Chinese "craftsmanship" [Archive]

Andre Jute[_2_]

April 16th 08, 03:59 AM

On Apr 16, 3:06*am, Tom Sherman >
wrote:
> Artoi wrote:
> > In article
> > >,
> > *Andre Jute > wrote:
>
> >> Bought a Chinese water bottle not because I wanted a water bottle but
> >> because I wanted the short water bottle holder that came with it to
> >> hold the battery for my bike lights. After less than 50 hours the
> >> welding on the bottle holder has broken off on both sides. What sort
> >> of an industrial society cannot even get simple welding right? Hell, I
> >> weld better than these guys!
>
> > There are **** and top end products from every country. Some British
> > cars are absolute lemons too. How shocking!
>
> All the parts falling off my MG are of the finest British quality.

I think, if you inspect those inadequate parts carefully, you will
find them sticky-labelled "Lucas Prince of Darkness". Take off the
sticky label and you will discover the real provenance in the legend
stamped underneath: "Magneto Minelli Spaghetti Marinelli".

> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Andre Jute
Long time since I grew too smart to drive British sports cars

Woland99

April 16th 08, 04:06 AM

On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll > wrote:
> chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
> are sucking the planet's money supply.
>
> Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
> Mashuro ?
> Yahnaha welders ?

Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example. So they
have skilled artisans that take pride in the product. But all the
rest is cheap junk. And the reason they "suck the money" is because
our capitalist system loves SLAVERY. Only they call it something
else now - "competitive wages" or some other euphemism.

* * Chas

April 16th 08, 04:53 AM

"Woland99" > wrote in message
...
> On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll > wrote:
> > chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
> > are sucking the planet's money supply.
> >
> > Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
> > Mashuro ?
> > Yahnaha welders ?
>
> Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
> made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
> fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
> They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example. So they
> have skilled artisans that take pride in the product. But all the
> rest is cheap junk. And the reason they "suck the money" is because
> our capitalist system loves SLAVERY. Only they call it something
> else now - "competitive wages" or some other euphemism.

4000 years of tradition based on Cheaper Is Better!

Chas.

* * Chas

April 16th 08, 04:59 AM

"Tom Sherman" > wrote in message
...
> Artoi wrote:
> > In article
> > >,
> > Andre Jute > wrote:
> >
> >> Bought a Chinese water bottle not because I wanted a water bottle but
> >> because I wanted the short water bottle holder that came with it to
> >> hold the battery for my bike lights. After less than 50 hours the
> >> welding on the bottle holder has broken off on both sides. What sort
> >> of an industrial society cannot even get simple welding right? Hell,
I
> >> weld better than these guys!
> >
> > There are **** and top end products from every country. Some British
> > cars are absolute lemons too. How shocking!
> >
> All the parts falling off my MG are of the finest British quality.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Then there is "The Prince of Darkness" ....

http://www.hermit.cc/mania/tmc/articles/lucas.htm

Chas.

[email protected]

April 16th 08, 09:07 AM

On Apr 16, 2:38*am, Andre Jute > wrote:
> Bought a Chinese water bottle not because I wanted a water bottle but
> because I wanted the short water bottle holder that came with it to
> hold the battery for my bike lights. After less than 50 hours the
> welding on the bottle holder has broken off on both sides. What sort
> of an industrial society cannot even get simple welding right? Hell, I
> weld better than these guys!
>
> Andre Jutehttp://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE%20HUMOUR.html

Chinese factories can produce cheap crap, or top notch stuff. It all
depends on what the buyer wants. Since buyers of high quality stuff
usually aren't so focused on cost because their customers aren't
either, there is less of a reason for them to have these things made
inexpensively in China, so China ends up mostly producing cheap (often
crappy) stuff. In other words, the price difference between high
quality form China vs high quality for elsewhere isn't as great as the
price difference between cheap stuff from China vs cheap stuff from
elsewhere. Thus a preponderance of cheap stuff.

Joseph

[email protected][_2_]

April 16th 08, 01:31 PM

On Apr 15, 9:06*pm, Woland99 > wrote:
> On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll > wrote:
>
> > chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
> > are sucking the planet's money supply.
>
> > Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
> > Mashuro ?
> > Yahnaha welders ?
>
> Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
> made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
> fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
> They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example. So they
> have skilled artisans that take pride in the product. But all the
> rest is cheap junk. And the reason they "suck the money" is because
> our capitalist system loves SLAVERY. Only they call it something
> else now - "competitive wages" or some other euphemism.

I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude who
used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.

Davo

April 16th 08, 02:52 PM

wrote:
> On Apr 15, 9:06 pm, Woland99 > wrote:
>> On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll > wrote:
>>
>>> chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
>>> are sucking the planet's money supply.
>>> Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
>>> Mashuro ?
>>> Yahnaha welders ?
>> Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
>> made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
>> fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
>> They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example. So they
>> have skilled artisans that take pride in the product. But all the
>> rest is cheap junk. And the reason they "suck the money" is because
>> our capitalist system loves SLAVERY. Only they call it something
>> else now - "competitive wages" or some other euphemism.
>
> I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
> welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude who
> used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
> considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.
>

I rode a chinese ti mountain bike for a few years, not Habanero, I only
retired it because I changed to a bike with disk brakes (Giant Trance).
Very light and good quality.

[email protected]

April 16th 08, 03:41 PM

On Apr 16, 9:52*am, Davo > wrote:
> wrote:
> > On Apr 15, 9:06 pm, Woland99 > wrote:
> >> On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll > wrote:
>
> >>> chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
> >>> are sucking the planet's money supply.
> >>> Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
> >>> Mashuro ?
> >>> Yahnaha welders ?
> >> Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
> >> made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
> >> fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
> >> They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example. So they
> >> have skilled artisans that take pride in the product. But all the
> >> rest is cheap junk. And the reason they "suck the money" is because
> >> our capitalist system loves SLAVERY. Only they call it something
> >> else now - "competitive wages" or some other euphemism.
>
> > I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
> > welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude who
> > used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
> > considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.
>
> I rode a chinese ti mountain bike for a few years, not Habanero, I only
> retired it because I changed to a bike with disk brakes (Giant Trance).
> Very light and good quality.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

chinese are prone to deceit- you cannot trust them- they will start
working hard but when you turn your back they will slack off and cut
every corner they can- it's more work just trying to check on chinese
quality than you save importing from there- all the while your
companies reputation is on the line- why do you think cervelo had to
change the company building their frames in china ? there are lots of
reports of business who've gone to china to get thier wares
manufactured and got burned by them. lead paint is an example, and
just the tip of a very large iceberg

datakoll

April 16th 08, 04:23 PM

I-80 is the best route to the west coast

* * Chas

April 16th 08, 04:57 PM

"datakoll" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> I-80 is the best route to the west coast

What about Route 66?

"The West is the best.... get hip and we'll do the rest...."

Chas.

Hobbes@spnb&s.com

April 16th 08, 05:14 PM

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:38:49 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute > wrote:

>Bought a Chinese water bottle not because I wanted a water bottle but
>because I wanted the short water bottle holder that came with it to
>hold the battery for my bike lights. After less than 50 hours the
>welding on the bottle holder has broken off on both sides. What sort
>of an industrial society cannot even get simple welding right? Hell, I
>weld better than these guys!

Welcome to the world of price-point engineering. If you're paying for a bottle
and getting a cage included you're at the lowest price point.

In general, the Chinese can build as good a product as you are willing to pay
for - just like anybody else on the planet with modern manufacturing capability.
What distinguishes them is that they are better able to build at the lowest
price point than others.

Of course you can weld better than that. It would also cost about 40 times as
much. Not viable in the "free bottle cage with every bottle" side of the market.
Buy cheap, get cheap.

Battery holders are a bit of a pain. I've resorted to a clunky, ugly plastic
bottle cage with a strap around the "bottle" and down tube. It works.

Hobbes@spnb&s.com

April 16th 08, 05:28 PM

On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 20:06:56 -0700 (PDT), Woland99 > wrote:

>On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll > wrote:
>> chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
>> are sucking the planet's money supply.
>>
>> Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
>> Mashuro ?
>> Yahnaha welders ?
>
>Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
>made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
>fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
>They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example.

If you spec good stuff they will ship good stuff, mostly. Oh, you gotta pay for
that and horrors of horrors good stuff costs more. Doesn't matter what country
is building it or what color the workers are.

There are costs and problems involved in sourcing from China that recommend them
mostly as a source for really cheap stuff made better than you'd expect at that
price point, but not so good at higher price points or high quality goods.

One of the problems is an entire generation of executives, managers and foremen
who have been taught their entire lives that people who run businesses for
profit are greedy, unethical, thieving, lying scum who kill workers and poison
their customers for a buck. Makes the management pool either scarce or scary.
Examples of both have been apparent in recent years.

QC is vital. Again, that encourages mass market, low price-point goods.

* * Chas

April 16th 08, 05:33 PM

> wrote in message
...
On Apr 16, 9:52 am, Davo > wrote:
> wrote:
> > On Apr 15, 9:06 pm, Woland99 > wrote:
> >> On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll > wrote:
>
> >>> chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
> >>> are sucking the planet's money supply.
> >>> Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
> >>> Mashuro ?
> >>> Yahnaha welders ?
> >> Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
> >> made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
> >> fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
> >> They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example. So they
> >> have skilled artisans that take pride in the product. But all the
> >> rest is cheap junk. And the reason they "suck the money" is because
> >> our capitalist system loves SLAVERY. Only they call it something
> >> else now - "competitive wages" or some other euphemism.
>
> > I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
> > welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude who
> > used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
> > considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.
>
> I rode a chinese ti mountain bike for a few years, not Habanero, I only
> retired it because I changed to a bike with disk brakes (Giant Trance).
> Very light and good quality.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

"chinese are prone to deceit- you cannot trust them- they will start
working hard but when you turn your back they will slack off and cut
every corner they can- it's more work just trying to check on chinese
quality than you save importing from there- all the while your
companies reputation is on the line- why do you think cervelo had to
change the company building their frames in china ? there are lots of
reports of business who've gone to china to get thier wares
manufactured and got burned by them. lead paint is an example, and
just the tip of a very large iceberg"

Another point, China as a whole does not recognize any international
patents or copyrights. They produce what ever they can make a buck on. The
government may pay lip service to major international software and
entertainment companies but the beat goes on.

Graft, corruption and bribery are rampant in China. Laws against patent
and copyright infringement are rarely enforced. Fragrant Grease is the
term for what makes things work in China.

Most companies that have taken the manufacture of their products to China
have ended up regretting the move because the Chinese frequently set up
parallel manufacturing facilities and sell bootleg products both within
China and for export.

Case in point, I was doing some consulting with several golf club
manufacturers in 1999 and 2000. One of them decided to take the
manufacture of their flagship drivers to China. These drivers had
investment cast titanium heads with carbon fiber shafts and retailed for
~$500 USD each. Within 6 months the Chinese were selling the exact same
drivers on the internet for $50 USD each and later marketing them on late
night US TV for the same amount.

Another issue, this particular golf club manufacturer taught the Chinese
how to investment cast titanium and electron beam weld the heads together.
Also the lay-up on the carbon fiber shafts was better than anything I'd
seen in the US aerospace industry up until that time! What else can you do
with those technologies? Let's see....

