insoluble deraileur problem?

[Jim Harvest[_2_]]

I recently bought a new Galaxy by mail order. It has proved so far to be
more unreliable than my Halfords Apollo which I chucked in a skip after
only 500 miles.

The last few weeks have been dominated by the problem of not being able
to change up from the largest rear sprocket to the second one. The chain
overshoots to a position between the 2nd and 3rd sprocket. Changing once
again and the chain overshoots to a position between the 3rd and 4th
sprockets. The smaller sprockets are fine.

I am not a mechanic, but have looked at Sheldon's website and searched
this group for information on setting up derailleurs. I have tried for
many hours on a number of occasions to repair it, but without success.
Sometimes I have solved the problem by trial and error, only for it to
recur after 10 or 20 miles, or the start of the next ride after it
worked fine the previous day.

I took the bike to my nearest mechanic this morning. This involves a
40 mile return trip plus stripping the bike down to fit my tiny car,
then reassemble it. He seemed to know what he was doing, and took his
time to set it up correctly on a workstand. I saw it engage all the
gears smoothly. I took the bike away, stripped it down again, drove home
then reassembled it. On the first test ride, the problem was still there
as described above.

After 15 hours or so of trying it is clear I don't have the skills to
repair it, and taking it to a mechanic is both expensive and a hassle
and that didn't work either. This is my fifth bike in two years, and
I've spent thousands of pounds and many hundreds of hours trying to get
a reliable bike, but so far without success. (One bike never even
reached me!)

Does anyone have any suggestions of a possible way to find a solution to
this gear problem, ie how I can get someone to do it for me and make
sure it is repaired properly?

More generally, my impression is that modern bicycles, whilst excellent
when they work, are not practical for someone without good mechanical
skills or easy access to a good mechanic. Is this something experienced
cyclists here would agree with?

I don't want to give up cycling as its an excellent pastime, but the
costs in time and money and subsequent stress make me wonder whether it
is time to cut my losses and find something else to do. I would be
grateful to hear of any suggestions as to how I can get reasonable
reliability from cycling going forward. (Fixed wheel isn't an option as
I live in a mountainous area).

Thanks

[Paul Boyd[_4_]]

On 12/07/2008 19:39, Jim Harvest said,

> He seemed to know what he was doing, and took his time to
> set it up correctly on a workstand. I saw it engage all the gears
> smoothly...
>
> ...and taking it to a mechanic is both expensive and a hassle
> and that didn't work either.

Yes it did!

> Does anyone have any suggestions of a possible way to find a solution to
> this gear problem, ie how I can get someone to do it for me and make
> sure it is repaired properly?

I would suggest that next time you take it to a mechanic, you don't
fiddle with it after he's got it working :-) Seriously, if you find
yourself unable to maintain the bike yourself then you are going to have
to rely on a mechanic. This means you need to get the bike there and
back without stripping it down. That means an external means of
carrying the bike on the car, or riding it back, of course. However you
look at it, a bike is a mechanical object that needs to be maintained by
someone.

> More generally, my impression is that modern bicycles, whilst excellent
> when they work, are not practical for someone without good mechanical
> skills or easy access to a good mechanic. Is this something experienced
> cyclists here would agree with?

Not generally, no, but all bikes need maintenance regardless of age. I
genuinely don't believe a modern bike is any more complex to maintain
than an older bike. The only major difference is in the indexing, and
that is pretty easy to set up.

> I don't want to give up cycling as its an excellent pastime, but the
> costs in time and money and subsequent stress make me wonder whether it
> is time to cut my losses and find something else to do

No, don't do that! If your only real problem is gears not working, then
give us more details and we can try to help. Your mechanic has proven
that they can be made to work so there isn't likely to be a defective
part. Really, derailleurs are quite crude devices, and there isn't much
that can go wrong with them. You say you've visited Sheldon Brown's
website, but also have a look at
http://www.parktool.com/repair/byregion.asp?catid=53 There are also
several books about bike maintenance - one by Haynes (as in car repair
manuals) called "The Bike Book" might be a good one although I haven't
seen it.

