Professional in name only

[Bill C]

De Bonis out of Lugano
By Susan Westemeyer

Gerolsteiner has withdrawn Francesco De Bonis from its line-up for
this weekend's Gran Premio di Lugano, and will hold him out of
competition for two weeks. The Italian is being treated with cortisone
for a bee sting, and under the regulations of the Movement for
Credible Cycling, he may not ride, even with a therapeutic use
exemption.

It's a complete and total joke. Can someone point me to another
credible "Pro" sport where this would even be concievable?
We'd never have a game in the NFL, or NHL for sure. The other thing
ta's crazy is that the anti-doping crusaders find this perfectly
rational and acceptable.
I can see it now; "Hey Manning you got stung by a bee and took
cortisone. You're out of the Superbowl."
Makes sense, right?
Bill C

[[email protected]]

On Feb 29, 7:24*am, Bill C > wrote:
> De Bonis out of Lugano
> By Susan Westemeyer
>
> Gerolsteiner has withdrawn Francesco De Bonis from its line-up for
> this weekend's Gran Premio di Lugano, and will hold him out of
> competition for two weeks. The Italian is being treated with cortisone
> for a bee sting, and under the regulations of the Movement for
> Credible Cycling, he may not ride, even with a therapeutic use
> exemption.
>
> It's a complete and total joke. Can someone point me to another
> credible "Pro" sport where this would even be concievable?
> *We'd never have a game in the NFL, or NHL for sure. The other thing
> ta's crazy is that the anti-doping crusaders find this perfectly
> rational and acceptable.
> *I can see it now; "Hey Manning you got stung by a bee and took
> cortisone. You're out of the Superbowl."
> *Makes sense, right?
> Bill C

It's the War on People, Bill.

Like not giving the terminally ill sufficient pain meds: "We wouldn't
want them to become addicted".
--D-y

[Bill C]

On Feb 29, 10:41*am, " >
wrote:
> On Feb 29, 7:24*am, Bill C > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > De Bonis out of Lugano
> > By Susan Westemeyer
>
> > Gerolsteiner has withdrawn Francesco De Bonis from its line-up for
> > this weekend's Gran Premio di Lugano, and will hold him out of
> > competition for two weeks. The Italian is being treated with cortisone
> > for a bee sting, and under the regulations of the Movement for
> > Credible Cycling, he may not ride, even with a therapeutic use
> > exemption.
>
> > It's a complete and total joke. Can someone point me to another
> > credible "Pro" sport where this would even be concievable?
> > *We'd never have a game in the NFL, or NHL for sure. The other thing
> > ta's crazy is that the anti-doping crusaders find this perfectly
> > rational and acceptable.
> > *I can see it now; "Hey Manning you got stung by a bee and took
> > cortisone. You're out of the Superbowl."
> > *Makes sense, right?
> > Bill C
>
> It's the War on People, Bill.
>
> Like not giving the terminally ill sufficient pain meds: "We wouldn't
> want them to become addicted".
> --D-y- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yeah. That's another, and actually important one. Luckily both my
Mother and Grandmother, had an old, proudly, boots covered in ****,
"Polack" doctor who did take care of both of them while battling
cancer, Paget's disease, etc...They barred him from the local hospital
because he thought **** like that was BS and said so. A friend who's
had major alcohol problems ran into another good one. He's in a last
resort situation, and isn't drinking, because his liver had quit and
he almost died. His doc was amazed he made it out of the hospital, got
him cleaned up, gave him whatever meds he needed to stay clean, and
it's worked fantastically. His Doc retired because he was sick of the
BS. They assigned him to a new doc, but he was on vacation for a
month, so when my friend ran out of meds, they refused to write a new
script, until he'd seen the new Doc in three weeks. Without the meds
he's probably dead in a week. No problem, right? He had to track down
his old doctor, get a script, pay full non-insurance price since the
Doc wasn't part of an approved provider anymore, because they were
afraid of having the government come down on them for "not up to
standards" prescriptions, and drug dealing.
Anyway, post rant. Here's another example of the difference between
cycling and a real Pro sport:

http://www.theadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080229/NEWS01/802290335/1002

Quoted:

Faulk told The Advertiser on Thursday that he immediately informed the
Patriots of the incident and denied any drug use to coach Bill
Belichick.

"It was not my jacket,'' Faulk said. "As soon as I got back to Boston,
I talked to coach Belichick. I told him that the drug test would come
back clean. He said he believed me.''

Brothers said that the negative drug test would keep Faulk from having
to enter the NFL's substance abuse system. "Kevin doesn't want his
fans to think that he's not taking responsibility for having it on his
person," he said, "but he definitely shouldn't be having his name drug
through the mud like is being done right now.

What a difference , huh? No two year ban because they read his mind.
Totally transparent, through the actual legal system, a clean test,
and he's allowed to get on with his life.
Gotta be all wrong, right? Can't let a little thing like a passed
test, stand in the way of "justice". They should've just kept lab
shopping until they got a positive. Isn't that the procedure?
Bill C

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 05:24:03 -0800 (PST), Bill C
> wrote:

>De Bonis out of Lugano
>By Susan Westemeyer
>
>Gerolsteiner has withdrawn Francesco De Bonis from its line-up for
>this weekend's Gran Premio di Lugano, and will hold him out of
>competition for two weeks. The Italian is being treated with cortisone
>for a bee sting, and under the regulations of the Movement for
>Credible Cycling, he may not ride, even with a therapeutic use
>exemption.

This is ridiculous.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

On Feb 29, 5:24*am, Bill C > wrote:
> De Bonis out of Lugano
> By Susan Westemeyer
>
> Gerolsteiner has withdrawn Francesco De Bonis from its line-up for
> this weekend's Gran Premio di Lugano, and will hold him out of
> competition for two weeks. The Italian is being treated with cortisone
> for a bee sting, and under the regulations of the Movement for
> Credible Cycling, he may not ride, even with a therapeutic use
> exemption.
>
> It's a complete and total joke. Can someone point me to another
> credible "Pro" sport where this would even be concievable?
> *We'd never have a game in the NFL, or NHL for sure. The other thing
> ta's crazy is that the anti-doping crusaders find this perfectly
> rational and acceptable.
> *I can see it now; "Hey Manning you got stung by a bee and took
> cortisone. You're out of the Superbowl."



Dumbass -


The NFL allows cortisone.

When a player gets dinged and goes to the locker room, he's going
there so they can shoot him up with it.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

[Fred Fredburger[_3_]]

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> On Feb 29, 5:24 am, Bill C > wrote:
>> De Bonis out of Lugano
>> By Susan Westemeyer
>>
>> Gerolsteiner has withdrawn Francesco De Bonis from its line-up for
>> this weekend's Gran Premio di Lugano, and will hold him out of
>> competition for two weeks. The Italian is being treated with cortisone
>> for a bee sting, and under the regulations of the Movement for
>> Credible Cycling, he may not ride, even with a therapeutic use
>> exemption.
>>
>> It's a complete and total joke. Can someone point me to another
>> credible "Pro" sport where this would even be concievable?
>> We'd never have a game in the NFL, or NHL for sure. The other thing
>> ta's crazy is that the anti-doping crusaders find this perfectly
>> rational and acceptable.
>> I can see it now; "Hey Manning you got stung by a bee and took
>> cortisone. You're out of the Superbowl."
>
>
>
> Dumbass -
>
>
> The NFL allows cortisone.
>
> When a player gets dinged and goes to the locker room, he's going
> there so they can shoot him up with it.
>

Or pain killers. Probably the most famous example of that was Brett
Favre's addiction to pain killers.