Much of the money going to China gets filtered through the PLA (People's
Liberation Army). China has a 4000 year expansionist tradition! Think
about it!

http://www.sinodefence.com/default.asp

Chas.

N8N

April 16th 08, 05:33 PM

On Apr 16, 12:28*pm, wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 20:06:56 -0700 (PDT), Woland99 > wrote:
> >On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll > wrote:
> >> chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
> >> are sucking the planet's money supply.
>
> >> Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
> >> Mashuro ?
> >> Yahnaha welders ?
>
> >Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
> >made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
> >fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
> >They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example.
>
> If you spec good stuff they will ship good stuff, mostly.

I've heard of that being a problem with Chinese stuff in particular in
several different contexts. You can spec what you want but if your
spec is anything other than "looks kinda like this and make it as
cheap as possible" you pretty much have to send your own QC people
over to make sure nothing happens (proper checks not being done,
substandard materials substituted without notice, etc.)

They are good at pumping stuff out inexpensively, for sure.

nate

[email protected]

April 16th 08, 05:37 PM

On Apr 16, 6:33*pm, "* * Chas" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Apr 16, 9:52 am, Davo > wrote:
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > > On Apr 15, 9:06 pm, Woland99 > wrote:
> > >> On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll > wrote:
>
> > >>> chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
> > >>> are sucking the planet's money supply.
> > >>> Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
> > >>> Mashuro ?
> > >>> Yahnaha welders ?
> > >> Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
> > >> made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
> > >> fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
> > >> They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example. So they
> > >> have skilled artisans that take pride in the product. But all the
> > >> rest is cheap junk. And the reason they "suck the money" is because
> > >> our capitalist system loves SLAVERY. Only they call it something
> > >> else now - "competitive wages" or some other euphemism.
>
> > > I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
> > > welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude who
> > > used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
> > > considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.
>
> > I rode a chinese ti mountain bike for a few years, not Habanero, I only
> > retired it because I changed to a bike with disk brakes (Giant Trance).
> > Very light and good quality.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> "chinese are prone to deceit- you cannot trust them- they will start
> working hard but when you turn your back they will slack off and cut
> every corner they can- it's more work just trying to check on chinese
> quality than you save importing from there- all the while your
> companies reputation is on the line- why do you think cervelo had to
> change the company building their frames in china ? there are lots of
> reports of business who've gone to china to get thier wares
> manufactured and got burned by them. lead paint is an example, and
> just the tip of a very large iceberg"
>
> Another point, China as a whole does not recognize any international
> patents or copyrights. They produce what ever they can make a buck on. The
> government may pay lip service to major international software and
> entertainment companies but the beat goes on.
>
> Graft, corruption and bribery are rampant in China. Laws against patent
> and copyright infringement are rarely enforced. Fragrant Grease is the
> term for what makes things work in China.
>
> Most companies that have taken the manufacture of their products to China
> have ended up regretting the move because the Chinese frequently set up
> parallel manufacturing facilities and sell bootleg products both within
> China and for export.
>
> Case in point, I was doing some consulting with several golf club
> manufacturers in 1999 and 2000. One of them decided to take the
> manufacture of their flagship drivers to China. These drivers had
> investment cast titanium heads with carbon fiber shafts and retailed for
> ~$500 USD each. Within 6 months the Chinese were selling the exact same
> drivers on the internet for $50 USD each and later marketing them on late
> night US TV for the same amount.
>
> Another issue, this particular golf club manufacturer taught the Chinese
> how to investment cast titanium and electron beam weld the heads together.
> Also the lay-up on the carbon fiber shafts was better than anything I'd
> seen in the US aerospace industry up until that time! What else can you do
> with those technologies? Let's see....
>
> Much of the money going to China gets filtered through the PLA (People's
> Liberation Army). China has a 4000 year expansionist tradition! Think
> about it!
>
> http://www.sinodefence.com/default.asp
>
> Chas.

Yeah, but they were nice clubs, right? ;-)

Joseph

HDGuzzi

April 16th 08, 05:47 PM

On Apr 16, 7:57*am, "* * Chas" > wrote:
> "datakoll" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > I-80 is the best route to the west coast
>
> What about Route 66?
>
> "The West is the best.... get hip and we'll do the rest...."
>
> Chas.

Route 66 is a pretender. The REAL, original, coast-to-coast Mother
Road across the country is the old Lincoln Highway. Some of which is
now eaten up by I-80, I-70, US-50 and others. It goes from Manhattan
to Lincoln Park at Land's End in San Francisco.

Woland99

April 16th 08, 06:02 PM

On Apr 16, 11:33 am, "* * Chas" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Apr 16, 9:52 am, Davo > wrote:
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > > On Apr 15, 9:06 pm, Woland99 > wrote:
> > >> On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll > wrote:
>
> > >>> chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
> > >>> are sucking the planet's money supply.
> > >>> Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
> > >>> Mashuro ?
> > >>> Yahnaha welders ?
> > >> Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
> > >> made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
> > >> fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
> > >> They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example. So they
> > >> have skilled artisans that take pride in the product. But all the
> > >> rest is cheap junk. And the reason they "suck the money" is because
> > >> our capitalist system loves SLAVERY. Only they call it something
> > >> else now - "competitive wages" or some other euphemism.
>
> > > I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
> > > welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude who
> > > used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
> > > considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.
>
> > I rode a chinese ti mountain bike for a few years, not Habanero, I only
> > retired it because I changed to a bike with disk brakes (Giant Trance).
> > Very light and good quality.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> "chinese are prone to deceit- you cannot trust them- they will start
> working hard but when you turn your back they will slack off and cut
> every corner they can- it's more work just trying to check on chinese
> quality than you save importing from there- all the while your
> companies reputation is on the line- why do you think cervelo had to
> change the company building their frames in china ? there are lots of
> reports of business who've gone to china to get thier wares
> manufactured and got burned by them. lead paint is an example, and
> just the tip of a very large iceberg"
>
> Another point, China as a whole does not recognize any international
> patents or copyrights. They produce what ever they can make a buck on. The
> government may pay lip service to major international software and
> entertainment companies but the beat goes on.
>
> Graft, corruption and bribery are rampant in China. Laws against patent
> and copyright infringement are rarely enforced. Fragrant Grease is the
> term for what makes things work in China.
>
> Most companies that have taken the manufacture of their products to China
> have ended up regretting the move because the Chinese frequently set up
> parallel manufacturing facilities and sell bootleg products both within
> China and for export.
>
> Case in point, I was doing some consulting with several golf club
> manufacturers in 1999 and 2000. One of them decided to take the
> manufacture of their flagship drivers to China. These drivers had
> investment cast titanium heads with carbon fiber shafts and retailed for
> ~$500 USD each. Within 6 months the Chinese were selling the exact same
> drivers on the internet for $50 USD each and later marketing them on late
> night US TV for the same amount.
>
> Another issue, this particular golf club manufacturer taught the Chinese
> how to investment cast titanium and electron beam weld the heads together.
> Also the lay-up on the carbon fiber shafts was better than anything I'd
> seen in the US aerospace industry up until that time! What else can you do
> with those technologies? Let's see....
>
> Much of the money going to China gets filtered through the PLA (People's
> Liberation Army). China has a 4000 year expansionist tradition! Think
> about it!
>
> http://www.sinodefence.com/default.asp
>
> Chas.

Actually China never had much of "expansionist tradition".
That does not mean they do not have it now. Personally I think that
our so called leaders simply gave up on any notion of competing with
China in the future - that is why they cannot wait to move our entire
manufacturing base there. Next thing that they will introduce are
compulsory Mandarin classes in schools so our kids can understand
orders
while working in a factory assembling cheap plastic toys for Chinese
kids.
Nothing lasts forever - certainly not empires that are governed by
international corporations.

[email protected]

April 16th 08, 06:16 PM

" > wrote:

>I have a chinese made titanium frame.

what brand and model?

* * Chas

April 16th 08, 06:16 PM

"Woland99" > wrote in message
...
> On Apr 16, 11:33 am, "* * Chas" > wrote:
> > > wrote in message
> >
> >
...
> > On Apr 16, 9:52 am, Davo > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > wrote:
> > > > On Apr 15, 9:06 pm, Woland99 > wrote:
> > > >> On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll > wrote:
> >
> > > >>> chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason
Chinese
> > > >>> are sucking the planet's money supply.
> > > >>> Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
> > > >>> Mashuro ?
> > > >>> Yahnaha welders ?
> > > >> Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that
was
> > > >> made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed -
saving
> > > >> fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
> > > >> They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example. So
they
> > > >> have skilled artisans that take pride in the product. But all the
> > > >> rest is cheap junk. And the reason they "suck the money" is
because
> > > >> our capitalist system loves SLAVERY. Only they call it something
> > > >> else now - "competitive wages" or some other euphemism.
> >
> > > > I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish,
nice
> > > > welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude
who
> > > > used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
> > > > considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.
> >
> > > I rode a chinese ti mountain bike for a few years, not Habanero, I
only
> > > retired it because I changed to a bike with disk brakes (Giant
Trance).
> > > Very light and good quality.- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > > - Show quoted text -
> >
> > "chinese are prone to deceit- you cannot trust them- they will start
> > working hard but when you turn your back they will slack off and cut
> > every corner they can- it's more work just trying to check on chinese
> > quality than you save importing from there- all the while your
> > companies reputation is on the line- why do you think cervelo had to
> > change the company building their frames in china ? there are lots of
> > reports of business who've gone to china to get thier wares
> > manufactured and got burned by them. lead paint is an example, and
> > just the tip of a very large iceberg"
> >
> > Another point, China as a whole does not recognize any international
> > patents or copyrights. They produce what ever they can make a buck on.
The
> > government may pay lip service to major international software and
> > entertainment companies but the beat goes on.
> >
> > Graft, corruption and bribery are rampant in China. Laws against
patent
> > and copyright infringement are rarely enforced. Fragrant Grease is the
> > term for what makes things work in China.
> >
> > Most companies that have taken the manufacture of their products to
China
> > have ended up regretting the move because the Chinese frequently set
up
> > parallel manufacturing facilities and sell bootleg products both
within
> > China and for export.
> >
> > Case in point, I was doing some consulting with several golf club
> > manufacturers in 1999 and 2000. One of them decided to take the
> > manufacture of their flagship drivers to China. These drivers had
> > investment cast titanium heads with carbon fiber shafts and retailed
for
> > ~$500 USD each. Within 6 months the Chinese were selling the exact
same
> > drivers on the internet for $50 USD each and later marketing them on
late
> > night US TV for the same amount.
> >
> > Another issue, this particular golf club manufacturer taught the
Chinese
> > how to investment cast titanium and electron beam weld the heads
together.
> > Also the lay-up on the carbon fiber shafts was better than anything
I'd
> > seen in the US aerospace industry up until that time! What else can
you do
> > with those technologies? Let's see....
> >
> > Much of the money going to China gets filtered through the PLA
(People's
> > Liberation Army). China has a 4000 year expansionist tradition! Think
> > about it!
> >
> > http://www.sinodefence.com/default.asp
> >
> > Chas.
>
> Actually China never had much of "expansionist tradition".
> That does not mean they do not have it now. Personally I think that
> our so called leaders simply gave up on any notion of competing with
> China in the future - that is why they cannot wait to move our entire
> manufacturing base there. Next thing that they will introduce are
> compulsory Mandarin classes in schools so our kids can understand
> orders
> while working in a factory assembling cheap plastic toys for Chinese
> kids.
> Nothing lasts forever - certainly not empires that are governed by
> international corporations.

