Tamdem Recommendations

[Neil Smith]

Dear All,
I am looking for a cheap and cheerful tandem. Intially it should be able to
take a 7 year old at the back nad an adult. Any suggestions?
Thanks
Neil

[Just zis Guy, you know?[_2_]]

On Mon, 6 Oct 2008 21:12:34 +0100, "Neil Smith"
> said in
>:

>I am looking for a cheap and cheerful tandem. Intially it should be able to
>take a 7 year old at the back nad an adult. Any suggestions?

Second-hand ads in the Tandem Club journal
(http://www.tandem-club.org.uk)

And for new tandems, I think Thorn are good value, the Orbit used to
be cheap as well.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

[Tim Hall]

On Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:27:57 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
> wrote:

>On Mon, 6 Oct 2008 21:12:34 +0100, "Neil Smith"
> said in
>:
>
>>I am looking for a cheap and cheerful tandem. Intially it should be able to
>>take a 7 year old at the back nad an adult. Any suggestions?
>
>Second-hand ads in the Tandem Club journal
>(http://www.tandem-club.org.uk)
>
>And for new tandems, I think Thorn are good value, the Orbit used to
>be cheap as well.
>
Amongst the Barracudas and Vikings on Ebay there's a fair few second
hand bagains. I recently pointed a friend of friend at a Thorn
Voyager (the budget end of their range) with a buy it now of just over
two hundred quid. And even better the vendor was flying out of
Gatwick last weekend so brought it up FOC from the west country (the
buyer lives a stone's throw from Gatwick).

Anyway, where was I? There's a Dawes Galaxy twin on Ebay starting at
£500 which is a bit ambitious to put it politely. There's a Longstaff
tandem trike which I really fancy but will get me in life threatening
trouble if I buy it.

The trouble with 7 year olds is that they tend to grow. You (OP not
Guy) might be better getting a standard(ish) sized tandem and fitting
kiddie cranks then crank shorteners as the 7 year old gets older.

What sort of budget do you have in mind?

--
Tim

[Just zis Guy, you know?[_2_]]

On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 00:11:49 +0100, Tim Hall
> said in
>:

>The trouble with 7 year olds is that they tend to grow. You (OP not
>Guy) might be better getting a standard(ish) sized tandem and fitting
>kiddie cranks then crank shorteners as the 7 year old gets older.

That's where the orbit is good, it has a lot of adjustment. I have
a Bike Friday family tandem, which will fit virtually any size in
either position. But that fails the test of cheap by about three
grand :-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

[Myra in Cambridge]

We are the proud owners of a Thorn Voyager childback tandem, see

http://simon.trinhall.cam.ac.uk/swmpics/2008/2008-09-06-Tandem/

It wasn't "cheap and cheerful"; by the time we got it all kitted out
the way we wanted to (including a custom wheel build with my own old
Schmidt hub dynamo in front) it was near £1000. However we expect to
get many years' use out of it. My daughter is now 5 and we have a 2
year old who will ride it later. Also, we got it through Cyclescheme
which made it tax-free.

One thing you must watch when buying a tandem that you intend to put a
kid on the back of is the crank length. See the picture here to see
the sort of absurb riding position your kids gets if you have full-
length 170mm cranks on the back

http://www.camcycle.org.uk/newsletters/51/images/tandem-childback.jpg

Compare that with this pic of me and my daughter:

http://simon.trinhall.cam.ac.uk/thumbnails/swmpics/2008/2008-09-06-Tandem/_MG_0613.2.jpg

We got the Thorn double-drilled (115 and 140mm) cranks for the back of
our tandem. I feel it is essential to do something to provide sensible
length cranks for kids. You can get cheap cranks driller and
shortened, you can buy double drilled cranks, or you can get bolt-on
crank shorteners.

-Myra

[bugbear]

Myra in Cambridge wrote:
> We are the proud owners of a Thorn Voyager childback tandem, see
> Also, we got it through Cyclescheme
> which made it tax-free.

It's your commute bike? Wow.

