Bike Rental in Paris

[Red Cloud]

http://us.franceguide.com/article.html?NodeID=1&EditoID=88863

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
Red Cloud > writes:
>
> http://us.franceguide.com/article.html?NodeID=1&EditoID=88863

What else is new?

Anyways, bikes -- even /good/ bikes, are so relatively
inexpensive and available, I really don't see any need
to rent them out. I myself am up to my armpits in
good, servicable bikes that people threw away or
just gave to me.

Bike rental schemes are just politics, for certain
politicians to be "seen" to be Greenishly/
sustainabilityishly/environmentallyishly inclined.
Smoke & mirrors. It's just a bunch of razmattazz.
Those of us who will ride, will own our own bikes,
thank you very much.

If politicians really cared about the furtherance
of cycling as a viable transportational option,
they'd endorse pedicab jitneys, with a laissez-faire
attitude about them.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[John Kane]

On Nov 9, 2:42*am, (Tom Keats) wrote:
> In article >,
> * * * * Red Cloud > writes:
>
>
>
> > *http://us.franceguide.com/article.html?NodeID=1&EditoID=88863
>
> What else is new?
>
> Anyways, bikes -- even /good/ bikes, are so relatively
> inexpensive and available, I really don't see any need
> to rent them out. *I myself am up to my armpits in
> good, servicable bikes that people threw away or
> just gave to me.

Do you always take your bike when you go to Paris?
Lot's of people own cars yet taxicabs still exist.
There are likely lots of reasons why people would rent a bicycle. For
Parisiens it could be a storage problem -- Paris has a high apartment
occupancy rate vs detached houses. Visitors will rent bikes.

John Kane Kingston ON Canada

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
John Kane > writes:
> On Nov 9, 2:42*am, (Tom Keats) wrote:
>> In article >,
>> * * * * Red Cloud > writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> > *http://us.franceguide.com/article.html?NodeID=1&EditoID=88863
>>
>> What else is new?
>>
>> Anyways, bikes -- even /good/ bikes, are so relatively
>> inexpensive and available, I really don't see any need
>> to rent them out. *I myself am up to my armpits in
>> good, servicable bikes that people threw away or
>> just gave to me.
> Do you always take your bike when you go to Paris?

Yes.

My feet get a little wet, but oh well.

My main bike is as familiar to me as I am to it.
If anyone else rode it, something would no doubt break
under the stress of somebody else's "touch."

> Lot's of people own cars yet taxicabs still exist.
> There are likely lots of reasons why people would rent a bicycle. For
> Parisiens it could be a storage problem -- Paris has a high apartment
> occupancy rate vs detached houses. Visitors will rent bikes.

Visitors will buy maps, seek out bilingual companions,
and avoid asking directions en francais.

I'm sure there's plenty of room for privately owned bicycles
in Paris. Even more so than privately owned motor vehicles.
Bicycles don't take up a lot of space. Certainly not as
much space as a Citroen.

Sure, bike rental schemes like Velib "look" good. At least,
they make some politicians look good to some people.

Here in Vancouver BC we had a bike /trailer/ rental scheme.
Y'know what happened? They're now looking for where all
the trailers went, and would be most grateful for their return.
I suspect homeless bottle collectors/dumpster divers now
have 'em. In which case, they'd be putting them to better use
than anybody else.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Red Cloud]

On Nov 9, 10:04 am, John Kane > wrote:
> On Nov 9, 2:42 am, (Tom Keats) wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > Red Cloud > writes:
>
> > > http://us.franceguide.com/article.html?NodeID=1&EditoID=88863
>
> > What else is new?
>
> > Anyways, bikes -- even /good/ bikes, are so relatively
> > inexpensive and available, I really don't see any need
> > to rent them out. I myself am up to my armpits in
> > good, servicable bikes that people threw away or
> > just gave to me.
>
> Do you always take your bike when you go to Paris?
> Lot's of people own cars yet taxicabs still exist.
> There are likely lots of reasons why people would rent a bicycle. For
> Parisiens it could be a storage problem -- Paris has a high apartment
> occupancy rate vs detached houses. Visitors will rent bikes.
>
> John Kane Kingston ON Canada


Oh you bet mostly visitor will rent bikes. Paris is the first
city to adopt bike rental system. Two german citie followed it. We
will see more European cities then