There was a lot of rumbling few years back when the US Army tried to
switch to black berets that were made in China!

Chas.

* * Chas

April 16th 08, 06:23 PM

> wrote in message
...
On Apr 16, 6:33 pm, "* * Chas" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Apr 16, 9:52 am, Davo > wrote:
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > > On Apr 15, 9:06 pm, Woland99 > wrote:
> > >> On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll > wrote:
>
> > >>> chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason
Chinese
> > >>> are sucking the planet's money supply.
> > >>> Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
> > >>> Mashuro ?
> > >>> Yahnaha welders ?
> > >> Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
> > >> made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
> > >> fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
> > >> They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example. So they
> > >> have skilled artisans that take pride in the product. But all the
> > >> rest is cheap junk. And the reason they "suck the money" is because
> > >> our capitalist system loves SLAVERY. Only they call it something
> > >> else now - "competitive wages" or some other euphemism.
>
> > > I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
> > > welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude
who
> > > used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
> > > considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.
>
> > I rode a chinese ti mountain bike for a few years, not Habanero, I
only
> > retired it because I changed to a bike with disk brakes (Giant
Trance).
> > Very light and good quality.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> "chinese are prone to deceit- you cannot trust them- they will start
> working hard but when you turn your back they will slack off and cut
> every corner they can- it's more work just trying to check on chinese
> quality than you save importing from there- all the while your
> companies reputation is on the line- why do you think cervelo had to
> change the company building their frames in china ? there are lots of
> reports of business who've gone to china to get thier wares
> manufactured and got burned by them. lead paint is an example, and
> just the tip of a very large iceberg"
>
> Another point, China as a whole does not recognize any international
> patents or copyrights. They produce what ever they can make a buck on.
The
> government may pay lip service to major international software and
> entertainment companies but the beat goes on.
>
> Graft, corruption and bribery are rampant in China. Laws against patent
> and copyright infringement are rarely enforced. Fragrant Grease is the
> term for what makes things work in China.
>
> Most companies that have taken the manufacture of their products to
China
> have ended up regretting the move because the Chinese frequently set up
> parallel manufacturing facilities and sell bootleg products both within
> China and for export.
>
> Case in point, I was doing some consulting with several golf club
> manufacturers in 1999 and 2000. One of them decided to take the
> manufacture of their flagship drivers to China. These drivers had
> investment cast titanium heads with carbon fiber shafts and retailed for
> ~$500 USD each. Within 6 months the Chinese were selling the exact same
> drivers on the internet for $50 USD each and later marketing them on
late
> night US TV for the same amount.
>
> Another issue, this particular golf club manufacturer taught the Chinese
> how to investment cast titanium and electron beam weld the heads
together.
> Also the lay-up on the carbon fiber shafts was better than anything I'd
> seen in the US aerospace industry up until that time! What else can you
do
> with those technologies? Let's see....
>
> Much of the money going to China gets filtered through the PLA (People's
> Liberation Army). China has a 4000 year expansionist tradition! Think
> about it!
>
> http://www.sinodefence.com/default.asp
>
> Chas.

>Yeah, but they were nice clubs, right? ;-)

>Joseph

I don't know, by that time I parted company because my services were no
longer needed.

BTW, hundreds of employees in San Diego, CA, Prescott, AZ and Tijuana,
Mexico were put out of work by the greed of a few "executives"!

Chas.

Guy Anderson, Sr.

April 16th 08, 06:39 PM

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 05:31:43 -0700 (PDT), "
> wrote:

>>I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
>welds, works great. I've had it for several years.

I have ridden a Habanero ti bike/Chorus/Neuvation wheels for 4 years,
23,000 miles with 0 problems. The welds are beautifully done, easily
equal to Merlin, Moots, Litespeed, etc.

>There is a dude who
>used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
>considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.

This is Mark Hickey. He ceased posting here a couple of years ago, I
think because of the overabundance of off-topic political rancor. He's
great to deal with for frames or complete bikes.

http://www.habcycles.com

[email protected]

April 16th 08, 06:40 PM

On Apr 16, 7:23*pm, "* * Chas" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Apr 16, 6:33 pm, "* * Chas" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > > wrote in message
>
> ...
> > On Apr 16, 9:52 am, Davo > wrote:
>
> > > wrote:
> > > > On Apr 15, 9:06 pm, Woland99 > wrote:
> > > >> On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll > wrote:
>
> > > >>> chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason
> Chinese
> > > >>> are sucking the planet's money supply.
> > > >>> Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
> > > >>> Mashuro ?
> > > >>> Yahnaha welders ?
> > > >> Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
> > > >> made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
> > > >> fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
> > > >> They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example. So they
> > > >> have skilled artisans that take pride in the product. But all the
> > > >> rest is cheap junk. And the reason they "suck the money" is because
> > > >> our capitalist system loves SLAVERY. Only they call it something
> > > >> else now - "competitive wages" or some other euphemism.
>
> > > > I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
> > > > welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude
> who
> > > > used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
> > > > considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.
>
> > > I rode a chinese ti mountain bike for a few years, not Habanero, I
> only
> > > retired it because I changed to a bike with disk brakes (Giant
> Trance).
> > > Very light and good quality.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > "chinese are prone to deceit- you cannot trust them- they will start
> > working hard but when you turn your back they will slack off and cut
> > every corner they can- it's more work just trying to check on chinese
> > quality than you save importing from there- all the while your
> > companies reputation is on the line- why do you think cervelo had to
> > change the company building their frames in china ? there are lots of
> > reports of business who've gone to china to get thier wares
> > manufactured and got burned by them. lead paint is an example, and
> > just the tip of a very large iceberg"
>
> > Another point, China as a whole does not recognize any international
> > patents or copyrights. They produce what ever they can make a buck on.
> The
> > government may pay lip service to major international software and
> > entertainment companies but the beat goes on.
>
> > Graft, corruption and bribery are rampant in China. Laws against patent
> > and copyright infringement are rarely enforced. Fragrant Grease is the
> > term for what makes things work in China.
>
> > Most companies that have taken the manufacture of their products to
> China
> > have ended up regretting the move because the Chinese frequently set up
> > parallel manufacturing facilities and sell bootleg products both within
> > China and for export.
>
> > Case in point, I was doing some consulting with several golf club
> > manufacturers in 1999 and 2000. One of them decided to take the
> > manufacture of their flagship drivers to China. These drivers had
> > investment cast titanium heads with carbon fiber shafts and retailed for
> > ~$500 USD each. Within 6 months the Chinese were selling the exact same
> > drivers on the internet for $50 USD each and later marketing them on
> late
> > night US TV for the same amount.
>
> > Another issue, this particular golf club manufacturer taught the Chinese
> > how to investment cast titanium and electron beam weld the heads
> together.
> > Also the lay-up on the carbon fiber shafts was better than anything I'd
> > seen in the US aerospace industry up until that time! What else can you
> do
> > with those technologies? Let's see....
>
> > Much of the money going to China gets filtered through the PLA (People's
> > Liberation Army). China has a 4000 year expansionist tradition! Think
> > about it!
>
> >http://www.sinodefence.com/default.asp
>
> > Chas.
> >Yeah, but they were nice clubs, right? ;-)
> >Joseph
>
> I don't know, by that time I parted company because my services were no
> longer needed.
>
> BTW, hundreds of employees in San Diego, CA, Prescott, AZ and Tijuana,
> Mexico were put out of work by the greed of a few "executives"!

I don't doubt that, but the original point was to refute that all
Chinese stuff is crap.

Joseph

[email protected]

April 16th 08, 07:55 PM

"Guy Anderson, Sr." > wrote:

>I have ridden a Habanero ti bike/Chorus/Neuvation wheels for 4 years,
>23,000 miles with 0 problems.

what model do you have?

is it a mt bike frame or the cross/tour frame?

[email protected]

April 16th 08, 09:26 PM

On Apr 16, 11:33*am, "* * Chas" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Apr 16, 9:52 am, Davo > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > > On Apr 15, 9:06 pm, Woland99 > wrote:
> > >> On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll > wrote:
>
> > >>> chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
> > >>> are sucking the planet's money supply.
> > >>> Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
> > >>> Mashuro ?
> > >>> Yahnaha welders ?
> > >> Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
> > >> made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
> > >> fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
> > >> They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example. So they
> > >> have skilled artisans that take pride in the product. But all the
> > >> rest is cheap junk. And the reason they "suck the money" is because
> > >> our capitalist system loves SLAVERY. Only they call it something
> > >> else now - "competitive wages" or some other euphemism.
>
> > > I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
> > > welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude who
> > > used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
> > > considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.
>
> > I rode a chinese ti mountain bike for a few years, not Habanero, I only
> > retired it because I changed to a bike with disk brakes (Giant Trance).
> > Very light and good quality.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> "chinese are prone to deceit- you cannot trust them- they will start
> working hard but when you turn your back they will slack off and cut
> every corner they can- it's more work just trying to check on chinese
> quality than you save importing from there- all the while your
> companies reputation is on the line- why do you think cervelo had to
> change the company building their frames in china ? there are lots of
> reports of business who've gone to china to get thier wares
> manufactured and got burned by them. lead paint is an example, and
> just the tip of a very large iceberg"
>
> Another point, China as a whole does not recognize any international
> patents or copyrights. They produce what ever they can make a buck on. The
> government may pay lip service to major international software and
> entertainment companies but the beat goes on.
>
> Graft, corruption and bribery are rampant in China. Laws against patent
> and copyright infringement are rarely enforced. Fragrant Grease is the
> term for what makes things work in China.
>
> Most companies that have taken the manufacture of their products to China
> have ended up regretting the move because the Chinese frequently set up
> parallel manufacturing facilities and sell bootleg products both within
> China and for export.
>
> Case in point, I was doing some consulting with several golf club
> manufacturers in 1999 and 2000. One of them decided to take the
> manufacture of their flagship drivers to China. These drivers had
> investment cast titanium heads with carbon fiber shafts and retailed for
> ~$500 USD each. Within 6 months the Chinese were selling the exact same
> drivers on the internet for $50 USD each and later marketing them on late
> night US TV for the same amount.
>
> Another issue, this particular golf club manufacturer taught the Chinese
> how to investment cast titanium and electron beam weld the heads together.
> Also the lay-up on the carbon fiber shafts was better than anything I'd
> seen in the US aerospace industry up until that time! What else can you do
> with those technologies? Let's see....
>
> Much of the money going to China gets filtered through the PLA (People's
> Liberation Army). China has a 4000 year expansionist tradition! Think
> about it!
>
> http://www.sinodefence.com/default.asp
>
> Chas.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I appreciate your input; but it's not just the top of the ladder, the
bottom rung are just as bad- if you've ever worked with someone from
the prc you'll discover a lack of commitment and carelessness towards
their product: I know this smacks of racism, but it is more of a
comment on their cultural conditioning. It's like asking a garbageman
to employ graceful movements and flourish when throwing bags left on
the curb into the back of the truck

Davo

April 16th 08, 11:29 PM

wrote:
> " > wrote:
>
>> I have a chinese made titanium frame.
>
> what brand and model?

http://www.xacd.com.cn/

datakoll

April 17th 08, 12:08 AM

40 is/was kindaofa drag but when I wuz there to see I may not have
absorbed.
However, the people are honest conservative types or were.
that's ah real nice red tired 29er on the Chinese ferrari Ti site.
Chinese as a people are good with higher math.
If you read these posts you will see yourselves not the Chinese.
US 98 across the Florida panhandle is/was a good ride before Katrina.

