More carnage.

[PoB]

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Cyclist-dragged-under-wheels-of.4031109.jp

A friend saw the accident happen this morning - he's only part time so I'll
ask him about it tomorrow.

The accident opposite the Kings Theatre I saw myself (school bus, the door
was locked with the kids inside), and it has been waiting in the wings for a
long time - the geometry of the corner is such that buses can't get round
without either swinging wide on Bruntsfield Place - busy road, not going to
happen, or by entering Gilmour Place wide and over the ASL, which is what
they normally do, literally bullying the cyclists waiting there out of the
way with engine revs and jerks - this one got it wrong. And yes, I have
repeatedly informed the local council about it - the police just said "not
our job mate, we just police things, ask the council" - my old councillor
promised to look into it, but lost his post (was deselected) in the last
election (which shows how long it's been an issue) and I've not heard from
the new incumbent.

Sorry for the waffle, bit perturbed by it all.

pOB

[David Hansen]

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:24:44 +0100 someone who may be "PoB"
> wrote this:-

>The accident opposite the Kings Theatre I saw myself (school bus, the door
>was locked with the kids inside), and it has been waiting in the wings for a
>long time - the geometry of the corner is such that buses can't get round
>without either swinging wide on Bruntsfield Place - busy road, not going to
>happen, or by entering Gilmour Place wide and over the ASL, which is what
>they normally do, literally bullying the cyclists waiting there out of the
>way with engine revs and jerks - this one got it wrong. And yes, I have
>repeatedly informed the local council about it - the police just said "not
>our job mate, we just police things, ask the council" - my old councillor
>promised to look into it, but lost his post (was deselected) in the last
>election (which shows how long it's been an issue) and I've not heard from
>the new incumbent.

I hope that you will be providing all that background to the police.




--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

[_[_2_]]

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 15:07:39 +0100, David Hansen wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:24:44 +0100 someone who may be "PoB"
> > wrote this:-
>
>>The accident opposite the Kings Theatre I saw myself (school bus, the door
>>was locked with the kids inside), and it has been waiting in the wings for a
>>long time - the geometry of the corner is such that buses can't get round
>>without either swinging wide on Bruntsfield Place - busy road, not going to
>>happen, or by entering Gilmour Place wide and over the ASL, which is what
>>they normally do, literally bullying the cyclists waiting there out of the
>>way with engine revs and jerks - this one got it wrong. And yes, I have
>>repeatedly informed the local council about it - the police just said "not
>>our job mate, we just police things, ask the council" - my old councillor
>>promised to look into it, but lost his post (was deselected) in the last
>>election (which shows how long it's been an issue) and I've not heard from
>>the new incumbent.
>
> I hope that you will be providing all that background to the police.

And to the newspaper.

[Nick Kew]

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 15:07:39 +0100
David Hansen > wrote:


> I hope that you will be providing all that background to the police.

Indeed. But the police rarely have power to change things.

The local press (anyone who reported the incident) might
be more productive, if they might be persuaded to campaign
to fix the underlying problem, and perhaps "name and shame"
people who have been told but ignored it (especially if
you've been so well-organised as to keep copies of your
correspondence on the subject).

--
not me guv

[Don Whybrow]

PoB wrote:
> http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Cyclist-dragged-under-wheels-of.4031109.jp
>
> A friend saw the accident happen this morning - he's only part time so I'll
> ask him about it tomorrow.

This is on my commute route, but occurred after I had been past. My wife
works a couple of streets along and went out to get the milk for the
office to see the ambulances, fire engine and tent as shown on the BBC
report [1]. There was a lot of blood on the road. She rang me to make
sure I was not involved.

A colleague at work lives near the haulage company base and has had
several close encounters with them on his bike. Apparently they always
appear to be in a hurry.

On my way home I doffed my cap as I passed.


[1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7372906.stm

--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

You guys got something against spam? (Vriess, in _Alien 4_)

[David Hansen]

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:29:10 +0100 someone who may be Don Whybrow
> wrote this:-

>A colleague at work lives near the haulage company base and has had
>several close encounters with them on his bike. Apparently they always
>appear to be in a hurry.