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
Red Cloud > writes:
> On Nov 9, 10:04 am, John Kane > wrote:
>> On Nov 9, 2:42 am, (Tom Keats) wrote:
>>
>> > In article >,
>> > Red Cloud > writes:
>>
>> > > http://us.franceguide.com/article.html?NodeID=1&EditoID=88863
>>
>> > What else is new?
>>
>> > Anyways, bikes -- even /good/ bikes, are so relatively
>> > inexpensive and available, I really don't see any need
>> > to rent them out. I myself am up to my armpits in
>> > good, servicable bikes that people threw away or
>> > just gave to me.
>>
>> Do you always take your bike when you go to Paris?
>> Lot's of people own cars yet taxicabs still exist.
>> There are likely lots of reasons why people would rent a bicycle. For
>> Parisiens it could be a storage problem -- Paris has a high apartment
>> occupancy rate vs detached houses. Visitors will rent bikes.
>>
>> John Kane Kingston ON Canada
>
>
> Oh you bet mostly visitor will rent bikes. Paris is the first
> city to adopt bike rental system.

Oh, bulll****:

http://www.trekdev.lbs.ubc.ca/programs/cycling/index.html

> Two german citie followed it. We
> will see more European cities then

We'll also hear a lot of political yack
about "alternative" energy sources.

Lots of talk, not so much walk.


--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article >,
(Tom Keats) wrote:

> In article
> >,
> Red Cloud > writes:
> > On Nov 9, 10:04 am, John Kane > wrote:
> >> On Nov 9, 2:42 am, (Tom Keats) wrote:
> >>
> >> > In article
> >> > >,
> >> > Red Cloud > writes:
> >>
> >> > > http://us.franceguide.com/article.html?NodeID=1&EditoID=88863
> >>
> >> > What else is new?
> >>
> >> > Anyways, bikes -- even /good/ bikes, are so relatively
> >> > inexpensive and available, I really don't see any need
> >> > to rent them out. I myself am up to my armpits in
> >> > good, servicable bikes that people threw away or
> >> > just gave to me.
> >>
> >> Do you always take your bike when you go to Paris?
> >> Lot's of people own cars yet taxicabs still exist.
> >> There are likely lots of reasons why people would rent a bicycle. For
> >> Parisiens it could be a storage problem -- Paris has a high apartment
> >> occupancy rate vs detached houses. Visitors will rent bikes.
> >>
> >> John Kane Kingston ON Canada
> >
> >
> > Oh you bet mostly visitor will rent bikes. Paris is the first
> > city to adopt bike rental system.
>
> Oh, bulll****:
>
> http://www.trekdev.lbs.ubc.ca/programs/cycling/index.html
>
> > Two german citie followed it. We
> > will see more European cities then
>
> We'll also hear a lot of political yack
> about "alternative" energy sources.
>
> Lots of talk, not so much walk.

I have a friend whose work often consists of assessing the viability of
alternative or green power production facilities.

The short version is this: the problems are hard, green systems often
show interesting numbers but do awful things like generate really
variable levels of power, or worse yet, sometimes even generate power
almost countercyclically to demand (ie they generate the least power
when demand is highest). Plus, astoundingly enough, you can still
encounter high levels of NIMBY-ism.

Most power companies would love to get a nice, friendly form of power
online that met their generation needs and didn't entangle them in years
of gruesome hearings and protests. There is no such source.

Power generation and transmission is one of those things that a small
group of fools is quite willing to oppose right up to the point of
self-induced rolling blackouts.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[Tom Keats]

