sorted out as far as what equipment
> to wear at what temperature. However, I still have one nagging
> problem.

> That problem is with my chest and inside of my arms getting cold in
> the front while my back sweats. I have tried different layering
> schemes but none seem to work very well. The layers consist of a
> long sleeve jersey, short sleeve jersey, and a thin fleece jacket if
> temperatures are cold enough.

> All of these seem to have the same problem. They appear to breathe
> too well in the front and not well enough in the back.

> One question that comes to mind is how tight should these layers be?
> I don't seem to have problem with my legs being cold or sweating.
> Is that because of the material that the tights are made of or is it
> because they are contacting every square inch of skin continuously?

> My torso layers are not real loose but are not nearly as tight as my
> tights? Could this be the problem with my torso getting cold in the
> front while sweating in the back?

If you consider the effects you are trying to control, rather that
brand names and types of garments you might have a better chance of
success.

Insulation is made of trapped gas (air) and if it is in contact with
your body and has no exchange it will become wet (steamy). This is
why fluffy insulators that allow air to pass gradually (like
knit-wear) are used, so there is an exchange and drying effect.

One of the poorest pieces of clothing for keeping warm, especially at
speed (descending) is a loose wind-proof jacket. It will begin to
flap noisily and while doing that, generate forced convection,
essentially a bucket brigade of air being pumped from the cold outside
to the body as the waterproof or nearly so cloth pumps. There's a
hell of a wind inside a flapping jacket.

You can't have warm extremities if the "hot water pipes" going there
are frozen. Your arms and legs must be kept warm to insure warm
fingers and toes. Just mittens or booties do no good if the supply
channels are frozen.

Thick layers of knit wear breathe and allow moisture to escape while
water and wind proof shells kill that effect. That's what's wrong
with most jerseys today and why they are ridden with their zipper all
the way open from neck to waist on climbs because they don't breathe.
You'll note there are no zippers on woolen or synthetic knit jerseys
except to get the head in and out. There was no need to have them
flap in the breeze to keep cool. The converse is true when cold.
Current jerseys don't breath benignly causing cold sweat.

It's not how tight they fit but how much they breathe.

Jobst Brandt

raamman@gmail.com

November 14th 07, 08:23 AM

On Nov 14, 12:14 am, wrote:
> Steve Sr? writes:
> > It is that time of year when the mercury is steadily falling. Even
> > in North Carolina it has been getting cold enough lately to bring
> > out the long sleeves and tights.
> > I have a lot of the cold issues sorted out as far as what equipment
> > to wear at what temperature. However, I still have one nagging
> > problem.
> > That problem is with my chest and inside of my arms getting cold in
> > the front while my back sweats. I have tried different layering
> > schemes but none seem to work very well. The layers consist of a
> > long sleeve jersey, short sleeve jersey, and a thin fleece jacket if
> > temperatures are cold enough.
> > All of these seem to have the same problem. They appear to breathe
> > too well in the front and not well enough in the back.
> > One question that comes to mind is how tight should these layers be?
> > I don't seem to have problem with my legs being cold or sweating.
> > Is that because of the material that the tights are made of or is it
> > because they are contacting every square inch of skin continuously?
> > My torso layers are not real loose but are not nearly as tight as my
> > tights? Could this be the problem with my torso getting cold in the
> > front while sweating in the back?
>
> If you consider the effects you are trying to control, rather that
> brand names and types of garments you might have a better chance of
> success.
>
> Insulation is made of trapped gas (air) and if it is in contact with
> your body and has no exchange it will become wet (steamy). This is
> why fluffy insulators that allow air to pass gradually (like
> knit-wear) are used, so there is an exchange and drying effect.
>
> One of the poorest pieces of clothing for keeping warm, especially at
> speed (descending) is a loose wind-proof jacket. It will begin to
> flap noisily and while doing that, generate forced convection,
> essentially a bucket brigade of air being pumped from the cold outside
> to the body as the waterproof or nearly so cloth pumps. There's a
> hell of a wind inside a flapping jacket.
>
> You can't have warm extremities if the "hot water pipes" going there
> are frozen. Your arms and legs must be kept warm to insure warm
> fingers and toes. Just mittens or booties do no good if the supply
> channels are frozen.
>
> Thick layers of knit wear breathe and allow moisture to escape while
> water and wind proof shells kill that effect. That's what's wrong
> with most jerseys today and why they are ridden with their zipper all
> the way open from neck to waist on climbs because they don't breathe.
> You'll note there are no zippers on woolen or synthetic knit jerseys
> except to get the head in and out. There was no need to have them
> flap in the breeze to keep cool. The converse is true when cold.
> Current jerseys don't breath benignly causing cold sweat.
>
> It's not how tight they fit but how much they breathe.
>
> Jobst Brandt- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

don't bundle up unless you are going out for an all day thingy in
below freezing; an undershirt, a coolmax jersy, armwarmers and a vest-
stay warm by riding harder- your system will adapt and you will not
notice the temp; then in the spring when it starts to warm up you will
notice you will be flying faster as it gets warmer. take a candybar or
something for quick energy(heat) if you have to fix a flat and get
chilled.

Tim McTeague

November 14th 07, 11:57 AM

"Crescentius Vespasianus" > wrote in message
...

> ----------------
> Put the coolmax away and put on the wool. And always have a full cap on
> your head (not coolmax), that's where you lose the most heat.

Actually, the figure most often quoted for the amount of body heat lost
through the head is 40%. A lot, to be sure, but not the most, as 60% is
lost via the rest of your body.

Tim McTeague

cyclingthings@gmail.com

November 14th 07, 01:38 PM

Peter Cole

November 14th 07, 01:54 PM

Steve Sr. wrote:
> Hello,
>
> It is that time of year when the mercury is steadily falling. Even in
> North Carolina it has been getting cold enough lately to bring out the
> long sleeves and tights.
>
> I have a lot of the cold issues sorted out as far as what equipment to
> wear at what temperature. However, I still have one nagging problem.
>
> That problem is with my chest and inside of my arms getting cold in
> the front while my back sweats. I have tried different layering
> schemes but none seem to work very well. The layers consist of a long
> sleeve jersey, short sleeve jersey, and a thin fleece jacket if
> temperatures are cold enough.
>
> All of these seem to have the same problem. They appear to breathe too
> well in the front and not well enough in the back.
>
> One question that comes to mind is how tight should these layers be? I
> don't seem to have problem with my legs being cold or sweating. Is
> that because of the material that the tights are made of or is it
> because they are contacting every square inch of skin continuously?
>
> My torso layers are not real loose but are not nearly as tight as my
> tights? Could this be the problem with my torso getting cold in the
> front while sweating in the back?

Tight coverings work much better than loose, both thermally and
aerodynamically. This is as true for the torso as for the legs. You want
material that is comfortable worn tight and breathes well. The only
stuff that does this for me is synthetic stretch ("4-way") fleece. I
have tights made from it and a long sleeve jersey. I had to make the top
myself because I couldn't find one off the shelf.

I stopped wearing conventional cycling jackets years ago, they just trap
sweat. My tights are bib style, and in very cold weather I usually add a
stretch fleece vest over the top, so I have 3 fleece layers over my
abdomen. This can still be insufficient to keep my chest from getting
cold, so I usually add a mesh-backed poly vest. The only cold area that
remains is my upper arm/shoulder, I haven't solved that yet.

webhead@telenet.be

November 14th 07, 02:17 PM

I have to agree that a windstopper does the trick here. I keep the
wind from my arms and torso and make sure there are some vents on the
back. In general it's very hard to keep dry AND warm at the same time
but some time ago I went completely overboard (it looked cool) and
bought a 170$ membrane/windproof jacket that seems to allow sweating
and keep wind out while keeping my back cool. Never had a problem
since.

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

November 14th 07, 02:35 PM

someone writes:

> I have to agree that a windstopper does the trick here. I keep the
> wind from my arms and torso and make sure there are some vents on
> the back. In general it's very hard to keep dry AND warm at the
> same time but some time ago I went completely overboard (it looked
> cool) and bought a 170$ membrane/windproof jacket that seems to
> allow sweating and keep wind out while keeping my back cool. Never
> had a problem since.

If it's wind-proof then vents don't have any effect other than
psychosomatic, the body producing no gas volume to vent. For that to
work, the jacket wold need to allow diffuse air to enter in the front
to vent out the back. I don't know what the designers of these vents
believe how and what they are venting.

Jobst Brandt

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

November 14th 07, 07:17 PM

someone writes:

>>> If it's wind-proof then vents don't have any effect other than
>>> psychosomatic, the body producing no gas volume to vent. For that
>>> to work, the jacket wold need to allow diffuse air to enter in the
>>> front to vent out the back. I don't know what the designers of
>>> these vents believe how and what they are venting.

>> Water vapor?

Guess again. First the sweat must evaporate and then it must be
carried away by airflow... of which there is none if the jacket is
truly wind proof.

> Hot wet air - which takes more volume than colder air. Of course,
> how much expansion there is under that jacket, and how much that
> relatively narrow temperature range change affects it, is debatable.

What is causing the sweat to evaporate and where is the air for this
evaporation entering to escape through vents? Let's consider volume
when thinking about this. A human does not produce moist air. As I
mentioned, wool and synthetic knit-wear allows air to pass, albeit
slowly, the reason for using such materials to keep warm without
becoming soggy and becoming a liquid thermal emitter.

A windbreaker does little good if no loose long sleeved sweater is
worn underneath to break the conductive path from wind/water proof
jacket to rider skin. A windbreaker without a liner in the jacket or
on the rider is not an insulator. It is no better than duct tape
stuck to the body.

Jobst Brandt

Tom Nakashima

November 14th 07, 08:46 PM

> wrote in message
...
>
> A windbreaker does little good if no loose long sleeved sweater is
> worn underneath to break the conductive path from wind/water proof
> jacket to rider skin. A windbreaker without a liner in the jacket or
> on the rider is not an insulator. It is no better than duct tape
> stuck to the body.
>
> Jobst Brandt

Pretty funny JB,
just have the guy ride with a windbreaker and nothing but skin underneath
this winter if he's in doubt.
-tom

Steve Gravrock

November 14th 07, 08:56 PM

On 2007-11-14, > wrote:

> don't bundle up unless you are going out for an all day thingy in
> below freezing; an undershirt, a coolmax jersy, armwarmers and a vest-
> stay warm by riding harder- your system will adapt and you will not
> notice the temp; then in the spring when it starts to warm up you will
> notice you will be flying faster as it gets warmer. take a candybar or
> something for quick energy(heat) if you have to fix a flat and get
> chilled.