BugBear

[Sam Salt]

Neil Smith wrote:
> Dear All,
> I am looking for a cheap and cheerful tandem. Intially it should be able to
> take a 7 year old at the back nad an adult. Any suggestions?
> Thanks
> Neil

If you head over to the Tandem Club site there are usually a few tandems
for sale plus the forum will be able to answer any other queries that
you may have.

You don't have to join ( £10 per year per team ) to use the forum or the
For Sale section.

http://tinyurl.com/4vhw9s


Sam Salt

[Myra in Cambridge]

bugbear wrote:
> It's your commute bike? Wow.

It may seem strange, but yes it's my commute bike. Here's a pic of it
in full commute mode, with trailer on back.

http://simon.trinhall.cam.ac.uk/thumbnails/swmpics/2008/2008-09-07-Tandem/_MG_0643.2.jpg

I start out in the mornings at home with my daughter as my stoker and
son in the trailer. On to school, where I drop off my daugher. Then on
the child minder, where I drop off my son. Then on to work, pedalling
the tandem by myself, with an empty trailer. And then the reverse on
the way home.

-Myra

[Clive George]

"Sam Salt" > wrote in message
...
> Neil Smith wrote:
>> Dear All,
>> I am looking for a cheap and cheerful tandem. Intially it should be able
>> to take a 7 year old at the back nad an adult. Any suggestions?
>> Thanks
>> Neil
>
> If you head over to the Tandem Club site there are usually a few tandems
> for sale plus the forum will be able to answer any other queries that you
> may have.

I reckon the ones for sale over there tend to be overpriced. I occasionally
make myself unpopular by pointing this out. Thing is, tandems really have
come on quite a lot in recent years, so recent ones are quite a lot stiffer
and stronger (both the frame and the wheels). I've seen 500 quid asked for a
super galaxy twin, which is > 10 years old, 2 generations old frame of a not
terribly robust design to start with. The more recent dawes tandems were
close to that price new, much better frames, just a nominally lower label.

cheers,
clive

[Just zis Guy, you know?[_2_]]

On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 10:25:16 +0100, bugbear
> said in
>:

>It's your commute bike? Wow.

We used a Me'n'U2 as a commute bike for a while, it's not /that/ odd
- though of course once you've dropped the kids off there is always
some wag telling you that you've lost the stoker...

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

[Just zis Guy, you know?[_2_]]

On Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:10:14 +0100, "Clive George"
> said in
>:

>I reckon the ones for sale over there tend to be overpriced. I occasionally
>make myself unpopular by pointing this out. Thing is, tandems really have
>come on quite a lot in recent years, so recent ones are quite a lot stiffer
>and stronger (both the frame and the wheels). I've seen 500 quid asked for a
>super galaxy twin, which is > 10 years old, 2 generations old frame of a not
>terribly robust design to start with. The more recent dawes tandems were
>close to that price new, much better frames, just a nominally lower label.

I call it the eBay effect - people paying near-new prices for things
that, if you know what you are looking at, you would either not
touch at all or at most pay a few quid for. People pay absurd
prices for total crap on eBay, and that distorts the market.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

[Peter Clinch]

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:10:14 +0100, "Clive George"
> > said in
> >:
>
>> I reckon the ones for sale over there tend to be overpriced. I occasionally
>> make myself unpopular by pointing this out. Thing is, tandems really have
>> come on quite a lot in recent years, so recent ones are quite a lot stiffer
>> and stronger (both the frame and the wheels). I've seen 500 quid asked for a
>> super galaxy twin, which is > 10 years old, 2 generations old frame of a not
>> terribly robust design to start with. The more recent dawes tandems were
>> close to that price new, much better frames, just a nominally lower label.
>
> I call it the eBay effect - people paying near-new prices for things
> that, if you know what you are looking at, you would either not
> touch at all or at most pay a few quid for. People pay absurd
> prices for total crap on eBay, and that distorts the market.

There is also the effect that if you've paid, say, a grand for
something, not used it much and it's still pretty much as good as when
you bought it, then it "should" still be worth most of what you paid for
it, and that affects the price asked.

