This is getting expensive (helmets)

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

Ouch. Not physically, but financially. I've broken two Giro Atmos helmets in
crashes this year. First one happened when my son did something screwy while
descending, causing me to run into his rear wheel and off the road into the
culvert, where I flipped over and landed on my bike. Thankfully just a
couple little bruises, that's all. Oh, plus a cracked helmet. Then yesterday
I'm riding the "punchbowl" (a dried-up reservoir with steep sides that you
can ride down into and up the other side... lots of fun!) and didn't quite
get the speed right to land on the 4-ft-wide berm, causing me to grab a bit
more front brake than I should have (to keep from going over the other
side). I, fortunately, didn't go over the other side, but the bike went over
me after I did a flip over the bars that my kids thought rather funny. And
cracked another helmet.

Last time I damaged a helmet was maybe 25 years ago. Not a good trend! :>)

But more seriously, I think I'm going to be riding off-road with a standard
Trek Vapor ($40) in the future. Either that or a full-body airbag. Not to
protect me. To protect the helmet!

(For my road riding, I don't mind, and even prefer, having something that
costs a bit more but looks better and theoretically has better ventilation.
But off-road, I don't think there's much point to me pretending to look
anything but rank amateur.)

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

[[email protected]]

On Dec 10, 7:16 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" >
wrote:
> Ouch. Not physically, but financially. I've broken two Giro Atmos helmets in
> crashes this year. First one happened when my son did something screwy while
> descending, causing me to run into his rear wheel and off the road into the
> culvert, where I flipped over and landed on my bike. Thankfully just a
> couple little bruises, that's all. Oh, plus a cracked helmet.

Yep. They're fragile, all right!

> Then yesterday
> I'm riding the "punchbowl" (a dried-up reservoir with steep sides that you
> can ride down into and up the other side... lots of fun!) and didn't quite
> get the speed right to land on the 4-ft-wide berm, causing me to grab a bit
> more front brake than I should have (to keep from going over the other
> side). I, fortunately, didn't go over the other side, but the bike went over
> me after I did a flip over the bars that my kids thought rather funny. And
> cracked another helmet.
>
> Last time I damaged a helmet was maybe 25 years ago. Not a good trend! :>)

Were you doing those kinds of stunts 25 years ago?

Your riding style and mine seem much different. I tend to avoid the
kind of riding that makes wearing a helmet seem logical. As a bonus,
I seem to avoid scraped knees, broken collarbones, damaged bike parts,
etc.

IOW, I don't "risk compensate" myself into those problems.

- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Sherman[_2_]]

aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Dec 10, 7:16 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" >
> wrote:
>> Ouch. Not physically, but financially. I've broken two Giro Atmos helmets in
>> crashes this year. First one happened when my son did something screwy while
>> descending, causing me to run into his rear wheel and off the road into the
>> culvert, where I flipped over and landed on my bike. Thankfully just a
>> couple little bruises, that's all. Oh, plus a cracked helmet.
>
> Yep. They're fragile, all right!
>
>> Then yesterday
>> I'm riding the "punchbowl" (a dried-up reservoir with steep sides that you
>> can ride down into and up the other side... lots of fun!) and didn't quite
>> get the speed right to land on the 4-ft-wide berm, causing me to grab a bit
>> more front brake than I should have (to keep from going over the other
>> side). I, fortunately, didn't go over the other side, but the bike went over
>> me after I did a flip over the bars that my kids thought rather funny. And
>> cracked another helmet.
>>
>> Last time I damaged a helmet was maybe 25 years ago. Not a good trend! :>)
>
> Were you doing those kinds of stunts 25 years ago?
>
> Your riding style and mine seem much different. I tend to avoid the
> kind of riding that makes wearing a helmet seem logical. As a bonus,
> I seem to avoid scraped knees, broken collarbones, damaged bike parts,
> etc.
>
> IOW, I don't "risk compensate" myself into those problems.

To add some fuel to the fire, I will mention that "going over the bars"
is EXTREMELY unlikely on a proper recumbent bicycle.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[Leo Lichtman]

"Tom Sherman" wrote: (clip) To add some fuel to the fire, I will mention
that "going over the bars"
> is EXTREMELY unlikely on a proper recumbent bicycle. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Okay--more fuel to the fire: Riding a recumbent (proper or not) through the
punch bowl would be very humorous to watch. I believe it would take a
couple of people to bring you and the bike up from the bottom.

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Dec 10, 8:52 pm, "Leo Lichtman" >
wrote:
> "Tom Sherman" wrote: (clip) To add some fuel to the fire, I will mention
>
> that "going over the bars"> is EXTREMELY unlikely on a proper recumbent bicycle. (clip)
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Okay--more fuel to the fire: Riding a recumbent (proper or not) through the
> punch bowl would be very humorous to watch. I believe it would take a
> couple of people to bring you and the bike up from the bottom.

Drag up the "bike", if you must. But best to let Sherman rot in the
bottom of the bowl.

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> wrote in message
...
> On Dec 10, 7:16 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" >
> wrote:
>> Ouch. Not physically, but financially. I've broken two Giro Atmos helmets
>> in
>> crashes this year. First one happened when my son did something screwy
>> while
>> descending, causing me to run into his rear wheel and off the road into
>> the
>> culvert, where I flipped over and landed on my bike. Thankfully just a
>> couple little bruises, that's all. Oh, plus a cracked helmet.
>
> Yep. They're fragile, all right!