If you're dressed so that you have to ride hard to be warm, it's
vital to carry extra layers. Otherwise a mechanical failure that you
can't fix on the road could be life-threatening. The colder and wetter
it gets, the more true that is.

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

November 14th 07, 09:39 PM

Tom Nakashima writes:

>> A windbreaker does little good if no loose long sleeved sweater is
>> worn underneath to break the conductive path from wind/water proof
>> jacket to rider skin. A windbreaker without a liner in the jacket or
>> on the rider is not an insulator. It is no better than duct tape
>> stuck to the body.

> Pretty funny JB, just have the guy ride with a windbreaker and
> nothing but skin underneath this winter if he's in doubt.

I see plenty of riders with short sleeve jerseys putting on wind
breakers not aware that a wind breaker alone is no insulation from
cold air, especially if it begins to flap. I think you misinterpreted
what I said above.

Jobst Brandt

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

November 14th 07, 09:45 PM

Steve Gravrock writes:

>> don't bundle up unless you are going out for an all day thingy in
>> below freezing; an undershirt, a coolmax jersy, armwarmers and a
>> vest- stay warm by riding harder- your system will adapt and you
>> will not notice the temp; then in the spring when it starts to warm
>> up you will notice you will be flying faster as it gets
>> warmer. take a candybar or something for quick energy(heat) if you
>> have to fix a flat and get chilled.

> If you're dressed so that you have to ride hard to be warm, it's
> vital to carry extra layers. Otherwise a mechanical failure that you
> can't fix on the road could be life-threatening. The colder and
> wetter it gets, the more true that is.

I have ridden in cold weather, and with tubulars that don't change
easily when freezing cold.

http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/Switzerland/Tour_Reports/Ice_Princess_1963/

Jobst Brandt

Matt O'Toole

November 15th 07, 12:21 AM

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 21:39:37 -0500, Steve Sr. wrote:

> It is that time of year when the mercury is steadily falling. Even in
> North Carolina it has been getting cold enough lately to bring out the
> long sleeves and tights.
>
> I have a lot of the cold issues sorted out as far as what equipment to
> wear at what temperature. However, I still have one nagging problem.
>
> That problem is with my chest and inside of my arms getting cold in the
> front while my back sweats. I have tried different layering schemes but
> none seem to work very well. The layers consist of a long sleeve jersey,
> short sleeve jersey, and a thin fleece jacket if temperatures are cold
> enough.
>
> All of these seem to have the same problem. They appear to breathe too
> well in the front and not well enough in the back.
>
> One question that comes to mind is how tight should these layers be? I
> don't seem to have problem with my legs being cold or sweating. Is that
> because of the material that the tights are made of or is it because
> they are contacting every square inch of skin continuously?
>
> My torso layers are not real loose but are not nearly as tight as my
> tights? Could this be the problem with my torso getting cold in the
> front while sweating in the back?

Wear a vest -- it will keep the wind off your chest, but still breathe
enough to keep your back cool. You can even get one with a mesh back.

"Windfront" jerseys and jackets are available, which have windproof fabric
in front, but breathable fabric everywhere else. When it's really cold,
windfront tights are good too.

Tight fitting clothes will wick sweat better, and keep you warmer when
it's cold too.

Some cycling jerseys don't breathe or wick very well, because the fabric
is so plasticky and is coated with silkscreened logos. Wool or Capilene
or whatever may work better for you.

Matt O.

Tom Sherman[_2_]

November 15th 07, 03:56 AM

aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
> ...A windbreaker without a liner in the jacket or
> on the rider is not an insulator. It is no better than duct tape
> stuck to the body.

But the windbreaker is a lot easier to put on and take off! ;)

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"the grinning buddy bear carries a fork." - g.d.

Tom Nakashima

November 15th 07, 03:48 PM

"Tom Sherman" > wrote in message
...
> aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
>> ...A windbreaker without a liner in the jacket or
>> on the rider is not an insulator. It is no better than duct tape
>> stuck to the body.
>
> But the windbreaker is a lot easier to put on and take off! ;)
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> "the grinning buddy bear carries a fork." - g.d.

The duct tape also removes hair.
-tom

Ozark Bicycle

November 15th 07, 04:02 PM

On Nov 15, 8:48 am, "Tom Nakashima" > wrote:
> "Tom Sherman" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
> >> ...A windbreaker without a liner in the jacket or
> >> on the rider is not an insulator. It is no better than duct tape
> >> stuck to the body.
>
> > But the windbreaker is a lot easier to put on and take off! ;)
>
> > --
> > Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> > "the grinning buddy bear carries a fork." - g.d.
>
> The duct tape also removes hair.
> -tom

An aerodynamic advantage come the spring!

Jorg Lueke

November 15th 07, 04:45 PM

This is roughly what I do. Sometimes I do sweat a bit with the layers
but that hasn't bothered me, my biggest area of weakness are the toes.

50-60 Long Sleeve Jersey with Long Sleeve tee. Sweats over biking
shorts.
40-50 Long Sleeve Jersey with Long Sleeve tee and sweatshirt. Sweats
over biking shorts. Gloves. Wool or Double Socks.
30-40 Long Sleeve Jersey with Long Sleeve tee and sweatshirt wind-
proof or resistant jacket. Sweats over long underwear over biking
shorts. Baklava, Toe Warmers. Gloves. Wool or Double Socks.

rms[_2_]

November 15th 07, 05:36 PM

> I always keep my front torso warm and reduce arm/head/hand coverage to
> keep from overheating.

This makes zero sense to me; I dress exactly the opposite: concentrate on
keeping the extremities and face/neck warm, and just a tshirt or two to
cover the torso. Windchill strikes the extremities first, not the chest.

rms

Matt O'Toole

November 16th 07, 12:48 AM

On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 09:36:55 -0700, rms wrote:

>> I always keep my front torso warm and reduce arm/head/hand coverage to
>> keep from overheating.
>
> This makes zero sense to me; I dress exactly the opposite: concentrate on
> keeping the extremities and face/neck warm, and just a tshirt or two to
> cover the torso. Windchill strikes the extremities first, not the chest.

I agree, to a point. It takes a pretty cold day for me to be not warm
enough with 1-2 layers under a windbreaker, but keeping my hands, feet,
and head warm becomes a challenge below about 40F.

I don't reach for the fleece or windfront tights until it's below freezing.

Matt O.

Tim McNamara

November 16th 07, 01:47 AM

In article >,
Matt O'Toole > wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Nov 2007 09:36:55 -0700, rms wrote:
>
> >> I always keep my front torso warm and reduce arm/head/hand
> >> coverage to keep from overheating.
> >
> > This makes zero sense to me; I dress exactly the opposite:
> > concentrate on keeping the extremities and face/neck warm, and just
> > a tshirt or two to cover the torso. Windchill strikes the
> > extremities first, not the chest.
>
> I agree, to a point. It takes a pretty cold day for me to be not
> warm enough with 1-2 layers under a windbreaker, but keeping my
> hands, feet, and head warm becomes a challenge below about 40F.

There's always a danger of these threads becoming machofests about "oh
yeah? You wuss! I ride if it's above -20!" I'm glad we've avoided
that. Basically, if my water bottles are gonna freeze, I stay home.
Macho I ain't. Winter becomes a time for other interests like getting
my guitar chops back up to snuff, reading, and doing some light strength
training, core strengthening and stretching. At 48, I find I feel much
better on the early spring rides if I do more general fitness stuff in
the winter. It's easy to stay warm in the house! But around here, it's
below 45 on average for nearly 5 months a year.

For cold rides, I find that a thin polypro balaclava works really well
keeping my head, ears and neck warm below 40. I have a think skullcap
for temps from 40-50. The traditional winter cycling hat also works
really well, unless you wear a helmet and then it might be problematic.
Hands and feet are much harder to manage. I have four sets of cold
weather gloves for different temperature ranges. I can do pretty well
with my hands until the gloves get soaked with perspiration.

I've struggled with keeping my feet warm. The old fleece-lined road
shoes of yore are long gone and those were great- light and warm, sort
of like Ugg boots for bicycling but not as bulky. I find that shoe
covers just don't work that well for me. I bought a pair of Lake winter
boots and those help quite a bit. My feet will be cold by the end of a
couple hour ride at 40F, but with cycling shoes and neoprene booties I
could only ride about an hour at those temps before my feet were too
cold for comfort.

> I don't reach for the fleece or windfront tights until it's below
> freezing.

I wear my windfronts below about 40, above that and they are just too
warm. I have a pair of Gekko Gear (now Col d'Lizard) Powerstrech 100
tights and they are really good- very light, very warm, wind resistant
and durable.

http://www.coldlizard.com/cgi/wc.dll?GEKKO~catalog~DETAIL~34

dustoyevsky@mac.com

November 16th 07, 04:14 AM

On Nov 14, 7:35 am, wrote:
> If it's wind-proof then vents don't have any effect other than
> psychosomatic, the body producing no gas volume to vent. For that to
> work, the jacket wold need to allow diffuse air to enter in the front
> to vent out the back. I don't know what the designers of these vents
> believe how and what they are venting.

My current fave, just a nylon "waterproof when new, more or less"
black shell, vents up the sleeves, besides the zipper at the neck. It
has velcro wrist bands that can be adjusted "loose" to let a nice flow
of air in, and I leave the front zipper pretty well closed to keep the
chest and neck warm. It's a little billowy, not too bad. It has a
bottom cord also, so it can vent out the bottom or stay closed (with
some adjustability there too) for more warmth. Tighten up the cuffs,
the arms are kept warm(er) with the general included heat production.
Colder weather, add layers. Doesn't take much usually for our moderate
Texas winters, a long-sleeved tee shirt under a jersey is often too
much. Yeah, if the jacket lies right on the skin of the arms you can
feel the outside temp but to say it does "nothing" is wrong-- . It
also has a button-down hood attached so if I ever get caught in a Blue
Norther ( http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/BB/ybb1.html
) I'll at least have something besides the vented helmet to put on my
head. If it's not cold enough for the shell, just a jersey and arm
warmers is often enough, approx., or I wish I'd worn my vest, see
below. Maybe a tee shirt under the jersey. I'm not very skinny and
others in the group usually wear more than me. Unless you think that's
"psychosomatic", too <g>.