Please don't give up though!

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

[Steve C[_2_]]

Jim Harvest wrote:
> I recently bought a new Galaxy by mail order. It has proved so far to be
> more unreliable than my Halfords Apollo which I chucked in a skip after
> only 500 miles.
>
> The last few weeks have been dominated by the problem of not being able
> to change up from the largest rear sprocket to the second one. The chain
> overshoots to a position between the 2nd and 3rd sprocket. Changing once
> again and the chain overshoots to a position between the 3rd and 4th
> sprockets. The smaller sprockets are fine.
>
> I am not a mechanic, but have looked at Sheldon's website and searched
> this group for information on setting up derailleurs. I have tried for
> many hours on a number of occasions to repair it, but without success.
> Sometimes I have solved the problem by trial and error, only for it to
> recur after 10 or 20 miles, or the start of the next ride after it
> worked fine the previous day.
>
> I took the bike to my nearest mechanic this morning. This involves a 40
> mile return trip plus stripping the bike down to fit my tiny car, then
> reassemble it. He seemed to know what he was doing, and took his time to
> set it up correctly on a workstand. I saw it engage all the gears
> smoothly. I took the bike away, stripped it down again, drove home then
> reassembled it. On the first test ride, the problem was still there as
> described above.
>
> After 15 hours or so of trying it is clear I don't have the skills to
> repair it, and taking it to a mechanic is both expensive and a hassle
> and that didn't work either. This is my fifth bike in two years, and
> I've spent thousands of pounds and many hundreds of hours trying to get
> a reliable bike, but so far without success. (One bike never even
> reached me!)
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions of a possible way to find a solution to
> this gear problem, ie how I can get someone to do it for me and make
> sure it is repaired properly?
>
> More generally, my impression is that modern bicycles, whilst excellent
> when they work, are not practical for someone without good mechanical
> skills or easy access to a good mechanic. Is this something experienced
> cyclists here would agree with?
>
> I don't want to give up cycling as its an excellent pastime, but the
> costs in time and money and subsequent stress make me wonder whether it
> is time to cut my losses and find something else to do. I would be
> grateful to hear of any suggestions as to how I can get reasonable
> reliability from cycling going forward. (Fixed wheel isn't an option as
> I live in a mountainous area).
>
> Thanks
>
Have you tried the instructions at Park Tools?
http://www.parktool.com/repair/byregion.asp?catid=53

I don't think I'm mechanically minded but I can follow these
instructions and once you get the knack it is very easy to do the work.
My gears change smoothly and without issue. Learning to do it yourself
also gives you a better understanding of how the system works so when
you do need to make that emergency repair in the rain...

Steve C

[Tim Woodall]

On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 19:39:41 +0100,
Jim Harvest > wrote:
> I recently bought a new Galaxy by mail order. It has proved so far to be
> more unreliable than my Halfords Apollo which I chucked in a skip after
> only 500 miles.
>
> The last few weeks have been dominated by the problem of not being able
> to change up from the largest rear sprocket to the second one. The chain
> overshoots to a position between the 2nd and 3rd sprocket. Changing once
> again and the chain overshoots to a position between the 3rd and 4th
> sprockets. The smaller sprockets are fine.
>
There are a few possibilities.

1. Something is bent - although I'd expect your mechanic to have spotted
this.
2. Something is slipping - the cable is held at one end by a lump on the
end (in the gear lever) and clamped at the other (gear) end. Look
carefully at how the cable is clamped - if the cable looks like it's
slipped out of the clamp then it might be slipping. Also, look for a
place where some of the strands of wire are breaking - probably will be
at one end or the other - if theres a point where it's rubbing and the
strands are breaking then each strand that breaks will cause the
effective length of the cable to increase.
3. The gear levers are incompatible with the gears - this seems unlikely
if this is a shop bought bike but, for example, 8 speed levers are not
compatible with 10 speed gears or vice versa.

