Round Crown Aluminum Frame

[Conrad.Nguyen]

I'm talking with a frame builder about making some round crown aluminum
frames.

I need two things from you.

What is the max you would pay for such a frame? How many of you would
really buy one if they are available?


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[saskatchewanian]

I would pay up to $250 for a round crown frame that would fit a 26X3
Gazz, has machined 42mm bearing holders and includes Maura mounts.


edit $200 USD or $250 CAD whichever is more


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[SHAY_CAM]

I would probably pay a max of 50$ for a alu. frame.


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[wickedbob]

250usd. I'm not sure I owuld get one though.


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[JosephCampbell]

250usd.
20inch frame.
but I would only buy it if it were lighter than a kh frame.
preferably longneck option cause I ride trials and the whole purpose of
a round crown for me is to not bash my knees. the longneck would put
the post clamp high enough to not hit body parts while riding.


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[Conrad.Nguyen]

Different frame sizes and neck lengths shouldn't be a problem, but I
will check. Magura mounts I know won't be a problem.


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[wickedbob]

JosephCampbell;1129230 wrote:
> 250usd.
> 20inch frame.
> but I would only buy it if it were lighter than a kh frame.
> preferably longneck option cause I ride trials and the whole purpose of
> a round crown for me is to not bash my knees. the longneck would put
> the post clamp high enough to not hit body parts while riding.



Yeah, good point, if it's heaveir than the kh, I will not go for it. If
it's not a longneck, I'm also not really interested.

If you could make a strong, light, longneck alu round crown I would be
in.


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[unibikeling]

cool. I'd def pay 200-250 (whatever really, as long as its not like a
450 dollar frame). Yeah, sounds great dude!


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[OneWheelLess]

i'd maybe be interested..... however i really prefer steel. if decent
tubing is used, they could be lighter and stronger than aluminum


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[Any Terrain]

I may be interested. But I would use it for flat and street, so I need
to know it will not brake where the crown meets the seat tube (when
doing tricks like 270 unispins or others that put a lot of stress
there.).

$175-225 US


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[samwii]

you should make a longneck for definate, 42mm bearing caps for ISIS...
umm... 27.4mm so you can put koxx one seatpost and clamp on it.
Price... around £70 (not sure what that is in $'s)


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[joemarshall]

Has he built any unicycles before, or just bike forks - worth knowing,
as bike forks take quite different stresses to unicycles, so it might
take a few more prototypes if he doesn't know about unicycles?

Is there a guarantee?

Joe


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[Conrad.Nguyen]

He does actual bike frames. It's still up in the air, just gauging
interest right now.

Latest Work:
[image:
http://www.observedtrials.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=14065&d=1223848273]


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[Probailer2]

A price simular to the KH frames would be fair.


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[Jeremy R]

Ooooooh pretty! It needs to be between nimbus price, 50 and KH price,
200. So I'd say 120ish or less. Plus, you need to guarantee your
product, say, for a year.
From McMaster Carr you can get T5 Aluminum 6063 in 8' quantities for 13
bucks, 1 inch OD, .065 wall thicknes












So for strong reinforced aluminum, you could produce (10" per fork, 5
for crown, and say 7 for post, = 32" for piping, and about 3 frames
per 8', so lets say 5 dollars) +welding(30 including heat treating), +
bearing holders (maybe 20 total), and any additional reinforcements(10),
then product shipment, guarantee, and additional expenses, (25) = $90*
and that includes shipping, guarantee, and anything else, along with
reinforcements, and welding, which may be less cost. That leaves $30
profit, and you could charge more. Idk, sorry for calculating, and if I
left something out. Because your guy makes bike frames, he probably has
pricier better alloy.

*USD


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[Smilymarco]

I wouldn't pay more than for a KH frame...


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[Seager]

Why do people suddenly like round crown frames again? I must have missed
that memo.


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[joemarshall]

Smilymarco;1129398 wrote:
> I wouldn't pay more than for a KH frame...



I'd be wary of buying a custom built in the USA frame that cost less
than the KH. Bearing in mind that pretty much every other custom built
frame has cost more like $500, it'd suggest some shortcuts being taken
in the process somewhere. Unless it's being built just for fun and the
guy isn't charging for his time.