Oh, I think you misunderstand me. There's no way these crashes would have
killed me. Maybe given me a bump or two, but that's likely all. My point
wasn't about whether helmets work or not. Only that expensive helmets get
expensive when they do whatever it is they do.

>> Then yesterday
>> I'm riding the "punchbowl" (a dried-up reservoir with steep sides that
>> you
>> can ride down into and up the other side... lots of fun!) and didn't
>> quite
>> get the speed right to land on the 4-ft-wide berm, causing me to grab a
>> bit
>> more front brake than I should have (to keep from going over the other
>> side). I, fortunately, didn't go over the other side, but the bike went
>> over
>> me after I did a flip over the bars that my kids thought rather funny.
>> And
>> cracked another helmet.
>>
>> Last time I damaged a helmet was maybe 25 years ago. Not a good trend!
>> :>)
>
> Were you doing those kinds of stunts 25 years ago?

Frank, last time I checked I was 51 years old. I'd like to make it to 52.
For the most part, I ride less aggressively now than I did back in the day.

> Your riding style and mine seem much different. I tend to avoid the
> kind of riding that makes wearing a helmet seem logical. As a bonus,
> I seem to avoid scraped knees, broken collarbones, damaged bike parts,
> etc.
>
> IOW, I don't "risk compensate" myself into those problems.

I love it when people think that, because someone wears a helmet, they're
going to be crazier than they would otherwise. I'm sure there's a part of
the population that thinks like that. And I'm sure there's a part of the
population that rides more, not less carefully, wearing helmets. You could
make the same argument about seat belts and air bags. But you know what? I
don't care. Not today anyway, because that's not why I posted.

I should have known better than to think anything with the word "helmet" in
it wouldn't start something up.

And remember, I'm the guy who's dead-set against mandatory helmet laws for
kids. So maybe consider that I wasn't out trolling, I was just talking about
the costs involved, and that maybe it makes sense to wear a cheaper helmet
when out mountain biking. Or not.

> - Frank Krygowski

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


> wrote in message
...
> On Dec 10, 7:16 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" >
> wrote:
>> Ouch. Not physically, but financially. I've broken two Giro Atmos helmets
>> in
>> crashes this year. First one happened when my son did something screwy
>> while
>> descending, causing me to run into his rear wheel and off the road into
>> the
>> culvert, where I flipped over and landed on my bike. Thankfully just a
>> couple little bruises, that's all. Oh, plus a cracked helmet.
>
> Yep. They're fragile, all right!
>
>> Then yesterday
>> I'm riding the "punchbowl" (a dried-up reservoir with steep sides that
>> you
>> can ride down into and up the other side... lots of fun!) and didn't
>> quite
>> get the speed right to land on the 4-ft-wide berm, causing me to grab a
>> bit
>> more front brake than I should have (to keep from going over the other
>> side). I, fortunately, didn't go over the other side, but the bike went
>> over
>> me after I did a flip over the bars that my kids thought rather funny.
>> And
>> cracked another helmet.
>>
>> Last time I damaged a helmet was maybe 25 years ago. Not a good trend!
>> :>)
>
> Were you doing those kinds of stunts 25 years ago?
>
> Your riding style and mine seem much different. I tend to avoid the
> kind of riding that makes wearing a helmet seem logical. As a bonus,
> I seem to avoid scraped knees, broken collarbones, damaged bike parts,
> etc.
>
> IOW, I don't "risk compensate" myself into those problems.
>
> - Frank Krygowski

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article >,
Tom Sherman > wrote:

> aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On Dec 10, 7:16 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" >
> > wrote:
> >> Ouch. Not physically, but financially. I've broken two Giro Atmos helmets
> >> in
> >> crashes this year.

> >> Then yesterday
> >> I'm riding the "punchbowl" (a dried-up reservoir with steep sides that you
> >> can ride down into and up the other side... lots of fun!) and didn't quite
> >> get the speed right to land on the 4-ft-wide berm, causing me to grab a
> >> bit

> To add some fuel to the fire, I will mention that "going over the bars"
> is EXTREMELY unlikely on a proper recumbent bicycle.

Riding the punchbowl is even less likely.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

>> To add some fuel to the fire, I will mention that "going over the bars"
>> is EXTREMELY unlikely on a proper recumbent bicycle.
>
> Riding the punchbowl is even less likely.

But it sure would be fun to watch!

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Ryan Cousineau" > wrote in message
]...
> In article >,
> Tom Sherman > wrote:
>
>> aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > On Dec 10, 7:16 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" >
>> > wrote:
>> >> Ouch. Not physically, but financially. I've broken two Giro Atmos
>> >> helmets
>> >> in
>> >> crashes this year.
>
>> >> Then yesterday
>> >> I'm riding the "punchbowl" (a dried-up reservoir with steep sides that
>> >> you
>> >> can ride down into and up the other side... lots of fun!) and didn't
>> >> quite
>> >> get the speed right to land on the 4-ft-wide berm, causing me to grab
>> >> a
>> >> bit
>
>> To add some fuel to the fire, I will mention that "going over the bars"
>> is EXTREMELY unlikely on a proper recumbent bicycle.
>
> Riding the punchbowl is even less likely.
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
> "My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
> Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing

[Cathy Kearns]

"Mike Jacoubowsky" > wrote in message
. net...