To set it up you should put (both) gears to their middle setting and
then adjust so the chain is running smoothly and centrally. Check that
the jockey pullies and the gear the chain is running on are all in
alignment.

Now change up and down through the gears. Everything should just work
except possibly the extreme ends. If you can't select them then you need
to adjust the H/L screws. If the chain can go too far you also need to
adjust them.

Also note that you may not be able to get smooth running if the chain is
crossed - i.e. biggest front cog to biggest rear cog or smallest to
smallest. Don't worry about that, you should never use these
combinations anyway - so long as you can select them and get back out
without anything breaking or jaming then it doesn't matter if the chain
rattles a bit.


I think your problem could also be due to excessive friction stopping
the deraileur moving down properly. A drop of oil on the pivot points
might help.


I'm sure others will have other thoughts about this. Gears usually "just
work".


Finally, where are you based? There might be someone nearby who can take
a look without the 40 mile round trip or dismantling the bike.

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/

[Phil Armstrong]

Jim Harvest > wrote:
> Does anyone have any suggestions of a possible way to find a solution to
> this gear problem, ie how I can get someone to do it for me and make
> sure it is repaired properly?

Expensive solution: have the derailleur gears replaced with a decent
hub gear.

This does have the advantage of being pretty much maintenance free
afterwards, but will cost a fair amount. You ought to be able to flog
the old gears on ebay for a reasonable sum to recoup some of that cost
though.

> More generally, my impression is that modern bicycles, whilst excellent
> when they work, are not practical for someone without good mechanical
> skills or easy access to a good mechanic. Is this something experienced
> cyclists here would agree with?

If you buy a bike from a shop, then it should be set up properly from
the start & if it's not then they are obligated to sort it out.

I would say that buying a bike mail-order if you're not mechanically
minded or already familiar with setting the things up is a bad idea,
precisely because getting things set up correctly (gears, brakes etc)
can be a bit fiddly.

Phil

--
http://www.kantaka.co.uk/ .oOo. public key: http://www.kantaka.co.uk/gpg.txt

[Jonathan Schneider]

Other people are as I speak giving you more conventional answers but I
thought I'd mention my experience with my Dawes Giro as I have before
in this newsgroup.

For a while Dawes buit some of these with _mostly_ Campagnolo
parts. After a couple of years I discovered that getting a replacement
cassette was really difficult because the hub took Miche ones which
almost nobody imports.

Now I have a proper Campag hub and cassette (story omitted) what I can
say is that the gears all work beautifully in both directions unlike
with the original cassette with which one gear (like maybe the one you
mention) would not engage from one direction. No matter how I adjusted
it.

So it's just possible you have a poor quality cassette as I did.

Jon

[Jonathan Schneider]

One more thing. I take it you know not to use opposite
combinations. That is he two combinations of large chainring with
large cog and small with small. They stress the chain the most.

Jon

[Rob Morley]

On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 19:39:41 +0100
Jim Harvest > wrote:

> I don't want to give up cycling as its an excellent pastime, but the
> costs in time and money and subsequent stress make me wonder whether
> it is time to cut my losses and find something else to do. I would be
> grateful to hear of any suggestions as to how I can get reasonable
> reliability from cycling going forward. (Fixed wheel isn't an option
> as I live in a mountainous area).
>
What Paul Boyd wrote. Maybe you should consider a folder with hub
gears - considering how much time and money it seems to be costing you,
maybe something like an Airnimal with a Rohloff would be a good
investment.

[M-gineering]

Jim Harvest wrote:
> I recently bought a new Galaxy by mail order. It has proved so far to be
> more unreliable than my Halfords Apollo which I chucked in a skip after
> only 500 miles.
>
> The last few weeks have been dominated by the problem of not being able
> to change up from the largest rear sprocket to the second one. The chain
> overshoots to a position between the 2nd and 3rd sprocket. Changing once
> again and the chain overshoots to a position between the 3rd and 4th
> sprockets. The smaller sprockets are fine.
>
> I am not a mechanic, but have looked at Sheldon's website and searched
> this group for information on setting up derailleurs. I have tried for
> many hours on a number of occasions to repair it, but without success.
> Sometimes I have solved the problem by trial and error, only for it to
> recur after 10 or 20 miles, or the start of the next ride after it
> worked fine the previous day.
>
> I took the bike to my nearest mechanic this morning. This involves a 40
> mile return trip plus stripping the bike down to fit my tiny car, then
> reassemble it. He seemed to know what he was doing, and took his time to
> set it up correctly on a workstand. I saw it engage all the gears
> smoothly. I took the bike away, stripped it down again, drove home then
> reassembled it. On the first test ride, the problem was still there as
> described above.
>
> After 15 hours or so of trying it is clear I don't have the skills to
> repair it, and taking it to a mechanic is both expensive and a hassle
> and that didn't work either. This is my fifth bike in two years, and
> I've spent thousands of pounds and many hundreds of hours trying to get
> a reliable bike, but so far without success. (One bike never even
> reached me!)
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions of a possible way to find a solution to
> this gear problem, ie how I can get someone to do it for me and make
> sure it is repaired properly?
>
> More generally, my impression is that modern bicycles, whilst excellent
> when they work, are not practical for someone without good mechanical
> skills or easy access to a good mechanic. Is this something experienced
> cyclists here would agree with?
>
> I don't want to give up cycling as its an excellent pastime, but the
> costs in time and money and subsequent stress make me wonder whether it
> is time to cut my losses and find something else to do. I would be
> grateful to hear of any suggestions as to how I can get reasonable
> reliability from cycling going forward. (Fixed wheel isn't an option as
> I live in a mountainous area).
>
> Thanks
>

Probably something minor, but the possibilities are endless.
Meanwhile, if this is a galaxy with barcons: you can switch of the
indexing by turning the wingnut on the RH shifter.

--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

[Tosspot[_2_]]

Rob Morley wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 19:39:41 +0100
> Jim Harvest > wrote:
>
>> I don't want to give up cycling as its an excellent pastime, but the
>> costs in time and money and subsequent stress make me wonder whether
>> it is time to cut my losses and find something else to do. I would be
>> grateful to hear of any suggestions as to how I can get reasonable
>> reliability from cycling going forward. (Fixed wheel isn't an option
>> as I live in a mountainous area).
>>
> What Paul Boyd wrote. Maybe you should consider a folder with hub
> gears - considering how much time and money it seems to be costing you,
> maybe something like an Airnimal with a Rohloff would be a good
> investment.

<cough> I'm riding an Airnimal with a Nexus 8. It's a very good bike.

[Rob Morley]

On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:58:17 +0100
Tosspot > wrote:

> <cough> I'm riding an Airnimal with a Nexus 8. It's a very good bike.
>
I wouldn't mind having something like that.

[Rob Morley]

On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:58:17 +0100
Tosspot > wrote:

> <cough> I'm riding an Airnimal with a Nexus 8. It's a very good bike.
>
I wouldn't mind having something like that. Of course I'd rather have
the Rohloff. :-)

[Paul - xxx[_3_]]

Jim Harvest wrote:

> After 15 hours or so of trying it is clear I don't have the skills to
> repair it, and taking it to a mechanic is both expensive and a hassle
> and that didn't work either.

Don't strip it down for transport then ... it _did_ work in the
mechanics hands.

> This is my fifth bike in two years, and
> I've spent thousands of pounds and many hundreds of hours trying to
> get a reliable bike, but so far without success.

It would seem to be you that's causing the problem. As others have
suggested a look at the Park Tools website should help.

> Does anyone have any suggestions of a possible way to find a solution
> to this gear problem, ie how I can get someone to do it for me and
> make sure it is repaired properly?