I mean the guy above who priced up the material has costed it at $90 in
materials + machining alone, although there are some pretty random
numbers in there - like $20 for machining a set of bearing holders
sounds pretty cheap - given a mass produced commercial pair will cost
you $40, I'd bet the real cost would be easily twice that. If he's doing
it well he has to factor in the cost of a few prototypes as he's never
built a unicycle before, the cost of his time building them, the cost of
guaranteeing them, and a profit.

Joe


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[Jeremy R]

joemarshall;1129417 wrote:
> I'd be wary of buying a custom built in the USA frame that cost less
> than the KH. Bearing in mind that pretty much every other custom built
> frame has cost more like $500, it'd suggest some shortcuts being taken
> in the process somewhere. Unless it's being built just for fun and the
> guy isn't charging for his time.
>
> I mean the guy above who priced up the material has costed it at $90 in
> materials + machining alone, although there are some pretty random
> numbers in there - like $20 for machining a set of bearing holders
> sounds pretty cheap - given a mass produced commercial pair will cost
> you $40, I'd bet the real cost would be easily twice that. If he's doing
> it well he has to factor in the cost of a few prototypes as he's never
> built a unicycle before, the cost of his time building them, the cost of
> guaranteeing them, and a profit.
>
> Joe


What?

http://www.unicycle.com/shopping/shopexd.asp?id=1182

I tried to throw in a few extra costs, if you noticed. A roundcrown
frame needs about 3 welds, so not alot.


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[joemarshall]

Jeremy R;1129427 wrote:
> What?
>
> http://www.unicycle.com/shopping/shopexd.asp?id=1182
>
> I tried to throw in a few extra costs, if you noticed. A roundcrown
> frame needs about 3 welds, so not alot.



That's the cost for half a bearing holder, and mass produced in Taiwan
out of steel, which you obviously can't use for the top bit of a bearing
holder on an aluminium frame. So $24 to get a mass produced one from
Taiwan out of a cheaper material. If you buy the ones mass produced in
Taiwan out of aluminium, the cost is $40 a set (KH ones). You'd usually
expect a custom build to be more expensive than the cost of buying
them.

Joe


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[Probailer2]

Jeremy R;1129427 wrote:
> What?
>
> http://www.unicycle.com/shopping/shopexd.asp?id=1182
>
> I tried to throw in a few extra costs, if you noticed. A roundcrown
> frame needs about 3 welds, so not alot.



Those are CrMO and not alluminum, I don't think those 2 will weld
together :rolleyes:


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> I don't like having penis written all over my uni:) .



manon1wheel wrote:
> no offense but deads look plain old gross...
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[Nurse Ben]

How much market is there for a frame only?

Granted, I'm looking to upgrade my 24" Nimbus II, but that's only
because it's the old one which is too narrow for a 3" tire; I also want
brake mounts.

The new Nimbus muni frame is ~$45, KH is $200, so if you build a round
alumium model that is equivallent to KH, I'd go $100.

The weight difference in a 24" frame, between a KH and Nimbus, is
around 6 ounces. You could save that by changing tires, a lighter tube,
lighter cranks/pedals, etc...

If you want to sell a frame, use titanium, it's what people want and no
one has one for sale!


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[Jeremy R]

joemarshall;1129440 wrote:
> That's the cost for half a bearing holder, and mass produced in Taiwan
> out of steel, which you obviously can't use for the top bit of a bearing
> holder on an aluminium frame. So $24 to get a mass produced one from
> Taiwan out of a cheaper material. If you buy the ones mass produced in
> Taiwan out of aluminium, the cost is $40 a set (KH ones). You'd usually
> expect a custom build to be more expensive than the cost of buying them.
>
> Joe


I realize that, but KH markup is RIDICULOUS. Bike Island sold KH's for
200 less. Im sure it can't be that expensive to make a bearing holder.


Probailer2;1129441 wrote:
> Those are CrMO and not alluminum, I don't think those 2 will weld
> together :rolleyes:


Good Catch

Nurse Ben;1129449 wrote:
> How much market is there for a frame only?
>
> Granted, I'm looking to upgrade my 24" Nimbus II, but that's only
> because it's the old one which is too narrow for a 3" tire; I also want
> brake mounts.
>
> The new Nimbus muni frame is ~$45, KH is $200, so if you build a round
> alumium model that is equivallent to KH, I'd go $100.
>
> The weight difference in a 24" frame, between a KH and Nimbus, is
> around 6 ounces. You could save that by changing tires, a lighter tube,
> lighter cranks/pedals, etc...
>
> If you want to sell a frame, use titanium, it's what people want and no
> one has one for sale!