> And remember, I'm the guy who's dead-set against mandatory helmet laws for
> kids. So maybe consider that I wasn't out trolling, I was just talking
> about the costs involved, and that maybe it makes sense to wear a cheaper
> helmet when out mountain biking. Or not.

You might try duct taping a bunch of those packing peanuts together in the
shape of a helmet instead. Or don't you know one of those bike dealer
people that could get you a crate of helmets at cost? :-)

And yeah, I'd watch a video of a recumbent riding the punchbowl. Just get
it up on youtube. No helmets required.

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

"Cathy Kearns" > wrote in message
et...
>
> "Mike Jacoubowsky" > wrote in message
> . net...
>
>> And remember, I'm the guy who's dead-set against mandatory helmet laws
>> for kids. So maybe consider that I wasn't out trolling, I was just
>> talking about the costs involved, and that maybe it makes sense to wear a
>> cheaper helmet when out mountain biking. Or not.
>
> You might try duct taping a bunch of those packing peanuts together in the
> shape of a helmet instead. Or don't you know one of those bike dealer
> people that could get you a crate of helmets at cost? :-)
>
> And yeah, I'd watch a video of a recumbent riding the punchbowl. Just get
> it up on youtube. No helmets required.

Cathy: So who do we goad into it? There's got to be somebody crazy enough to
try! We could sell tickets and turn it into a fund raiser. Maybe a
scholarship to take people to the DC Bike Summit. Or build a new
multi-purpose room (do they still call them that?) for your kids' school.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

[Zoot Katz]

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 17:22:57 -0800 (PST), wrote:

>> Last time I damaged a helmet was maybe 25 years ago. Not a good trend! :>)
>
>Were you doing those kinds of stunts 25 years ago?
>
>Your riding style and mine seem much different. I tend to avoid the
>kind of riding that makes wearing a helmet seem logical. As a bonus,
>I seem to avoid scraped knees, broken collarbones, damaged bike parts,
>etc.
>
>IOW, I don't "risk compensate" myself into those problems.


I've thrown my bike down the road four times in the past eight days.
Twice on snush and twice today on black ice*. Slip, slam and slide.

As usual, my mutt never made contact even though I was otherwise out
of control. My major concern was the damn celphone might be damaged.

The headgear has been part of my riding habit for thirty years.
Falling on snow, ice, or a polo pitch are taken as given. Falling is
more common in most forms of off-road bicycling and any kind of
racing than either commuting or touring. Hurting ones head is not the
most common form of injury by a long shot but brain concussions, or
worse, happen regardless of whether one is wearing a hard hat.

Perhaps my helmet has always influenced my assertive attitude whilst
mixing with motorised traffic. I've always associated strapping on
the hat with operating my bicycle in a vehicular manner, kinda like a
motorcycle, and as a reminder of my mortality.

Today, leaving the house and seeing sheet ice in the shade, I didn't
have to think about going back for a helmet knowing the chances of
falling were somewhat increased. Having been raised to "rather be
safe than sorry" I'd have logically chosen to wear a helmet today in
order to compensate for the inherent greater risk presented by the
sketchy road surfaces.

I recognised the risk but had to get somewhere. I wasn't counting on
my hat to get me there. The greatest risk I run is getting a ticket
for not wearing one. Falling twice just made the ride more
interesting for its remainder. I might wear armoured shorts as a
prophylactic measure tomorrow if this cold spell holds. I'll try to
not start acting crazy on the shaded stretches and perhaps survive
another day to not need a helmet.

Wearing one, or not, has nothing to do with my religion

*I think the lens colour of my new sunglasses may have had something
to do with my not seeing the black ice until I re-trained my eyes to
spot it in the shade. Safety glasses are dangerous!
--
zk

[Zoot Katz]

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 04:17:17 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> wrote:

>>> To add some fuel to the fire, I will mention that "going over the bars"
>>> is EXTREMELY unlikely on a proper recumbent bicycle.
>>
>> Riding the punchbowl is even less likely.
>
>But it sure would be fun to watch!

I've seen an electrified KMX Kart that might be up to the task.
--
zk

[Zoot Katz]

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 03:38:27 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> wrote:

>>
>> Yep. They're fragile, all right!
>
>Oh, I think you misunderstand me. There's no way these crashes would have
>killed me. Maybe given me a bump or two, but that's likely all. My point
>wasn't about whether helmets work or not. Only that expensive helmets get
>expensive when they do whatever it is they do.

I believe Guy Chapman has reported that cheap helmets pass the
certification tests just as consistently as the more expensive ones.

No helmet looks good with a suit or casual attire, IMO.
--
zk

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

>>Oh, I think you misunderstand me. There's no way these crashes would have
>>killed me. Maybe given me a bump or two, but that's likely all. My point
>>wasn't about whether helmets work or not. Only that expensive helmets get
>>expensive when they do whatever it is they do.
>
> I believe Guy Chapman has reported that cheap helmets pass the
> certification tests just as consistently as the more expensive ones.
>
> No helmet looks good with a suit or casual attire, IMO.