A lot would depend upon where you live.

> More generally, my impression is that modern bicycles, whilst
> excellent when they work, are not practical for someone without good
> mechanical skills or easy access to a good mechanic. Is this
> something experienced cyclists here would agree with?

Not at all. Bicycles are the simplest forms of transport available,
easy to work on, easy to use and easy to maintain, generally. You
could say that about cars, multi-plexing electronis and engine ecu's,
but bikes haven't evolved quite that far, for mass use, yet. ;)

--
Paul - xxx

'96/'97 Landrover Discovery 300 Tdi 'Big and Butch'
Dyna Tech Cro-Mo comp "When I feel fit enough'

[Tosspot[_2_]]

Rob Morley wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:58:17 +0100
> Tosspot > wrote:
>
>> <cough> I'm riding an Airnimal with a Nexus 8. It's a very good bike.
>>
> I wouldn't mind having something like that. Of course I'd rather have
> the Rohloff. :-)

That's because Sir has taste. While i'm here, I give you the "Airnimal
Joey".

I was looking for a 2nd bike that was rideable, foldable and cheap. My
criteria was a 'jack-knife' fold, rack, fenders, lights, hub gears; I
was less interested in speed of fold and size of fold, in this respect I
wanted it sort of small and not too slow, I knew what I wanted so shut
up the rest of you.

I tried the Brompton, twitchy, not enough gears, and the Dog awful
brakes; the Dahon, twitchy, wrong fold; the Birdy[1], was actually fine,
but when I said I wanted a rack, lights and fenders, the price went
ballistic. The Pacy was interesting, as was the Airnimal, both
untested, but the Airnimal was getting my attention. Role on Spezi and
a chance to ride one (allbeit with deraileur), and it rides fine!

Cut to Bikefix[2] in London and for 800 squids I have one. The ride is
excellent, the telescopic seat tube takes out the road shocks and the
bike feels agile without being twitchy. The flat bars are a tad wide
for traffic work, but a pipe cutter (a cm will do it) will sort that
out. I flipped the extension to get a bit more of a head down ride,
again, just my preference. The Nexus 8 is perfetly suited to this kind
of bike, some might find it a bit overgeared, but if you're a cyclist
wou'll be fine. The tyres are great, giving huge grip and again
perfectly suited. Bar grips are comfortable. It really is a bit of a
loon, it's actually fun to ride!

The fold requires the front wheel to be removed (unhook the front 'V'
brake), so for commuting, this is not really so good, but my use was to
ride and store, so this isn't an issue. I've had the bike apart, all
the threads were greased, everything was straight, the brakes adjusted
straight from the box. Airnimals attention to detail in assembling the
bike should put a lot of other manufacturers to shame.

The bad points, there has to be some. The fold/design takes a lot of
chain, so they use an Alivio deraileur as a chain tensioner. This looks
frankly aweful. I don't like twist grips, but the Nexus-8 is compatible
with the Shimano SL-S500 Alfine rapidfire, so this will get changed very
soon. That's it, the rest is perfect.

http://www.airnimal.com/Joey.php

[1] I have no idea why, but these bikes really do ride very well.
[2] These people are idiots, don't ever go there.

[citizen142]

I assume that these are index gears.

Others have mentioned faulty cassettes etc. This is what I would do to prove
the point.

Temporarily remove the cable at the gears end and tape it up to the frame
for the time being. Install a good old fashioned friction lever to the down
tube and connect up. If all the gears engage by this method then there is
nothing at all wrong with the cassette, chain, alignment etc. and it then is
obvious that the indexing is all wrong.

You say you have recently bought this bike by mail order - then they are
liable to get it into a serviceable mode (goods must be fit for the
purpose). Throw it back at them and ignore above!

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 19:39:41 +0100, Jim Harvest
> said in
>:

>After 15 hours or so of trying it is clear I don't have the skills to
>repair it, and taking it to a mechanic is both expensive and a hassle
>and that didn't work either. This is my fifth bike in two years, and
>I've spent thousands of pounds and many hundreds of hours trying to get
>a reliable bike, but so far without success. (One bike never even
>reached me!)

Hub gears or acquisition of the elusive Knack. Adjusting
derailleurs is a doddle once you know how. I downloaded the Deore
LX instructions from Shimano's website, read them and have applied
the same technique to every bike since, give or take working out
whether they are pull-up or pull-down.

Place bike on workstand, chain on middle ring and second-smallest
sprocket, adjust barrel and "pedal" until chain just ticks on the
third smallest sprocket, back off one click or until the ticking
stops, run up and down the gears, if it's not perfect then back off
one more click. Getting the bike on and off the stand takes me
longer than the adjustment these days.

If that doesn't work it's usually because the mech or hanger is
bent. More often the hanger.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

[Roos Eisma]

Tosspot > writes:

>The bad points, there has to be some. The fold/design takes a lot of
>chain, so they use an Alivio deraileur as a chain tensioner. This looks
>frankly aweful. I don't like twist grips, but the Nexus-8 is compatible
>with the Shimano SL-S500 Alfine rapidfire, so this will get changed very
>soon. That's it, the rest is perfect.

I have just replaced the twist grip on my Nexus-8 bike with the "Shimano
Nexus ST-8S20 STI 8 Speed Trigger Shifter" which is specifically made for
the Nexus 8 speed hubs. Works fine so far. Just under £30 from Wiggle, and
you'll need new grips to replace the short one on the side of the twist
grip (well, you need only one but they seem to only sell them in pairs)

Roos

[Rob Morley]

On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 11:43:04 +0100
"Citizen142" > wrote:

> I assume that these are index gears.
>
> Others have mentioned faulty cassettes etc. This is what I would do
> to prove the point.
>
> Temporarily remove the cable at the gears end and tape it up to the
> frame for the time being. Install a good old fashioned friction lever
> to the down tube and connect up. If all the gears engage by this
> method then there is nothing at all wrong with the cassette, chain,
> alignment etc. and it then is obvious that the indexing is all wrong.

Theirs absolutely no need to do that, you can just pull the cable with
the bike in a workstand. It shouldn't need testing under load because
all the parts are nearly new, although you could use the cable-pulling
technique while riding if you really wanted.
>
> You say you have recently bought this bike by mail order - then they
> are liable to get it into a serviceable mode (goods must be fit for
> the purpose). Throw it back at them and ignore above!
>
But he's already messed with it himself and taken it to a third-party
mechanic (who apparently got it working anyway) - it would be
unreasonable to expect the supplier to deal with it after that.

[Tosspot[_2_]]

Roos Eisma wrote:
> Tosspot > writes:
>
>> The bad points, there has to be some. The fold/design takes a lot of
>> chain, so they use an Alivio deraileur as a chain tensioner. This looks
>> frankly aweful. I don't like twist grips, but the Nexus-8 is compatible
>> with the Shimano SL-S500 Alfine rapidfire, so this will get changed very
>> soon. That's it, the rest is perfect.
>
> I have just replaced the twist grip on my Nexus-8 bike with the "Shimano
> Nexus ST-8S20 STI 8 Speed Trigger Shifter" which is specifically made for
> the Nexus 8 speed hubs. Works fine so far. Just under £30 from Wiggle, and
> you'll need new grips to replace the short one on the side of the twist
> grip (well, you need only one but they seem to only sell them in pairs)

Tempted, but as a victim of fashion I'd have to change the other brake
lever as well, and since the SL-500 is only 25 squids I'd go the Alfine
route. When I can find one in stock that is.

[Nick[_4_]]

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:

>
> If that doesn't work it's usually because the mech or hanger is
> bent. More often the hanger.
>

Yep, that's what I have found when I can't get it to index correctly
over the entire range.