I agree. I actually wouldnt mind a steel roundie. I just want a
roundie, forks bash my knees past oblivion.


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[maestro8]

Jeremy R;1129427 wrote:
> I tried to throw in a few extra costs, if you noticed. A roundcrown
> frame needs about 3 welds, so not alot.



As Mr. Marshall is pointing out, you're overlooking many indirect costs
associated with production, especially small batch production as the OP
is suggesting.

Before a small batch producer can even begin to think about profit,
they have to cover the time and materials spent in research and
development, and they have to cover it in many fewer sales. Whether
your produce 10 frames or 1,000, you're going to have to do a lot of the
same R&D.

Also consider that he has tooling and setup costs to recover as well.
It doesn't matter how few or how many welds are made, a welding jig
needs to be made if more than a few pieces are produced. Same goes for
any machine processes; he'll need to make a jig for the bearing holders.
These things take time to figure out, time to implement, and time to
use.

While it may only take a few minutes to do the welds or cut the
holders, it still takes time to set up the tools, time to break them
down, and time to clean up shop afterwards.

A lot of these times are constant, regardless of the number of units
being produced. This means that the cost per unit can only be reduced
by producing more frames... and in this case that doesn't seem to be an
option. They're just going to have to charge more per frame.


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[kington99]

Nurse Ben;1129449 wrote:
> How much market is there for a frame only?
>



i would say insufficient for it to be commercially viable. Why? Because
none of the big manafactureres are doing one, despite their low-cost
manafacturing facilities, wide distribution and bulk discounts.


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[hobo_chuck]

I'd still rather have a Ti Nimbus frame...


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[saskatchewanian]

If it is not too much of a stretch I also wouldn't mind a 36er frame
same as the 26" frame I mentioned earlier but with longer legs.

I would obviously pay more for the larger frame.


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[polevaultinunicyclist]

thats silly. i would never pay more than 100 for one. 80 if your luckey


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[unibikeling]

polevaultinunicyclist;1129524 wrote:
> thats silly. i would never pay more than 100 for one. 80 if your luckey



*Cough Cough* aparently someone doesnt understand the amount of labor
and machining that goes into something like this. Plus how much time
needs to be spent on welding aluminum. 250 is probably a reasonable
price in my opinion, thats expect that it will be strong (but your
friend makes bike trial frames, so its gonna be strong).


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[kington99]

unibikeling;1129526 wrote:
> *Cough Cough* aparently someone doesnt understand the amount of labor
> and machining that goes into something like this.



In a way that's irrelevant. The amount someone will pay for something
is what it's worth to them as a product, regardless of how much it cost
to build. As an example, I would only pay a couple of hundred quid for a
Ti nimbus. I don't care if it cost £1k to build, it's just not worth
that to me. Now if you're arguing about what is a fair price that's a
different matter, but perceived value is entirely in the eye of the
beholder.


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[unibikeling]

kington99;1129540 wrote:
> In a way that's irrelevant. The amount someone will pay for something is
> what it's worth to them as a product, regardless of how much it cost to
> build. As an example, I would only pay a couple of hundred quid for a Ti
> nimbus. I don't care if it cost £1k to build, it's just not worth that
> to me. Now if you're arguing about what is a fair price that's a
> different matter, but perceived value is entirely in the eye of the
> beholder.



actually, sorry. I just thought of that. I mean, to me, the frame would
easily be worth 250, feeling that i'd cover the persons labor fairly,
and have a nice frame. But i guess, to a person whos happy with their
setup, and doesnt really think much of machining or something, would
obviously think of a lesser price.


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[Jerrick]

unibikeling;1129545 wrote:
> actually, sorry. I just thought of that. I mean, to me, the frame would
> easily be worth 250, feeling that i'd cover the persons labor fairly,
> and have a nice frame. But i guess, to a person whos happy with their
> setup, and doesnt really think much of machining or something, would
> obviously think of a lesser price.




What about someone who knows all about the process of building a frame.
Prices of metal, equipment needed, experience needed to have quality
welds and so on?

Youll be lucky for me to pay $80 for one. Extremely lucky.


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Jerrick

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[unibikeling]

Jerrick;1129604 wrote:
> What about someone who knows all about the process of building a frame.
> Prices of metal, equipment needed, experience needed to have quality
> welds and so on?
>
> Youll be lucky for me to pay $80 for one. Extremely lucky.