In article ]>,
Ryan Cousineau > writes:
> In article >,
> (Tom Keats) wrote:
>
>> In article
>> >,
>> Red Cloud > writes:
>> > On Nov 9, 10:04 am, John Kane > wrote:
>> >> On Nov 9, 2:42 am, (Tom Keats) wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > In article
>> >> > >,
>> >> > Red Cloud > writes:
>> >>
>> >> > > http://us.franceguide.com/article.html?NodeID=1&EditoID=88863
>> >>
>> >> > What else is new?
>> >>
>> >> > Anyways, bikes -- even /good/ bikes, are so relatively
>> >> > inexpensive and available, I really don't see any need
>> >> > to rent them out. I myself am up to my armpits in
>> >> > good, servicable bikes that people threw away or
>> >> > just gave to me.
>> >>
>> >> Do you always take your bike when you go to Paris?
>> >> Lot's of people own cars yet taxicabs still exist.
>> >> There are likely lots of reasons why people would rent a bicycle. For
>> >> Parisiens it could be a storage problem -- Paris has a high apartment
>> >> occupancy rate vs detached houses. Visitors will rent bikes.
>> >>
>> >> John Kane Kingston ON Canada
>> >
>> >
>> > Oh you bet mostly visitor will rent bikes. Paris is the first
>> > city to adopt bike rental system.
>>
>> Oh, bulll****:
>>
>> http://www.trekdev.lbs.ubc.ca/programs/cycling/index.html
>>
>> > Two german citie followed it. We
>> > will see more European cities then
>>
>> We'll also hear a lot of political yack
>> about "alternative" energy sources.
>>
>> Lots of talk, not so much walk.
>
> I have a friend whose work often consists of assessing the viability of
> alternative or green power production facilities.
>
> The short version is this: the problems are hard, green systems often
> show interesting numbers but do awful things like generate really
> variable levels of power, or worse yet, sometimes even generate power
> almost countercyclically to demand (ie they generate the least power
> when demand is highest). Plus, astoundingly enough, you can still
> encounter high levels of NIMBY-ism.
>
> Most power companies would love to get a nice, friendly form of power
> online that met their generation needs and didn't entangle them in years
> of gruesome hearings and protests. There is no such source.
>
> Power generation and transmission is one of those things that a small
> group of fools is quite willing to oppose right up to the point of
> self-induced rolling blackouts.

Heh. I'm reminded of the disputed "run-of-river" hydroelectric
proposals. The current provincial (and I mean /provincial/)
gov't would just love to stick their Public-Private-Partnership
thumb into that pie, and pull out a plum or two, and remark
about what good boys they are.

WAC Bennett must be doing rpms in his grave.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Red Cloud]

On Nov 9, 12:27 pm, (Tom Keats) wrote:
> In article >,
> Red Cloud > writes:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 9, 10:04 am, John Kane > wrote:
> >> On Nov 9, 2:42 am, (Tom Keats) wrote:
>
> >> > In article >,
> >> > Red Cloud > writes:
>
> >> > > http://us.franceguide.com/article.html?NodeID=1&EditoID=88863
>
> >> > What else is new?
>
> >> > Anyways, bikes -- even /good/ bikes, are so relatively
> >> > inexpensive and available, I really don't see any need
> >> > to rent them out. I myself am up to my armpits in
> >> > good, servicable bikes that people threw away or
> >> > just gave to me.
>
> >> Do you always take your bike when you go to Paris?
> >> Lot's of people own cars yet taxicabs still exist.
> >> There are likely lots of reasons why people would rent a bicycle. For
> >> Parisiens it could be a storage problem -- Paris has a high apartment
> >> occupancy rate vs detached houses. Visitors will rent bikes.
>
> >> John Kane Kingston ON Canada
>
> > Oh you bet mostly visitor will rent bikes. Paris is the first
> > city to adopt bike rental system.
>
> Oh, bulll****:
>
> http://www.trekdev.lbs.ubc.ca/programs/cycling/index.html
>

That is not city, idiot. Paris is the first rental bike city, not
first rental bike college.

> > Two german citie followed it. We
> > will see more European cities then
>
> We'll also hear a lot of political yack
> about "alternative" energy sources.
>
> Lots of talk, not so much walk.
>

Why canadian complain? First thing you Canadian guy says to American
is:
We are not American!".



> --
> Nothing is safe from me.
> I'm really at:
> tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
Zoot Katz > writes:
> On Sun, 9 Nov 2008 20:32:30 -0800 (PST), Red Cloud
> > wrote:
>
>> That is not city, idiot. Paris is the first rental bike city, not
>>first rental bike college.
>
> Go back and research the Provos "White Bike Plan" in Amsterdam.
>
> All yellow bike and rental bike efforts since that time can trace
> their roots back to 1967 at least in Amsterdam.
>
> Today, bikes painted white and left as memorials, refer back to the
> Provo "White Victim Plan" of the same period.
>
> You could rent bicycles in the 1890's. They were quite popular then
> too. The problem with Paris' otherwise successful Velo libre program
> is that nobody wants to ride the bikes back to the top of hills so
> they must be redistributed by trucks.
>
> You've been able to rent bicycles in Vancouver ever since I can
> remember. There's even some local cruiser frames built in the fifties
> still kicking around. Dude built his bikes in the winter and rented
> them to tourists for joy riding around Stanley Park in the summer.
>
> Considering today's oversize baggage charges for bicycles on
> airlines, buying and then re selling a bike in Europe or Asia might
> be more economical than transporting your own.
> Ride what the locals ride to get a real flavour of the place.