Well worth mentioning to the police. There might be a criminal
conspiracy between those who run the business and their drivers,
though the police are unlikely to act on this.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

[_[_2_]]

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:50:43 +0100, David Hansen wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:29:10 +0100 someone who may be Don Whybrow
> > wrote this:-
>
>>A colleague at work lives near the haulage company base and has had
>>several close encounters with them on his bike. Apparently they always
>>appear to be in a hurry.
>
> Well worth mentioning to the police. There might be a criminal
> conspiracy between those who run the business and their drivers,
> though the police are unlikely to act on this.

Hanlon's (or possibly Heinlein's) razor is appropriate here.

[David Hansen]

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:29:10 +0100 someone who may be Don Whybrow
> wrote this:-

>This is on my commute route, but occurred after I had been past. My wife
>works a couple of streets along and went out to get the milk for the
>office to see the ambulances, fire engine and tent as shown on the BBC
>report [1].

I have occasionally thought that those lorries are too large and
heavy for use in Edinburgh. My sympathies to the victim, his family
and friends.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

[naked_draughtsman[_3_]]

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:29:10 +0100, Don Whybrow wrote:
> [1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7372906.stm
>

The BBC article says a 'dumper truck' was involved. (The Scotsman article
wouldn't open for me).

Do they mean a big wagon with a tipping bit on the back about the length
of a lorry/bus?
My interpretation of 'dumper truck' is one of those things
which tips from the front and typically has a small turning circle as the
chassis is articulated in the middle.

peter

[!Speedy Gonzales!]

"naked_draughtsman" > wrote in message
...
> Do they mean a big wagon with a tipping bit on the back about the length
> of a lorry/bus?

There are 2 stories here, a fatality today in an incident involving a truck
http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/Cyclist-dragged-under-wheels-of.4031109.jp
and a story last week where a cyclist was dragged under a bus but luckily
escaped with only a broken ankle,
http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/topstories/City-cyclist-trapped-under-wheels.4012318.jp

--
!Speedy Gonzales!

Remove the SPAMTRAP to reply

[Don Whybrow]

PoB wrote:
> http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Cyclist-dragged-under-wheels-of.4031109.jp
>
> A friend saw the accident happen this morning - he's only part time so I'll
> ask him about it tomorrow.

Forth news has had an appeal by the police for witnesses to come
forward. I trust your friend has already been in contact.

--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

"To communicate with Mars, converse with spirits, To report the
behaviour of the sea monster, Describe the horoscope,
haruspicate or scry, Observe disease in signatures." (T.S.Eliot)

[Don Whybrow]

naked_draughtsman wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:29:10 +0100, Don Whybrow wrote:
>> [1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7372906.stm
>>
>
> The BBC article says a 'dumper truck' was involved. (The Scotsman article
> wouldn't open for me).
>
> Do they mean a big wagon with a tipping bit on the back about the length
> of a lorry/bus?
> My interpretation of 'dumper truck' is one of those things
> which tips from the front and typically has a small turning circle as the
> chassis is articulated in the middle.

This firm operate a fleet of big blue aggregate trucks ...

http://www.neilwilliamshaulage.co.uk/haulage/haulage.htm

I would hazard a guess at it being one of the 6 or 8 wheeler versions
rather than the articulated one.

--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

Sense is not cognition but sensation. (Douglas Robinson)

[David Hansen]

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:58:52 -0500 someone who may be
naked_draughtsman > wrote this:-

>The BBC article says a 'dumper truck' was involved. (The Scotsman article
>wouldn't open for me).
>
>Do they mean a big wagon with a tipping bit on the back about the length
>of a lorry/bus?

The sort of thing often seen being driven round the streets of
Edinburgh is the sort shown on the second photo at
<http://www.neilwilliamshaulage.co.uk/haulage/haulage.htm> and I
guess the motorist involved was driving one of them.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

[David Hansen]

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:29:10 +0100 someone who may be Don Whybrow
> wrote this:-

>[1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7372906.stm

I note the posting someone has made in another place:

================================================== ==================

At least the words used now - "A cyclist has died after a collision
involving a dumper truck..." are neutral as to blame. I sent comment
to the Beeb this morning about Version 1 of the story which said "A
cyclist has been killed after colliding with a dumper truck....".