Terrell Owens took too many once in what was widely reported as a
suicide attempt. I believe he played the following Sunday.

[[email protected]]

On Feb 29, 8:24 am, Bill C > wrote:
> De Bonis out of Lugano
> By Susan Westemeyer
>
> Gerolsteiner has withdrawn Francesco De Bonis from its line-up for
> this weekend's Gran Premio di Lugano, and will hold him out of
> competition for two weeks. The Italian is being treated with cortisone
> for a bee sting, and under the regulations of the Movement for
> Credible Cycling, he may not ride, even with a therapeutic use
> exemption.
>
> It's a complete and total joke. Can someone point me to another
> credible "Pro" sport where this would even be concievable?
> We'd never have a game in the NFL, or NHL for sure. The other thing
> ta's crazy is that the anti-doping crusaders find this perfectly
> rational and acceptable.
> I can see it now; "Hey Manning you got stung by a bee and took
> cortisone. You're out of the Superbowl."
> Makes sense, right?
> Bill C

dumbass,

who care ?

[Bill C]

On Feb 29, 8:12*pm, " >
wrote:
> On Feb 29, 8:24 am, Bill C > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > De Bonis out of Lugano
> > By Susan Westemeyer
>
> > Gerolsteiner has withdrawn Francesco De Bonis from its line-up for
> > this weekend's Gran Premio di Lugano, and will hold him out of
> > competition for two weeks. The Italian is being treated with cortisone
> > for a bee sting, and under the regulations of the Movement for
> > Credible Cycling, he may not ride, even with a therapeutic use
> > exemption.
>
> > It's a complete and total joke. Can someone point me to another
> > credible "Pro" sport where this would even be concievable?
> > *We'd never have a game in the NFL, or NHL for sure. The other thing
> > ta's crazy is that the anti-doping crusaders find this perfectly
> > rational and acceptable.
> > *I can see it now; "Hey Manning you got stung by a bee and took
> > cortisone. You're out of the Superbowl."
> > *Makes sense, right?
> > Bill C
>
> dumbass,
>
> who care ?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

****loads of people apparently since cycling is losing boatloads of
money, races, public goodwill, etc...since they do stupid **** like
this. You actually made a good point earlier in that Pro, and amateur
cycling, like most sports are totally different worlds, with totally
different goals, and that the UCI is screwing the pooch trying to run
both.
Do you really think any fan out there thinks professional racers
should be banned for receiving basic medical treatment of the same
kind that they get on a routine basis? They sure don't in any other
sports.
Soccer types were supposedly involved in Puerto too, but you don't
hear a peep because FIFA isn't suicidal like cycling, and they know
the fans really don't give a crap.
Hopefully this finishes off the current system and they setup a real
Pro league, for Pro's. This crap that making money is evil, in a Pro
sport, is beyond moronic, and it's pretty dumb to expect someone who
thinks that way to run a money based entertainment form, and grow it.
It's a friggin business as Kurgan keeps pointing out, but the UCI is
totally anti-business and seem to think they are a religion of some
sort.
I'm not sure that they can save cycling from going the way of the
NHL, for about the same reasons at this point, pure stupidity from the
people running it.
Turn the Pro side of the sport over to a new body run by someone like
Richard Branson.
Bill C

[[email protected]]

On Feb 29, 9:29 pm, Bill C > wrote:
> On Feb 29, 8:12 pm, " >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 29, 8:24 am, Bill C > wrote:
>
> > > De Bonis out of Lugano
> > > By Susan Westemeyer
>
> > > Gerolsteiner has withdrawn Francesco De Bonis from its line-up for
> > > this weekend's Gran Premio di Lugano, and will hold him out of
> > > competition for two weeks. The Italian is being treated with cortisone
> > > for a bee sting, and under the regulations of the Movement for
> > > Credible Cycling, he may not ride, even with a therapeutic use
> > > exemption.
>
> > > It's a complete and total joke. Can someone point me to another
> > > credible "Pro" sport where this would even be concievable?
> > > We'd never have a game in the NFL, or NHL for sure. The other thing
> > > ta's crazy is that the anti-doping crusaders find this perfectly
> > > rational and acceptable.
> > > I can see it now; "Hey Manning you got stung by a bee and took
> > > cortisone. You're out of the Superbowl."
> > > Makes sense, right?
> > > Bill C
>
> > dumbass,
>
> > who care ?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> ****loads of people apparently

dumbass,

i supposed to be upset because some dude i've never heard of and who
probably has a fridge full of wiener blut in vienna can't race the
bob's bike and mower grand prix ?

it's PR spin of an inconsequential gesture. a star rider would never
be kept out of an important race under the same circumstances.

the movement for credible cycling is PR psychobabble. there are
probably substitutes he could use without a TUE and even if he used a
TUE no one would care. it's a red herring - cortisone TUEs aren't the
cause of cycling's problems.

[Shirley Fredburger]

wrote:
it's a red herring

OH, NOOOOOOOOO!

[Bill C]

On Feb 29, 10:09*pm, " >
wrote:
> On Feb 29, 9:29 pm, Bill C > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 29, 8:12 pm, " >
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 29, 8:24 am, Bill C > wrote:
>
> > > > De Bonis out of Lugano
> > > > By Susan Westemeyer
>
> > > > Gerolsteiner has withdrawn Francesco De Bonis from its line-up for
> > > > this weekend's Gran Premio di Lugano, and will hold him out of
> > > > competition for two weeks. The Italian is being treated with cortisone
> > > > for a bee sting, and under the regulations of the Movement for
> > > > Credible Cycling, he may not ride, even with a therapeutic use
> > > > exemption.
>
> > > > It's a complete and total joke. Can someone point me to another
> > > > credible "Pro" sport where this would even be concievable?
> > > > *We'd never have a game in the NFL, or NHL for sure. The other thing
> > > > ta's crazy is that the anti-doping crusaders find this perfectly
> > > > rational and acceptable.
> > > > *I can see it now; "Hey Manning you got stung by a bee and took
> > > > cortisone. You're out of the Superbowl."
> > > > *Makes sense, right?
> > > > Bill C
>
> > > dumbass,
>
> > > who care ?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > ****loads of people apparently
>
> dumbass,
>
> i supposed to be upset because some dude i've never heard of and who
> probably has a fridge full of wiener blut in vienna can't race the
> bob's bike and mower grand prix ?
>
> it's PR spin of an inconsequential gesture. a star rider would never
> be kept out of an important race under the same circumstances.
>
> the movement for credible cycling is PR psychobabble. there are
> probably substitutes he could use without a TUE and even if he used a
> TUE no one would care. it's a red herring - cortisone TUEs aren't the
> cause of cycling's problems.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Like this?:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/in_depth/2001/tour_de_france/1456643.stm
Quoted:

Wrong. The combination of a rogue southern French wasp and cycling's
strict doping rules meant Vaughters' third week of the Tour lasted
just 10km.