When an individual entrepreneur rents bikes out, it's
a public service, with opportunities for the entrepreneur
to garner revenue and hopefully profit, and the public to
enjoy the service provided, for a fee they deem fair enough
to gladly pay.

When a government rents bikes out, there's some political
agendum going on. But AIUI, Velib isn't so much a /rental/
scheme -- users make a gesture of good faith by paying a
returnable deposit on the bike they "borrow", the deposit
being returned when the bike is parked & locked at a
designated parking station. It boils down to coin-op bicycle
locks, a la supermarket shopping carts. I seem to recall
Amsterdam trying a similar scheme about a decade or so ago.
Nobody talks about how that worked out.

Some politicians (or wannabe politicians) will use bicycles
without actually riding them. They're just kibbitzers.
Or worse.

I just don't like bicycling being made a pawn in political games.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Artemisia]

> That is not city, idiot. Paris is the first rental bike city, not
> first rental bike college.

That is not at all true. In France alone, Lyons and Rennes had public
bike rental schemes way before Paris, and were invoked as models for the
Velib scheme. Apart from that, when I was in Geneva in 2004 there was a
_free_ bike rental scheme whereby you hired a bike with advertizing
panels on it by the day, against a refundable deposit. And even those
schemes had plenty of precedents.

EFR
Ile de France

[Artemisia]

Tom Keats wrote:
> But AIUI, Velib isn't so much a /rental/
> scheme -- users make a gesture of good faith by paying a
> returnable deposit on the bike they "borrow", the deposit
> being returned when the bike is parked & locked at a
> designated parking station.

Not exactly. In addition to the deposit, you pay a yearly subscription
of 30 Euros which sets you up with a swipe card which lets you swipe a
Velib bike out of the docking station and ride it for 30 minutes at no
extra cost. After that, the cost starts to mount rather quickly - I
think 1 euro for the next half hour, then 2 euros, then 4 euros for
every half hour after that. The idea is that the stations are 300 meters
apart, so if you need to travel for longer than 30 minutes you just
trade in the bike along the way. Swiping it in and out of the docking
station restarts the counter to 30 free minutes.

I was subscribed for a year but never once used the scheme. I just am
not happy on an unfamiliar bike, least of all in city traffic. But Velib
has been a big success. I think it is particularly appealing in modular
transport situations. I.e. you use the metro and then hop on the bike to
get to a farther metro station or between the metro and your job. Or on
a shopping trip between two shops, or to get to the movies. All sorts of
situations where having to manage a private bike would be too much of an
encumbrance. Most of those trips are under 30 minutes. Also it means you
do not have to make space for a bike in a cramped city apartment and do
not have to worry about theft, which is the most commonly cited reason
Parisians perfer not to have their own bikes.

However, private bike usage has also surged as a result of the Velib
initiative. The upshot is it gets more bikes on the roads. I do see a
great many people on Velibs whenever I go into town.

As you say, the bikes have to be constantly redistributed and
maintained, but this is seen as "job creation". The bikes are financed
by the advertizing company JC Decaux, which has exclusive rights to the
advertizing placards at all the docking stations.

You are right that there was a strong political motive in the scheme, as
it has significantly raised the profile of the Socialist mayor of Paris,
Bertrand Delanoe, who has been the most important challenger to Segolene
Royal as new leader of the Socialist Party. (This week, though, Segolene
reestablished her lead).

EFR
Ile de France

[Red Cloud]