================================================== ==================



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

[Don Whybrow]

PoB wrote:
> http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/edinburgh/Cyclist-dragged-under-wheels-of.4031109.jp
>
> A friend saw the accident happen this morning - he's only part time so I'll
> ask him about it tomorrow.
>

Another take on things in the Daily Record.

<http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/news-feed/2008/04/30/screams-as-cyclist-crushed-by-truck-86908-20399564/>

Apparently both cyclist and lorry turning left, though no mention of who
got to the lights first.


--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

"My God! The thought of that evil man, loose in London--with
money, from God only knows what source--fomenting riot and
rebellion during a public emergency--and in control of an Engine-
driven press! It's nightmarish!" (Gibson-Sterling, "The
Difference Engine")

[David Hansen]

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:13:50 +0100 someone who may be Don Whybrow
> wrote this:-

><http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/news-feed/2008/04/30/screams-as-cyclist-crushed-by-truck-86908-20399564/>
>
>Apparently both cyclist and lorry turning left, though no mention of who
>got to the lights first.

I am waiting for further details to emerge before coming to a
conclusion on who, if anyone, is to blame in this particular
instance.

However, if the bit in the paper, "I heard him say to someone he
hadn't felt or seen a thing.", is correct then it confirms my
previous view that these things are too large to be driven around
Edinburgh in the large numbers I see them rumbling through the
streets.

I think that the operators of these lorries generally have a
cavalier attitude to safety.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

[David Hansen]

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 17:13:50 +0100 someone who may be Don Whybrow
> wrote this:-

>Another take on things in the Daily Record.

And I see that the Evening News have now published a name
<http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/latestnews/Police-name-cyclist-killed-in.4033552.jp>.

Some of the comments reveal how deranged the anti-cycling lobby are,
using someone's death to spout their usual drivel. However, the
first comment is worth repeating:

"Maybe time to start looking at prohibiting these vehicles from the
narrow streets of Edinburgh. That's four fatalities I can think of
in recent memory caused by tipper trucks. The two children in
Muirhouse, the Albanian lad in Gorgie and now this. In all cases the
driver appears to have been unable to see what was happening around
him. Not surprising as these things are designed for working in
quarries and landfill sites, not in close proximity to children,
pedestrians and cyclists."

I too thought of the children killed in Muirhouse when I heard of
this death. In that case the company had failed to employ a
banksman, though they were eventually let off by the courts for this
failure.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

[Pob]

"David Hansen" > wrote in message
...
================================================== ==================
>
> At least the words used now - "A cyclist has died after a collision
> involving a dumper truck..." are neutral as to blame. I sent comment
> to the Beeb this morning about Version 1 of the story which said "A
> cyclist has been killed after colliding with a dumper truck....".
>

Who did you write to? They've used the construction implying blame to the
cyclist in the update where they name him this morning....

" He was turning left into Nicolson Street from West Richmond Street when he
collided with the truck."

pOB

[Pob]

Ah - found it.

Bit early to focus on hyperlinks.

pOB

[JNugent[_4_]]

Pob wrote:
> "David Hansen" > wrote in message
> ...
> ================================================== ==================
>> At least the words used now - "A cyclist has died after a collision
>> involving a dumper truck..." are neutral as to blame. I sent comment
>> to the Beeb this morning about Version 1 of the story which said "A
>> cyclist has been killed after colliding with a dumper truck....".
>>
>
> Who did you write to? They've used the construction implying blame to the
> cyclist in the update where they name him this morning....
>
> " He was turning left into Nicolson Street from West Richmond Street when he
> collided with the truck."

That doesn't sound like the classic lorry/bike collision where the lorry
is turning left and the bike (on the left) is going straight across.

Yesterday, I saw a rigid lorry (a brand new cement-mixer, as it happens)
with a prominent warning to undertaking cyclists on the rear nearside
mudflap, presumably right where a cyclist would see it. The first I've
seen (or noticed) Good idea, I thought.