Zoot: It's absolutely true that price has little, if anything, to do with
the amount of protection a helmet offers. It's all about styling and
ventilation. Which is fine... nothing wrong with wearing something that
looks good and might be a bit cooler. But the reason for the addition of
carbon reinforcements and such on high-end helmets is so they can make the
openings larger and still have the helmet hold together in an impact.

As for what helmets look good with, I don't know, but they do hide bad hair
(or, rather, thinning bad hair) pretty well...

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com




"Zoot Katz" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 03:38:27 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> > wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Yep. They're fragile, all right!
>>
>>Oh, I think you misunderstand me. There's no way these crashes would have
>>killed me. Maybe given me a bump or two, but that's likely all. My point
>>wasn't about whether helmets work or not. Only that expensive helmets get
>>expensive when they do whatever it is they do.
>
> I believe Guy Chapman has reported that cheap helmets pass the
> certification tests just as consistently as the more expensive ones.
>
> No helmet looks good with a suit or casual attire, IMO.
> --
> zk

[Tom Sherman[_2_]]

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> In article >,
> Tom Sherman > wrote:
>
>> aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On Dec 10, 7:16 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" >
>>> wrote:
>>>> Ouch. Not physically, but financially. I've broken two Giro Atmos helmets
>>>> in
>>>> crashes this year.
>
>>>> Then yesterday
>>>> I'm riding the "punchbowl" (a dried-up reservoir with steep sides that you
>>>> can ride down into and up the other side... lots of fun!) and didn't quite
>>>> get the speed right to land on the 4-ft-wide berm, causing me to grab a
>>>> bit
>
>> To add some fuel to the fire, I will mention that "going over the bars"
>> is EXTREMELY unlikely on a proper recumbent bicycle.
>
> Riding the punchbowl is even less likely.
>
Can someone post pictures of this "punchbowl"?

Note that Mike Jacoubowsky's first "header" did NOT occur in the
"punchbowl".

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[Bruce Gilbert[_3_]]

"Mike Jacoubowsky" > wrote in message
...
> >>Oh, I think you misunderstand me. There's no way these crashes would
have
> >>killed me. Maybe given me a bump or two, but that's likely all. My point
> >>wasn't about whether helmets work or not. Only that expensive helmets
get
> >>expensive when they do whatever it is they do.
> >
> > I believe Guy Chapman has reported that cheap helmets pass the
> > certification tests just as consistently as the more expensive ones.
> >
> > No helmet looks good with a suit or casual attire, IMO.
>
> Zoot: It's absolutely true that price has little, if anything, to do with
> the amount of protection a helmet offers. It's all about styling and
> ventilation. Which is fine... nothing wrong with wearing something that
> looks good and might be a bit cooler. But the reason for the addition of
> carbon reinforcements and such on high-end helmets is so they can make the
> openings larger and still have the helmet hold together in an impact.
>
> As for what helmets look good with, I don't know, but they do hide bad
hair
> (or, rather, thinning bad hair) pretty well...
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>
>
>
>
> "Zoot Katz" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 03:38:27 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> > > wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>> Yep. They're fragile, all right!
> >>
> >>Oh, I think you misunderstand me. There's no way these crashes would
have
> >>killed me. Maybe given me a bump or two, but that's likely all. My point
> >>wasn't about whether helmets work or not. Only that expensive helmets
get
> >>expensive when they do whatever it is they do.
> >
> > I believe Guy Chapman has reported that cheap helmets pass the
> > certification tests just as consistently as the more expensive ones.
> >
> > No helmet looks good with a suit or casual attire, IMO.
> > --
> > zk
>

Here is one that tops them all!

My friend's wife decides that his helmet (high end Limar) needs to get
cleaned. So, into the washing machine it goes. The next morning he shows up
for a ride with his helmet fitting like Zippy the Pinhead's hat. He was able
to glue most of the parts back together, except for a chunk from the back,
which caused the size problem.

I believe we have a failure to understand on multiple levels occurring here.

Topics for discussion are:

What is a helmet?

How do you clean a helmet?

When do you clean a helmet?

Why do you clean a helmet?

How do helmets work?

Can helmets be fixed?

How much can be missing before you do not fix?

If the straps are gone, what length drywall screws should you use?

Are drywall screws race start legal?

Is it true that UCI approved the insulation foam in a can as a helmet for
training events only?

How heavy is too heavy for RBM?

Bruce

[[email protected]]

On Dec 11, 2:00 am, "Mike Jacoubowsky" > wrote:
> >
> > Zoot Katz wrote:
>
> > I believe Guy Chapman has reported that cheap helmets pass the
> > certification tests just as consistently as the more expensive ones.
>
> Zoot: It's absolutely true that price has little, if anything, to do with
> the amount of protection a helmet offers.

From the little data I've been able to find, price does absolutely
relate to the amount of protection a helmet offers.

It's an inverse relationship.

IOW, the more you pay for a helmet, the LESS protection it is likely
to offer. Obviously, you will not find this fact in the advertising
material, nor in the mountains of helmet promotion material in print
or on the web - just as you will not find any clear explanation of the
ludicrously low bike helmet impact standards.

But Consumer Reports magazine rates a few helmets every couple years.
AFAIK, every test they've done has shown higher protection in the
cheap models, and less impact protection in the pricey ones. Of
course, CR doesn't give numbers either, so you have to interpret their
rating system of colored dots. And CR doesn't call attention to this
aspect of the results, since they are as nonsensically pro-helmet as
Safe Kids Inc.*

And of course, this inverse relationship between price and protection
is logical, given that 1) helmets _are_ sweaty and uncomfortable for
many, many people; and 2) weight weenies will spend insane amounts to
reduce the number of grams they carry up a hill. A high-end helmet
designer's functional target is to provide absolutely the least amount
of styrofoam possible, while (just barely) passing the CPSC impact
standard. You pay for that effort. A low-end helmet designer just
puts in lots of heavy, insulting foam, and thus protects you better.

> It's all about styling and ventilation. Which is fine...

:-) As long as you don't worry about effectiveness!

> nothing wrong with wearing something that looks good...

:-) Now _that_ is a triumph of marketing! If helmets really "looked
good" by any objective standard, we'd see lots of people walking
around in helmets all the time. And I don't mean just cyclists.

Could you imagine showing up at a formal event wearing your best dress
suit, your shiniest shoes, your beautiful wife in a classy gown - and
a psychedelic styrofoam squid perched on your head? I'm sure everyone
present would rush right out to buy one for their next formal event!

- Frank Krygowski

[[email protected]]

On Dec 10, 10:38 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > On Dec 10, 7:16 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" >
> > wrote:
> >> Ouch. Not physically, but financially. I've broken two Giro Atmos helmets
> >> in
> >> crashes this year. First one happened when my son did something screwy
> >> while
> >> descending, causing me to run into his rear wheel and off the road into
> >> the
> >> culvert, where I flipped over and landed on my bike. Thankfully just a
> >> couple little bruises, that's all. Oh, plus a cracked helmet.
>
> > Yep. They're fragile, all right!
>
> Oh, I think you misunderstand me. There's no way these crashes would have
> killed me. Maybe given me a bump or two, but that's likely all. My point
> wasn't about whether helmets work or not. Only that expensive helmets get
> expensive when they do whatever it is they do.

Oh, I understood you. I was agreeing with you. Helmets are expensive
when they do what they do. They break. They're fragile. And of
course, their fragility enables the sale of yet another helmet.
That's the main thing they do.

> > Your riding style and mine seem much different. I tend to avoid the
> > kind of riding that makes wearing a helmet seem logical. As a bonus,
> > I seem to avoid scraped knees, broken collarbones, damaged bike parts,
> > etc.
>
> > IOW, I don't "risk compensate" myself into those problems.
>
> I love it when people think that, because someone wears a helmet, they're
> going to be crazier than they would otherwise. I'm sure there's a part of
> the population that thinks like that. And I'm sure there's a part of the
> population that rides more, not less carefully, wearing helmets. You could
> make the same argument about seat belts and air bags.

Mike, your statement make it obvious that you haven't looked into risk
compensation at all. You may not have given it a moment's thought.

There is _very_ good scientific evidence that risk compensation
exists. Read the book _Risk_ by John Adams, or _Death On The Streets_
by Robert Davis. Check out _Target Risk_ by Gerald Wilde, at
http://pavlov.psyc.queensu.ca/target/index.html
If you do read those, I think you'll have a hard time arguing against
the idea.

Or, more simply, ask yourself: Would you have ridden the Punch Bowl
without a helmet? Perhaps you would, I don't know; but surely you
realize that many people would not ride it without a helmet, but do
ride it with one. That is incontrovertible evidence of risk
compensation - that is, taking on more risk because of a feeling of
protection.

In the books above, you can find evidence for the same effect
regarding seat belts, air bags, anti-lock brakes, etc.

Which is not a big problem (at least, for the driver) if the
additional protection properly compensates for the additional risk.
However, helmet promotion is driven by the false claim that helmets
prevent 85% (i.e. almost all) head injuries. In reality, their
effects seem to be much closer to zero. That's one explanation for
the fact that helmet use has not worked in reducing cycling head
injuries.

> I should have known better than to think anything with the word "helmet" in
> it wouldn't start something up.

I agree. In general, if you don't like discussion, don't post to
discussion groups!

- Frank Krygowski

[Pat[_4_]]

You can get the padded shorts from any inline skates website. I am thinking
about getting a pair for my grandson who is learning to use his inline
skates. it's either that or soccer goalie shorts.....

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Dec 10, 9:38 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > On Dec 10, 7:16 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" >
> > wrote:
> >> Ouch. Not physically, but financially. I've broken two Giro Atmos helmets
> >> in
> >> crashes this year. First one happened when my son did something screwy
> >> while
> >> descending, causing me to run into his rear wheel and off the road into
> >> the
> >> culvert, where I flipped over and landed on my bike. Thankfully just a
> >> couple little bruises, that's all. Oh, plus a cracked helmet.
>
> > Yep. They're fragile, all right!
>
> Oh, I think you misunderstand me. There's no way these crashes would have
> killed me. Maybe given me a bump or two, but that's likely all. My point
> wasn't about whether helmets work or not. Only that expensive helmets get
> expensive when they do whatever it is they do.
>
>
>
> >> Then yesterday
> >> I'm riding the "punchbowl" (a dried-up reservoir with steep sides that
> >> you
> >> can ride down into and up the other side... lots of fun!) and didn't
> >> quite
> >> get the speed right to land on the 4-ft-wide berm, causing me to grab a
> >> bit
> >> more front brake than I should have (to keep from going over the other
> >> side). I, fortunately, didn't go over the other side, but the bike went
> >> over
> >> me after I did a flip over the bars that my kids thought rather funny.
> >> And
> >> cracked another helmet.
>
> >> Last time I damaged a helmet was maybe 25 years ago. Not a good trend!
> >> :>)
>
> > Were you doing those kinds of stunts 25 years ago?
>
> Frank, last time I checked I was 51 years old. I'd like to make it to 52.
> For the most part, I ride less aggressively now than I did back in the day.
>
> > Your riding style and mine seem much different. I tend to avoid the
> > kind of riding that makes wearing a helmet seem logical. As a bonus,
> > I seem to avoid scraped knees, broken collarbones, damaged bike parts,
> > etc.
>
> > IOW, I don't "risk compensate" myself into those problems.
>
> I love it when people think that, because someone wears a helmet, they're
> going to be crazier than they would otherwise. I'm sure there's a part of
> the population that thinks like that. And I'm sure there's a part of the
> population that rides more, not less carefully, wearing helmets. You could
> make the same argument about seat belts and air bags. But you know what? I
> don't care. Not today anyway, because that's not why I posted.
>
> I should have known better than to think anything with the word "helmet" in
> it wouldn't start something up.

Well, you *have* garnered the "attention" of the most rabid AHZ Gasbag
extant. Now we can watch him post the same old repetitive AHZ
boilerplate BS yet again.


>
> And remember, I'm the guy who's dead-set against mandatory helmet laws for
> kids. So maybe consider that I wasn't out trolling, I was just talking about
> the costs involved, and that maybe it makes sense to wear a cheaper helmet
> when out mountain biking. Or not.
>

You weren't trolling, you were just (inadvertantly) giving the Gasbag
an opportunity to outgas!

[Biker52[_2_]]

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 16:16:00 -0800, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> wrote:

>Ouch. Not physically, but financially. I've broken two Giro Atmos helmets in
>crashes this year. First one happened when my son did something screwy while
>descending, causing me to run into his rear wheel and off the road into the
>culvert, where I flipped over and landed on my bike. Thankfully just a
>couple little bruises, that's all. Oh, plus a cracked helmet. Then yesterday
>I'm riding the "punchbowl" (a dried-up reservoir with steep sides that you
>can ride down into and up the other side... lots of fun!) and didn't quite
>get the speed right to land on the 4-ft-wide berm, causing me to grab a bit
>more front brake than I should have (to keep from going over the other
>side). I, fortunately, didn't go over the other side, but the bike went over
>me after I did a flip over the bars that my kids thought rather funny. And
>cracked another helmet.
>
>Last time I damaged a helmet was maybe 25 years ago. Not a good trend! :>)
>
>But more seriously, I think I'm going to be riding off-road with a standard
>Trek Vapor ($40) in the future. Either that or a full-body airbag. Not to
>protect me. To protect the helmet!
>
>(For my road riding, I don't mind, and even prefer, having something that
>costs a bit more but looks better and theoretically has better ventilation.
>But off-road, I don't think there's much point to me pretending to look
>anything but rank amateur.)
>
>--Mike Jacoubowsky
>Chain Reaction Bicycles
>www.ChainReaction.com
>Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>

I agree with Mike. It's an inverse relationship.

As you get older you get dumber, so you're not losing as much as when
your brain was top-drawer. <eg>

Also you're slower, so there's more need for lightness but you're
riding a pedestrian speeds so the wind resistance is less. <har-har>

I just get something mid-range, and wear it to look cool (yeah,
right) and to prevent them from saying 'he wasn't wearing a helmet
when he rode off the highway into the reservoir, or his head might
have floated to the surface'. :-D

(I can still swim. Does an all carbon frame float?)
------------
To be serious for a second, I'm wondering what you think of the
new(er) NiteRider HeadTrip with a 6V helmet headlight. I supposedly
goes to 10 watts and has some nice features. The battery pack is a
flat 6V. I presume the battery mounts to the belt or waist?

<http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=20727&subcategory_ID=4320>

TIA

[Hank Wirtz]

On Dec 10, 6:15 pm, Tom Sherman >
wrote:
> aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 10, 7:16 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" >
> > wrote:
> >> Ouch. Not physically, but financially. I've broken two Giro Atmos helmets in
> >> crashes this year. First one happened when my son did something screwy while
> >> descending, causing me to run into his rear wheel and off the road into the
> >> culvert, where I flipped over and landed on my bike. Thankfully just a
> >> couple little bruises, that's all. Oh, plus a cracked helmet.
>
> > Yep. They're fragile, all right!
>
> >> Then yesterday
> >> I'm riding the "punchbowl" (a dried-up reservoir with steep sides that you
> >> can ride down into and up the other side... lots of fun!) and didn't quite
> >> get the speed right to land on the 4-ft-wide berm, causing me to grab a bit
> >> more front brake than I should have (to keep from going over the other
> >> side). I, fortunately, didn't go over the other side, but the bike went over
> >> me after I did a flip over the bars that my kids thought rather funny. And
> >> cracked another helmet.
>
> >> Last time I damaged a helmet was maybe 25 years ago. Not a good trend! :>)
>
> > Were you doing those kinds of stunts 25 years ago?
>
> > Your riding style and mine seem much different. I tend to avoid the
> > kind of riding that makes wearing a helmet seem logical. As a bonus,
> > I seem to avoid scraped knees, broken collarbones, damaged bike parts,
> > etc.
>
> > IOW, I don't "risk compensate" myself into those problems.
>
> To add some fuel to the fire, I will mention that "going over the bars"
> is EXTREMELY unlikely on a proper recumbent bicycle.
>

So you think that Under-Seat-Steering makes a 'bent improper? They
spend all their time over the bars.

'Bent riders are eating their own!

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Can someone post pictures of this "punchbowl"?

www.ChainReaction.com/diary.htm and look for the youtube video near the top
of the page.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA



"Tom Sherman" > wrote in message
...
> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>> In article >,
>> Tom Sherman > wrote:
>>
>>> aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On Dec 10, 7:16 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Ouch. Not physically, but financially. I've broken two Giro Atmos
>>>>> helmets in
>>>>> crashes this year.
>>
>>>>> Then yesterday
>>>>> I'm riding the "punchbowl" (a dried-up reservoir with steep sides that
>>>>> you
>>>>> can ride down into and up the other side... lots of fun!) and didn't
>>>>> quite
>>>>> get the speed right to land on the 4-ft-wide berm, causing me to grab
>>>>> a bit
>>
>>> To add some fuel to the fire, I will mention that "going over the bars"
>>> is EXTREMELY unlikely on a proper recumbent bicycle.
>>
>> Riding the punchbowl is even less likely.
>>
> Can someone post pictures of this "punchbowl"?
>
> Note that Mike Jacoubowsky's first "header" did NOT occur in the
> "punchbowl".
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> "Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
> differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
> excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[Tom Sherman[_2_]]

Hank Wirtz wrote:
> On Dec 10, 6:15 pm, Tom Sherman >
> wrote:
>>
>> To add some fuel to the fire, I will mention that "going over the bars"
>> is EXTREMELY unlikely on a proper recumbent bicycle.
>>
>
> So you think that Under-Seat-Steering makes a 'bent improper? They
> spend all their time over the bars.
>
> 'Bent riders are eating their own!

True under seat steering (USS), is greatly inferior to controls besides
the riders legs (BSS). Most recumbents advertised as having USS are
actually BSS, e.g. this is a BSS bicycle:
<http://www.challenge-recumbents.com/images/picture.php?filename=images/inhoud/hurricanetour/hurricanetouruss-groot.jpg&size=640&type=2&quality=87>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[Tom Sherman[_2_]]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> Can someone post pictures of this "punchbowl"?
>
> www.ChainReaction.com/diary.htm and look for the youtube video near the top
> of the page....

Heck, I would not hesitate to ride that on my recumbent trike (if it was
not so far away).

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

"Tom Sherman" > wrote in message
...
> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>> Can someone post pictures of this "punchbowl"?
>>
>> www.ChainReaction.com/diary.htm and look for the youtube video near the
>> top of the page....
>
> Heck, I would not hesitate to ride that on my recumbent trike (if it was
> not so far away).

I don't think you'd have any trouble getting down, but back up the other
side might be fun to watch. Give me a couple days' warning so I can be
there.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

[Tom Sherman[_2_]]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> "Tom Sherman" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>>> Can someone post pictures of this "punchbowl"?
>>> www.ChainReaction.com/diary.htm and look for the youtube video near the
>>> top of the page....
>> Heck, I would not hesitate to ride that on my recumbent trike (if it was
>> not so far away).
>
> I don't think you'd have any trouble getting down, but back up the other
> side might be fun to watch. Give me a couple days' warning so I can be
> there.

I have low speed all wheel drive. Pedal in the lowest gear, while
rotating the front wheels by hand.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[Matt O'Toole]

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 16:16:00 -0800, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

> Ouch. Not physically, but financially. I've broken two Giro Atmos helmets in
> crashes this year. First one happened when my son did something screwy while
> descending, causing me to run into his rear wheel and off the road into the
> culvert, where I flipped over and landed on my bike. Thankfully just a
> couple little bruises, that's all. Oh, plus a cracked helmet. Then yesterday
> I'm riding the "punchbowl" (a dried-up reservoir with steep sides that you
> can ride down into and up the other side... lots of fun!) and didn't quite
> get the speed right to land on the 4-ft-wide berm, causing me to grab a bit
> more front brake than I should have (to keep from going over the other
> side). I, fortunately, didn't go over the other side, but the bike went over
> me after I did a flip over the bars that my kids thought rather funny. And
> cracked another helmet.
>
> Last time I damaged a helmet was maybe 25 years ago. Not a good trend! :>)
>
> But more seriously, I think I'm going to be riding off-road with a standard
> Trek Vapor ($40) in the future. Either that or a full-body airbag. Not to
> protect me. To protect the helmet!
>
> (For my road riding, I don't mind, and even prefer, having something that
> costs a bit more but looks better and theoretically has better ventilation.
> But off-road, I don't think there's much point to me pretending to look
> anything but rank amateur.)

I can't bring myself to pay more than about $40 for a helmet. The
"improvements" beyond that are marginal at best. Below that, it's hard to
find one that's not one-or-two-sizes-fits-all. But if those fit you
perfectly, they're fine too.

Matt O.

[Hank Wirtz]

On Dec 11, 5:04 pm, Tom Sherman >
wrote:
> Hank Wirtz wrote:
> > On Dec 10, 6:15 pm, Tom Sherman >
> > wrote:
>
> >> To add some fuel to the fire, I will mention that "going over the bars"
> >> is EXTREMELY unlikely on a proper recumbent bicycle.
>
> > So you think that Under-Seat-Steering makes a 'bent improper? They
> > spend all their time over the bars.
>
> > 'Bent riders are eating their own!
>
> True under seat steering (USS), is greatly inferior to controls besides
> the riders legs (BSS). Most recumbents advertised as having USS are
> actually BSS, e.g. this is a BSS bicycle:
> <http://www.challenge-recumbents.com/images/picture.php?filename=image...>.
>

Yeah, we don't really care. You're still annoying.

[Tom Sherman[_2_]]

Hank Wirtz wrote:
> ...
> Yeah, we don't really care. You're still annoying.
>

WOO HOO!!!!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Dec 11, 8:32 pm, Hank Wirtz > wrote:
> On Dec 11, 5:04 pm, Tom Sherman >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hank Wirtz wrote:
> > > On Dec 10, 6:15 pm, Tom Sherman >
> > > wrote:
>
> > >> To add some fuel to the fire, I will mention that "going over the bars"
> > >> is EXTREMELY unlikely on a proper recumbent bicycle.
>
> > > So you think that Under-Seat-Steering makes a 'bent improper? They
> > > spend all their time over the bars.
>
> > > 'Bent riders are eating their own!
>
> > True under seat steering (USS), is greatly inferior to controls besides
> > the riders legs (BSS). Most recumbents advertised as having USS are
> > actually BSS, e.g. this is a BSS bicycle:
> > <http://www.challenge-recumbents.com/images/picture.php?filename=image...>.
>
> Yeah, we don't really care. You're still annoying.

You noticed that, too, eh?

[Zoot Katz]

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:08:00 -0600, "Pat" >
wrote:

>You can get the padded shorts from any inline skates website. I am thinking
>about getting a pair for my grandson who is learning to use his inline
>skates. it's either that or soccer goalie shorts.....
>
I have shorts in the drawer with ~12mm of polyethylene foam over the
pelvic bones, hips and outside thighs. It has a chamois but no tail
bone protection. They're only worn on bad ice days.

Yesterday's dumps left a minor abrasion on the saddle where it
stopped sliding. I had no bruising under dungarees, bib knickers,
four top layers and padded gloves. Ultimately, an ear warmer was all
the head protection required.

I avoided what little ice I saw today. Maybe if I'd been wearing my
foam shorts I'd have given it a go on the 28mm slicks.

Hockey referee's girdles are light, ventilated, and well adapted to
skating by including tail-bone protection.
--
zk

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Dec 11, 9:29 pm, Zoot Katz > wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:08:00 -0600, "Pat" >
> wrote:
>
> >You can get the padded shorts from any inline skates website. I am thinking
> >about getting a pair for my grandson who is learning to use his inline
> >skates. it's either that or soccer goalie shorts.....
>
> I have shorts in the drawer with ~12mm of polyethylene foam over the
> pelvic bones, hips and outside thighs. It has a chamois but no tail
> bone protection. They're only worn on bad ice days.
>
> Yesterday's dumps left a minor abrasion on the saddle where it
> stopped sliding. I had no bruising under dungarees, bib knickers,
> four top layers and padded gloves. Ultimately, an ear warmer was all
> the head protection required.
>
> I avoided what little ice I saw today. Maybe if I'd been wearing my
> foam shorts I'd have given it a go on the 28mm slicks.
>
> Hockey referee's girdles are light, ventilated, and well adapted to
> skating by including tail-bone protection.

Beware the dreaded "risk compensation".

[dabac[_84_]]

Bruce Gilbert Wrote:
>
>
> Topics for discussion are:
>
> How do you clean a helmet?

I remove the tape strip holding the top and bottom part of the hard
outer shell together, after which some gentle prying will cause the
double sided sticky tape to let go and let the foam core be exposed.
This will make it possible to remove the straps from their recessed
anchor points once the chin buckle at the other end is unstrapped. The
padding is only velcroed in so it removes easily. Pads and straps goes
into a sock, and the sock goes in the washer. Foam core and chin buckle
may or may not be given a light rinse dependent on degree of
discolouration and smell.


Bruce Gilbert Wrote:
>
> When do you clean a helmet?
>
When straps or pads have become obviously discoloured and/or noticeably
stiffer, or when the helmet has developed a noticeable smell of old
sweat.
Bruce Gilbert Wrote:
>
> Why do you clean a helmet?
Because straps or pads have become obviously discoloured and/or
noticeably stiffer, or because the helmet has developed a noticeable
smell of old sweat.


--
dabac

[ilaboo[_2_]]

i got a inline bike helmet looks totally industructable compared to a bike
helmet
hth
peter

"Pat" > wrote in message
...
> You can get the padded shorts from any inline skates website. I am
> thinking about getting a pair for my grandson who is learning to use his
> inline skates. it's either that or soccer goalie shorts.....
>