Guy Anderson, Sr.

April 17th 08, 12:58 AM

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:55:18 -0500, wrote:

>what model do you have?
>
>is it a mt bike frame or the cross/tour frame?

Neither. It is a standard road frame, with classic "square" geometry.
It sold for $695 in 2004, but it's up to $795 now--still a terriffic
bargain! Disclaimer: I have no affiliation whatsoever with Habanero
or Mark Hickey. I just love the bike!

Tom Sherman[_2_]

April 17th 08, 01:46 AM

aka Andres Muro wrote:
> [...]
> I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
> welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude who
> used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
> considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.
>
A fine bicycle if you only want to turn to the right.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Tom Sherman[_2_]

April 17th 08, 01:47 AM

datakoll aka gene daniels wrote:
>
> I-80 is the best route to the west coast

I-80 goes through IOWA!!!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Tom Sherman[_2_]

April 17th 08, 02:18 AM

* * Chas wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ...
> On Apr 16, 9:52 am, Davo > wrote:
>> wrote:
>>> On Apr 15, 9:06 pm, Woland99 > wrote:
>>>> On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll > wrote:
>>>>> chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
>>>>> are sucking the planet's money supply.
>>>>> Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
>>>>> Mashuro ?
>>>>> Yahnaha welders ?
>>>> Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
>>>> made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
>>>> fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
>>>> They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example. So they
>>>> have skilled artisans that take pride in the product. But all the
>>>> rest is cheap junk. And the reason they "suck the money" is because
>>>> our capitalist system loves SLAVERY. Only they call it something
>>>> else now - "competitive wages" or some other euphemism.
>>> I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
>>> welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude who
>>> used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
>>> considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.
>> I rode a chinese ti mountain bike for a few years, not Habanero, I only
>> retired it because I changed to a bike with disk brakes (Giant Trance).
>> Very light and good quality.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> "chinese are prone to deceit- you cannot trust them- they will start
> working hard but when you turn your back they will slack off and cut
> every corner they can- it's more work just trying to check on chinese
> quality than you save importing from there- all the while your
> companies reputation is on the line- why do you think cervelo had to
> change the company building their frames in china ? there are lots of
> reports of business who've gone to china to get thier wares
> manufactured and got burned by them. lead paint is an example, and
> just the tip of a very large iceberg"
>
> Another point, China as a whole does not recognize any international
> patents or copyrights. They produce what ever they can make a buck on. The
> government may pay lip service to major international software and
> entertainment companies but the beat goes on.
>
> Graft, corruption and bribery are rampant in China. Laws against patent
> and copyright infringement are rarely enforced. Fragrant Grease is the
> term for what makes things work in China.
>
> Most companies that have taken the manufacture of their products to China
> have ended up regretting the move because the Chinese frequently set up
> parallel manufacturing facilities and sell bootleg products both within
> China and for export.
>
> Case in point, I was doing some consulting with several golf club
> manufacturers in 1999 and 2000. One of them decided to take the
> manufacture of their flagship drivers to China. These drivers had
> investment cast titanium heads with carbon fiber shafts and retailed for
> ~$500 USD each. Within 6 months the Chinese were selling the exact same
> drivers on the internet for $50 USD each and later marketing them on late
> night US TV for the same amount.
>
> Another issue, this particular golf club manufacturer taught the Chinese
> how to investment cast titanium and electron beam weld the heads together.
> Also the lay-up on the carbon fiber shafts was better than anything I'd
> seen in the US aerospace industry up until that time! What else can you do
> with those technologies? Let's see....
>
This behavior (by US executives) borders on the treasonous. Nixon should
have stayed home.

> Much of the money going to China gets filtered through the PLA (People's
> Liberation Army). China has a 4000 year expansionist tradition! Think
> about it!
>
> http://www.sinodefence.com/default.asp
>
Not to mention due to pre-natal gender screenings and abortions for
gender choice, China will have 10 of millions more young adult males
than females in two decades. Cannon fodder for an army of conquest, anyone?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Tom Sherman[_2_]

April 17th 08, 02:33 AM

Woland99 wrote:
> On Apr 16, 11:33 am, "* * Chas" > wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>> On Apr 16, 9:52 am, Davo > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Apr 15, 9:06 pm, Woland99 > wrote:
>>>>> On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll > wrote:
>>>>>> chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
>>>>>> are sucking the planet's money supply.
>>>>>> Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
>>>>>> Mashuro ?
>>>>>> Yahnaha welders ?
>>>>> Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
>>>>> made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
>>>>> fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
>>>>> They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example. So they
>>>>> have skilled artisans that take pride in the product. But all the
>>>>> rest is cheap junk. And the reason they "suck the money" is because
>>>>> our capitalist system loves SLAVERY. Only they call it something
>>>>> else now - "competitive wages" or some other euphemism.
>>>> I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
>>>> welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude who
>>>> used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
>>>> considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.
>>> I rode a chinese ti mountain bike for a few years, not Habanero, I only
>>> retired it because I changed to a bike with disk brakes (Giant Trance).
>>> Very light and good quality.- Hide quoted text -
>>> - Show quoted text -
>> "chinese are prone to deceit- you cannot trust them- they will start
>> working hard but when you turn your back they will slack off and cut
>> every corner they can- it's more work just trying to check on chinese
>> quality than you save importing from there- all the while your
>> companies reputation is on the line- why do you think cervelo had to
>> change the company building their frames in china ? there are lots of
>> reports of business who've gone to china to get thier wares
>> manufactured and got burned by them. lead paint is an example, and
>> just the tip of a very large iceberg"
>>
>> Another point, China as a whole does not recognize any international
>> patents or copyrights. They produce what ever they can make a buck on. The
>> government may pay lip service to major international software and
>> entertainment companies but the beat goes on.
>>
>> Graft, corruption and bribery are rampant in China. Laws against patent
>> and copyright infringement are rarely enforced. Fragrant Grease is the
>> term for what makes things work in China.
>>
>> Most companies that have taken the manufacture of their products to China
>> have ended up regretting the move because the Chinese frequently set up
>> parallel manufacturing facilities and sell bootleg products both within
>> China and for export.
>>
>> Case in point, I was doing some consulting with several golf club
>> manufacturers in 1999 and 2000. One of them decided to take the
>> manufacture of their flagship drivers to China. These drivers had
>> investment cast titanium heads with carbon fiber shafts and retailed for
>> ~$500 USD each. Within 6 months the Chinese were selling the exact same
>> drivers on the internet for $50 USD each and later marketing them on late
>> night US TV for the same amount.
>>
>> Another issue, this particular golf club manufacturer taught the Chinese
>> how to investment cast titanium and electron beam weld the heads together.
>> Also the lay-up on the carbon fiber shafts was better than anything I'd
>> seen in the US aerospace industry up until that time! What else can you do
>> with those technologies? Let's see....
>>
>> Much of the money going to China gets filtered through the PLA (People's
>> Liberation Army). China has a 4000 year expansionist tradition! Think
>> about it!
>>
>> http://www.sinodefence.com/default.asp
>>
>> Chas.
>
> Actually China never had much of "expansionist tradition".
> That does not mean they do not have it now. Personally I think that
> our so called leaders simply gave up on any notion of competing with
> China in the future - that is why they cannot wait to move our entire
> manufacturing base there. Next thing that they will introduce are
> compulsory Mandarin classes in schools so our kids can understand
> orders
> while working in a factory assembling cheap plastic toys for Chinese
> kids.
> Nothing lasts forever - certainly not empires that are governed by
> international corporations.

China will collapse from "water mining", deforestation and topsoil
depletion within the next century. What they do in the meanwhile to
compensate for resource shortages will likely not be pleasant.

The failure to curb over-breeding has doomed human civilization. But no,
let us put our selfish individual needs above those of society!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Tom Sherman[_2_]

April 17th 08, 02:34 AM

Guy Anderson, Sr. wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 05:31:43 -0700 (PDT), "
> > wrote:
>
>>> I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
>> welds, works great. I've had it for several years.
>
> I have ridden a Habanero ti bike/Chorus/Neuvation wheels for 4 years,
> 23,000 miles with 0 problems. The welds are beautifully done, easily
> equal to Merlin, Moots, Litespeed, etc.
>
>> There is a dude who
>> used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
>> considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.
>
> This is Mark Hickey. He ceased posting here a couple of years ago, I
> think because of the overabundance of off-topic political rancor. He's
> great to deal with for frames or complete bikes.
>
Mark Hickey was one of the main instigators of political rancor on this
newsgroup.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Tom Sherman[_2_]

April 17th 08, 02:38 AM

wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 20:06:56 -0700 (PDT), Woland99 > wrote:
>
>> On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll > wrote:
>>> chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
>>> are sucking the planet's money supply.
>>>
>>> Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
>>> Mashuro ?
>>> Yahnaha welders ?
>> Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
>> made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
>> fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
>> They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example.
>
> If you spec good stuff they will ship good stuff, mostly. Oh, you gotta pay for
> that and horrors of horrors good stuff costs more. Doesn't matter what country
> is building it or what color the workers are.
>
> There are costs and problems involved in sourcing from China that recommend them
> mostly as a source for really cheap stuff made better than you'd expect at that
> price point, but not so good at higher price points or high quality goods.
>
> One of the problems is an entire generation of executives, managers and foremen
> who have been taught their entire lives that people who run businesses for
> profit are greedy, unethical, thieving, lying scum who kill workers and poison
> their customers for a buck.

Hey, is that not what they teach in MBA programs - coded to make it
sound civilized, no?

Of course, in the real world, power over employees is more important
than profit - the rich already have more than enough material wealth,
but an unsatisfied lust for more power.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Tom Sherman[_2_]

April 17th 08, 02:41 AM

wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:38:49 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute > wrote:
>
>> Bought a Chinese water bottle not because I wanted a water bottle but
>> because I wanted the short water bottle holder that came with it to
>> hold the battery for my bike lights. After less than 50 hours the
>> welding on the bottle holder has broken off on both sides. What sort
>> of an industrial society cannot even get simple welding right? Hell, I
>> weld better than these guys!
>
> Welcome to the world of price-point engineering. If you're paying for a bottle
> and getting a cage included you're at the lowest price point.
>
> In general, the Chinese can build as good a product as you are willing to pay
> for - just like anybody else on the planet with modern manufacturing capability.
> What distinguishes them is that they are better able to build at the lowest
> price point than others.[...]
>
Yes, the wonders of no real environmental standards and virtual slave
labor created by job shortages, no social safety net and totalitarian
government. Conditions are so bad, one is surprised that a communist
(small "c") revolution does not occur against the fascist government.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Ryan Cousineau

April 17th 08, 03:43 AM

In article >,
Tom Sherman > wrote:

> aka Andres Muro wrote:
> > [...]
> > I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
> > welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude who
> > used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
> > considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.
> >
> A fine bicycle if you only want to turn to the right.