Its all about who hes marketing towards also. For people who need/want
round crowns (for example trials riders like myself), they would
probably know what to pay for something they need/want.


--
unibikeling

"-I'll learn the landing after I do the take off-"

'Sixsixone - Great gear for all riding!' (sixsixone.com)
'My Videos' (http://www.youtube.com/user/lardmcfatso)

Sprite Off Winner 08~
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[Jerrick]

Are you saying I am not a trials rider? Or that I dont understand what I
think I need to pay for a frame?


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Jerrick

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[unibikeling]

Jerrick;1129608 wrote:
> Are you saying I am not a trials rider? Or that I dont understand what I
> think I need to pay for a frame?



no, i'm just saying that you lack an initial want/need for the frame. I
didnt say that ONLY trials riders want round crowns, or that all trials
riders want round crowns, just sorta meant that a lot do. You probably
just dont see much of a point in it i guess.

idk, i'd like one though, ive been riding crappy frames (either flat
crown, or rubbing on the tire) so i'd really like a change lol...


--
unibikeling

"-I'll learn the landing after I do the take off-"

'Sixsixone - Great gear for all riding!' (sixsixone.com)
'My Videos' (http://www.youtube.com/user/lardmcfatso)

Sprite Off Winner 08~
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[ntappin]

An alu 36er frame would be boss, but it would need to be mad stiff and
have brake mounts.


--
ntappin

'how to build a strong comfy saddle from junk.'
(http://tinyurl.com/hxcb3)
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[Jerrick]

ntappin;1129654 wrote:
> An alu 36er frame would be boss, but it would need to be mad stiff and
> have brake mounts.



Doesnt coker have one of those?


--
Jerrick

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[saskatchewanian]

Jerrick;1129658 wrote:
> Doesnt coker have one of those?



yah, but you would have to buy the whole cycle, and it has 40mm bearing
holders and 130mm spacing, and the break mounts are for V breaks, and it
wouldn't fit the 36X3" Monster Muni tire I have in my head...


dam, now I really want a custom 36er frame


--
saskatchewanian
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[mscalisi]

Surely you must be joking.

I would expect a skilled american craftsman to make small batches of
high quality frames for minimum wage disregarding any R&D, setup costs,
equipment costs and other additional overhead.

After all, teeny boppers are used to cheap, mass-produced chinese made
consumer goods, and won't tolorate someone actually trying to make a
living.

Obviously Kris is making a bundle ripping everyone off, haven't you
seen his latest leer jet?

...as a side remark, I was in a store today, and I saw some "God Bless
America" coffee mugs. I flipped one over and wasn't even a little
surprised to see "made in China".



maestro8;1129479 wrote:
> As Mr. Marshall is pointing out, you're overlooking many indirect costs
> associated with production, especially small batch production as the OP
> is suggesting.
>
> Before a small batch producer can even begin to think about profit,
> they have to cover the time and materials spent in research and
> development, and they have to cover it in many fewer sales. Whether
> your produce 10 frames or 1,000, you're going to have to do a lot of the
> same R&D.
>
> Also consider that he has tooling and setup costs to recover as well.
> It doesn't matter how few or how many welds are made, a welding jig
> needs to be made if more than a few pieces are produced. Same goes for
> any machine processes; he'll need to make a jig for the bearing holders.
> These things take time to figure out, time to implement, and time to
> use.
>
> While it may only take a few minutes to do the welds or cut the
> holders, it still takes time to set up the tools, time to break them
> down, and time to clean up shop afterwards.
>
> A lot of these times are constant, regardless of the number of units
> being produced. This means that the cost per unit can only be reduced
> by producing more frames... and in this case that doesn't seem to be an
> option. They're just going to have to charge more per frame.


--
mscalisi

><> Unicycle for (reducing the) Buddha <><
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[wickedbob]

One last thing, I personally would prefer a frame made to fit 25.4
posts, with no shim's needed, like a nimbus frame. If it wouldn't make
it weaker or anything like that, of course.


--
wickedbob

R.I.P MITCH HEDBERG
'Add wickedbob to your ignore list' (http://tinyurl.com/3dfrko).

Ducttape wrote:
> haha! I'm rubbing off on people again....


My posts don't count they came from MR...would they matter anyways?
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