That's not the problem, but it's a symptom of the problem and that's
the delusional, incompetent, Napoleonic idiots running the sport who
haven't got the brains to realize that Pro sports are about
entertainment and money, and protecting those two things.
These idiots aren't even decent hack politicians, let alone competent
to run a business that processes into the hundred million dollars
area. Instead of fighting ASO they should be helping the event
organizers, teams, and competitors to grow their sport and monetary
position.
Nascar has done exactly that and they are unsophisticated hicks
according to lots of people around here. Why can't the sophisticated,
educated, oh so elite running cycling even begin to match their
performance? Maybe because the Nascar folks had no illusions about
what they are running, except in the last two, or three years where
they have been too full of themselves too and losing ratings,
sponsors, teams, and money.
Bill C

[[email protected]]

On Feb 29, 11:18 pm, Bill C > wrote:
> On Feb 29, 10:09 pm, " >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 29, 9:29 pm, Bill C > wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 29, 8:12 pm, " >
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Feb 29, 8:24 am, Bill C > wrote:
>
> > > > > De Bonis out of Lugano
> > > > > By Susan Westemeyer
>
> > > > > Gerolsteiner has withdrawn Francesco De Bonis from its line-up for
> > > > > this weekend's Gran Premio di Lugano, and will hold him out of
> > > > > competition for two weeks. The Italian is being treated with cortisone
> > > > > for a bee sting, and under the regulations of the Movement for
> > > > > Credible Cycling, he may not ride, even with a therapeutic use
> > > > > exemption.
>
> > > > > It's a complete and total joke. Can someone point me to another
> > > > > credible "Pro" sport where this would even be concievable?
> > > > > We'd never have a game in the NFL, or NHL for sure. The other thing
> > > > > ta's crazy is that the anti-doping crusaders find this perfectly
> > > > > rational and acceptable.
> > > > > I can see it now; "Hey Manning you got stung by a bee and took
> > > > > cortisone. You're out of the Superbowl."
> > > > > Makes sense, right?
> > > > > Bill C
>
> > > > dumbass,
>
> > > > who care ?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > ****loads of people apparently
>
> > dumbass,
>
> > i supposed to be upset because some dude i've never heard of and who
> > probably has a fridge full of wiener blut in vienna can't race the
> > bob's bike and mower grand prix ?
>
> > it's PR spin of an inconsequential gesture. a star rider would never
> > be kept out of an important race under the same circumstances.
>
> > the movement for credible cycling is PR psychobabble. there are
> > probably substitutes he could use without a TUE and even if he used a
> > TUE no one would care. it's a red herring - cortisone TUEs aren't the
> > cause of cycling's problems.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Like this?:http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/in_depth/2001/tour_de_france/1456643.stm
> Quoted:
>
> Wrong. The combination of a rogue southern French wasp and cycling's
> strict doping rules meant Vaughters' third week of the Tour lasted
> just 10km.
>

dumbass,

1. de bonis apparently has a TUE but he is being sidelined by his team
voluntarily

2. you don't see the irony of mr. hot-sauce having to drop out of the
tour because he had to take cortisone ?

[[email protected]]

On Feb 29, 11:18 pm, Bill C > wrote:

> Why can't the sophisticated,
> educated, oh so elite running cycling even begin to match their
> performance?

dumbass,

cycling people are the stupidest around.

i agree that pro cycling has no semblance of a professional sport, but
it's not because some schmoe has to sit two weeks because he's taking
cortisone.

the sport has way bigger problems.

[Michael Press]

In article
>,
Bill C > wrote:

> Hopefully this finishes off the current system and they setup a real
> Pro league, for Pro's. This crap that making money is evil, in a Pro sport,
> is beyond moronic, and it's pretty dumb to expect someone who thinks that
> way to run a money based entertainment form, and grow it. It's a friggin
> business as Kurgan keeps pointing out, but the UCI is totally anti-business
> and seem to think they are a religion of some sort.

Religions I know of make way more money than UCI.

--
Michael Press

[Donald Munro]

Michael Press wrote:
> Religions I know of make way more money than UCI.

LIVEDRUNK makes more money than the UCI.

[Donald Munro]

Fred Fredburger wrote:
> Or pain killers. Probably the most famous example of that was Brett
> Favre's addiction to pain killers.

Is Brett Favre a right wing talk show host ?

[Michael Baldwin]

Bill C states;

>Nascar has done exactly that and they are unsophisticated hicks
>according to lots of people around here. Why can't the
>sophisticated, educated, oh so elite running cycling even begin to
>match their performance?

_GREAT_ point! Of course Bill the answer is xxxxxxxxxxx but that would
spin this thread into a political rant.

Best Regard - Mike Baldwin

[Kurgan Gringioni]

On Feb 29, 8:18*pm, Bill C > wrote:

> *These idiots aren't even decent hack politicians, let alone competent
> to run a business that processes into the hundred million dollars
> area. Instead of fighting ASO they should be helping the event
> organizers, teams, and competitors to grow their sport and monetary
> position.
> *Nascar has done exactly that and they are unsophisticated hicks
> according to lots of people around here. Why can't the sophisticated,
> educated, oh so elite running cycling even begin to match their
> performance?



Retard -


They're not analogous.

NASCAR is a privately owned entity (the France family). They own the
league and the races. There are only a handful of team owners. It's an
oligarchy. Very easy to get everyone on the same page.

Cycling is a mishmash. It's chaotic. Too many competing interests.
It's sorta like Congress. Congress will never get it together. Bike
racing may never get it together.

Too many competing interests. Too much bureaucracy. Too much ego.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

[[email protected]]

On Feb 29, 10:18*pm, Bill C wrote:

> *Nascar has done exactly that and they are unsophisticated hicks
> according to lots of people around here. Why can't the sophisticated,
> educated, oh so elite running cycling even begin to match their
> performance? Maybe because the Nascar folks had no illusions about
> what they are running, except in the last two, or three years where
> they have been too full of themselves too and losing ratings,
> sponsors, teams, and money.

"Too full" exemplified by a new, very hard-line approach to "rules
infractions", especially IRT the COT (car of tomorrow/today, the new
one with the wing on it). --D-y

[Fred Fredburger[_3_]]

Donald Munro wrote:
> Fred Fredburger wrote:
>> Or pain killers. Probably the most famous example of that was Brett
>> Favre's addiction to pain killers.
>
> Is Brett Favre a right wing talk show host ?
>

No, you're probably thinking of Steve McNair.
http://tinyurl.com/2c6t5h

[[email protected]]

On Mar 1, 8:44*am, Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:
> On Feb 29, 8:18*pm, Bill C > wrote:
>
> > *These idiots aren't even decent hack politicians, let alone competent
> > to run a business that processes into the hundred million dollars
> > area. Instead of fighting ASO they should be helping the event
> > organizers, teams, and competitors to grow their sport and monetary
> > position.
> > *Nascar has done exactly that and they are unsophisticated hicks
> > according to lots of people around here. Why can't the sophisticated,
> > educated, oh so elite running cycling even begin to match their
> > performance?
>
> Retard -
>
> They're not analogous.

Are retard and dumbass analogous?

> NASCAR is a privately owned entity (the France family). They own the
> league and the races. There are only a handful of team owners. It's an
> oligarchy. Very easy to get everyone on the same page.
>
> Cycling is a mishmash. It's chaotic. Too many competing interests.
> It's sorta like Congress. Congress will never get it together. Bike
> racing may never get it together.
>
> Too many competing interests. Too much bureaucracy. Too much ego.

That's a nice list of problems. I disagree that those problems make it
impossible to govern the sport effectively, especially when it comes
to self-policing doping. --D-y

[Bill C]

On Mar 1, 9:44*am, Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:
> On Feb 29, 8:18*pm, Bill C > wrote:
>
> > *These idiots aren't even decent hack politicians, let alone competent
> > to run a business that processes into the hundred million dollars
> > area. Instead of fighting ASO they should be helping the event
> > organizers, teams, and competitors to grow their sport and monetary
> > position.
> > *Nascar has done exactly that and they are unsophisticated hicks
> > according to lots of people around here. Why can't the sophisticated,
> > educated, oh so elite running cycling even begin to match their
> > performance?
>
> Retard -
>
> They're not analogous.
>
> NASCAR is a privately owned entity (the France family). They own the
> league and the races. There are only a handful of team owners. It's an
> oligarchy. Very easy to get everyone on the same page.
>
> Cycling is a mishmash. It's chaotic. Too many competing interests.
> It's sorta like Congress. Congress will never get it together. Bike
> racing may never get it together.
>
> Too many competing interests. Too much bureaucracy. Too much ego.
>
> thanks,
>
> K. Gringioni.