[PoB]

"JNugent" > wrote in message news:ON-| > " He was turning left
into Nicolson Street from West Richmond Street when he
| > collided with the truck."
|
| That doesn't sound like the classic lorry/bike collision where the lorry
| is turning left and the bike (on the left) is going straight across.

The police are still investigating, hence (partly) my concern about the
phrasing.

My friend only saw it when the bike was under the lorry and being scraped
along the ground - and has volunteered as a witness, in reply to a post
yesterday

The Scotsman/Evening News has a more neutral take:-

"The collision happened as the cyclist was turning left into Nicolson Street
from West Richmond Street."

which is as it should be.

pOB

[[email protected]]

On 1 May, 09:15, JNugent > wrote:
> Yesterday, I saw a rigid lorry (a brand new cement-mixer, as it happens)
> with a prominent warning to undertaking cyclists on the rear nearside
> mudflap, presumably right where a cyclist would see it. The first I've
> seen (or noticed) Good idea, I thought.

I've seen one of those. I had to get right up close to read it, mind.

Robin Johnson

[David Hansen]

On Thu, 1 May 2008 09:55:23 +0100 someone who may be "PoB"
> wrote this:-

>The police are still investigating, hence (partly) my concern about the
>phrasing.

The phrasing is important. By the time any report is completed the
mass media will have moved on to produce many more chip wrappings,
but the impression they gave that the cyclist was at fault will
remain. At the moment we don't know whether one, both or none of
those directly involved was at fault and the mass media should
reflect that in their choice of words.

>My friend only saw it when the bike was under the lorry and being scraped
>along the ground - and has volunteered as a witness, in reply to a post
>yesterday

Witnesses will need support too I imagine. Roadpeace do their best,
but the work should really be done by others who have the time and
are paid to do it. <http://www.roadpeace.org>



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

[Martin Dann]

JNugent wrote:

> Yesterday, I saw a rigid lorry (a brand new cement-mixer, as it happens)
> with a prominent warning to undertaking cyclists on the rear nearside
> mudflap, presumably right where a cyclist would see it. The first I've
> seen (or noticed) Good idea, I thought.

I often see them on HGVs round here, but on the door at the back, not
the mudflap. I think they are an excellent idea.

[Dave Larrington]

In ,
Martin Dann > tweaked the Babbage-Engine to tell us:
> JNugent wrote:
>
>> Yesterday, I saw a rigid lorry (a brand new cement-mixer, as it
>> happens) with a prominent warning to undertaking cyclists on the
>> rear nearside mudflap, presumably right where a cyclist would see
>> it. The first I've seen (or noticed) Good idea, I thought.
>
> I often see them on HGVs round here, but on the door at the back, not
> the mudflap. I think they are an excellent idea.

They've been pretty common on cement mixers for a good few years now.

--
Dave Larrington
<http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk>
Apparently Guy has now got a Brompton. I'd never have guessed.

[Marc[_2_]]

Dave Larrington wrote:
> In ,
> Martin Dann > tweaked the Babbage-Engine to tell us:
>> JNugent wrote:
>>
>>> Yesterday, I saw a rigid lorry (a brand new cement-mixer, as it
>>> happens) with a prominent warning to undertaking cyclists on the
>>> rear nearside mudflap, presumably right where a cyclist would see
>>> it. The first I've seen (or noticed) Good idea, I thought.
>> I often see them on HGVs round here, but on the door at the back, not
>> the mudflap. I think they are an excellent idea.
>
> They've been pretty common on cement mixers for a good few years now.
>
I wonder if there is a matching sign on the dashboard telling the driver
to look out for cyclists, or is only the victim that needs to be warned?

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Fri, 2 May 2008 09:47:52 +0100, "Dave Larrington"
> said in
>:

>They've been pretty common on cement mixers for a good few years now.

Whereas bendy buses have "this vehicle is 18 metres long" but
inexplicably miss off the important bit: "and it will start, stop
and turn without warning, regardless of whether you're halfway past
it or it's halfway past you, because it OWNS the road, so flee in
terror puny cyclist".

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

[Daniel Barlow]

"Just zis Guy, you know?" > writes:

> Whereas bendy buses have "this vehicle is 18 metres long"

This is great advice, but would be more usefully displayed on the
dashboard than the rear bumper.


-dan