On Nov 11, 5:46 am, (Tom Keats) wrote:
> In article >,
> Zoot Katz > writes:
>
>
>
> > On Sun, 9 Nov 2008 20:32:30 -0800 (PST), Red Cloud
> > > wrote:
>
> >> That is not city, idiot. Paris is the first rental bike city, not
> >>first rental bike college.
>
> > Go back and research the Provos "White Bike Plan" in Amsterdam.
>
> > All yellow bike and rental bike efforts since that time can trace
> > their roots back to 1967 at least in Amsterdam.
>
> > Today, bikes painted white and left as memorials, refer back to the
> > Provo "White Victim Plan" of the same period.
>
> > You could rent bicycles in the 1890's. They were quite popular then
> > too. The problem with Paris' otherwise successful Velo libre program
> > is that nobody wants to ride the bikes back to the top of hills so
> > they must be redistributed by trucks.
>
> > You've been able to rent bicycles in Vancouver ever since I can
> > remember. There's even some local cruiser frames built in the fifties
> > still kicking around. Dude built his bikes in the winter and rented
> > them to tourists for joy riding around Stanley Park in the summer.
>
> > Considering today's oversize baggage charges for bicycles on
> > airlines, buying and then re selling a bike in Europe or Asia might
> > be more economical than transporting your own.
> > Ride what the locals ride to get a real flavour of the place.
>
> When an individual entrepreneur rents bikes out, it's
> a public service, with opportunities for the entrepreneur
> to garner revenue and hopefully profit, and the public to
> enjoy the service provided, for a fee they deem fair enough
> to gladly pay.
>
> When a government rents bikes out, there's some political
> agendum going on. But AIUI, Velib isn't so much a /rental/
> scheme -- users make a gesture of good faith by paying a
> returnable deposit on the bike they "borrow", the deposit
> being returned when the bike is parked & locked at a
> designated parking station. It boils down to coin-op bicycle
> locks, a la supermarket shopping carts. I seem to recall
> Amsterdam trying a similar scheme about a decade or so ago.
> Nobody talks about how that worked out.
>
> Some politicians (or wannabe politicians) will use bicycles
> without actually riding them. They're just kibbitzers.
> Or worse.
>
> I just don't like bicycling being made a pawn in political games.
>
> cheers,
> Tom
>
> --
> Nothing is safe from me.
> I'm really at:
> tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

Velib is not using for bike political purpose. You sound like a
liberal American kook
using everything for their political purpose. Paris wanna to have
alternative
transportation. So they choose bike. They need your credit to rent a
bike, not
cash deposit.

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
Artemisia > writes:
> Tom Keats wrote:
>> But AIUI, Velib isn't so much a /rental/
>> scheme -- users make a gesture of good faith by paying a
>> returnable deposit on the bike they "borrow", the deposit
>> being returned when the bike is parked & locked at a
>> designated parking station.
>
> Not exactly. In addition to the deposit, you pay a yearly subscription
> of 30 Euros which sets you up with a swipe card which lets you swipe a
> Velib bike out of the docking station and ride it for 30 minutes at no
> extra cost. After that, the cost starts to mount rather quickly - I
> think 1 euro for the next half hour, then 2 euros, then 4 euros for
> every half hour after that. The idea is that the stations are 300 meters
> apart, so if you need to travel for longer than 30 minutes you just
> trade in the bike along the way. Swiping it in and out of the docking
> station restarts the counter to 30 free minutes.
>
> I was subscribed for a year but never once used the scheme. I just am
> not happy on an unfamiliar bike, least of all in city traffic. But Velib
> has been a big success. I think it is particularly appealing in modular
> transport situations. I.e. you use the metro and then hop on the bike to
> get to a farther metro station or between the metro and your job. Or on
> a shopping trip between two shops, or to get to the movies. All sorts of
> situations where having to manage a private bike would be too much of an
> encumbrance. Most of those trips are under 30 minutes. Also it means you
> do not have to make space for a bike in a cramped city apartment and do
> not have to worry about theft, which is the most commonly cited reason
> Parisians perfer not to have their own bikes.
>
> However, private bike usage has also surged as a result of the Velib
> initiative. The upshot is it gets more bikes on the roads. I do see a
> great many people on Velibs whenever I go into town.
>
> As you say, the bikes have to be constantly redistributed and
> maintained, but this is seen as "job creation". The bikes are financed
> by the advertizing company JC Decaux, which has exclusive rights to the
> advertizing placards at all the docking stations.
>
> You are right that there was a strong political motive in the scheme, as
> it has significantly raised the profile of the Socialist mayor of Paris,
> Bertrand Delanoe, who has been the most important challenger to Segolene
> Royal as new leader of the Socialist Party. (This week, though, Segolene
> reestablished her lead).

Thank you for your edifying post.

I feel the same way as you about riding an ufamiliar bike.

Introducing the joys & beauties of bicycling to people
is a great thing. I'd prefer if real people did that
magnum opus, instead of politicians. But sometimes the
ends justify the means.

I reluctantly allow. ;-)


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca