Beginning of the end or the end of the beginning?

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

The latest move by the UCI- which essentially sounds like a "quiet" way of
telling the ProTour teams they aren't going to be racing Paris Roubaix... no
UCI support, no race points, "no winner" etc... will McQuaid get enough
support from the ProTour teams to hold this together? Can he afford even a
single defection from a non-French team? And has he backed the ASO into a
corner such that there's no way they'll reconsider their position this year,
and run National & Regional teams in the TdF, just as they have in the
way-back days, and believe it will still be an event to watch?

--Mike--
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com

[William Asher]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

> The latest move by the UCI- which essentially sounds like a "quiet"
> way of telling the ProTour teams they aren't going to be racing Paris
> Roubaix... no UCI support, no race points, "no winner" etc... will
> McQuaid get enough support from the ProTour teams to hold this
> together? Can he afford even a single defection from a non-French
> team? And has he backed the ASO into a corner such that there's no way
> they'll reconsider their position this year, and run National &
> Regional teams in the TdF, just as they have in the way-back days, and
> believe it will still be an event to watch?

Who are you now, the Sphinx?

--
Bill Asher

[[email protected]]

On Feb 25, 5:04 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" >
wrote:
> The latest move by the UCI- which essentially sounds like a "quiet" way of
> telling the ProTour teams they aren't going to be racing Paris Roubaix... no
> UCI support, no race points, "no winner" etc... will McQuaid get enough
> support from the ProTour teams to hold this together? Can he afford even a
> single defection from a non-French team? And has he backed the ASO into a
> corner such that there's no way they'll reconsider their position this year,
> and run National & Regional teams in the TdF, just as they have in the
> way-back days, and believe it will still be an event to watch?

No.

[dave a]

wrote:
> On Feb 25, 5:04 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" >
> wrote:
>> The latest move by the UCI- which essentially sounds like a "quiet" way of
>> telling the ProTour teams they aren't going to be racing Paris Roubaix... no
>> UCI support, no race points, "no winner" etc... will McQuaid get enough
>> support from the ProTour teams to hold this together? Can he afford even a
>> single defection from a non-French team? And has he backed the ASO into a
>> corner such that there's no way they'll reconsider their position this year,
>> and run National & Regional teams in the TdF, just as they have in the
>> way-back days, and believe it will still be an event to watch?
>
> No.

It would seem to me that McQuaid has backed himself into a corner. If
he doesn't have the support of every ProTour team, he has no power at
all. This is the end of the UCI and the ProTour. ASO will now be able
to invite whoever they want and a French team will win the Tour Day France.

/dave a

[TM]

"Mike Jacoubowsky" > wrote in message
et...
> The latest move by the UCI- which essentially sounds like a "quiet" way of
> telling the ProTour teams they aren't going to be racing Paris Roubaix...
> no UCI support, no race points, "no winner" etc... will McQuaid get enough
> support from the ProTour teams to hold this together? Can he afford even a
> single defection from a non-French team? And has he backed the ASO into a
> corner such that there's no way they'll reconsider their position this
> year, and run National & Regional teams in the TdF, just as they have in
> the way-back days, and believe it will still be an event to watch?
>
> --Mike--
> Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReaction.com
>
>

The UCI cannot generate any income on their own.

Teams are only an expense and have no cash value.

The only assets that generate income in the sport of cycling are the races
themselves. The races are the franchises of pro cycling and they will
eventually have complete control of the sport's direction.

[Tom Kunich]

"dave a" > wrote in message
...
>
> It would seem to me that McQuaid has backed himself into a corner. If he
> doesn't have the support of every ProTour team, he has no power at all.

I disagree. The teams cannot allow ASO and others to control cycling to the
extent that they now wish to. ASO is also acting almost insanely and can
well completely destroy themselves.

[jean-yves hervé]

In article >,
dave a > wrote:

> wrote:
> > On Feb 25, 5:04 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" >
> > wrote:
> >> The latest move by the UCI- which essentially sounds like a "quiet" way of
> >> telling the ProTour teams they aren't going to be racing Paris Roubaix...
> >> no
> >> UCI support, no race points, "no winner" etc... will McQuaid get enough
> >> support from the ProTour teams to hold this together? Can he afford even a
> >> single defection from a non-French team? And has he backed the ASO into a
> >> corner such that there's no way they'll reconsider their position this
> >> year,
> >> and run National & Regional teams in the TdF, just as they have in the
> >> way-back days, and believe it will still be an event to watch?
> >
> > No.
>
> It would seem to me that McQuaid has backed himself into a corner. If
> he doesn't have the support of every ProTour team, he has no power at
> all. This is the end of the UCI and the ProTour. ASO will now be able
> to invite whoever they want and a French team will win the Tour Day France.

You guys are getting really annoying repeating the same **** over and
over as if this was going to make it true. ASO is not in the business
of making a French team (or a French rider) win the TdF. They are in
the business of making money. Of course ASO would love for a frenchman
to win the TDF, but no French rider is a legitimate GC contender and
everybody in France knows that. They may serve that with a good helping
of sour grapes ("all the other guys are doping"), but nobody expects
Chavanel/Moreau/Moncoutié/Voeckler to be a serious contender. In the
current state of things, ASO's absolute upper-bound hopes are for
o 3-4 wins by French riders (1-2 more realistic),
o 2-3 more wins by riders on a French team,
o a French rider wears a distinctive jersey for a week,
o a competitive GC competition,
o no prominent rider gets caught.
Prudhomme would sign for something like that if you could guarantee it
to him.

jyh.

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

| You guys are getting really annoying repeating the same **** over and
| over as if this was going to make it true. ASO is not in the business
| of making a French team (or a French rider) win the TdF.

*One* post referenced a French *team* winning the TdF. And that could
happen, even with all the ProTour teams there. Nobody said the ASO was doing
this so that a Frenchman would win the TdF.

| They are in the business of making money. Of course ASO would love for a
frenchman
| to win the TDF, but no French rider is a legitimate GC contender and
| everybody in France knows that. They may serve that with a good helping
| of sour grapes ("all the other guys are doping"), but nobody expects
| Chavanel/Moreau/Moncoutié/Voeckler to be a serious contender. In the
| current state of things, ASO's absolute upper-bound hopes are for
| o 3-4 wins by French riders (1-2 more realistic),
| o 2-3 more wins by riders on a French team,
| o a French rider wears a distinctive jersey for a week,
| o a competitive GC competition,
| o no prominent rider gets caught.
| Prudhomme would sign for something like that if you could guarantee it
| to him.
|
| jyh.

No disagreement with any of that. But I think you misunderstanding what
others are saying. This is a power game for control of bike racing, and the
money that goes along with it. The ASO is apparently one of the few
organizations that has found cycling to be truly profitable. So profitable
that they're willing to change the rules of the game to bring even more of
it their way. They see the destruction of the UCI as an opportunity to take
over almost the entire world of professional cycling, and place all the
power at the hands of the promoter, and none of it with the athletes.
Athletes should be interchangeable. The race itself is the key asset. You
need control of the media (which the ASO happens to own) and access to the
roads (can you imagine an organization other than the ASO trying to secure
permissions to run a major race in France?).

Let's look at what the ASO has to say about themselves, from their own
website-

===========================================
Amaury Sport Organisation belongs to the French press group, E.P.A (Philippe
Amaury Publications), which owns the newspapers and magazine publications l'Equipe,
France Football, l'Equipe Magazine, Vélo Magazine, Le Parisien and Aujourd'hui
in France. The group has also developed an audio-visual branch, with the
creation of l'Equipe TV, and new technologies with the web-sites
www.lequipe.fr and www.leparisien.fr, to such an extent that it is today one
of the key figures in the French media world.
A.S.O., created in September 1992, is specialised in the organisation of
renowned sports events, such as the Tour de France, the Dakar and the Paris
Marathon. Over the last few years, the company has expanded, A.S.O. having
intensified its activities in the domain of cycling (Paris-Nice, Tour of
Qatar, Tour du Faso) and taken up new disciplines, such as golf (the Open de
France, the oldest tournament on the European continent) and equestrian
sports (creating for the occasion a yearly event christened R.I.D.E :
Rencontres Internationales des Disciplines Equestres).

Behind the range of internationally renowned and recognised events, Amaury
Sport Organisation is focused on a precise goal : the design and management
of spectacular top flight competitions respecting the sporting code of
values and ethics, with long-term dedication.

A.S.O. is an enterprise organised in terms of «professional skills». From
the competition design, in conjunction with sports federations and official
institutions, to the development of partnership programmes, logistics, the
media, publishing, Internet, public relations, and the production and
commercialisation of television programmes, A.S.O. marshals all the skills
and know how required for creating and organising major sporting events or
smaller sports gatherings. Each of these events benefits from logistics and
methods adapted to its position in the sporting calendar, with a commitment
to permanent quality and perfect organisation.
===========================================

This has nothing whatsoever to do with getting someone French to win the
TdF. That's probably a convenient, incidental smokescreen that serves to
make the ASO appear to be interested in something other than complete
control of cycling, in order to leverage a monopoly position into big $$$.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"jean-yves hervé" > wrote in message
...
| In article >,
| dave a > wrote:
|
| > wrote:
| > > On Feb 25, 5:04 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" >
| > > wrote:
| > >> The latest move by the UCI- which essentially sounds like a "quiet"
way of
| > >> telling the ProTour teams they aren't going to be racing Paris
Roubaix...
| > >> no
| > >> UCI support, no race points, "no winner" etc... will McQuaid get
enough
| > >> support from the ProTour teams to hold this together? Can he afford
even a
| > >> single defection from a non-French team? And has he backed the ASO
into a
| > >> corner such that there's no way they'll reconsider their position
this
| > >> year,
| > >> and run National & Regional teams in the TdF, just as they have in
the
| > >> way-back days, and believe it will still be an event to watch?
| > >
| > > No.
| >
| > It would seem to me that McQuaid has backed himself into a corner. If
| > he doesn't have the support of every ProTour team, he has no power at
| > all. This is the end of the UCI and the ProTour. ASO will now be able
| > to invite whoever they want and a French team will win the Tour Day
France.
|
| You guys are getting really annoying repeating the same **** over and
| over as if this was going to make it true. ASO is not in the business
| of making a French team (or a French rider) win the TdF. They are in
| the business of making money. Of course ASO would love for a frenchman
| to win the TDF, but no French rider is a legitimate GC contender and
| everybody in France knows that. They may serve that with a good helping
| of sour grapes ("all the other guys are doping"), but nobody expects
| Chavanel/Moreau/Moncoutié/Voeckler to be a serious contender. In the
| current state of things, ASO's absolute upper-bound hopes are for
| o 3-4 wins by French riders (1-2 more realistic),
| o 2-3 more wins by riders on a French team,
| o a French rider wears a distinctive jersey for a week,
| o a competitive GC competition,
| o no prominent rider gets caught.
| Prudhomme would sign for something like that if you could guarantee it
| to him.
|
| jyh.

[[email protected]]

On Feb 25, 9:21 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" > wrote:
>
> This has nothing whatsoever to do with getting someone French to win the
> TdF. That's probably a convenient, incidental smokescreen that serves to
> make the ASO appear to be interested in something other than complete
> control of cycling, in order to leverage a monopoly position into big $$$.
>

"Given that it is the role of an International Federation to safeguard
the general interests of its sport from the influence of commercial
groups, the UCI invites all the members of its extended family to
stand by it in what will most certainly be difficult times ahead, and
to oppose the unacceptable insubordination of ASO and its allies"
- UCI press release

Paddy's a-huffing and a-puffing like a headmaster on crack, but whose
house will get blown down?

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article >,
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:

> "dave a" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > It would seem to me that McQuaid has backed himself into a corner. If he
> > doesn't have the support of every ProTour team, he has no power at all.
>
> I disagree. The teams cannot allow ASO and others to control cycling to the
> extent that they now wish to. ASO is also acting almost insanely and can
> well completely destroy themselves.

Huh. The teams (by which I really mean the riders themselves, as the
talent) might have a chance of standing up to the ASO, but they're not
especially interested in carrying water for the UCI, and why should they?

The ASO has proven competent and talented at putting on a tremendously
entertaining set of bike races. The cyclists themselves seem to be
powerless to stand together and assert their value as the talent, which
is strange, but there you go.

As for the UCI, they came up with the idea of the ProTour, and then
seemed baffled by the outcome when they started trying to exercise
control over the invitation list for ASO races (and other GTs). The ASO
et al seemed to put up with this treatment for a little while before
they decided, for whatever reason, to assert the right to send out their
own invitations.

The ASO is, in my opinion, flexing its muscles in a fairly odd manner. I
agree with those who would claim that Astana is hardly the same team it
was last year (which suggests that the real enemy is perceived to be
whatever remnants of the Tailwind machine they can still hurt). I'd say
that while the ASO is hardly behaving well or nicely, there is one
difference between their exercise of power and any similar flexing by
the UCI: they can back up their threats with consequences.

But here I return to the poor riders and the question of why they have
no power in this whole messy affair. And the answer is simple: because
cycling is not a professional sport.

I know, that sounds glib, or purely idiotic, and technically it's not
true. The elite riders are certainly pro athletes, and a very few
actually make 7-figure salaries, at least after you roll in those
lucrative mattress endorsements*. There are a few hundred, maybe even a
few thousand road racers whose primary source of income is road racing.

The problem is that the salaries, aside from a very few elites, are
chicken feed. The minimum UCI ProTour salary (EUR 30k or so still?) is
fairly close to the Arena Football minimum salary:

<http://www.orlandopredators.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=3700&ATCLID=2
97761&SPID=1739>

Canadian Football League (basically, the second-best gridiron-football
league in the world after the NFL) players make about the same kinds of
salaries as pro cyclists. So do American Hockey League (NHL farm teams)
players, though the top end of cyclist salaries would be (middling) NHL
money.

In other words, the riders get treated like dirt. I know it's hard to
monetize open-air road races where nobody pays an admission fee, but the
race has 15 million live spectators and pays about 3 million euro in
prizes.

There's a sense in which Le Tour is 21 of the most important single-day
races on the calendar. Certainly that is how it must feel to the
sprinters and other non-GC riders. If so, well, those races pay about
7000 Euro for a win. At least the Tour still has that big 400,000 purse
for the GC winner.

Look at Paris-Roubaix, one of the most important races on the calendar:
EUR 30,000 for the winner. 15th place, at least in 2002, paid 385 Euros.

http://210.10.97.10/news/?id=2002/apr02/apr13news

I haven't seen enough of the race organizer's ledgers to say whether
this represents an obscenely penurious approach to revenue-sharing with
the racers. But it's clear that ProTour cyclists don't make much money
from their salaries, and don't make much money from their race winnings.
I think it's fair to guess that if you're driven enough to be a
ProTour-level cyclist, and you're not one of the ten best cyclists in
the world, you'd be better off taking up a trade and getting properly
compensated for your work ethic. Also, nobody cares if their carpenter
is using steroids.

But as I've said before, I find pro cycling entertaining enough, but
somehow derive almost all of my joy in this sport from beer-league
races, both as a participant and spectator.

* <http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/rbr/matelas.jpg>

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[jean-yves hervé]

In article >,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" > wrote:

> | You guys are getting really annoying repeating the same **** over and
> | over as if this was going to make it true. ASO is not in the business
> | of making a French team (or a French rider) win the TdF.
>
> *One* post referenced a French *team* winning the TdF. And that could
> happen, even with all the ProTour teams there. Nobody said the ASO was doing
> this so that a Frenchman would win the TdF.

What I was reacting against was not really the French team/rider story,
but the claim that you, TK, and others keep making that somehow because
ASO have decided not to invite Astana it means that they are going to
end up inviting only national or regional teams, presumably preferably
french, and turn the TdF into some kind of crap race. This is funny in
a sense because the people making that claim generally come across most
of the time as "pro business" folks but somehow on that one they seem to
be under the impression that the business, ASO, is bent on slicing their
own throat wouldn't it be for the benevolent bureaucracy, UCI, that is
fighting for the good of cycling.

> | They are in the business of making money. Of course ASO would love for a
> frenchman
> | to win the TDF, but no French rider is a legitimate GC contender and
> | everybody in France knows that. They may serve that with a good helping
> | of sour grapes ("all the other guys are doping"), but nobody expects
> | Chavanel/Moreau/Moncoutié/Voeckler to be a serious contender. In the
> | current state of things, ASO's absolute upper-bound hopes are for
> | o 3-4 wins by French riders (1-2 more realistic),
> | o 2-3 more wins by riders on a French team,
> | o a French rider wears a distinctive jersey for a week,
> | o a competitive GC competition,
> | o no prominent rider gets caught.
> | Prudhomme would sign for something like that if you could guarantee it
> | to him.
> |
> | jyh.
>
> No disagreement with any of that. But I think you misunderstanding what
> others are saying. This is a power game for control of bike racing, and the
> money that goes along with it. The ASO is apparently one of the few
> organizations that has found cycling to be truly profitable. So profitable
> that they're willing to change the rules of the game to bring even more of
> it their way. They see the destruction of the UCI as an opportunity to take
> over almost the entire world of professional cycling, and place all the
> power at the hands of the promoter, and none of it with the athletes.

The fighting between ASO and UCI started when UCI came up with the
ProTour, which was half-baked idea that UCI try to impose to the
organizers. If anything, considering how opposed ASO were to the
ProTour from the beginning, the only thing that I find surprising is how
long it took for them to start using their power.

> Athletes should be interchangeable. The race itself is the key asset. You
> need control of the media (which the ASO happens to own) and access to the
> roads (can you imagine an organization other than the ASO trying to secure
> permissions to run a major race in France?).

I have no problem doing that because not so long ago they did not
operate Paris-Nice, and I don't think that they operate the Dauphiné
(yet). Actually they probably own fewer than 20% of races run in
France.

>
> Let's look at what the ASO has to say about themselves, from their own
> website-
>
> ===========================================
> Amaury Sport Organisation belongs to the French press group, E.P.A (Philippe
> Amaury Publications), which owns the newspapers and magazine publications
> l'Equipe,[...]
>
> This has nothing whatsoever to do with getting someone French to win the
> TdF. That's probably a convenient, incidental smokescreen that serves to
> make the ASO appear to be interested in something other than complete
> control of cycling, in order to leverage a monopoly position into big $$$.

You lost me here. What constitutes a smokescreen to ASO's nefarious
plans?

I am no great fan of ASO in general, but I support their fight against
UCI regarding the ProTour. I also believe that you are wrong when you
claim that ASO think that having a bunch of faceless participants to the
TdF is a desirable outcome. If anything, they have tried hard over the
last 20 years to make sure that the top riders would take part to the
Tour (maybe you don't remember the time when the top Italians did not
ride in the Tour; it's not that ancient).

jyh.

[TM]

"Ryan Cousineau" > wrote in message >
>
> The ASO is, in my opinion, flexing its muscles in a fairly odd manner. I
> agree with those who would claim that Astana is hardly the same team it
> was last year (which suggests that the real enemy is perceived to be
> whatever remnants of the Tailwind machine they can still hurt).

It is not odd to protect your biggest asset. If they have another tainted
tdf it will be crippling for business. Contador and Astana both make that
likely. Contador because he is involved with Puerto. Astana because they
**** the bed last year and that WAS their second chance. The remnants of
tailwind is a red herring that the fans of Trek sponsored riders like to
throw out.



I'd say
> that while the ASO is hardly behaving well or nicely, there is one
> difference between their exercise of power and any similar flexing by
> the UCI: they can back up their threats with consequences.
>
> But here I return to the poor riders and the question of why they have
> no power in this whole messy affair. And the answer is simple: because
> cycling is not a professional sport.
>
>

It is a professional sport that is mismanaged. The real franchises in the
sport are the races. They need to form a league and run it the way that
brings in the most money to them. That way the future of the sport is
secure and there is something for the riders to get a share.

My hope is that we are seeing the beginning of the ASO and RAS breaking away
from the UCI. Cycling needs to be run with an eye toward the bottom line
and not the fine print. It has had one foot as a pro sport and one foot as
an amatuer sport long enough. Screw the Olympics. Who cares if major teams
contest every race? In any other sport the uci would be called the 'rules
committee'.

[Tom Kunich]

"TM" > wrote in message ...
>
> Contador because he is involved with Puerto.

The claim was that Contador was not involved and that he supplied blood and
DNA samples and the investigators withdrew his name.

Do you know something else?

[TM]

"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
...
> "TM" > wrote in message ...
>>
>> Contador because he is involved with Puerto.
>
> The claim was that Contador was not involved and that he supplied blood
> and DNA samples and the investigators withdrew his name.
>
> Do you know something else?
>
>

I know that some riders will be convicted of doping violations from puerto
and they will not have a dna match.

[[email protected]]

On Feb 26, 10:19 am, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> "TM" > wrote in ...
>
> > Contador because he is involved with Puerto.
>
> The claim was that Contador was not involved and that he supplied blood and
> DNA samples and the investigators withdrew his name.
>
> Do you know something else?

dumbass,

i do, i said i'd bet you on it.

[Michael Press]

In article >, "TM" > wrote:

> It is not odd to protect your biggest asset. If they have another tainted
> tdf it will be crippling for business. Contador and Astana both make that
> likely. Contador because he is involved with Puerto. Astana because they
> **** the bed last year and that WAS their second chance. The remnants of
> tailwind is a red herring that the fans of Trek sponsored riders like to
> throw out.
>

If they want a clean race they have to make sure
nobody is _caught_ doping. <wink>

--
Michael Press

[Michael Press]

In article >,
jean-yves hervé > wrote:

> I have no problem doing that because not so long ago they did not
> operate Paris-Nice, and I don't think that they operate the Dauphiné
> (yet). Actually they probably own fewer than 20% of races run in
> France.

Which 20%?

--
Michael Press

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

>> It is not odd to protect your biggest asset. If they have another
>> tainted
>> tdf it will be crippling for business. Contador and Astana both make
>> that
>> likely. Contador because he is involved with Puerto. Astana because
>> they
>> **** the bed last year and that WAS their second chance. The remnants of
>> tailwind is a red herring that the fans of Trek sponsored riders like to
>> throw out.
>>
>
> If they want a clean race they have to make sure
> nobody is _caught_ doping. <wink>

Which is exactly the problem. The ASO should see positive doping tests as an
indication that things are working, and a sign to others that they might get
caught. A lack of positive tests is not, to me, a good sign that people
aren't doping. Rather, my cynical viewpoint is that it's a sign that people
aren't getting caught.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


"Michael Press" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "TM" > wrote:
>
>> It is not odd to protect your biggest asset. If they have another
>> tainted
>> tdf it will be crippling for business. Contador and Astana both make
>> that
>> likely. Contador because he is involved with Puerto. Astana because
>> they
>> **** the bed last year and that WAS their second chance. The remnants of
>> tailwind is a red herring that the fans of Trek sponsored riders like to
>> throw out.
>>
>
> If they want a clean race they have to make sure
> nobody is _caught_ doping. <wink>
>
> --
> Michael Press

[jean-yves hervé]

In article >,
Michael Press > wrote:

> In article >,
> jean-yves hervé > wrote:
>
> > I have no problem doing that because not so long ago they did not
> > operate Paris-Nice, and I don't think that they operate the Dauphiné
> > (yet). Actually they probably own fewer than 20% of races run in
> > France.
>
> Which 20%?

The 20% that actually makes money, either directly or because it drives
the sales of l'Équipe. As far as I know ASO only owns the Tour,
Paris-Roubaix, Paris-Nice, and Paris-Tour (I am only talking of races
held in France). That leaves out quite a few races, but of these only
the Dauphiné Libéré, le Criterium International, les 4 Jours de
Dunkerque, Paris-Bourges, and maybe the Gd Prix de la Montagne and the
Gd Prix de Plouaix, draw any attention at all out of France.

jyh.

[Carl Sundquist]

"jean-yves hervé" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Michael Press > wrote:
>
>> In article >,
>> jean-yves hervé > wrote:
>>
>> > I have no problem doing that because not so long ago they did not
>> > operate Paris-Nice, and I don't think that they operate the Dauphiné
>> > (yet). Actually they probably own fewer than 20% of races run in
>> > France.
>>
>> Which 20%?
>
> The 20% that actually makes money, either directly or because it drives
> the sales of l'Équipe. As far as I know ASO only owns the Tour,
> Paris-Roubaix, Paris-Nice, and Paris-Tour (I am only talking of races
> held in France). That leaves out quite a few races, but of these only
> the Dauphiné Libéré, le Criterium International, les 4 Jours de
> Dunkerque, Paris-Bourges, and maybe the Gd Prix de la Montagne and the
> Gd Prix de Plouaix, draw any attention at all out of France.
>
> jyh.

http://www.aso.fr/evenements/events_us.html

French (pro) races:

Criterium International
Paris-Roubaix
Tour de Picardie
Tour de l'Avenir
Paris Tours


Non French races:
Tour of Qatar
Fleche Wallonne
LBL

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article >,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" > wrote:

> >> It is not odd to protect your biggest asset. If they have another
> >> tainted
> >> tdf it will be crippling for business. Contador and Astana both make
> >> that
> >> likely. Contador because he is involved with Puerto. Astana because
> >> they
> >> **** the bed last year and that WAS their second chance. The remnants of
> >> tailwind is a red herring that the fans of Trek sponsored riders like to
> >> throw out.
> >>
> >
> > If they want a clean race they have to make sure
> > nobody is _caught_ doping. <wink>
>
> Which is exactly the problem. The ASO should see positive doping tests as an
> indication that things are working, and a sign to others that they might get
> caught. A lack of positive tests is not, to me, a good sign that people
> aren't doping. Rather, my cynical viewpoint is that it's a sign that people
> aren't getting caught.

The problem, of course, with this enlightened view, is that it implies
that if you are not catching witches, then you are not hunting hard
enough.

Of course, cycling suffers from a very real witch infestation, which
only makes the problem of witchlessness harder, eh? I mean, if what
we're doing now starts working, when will we know?

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[Donald Munro]

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> Of course, cycling suffers from a very real witch infestation,

You mean the podium girls ? :
<http://www.joyofspex.com/models/zilleImages/zille_witch/index.html>

[Bob Schwartz]

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> Of course, cycling suffers from a very real witch infestation, which
> only makes the problem of witchlessness harder, eh? I mean, if what
> we're doing now starts working, when will we know?

Sport, not just cycling but all of sport, has never been
threatened with witchlessness.

So I wouldn't be concerned with not recognizing when things
start working.

Bob Schwartz

[Michael Press]

In article >,
jean-yves hervé > wrote:

> In article >,
> Michael Press > wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > jean-yves hervé > wrote:
> >
> > > I have no problem doing that because not so long ago they did not
> > > operate Paris-Nice, and I don't think that they operate the Dauphiné
> > > (yet). Actually they probably own fewer than 20% of races run in
> > > France.
> >
> > Which 20%?
>
> The 20% that actually makes money, either directly or because it drives
> the sales of l'Équipe. As far as I know ASO only owns the Tour,
> Paris-Roubaix, Paris-Nice, and Paris-Tour (I am only talking of races
> held in France). That leaves out quite a few races, but of these only
> the Dauphiné Libéré, le Criterium International, les 4 Jours de
> Dunkerque, Paris-Bourges, and maybe the Gd Prix de la Montagne and the
> Gd Prix de Plouaix, draw any attention at all out of France.

Thanks.

--
Michael Press

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article >,
Donald Munro > wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > Of course, cycling suffers from a very real witch infestation,
>
> You mean the podium girls ? :
> <http://www.joyofspex.com/models/zilleImages/zille_witch/index.html>

No I do not mean the podium girls. You're also trying to get me in
trouble with the missus, just like Ted. I should have know better than
to follow the link.

Honestly, my guess was you were linking to another picture of the Volta
ao Algarve podium girls. They weren't exactly witches, but conversely I
think they're about as likely to get invited to Le Tour as Astana.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article >,
Bob Schwartz > wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > Of course, cycling suffers from a very real witch infestation, which
> > only makes the problem of witchlessness harder, eh? I mean, if what
> > we're doing now starts working, when will we know?
>
> Sport, not just cycling but all of sport, has never been
> threatened with witchlessness.
>
> So I wouldn't be concerned with not recognizing when things
> start working.

Well, I think it's fair to say that the hunting of witches in cycling
has never been more aggressive than today. The catching of witches also
seems to be way up, but that's expected.

The question is whether or not this new and improved witch hunting will
lead to the witches fleeing the scene for some friendlier territory like
bodybuilding or fattie-master industrial-park crits.

Partnership for a Witch-Free ProTour,

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[Bob Schwartz]

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> Well, I think it's fair to say that the hunting of witches in cycling
> has never been more aggressive than today. The catching of witches also
> seems to be way up, but that's expected.

Merckx got popped a bunch of times. But not as many times as
Freddy "Stimul" Maertens. Freddy was in a class by himself.

In the pre-WADA days, if you were capable of producing an
Olympic medal the odds were good that your national
federation (which administered doping cases in the pre-WADA
days) would manufacture technical grounds for dismissal of
any doping positives you might incur. And then dismiss them.

How many times did LANCE come up positive. Oh yeah, none.
And neither did Pantani. His Giro expulsion was a two week
break to improve his health. It wasn't a positive test.

If you count lab positives and not law enforcement positives
I think doping positives are way down.

Bob Schwartz

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

| How many times did LANCE come up positive. Oh yeah, none.
| And neither did Pantani. His Giro expulsion was a two week
| break to improve his health. It wasn't a positive test.


There was no reliable test at the time for detecting EPO, but they could
most certainly find the results. And given that athletes had the ability to
both manipulate and measure their hematocrit levels, and that they knew what
levels constituted a mandatory suspension for "health" reasons... I would
consider that Pantani did, in fact, fail a doping test. Is that the same as
testing "positive?" Effectively, yes.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

[Donald Munro]

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>> > Of course, cycling suffers from a very real witch infestation,

Donald Munro wrote:
>> You mean the podium girls ? :
>> <http://www.joyofspex.com/models/zilleImages/zille_witch/index.html>

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> No I do not mean the podium girls. You're also trying to get me in trouble
> with the missus, just like Ted. I should have know better than to follow
> the link.

Nobody said you had to click on the thumbnails.

[SLAVE of THE STATE]

On Feb 27, 8:04*pm, Bob Schwartz
> And neither did Pantani. His Giro expulsion was a two week
> break to improve his health. It wasn't a positive test.

That's a mere legality of language. Sorta like the first day of
spring.

The ch7 weatherman said last night that spring has sprung. And
looking out the window, I'd say it is so.

That means it is time for my pets to begin spring afternoon training
rides.

[Bob Schwartz]

SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:
> On Feb 27, 8:04 pm, Bob Schwartz
>> And neither did Pantani. His Giro expulsion was a two week
>> break to improve his health. It wasn't a positive test.
>
> That's a mere legality of language.

Language is important in law. The UCI did not consider
having too rich blood to be a positive test result. In
the court of rbr, things are different.

I miss Pantani. He was entertaining. If he were still
alive he'd certainly be riding for Rock.

Bob Schwartz

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> I miss Pantani. He was entertaining. If he were still
> alive he'd certainly be riding for Rock

I have vivid memories of watching him on Ventoux the year he & Lance had
their disagreement. Pantani was all over the map on that climb. He'd be off
the front, then off the back, and all over his bike. One of the few who
would climb from the drops... standing. I was at a small chateaux near the
base of the climb, with a group that included people who had a clue about
racing and others who... well, didn't. Those that didn't, and hadn't watched
Pantani race before, were certain each time he came off the back that it was
all over for him. After the 2nd or 3rd time, you'd think they would have
learned.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


"Bob Schwartz" > wrote in message
...
> SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:
>> On Feb 27, 8:04 pm, Bob Schwartz
>>> And neither did Pantani. His Giro expulsion was a two week
>>> break to improve his health. It wasn't a positive test.
>>
>> That's a mere legality of language.
>
> Language is important in law. The UCI did not consider
> having too rich blood to be a positive test result. In
> the court of rbr, things are different.
>
> I miss Pantani. He was entertaining. If he were still
> alive he'd certainly be riding for Rock.
>
> Bob Schwartz

[[email protected]]

On Feb 27, 11:04 pm, Bob Schwartz >
wrote:

> If you count lab positives and not law enforcement positives
> I think doping positives are way down.
>

dumbass,

i agree. doping tests are a lousy way to catch dopers.

[Howard Kveck]

In article >,
Bob Schwartz > wrote:

> I miss Pantani. He was entertaining. If he were still
> alive he'd certainly be riding for Rock.

Well, he'd be on Rock. The "riding" part is another matter, as some of Ball's guys
now know.

--
tanx,
Howard

Whatever happened to
Leon Trotsky?
He got an icepick
That made his ears burn.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

[Donald Munro]

Bob Schwartz wrote:
> I miss Pantani. He was entertaining. If he were still alive he'd certainly
> be riding for Rock.

Presumably no shortage of coke and rollable SUV's in the Rock camp.