That might stand up if the product hasn't moved on, but it often has.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

[Neil Smith]

What frame size at rear would suit a 7 year and as they tend to grow would
this size be suitable for adults
"Neil Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Dear All,
> I am looking for a cheap and cheerful tandem. Intially it should be able
> to take a 7 year old at the back nad an adult. Any suggestions?
> Thanks
> Neil
>

[Alan Braggins]

In article >, Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
>I call it the eBay effect - people paying near-new prices for things
>that, if you know what you are looking at, you would either not
>touch at all or at most pay a few quid for. People pay absurd
>prices for total crap on eBay, and that distorts the market.

I've seen people pay more for a poor condition crap mountain bike
at a police auction than Halfords asked for the same bike new.
eBay means that if there's two people online anywhere in the country
prepared to make the same mistake at once, it will happen :-)

[Rob Morley]

On Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:13:59 +0100
"Neil Smith" > wrote:

> What frame size at rear would suit a 7 year and as they tend to grow
> would this size be suitable for adults
>
As you don"t need to worry about stand-over height for stokers just get
one where they can reach the pedals with sensibly sized cranks (or
crank shorteners) and the seat right down. Some tandems come with a
suspension rear seatpost - swapping it for a plain one will let
you lower the saddle several inches. If you want it to suit an
adult too then reach is the main concern, as you can just fit an extra
long seatpost to get the height. Remember that the stoker stem
extends backwards not forwards, so the rear top tube really needs to be
rather long to avoid a cramped position. Accommodate the child by using
an adjustable stoker stem, or bullhorn bars that can be flipped back or
forwards to vary the reach.

[Naqerj]

Neil Smith wrote:
> Dear All,
> I am looking for a cheap and cheerful tandem. Intially it should be able to
> take a 7 year old at the back nad an adult. Any suggestions?

I have a Motobecane Inter Club LB tandem that's looking for a new home,
frame size is 22"/20.5". I used to use it with one of my sons on the
back but I can't remember how old he was at the time. I'm looking for
around UKP100 for it ... is that cheap and cheerful enough?

The Thorn crank shorteners that used to be on it are still around the
house somewhere...

--
Andrew

[Myra in Cambridge]

Rob Morley wrote:
> Accommodate the child by using
> an adjustable stoker stem, or bullhorn bars that can be flipped back or
> forwards to vary the reach.

The Thorn stoker bars that came with our tandem were way too wide for
my daughter. We got some cheap basic time trial bars (Profile airwing
base bar, 40cm wide) and installed them backwards and upside down to
make a very nice setup for my daughter. The Thorn "adjustable stem
extension" and super-short stem provides a long, adjustable stem for
her. (Now it's at max extension but as she grows we'll adjust it.)

-Myra

[Rob Morley]

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 01:41:50 -0700 (PDT)
Myra in Cambridge > wrote:

> Rob Morley wrote:
> > Accommodate the child by using
> > an adjustable stoker stem, or bullhorn bars that can be flipped
> > back or forwards to vary the reach.
>
> The Thorn stoker bars that came with our tandem were way too wide for
> my daughter.

That's because they're designed to be flipped, so need to clear the
captain's hips/thighs. They provide quite a lot of adjustment and
extra reach at the cost of sticking out half a mile. Of course you
could reduce the effective width by fitting bar ends pointing inwards.

[Myra in Cambridge]

Rob Morley wrote:
> > The Thorn stoker bars that came with our tandem were way too wide for
> > my daughter.
>
> That's because they're designed to be flipped, so need to clear the
> captain's hips/thighs.

Yeah, I did figure that one out, having had some experience on the
back of a full-sized tandem.

> Of course you
> could reduce the effective width by fitting bar ends pointing inwards.

I didn't think of fitting bars ends pointing inwards to the stoker
bars, but I did toy for awhile with the idea of fitting bar ends
pointing back toward my daughter, onto a straight MTB bar. In the end
I decided that a flipped time trial bar would provide the neatest
setup.

I'm surprised that SJS Cycles doesn't recommend narrow time trial bars
(they sell them) as stoker bars for kids. They are much more
appropriate than the flipped Thorn stoker bars that they do recommend.

-Myra

[Rob Morley]

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 07:04:35 -0700 (PDT)
Myra in Cambridge > wrote:

> I didn't think of fitting bars ends pointing inwards to the stoker
> bars, but I did toy for awhile with the idea of fitting bar ends
> pointing back toward my daughter, onto a straight MTB bar. In the end
> I decided that a flipped time trial bar would provide the neatest
> setup.

I think you're right. To my mind straight bars with bar ends are a
nicer solution for an adult stoker, because they're width adjustable.
>
> I'm surprised that SJS Cycles doesn't recommend narrow time trial bars
> (they sell them) as stoker bars for kids. They are much more
> appropriate than the flipped Thorn stoker bars that they do recommend.
>
Maybe they have a load to shift. :-)

[Neil Smith]

At the moment the 7 year olds inside leg measurement is 20" wbich of course
will change. Would a rear frame size of 16" work. From this thread the bars
are a consideration.
"Neil Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Dear All,
> I am looking for a cheap and cheerful tandem. Intially it should be able
> to take a 7 year old at the back nad an adult. Any suggestions?
> Thanks
> Neil
>

[Rob Morley]

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 16:21:50 +0100
"Neil Smith" > wrote:

> At the moment the 7 year olds inside leg measurement is 20" wbich of
> course will change. Would a rear frame size of 16" work. From this
> thread the bars are a consideration.
>

20" inside leg means about 22" saddle to pedal - if you allow 3" for
frame to saddle[1], 5" for frame to pedal (approx with 140mm cranks[2])
you're looking at around a 14" frame.


[1] That's about standard for a regular saddle on a micro adjust
seat post - you can get it a bit lower by using a plain post with
separate clamp and inverting the clamp.

[2] About the shortest you can get in a reasonable quality, I think,
although you can get them as short as 110mm which would give an extra
inch to play with.

[Just zis Guy, you know?[_2_]]

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 07:04:35 -0700 (PDT), Myra in Cambridge
> said in
>:

>I'm surprised that SJS Cycles doesn't recommend narrow time trial bars
>(they sell them) as stoker bars for kids. They are much more
>appropriate than the flipped Thorn stoker bars that they do recommend.

Not sure, in our case the bars seemed to wrap partway round, making
the rearmost stoker feel more secure, but who knows.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

[Myra in Cambridge]

Rob Morley wrote:
> 20" inside leg means about 22" saddle to pedal - if you allow 3" for
> frame to saddle[1], 5" for frame to pedal (approx with 140mm cranks[2])
> you're looking at around a 14" frame.
>
> [1] That's about standard for a regular saddle on a micro adjust
> seat post - you can get it a bit lower by using a plain post with
> separate clamp and inverting the clamp.
>
> [2] About the shortest you can get in a reasonable quality, I think,
> although you can get them as short as 110mm which would give an extra
> inch to play with.

Since we're talking about the back of a tandem, here, choices of
cranks are even more limited. I think that double drilled cranks as
made by SJS Cycles, with holes at 115mm and 140mm are the way to go
here, to accomodate a growing child. There's a custom crank maker in
Germany, Heiko Brechtel, of customcranks.de, who can make double
drilled cranks in any length you want. His prices are similar to the
SJSC cranks.

To Guy -- our Thorn stoker bars didn't wrap around at all, so no loss
with replacing them for time trial bars. Now with the longer stem, my
daughter can comfortably put her hands on the flat parts either side
of the stem and get her hands right behind my legs. This will help
keep the wind off them and should help keep her warm in the winter.

-Myra

[Mark McNeill]

Response to Myra in Cambridge >:

> There's a custom crank maker in
> Germany, Heiko Brechtel, of customcranks.de, who can make double
> drilled cranks in any length you want.

Wooo! Range of colours! I've been meaning to shorten the cranks on
the trike, but I'd have to change the BB as well thobut.


--
Mark, UK

[Phil Cook]

Mark McNeill wrote:

>Response to Myra in Cambridge >:
>
>> There's a custom crank maker in
>> Germany, Heiko Brechtel, of customcranks.de, who can make double
>> drilled cranks in any length you want.
>
>Wooo! Range of colours! I've been meaning to shorten the cranks on
>the trike, but I'd have to change the BB as well thobut.

<mirth>
http://customcranks.de/galleries/bikegallery/kettler/2008-01-02_14-45-29.jpg
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

[judith]

On Thu, 9 Oct 2008 01:37:51 -0700 (PDT), Myra in Cambridge
> wrote:

<snip>

>-Myra


Hi Myra - I see Tony is back - did you get a chance to ask him if he
had posted under different names?

[Rob Morley]

On Thu, 9 Oct 2008 01:37:51 -0700 (PDT)
Myra in Cambridge > wrote:

> Rob Morley wrote:
> > 20" inside leg means about 22" saddle to pedal - if you allow 3" for
> > frame to saddle[1], 5" for frame to pedal (approx with 140mm
> > cranks[2]) you're looking at around a 14" frame.
> >
> > [1] That's about standard for a regular saddle on a micro adjust
> > seat post - you can get it a bit lower by using a plain post with
> > separate clamp and inverting the clamp.
> >
> > [2] About the shortest you can get in a reasonable quality, I
> > think, although you can get them as short as 110mm which would give
> > an extra inch to play with.
>
> Since we're talking about the back of a tandem, here, choices of
> cranks are even more limited.

Not necessarily - you can run whatever chainset you want at the back,
fitted the wrong way around so it drives the crossover on the front and
the front chainset drives the rear wheel.

> I think that double drilled cranks as
> made by SJS Cycles, with holes at 115mm and 140mm are the way to go
> here, to accomodate a growing child.

They are useful for this sort of application. Of course you can always
get a cheap steel chainset and cut and weld it - heavy and ugly but
cheap and effective. If you do that you can even get the threads the
right way around by swapping them over.

[_[_2_]]

On Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:55:35 +0100, Rob Morley wrote:

> On Thu, 9 Oct 2008 01:37:51 -0700 (PDT)
> Myra in Cambridge > wrote:
>
>> Rob Morley wrote:
>>> 20" inside leg means about 22" saddle to pedal - if you allow 3" for
>>> frame to saddle[1], 5" for frame to pedal (approx with 140mm
>>> cranks[2]) you're looking at around a 14" frame.
>>>
>>> [1] That's about standard for a regular saddle on a micro adjust
>>> seat post - you can get it a bit lower by using a plain post with
>>> separate clamp and inverting the clamp.
>>>
>>> [2] About the shortest you can get in a reasonable quality, I
>>> think, although you can get them as short as 110mm which would give
>>> an extra inch to play with.
>>
>> Since we're talking about the back of a tandem, here, choices of
>> cranks are even more limited.
>
> Not necessarily - you can run whatever chainset you want at the back,
> fitted the wrong way around so it drives the crossover on the front and
> the front chainset drives the rear wheel.

Risk of pedals unscrewing...

[Clive George]

"_" > wrote in message
...

>> Not necessarily - you can run whatever chainset you want at the back,
>> fitted the wrong way around so it drives the crossover on the front and
>> the front chainset drives the rear wheel.
>
> Risk of pedals unscrewing...

Do it up tight. Loctite or abusing the threads could help too - the front
crankset on our MTB tandem is backwards and doesn't suffer pedals falling
out.

[pete whelan]

Clive George wrote:
> "_" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>> Not necessarily - you can run whatever chainset you want at the back,
>>> fitted the wrong way around so it drives the crossover on the front and
>>> the front chainset drives the rear wheel.
>> Risk of pedals unscrewing...
>
> Do it up tight. Loctite or abusing the threads could help too - the front
> crankset on our MTB tandem is backwards and doesn't suffer pedals falling
> out.
>
>
or go for Helicoil inserts

[Rob Morley]

On Thu, 09 Oct 2008 16:01:15 GMT
_ > wrote:

> On Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:55:35 +0100, Rob Morley wrote:

> > Not necessarily - you can run whatever chainset you want at the
> > back, fitted the wrong way around so it drives the crossover on the
> > front and the front chainset drives the rear wheel.
>
> Risk of pedals unscrewing...

That's what Loctite is for. :-) Or there are various other ways of
making sure they don't come off (ever again). Remember we're talking
smallish child here, so the load won't be great anyway.