For colder weather (or climate, in other places), such as my
Midwestern ("GFN") New Year's Day century on a 42/17 fixed gear, where
max. temp for the day(in town, not out in the countryside where I was
riding) only briefly touched 19 deg F, there's a much different story
IRT "how to stay warm". There, I seldom used my mesh-back vest; here
it works well fairly often, depending on the vagaries of the year.
I'll confess to not having a temperature-indexed clothing schedule
posted on the refrigerator. Sometimes I have to go back home and try
again. --D-y

Jorg Lueke

November 16th 07, 06:25 AM

On Nov 15, 6:47 pm, Tim McNamara > wrote:

> I've struggled with keeping my feet warm. The old fleece-lined road
> shoes of yore are long gone and those were great- light and warm, sort
> of like Ugg boots for bicycling but not as bulky. I find that shoe
> covers just don't work that well for me. I bought a pair of Lake winter
> boots and those help quite a bit. My feet will be cold by the end of a
> couple hour ride at 40F, but with cycling shoes and neoprene booties I
> could only ride about an hour at those temps before my feet were too
> cold for comfort.
>
Have you tried the toe warmers they sell for hunters? I had the same
problem with my feet but with those puppies I can easily go in the
25-40 degree range.

Tom Sherman[_2_]

November 16th 07, 09:12 AM

Tim McNamara wrote:
> ...
> I've struggled with keeping my feet warm. The old fleece-lined road
> shoes of yore are long gone and those were great- light and warm, sort
> of like Ugg boots for bicycling but not as bulky. I find that shoe
> covers just don't work that well for me. I bought a pair of Lake winter
> boots and those help quite a bit. My feet will be cold by the end of a
> couple hour ride at 40F, but with cycling shoes and neoprene booties I
> could only ride about an hour at those temps before my feet were too
> cold for comfort....

The best I have found for cold weather riding is the combination of SPuD
sandals, synthetic inner sock, heavy wool middle sock and windproof
outer sock. Much warmer than regular cycling shoes with the neoprene covers.

Too bad there is not a SPuD compatible Sorel Caribou. :(

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"the grinning buddy bear carries a fork." - g.d.

Tim McNamara

November 16th 07, 04:16 PM

In article >,
Tom Sherman > wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > ... I've struggled with keeping my feet warm. The old fleece-lined
> > road shoes of yore are long gone and those were great- light and
> > warm, sort of like Ugg boots for bicycling but not as bulky. I
> > find that shoe covers just don't work that well for me. I bought a
> > pair of Lake winter boots and those help quite a bit. My feet will
> > be cold by the end of a couple hour ride at 40F, but with cycling
> > shoes and neoprene booties I could only ride about an hour at those
> > temps before my feet were too cold for comfort....
>
> The best I have found for cold weather riding is the combination of
> SPuD sandals, synthetic inner sock, heavy wool middle sock and
> windproof outer sock. Much warmer than regular cycling shoes with the
> neoprene covers.
>
> Too bad there is not a SPuD compatible Sorel Caribou. :(

I have a pair of Lake sandals but have not tried them at all with heavy
socks in cold weather. I haven't really liked them under any
circumstances, actually- the fit is weird. My other Lake shoes fit
really well (well enough that almost all my cycling shoes are Lakes),
but the sandals don't.

dustoyevsky@mac.com

November 16th 07, 04:30 PM

On Nov 16, 2:12 am, Tom Sherman >
wrote:
> The best I have found for cold weather riding is the combination of SPuD
> sandals, synthetic inner sock, heavy wool middle sock and windproof
> outer sock. Much warmer than regular cycling shoes with the neoprene covers.
>
> Too bad there is not a SPuD compatible Sorel Caribou. :(

Because when you add socks to snug-fitting cycling shoes, you take
away the air gap, "trapped air providing insulation".

More old Boy Scout lore: winter boots need to fit loose with the socks
intended for use.

What about snow/ice clogging up Spud or other clipless pedal/cleat
setups? I carried my house key in an outer pocket to clear out the old
white plastic Sidi cleats for clips and straps-style pedals back in
the day. No snow and ice riding since the conversion <g>. --D-y

bicycle_disciple

November 17th 07, 01:26 AM

datakoll

November 17th 07, 02:22 AM

On Nov 14, 8:35 am, wrote:
> someone writes:
> > I have to agree that a windstopper does the trick here. I keep the
> > wind from my arms and torso and make sure there are some vents on
> > the back. In general it's very hard to keep dry AND warm at the
> > same time but some time ago I went completely overboard (it looked
> > cool) and bought a 170$ membrane/windproof jacket that seems to
> > allow sweating and keep wind out while keeping my back cool. Never
> > had a problem since.
>
> If it's wind-proof then vents don't have any effect other than
> psychosomatic, the body producing no gas volume to vent. For that to
> work, the jacket wold need to allow diffuse air to enter in the front
> to vent out the back. I don't know what the designers of these vents
> believe how and what they are venting.
>
> Jobst Brandt

Jobst, a garmet vent is a valve not a squirrel cage fan: think
incremental.

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

November 17th 07, 02:45 AM

Gene Daniels writes:

>>> I have to agree that a windstopper does the trick here. I keep
>>> the wind from my arms and torso and make sure there are some vents
>>> on the back. In general it's very hard to keep dry AND warm at
>>> the same time but some time ago I went completely overboard (it
>>> looked cool) and bought a 170$ membrane/windproof jacket that
>>> seems to allow sweating and keep wind out while keeping my back
>>> cool. Never had a problem since.

>> If it's wind-proof then vents don't have any effect other than
>> psychosomatic, the body producing no gas volume to vent. For that
>> to work, the jacket wold need to allow diffuse air to enter in the
>> front to vent out the back. I don't know what the designers of
>> these vents believe how and what they are venting.

> Jobst, a garmet vent is a valve not a squirrel cage fan: think
> incremental.

So? Put a Presta valve on your jacket. For something to escape from
a vent or valve, there must be a source, and as I said, no volumes of
gas are being generated and no air is entering the front of the
jacket. Those vents don't even lift while riding. Next time you
follow a rider with one of these garments, see if the vent flaps are
opening to let something out.

Jacket vents are like slanted windows on boats, eyewash to convince
the observer that the boat is so fast it leans forward as in old
pictures taken with a slow focal plane shutter... as in Barney
Oldfield.

http://www.rit.edu/~andpph/photofile-b/lartigue-1.jpg

Jobst Brandt

datakoll

November 17th 07, 02:52 AM

On Nov 13, 9:39 pm, Steve Sr. > wrote:
> Hello,
>
> It is that time of year when the mercury is steadily falling. Even in
> North Carolina it has been getting cold enough lately to bring out the
> long sleeves and tights.
>
> I have a lot of the cold issues sorted out as far as what equipment to
> wear at what temperature. However, I still have one nagging problem.
>
> That problem is with my chest and inside of my arms getting cold in
> the front while my back sweats. I have tried different layering
> schemes but none seem to work very well. The layers consist of a long
> sleeve jersey, short sleeve jersey, and a thin fleece jacket if
> temperatures are cold enough.
>
> All of these seem to have the same problem. They appear to breathe too
> well in the front and not well enough in the back.
>
> One question that comes to mind is how tight should these layers be? I
> don't seem to have problem with my legs being cold or sweating. Is
> that because of the material that the tights are made of or is it
> because they are contacting every square inch of skin continuously?
>
> My torso layers are not real loose but are not nearly as tight as my
> tights? Could this be the problem with my torso getting cold in the
> front while sweating in the back?
>
> Thanks for any insight.
>
> Steve

"bought a 170$ membrane/windproof jacket that seems to allow sweating
and keep wind out while keeping my back cool. Never had a problem
since."
Yup. Nothing keeps you warmer than cubic money. Blame this on Lindblad
and the wannabe mountaineering set who SKI and apre'.
However, newspaper duz do the trick.
Allow me. Go for inexpensive ski wear.
Ski gloves
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=24505284&memberId=12500226&storeId=226&catalogId=40000000226&langId=-1
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=77262&memberId=12500226&storeId=226&catalogId=40000000226&langId=-1
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=39270664&memberId=12500226
dry only

ski balaclava
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=77269&memberId=12500226&storeId=226&catalogId=40000000226&langId=-1
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=77271&memberId=12500226&storeId=226&catalogId=40000000226&langId=-1
Ski undies
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=19296&memberId=12500226&storeId=226&catalogId=40000000226&langId=-1
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=19313&memberId=12500226
Ski jacket
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=39297142&memberId=12500226&storeId=226&catalogId=40000000226&langId=-1
Ski socks

http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=39226161&memberId=12500226
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=2117&memberId=12500226&storeId=226&catalogId=40000000226&langId=-1
Polar tech
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=19313&memberId=12500226
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?memberId=12500226&productId=32399233
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=32399196&memberId=12500226
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?categoryId=61624&storeId=226&catalogId=40000000226
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=39270664&memberId=12500226
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=21610112&memberId=12500226
excellent AAA majeur W
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=39231207&memberId=12500226
and a

http://www.nashbar.com/results.cfm?subcategory=60001209&category=6000137&browse=&storetype=&estoreid=&brand=&searchbox=&start=1&orderby=price1&pagename=Shop%20by%20Subcat%3A%20Tights%20%26%20Pa nts

gore-tex sox look like a winner for wet conditions.
This wardrobe will get you thru to Spring.

Tom Sherman[_2_]

November 17th 07, 02:52 AM

wrote:
> On Nov 16, 2:12 am, Tom Sherman >
> wrote:
>> The best I have found for cold weather riding is the combination of SPuD
>> sandals, synthetic inner sock, heavy wool middle sock and windproof
>> outer sock. Much warmer than regular cycling shoes with the neoprene covers.
>>
>> Too bad there is not a SPuD compatible Sorel Caribou. :(
>
> Because when you add socks to snug-fitting cycling shoes, you take
> away the air gap, "trapped air providing insulation".
>
> More old Boy Scout lore: winter boots need to fit loose with the socks
> intended for use.
>
> What about snow/ice clogging up Spud or other clipless pedal/cleat
> setups? I carried my house key in an outer pocket to clear out the old
> white plastic Sidi cleats for clips and straps-style pedals back in
> the day. No snow and ice riding since the conversion <g>. --D-y

When living in Central Illinois, there were a lot of cold late fall to
early spring days when the roads were clear of snow and ice, therefore
there were issues with cold feet but not SPuD fouling.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"the grinning buddy bear carries a fork." - g.d.

Tom Sherman[_2_]

November 17th 07, 02:56 AM

datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
> ...
> http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=24505284&memberId=12500226&storeId=226&catalogId=40000000226&langId=-1
> http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=77262&memberId=12500226&storeId=226&catalogId=40000000226&langId=-1
> http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=39270664&memberId=12500226
> dry only
>
> ski balaclava
> http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=77269&memberId=12500226&storeId=226&catalogId=40000000226&langId=-1
> http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=77271&memberId=12500226&storeId=226&catalogId=40000000226&langId=-1
> Ski undies
> http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=19296&memberId=12500226&storeId=226&catalogId=40000000226&langId=-1
> http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=19313&memberId=12500226
> Ski jacket
> http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=39297142&memberId=12500226&storeId=226&catalogId=40000000226&langId=-1
> Ski socks
>
> http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=39226161&memberId=12500226
> http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=2117&memberId=12500226&storeId=226&catalogId=40000000226&langId=-1
> Polar tech
> http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=19313&memberId=12500226
> http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?memberId=12500226&productId=32399233
> http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=32399196&memberId=12500226
> http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?categoryId=61624&storeId=226&catalogId=40000000226
> http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=39270664&memberId=12500226
> http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=21610112&memberId=12500226
> excellent AAA majeur W
> http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=39231207&memberId=12500226
> and a...

Holy Campmor link OVERLOAD!!! ;)

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"the grinning buddy bear carries a fork." - g.d.

datakoll

November 17th 07, 03:15 AM

doning those ski clothes allows a nice warm nap in a snowdrift under a
blue sky and warm sun at around 25 degrees, no wind.
this is the light winter wear setup.
If you look thru campmor's long underwear section, see 3-4 different
grades
also appearing in the ski duds section as $150 $250 like that. Looks
and price are explanatory. These levels are for chill factors of 25
below and lower like 80 mph at 10 degrees cloudy day or zoning out
watching aurora at Poker Flats

datakoll

November 17th 07, 03:38 AM

On Nov 16, 9:15 pm, datakoll > wrote:
> doning those ski clothes allows a nice warm nap in a snowdrift under a
> blue sky and warm sun at around 25 degrees, no wind.
> this is the light winter wear setup.
> If you look thru campmor's long underwear section, see 3-4 different
> grades
> also appearing in the ski duds section as $150 $250 like that. Looks
> and price are explanatory. These levels are for chill factors of 25
> below and lower like 80 mph at 10 degrees cloudy day or zoning out
> watching aurora at Poker Flats

and don't forget to keep your lungs warm

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/4JG30

the uninitiated cotten socks people will not undertstand what the ski
whooohaaa is about
PLASTIC CLOTHING IS NOT COTTEN
COTTEN IS LIKE WEARING A BURLAP SACK

Jay Beattie

November 17th 07, 04:45 AM

On Nov 16, 5:45 pm, wrote:
> Gene Daniels writes:
> >>> I have to agree that a windstopper does the trick here. I keep
> >>> the wind from my arms and torso and make sure there are some vents
> >>> on the back. In general it's very hard to keep dry AND warm at
> >>> the same time but some time ago I went completely overboard (it
> >>> looked cool) and bought a 170$ membrane/windproof jacket that
> >>> seems to allow sweating and keep wind out while keeping my back
> >>> cool. Never had a problem since.
> >> If it's wind-proof then vents don't have any effect other than
> >> psychosomatic, the body producing no gas volume to vent. For that
> >> to work, the jacket wold need to allow diffuse air to enter in the
> >> front to vent out the back. I don't know what the designers of
> >> these vents believe how and what they are venting.
> > Jobst, a garmet vent is a valve not a squirrel cage fan: think
> > incremental.
>
> So? Put a Presta valve on your jacket. For something to escape from
> a vent or valve, there must be a source, and as I said, no volumes of
> gas are being generated and no air is entering the front of the
> jacket. Those vents don't even lift while riding. Next time you
> follow a rider with one of these garments, see if the vent flaps are
> opening to let something out.
>
> Jacket vents are like slanted windows on boats, eyewash to convince
> the observer that the boat is so fast it leans forward as in old
> pictures taken with a slow focal plane shutter... as in Barney
> Oldfield.

Heat escapes. The pit zips on my rain jacket are over a foot long. I
can feel the difference when they're open or closed, particularly if I
am wearing a thin (versus a thick) jersey underneath. -- Jay Beattie.

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

November 17th 07, 05:52 AM

Jay Beattie writes:

>>>>> I have to agree that a windstopper does the trick here. I keep
>>>>> the wind from my arms and torso and make sure there are some
>>>>> vents on the back. In general it's very hard to keep dry AND
>>>>> warm at the same time but some time ago I went completely
>>>>> overboard (it looked cool) and bought a 170$ membrane/windproof
>>>>> jacket that seems to allow sweating and keep wind out while
>>>>> keeping my back cool. Never had a problem since.

>>>> If it's wind-proof then vents don't have any effect other than
>>>> psychosomatic, the body producing no gas volume to vent. For
>>>> that to work, the jacket wold need to allow diffuse air to enter
>>>> in the front to vent out the back. I don't know what the
>>>> designers of these vents believe how and what they are venting.

>>> Jobst, a garmet vent is a valve not a squirrel cage fan: think
>>> incremental.

>> So? Put a Presta valve on your jacket. For something to escape
>> from a vent or valve, there must be a source, and as I said, no
>> volumes of gas are being generated and no air is entering the front
>> of the jacket. Those vents don't even lift while riding. Next
>> time you follow a rider with one of these garments, see if the vent
>> flaps are opening to let something out.

>> Jacket vents are like slanted windows on boats, eyewash to convince
>> the observer that the boat is so fast it leans forward as in old
>> pictures taken with a slow focal plane shutter... as in Barney
>> Oldfield.

> Heat escapes. The pit zips on my rain jacket are over a foot long.
> I can feel the difference when they're open or closed, particularly
> if I am wearing a thin (versus a thick) jersey underneath.

At this point I think thermodynamics is appropriate. Heat travels by
convection, conduction and radiation, the first means being by far the
principal one for body heat. Surface evaporation can only take place
if dry air passes over sweaty skin. A warm body generates no
significant gas so that if clothing does not allow air to enter from
the headwind of a bicyclist, no air will exit from the rear of that
garment, evaporation being miserably low and even slower when inside
an enclosure. Do not suppose that the body produces steam just
because in cold air, moist air blowing across ones sweaty skin makes
visible water vapor. That is convection and water vapor condensation.

Jobst Brandt

Ozark Bicycle

November 17th 07, 12:49 PM

On Nov 16, 9:45 pm, Jay Beattie > wrote:
> On Nov 16, 5:45 pm, wrote:
>
>
>
> > Gene Daniels writes:
> > >>> I have to agree that a windstopper does the trick here. I keep
> > >>> the wind from my arms and torso and make sure there are some vents
> > >>> on the back. In general it's very hard to keep dry AND warm at
> > >>> the same time but some time ago I went completely overboard (it
> > >>> looked cool) and bought a 170$ membrane/windproof jacket that
> > >>> seems to allow sweating and keep wind out while keeping my back
> > >>> cool. Never had a problem since.
> > >> If it's wind-proof then vents don't have any effect other than
> > >> psychosomatic, the body producing no gas volume to vent. For that
> > >> to work, the jacket wold need to allow diffuse air to enter in the
> > >> front to vent out the back. I don't know what the designers of
> > >> these vents believe how and what they are venting.
> > > Jobst, a garmet vent is a valve not a squirrel cage fan: think
> > > incremental.
>
> > So? Put a Presta valve on your jacket. For something to escape from
> > a vent or valve, there must be a source, and as I said, no volumes of
> > gas are being generated and no air is entering the front of the
> > jacket. Those vents don't even lift while riding. Next time you
> > follow a rider with one of these garments, see if the vent flaps are
> > opening to let something out.
>
> > Jacket vents are like slanted windows on boats, eyewash to convince
> > the observer that the boat is so fast it leans forward as in old
> > pictures taken with a slow focal plane shutter... as in Barney
> > Oldfield.
>
> Heat escapes. The pit zips on my rain jacket are over a foot long. I
> can feel the difference when they're open or closed, particularly if I
> am wearing a thin (versus a thick) jersey underneath. -- Jay Beattie.

It's all an illusion and we are all illuded. Papa Brandt sez so!

datakoll

November 17th 07, 02:15 PM

On Nov 17, 6:49 am, Ozark Bicycle
> wrote:
> On Nov 16, 9:45 pm, Jay Beattie > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 16, 5:45 pm, wrote:
>
> > > Gene Daniels writes:
> > > >>> I have to agree that a windstopper does the trick here. I keep
> > > >>> the wind from my arms and torso and make sure there are some vents
> > > >>> on the back. In general it's very hard to keep dry AND warm at
> > > >>> the same time but some time ago I went completely overboard (it
> > > >>> looked cool) and bought a 170$ membrane/windproof jacket that
> > > >>> seems to allow sweating and keep wind out while keeping my back
> > > >>> cool. Never had a problem since.
> > > >> If it's wind-proof then vents don't have any effect other than
> > > >> psychosomatic, the body producing no gas volume to vent. For that
> > > >> to work, the jacket wold need to allow diffuse air to enter in the
> > > >> front to vent out the back. I don't know what the designers of
> > > >> these vents believe how and what they are venting.
> > > > Jobst, a garmet vent is a valve not a squirrel cage fan: think
> > > > incremental.
>
> > > So? Put a Presta valve on your jacket. For something to escape from
> > > a vent or valve, there must be a source, and as I said, no volumes of
> > > gas are being generated and no air is entering the front of the
> > > jacket. Those vents don't even lift while riding. Next time you
> > > follow a rider with one of these garments, see if the vent flaps are
> > > opening to let something out.
>
> > > Jacket vents are like slanted windows on boats, eyewash to convince
> > > the observer that the boat is so fast it leans forward as in old
> > > pictures taken with a slow focal plane shutter... as in Barney
> > > Oldfield.
>
> > Heat escapes. The pit zips on my rain jacket are over a foot long. I
> > can feel the difference when they're open or closed, particularly if I
> > am wearing a thin (versus a thick) jersey underneath. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> It's all an illusion and we are all illuded. Papa Brandt sez so!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I did not write that! DUH

JB outlines the layering system, not chickens, with hydrophobic
fabrics using vents/zippered openings for heat reduction thru air flow
control. Vents, again not chicken, for the aware user allow heat
dumping at or before a too hot threshold.
Paddling shirts are equipped with a mesh vent across the upper back
under a cape like cover. Antique raincoats are sewn like that - B/W
films, Brit detectives, M15, Douglas Fairbanks, Charlie Chan

http://www.kokatat.com/product_detail.asp?code=dsh

itsa game. one writes excrement floats, water runs down hill but in an
odd way so you disagree thus ..hezah blockhead nyah nyah

Tom Sherman[_2_]

November 17th 07, 02:43 PM

datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
> On Nov 17, 6:49 am, Ozark Bicycle
> > wrote:
>> On Nov 16, 9:45 pm, Jay Beattie > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
Why is Google inserting all this empty space?
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 16, 5:45 pm, wrote:
>>>> Gene Daniels writes:
>>>>>>> I have to agree that a windstopper does the trick here. I keep
>>>>>>> the wind from my arms and torso and make sure there are some vents
>>>>>>> on the back. In general it's very hard to keep dry AND warm at
>>>>>>> the same time but some time ago I went completely overboard (it
>>>>>>> looked cool) and bought a 170$ membrane/windproof jacket that
>>>>>>> seems to allow sweating and keep wind out while keeping my back
>>>>>>> cool. Never had a problem since.
>>>>>> If it's wind-proof then vents don't have any effect other than
>>>>>> psychosomatic, the body producing no gas volume to vent. For that
>>>>>> to work, the jacket wold need to allow diffuse air to enter in the
>>>>>> front to vent out the back. I don't know what the designers of
>>>>>> these vents believe how and what they are venting.
>>>>> Jobst, a garmet vent is a valve not a squirrel cage fan: think
>>>>> incremental.
>>>> So? Put a Presta valve on your jacket. For something to escape from
>>>> a vent or valve, there must be a source, and as I said, no volumes of
>>>> gas are being generated and no air is entering the front of the
>>>> jacket. Those vents don't even lift while riding. Next time you
>>>> follow a rider with one of these garments, see if the vent flaps are
>>>> opening to let something out.
>>>> Jacket vents are like slanted windows on boats, eyewash to convince
>>>> the observer that the boat is so fast it leans forward as in old
>>>> pictures taken with a slow focal plane shutter... as in Barney
>>>> Oldfield.
>>> Heat escapes. The pit zips on my rain jacket are over a foot long. I
>>> can feel the difference when they're open or closed, particularly if I
>>> am wearing a thin (versus a thick) jersey underneath. -- Jay Beattie.
>> It's all an illusion and we are all illuded. Papa Brandt sez so!- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> I did not write that! DUH
>
> JB outlines the layering system, not chickens, with hydrophobic
> fabrics using vents/zippered openings for heat reduction thru air flow
> control. Vents, again not chicken, for the aware user allow heat
> dumping at or before a too hot threshold.

The image of Jobst descending an Alpine pass covered in chickens for
warmth is just too weird.

> Paddling shirts are equipped with a mesh vent across the upper back
> under a cape like cover. Antique raincoats are sewn like that - B/W
> films, Brit detectives, M15, Douglas Fairbanks, Charlie Chan
>
> http://www.kokatat.com/product_detail.asp?code=dsh
>
> itsa game. one writes excrement floats, water runs down hill but in an
> odd way so you disagree thus ..hezah blockhead nyah nyah

The amount of jealousy towards Jobst Brandt displayed on "wreck
bicycles" is astounding.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"the grinning buddy bear carries a fork." - g.d.

dustoyevsky@mac.com

November 17th 07, 03:21 PM

On Nov 16, 7:52 pm, Tom Sherman >
wrote:
> When living in Central Illinois, there were a lot of cold late fall to
> early spring days when the roads were clear of snow and ice, therefore
> there were issues with cold feet but not SPuD fouling.

Where I lived, in Bloomington (near Peoria, not Indiana) they salted
and cindered the roads-- plus the dirt from the lingering idiocy of
fall plowing. Along with the usual drizzly, dank days, and a stiff
wind from the southwest, snowpack was preferable even to "dry" (not
often), (but usually dirty, with flints) roads, except for snow
jamming the cogs, one reason fixed was used.

Well, something else I had to give up, I guess <g>. --D-y

datakoll

November 17th 07, 03:27 PM

ODD, no readily available image of a raincoat back. memory has Michael
Caine, Peter Sellers, David Niven (hmmm I'm not sure Niven ever stood
around in the rain), NYC detectives standing around getting coffee and
doughnut order together while the body cools.
but no image, all fronts.
Cowboy shirts pattern a triangular back shoulder flap

datakoll

November 17th 07, 03:34 PM

On Nov 17, 9:21 am, " > wrote:
> On Nov 16, 7:52 pm, Tom Sherman >
> wrote:
>
> > When living in Central Illinois, there were a lot of cold late fall to
> > early spring days when the roads were clear of snow and ice, therefore
> > there were issues with cold feet but not SPuD fouling.
>
> Where I lived, in Bloomington (near Peoria, not Indiana) they salted
> and cindered the roads-- plus the dirt from the lingering idiocy of
> fall plowing. Along with the usual drizzly, dank days, and a stiff
> wind from the southwest, snowpack was preferable even to "dry" (not
> often), (but usually dirty, with flints) roads, except for snow
> jamming the cogs, one reason fixed was used.
>
> Well, something else I had to give up, I guess <g>. --D-y

expletive deleted. My lungs developed pnemonia from melting snow
laying the snow's thick dirt cover onto the street.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/4JG30

Tom Sherman[_2_]

November 17th 07, 04:55 PM

wrote:
> On Nov 16, 7:52 pm, Tom Sherman >
> wrote:
>> When living in Central Illinois, there were a lot of cold late fall to
>> early spring days when the roads were clear of snow and ice, therefore
>> there were issues with cold feet but not SPuD fouling.
>
> Where I lived, in Bloomington (near Peoria, not Indiana)

So you were not a Normal person?

> they salted
> and cindered the roads-- plus the dirt from the lingering idiocy of
> fall plowing. Along with the usual drizzly, dank days, and a stiff
> wind from the southwest, snowpack was preferable even to "dry" (not
> often), (but usually dirty, with flints) roads, except for snow
> jamming the cogs, one reason fixed was used....

I found this to be true of only the major roads in B-N and C-U. Once one
got out into The Great Corn and Soybean Lands, the roads were clear for
much of the winter.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"the grinning buddy bear carries a fork." - g.d.

dustoyevsky@mac.com

November 17th 07, 05:39 PM

On Nov 17, 9:55 am, Tom Sherman >
wrote:
> wrote:
> > On Nov 16, 7:52 pm, Tom Sherman >
> > wrote:
> >> When living in Central Illinois, there were a lot of cold late fall to
> >> early spring days when the roads were clear of snow and ice, therefore
> >> there were issues with cold feet but not SPuD fouling.
>
> > Where I lived, in Bloomington (near Peoria, not Indiana)
>
> So you were not a Normal person?
>
> > they salted
> > and cindered the roads-- plus the dirt from the lingering idiocy of
> > fall plowing. Along with the usual drizzly, dank days, and a stiff
> > wind from the southwest, snowpack was preferable even to "dry" (not
> > often), (but usually dirty, with flints) roads, except for snow
> > jamming the cogs, one reason fixed was used....
>
> I found this to be true of only the major roads in B-N and C-U. Once one
> got out into The Great Corn and Soybean Lands, the roads were clear for
> much of the winter.

Not only lived in Normal, was a charter member of the Normal Racing
Team (NRT), sponsored by the Vitesse bike shop.

Ever go to (or much more likely, drive through) Oblong? (you know what
comes next) (newspaper wedding anouncement) (some variation of):
"Oblong Man Marries Normal Woman".

Ok, ok, the roads: Even when dry in Winter, v. dirty along the edges
anywhere near town(s). And intersections, which meant nearly every
mile everywhere on the section roads. In the hot days of the summer,
melted tar. Intersections (every mile) very dangerous when the corn
was up, stop sign or no. There was some good riding there but one can
do better and I have <g>.

CU, I really only know from playing the Red Lion and Ruby Gulch. And
one close-in, city-street crit. Closest thing to San Francisco
(remember era, please) available. Not the dull grey mentality of BN,
for sure.

Loved the snowpack, when available. The snowed-in fields did a nice
job of slowing the predatory farm dogs, although their "loner,
cripple" hunting instincts were put on full alert power at the same
time.

Back OnT: Wool socks (probably synth or cotton first layer), Sidi
boots (turquoise), and those little toeclip caps made of nylon mat'l,
plus Bleumels with a front flap all helped, but indeed some form of
real winter riding shoes should have been much better.

I had a pair of "boxing glove" ski mittens, deer skin over acrylic
pile, never had cold hands. Another reason not to bother with shifters
<g>. --D-y

Patrick Lamb

November 17th 07, 06:09 PM

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 02:12:12 -0600, Tom Sherman
> wrote:

>Tim McNamara wrote:
>> ...
>> I've struggled with keeping my feet warm. The old fleece-lined road
>> shoes of yore are long gone and those were great- light and warm, sort
>> of like Ugg boots for bicycling but not as bulky. I find that shoe
>> covers just don't work that well for me. I bought a pair of Lake winter
>> boots and those help quite a bit. My feet will be cold by the end of a
>> couple hour ride at 40F, but with cycling shoes and neoprene booties I
>> could only ride about an hour at those temps before my feet were too
>> cold for comfort....
>
>The best I have found for cold weather riding is the combination of SPuD
>sandals, synthetic inner sock, heavy wool middle sock and windproof
>outer sock. Much warmer than regular cycling shoes with the neoprene covers.
>
>Too bad there is not a SPuD compatible Sorel Caribou. :(

Too bad they don't make SPuD sandals larger than a tiny 47. :/

Pat

Email address works as is.

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org

November 17th 07, 08:20 PM

Gene Daniels writes:

> ODD, no readily available image of a raincoat back. Memory has
> Michael Caine, Peter Sellers, David Niven (hmmm I'm not sure Niven
> ever stood around in the rain), NYC detectives standing around
> getting coffee and doughnut order together while the body cools) but
> no image, all fronts. Cowboy shirts pattern a triangular back
> shoulder flap.

OK. You could also wonder why many current shoes have a welt around
the ankle opening... on the outside as though it were padding for the
foot. It is pure implication. Boots with flexible upper edges,
superficially may look like that, but they actually flex to make
closure against dirt and water intrusion, but it sure makes oxfords
look more powerful.

http://www.nunnbush.com/shop-nb/shoes/casual/c01-p0.html

Jobst Brandt

Tom Sherman[_2_]

November 17th 07, 11:15 PM

wrote:
> On Nov 17, 9:55 am, Tom Sherman >
> wrote:
>> wrote:
>>> On Nov 16, 7:52 pm, Tom Sherman >
>>> wrote:
>>>> When living in Central Illinois, there were a lot of cold late fall to
>>>> early spring days when the roads were clear of snow and ice, therefore
>>>> there were issues with cold feet but not SPuD fouling.
>>> Where I lived, in Bloomington (near Peoria, not Indiana)
>> So you were not a Normal person?
>>
>>> they salted
>>> and cindered the roads-- plus the dirt from the lingering idiocy of
>>> fall plowing. Along with the usual drizzly, dank days, and a stiff
>>> wind from the southwest, snowpack was preferable even to "dry" (not
>>> often), (but usually dirty, with flints) roads, except for snow
>>> jamming the cogs, one reason fixed was used....
>> I found this to be true of only the major roads in B-N and C-U. Once one
>> got out into The Great Corn and Soybean Lands, the roads were clear for
>> much of the winter.
>
> Not only lived in Normal, was a charter member of the Normal Racing
> Team (NRT), sponsored by the Vitesse bike shop.
>
> Ever go to (or much more likely, drive through) Oblong? (you know what
> comes next) (newspaper wedding anouncement) (some variation of):
> "Oblong Man Marries Normal Woman".

I used to drive from B-N to Vincennes on a semi-regular basis, so I have
been through Oblong quite a few times. I was not a Normal person, I
lived in Bloomington.

> Ok, ok, the roads: Even when dry in Winter, v. dirty along the edges
> anywhere near town(s). And intersections, which meant nearly every
> mile everywhere on the section roads. In the hot days of the summer,
> melted tar. Intersections (every mile) very dangerous when the corn
> was up, stop sign or no. There was some good riding there but one can
> do better and I have <g>.

But the corn blocks some of the wind. I found the biggest problem with
intersections was all the loose chip seal that piles up from vehicles
braking. Cross traffic was not much of an issue, being light and easily
heard from a distance.

> CU, I really only know from playing the Red Lion and Ruby Gulch. And
> one close-in, city-street crit. Closest thing to San Francisco
> (remember era, please) available. Not the dull grey mentality of BN,
> for sure.

I have a bicycle that can find its way around C-U and the
Champaign-Piatt Counties area by itself.

> Loved the snowpack, when available. The snowed-in fields did a nice
> job of slowing the predatory farm dogs, although their "loner,
> cripple" hunting instincts were put on full alert power at the same
> time.
>
> Back OnT: Wool socks (probably synth or cotton first layer), Sidi
> boots (turquoise), and those little toeclip caps made of nylon mat'l,
> plus Bleumels with a front flap all helped, but indeed some form of
> real winter riding shoes should have been much better.
>
> I had a pair of "boxing glove" ski mittens, deer skin over acrylic
> pile, never had cold hands. Another reason not to bother with shifters
> <g>. --D-y

I found heavy ski gloves kept my hands warm in any weather my feet could
stand. No problems with twist-shifters and ATB brake levers.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"the grinning buddy bear carries a fork." - g.d.

dustoyevsky@mac.com

November 18th 07, 02:00 AM

On Nov 17, 4:15 pm, Tom Sherman >
wrote:

> But the corn blocks some of the wind. I found the biggest problem with
> intersections was all the loose chip seal that piles up from vehicles
> braking. Cross traffic was not much of an issue, being light and easily
> heard from a distance.

Yo, loose chip seal, also polishing of snowpack into ice from sliding
up to the stop and zzzzzzz'ing away <g>. Treacherous.

Yup, you could usually hear the cars coming even when the corn was up.
But not always, and a couple of my usual routes were on roads that had
an amount of cross traffic (south of Hudson). So, we learned to
prepare to stop, ROW notwithstanding. One of my classmates who didn't
make it to HS graduation was a victim of a loud two-stroke MC exhaust
on his 175 Bridgestone and crossing traffic at one of those
intersections, definitely another factor.

(Cont. OnT, cold/staying warm in): I used to use cotton tee shirts,
long and short-sleeved, and cotton/wool longjohns, whatever. I had a
limited amount of what was expensive-to-me synthetic stuff, but it all
got sweaty at some point, and the cotton could be "boiled and
bleached" (so to speak) better than the synthetics IRT odor removal.
Not as comfy as wool and synthetics, but there were a few cold winters
in the late 70's and early 80's where trying to go "breatheable" just
wasn't warm enough for fairly long stretches of riding days. I did use
a Polartech jacket at some point, a "lender" I believe, but found it
not to be much better than cheap coated nylon shells, which I could
feel a whole lot better about crashing in, too <g>.

Whatever, it was better to be too warm and sweaty than cold,
especially when the nearest place to dive into for warmth/shelter/
phone call was never really very far away at all. The idea being *not*
to stop, of course, and if you're cold, you're more likely to stop
than if you're in a self-generated steambath of sorts.

One dodge I've seen that works pretty well for milder temps is one of
those old clear "rider's capes" with the arms taken off. Wind blocked,
ventilation abounding <g>, with the user wearing enough arm warmer
etc. etc. thickness that it didn't matter if his arms got wet.

Cheap first, as always! --D-y

datakoll

November 18th 07, 01:14 PM

On Nov 18, 7:31 am, Crescentius Vespasianus >
wrote:
> >> The best I have found for cold weather riding is the combination of
> >> SPuD sandals, synthetic inner sock, heavy wool middle sock and
> >> windproof outer sock. Much warmer than regular cycling shoes with the
> >> neoprene covers.
>
> >> Too bad there is not a SPuD compatible Sorel Caribou. :(
>
> > I have a pair of Lake sandals but have not tried them at all with heavy
> > socks in cold weather. I haven't really liked them under any
> > circumstances, actually- the fit is weird. My other Lake shoes fit
> > really well (well enough that almost all my cycling shoes are Lakes),
> > but the sandals don't.
>
> -------------
> I have both Lake and Shimano sandals,
> and I'd say the Shimanos resemble a
> regular bike shoe better. I use the
> lakes to commute, and use the shimano's
> for long weekenders. They are
> definately warmer than regular shoes.
> You can layer wool socks, and if it
> really gets cold put a chemical toe
> warmer in between the layers. Have you
> looked at electric gloves. Bought some
> called "heated gloves", 4 AA bats to
> power each glove. Nice gloves, 40 grams
> of thinsulate, well made and cheap
> ($30). Can't give a reccomendation,
> because I just got them, and haven't
> tested them yet. Plan to wear them on
> my cold and dark morning rides that last
> 1.5 hours. Use rechargeable AA's of
> course, so I won't fill the land fill
> with used bats. There are some real
> expensive ones, made for skiing, but I
> wanted to try the concept first with
> these. The electric socks I looked at,
> all use a D battery, so I don't think
> that'll work, so you're stuck with wool
> socks, and chemical toe warmers.

yup bats, newspaper, mesh, duct tape, pepper spray and uroff.
a direct TV dish was yawl's salvation, no?

Crescentius Vespasianus

November 18th 07, 01:31 PM

>> The best I have found for cold weather riding is the combination of
>> SPuD sandals, synthetic inner sock, heavy wool middle sock and
>> windproof outer sock. Much warmer than regular cycling shoes with the
>> neoprene covers.
>>
>> Too bad there is not a SPuD compatible Sorel Caribou. :(
>
> I have a pair of Lake sandals but have not tried them at all with heavy
> socks in cold weather. I haven't really liked them under any
> circumstances, actually- the fit is weird. My other Lake shoes fit
> really well (well enough that almost all my cycling shoes are Lakes),
> but the sandals don't.
-------------
I have both Lake and Shimano sandals,
and I'd say the Shimanos resemble a
regular bike shoe better. I use the
lakes to commute, and use the shimano's
for long weekenders. They are
definately warmer than regular shoes.
You can layer wool socks, and if it
really gets cold put a chemical toe
warmer in between the layers. Have you
looked at electric gloves. Bought some
called "heated gloves", 4 AA bats to
power each glove. Nice gloves, 40 grams
of thinsulate, well made and cheap
($30). Can't give a reccomendation,
because I just got them, and haven't
tested them yet. Plan to wear them on
my cold and dark morning rides that last
1.5 hours. Use rechargeable AA's of
course, so I won't fill the land fill
with used bats. There are some real
expensive ones, made for skiing, but I
wanted to try the concept first with
these. The electric socks I looked at,
all use a D battery, so I don't think
that'll work, so you're stuck with wool
socks, and chemical toe warmers.

datakoll

November 18th 07, 02:41 PM

http://www.fullpetential.com/images-pet/best_friends.jpg
http://www.solarnavigator.net/images/poverty_russians_eating_dogmeat_to_survive.jpg
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:jdaXfDTJbHsJ:www.everything2.com/index.pl%3Fnode_id%3D1252982+butchering+dog&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us
http://www.braintan.com/intro/intro.html

Tom Sherman[_2_]

November 18th 07, 03:35 PM

datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
>
>
> http://www.fullpetential.com/images-pet/best_friends.jpg
> http://www.solarnavigator.net/images/poverty_russians_eating_dogmeat_to_survive.jpg
> http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:jdaXfDTJbHsJ:www.everything2.com/index.pl%3Fnode_id%3D1252982+butchering+dog&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us
> http://www.braintan.com/intro/intro.html
>
Yes, that is one way to deal with aggressive farm dogs.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"the grinning buddy bear carries a fork." - g.d.

Jim Flom

November 18th 07, 05:08 PM

"Tim McNamara" > wrote...
>
> I have a pair of Lake sandals but have not tried them at all with heavy
> socks in cold weather. I haven't really liked them under any
> circumstances, actually- the fit is weird. My other Lake shoes fit
> really well (well enough that almost all my cycling shoes are Lakes),
> but the sandals don't.

Haven't been following this thread too closely but using a plastic bread bag
over your foot, or even a baggie over your toes, as a vapor barrier liner is
a big help.

--
JF

"A really great man is known by three signs,--generosity in the design,
humanity in the execution, and moderation in success."
- Karl Otto von Schonhausen Bismarck

dustoyevsky@mac.com

November 18th 07, 06:27 PM

On Nov 18, 6:14 am, datakoll > wrote:

> yup bats, newspaper, mesh, duct tape, pepper spray and uroff.

Toe of foot.

> a direct TV dish was yawl's salvation, no?

No salvation, and no TV dish, either, thank you. --D-y

datakoll

November 18th 07, 06:53 PM

On Nov 18, 12:27 pm, " >
wrote:
> On Nov 18, 6:14 am, datakoll > wrote:
>
> > yup bats, newspaper, mesh, duct tape, pepper spray and uroff.
>
> Toe of foot.
>
> > a direct TV dish was yawl's salvation, no?
>
> No salvation, and no TV dish, either, thank you. --D-y

you call it maze?

Pat[_4_]

November 18th 07, 07:02 PM

I got some Injinji socks recently for backpacking and decided to wear them
around one day just to see if I would like them. Those socks are warm! I
finally had to take them off because my feet seemed to be overheating. I am
interested in trying them for cycling when it gets cold here. Today is in
the 70's and tomorrow is supposed to be in the 80's and I keep saying to
myself, "This IS November, right?"

Pat in TX

http://www.injinji.com/tetratsok/outdoor.htm

dustoyevsky@mac.com

November 18th 07, 07:58 PM

On Nov 18, 11:53 am, datakoll > wrote:

> you call it maze?

Money. Ground water pollution. --D-y

Tom Keats

November 18th 07, 09:41 PM

In article >,
Steve Sr. > writes:

> That problem is with my chest and inside of my arms getting cold in
> the front while my back sweats. I have tried different layering
> schemes but none seem to work very well. The layers consist of a long
> sleeve jersey, short sleeve jersey, and a thin fleece jacket if
> temperatures are cold enough.

A little sweat never hurt anybody.

Put-on a a tightly-knit, thin, wool pullover (or two)
and be done with it.

I get 'em from the thrift shops. I don't care if
anyone died in 'em . Same as shoes.

Just maintain warmth; that's all that counts.

You can shower later, apres-ride. As for the sweaters,
wash 'em in a plastic bucket of Woolite[tm] or
Zero[tm] solution. Stir 'em around with a broken
hockey stick or broomhandle or whatever have you.
Then rinse the livin' daylights outa them under
the cold water tap. Fold/roll 'em within a bath
towel to dry them. A beach towel is better, 'cuz
it's bigger. Lie that towel-wrapped bugger over
a less-consequential hot-air register, and it'll
be good to go tomorrow.

And for Goodness sake's, stop sweating so much :-)

cheers,
Tom

I Ain't SuperStitious
--Stevie Wonder

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Tom Keats

November 18th 07, 10:00 PM

In article >,
Crescentius Vespasianus > writes:
>
>>> The best I have found for cold weather riding is the combination of
>>> SPuD sandals, synthetic inner sock, heavy wool middle sock and
>>> windproof outer sock. Much warmer than regular cycling shoes with the
>>> neoprene covers.
>>>
>>> Too bad there is not a SPuD compatible Sorel Caribou. :(
>>
>> I have a pair of Lake sandals but have not tried them at all with heavy
>> socks in cold weather. I haven't really liked them under any
>> circumstances, actually- the fit is weird. My other Lake shoes fit
>> really well (well enough that almost all my cycling shoes are Lakes),
>> but the sandals don't.
> -------------
> I have both Lake and Shimano sandals,
> and I'd say the Shimanos resemble a
> regular bike shoe better. I use the
> lakes to commute, and use the shimano's
> for long weekenders. They are
> definately warmer than regular shoes.
> You can layer wool socks, and if it
> really gets cold put a chemical toe
> warmer in between the layers. Have you
> looked at electric gloves. Bought some
> called "heated gloves", 4 AA bats to
> power each glove. Nice gloves, 40 grams
> of thinsulate, well made and cheap
> ($30). Can't give a reccomendation,
> because I just got them, and haven't
> tested them yet. Plan to wear them on
> my cold and dark morning rides that last
> 1.5 hours. Use rechargeable AA's of
> course, so I won't fill the land fill
> with used bats. There are some real
> expensive ones, made for skiing, but I
> wanted to try the concept first with
> these. The electric socks I looked at,
> all use a D battery, so I don't think
> that'll work, so you're stuck with wool
> socks, and chemical toe warmers.

I wrapped lengths of innertube rubber around
my toeclips, and fastened them with zipties.

Those things keep both the wind & rain off my
street shoes. They're lovely and wonderful.
And cheap. And easy. No batteries, no h-tech,
no nuthin'. They're just there. And my feet
remain happily dry & warm, through all kinds
of Vancouver weather.

I love all you ski-cleated-pedal guyz as kith
'n kin, but (G-d forgive me please) you're all
spendthrift nutz.

cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Michael Press

November 19th 07, 12:56 AM

In article >,
(Tom Keats) wrote:

> In article >,
> Steve Sr. > writes:
>
> > That problem is with my chest and inside of my arms getting cold in
> > the front while my back sweats. I have tried different layering
> > schemes but none seem to work very well. The layers consist of a long
> > sleeve jersey, short sleeve jersey, and a thin fleece jacket if
> > temperatures are cold enough.
>
> A little sweat never hurt anybody.
>
> Put-on a a tightly-knit, thin, wool pullover (or two)
> and be done with it.
>
> I get 'em from the thrift shops. I don't care if
> anyone died in 'em . Same as shoes.
>
> Just maintain warmth; that's all that counts.
>
> You can shower later, apres-ride. As for the sweaters,
> wash 'em in a plastic bucket of Woolite[tm] or

Someone who knows advises against Woolite.
Theatrical costume shops use Woolite to
break down fabric.

--
Michael Press

datakoll

November 19th 07, 05:09 AM

On Nov 18, 6:56 pm, Michael Press > wrote:
> In article >,
> (Tom Keats) wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article >,
> > Steve Sr. > writes:
>
> > > That problem is with my chest and inside of my arms getting cold in
> > > the front while my back sweats. I have tried different layering
> > > schemes but none seem to work very well. The layers consist of a long
> > > sleeve jersey, short sleeve jersey, and a thin fleece jacket if
> > > temperatures are cold enough.
>
> > A little sweat never hurt anybody.
>
> > Put-on a a tightly-knit, thin, wool pullover (or two)
> > and be done with it.
>
> > I get 'em from the thrift shops. I don't care if
> > anyone died in 'em . Same as shoes.
>
> > Just maintain warmth; that's all that counts.
>
> > You can shower later, apres-ride. As for the sweaters,
> > wash 'em in a plastic bucket of Woolite[tm] or
>
> Someone who knows advises against Woolite.
> Theatrical costume shops use Woolite to
> break down fabric.
>
> --
> Michael Press- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

WOOLITE !!!! all of the clothing made for hiking camping is washable
in a drum washer - no agitator using dilute liquid dish soap - no Tide
nada. The socks are best laid out to dry flat after stretching when
still moist. The long underwear is washed by hand then laid out flat
to dry.
Jackets parkas hand wash.
Some wash sleeping bags in bathtubs but a drum works ok here.
wool socks and dish soap get along ok but lay out flat to dry.
i'm positive there's online advice for this maybe tomorrow.

datakoll

November 19th 07, 05:14 AM

On Nov 18, 11:09 pm, datakoll > wrote:
> On Nov 18, 6:56 pm, Michael Press > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article >,
> > (Tom Keats) wrote:
>
> > > In article >,
> > > Steve Sr. > writes:
>
> > > > That problem is with my chest and inside of my arms getting cold in
> > > > the front while my back sweats. I have tried different layering
> > > > schemes but none seem to work very well. The layers consist of a long
> > > > sleeve jersey, short sleeve jersey, and a thin fleece jacket if
> > > > temperatures are cold enough.
>
> > > A little sweat never hurt anybody.
>
> > > Put-on a a tightly-knit, thin, wool pullover (or two)
> > > and be done with it.
>
> > > I get 'em from the thrift shops. I don't care if
> > > anyone died in 'em . Same as shoes.
>
> > > Just maintain warmth; that's all that counts.
>
> > > You can shower later, apres-ride. As for the sweaters,
> > > wash 'em in a plastic bucket of Woolite[tm] or
>
> > Someone who knows advises against Woolite.
> > Theatrical costume shops use Woolite to
> > break down fabric.
>
> > --
> > Michael Press- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> WOOLITE !!!! all of the clothing made for hiking camping is washable
> in a drum washer - no agitator using dilute liquid dish soap - no Tide
> nada. The socks are best laid out to dry flat after stretching when
> still moist. The long underwear is washed by hand then laid out flat
> to dry.
> Jackets parkas hand wash.
> Some wash sleeping bags in bathtubs but a drum works ok here.
> wool socks and dish soap get along ok but lay out flat to dry.
> i'm positive there's online advice for this maybe tomorrow.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

a full load of polyester and poly/cotton in a large drum washer takes
3 full squirts of Palmolive into a Gatorade bike cage bottle.
all nylon is washed by hand and hair dried

mike.a.schwab@gmail.com

November 20th 07, 03:12 AM

http://www.icebike.org/ and http://www.bikewinter.org/ have some great
tips.

Tom Sherman[_2_]

November 20th 07, 03:12 AM

Tom Keats wrote:
> ...
> I wrapped lengths of innertube rubber around
> my toeclips, and fastened them with zipties.
>
> Those things keep both the wind & rain off my
> street shoes. They're lovely and wonderful.
> And cheap. And easy. No batteries, no h-tech,
> no nuthin'. They're just there. And my feet
> remain happily dry & warm, through all kinds
> of Vancouver weather.
>
> I love all you ski-cleated-pedal guyz as kith
> 'n kin, but (G-d forgive me please) you're all
> spendthrift nutz.

Toe clips are horrible, since one needs to have a cleated shoe and strap
cinched tight to prevent ones feet from falling off the pedals at the "3
O'Clock" and "9 O'Clock" positions. Not the thing for city riding.

Extra long Power Grips if one must go inexpensive.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"the grinning buddy bear carries a fork." - g.d.

Tom Keats

November 20th 07, 10:32 AM

In article >,
Tom Sherman > writes:
> Tom Keats wrote:
>> ...
>> I wrapped lengths of innertube rubber around
>> my toeclips, and fastened them with zipties.
>>
>> Those things keep both the wind & rain off my
>> street shoes. They're lovely and wonderful.
>> And cheap. And easy. No batteries, no h-tech,
>> no nuthin'. They're just there. And my feet
>> remain happily dry & warm, through all kinds
>> of Vancouver weather.
>>
>> I love all you ski-cleated-pedal guyz as kith
>> 'n kin, but (G-d forgive me please) you're all
>> spendthrift nutz.
>
> Toe clips are horrible, since one needs to have a cleated shoe and strap
> cinched tight to prevent ones feet from falling off the pedals at the "3
> O'Clock" and "9 O'Clock" positions. Not the thing for city riding.