Oh yes. My club-mate has one of these, and commonly laments how Mark's
rapacious capitalism caused him to use unbutted tubes.

Which saves MONEY!
And then he passes the savings on to the final consumer, but only PARTLY!

No wait, that's not it, he praises his Habanero to the skies as a great
product sold at a great price.

Tom, you're being an idiot, and you're taking cheap shots when your
target is absent and undeserving. That makes you a small, small person.

Grow up.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

Tom Sherman[_2_]

April 17th 08, 03:51 AM

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> In article >,
> Tom Sherman > wrote:
>
>> aka Andres Muro wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
>>> welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude who
>>> used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
>>> considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.
>>>
>> A fine bicycle if you only want to turn to the right.
>
> Oh yes. My club-mate has one of these, and commonly laments how Mark's
> rapacious capitalism caused him to use unbutted tubes.
>
> Which saves MONEY!
> And then he passes the savings on to the final consumer, but only PARTLY!
>
> No wait, that's not it, he praises his Habanero to the skies as a great
> product sold at a great price
>
It's a joke, son.

> Tom, you're being an idiot, and you're taking cheap shots when your
> target is absent and undeserving. That makes you a small, small person.
>
Mr. Hickey took plenty of cheap political shots on this group, then ran
away when the heat got too much.

> Grow up.
>
I would buy a bicycle from someone who I disagreed with on politics, but
not if that person expressed an ignorant but "ha ha" attitude. And no,
the smiley faces at the end of the comments do not make it alright.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Artoi

April 17th 08, 06:26 AM

In article >,
Tom Sherman > wrote:

> wrote:
> > On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:38:49 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute >
> > wrote:

> > In general, the Chinese can build as good a product as you are willing to
> > pay
> > for - just like anybody else on the planet with modern manufacturing
> > capability.
> > What distinguishes them is that they are better able to build at the lowest
> > price point than others.[...]
> >
> Yes, the wonders of no real environmental standards and virtual slave
> labor created by job shortages, no social safety net and totalitarian
> government. Conditions are so bad, one is surprised that a communist
> (small "c") revolution does not occur against the fascist government.

Some creature forgot to take off his rose coloured glasses.
--

Artoi

April 17th 08, 06:28 AM

In article >,
Tom Sherman > wrote:

> China will collapse from "water mining", deforestation and topsoil
> depletion within the next century. What they do in the meanwhile to
> compensate for resource shortages will likely not be pleasant.
>
> The failure to curb over-breeding has doomed human civilization. But no,
> let us put our selfish individual needs above those of society!

What's this to do with RBT, apart from your lack of a political vent?
Try another more appropriate group.
--

Tom Sherman[_2_]

April 17th 08, 06:32 AM

Artoi ? wrote:
> In article >,
> Tom Sherman > wrote:
>
>> China will collapse from "water mining", deforestation and topsoil
>> depletion within the next century. What they do in the meanwhile to
>> compensate for resource shortages will likely not be pleasant.
>>
>> The failure to curb over-breeding has doomed human civilization. But no,
>> let us put our selfish individual needs above those of society!
>
> What's this to do with RBT, apart from your lack of a political vent?
> Try another more appropriate group.
>
If I can make one person feel depressed and hopeless by discussing
reality, my time has been well spent. ;)

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Woland99

April 17th 08, 08:45 AM

On Apr 16, 8:18 pm, Tom Sherman >
wrote:
> * * Chas wrote:
> > > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Apr 16, 9:52 am, Davo > wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >>> On Apr 15, 9:06 pm, Woland99 > wrote:
> >>>> On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll > wrote:
> >>>>> chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
> >>>>> are sucking the planet's money supply.
> >>>>> Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
> >>>>> Mashuro ?
> >>>>> Yahnaha welders ?
> >>>> Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
> >>>> made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
> >>>> fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
> >>>> They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example. So they
> >>>> have skilled artisans that take pride in the product. But all the
> >>>> rest is cheap junk. And the reason they "suck the money" is because
> >>>> our capitalist system loves SLAVERY. Only they call it something
> >>>> else now - "competitive wages" or some other euphemism.
> >>> I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
> >>> welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude who
> >>> used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
> >>> considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.
> >> I rode a chinese ti mountain bike for a few years, not Habanero, I only
> >> retired it because I changed to a bike with disk brakes (Giant Trance).
> >> Very light and good quality.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > "chinese are prone to deceit- you cannot trust them- they will start
> > working hard but when you turn your back they will slack off and cut
> > every corner they can- it's more work just trying to check on chinese
> > quality than you save importing from there- all the while your
> > companies reputation is on the line- why do you think cervelo had to
> > change the company building their frames in china ? there are lots of
> > reports of business who've gone to china to get thier wares
> > manufactured and got burned by them. lead paint is an example, and
> > just the tip of a very large iceberg"
>
> > Another point, China as a whole does not recognize any international
> > patents or copyrights. They produce what ever they can make a buck on. The
> > government may pay lip service to major international software and
> > entertainment companies but the beat goes on.
>
> > Graft, corruption and bribery are rampant in China. Laws against patent
> > and copyright infringement are rarely enforced. Fragrant Grease is the
> > term for what makes things work in China.
>
> > Most companies that have taken the manufacture of their products to China
> > have ended up regretting the move because the Chinese frequently set up
> > parallel manufacturing facilities and sell bootleg products both within
> > China and for export.
>
> > Case in point, I was doing some consulting with several golf club
> > manufacturers in 1999 and 2000. One of them decided to take the
> > manufacture of their flagship drivers to China. These drivers had
> > investment cast titanium heads with carbon fiber shafts and retailed for
> > ~$500 USD each. Within 6 months the Chinese were selling the exact same
> > drivers on the internet for $50 USD each and later marketing them on late
> > night US TV for the same amount.
>
> > Another issue, this particular golf club manufacturer taught the Chinese
> > how to investment cast titanium and electron beam weld the heads together.
> > Also the lay-up on the carbon fiber shafts was better than anything I'd
> > seen in the US aerospace industry up until that time! What else can you do
> > with those technologies? Let's see....
>
> This behavior (by US executives) borders on the treasonous. Nixon should
> have stayed home.
>
> > Much of the money going to China gets filtered through the PLA (People's
> > Liberation Army). China has a 4000 year expansionist tradition! Think
> > about it!
>
> >http://www.sinodefence.com/default.asp
>
> Not to mention due to pre-natal gender screenings and abortions for
> gender choice, China will have 10 of millions more young adult males
> than females in two decades. Cannon fodder for an army of conquest, anyone?
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Watch "Secret Honor" - Robert Altman's movie about Nixon - according
to it 1972 trip was planned decades ahead - everything that happened
since then and will happened was already planned too. On a very bad
day I believe our so called leaders have the capitulation act ready.
To compete with China thyey would have to value US sovereignity
more than their profit - but no "American" CEO is ready to do that.
If bottom falls out and Saudis decide to stop accepting dollars for
their oil and move to euros all these mega rich folks here simply
move to Dubai to escape economic chaos.
And NO - Chinese are NOT superior in higher math - certainly not any
better than Americans with some math gift. Want a good mathematician?
Get average engineering student from Russia, Poland or any other
Slavic country.

Hobbes@spnb&s.com

April 17th 08, 03:44 PM

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:41:02 -0500, Tom Sherman
> wrote:

wrote:
>> On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:38:49 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute > wrote:
>>
>>> Bought a Chinese water bottle not because I wanted a water bottle but
>>> because I wanted the short water bottle holder that came with it to
>>> hold the battery for my bike lights. After less than 50 hours the
>>> welding on the bottle holder has broken off on both sides. What sort
>>> of an industrial society cannot even get simple welding right? Hell, I
>>> weld better than these guys!
>>
>> Welcome to the world of price-point engineering. If you're paying for a bottle
>> and getting a cage included you're at the lowest price point.
>>
>> In general, the Chinese can build as good a product as you are willing to pay
>> for - just like anybody else on the planet with modern manufacturing capability.
>> What distinguishes them is that they are better able to build at the lowest
>> price point than others.[...]
>>
>Yes, the wonders of no real environmental standards and virtual slave
>labor created by job shortages, no social safety net and totalitarian
>government. Conditions are so bad, one is surprised that a communist
>(small "c") revolution does not occur against the fascist government.

China is a very curious example. The early stages of industrialization are
indeed ugly, check Dickens, Sinclair, ordinary history books. What's odd about
China is that there's carbon fiber, titanium and microprocessors involved in
their industrial revolution. As ugly as industrialization can get ya gotta
remember that people choose it as better than living on a small plot of land
hoping it'll get them through the winter.

I'll put my money on a union movement there. Hell, I'm pretty much always down
with the working schmuck as an engine of economic change. They don't have much
muscle per, but they are mostly everybody and they share interests. I'd count on
a "rogue" labor union movement in the next ten years or so.

About the time the Chinese people start becoming confident of their economic
prospects you'll see the pollution getting taken care of. That's how it
generally works and I don't think China will be an exception.

Of course, it depends on whether the government does anything remarkably stupid
militarily. Countries with low male replacement rates usually refuse to go to
war and China can certainly check that box, but their demographics are so alien
that it's hard to see if the rule applies. What does get my attention is the
old "100 million screaming Chinamen" of the cold war era is now armed with a
hell of a lot better than the SKS nowadays.

Hobbes@spnb&s.com

April 17th 08, 03:47 PM

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:33:59 -0700 (PDT), N8N > wrote:

>On Apr 16, 12:28*pm, wrote:
>> On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 20:06:56 -0700 (PDT), Woland99 > wrote:
>> >On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll > wrote:
>> >> chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
>> >> are sucking the planet's money supply.
>>
>> >> Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
>> >> Mashuro ?
>> >> Yahnaha welders ?
>>
>> >Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
>> >made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
>> >fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
>> >They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example.
>>
>> If you spec good stuff they will ship good stuff, mostly.
>
>I've heard of that being a problem with Chinese stuff in particular in
>several different contexts. You can spec what you want but if your
>spec is anything other than "looks kinda like this and make it as
>cheap as possible" you pretty much have to send your own QC people
>over to make sure nothing happens (proper checks not being done,
>substandard materials substituted without notice, etc.)

I've been working on a lot of Chinese built electronics and it ranges from
horrid to "all the good features, but done real cheap." Basically you have to
spec every damn thing down to the metallurgy. The companies that do that can get
remarkable value.

>They are good at pumping stuff out inexpensively, for sure.

Ayup.

Hobbes@spnb&s.com

April 17th 08, 03:49 PM

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:38:05 -0500, Tom Sherman
> wrote:

wrote:
>> On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 20:06:56 -0700 (PDT), Woland99 > wrote:
>>
>>> On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll > wrote:
>>>> chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
>>>> are sucking the planet's money supply.
>>>>
>>>> Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
>>>> Mashuro ?
>>>> Yahnaha welders ?
>>> Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
>>> made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
>>> fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
>>> They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example.
>>
>> If you spec good stuff they will ship good stuff, mostly. Oh, you gotta pay for
>> that and horrors of horrors good stuff costs more. Doesn't matter what country
>> is building it or what color the workers are.
>>
>> There are costs and problems involved in sourcing from China that recommend them
>> mostly as a source for really cheap stuff made better than you'd expect at that
>> price point, but not so good at higher price points or high quality goods.
>>
>> One of the problems is an entire generation of executives, managers and foremen
>> who have been taught their entire lives that people who run businesses for
>> profit are greedy, unethical, thieving, lying scum who kill workers and poison
>> their customers for a buck.
>
>Hey, is that not what they teach in MBA programs - coded to make it
>sound civilized, no?

No.

>Of course, in the real world, power over employees is more important
>than profit - the rich already have more than enough material wealth,
>but an unsatisfied lust for more power.

The lust for power guys all gravitate to liberal politics. Far more rewarding.

RonSonic

April 17th 08, 04:29 PM

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 06:29:35 +0800, Davo > wrote:

wrote:
>> " > wrote:
>>
>>> I have a chinese made titanium frame.
>>
>> what brand and model?
>
>http://www.xacd.com.cn/

I emailed those guys for info and prices once. I got a terse reply stating
prices and shipping arrangements. Four hours later I got another email demanding
to know if I was going to order or not. I let it rest until the next day -
didn't want to give a hasty answer (for me the hasty answer is always no). Turn
on my computer the next day there was yet another follow up email that I
remember as "why you not answer my email." (yeah, I'm being fair about the
grammar)

I replied that I really wanted more information like geometry and maybe a
drawing or photo of the frame under discussion and that this was a big enough
purchase to require more than a few moments of thought. And "Oh, and please
don't push - four hours is a bit soon for a follow-up." That was answered with
"why ask price if you don't want to buy" along with nothing of substance and
more hurried 3rd world, open-air-market hustle talk.

I've read a number of posts from people who've happily done business with that
company, I just don't understand how the deal was made. Maybe I got the wrong
salesman or something. Maybe cultural differences - where haggling is typical
people tend to ask all the other questions first, discuss specifications and
special order stuff and then ask the price last.

So please, how did it work for you? Did you just order on the basis of the
picture on the website (as my correspondent seemed to expect) or what?

Ron

Woland99

April 17th 08, 05:24 PM

On Apr 17, 9:44 am, wrote:
> Of course, it depends on whether the government does anything remarkably stupid
> militarily. Countries with low male replacement rates usually refuse to go to
> war and China can certainly check that box, but their demographics are so alien
> that it's hard to see if the rule applies. What does get my attention is the
> old "100 million screaming Chinamen" of the cold war era is now armed with a
> hell of a lot better than the SKS nowadays.

What if they will? The whole idea of pouring investments into China
hoping that
perhaps that newly found wealth will pacify them may prove a
remarkably stupid.
But hey if they become belligerent then it is a gold mine for military
industrial
complex all over again (if we decide to compete). What scares me more
is that we
created that industrial giant before we event made a smallest attempt
at truly
sustainable way of life - there is simply no way that planet can
survive if we
have billion Chinese with same lifestyle as Americans.

Hank

April 17th 08, 06:05 PM

On Apr 16, 10:02*am, Woland99 > wrote:
> On Apr 16, 11:33 am, "* * Chas" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > wrote in message
>
> ...
> > On Apr 16, 9:52 am, Davo > wrote:
>
> > > wrote:
> > > > On Apr 15, 9:06 pm, Woland99 > wrote:
> > > >> On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll > wrote:
>
> > > >>> chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
> > > >>> are sucking the planet's money supply.
> > > >>> Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
> > > >>> Mashuro ?
> > > >>> Yahnaha welders ?
> > > >> Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
> > > >> made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
> > > >> fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
> > > >> They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example. So they
> > > >> have skilled artisans that take pride in the product. But all the
> > > >> rest is cheap junk. And the reason they "suck the money" is because
> > > >> our capitalist system loves SLAVERY. Only they call it something
> > > >> else now - "competitive wages" or some other euphemism.
>
> > > > I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
> > > > welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude who
> > > > used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
> > > > considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.
>
> > > I rode a chinese ti mountain bike for a few years, not Habanero, I only
> > > retired it because I changed to a bike with disk brakes (Giant Trance)..
> > > Very light and good quality.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > "chinese are prone to deceit- you cannot trust them- they will start
> > working hard but when you turn your back they will slack off and cut
> > every corner they can- it's more work just trying to check on chinese
> > quality than you save importing from there- all the while your
> > companies reputation is on the line- why do you think cervelo had to
> > change the company building their frames in china ? there are lots of
> > reports of business who've gone to china to get thier wares
> > manufactured and got burned by them. lead paint is an example, and
> > just the tip of a very large iceberg"
>
> > Another point, China as a whole does not recognize any international
> > patents or copyrights. They produce what ever they can make a buck on. The
> > government may pay lip service to major international software and
> > entertainment companies but the beat goes on.
>
> > Graft, corruption and bribery are rampant in China. Laws against patent
> > and copyright infringement are rarely enforced. Fragrant Grease is the
> > term for what makes things work in China.
>
> > Most companies that have taken the manufacture of their products to China
> > have ended up regretting the move because the Chinese frequently set up
> > parallel manufacturing facilities and sell bootleg products both within
> > China and for export.
>
> > Case in point, I was doing some consulting with several golf club
> > manufacturers in 1999 and 2000. One of them decided to take the
> > manufacture of their flagship drivers to China. These drivers had
> > investment cast titanium heads with carbon fiber shafts and retailed for
> > ~$500 USD each. Within 6 months the Chinese were selling the exact same
> > drivers on the internet for $50 USD each and later marketing them on late
> > night US TV for the same amount.
>
> > Another issue, this particular golf club manufacturer taught the Chinese
> > how to investment cast titanium and electron beam weld the heads together.

Michael Press

April 17th 08, 07:18 PM

In article >,
wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:33:59 -0700 (PDT), N8N > wrote:
>
> >On Apr 16, 12:28*pm, wrote:
> >> On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 20:06:56 -0700 (PDT), Woland99 > wrote:
> >> >On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll > wrote:
> >> >> chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
> >> >> are sucking the planet's money supply.
> >>
> >> >> Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
> >> >> Mashuro ?
> >> >> Yahnaha welders ?
> >>
> >> >Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
> >> >made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
> >> >fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
> >> >They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example.
> >>
> >> If you spec good stuff they will ship good stuff, mostly.
> >
> >I've heard of that being a problem with Chinese stuff in particular in
> >several different contexts. You can spec what you want but if your
> >spec is anything other than "looks kinda like this and make it as
> >cheap as possible" you pretty much have to send your own QC people
> >over to make sure nothing happens (proper checks not being done,
> >substandard materials substituted without notice, etc.)
>
> I've been working on a lot of Chinese built electronics and it ranges from
> horrid to "all the good features, but done real cheap." Basically you have to
> spec every damn thing down to the metallurgy. The companies that do that can get
> remarkable value.

I said this once before. Bought at a bargain store
a wood handle, steel blade kitchen scraper that is made in China.
As fine a piece of steel as you could ask for; better than almost all.
It goes tinnnnnngggggg when struck.

--
Michael Press

Hobbes@spnb&s.com

April 18th 08, 12:45 AM

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:24:23 -0700 (PDT), Woland99 > wrote:

>On Apr 17, 9:44 am, wrote:
>> Of course, it depends on whether the government does anything remarkably stupid
>> militarily. Countries with low male replacement rates usually refuse to go to
>> war and China can certainly check that box, but their demographics are so alien
>> that it's hard to see if the rule applies. What does get my attention is the
>> old "100 million screaming Chinamen" of the cold war era is now armed with a
>> hell of a lot better than the SKS nowadays.
>
>What if they will? The whole idea of pouring investments into China
>hoping that
>perhaps that newly found wealth will pacify them may prove a
>remarkably stupid.
>But hey if they become belligerent then it is a gold mine for military
>industrial
>complex all over again (if we decide to compete). What scares me more
>is that we
>created that industrial giant before we event made a smallest attempt
>at truly
>sustainable way of life - there is simply no way that planet can
>survive if we
>have billion Chinese with same lifestyle as Americans.

Why do you say that?

And just what do you mean by the same "lifestyle as Americans." The lifestyle
of Americans has changed dramatically in the last 80 years and significantly in
the last 40. I would expect more changes in the future and I'd expect Chinese
would have a somewhat different way of life even if handed exactly the same
resources.

Not really disagreeing, just curious what you're seeing in your crystal ball.

As for the prospect of a belligerent China, yeah, you make a very good point.

Tom Sherman[_2_]

April 18th 08, 03:06 AM

wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:38:05 -0500, Tom Sherman
> > wrote:
>
>> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 20:06:56 -0700 (PDT), Woland99 > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll > wrote:
>>>>> chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
>>>>> are sucking the planet's money supply.
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
>>>>> Mashuro ?
>>>>> Yahnaha welders ?
>>>> Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
>>>> made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
>>>> fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
>>>> They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example.
>>> If you spec good stuff they will ship good stuff, mostly. Oh, you gotta pay for
>>> that and horrors of horrors good stuff costs more. Doesn't matter what country
>>> is building it or what color the workers are.
>>>
>>> There are costs and problems involved in sourcing from China that recommend them
>>> mostly as a source for really cheap stuff made better than you'd expect at that
>>> price point, but not so good at higher price points or high quality goods.
>>>
>>> One of the problems is an entire generation of executives, managers and foremen
>>> who have been taught their entire lives that people who run businesses for
>>> profit are greedy, unethical, thieving, lying scum who kill workers and poison
>>> their customers for a buck.
>> Hey, is that not what they teach in MBA programs - coded to make it
>> sound civilized, no?
>
> No.
>
>> Of course, in the real world, power over employees is more important
>> than profit - the rich already have more than enough material wealth,
>> but an unsatisfied lust for more power.
>
> The lust for power guys all gravitate to liberal politics. Far more rewarding.