Not totally analagous, but the next closest thing in sports.
Let's run through it:

Nascar/UCI -sanctioning body

Sports driven by sponsorship, advertising, stars, and rivalries.

Totally independent teams, sometimes competing against the
sanctioning body for sponsor dollars etc...

Individually owned tracks, and three "groups" including the France
family owning several tracks each.

competing sponsorship deals at the individual, team, and "league"
level.

Drivers with no union

Not all racers, or teams, get into all, or even most races. You have
to race your way in, or on past performance.

The huge difference is that even though Bill France Sr. showed up with
a gun to stop a unionization meeting everyone has significant input,
and they've worked to benefit each other and the sport as a whole.
Nascar has ALWAYS been aware of who generates the money, and has
taken care not to fracture the teams, drivers, and sport. They've all
worked together to make more money, expand the sport, and put on the
best possible show, and protected each other in public, and from
outsiders.
The last couple years Nascar has tried to move the sport more
"corporate" and that's really hurt them. They muzzled the drivers,
levied massive fines and point penalties for words, and actions the
fans expected. They killed the natural rivalries off.
This year they are supposedly going to back off, and have some, but
then issued another huge, stupid penalty that everyone sees as unfair
to Robby Gordon.
The thing that helps is that the "legends" of the sport criticize
Nascar when they are off course, and have the standing to get Nascar
to compromise. That helps keep things going in a positive direction.
Lots of people are NOT happy with Bill France Jr. though right now,
but their bad days are cyclings good days on an organizational level
though.
I guess the big difference is that everyone in Nascar wants to, and
realizes that as long as they are making moeny the sport is growing,
so they work together in that direction instead of spouting about the
evils of commerce.
Some differences, lots of similarities.
Bill C

[Bill C]

On Mar 1, 1:03*pm, " > wrote:

>
>(kurgan) > Too many competing interests. Too much bureaucracy. Too much ego..
>
> That's a nice list of problems. I disagree that those problems make it
> impossible to govern the sport effectively, especially when it comes
> to self-policing doping. *--D-y

Dy I agree they could handle all of this internally if everyone had
the same image of what success is. Seems the UCI is wrapped up in some
Olympic/amateur ideal pipe dream that never existed anywhere, anytime,
as opposed to functioning to protect, and grow the product. Instead
they drag it, and the products into the mud.
Not a peep about the FIFA folks in Puerto, and lord knows FIFA has
had a ton of black eyes with violence and racism, yet they protect and
defend the sport, and those are all just blips in the end.
They're a little more pragmatic and realistic.
Cycling could, and would do the same without the UCI as currently run
except the UCI would rather kill the baby than allow it freedom.
Bill C

[Michael Baldwin]

>The Grunge says;
>
>Are retard and dumbass analogous?
>NASCAR is a privately owned entity (the France family). They
>own the league and the races. There are only a
>handful of team owners. It's an oligarchy. Very easy to
>get everyone on the same page.
>Cycling is a mishmash. It's chaotic. Too many competing interests.
>It's sorta like Congress. Congress will never get it together.
>Bike racing may never get it together.
>Too many competing interests. Too much bureaucracy. Too much ego.
>
>Then D-y countered;
>
>That's a nice list of problems. I disagree that those
>problems make it impossible to govern the sport effectively, especially
>when it comes to self-policing doping. --D-y

Exactly D-y. I don't think the so-called problems in pro cycling are as
insurmountable as some make them out to be.

Drop the drugs, doping, and drama and let's go racing.

There are plenty of viable and profitable examples as to how racing can
be organized.


Best Regards - Mike Baldwin

[Kurgan Gringioni]

On Mar 1, 10:33*am, Bill C > wrote:
> On Mar 1, 9:44*am, Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 29, 8:18*pm, Bill C > wrote:
>
> > > *These idiots aren't even decent hack politicians, let alone competent
> > > to run a business that processes into the hundred million dollars
> > > area. Instead of fighting ASO they should be helping the event
> > > organizers, teams, and competitors to grow their sport and monetary
> > > position.
> > > *Nascar has done exactly that and they are unsophisticated hicks
> > > according to lots of people around here. Why can't the sophisticated,
> > > educated, oh so elite running cycling even begin to match their
> > > performance?
>
> > Retard -
>
> > They're not analogous.
>
> > NASCAR is a privately owned entity (the France family). They own the
> > league and the races. There are only a handful of team owners. It's an
> > oligarchy. Very easy to get everyone on the same page.
>
> > Cycling is a mishmash. It's chaotic. Too many competing interests.
> > It's sorta like Congress. Congress will never get it together. Bike
> > racing may never get it together.
>
> > Too many competing interests. Too much bureaucracy. Too much ego.
>
> > thanks,
>
> > K. Gringioni.
>
> Not totally analagous, but the next closest thing in sports.
> *Let's run through it:
>
> *Nascar/UCI -sanctioning body
>
> *Sports driven by sponsorship, advertising, stars, and rivalries.
>
> *Totally independent teams, sometimes competing against the
> sanctioning body for sponsor dollars etc...
>
> *Individually owned tracks, and three "groups" including the France
> family owning several tracks each.
>
> *competing sponsorship deals at the individual, team, and "league"
> level.
>
> *Drivers with no union
>
> Not all racers, or teams, get into all, or even most races. You have
> to race your way in, or on past performance.
>
> The huge difference is that even though Bill France Sr. showed up with
> a gun to stop a unionization meeting everyone has significant input,
> and they've worked to benefit each other and the sport as a whole.
> *Nascar has ALWAYS been aware of who generates the money, and has
> taken care not to fracture the teams, drivers, and sport. They've all
> worked together to make more money, expand the sport, and put on the
> best possible show, and protected each other in public, and from
> outsiders.
> *The last couple years Nascar has tried to move the sport more
> "corporate" and that's really hurt them. They muzzled the drivers,
> levied massive fines and point penalties for words, and actions the
> fans expected. They killed the natural rivalries off.
> *This year they are supposedly going to back off, and have some, but
> then issued another huge, stupid penalty that everyone sees as unfair
> to Robby Gordon.
> *The thing that helps is that the "legends" of the sport criticize
> Nascar when they are off course, and have the standing to get Nascar
> to compromise. That helps keep things going in a positive direction.
> *Lots of people are NOT happy with Bill France Jr. though right now,
> but their bad days are cyclings good days on an organizational level
> though.
> *I guess the big difference is that everyone in Nascar wants to, and
> realizes that as long as they are making moeny the sport is growing,
> so they work together in that direction instead of spouting about the
> evils of commerce.
> *Some differences, lots of similarities.




Dumbass -


Your analysis is flawed because it ignores cycling's biggest problems
which have no analogue in NASCAR.

Those are:

1) WADA
2) ASO vs. UCI

There are no outside entities like WADA (which has its own agenda)
that control perhaps the most important aspect of the sport's image.

NASCAR's biggest race isn't at odds w/ the rulemaking body. Moreover,
NASCAR's biggest race (Daytona) doesn't have the outsize importance in
the sport that the TdF does in cycling. Even if Daytona were owned by
a separate entity, it wouldn't have the levarage over NASCAR that the
ASO does over the UCI.

The ASO generates way more revenue and sponsors than the UCI does. Not
true in NASCAR. Sprint Cup and all the official sponsors of NASCAR
direct their money to NASCAR, even if Daytona were independent and
decided to follow the ASO route. In cycling, all the sponsorship money
from the Tour de France goes to the ASO.

That's a huge, and very significant difference. Because it's always
about money. If you can explain the money trail, then it explains
everything else.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

[[email protected]]

On Mar 1, 1:59 pm, Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:
> On Mar 1, 10:33 am, Bill C > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 1, 9:44 am, Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 29, 8:18 pm, Bill C > wrote:
>
> > > > These idiots aren't even decent hack politicians, let alone competent
> > > > to run a business that processes into the hundred million dollars
> > > > area. Instead of fighting ASO they should be helping the event
> > > > organizers, teams, and competitors to grow their sport and monetary
> > > > position.
> > > > Nascar has done exactly that and they are unsophisticated hicks
> > > > according to lots of people around here. Why can't the sophisticated,
> > > > educated, oh so elite running cycling even begin to match their
> > > > performance?
>
> > > Retard -
>
> > > They're not analogous.
>
> > > NASCAR is a privately owned entity (the France family). They own the
> > > league and the races. There are only a handful of team owners. It's an
> > > oligarchy. Very easy to get everyone on the same page.
>
> > > Cycling is a mishmash. It's chaotic. Too many competing interests.
> > > It's sorta like Congress. Congress will never get it together. Bike
> > > racing may never get it together.
>
> > > Too many competing interests. Too much bureaucracy. Too much ego.
>
> > > thanks,
>
> > > K. Gringioni.
>
> > Not totally analagous, but the next closest thing in sports.
> > Let's run through it:
>
> > Nascar/UCI -sanctioning body
>
> > Sports driven by sponsorship, advertising, stars, and rivalries.
>
> > Totally independent teams, sometimes competing against the
> > sanctioning body for sponsor dollars etc...
>
> > Individually owned tracks, and three "groups" including the France
> > family owning several tracks each.
>
> > competing sponsorship deals at the individual, team, and "league"
> > level.
>
> > Drivers with no union
>
> > Not all racers, or teams, get into all, or even most races. You have
> > to race your way in, or on past performance.
>
> > The huge difference is that even though Bill France Sr. showed up with
> > a gun to stop a unionization meeting everyone has significant input,
> > and they've worked to benefit each other and the sport as a whole.
> > Nascar has ALWAYS been aware of who generates the money, and has
> > taken care not to fracture the teams, drivers, and sport. They've all
> > worked together to make more money, expand the sport, and put on the
> > best possible show, and protected each other in public, and from
> > outsiders.
> > The last couple years Nascar has tried to move the sport more
> > "corporate" and that's really hurt them. They muzzled the drivers,
> > levied massive fines and point penalties for words, and actions the
> > fans expected. They killed the natural rivalries off.
> > This year they are supposedly going to back off, and have some, but
> > then issued another huge, stupid penalty that everyone sees as unfair
> > to Robby Gordon.
> > The thing that helps is that the "legends" of the sport criticize
> > Nascar when they are off course, and have the standing to get Nascar
> > to compromise. That helps keep things going in a positive direction.
> > Lots of people are NOT happy with Bill France Jr. though right now,
> > but their bad days are cyclings good days on an organizational level
> > though.
> > I guess the big difference is that everyone in Nascar wants to, and
> > realizes that as long as they are making moeny the sport is growing,
> > so they work together in that direction instead of spouting about the
> > evils of commerce.
> > Some differences, lots of similarities.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> Your analysis is flawed because it ignores cycling's biggest problems
> which have no analogue in NASCAR.
>
> Those are:
>
> 1) WADA
> 2) ASO vs. UCI
>

dumbass,

what i meant was that cycling can be analogous to NASCAR and other
"pro" leagues and the people who have been in the position to do it
for the last 10 years has been the ASO since they already organize
several of the most important races on the calendar.

they could take over most of the other big pro races using the money
raised by selling franchises to teams that would race in the resulting
league.

[Kurgan Gringioni]

On Mar 1, 11:07*am, " >
wrote:

>
> what i meant was that cycling can be analogous to NASCAR and other
> "pro" leagues and the people who have been in the position to do it
> for the last 10 years has been the ASO since they already organize
> several of the most important races on the calendar.



Dumbass -


Oh, I see.

That means getting rid of the UCI.

Which may not be a bad idea.

The sport does need to get its **** together and may be a good start.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

[Donald Munro]

Bill C wrote:
> Not a peep about the FIFA folks in Puerto, and lord knows FIFA has
> had a ton of black eyes with violence and racism, yet they protect and
> defend the sport, and those are all just blips in the end.
> They're a little more pragmatic and realistic. Cycling could, and would
> do the same without the UCI as currently run
> except the UCI would rather kill the baby than allow it freedom.

Wet Bladder seems to have ****ed up now though:
http://football.guardian.co.uk/breakingnews/feedstory/0,,-7346983,00.html

[Bill C]

On Mar 1, 1:59*pm, Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:
> On Mar 1, 10:33*am, Bill C > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 1, 9:44*am, Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 29, 8:18*pm, Bill C > wrote:
>
> > > > *These idiots aren't even decent hack politicians, let alone competent
> > > > to run a business that processes into the hundred million dollars
> > > > area. Instead of fighting ASO they should be helping the event
> > > > organizers, teams, and competitors to grow their sport and monetary
> > > > position.
> > > > *Nascar has done exactly that and they are unsophisticated hicks
> > > > according to lots of people around here. Why can't the sophisticated,
> > > > educated, oh so elite running cycling even begin to match their
> > > > performance?
>
> > > Retard -
>
> > > They're not analogous.
>
> > > NASCAR is a privately owned entity (the France family). They own the
> > > league and the races. There are only a handful of team owners. It's an
> > > oligarchy. Very easy to get everyone on the same page.
>
> > > Cycling is a mishmash. It's chaotic. Too many competing interests.
> > > It's sorta like Congress. Congress will never get it together. Bike
> > > racing may never get it together.
>
> > > Too many competing interests. Too much bureaucracy. Too much ego.
>
> > > thanks,
>
> > > K. Gringioni.
>
> > Not totally analagous, but the next closest thing in sports.
> > *Let's run through it:
>
> > *Nascar/UCI -sanctioning body
>
> > *Sports driven by sponsorship, advertising, stars, and rivalries.
>
> > *Totally independent teams, sometimes competing against the
> > sanctioning body for sponsor dollars etc...
>
> > *Individually owned tracks, and three "groups" including the France
> > family owning several tracks each.
>
> > *competing sponsorship deals at the individual, team, and "league"
> > level.
>
> > *Drivers with no union
>
> > Not all racers, or teams, get into all, or even most races. You have
> > to race your way in, or on past performance.
>
> > The huge difference is that even though Bill France Sr. showed up with
> > a gun to stop a unionization meeting everyone has significant input,
> > and they've worked to benefit each other and the sport as a whole.
> > *Nascar has ALWAYS been aware of who generates the money, and has
> > taken care not to fracture the teams, drivers, and sport. They've all
> > worked together to make more money, expand the sport, and put on the
> > best possible show, and protected each other in public, and from
> > outsiders.
> > *The last couple years Nascar has tried to move the sport more
> > "corporate" and that's really hurt them. They muzzled the drivers,
> > levied massive fines and point penalties for words, and actions the
> > fans expected. They killed the natural rivalries off.
> > *This year they are supposedly going to back off, and have some, but
> > then issued another huge, stupid penalty that everyone sees as unfair
> > to Robby Gordon.
> > *The thing that helps is that the "legends" of the sport criticize
> > Nascar when they are off course, and have the standing to get Nascar
> > to compromise. That helps keep things going in a positive direction.
> > *Lots of people are NOT happy with Bill France Jr. though right now,
> > but their bad days are cyclings good days on an organizational level
> > though.
> > *I guess the big difference is that everyone in Nascar wants to, and
> > realizes that as long as they are making moeny the sport is growing,
> > so they work together in that direction instead of spouting about the
> > evils of commerce.
> > *Some differences, lots of similarities.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> Your analysis is flawed because it ignores cycling's biggest problems
> which have no analogue in NASCAR.
>
> Those are:
>
> 1) WADA
> 2) ASO vs. UCI
>
> There are no outside entities like WADA (which has its own agenda)
> that control perhaps the most important aspect of the sport's image.
>
> NASCAR's biggest race isn't at odds w/ the rulemaking body. Moreover,
> NASCAR's biggest race (Daytona) doesn't have the outsize importance in
> the sport that the TdF does in cycling. Even if Daytona were owned by
> a separate entity, it wouldn't have the levarage over NASCAR that the
> ASO does over the UCI.
>
> The ASO generates way more revenue and sponsors than the UCI does. Not
> true in NASCAR. Sprint Cup and all the official sponsors of NASCAR
> direct their money to NASCAR, even if Daytona were independent and
> decided to follow the ASO route. In cycling, all the sponsorship money
> from the Tour de France goes to the ASO.
>
> That's a huge, and very significant difference. Because it's always
> about money. If you can explain the money trail, then it explains
> everything else.
>
> thanks,
>
> K. Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Simple. ASO gets together with the teams and riders, and says "We are
a PRO sport now! Screw off. to both the UCI, who would go the way of
the AAU, and Wada and set up their own gig and anti-doping program.
FIFA has handled this pretty smoothly. Other Pro sports send athletes
to the Olympics without the ass kissing and suicidal garbage, why not
cycling? Other than as a publicity stunt, why dothe Olympics matter to
successful Pro leagues anyway? I'd say they really don't. The UCI is a
huge roadblock to success and cycling will eventually realize that.
The promoters, riders, and teams have ALL the assets except the
politicians.
Bill C

[Kurgan Gringioni]

On Mar 1, 11:39*am, Bill C > wrote:
>
> Simple. ASO gets together with the teams and riders, and says "We are
> a PRO sport now! Screw off. to both the UCI, who would go the way of
> the AAU, and Wada and set up their own gig and anti-doping program.
> FIFA has handled this pretty smoothly. Other Pro sports send athletes
> to the Olympics without the ass kissing and suicidal garbage, why not
> cycling? Other than as a publicity stunt, why dothe Olympics matter to
> successful Pro leagues anyway? I'd say they really don't. The UCI is a
> huge roadblock to success and cycling will eventually realize that.
> *The promoters, riders, and teams have ALL the assets except the
> politicians.



Dumbass -


You're leaving out WADA.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

[Casey Kerrigan]

In article
>,
Bill C > wrote:

> On Mar 1, 9:44*am, Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:
> > On Feb 29, 8:18*pm, Bill C > wrote:
> >
> > > *These idiots aren't even decent hack politicians, let alone competent
> > > to run a business that processes into the hundred million dollars
> > > area. Instead of fighting ASO they should be helping the event
> > > organizers, teams, and competitors to grow their sport and monetary
> > > position.
> > > *Nascar has done exactly that and they are unsophisticated hicks
> > > according to lots of people around here. Why can't the sophisticated,
> > > educated, oh so elite running cycling even begin to match their
> > > performance?
> >
> > Retard -
> >
> > They're not analogous.
> >
> > NASCAR is a privately owned entity (the France family). They own the
> > league and the races. There are only a handful of team owners. It's an
> > oligarchy. Very easy to get everyone on the same page.
> >
> > Cycling is a mishmash. It's chaotic. Too many competing interests.
> > It's sorta like Congress. Congress will never get it together. Bike
> > racing may never get it together.
> >
> > Too many competing interests. Too much bureaucracy. Too much ego.
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > K. Gringioni.
>
> Not totally analagous, but the next closest thing in sports.
> Let's run through it:
>
> Nascar/UCI -sanctioning body
>
> Sports driven by sponsorship, advertising, stars, and rivalries.
>
> Totally independent teams, sometimes competing against the
> sanctioning body for sponsor dollars etc...
>
> Individually owned tracks, and three "groups" including the France
> family owning several tracks each.
>
> competing sponsorship deals at the individual, team, and "league"
> level.
>
> Drivers with no union
>
> Not all racers, or teams, get into all, or even most races. You have
> to race your way in, or on past performance.
>
Actually NASCAR does set it up so that the top teams do get into every
race. At the start of the season the top 35 teams from the previous
year are assured of getting into the first 5 races. After the first 5
races the top 35 teams from the current year's standings are assured a
place in the next race. In addition to the top 35 ranked teams the most
current past Cup champion who isn't in the top 35 can get a provisional
start ( up to 6 times in a year) to get into a race they don't
otherwise qualify for.

NASCAR knows that the fans want to see the top drivers every week so if
you are in the top 35 divers you are assured of getting into the race
even if you crash in qualifying or otherwise don't post a qualifying
time. For the top 35 teams the weekly qualifying isn't about getting
into the race it is about getting a good starting position and getting
a better choice of pit stall ( kind of like getting your team a better
position in the race caravan).

[Bill C]

On Mar 1, 2:47*pm, Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:
> On Mar 1, 11:39*am, Bill C > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Simple. ASO gets together with the teams and riders, and says "We are
> > a PRO sport now! Screw off. to both the UCI, who would go the way of
> > the AAU, and Wada and set up their own gig and anti-doping program.
> > FIFA has handled this pretty smoothly. Other Pro sports send athletes
> > to the Olympics without the ass kissing and suicidal garbage, why not
> > cycling? Other than as a publicity stunt, why dothe Olympics matter to
> > successful Pro leagues anyway? I'd say they really don't. The UCI is a
> > huge roadblock to success and cycling will eventually realize that.
> > *The promoters, riders, and teams have ALL the assets except the
> > politicians.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> You're leaving out WADA.
>
> thanks,
>
> K. Gringioni.

It looks like ASO is using AFLD as a buffer right now. Every other
sport seems to have been much more successful negotiating deals with
them. If cycling actually went Pro, I'm not sure what authority, if
any Wada would actually have. Maybe Sandy could tell us. US pro sports
are smart enough to keep away from Wada, despite politicians
posturing. I'm not sure if that would be possible in Europe.
Bill C

[[email protected]]

On Mar 1, 3:41 pm, Bill C > wrote:
> On Mar 1, 2:47 pm, Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 1, 11:39 am, Bill C > wrote:
>
> > > Simple. ASO gets together with the teams and riders, and says "We are
> > > a PRO sport now! Screw off. to both the UCI, who would go the way of
> > > the AAU, and Wada and set up their own gig and anti-doping program.
> > > FIFA has handled this pretty smoothly. Other Pro sports send athletes
> > > to the Olympics without the ass kissing and suicidal garbage, why not
> > > cycling? Other than as a publicity stunt, why dothe Olympics matter to
> > > successful Pro leagues anyway? I'd say they really don't. The UCI is a
> > > huge roadblock to success and cycling will eventually realize that.
> > > The promoters, riders, and teams have ALL the assets except the
> > > politicians.
>
> > Dumbass -
>
> > You're leaving out WADA.
>
> > thanks,
>
> > K. Gringioni.
>
> It looks like ASO is using AFLD as a buffer right now. Every other
> sport seems to have been much more successful negotiating deals with
> them. If cycling actually went Pro, I'm not sure what authority, if
> any Wada would actually have. Maybe Sandy could tell us. US pro sports
> are smart enough to keep away from Wada, despite politicians
> posturing. I'm not sure if that would be possible in Europe.
> Bill C

dumbass,

WADA is an arm of the IOC. You only need to comply with WADA if you
want the athletes to be eligible for the Olympics.

this problem has been solved for the NBA and NHL, so I don't see why
it has to be any different for cycling.

[Bill C]

On Mar 1, 3:27*pm, Casey Kerrigan > wrote:

>
> Actually NASCAR does set it up so that the top teams do get into every
> race. At the start of the season the top 35 teams from the previous
> year are assured of getting into the first 5 races. After the first 5
> races the top 35 teams from the current year's standings are assured a
> place in the next race. In addition to the top 35 ranked teams the most
> current past Cup champion who isn't in the top 35 can get a provisional
> start ( up to 6 times in a year) to get into a race they don't
> otherwise qualify for.
>
> NASCAR knows that the fans want to see the top drivers every week so if
> you are in the top 35 divers you are assured of getting into the race
> even if you crash in qualifying or otherwise don't post a qualifying
> time. For the top 35 teams the weekly qualifying isn't about getting
> into the race it is about getting a good starting position and getting
> a better choice of pit stall ( kind of like getting your team a better
> position in the race caravan).- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I wasn't sure of the details but I remembered that being guaranteed
into events was performance based. The difficulty with applying that
model would seem to be the limited number of entry slots for teams in
cycling. Europe is used to yearly relegation in soccer. I vaguely
remember that being brought into the PT discussion, but I seem to
remember the teams being protected for years, not on an annual basis.
That would seem to be something that would give some stability, but
also allow for competition, and throw in a couple of discretionary
invites for the promoters. Golf does sponsors exemptions so they get
the players they need in.
Like other people have said there are systems that are working pretty
well out there that could be adapted. The current one is leading us to
the basement with the NHL though.
Bill C

[[email protected]]

On Mar 1, 4:07 pm, Bill C > wrote:

> Like other people have said there are systems that are working pretty
> well out there that could be adapted. The current one is leading us to
> the basement with the NHL though.

dumbass,

adopting a more "pro league" format is no guarantee for success, but
for cycling it will probably be better than the current situation.

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article
>,
Bill C > wrote:

> On Mar 1, 3:27*pm, Casey Kerrigan > wrote:
>
> >
> > Actually NASCAR does set it up so that the top teams do get into every
> > race. At the start of the season the top 35 teams from the previous
> > year are assured of getting into the first 5 races. After the first 5
> > races the top 35 teams from the current year's standings are assured a
> > place in the next race. In addition to the top 35 ranked teams the most
> > current past Cup champion who isn't in the top 35 can get a provisional
> > start ( up to 6 times in a year) to get into a race they don't
> > otherwise qualify for.
> >
> > NASCAR knows that the fans want to see the top drivers every week so if
> > you are in the top 35 divers you are assured of getting into the race
> > even if you crash in qualifying or otherwise don't post a qualifying
> > time. For the top 35 teams the weekly qualifying isn't about getting
> > into the race it is about getting a good starting position and getting
> > a better choice of pit stall ( kind of like getting your team a better
> > position in the race caravan).- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I wasn't sure of the details but I remembered that being guaranteed
> into events was performance based. The difficulty with applying that
> model would seem to be the limited number of entry slots for teams in
> cycling. Europe is used to yearly relegation in soccer. I vaguely
> remember that being brought into the PT discussion, but I seem to
> remember the teams being protected for years, not on an annual basis.
> That would seem to be something that would give some stability, but
> also allow for competition, and throw in a couple of discretionary
> invites for the promoters. Golf does sponsors exemptions so they get
> the players they need in.
> Like other people have said there are systems that are working pretty
> well out there that could be adapted. The current one is leading us to
> the basement with the NHL though.
> Bill C

The difference is that the NHL (via ticket revenues and a small set of
very prosperous franchises in cities with rabidly loyal fan bases) has a
stable, sensible financial basis and isn't likely to experience any sort
of, well, NASL-style atomic collapse.

Pretty much the worst case for the NHL right now would be that they
might implode so badly as to lose most of the sunbelt franchises and
maybe Chicago if the management in that city doesn't get their act
together, followed by a financial eclipse by the Russian leagues.

I consider that an extraordinarily unlikely scenario.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[Kurgan Gringioni]

On Mar 1, 7:35*pm, Ryan Cousineau > wrote:
>
> Pretty much the worst case for the NHL right now would be that they
> might implode so badly as to lose most of the sunbelt franchises and
> maybe Chicago if the management in that city doesn't get their act
> together, followed by a financial eclipse by the Russian leagues.
>
> I consider that an extraordinarily unlikely scenario.



Dumbass -


Russia's economy is too small and oil-export dependent for that to
happen in the next generation.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article
>,
Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:

> On Mar 1, 7:35*pm, Ryan Cousineau > wrote:
> >
> > Pretty much the worst case for the NHL right now would be that they
> > might implode so badly as to lose most of the sunbelt franchises and
> > maybe Chicago if the management in that city doesn't get their act
> > together, followed by a financial eclipse by the Russian leagues.
> >
> > I consider that an extraordinarily unlikely scenario.
>
>
>
> Dumbass -
>
>
> Russia's economy is too small and oil-export dependent for that to
> happen in the next generation.

Thus the "extraordiarily unlikely" caveat. But the Russian pro league
seems to be the second-best pro league on the planet. Well, maybe the
IHL.

Already, there are a few Russian players good enough to play in the NHL
who have opted to be stars of the Russian league instead.

I don't see it as likely, but ask yourself: if the NBA collapsed, where
would the players play?

(A: probably Greece)

If the UCI, ASO, or whatever the rider's union is called were to
collapse, where would the riders ride?

(A: nobody would notice the collapse of any of those organizations
except the ASO, and that only for as long as it took to get a new Tour
going)

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[[email protected]]

(Just taking walk-up number 38, here):

So, we're all agreed that WADA is a nasty form of cancer? --D-y

[[email protected]]

On Mar 2, 12:23 am, Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:
> On Mar 1, 7:35 pm, Ryan Cousineau > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Pretty much the worst case for the NHL right now would be that they
> > might implode so badly as to lose most of the sunbelt franchises and
> > maybe Chicago if the management in that city doesn't get their act
> > together, followed by a financial eclipse by the Russian leagues.
>
> > I consider that an extraordinarily unlikely scenario.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> Russia's economy is too small and oil-export dependent for that to
> happen in the next generation.
>
> thanks,
>
> K. Gringioni.

dumbass,

the russian economy doesn't have to be huge or super rich to support a
league that can compete with the NHL for stars.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/29/sports/hockey/29hockey.html?em&ex=1204520400&en=e5aeb87c5cbb7f51&ei=5087%0A

[Bill C]

On Mar 1, 10:35*pm, Ryan Cousineau > wrote:
> In article
> >,
> *Bill C > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 1, 3:27*pm, Casey Kerrigan > wrote:
>
> > > Actually NASCAR does set it up so that the top teams do get into every
> > > race. At the start of the season the top 35 teams from the previous
> > > year are assured of getting into the first 5 races. After the first 5
> > > races the top 35 teams from the current year's standings are assured a
> > > place in the next race. In addition to the top 35 ranked teams the most
> > > current past Cup champion who isn't in the top 35 can get a provisional
> > > start ( up to 6 times in a year) to get into a race they don't
> > > otherwise qualify for.
>
> > > NASCAR knows that the fans want to see the top drivers every week so if
> > > you are in the top 35 divers you are assured of getting into the race
> > > even if you crash in qualifying or otherwise don't post a qualifying
> > > time. For the top 35 teams the weekly qualifying isn't about getting
> > > into the race it is about getting a good starting position and getting
> > > a better choice of pit stall ( kind of like getting your team a better
> > > position in the race caravan).- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I wasn't sure of the details but I remembered that being guaranteed
> > into events was performance based. The difficulty with applying that
> > model would seem to be the limited number of entry slots for teams in
> > cycling. Europe is used to yearly relegation in soccer. I vaguely
> > remember that being brought into the PT discussion, but I seem to
> > remember the teams being protected for years, not on an annual basis.
> > That would seem to be something that would give some stability, but
> > also allow for competition, and throw in a couple of discretionary
> > invites for the promoters. Golf does sponsors exemptions so they get
> > the players they need in.
> > *Like other people have said there are systems that are working pretty
> > well out there that could be adapted. The current one is leading us to
> > the basement with the NHL though.
> > *Bill C
>
> The difference is that the NHL (via ticket revenues and a small set of
> very prosperous franchises in cities with rabidly loyal fan bases) has a
> stable, sensible financial basis and isn't likely to experience any sort
> of, well, NASL-style atomic collapse.
>
> Pretty much the worst case for the NHL right now would be that they
> might implode so badly as to lose most of the sunbelt franchises and
> maybe Chicago if the management in that city doesn't get their act
> together, followed by a financial eclipse by the Russian leagues.
>
> I consider that an extraordinarily unlikely scenario.
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau /
> "In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
> "In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

You don't consider the fall they've already had to be an implosion?
We've got the Bruins here, and hockey has still dropped off the map
except for the Beanpot Tournament. The B's are actually 11 games over .
500 and you'd never know it because noone cares anymore. That's partly
ownership's fault, when Bourque had to leave to win, and they helped
him do it, said everything about them, but the sport has disappeared
here now.
The "lunchpail brigade" used to be rabid haockey fans, and they still
sell about 8000 season tickets to those folks, but the vast majority
that cared are long gone. Esposito and Orr aren't coming back, and
noone would care if they did.
Hockey's leadership and team owners led them right into this mess,
and it seems to me that's what's happening in cycling too.
Bill C

[[email protected]]

On Mar 2, 11:13 am, Bill C > wrote:
> On Mar 1, 10:35 pm, Ryan Cousineau > wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article
> > >,
> > Bill C > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 1, 3:27 pm, Casey Kerrigan > wrote:
>
> > > > Actually NASCAR does set it up so that the top teams do get into every
> > > > race. At the start of the season the top 35 teams from the previous
> > > > year are assured of getting into the first 5 races. After the first 5
> > > > races the top 35 teams from the current year's standings are assured a
> > > > place in the next race. In addition to the top 35 ranked teams the most
> > > > current past Cup champion who isn't in the top 35 can get a provisional
> > > > start ( up to 6 times in a year) to get into a race they don't
> > > > otherwise qualify for.
>
> > > > NASCAR knows that the fans want to see the top drivers every week so if
> > > > you are in the top 35 divers you are assured of getting into the race
> > > > even if you crash in qualifying or otherwise don't post a qualifying
> > > > time. For the top 35 teams the weekly qualifying isn't about getting
> > > > into the race it is about getting a good starting position and getting
> > > > a better choice of pit stall ( kind of like getting your team a better
> > > > position in the race caravan).- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > I wasn't sure of the details but I remembered that being guaranteed
> > > into events was performance based. The difficulty with applying that
> > > model would seem to be the limited number of entry slots for teams in
> > > cycling. Europe is used to yearly relegation in soccer. I vaguely
> > > remember that being brought into the PT discussion, but I seem to
> > > remember the teams being protected for years, not on an annual basis.
> > > That would seem to be something that would give some stability, but
> > > also allow for competition, and throw in a couple of discretionary
> > > invites for the promoters. Golf does sponsors exemptions so they get
> > > the players they need in.
> > > Like other people have said there are systems that are working pretty
> > > well out there that could be adapted. The current one is leading us to
> > > the basement with the NHL though.
> > > Bill C
>
> > The difference is that the NHL (via ticket revenues and a small set of
> > very prosperous franchises in cities with rabidly loyal fan bases) has a
> > stable, sensible financial basis and isn't likely to experience any sort
> > of, well, NASL-style atomic collapse.
>
> > Pretty much the worst case for the NHL right now would be that they
> > might implode so badly as to lose most of the sunbelt franchises and
> > maybe Chicago if the management in that city doesn't get their act
> > together, followed by a financial eclipse by the Russian leagues.
>
> > I consider that an extraordinarily unlikely scenario.
>
> > --
> > Ryan Cousineau /
> > "In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
> > "In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> You don't consider the fall they've already had to be an implosion?
> We've got the Bruins here, and hockey has still dropped off the map
> except for the Beanpot Tournament. The B's are actually 11 games over .
> 500 and you'd never know it because noone cares anymore. That's partly
> ownership's fault, when Bourque had to leave to win, and they helped
> him do it, said everything about them, but the sport has disappeared
> here now.
> The "lunchpail brigade" used to be rabid haockey fans, and they still
> sell about 8000 season tickets to those folks, but the vast majority
> that cared are long gone. Esposito and Orr aren't coming back, and
> noone would care if they did.
> Hockey's leadership and team owners led them right into this mess,
> and it seems to me that's what's happening in cycling too.
> Bill C

dumbass,

it's naive to attribute the decline of hockey to the actions of one
management or one player.

what diluted hockey was the expansion in the 90s to non-hokey markets
and the expansion of the calendar, which meant a decline in the
importance of each game (the season last from oct.-june) and each
team.

in boston specifically you have championship-quality teams in the
three major pro leagues right now, so it is a tough market for the
bruins.

[[email protected]]

On Mar 2, 11:27 am, " >
wrote:

> what diluted hockey was the expansion in the 90s to non-hokey markets
> and the expansion of the calendar, which meant a decline in the
> importance of each game (the season last from oct.-june) and each
> team.

also, people like it when there were more fights.

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article
>,
" > wrote:

> On Mar 2, 11:27 am, " >
> wrote:
>
> > what diluted hockey was the expansion in the 90s to non-hokey markets
> > and the expansion of the calendar, which meant a decline in the
> > importance of each game (the season last from oct.-june) and each
> > team.
>
> also, people like it when there were more fights.

I'm not watching again until they implement the "no penalties, no time
limits, and no substitutions" rules pioneered in the Rollerball leagues.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[Kurgan Gringioni]

On Mar 2, 6:57*am, " >
wrote:
> On Mar 2, 12:23 am, Kurgan Gringioni > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 1, 7:35 pm, Ryan Cousineau > wrote:
>
> > > Pretty much the worst case for the NHL right now would be that they
> > > might implode so badly as to lose most of the sunbelt franchises and
> > > maybe Chicago if the management in that city doesn't get their act
> > > together, followed by a financial eclipse by the Russian leagues.
>
> > > I consider that an extraordinarily unlikely scenario.
>
> > Dumbass -
>
> > Russia's economy is too small and oil-export dependent for that to
> > happen in the next generation.
>
> > thanks,
>
> > K. Gringioni.
>
> dumbass,
>
> the russian economy doesn't have to be huge or super rich to support a
> league that can compete with the NHL for stars.
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/29/sports/hockey/29hockey.html?em&ex=1...



Dumbass -


Their economy is a one trick pony. Those $100/barrel oil prices are
giving a false sense of its progress. It may take another 10 years,
but the price of oil will eventually take a tumble, as it always does.
Their hard currency earnings will drop drastically and they'll be
right back to where they were in the mid 90s.

I could expound, but will wait for a response before doing so.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.