No you don't. At least not with my plastic MTB toeclips &
cordura straps with the slidy buckles. I've never had any
probs w/ unintended foot extractions, nor with being stuck
in them at inopportune moments. My street shoes work very
well with them.

cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Tom Sherman[_2_]

November 20th 07, 10:39 AM

Tom Keats wrote:
> In article >,
> Tom Sherman > writes:
>> Tom Keats wrote:
>>> ...
>>> I wrapped lengths of innertube rubber around
>>> my toeclips, and fastened them with zipties.
>>>
>>> Those things keep both the wind & rain off my
>>> street shoes. They're lovely and wonderful.
>>> And cheap. And easy. No batteries, no h-tech,
>>> no nuthin'. They're just there. And my feet
>>> remain happily dry & warm, through all kinds
>>> of Vancouver weather.
>>>
>>> I love all you ski-cleated-pedal guyz as kith
>>> 'n kin, but (G-d forgive me please) you're all
>>> spendthrift nutz.
>> Toe clips are horrible, since one needs to have a cleated shoe and strap
>> cinched tight to prevent ones feet from falling off the pedals at the "3
>> O'Clock" and "9 O'Clock" positions. Not the thing for city riding.
>
> No you don't. At least not with my plastic MTB toeclips &
> cordura straps with the slidy buckles. I've never had any
> probs w/ unintended foot extractions, nor with being stuck
> in them at inopportune moments. My street shoes work very
> well with them.

Yeah, but you ride one of those weird "horsey" position bicycles, no?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"the grinning buddy bear carries a fork." - g.d.

Tom Keats

November 20th 07, 11:25 AM

In article >,
Tom Sherman > writes:

>> No you don't. At least not with my plastic MTB toeclips &
>> cordura straps with the slidy buckles. I've never had any
>> probs w/ unintended foot extractions, nor with being stuck
>> in them at inopportune moments. My street shoes work very
>> well with them.
>
> Yeah, but you ride one of those weird "horsey" position bicycles, no?

Heh :-) Sort of. If it was "horsey" position my saddle
would be a lot more forward than it is. Maybe it's more
like dromedary position.

Okay, I said some tongue-in-cheek stuff about recumbentists.
I never meant any real offense. I figure you guys are already
inured against such verbal abuse & violence. You can take it.
You can dish it out, too. Once you go "Unnggghhh", lifting
yourselves out of those low seats to stand up on two feet.
If those things had armrests to brace your arms on, it would
make that task so much easier.

cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

BCDrums

November 20th 07, 12:20 PM

Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article >,
> Tom Sherman > wrote:
>
>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>> ... I've struggled with keeping my feet warm. The old fleece-lined
>>> road shoes of yore are long gone and those were great- light and
>>> warm, sort of like Ugg boots for bicycling but not as bulky. I
>>> find that shoe covers just don't work that well for me. I bought a
>>> pair of Lake winter boots and those help quite a bit. My feet will
>>> be cold by the end of a couple hour ride at 40F, but with cycling
>>> shoes and neoprene booties I could only ride about an hour at those
>>> temps before my feet were too cold for comfort....
>> The best I have found for cold weather riding is the combination of
>> SPuD sandals, synthetic inner sock, heavy wool middle sock and
>> windproof outer sock. Much warmer than regular cycling shoes with the
>> neoprene covers.
>>
>> Too bad there is not a SPuD compatible Sorel Caribou. :(
>
> I have a pair of Lake sandals but have not tried them at all with heavy
> socks in cold weather. I haven't really liked them under any
> circumstances, actually- the fit is weird. My other Lake shoes fit
> really well (well enough that almost all my cycling shoes are Lakes),
> but the sandals don't.

I have been trying the sandals & socks route trying to keep my feet warm
with little success. Yesterday I wore a liner sock, medium wool sock,
and heavy fleece sock, covered with an oversize goretex sock on a
Shimano sandal at 36 degrees. Feet were cold!

BC
cold feet

datakoll

November 20th 07, 03:06 PM

On Nov 20, 6:20 am, BCDrums > wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article >,
> > Tom Sherman > wrote:
>
> >> Tim McNamara wrote:
> >>> ... I've struggled with keeping my feet warm. The old fleece-lined
> >>> road shoes of yore are long gone and those were great- light and
> >>> warm, sort of like Ugg boots for bicycling but not as bulky. I
> >>> find that shoe covers just don't work that well for me. I bought a
> >>> pair of Lake winter boots and those help quite a bit. My feet will
> >>> be cold by the end of a couple hour ride at 40F, but with cycling
> >>> shoes and neoprene booties I could only ride about an hour at those
> >>> temps before my feet were too cold for comfort....
> >> The best I have found for cold weather riding is the combination of
> >> SPuD sandals, synthetic inner sock, heavy wool middle sock and
> >> windproof outer sock. Much warmer than regular cycling shoes with the
> >> neoprene covers.
>
> >> Too bad there is not a SPuD compatible Sorel Caribou. :(
>
> > I have a pair of Lake sandals but have not tried them at all with heavy
> > socks in cold weather. I haven't really liked them under any
> > circumstances, actually- the fit is weird. My other Lake shoes fit
> > really well (well enough that almost all my cycling shoes are Lakes),
> > but the sandals don't.
>
> I have been trying the sandals & socks route trying to keep my feet warm
> with little success. Yesterday I wore a liner sock, medium wool sock,
> and heavy fleece sock, covered with an oversize goretex sock on a
> Shimano sandal at 36 degrees. Feet were cold!
>
> BC
> cold feet- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/campmor/search/main.jsp?command=text&ip_text=toe+warmers&image.x=11&image.y=8

http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?memberId=12500226&productId=74243

Crescentius Vespasianus

November 20th 07, 07:44 PM

>
> I have been trying the sandals & socks route trying to keep my feet warm
> with little success. Yesterday I wore a liner sock, medium wool sock,
> and heavy fleece sock, covered with an oversize goretex sock on a
> Shimano sandal at 36 degrees. Feet were cold!
>
> BC
> cold feet
------
you might have too many layers. If the
moisture is trapped, they'll be cold.
Too many layers, my guess. Now would
your feet in your shoes be just as cold,
than what you had with sandals in 36
degrees? Bring some chemical toe
warmers with you, just in case it gets
intolerable, then slip it in your sock.
What I've been doing lately, is a wool
sock, covered by windbreak sock, with
those shoe toe warmers, over the socks
(not the sandal which isn't possible).

BCDrums

November 20th 07, 07:53 PM

Crescentius Vespasianus wrote:
>
>>
>> I have been trying the sandals & socks route trying to keep my feet
>> warm with little success. Yesterday I wore a liner sock, medium wool
>> sock, and heavy fleece sock, covered with an oversize goretex sock on
>> a Shimano sandal at 36 degrees. Feet were cold!
>>
>> BC
>> cold feet
> ------
> you might have too many layers. If the moisture is trapped, they'll be
> cold. Too many layers, my guess. Now would your feet in your shoes be
> just as cold, than what you had with sandals in 36 degrees? Bring some
> chemical toe warmers with you, just in case it gets intolerable, then
> slip it in your sock. What I've been doing lately, is a wool sock,
> covered by windbreak sock, with those shoe toe warmers, over the socks
> (not the sandal which isn't possible).

I have been careful not to trap moisture. In recent tests at 39 degrees,
with thin Smartwool liners, thick, oversize (so they are toe-wigglin'
loose) REI fleece socks, and plastic bags with the Shimano sandals, the
outer surface of the fleece socks were covered in moisture, but the
inner sock stayed dry. When I replaced the plastic bags with oversize
Rocky Goretex oversocks, the fleece socks were dry too, demonstrating
that the Goretex socks were indeed passing the vapor out.

However, the feet were still cold. Am thinking of getting some rubbers
(like for rain!) to put over the whole shebang to really cut the wind.

I am trying to have warm feet without the chemical toe warmers. I have
tried them and they do work, but if I use them I could just go back to
my summer shoes. I'd rather not. I have had to stop on occasion to
remove the toe warmers (too hot!), and they last much longer than my
typical one hour ride, so it feels wasteful.

BC
defrosting digits

BCDrums

November 20th 07, 08:03 PM

datakoll wrote:
> On Nov 20, 6:20 am, BCDrums > wrote:
>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>> In article >,
>>> Tom Sherman > wrote:
>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>> ... I've struggled with keeping my feet warm. The old fleece-lined
>>>>> road shoes of yore are long gone and those were great- light and
>>>>> warm, sort of like Ugg boots for bicycling but not as bulky. I
>>>>> find that shoe covers just don't work that well for me. I bought a
>>>>> pair of Lake winter boots and those help quite a bit. My feet will
>>>>> be cold by the end of a couple hour ride at 40F, but with cycling
>>>>> shoes and neoprene booties I could only ride about an hour at those
>>>>> temps before my feet were too cold for comfort....
>>>> The best I have found for cold weather riding is the combination of
>>>> SPuD sandals, synthetic inner sock, heavy wool middle sock and
>>>> windproof outer sock. Much warmer than regular cycling shoes with the
>>>> neoprene covers.
>>>> Too bad there is not a SPuD compatible Sorel Caribou. :(
>>> I have a pair of Lake sandals but have not tried them at all with heavy
>>> socks in cold weather. I haven't really liked them under any
>>> circumstances, actually- the fit is weird. My other Lake shoes fit
>>> really well (well enough that almost all my cycling shoes are Lakes),
>>> but the sandals don't.
>> I have been trying the sandals & socks route trying to keep my feet warm
>> with little success. Yesterday I wore a liner sock, medium wool sock,
>> and heavy fleece sock, covered with an oversize goretex sock on a
>> Shimano sandal at 36 degrees. Feet were cold!
>>
>> BC
>> cold feet- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
> http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/campmor/search/main.jsp?command=text&ip_text=toe+warmers&image.x=11&image.y=8
>
> http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?memberId=12500226&productId=74243
>

I tried the Seirius socks- they are tight-fitting in any size, Have you
used these?

The Twinkle Toes look good. I'd wear them as an underlayer. I'd be
surprised if the fit over the toe of the Shimano sandal; the sole is
very wide and thick.

BC