What planet is this on?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Tom Sherman[_2_]

April 18th 08, 03:11 AM

wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:24:23 -0700 (PDT), Woland99 > wrote:
>
>> On Apr 17, 9:44 am, wrote:
>>> Of course, it depends on whether the government does anything remarkably stupid
>>> militarily. Countries with low male replacement rates usually refuse to go to
>>> war and China can certainly check that box, but their demographics are so alien
>>> that it's hard to see if the rule applies. What does get my attention is the
>>> old "100 million screaming Chinamen" of the cold war era is now armed with a
>>> hell of a lot better than the SKS nowadays.
>> What if they will? The whole idea of pouring investments into China
>> hoping that
>> perhaps that newly found wealth will pacify them may prove a
>> remarkably stupid.
>> But hey if they become belligerent then it is a gold mine for military
>> industrial
>> complex all over again (if we decide to compete). What scares me more
>> is that we
>> created that industrial giant before we event made a smallest attempt
>> at truly
>> sustainable way of life - there is simply no way that planet can
>> survive if we
>> have billion Chinese with same lifestyle as Americans.
>
> Why do you say that?
>
For instance, it would take the entire grain production of the world to
feed enough livestock for the Chinese to have the same per capita meat
consumption as the current USians. Similarly, there is not enough
hydrocarbon extraction potential for the same per capita energy
consumption in China as in the US.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Hobbes@spnb&s.com

April 18th 08, 02:56 PM

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:11:00 -0500, Tom Sherman
> wrote:

wrote:
>> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:24:23 -0700 (PDT), Woland99 > wrote:
>>
>>> On Apr 17, 9:44 am, wrote:
>>>> Of course, it depends on whether the government does anything remarkably stupid
>>>> militarily. Countries with low male replacement rates usually refuse to go to
>>>> war and China can certainly check that box, but their demographics are so alien
>>>> that it's hard to see if the rule applies. What does get my attention is the
>>>> old "100 million screaming Chinamen" of the cold war era is now armed with a
>>>> hell of a lot better than the SKS nowadays.
>>> What if they will? The whole idea of pouring investments into China
>>> hoping that
>>> perhaps that newly found wealth will pacify them may prove a
>>> remarkably stupid.
>>> But hey if they become belligerent then it is a gold mine for military
>>> industrial
>>> complex all over again (if we decide to compete). What scares me more
>>> is that we
>>> created that industrial giant before we event made a smallest attempt
>>> at truly
>>> sustainable way of life - there is simply no way that planet can
>>> survive if we
>>> have billion Chinese with same lifestyle as Americans.
>>
>> Why do you say that?
>>
>For instance, it would take the entire grain production of the world to
>feed enough livestock for the Chinese to have the same per capita meat
>consumption as the current USians. Similarly, there is not enough
>hydrocarbon extraction potential for the same per capita energy
>consumption in China as in the US.

So grow more grain. There is capacity. As for "hydrocarbon extraction" let China
continue developing hydro and I doubt they have the same irrational fear of
nuclear power that has kept us burning coal.

Hobbes@spnb&s.com

April 18th 08, 02:58 PM

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:06:48 -0500, Tom Sherman
> wrote:

wrote:
>> On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:38:05 -0500, Tom Sherman
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 15 Apr 2008 20:06:56 -0700 (PDT), Woland99 > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 15, 9:47 pm, datakoll > wrote:
>>>>>> chinese goods are excellent. The quality level is the reason Chinese
>>>>>> are sucking the planet's money supply.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don't remember pre-Yamaha ? litlte toys dolls on 42nd street and
>>>>>> Mashuro ?
>>>>>> Yahnaha welders ?
>>>>> Surely you must be joking. Almost everything I ever bought that was
>>>>> made in China was substandard in some way. Poorly designed - saving
>>>>> fraction of cent on material in the load-bearing areas etc.
>>>>> They build some things OK - higher end guitars for example.
>>>> If you spec good stuff they will ship good stuff, mostly. Oh, you gotta pay for
>>>> that and horrors of horrors good stuff costs more. Doesn't matter what country
>>>> is building it or what color the workers are.
>>>>
>>>> There are costs and problems involved in sourcing from China that recommend them
>>>> mostly as a source for really cheap stuff made better than you'd expect at that
>>>> price point, but not so good at higher price points or high quality goods.
>>>>
>>>> One of the problems is an entire generation of executives, managers and foremen
>>>> who have been taught their entire lives that people who run businesses for
>>>> profit are greedy, unethical, thieving, lying scum who kill workers and poison
>>>> their customers for a buck.
>>> Hey, is that not what they teach in MBA programs - coded to make it
>>> sound civilized, no?
>>
>> No.
>>
>>> Of course, in the real world, power over employees is more important
>>> than profit - the rich already have more than enough material wealth,
>>> but an unsatisfied lust for more power.
>>
>> The lust for power guys all gravitate to liberal politics. Far more rewarding.
>
>What planet is this on?

The one that invented global warmism as an excuse to dictate every action of
every person, from what sort of electric lamp he hangs from his ceiling to the
sorts of foods he should eat.

Well, sure that hasn't exactly worked out for them, but not because that isn't
the intent.

* * Chas

April 18th 08, 07:05 PM

> wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:11:00 -0500, Tom Sherman
> > wrote:
>
> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:24:23 -0700 (PDT), Woland99
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Apr 17, 9:44 am, wrote:
> >>>> Of course, it depends on whether the government does anything
remarkably stupid
> >>>> militarily. Countries with low male replacement rates usually
refuse to go to
> >>>> war and China can certainly check that box, but their demographics
are so alien
> >>>> that it's hard to see if the rule applies. What does get my
attention is the
> >>>> old "100 million screaming Chinamen" of the cold war era is now
armed with a
> >>>> hell of a lot better than the SKS nowadays.
> >>> What if they will? The whole idea of pouring investments into China
> >>> hoping that
> >>> perhaps that newly found wealth will pacify them may prove a
> >>> remarkably stupid.
> >>> But hey if they become belligerent then it is a gold mine for
military
> >>> industrial
> >>> complex all over again (if we decide to compete). What scares me
more
> >>> is that we
> >>> created that industrial giant before we event made a smallest
attempt
> >>> at truly
> >>> sustainable way of life - there is simply no way that planet can
> >>> survive if we
> >>> have billion Chinese with same lifestyle as Americans.
> >>
> >> Why do you say that?
> >>
> >For instance, it would take the entire grain production of the world to
> >feed enough livestock for the Chinese to have the same per capita meat
> >consumption as the current USians. Similarly, there is not enough
> >hydrocarbon extraction potential for the same per capita energy
> >consumption in China as in the US.
>
> So grow more grain. There is capacity. As for "hydrocarbon extraction"
let China
> continue developing hydro and I doubt they have the same irrational fear
of
> nuclear power that has kept us burning coal.
>

Only 15% of the land in China is arable, the rest is mountainous or
deserts. Due SW of China is one of the major breadbaskets or rather rice
baskets of the world. China has been creating worldwide food shortages by
purchasing food stocks from producing countries at higher prices than the
residents of those countries can afford to pay.

What's going to happen when the country with the world's largest
population and military can no longer feed it's people? Do the math!

Chas.

Donald Gillies

April 18th 08, 08:17 PM

Tom Sherman > writes:

aka Andres Muro wrote:
>> [...]
>> I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
>> welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude who
>> used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
>> considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.
>>
>A fine bicycle if you only want to turn to the right.

Indeed, the $795 price tag comes with a hidden price. You are keeping
the chinese defense contractor welders in top form for when they build
titanium jets to kick our asses.

That's what right-wing scum like Mark Hickey (or George Bush) won't
tell you. They pick ours pocket while saying spouting some nonsense
about the american way, how great is capitalism, laughing all the way
to the bank ...

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA, USA

* * Chas

April 18th 08, 08:28 PM

"Donald Gillies" > wrote in message
...
> Tom Sherman > writes:
>
> aka Andres Muro wrote:
> >> [...]
> >> I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
> >> welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude
who
> >> used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
> >> considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.
> >>
> >A fine bicycle if you only want to turn to the right.
>
> Indeed, the $795 price tag comes with a hidden price. You are keeping
> the chinese defense contractor welders in top form for when they build
> titanium jets to kick our asses.
>
> That's what right-wing scum like Mark Hickey (or George Bush) won't
> tell you. They pick ours pocket while saying spouting some nonsense
> about the american way, how great is capitalism, laughing all the way
> to the bank ...
>
> - Don Gillies
> San Diego, CA, USA

Remember the people who kept us scared about the threat of communist world
domination? Some of them are the very same people who are enabling the PLA
to carry out it's goal!

Chas.

Tom Sherman[_2_]

April 19th 08, 03:24 AM

wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:11:00 -0500, Tom Sherman
> > wrote:
>
>> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:24:23 -0700 (PDT), Woland99 > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Apr 17, 9:44 am, wrote:
>>>>> Of course, it depends on whether the government does anything remarkably stupid
>>>>> militarily. Countries with low male replacement rates usually refuse to go to
>>>>> war and China can certainly check that box, but their demographics are so alien
>>>>> that it's hard to see if the rule applies. What does get my attention is the
>>>>> old "100 million screaming Chinamen" of the cold war era is now armed with a
>>>>> hell of a lot better than the SKS nowadays.
>>>> What if they will? The whole idea of pouring investments into China
>>>> hoping that
>>>> perhaps that newly found wealth will pacify them may prove a
>>>> remarkably stupid.
>>>> But hey if they become belligerent then it is a gold mine for military
>>>> industrial
>>>> complex all over again (if we decide to compete). What scares me more
>>>> is that we
>>>> created that industrial giant before we event made a smallest attempt
>>>> at truly
>>>> sustainable way of life - there is simply no way that planet can
>>>> survive if we
>>>> have billion Chinese with same lifestyle as Americans.
>>> Why do you say that?
>>>
>> For instance, it would take the entire grain production of the world to
>> feed enough livestock for the Chinese to have the same per capita meat
>> consumption as the current USians. Similarly, there is not enough
>> hydrocarbon extraction potential for the same per capita energy
>> consumption in China as in the US.
>
> So grow more grain. There is capacity.

Really? Why not just let them eat cake?

> As for "hydrocarbon extraction" let China
> continue developing hydro

Where will they get more rivers to dam?

> and I doubt they have the same irrational fear of
> nuclear power that has kept us burning coal.
>
Where will they get the uranium?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Tosspot[_2_]

April 19th 08, 08:41 AM

Tom Sherman wrote:
> wrote:

<snip>

>> and I doubt they have the same irrational fear of
>> nuclear power that has kept us burning coal.
> Where will they get the uranium?

On the open market, same as everyone else?

Tom Sherman[_2_]

April 19th 08, 01:38 PM

Tosspot wrote:
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> and I doubt they have the same irrational fear of
>>> nuclear power that has kept us burning coal.
>> Where will they get the uranium?
>
> On the open market, same as everyone else?
>
Yes, but the supply of uranium is limited, no matter the price the buyer
is willing to pay.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

Hobbes@spnb&s.com

April 19th 08, 02:14 PM

On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:24:31 -0500, Tom Sherman
> wrote:

wrote:
>> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:11:00 -0500, Tom Sherman
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:24:23 -0700 (PDT), Woland99 > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 17, 9:44 am, wrote:
>>>>>> Of course, it depends on whether the government does anything remarkably stupid
>>>>>> militarily. Countries with low male replacement rates usually refuse to go to
>>>>>> war and China can certainly check that box, but their demographics are so alien
>>>>>> that it's hard to see if the rule applies. What does get my attention is the
>>>>>> old "100 million screaming Chinamen" of the cold war era is now armed with a
>>>>>> hell of a lot better than the SKS nowadays.
>>>>> What if they will? The whole idea of pouring investments into China
>>>>> hoping that
>>>>> perhaps that newly found wealth will pacify them may prove a
>>>>> remarkably stupid.
>>>>> But hey if they become belligerent then it is a gold mine for military
>>>>> industrial
>>>>> complex all over again (if we decide to compete). What scares me more
>>>>> is that we
>>>>> created that industrial giant before we event made a smallest attempt
>>>>> at truly
>>>>> sustainable way of life - there is simply no way that planet can
>>>>> survive if we
>>>>> have billion Chinese with same lifestyle as Americans.
>>>> Why do you say that?
>>>>
>>> For instance, it would take the entire grain production of the world to
>>> feed enough livestock for the Chinese to have the same per capita meat
>>> consumption as the current USians. Similarly, there is not enough
>>> hydrocarbon extraction potential for the same per capita energy
>>> consumption in China as in the US.
>>
>> So grow more grain. There is capacity.
>
>Really? Why not just let them eat cake?

Crank up the capacity. The industrialized countries all have surplus farm land
from the old days and the undeveloped countries don't have industrial farming.
Put those two things to work and you've got more grain.

Oh, and end the market-corrupting, food-wasting ethanol subsidies. Collusion
between the Warmist cult and ADM has resulted in a stupid, expensive and cruel
policy.

>> As for "hydrocarbon extraction" let China
>> continue developing hydro
>
>Where will they get more rivers to dam?
>
>> and I doubt they have the same irrational fear of
>> nuclear power that has kept us burning coal.
>>
>Where will they get the uranium?

Same place everyone else does, either mine it or buy retired Russian bomb stuff.

[email protected][_2_]

April 19th 08, 04:19 PM

On Apr 18, 1:17*pm, (Donald Gillies) wrote:
> Tom Sherman > writes:
> aka Andres Muro wrote:
> >> [...]
> >> I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
> >> welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude who
> >> used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
> >> considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.
>
> >A fine bicycle if you only want to turn to the right.
>
> Indeed, the $795 price tag comes with a hidden price. *You are keeping
> the chinese defense contractor welders in top form for when they build
> titanium jets to kick our asses.
>
> That's what right-wing scum like Mark Hickey (or George Bush) won't
> tell you. *They pick ours pocket while saying spouting some nonsense
> about the american way, how great is capitalism, laughing all the way
> to the bank ...
>
> - Don Gillies
> San Diego, CA, USA

Truth be that while I never met Mark and he seemed like a right wing
waco, I still liked him. When i ride my bike with groups, I am sure
that many companions are right wing wacos. There are also left wing
wacos like myself and everything in between.

Trying to shop in businesses with ideologically compatible people can
be tough unless you live in certain communities. I am sure that If I
lived in Berkley I would be happilly shopping and supporting people of
similar ideology. However, living in El Paso, it is tough. Most
shoping in done in corporations. Most local grocery stores have closed
and the ones remaining are very far. I shop at Target, Albertsons,
Marshals etc.

I give a little cycling business to a friend shop owner who is an
admitted republican because, as he says, he doesn't like to pay taxes
and the republicans are always promising to lower his. He says that he
likes Obama a lot more, but he will still vote republican. The other
shop owner that I support is an Obama supporter and has campaigned for
him.

Ultimatelly Sheldon used to promote and sell mark's bikes. I doubt
that they ever talked politics.

Andres

Nate Nagel[_2_]

April 19th 08, 04:37 PM

wrote:
> On Apr 18, 1:17 pm, (Donald Gillies) wrote:
>
>>Tom Sherman > writes:
>>
aka Andres Muro wrote:
>>>
>>>>[...]
>>>>I have a chinese made titanium frame. It's great. Nice finish, nice
>>>>welds, works great. I've had it for several years. There is a dude who
>>>>used to post here who also sells Chinese made ti frames. They are
>>>>considered top of the line. The are called Habaneros.
>>
>>>A fine bicycle if you only want to turn to the right.
>>
>>Indeed, the $795 price tag comes with a hidden price. You are keeping
>>the chinese defense contractor welders in top form for when they build
>>titanium jets to kick our asses.
>>
>>That's what right-wing scum like Mark Hickey (or George Bush) won't
>>tell you. They pick ours pocket while saying spouting some nonsense
>>about the american way, how great is capitalism, laughing all the way
>>to the bank ...
>>
>>- Don Gillies
>>San Diego, CA, USA
>
>
> Truth be that while I never met Mark and he seemed like a right wing
> waco, I still liked him. When i ride my bike with groups, I am sure
> that many companions are right wing wacos. There are also left wing
> wacos like myself and everything in between.
>
> Trying to shop in businesses with ideologically compatible people can
> be tough unless you live in certain communities. I am sure that If I
> lived in Berkley I would be happilly shopping and supporting people of
> similar ideology. However, living in El Paso, it is tough. Most
> shoping in done in corporations. Most local grocery stores have closed
> and the ones remaining are very far. I shop at Target, Albertsons,
> Marshals etc.
>
> I give a little cycling business to a friend shop owner who is an
> admitted republican because, as he says, he doesn't like to pay taxes
> and the republicans are always promising to lower his. He says that he
> likes Obama a lot more, but he will still vote republican. The other
> shop owner that I support is an Obama supporter and has campaigned for
> him.
>
> Ultimatelly Sheldon used to promote and sell mark's bikes. I doubt
> that they ever talked politics.
>
> Andres

There's a lot of things to like about both the "right" (at least
traditional conservatives, like small government, state's rights, etc.)
and the "left" (environmental awareness, social programs) just as there
are many things to *dislike* about both sides. I dream of a day when I
can vote for someone who actually reflects my own beliefs.

Pigeonholing someone because you don't like the guy that he voted for in
the last election is silly; maybe he voted for that guy because of
reasons that you might actually agree with and didn't vote for your guy
because of an issue you don't care about. e.g. someone might have voted
for Bush because of the Democrats' stand on gun control, not because
they supported the war in Iraq.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Ron Ruff

April 19th 08, 05:24 PM

On Apr 19, 9:19*am, " > wrote:
> I give a little cycling business to a friend shop owner who is an
> admitted republican because, as he says, he doesn't like to pay taxes
> and the republicans are always promising to lower his.

I've heard a similar story from a couple of people... hate the "tax
and spend" dems but love the reps who only spend but don't tax. So now
we have huge deficits, and value of the dollar drops like a stone...
high inflation will be next. Not to mention the "illegal" financial
shenanigans that we will all get to pay for. The "solution"? Bush
gives tax rebates to forestall the crash until he is out, and McCain
wants to give another freebie in the form of cutting the gas tax this
summer. Sure, if they keep throwing "free" money into the system it
will put off the inevitable... and make it that much worse when it
eventually happens. No more of this BS...

Nate Nagel[_2_]

April 19th 08, 05:33 PM

Ron Ruff wrote:
> On Apr 19, 9:19 am, " > wrote:
>
>>I give a little cycling business to a friend shop owner who is an
>>admitted republican because, as he says, he doesn't like to pay taxes
>>and the republicans are always promising to lower his.
>
>
> I've heard a similar story from a couple of people... hate the "tax
> and spend" dems but love the reps who only spend but don't tax. So now
> we have huge deficits, and value of the dollar drops like a stone...
> high inflation will be next. Not to mention the "illegal" financial
> shenanigans that we will all get to pay for. The "solution"? Bush
> gives tax rebates to forestall the crash until he is out, and McCain
> wants to give another freebie in the form of cutting the gas tax this
> summer. Sure, if they keep throwing "free" money into the system it
> will put off the inevitable... and make it that much worse when it
> eventually happens. No more of this BS...

the gas tax holiday won't happen, it's campaign rhetoric pure and
simple. Assuming McCain isn't a complete idiot he knows it'll never
actually happen.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

* * Chas

April 19th 08, 07:30 PM

"Ron Ruff" > wrote in message
...
On Apr 19, 9:19 am, " > wrote:
> I give a little cycling business to a friend shop owner who is an
> admitted republican because, as he says, he doesn't like to pay taxes
> and the republicans are always promising to lower his.

"I've heard a similar story from a couple of people... hate the "tax
and spend" dems but love the reps who only spend but don't tax. So now
we have huge deficits, and value of the dollar drops like a stone...
high inflation will be next. Not to mention the "illegal" financial
shenanigans that we will all get to pay for. The "solution"? Bush
gives tax rebates to forestall the crash until he is out, and McCain
wants to give another freebie in the form of cutting the gas tax this
summer. Sure, if they keep throwing "free" money into the system it
will put off the inevitable... and make it that much worse when it
eventually happens. No more of this BS..."

In the late 1980s I used to visit some folks in the former Yugoslavia. In
1987 and 88 the exchange rate was around 6 to 8 Dinars to the US dollar.
In 1989 the exchange rate was over 200 Dinars to the USD and going up
hourly. Taking Dinars in or out of the country was officially "frowned
upon" plus it was illegal for average citizens to possess foreign
currency.

Foreign visitors were expected to exchange at least a token amount of
currency at the border. I was embarrassed when I exchanged two $100
traveler's checks and walked out with over 40,000 Dinars in small
denomination bills.

Same thing used to happen in Mexico when they would devalue the peso.

Point being, we in the US could someday face the same kinds of problems.

Chas.

Tom Sherman[_2_]

April 20th 08, 12:59 AM

wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:24:31 -0500, Tom Sherman
> > wrote:
>
>> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 21:11:00 -0500, Tom Sherman
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:24:23 -0700 (PDT), Woland99 > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 17, 9:44 am, wrote:
>>>>>>> Of course, it depends on whether the government does anything remarkably stupid
>>>>>>> militarily. Countries with low male replacement rates usually refuse to go to
>>>>>>> war and China can certainly check that box, but their demographics are so alien
>>>>>>> that it's hard to see if the rule applies. What does get my attention is the
>>>>>>> old "100 million screaming Chinamen" of the cold war era is now armed with a
>>>>>>> hell of a lot better than the SKS nowadays.
>>>>>> What if they will? The whole idea of pouring investments into China
>>>>>> hoping that
>>>>>> perhaps that newly found wealth will pacify them may prove a
>>>>>> remarkably stupid.
>>>>>> But hey if they become belligerent then it is a gold mine for military
>>>>>> industrial
>>>>>> complex all over again (if we decide to compete). What scares me more
>>>>>> is that we
>>>>>> created that industrial giant before we event made a smallest attempt
>>>>>> at truly
>>>>>> sustainable way of life - there is simply no way that planet can
>>>>>> survive if we
>>>>>> have billion Chinese with same lifestyle as Americans.
>>>>> Why do you say that?
>>>>>
>>>> For instance, it would take the entire grain production of the world to
>>>> feed enough livestock for the Chinese to have the same per capita meat
>>>> consumption as the current USians. Similarly, there is not enough
>>>> hydrocarbon extraction potential for the same per capita energy
>>>> consumption in China as in the US.
>>> So grow more grain. There is capacity.
>> Really? Why not just let them eat cake?
>
> Crank up the capacity. The industrialized countries all have surplus farm land
> from the old days and the undeveloped countries don't have industrial farming.
> Put those two things to work and you've got more grain.
>
Can grain production be increased several fold? Highly unlikely, no?

> Oh, and end the market-corrupting, food-wasting ethanol subsidies. Collusion
> between the Warmist cult and ADM has resulted in a stupid, expensive and cruel
> policy.
>
>
>>> As for "hydrocarbon extraction" let China
>>> continue developing hydro
>> Where will they get more rivers to dam?
>>
>>> and I doubt they have the same irrational fear of
>>> nuclear power that has kept us burning coal.
>>>
>> Where will they get the uranium?
>
> Same place everyone else does, either mine it or buy retired Russian bomb stuff.

The amount of uranium that can be practically mined and extracted is a
finite and rapidly shrinking resource.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful