Entering the queue at a stop sign

[Roly Poly Man]

As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there
is a stop sign with about 5 to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.

Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right
up to the stop sign. Isn't this kind of dangerous? I know it's
not proper to pass traffic on the right, and I have often seen a
car suddenly pull out (which would be into a cyclist) using a
lane, gravel shoulder, etc to make an impromptu right turn.

On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with
vehicles. At least I don't think I've ever seen this done.

Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical
busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do you keep to the right and
make two crossings?

[Larry Schuldt]

Good question...

fwiw, for me it depends on how long the line. If the line is only a
few cars, I take my place at the back and wait my turn. This is safest
because I take the lane. I'm not beside anyone who could potentially
turn right (I'm in the US)

If the line gets longer, I ride to the front and stop. The latter move
is risky because of the possibility of a right turner. I watch for
turn signals, the angle of the front wheels, and body language of the
driver of the vehicle to my left.

larry
--
To reply by e-mail, be polite. Rudeness will get you nowhere.

[Rick Onanian]

On 23 Jul 2003 14:53:55 -0700, Roly Poly Man >
wrote:

> As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there
> is a stop sign with about 5 to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.
>
> Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right
> up to the stop sign. Isn't this kind of dangerous? I know it's
> not proper to pass traffic on the right, and I have often seen a
> car suddenly pull out (which would be into a cyclist) using a
> lane, gravel shoulder, etc to make an impromptu right turn.

I try to avoid roads like that. However, when in that situation, I don't
wait in the queue; I carefully ride the right shoulder -- I don't fly.

> On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with
> vehicles. At least I don't think I've ever seen this done.

This is appropriate sometimes; make a judgement call.

> Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical
> busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do you keep to the right and
> make two crossings?

Again, I try to avoid such roads; but on smaller roads, with a straight
lane and a left-turn-only (or even a right-turn-only) lane, I'll go ahead
and enter the queue between cars, and wait at the traffic light/stop sign
just as if I were driving. I do make every attempt not to hold up traffic
with my slow speed, and I accomplish proper speeds for these situations
pretty well.

Drivers don't seem to be ****ed off about it.

My question: Going straight when there's a right-turn-only lane. This is a
situation where I feel both danger and my slowing powered-vehicle drivers.
Consider:
-that I may have to violate the right-turn-only lane, which is dangerous
in two ways. One, traffic expects me to turn right. Two, oncoming traffic
visibility is often blocked by a vehicle turning left.
-if I don't do that, I have to cross that right-turn-only lane, into the
straight/left-turn lane. This means merging into potentially much faster
vehicular traffic, and then forcing them to wait behind.

Then there's the issue of my terrible clipless pedals that I can never seem
to get into. Now I'm holding up traffic AND embarassing myself. Gotta get
something better than Wellgo R4; maybe something in an SPD, or for ultra-
cool looks, egg beaters or m2Racer Orbs...

--
Rick Onanian

[Ken]

Larry Schuldt > wrote in
:
> If the line gets longer, I ride to the front and stop.

When I do this, I don't stop in front of the first car. I'll stop between
the 1st and 2nd car or to the side of the first car. The driver in the 1st
car might be staring at the green light and not see you; or might get ****ed
that you are blocking his path. The 2nd car is already blocked, so won't
mind as much.

[David Kerber]

In article >,
says...
> As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there
> is a stop sign with about 5 to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.
>
> Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right
> up to the stop sign. Isn't this kind of dangerous? I know it's
> not proper to pass traffic on the right, and I have often seen a
> car suddenly pull out (which would be into a cyclist) using a
> lane, gravel shoulder, etc to make an impromptu right turn.
>
> On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with
> vehicles. At least I don't think I've ever seen this done.

You've never seen me, then; that's how I do it. I was almost right-
hooked (which is the Cyclist's term for what you described above) a
couple of months ago, and since then, I always take the lane at stop
light or stop sign. I can accelerate as fast as the car in front of me
and stay fast enough through the intersection that I don't delay the car
behind me and get him ****ed at me.


> Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical
> busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do you keep to the right and
> make two crossings?

Traffic and speeds permitting, I move over into the left lane just as a
car would. If the traffic is too heavy or going too fast for that to
feel safe, then I pretend I'm a pedestrian and make two crossings in the
cross-walks, making sure to go at pedestrian speed so as not to throw
off a car which might be turning across the cross-walks. It only takes
an extra minute or so usually, so doesn't cost me much.

YMMV!

--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

[Steven Goodridge]

"Roly Poly Man" > wrote in message
om...
> On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with
> vehicles. At least I don't think I've ever seen this done.

I always get into the queue at a stop sign. It's first come, first served.
If there is a right-turn-only lane, it's especially important to get into
the correct lane so that traffic is sorted properly based on destination. I
want right-turning drivers to pass to my right if I am not going that way.
Destination positioning is more important than anything else at
intersections.

> Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical
> busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do you keep to the right and
> make two crossings?

If I can find a good traffic gap, I merge all the way to the left (near the
center of the road) in preparation to get into the left turn lane. If I
don't feel comfortable doing this, I go straight and get off the bike to
cross the street as a pedestrian, or at least to dismount to replace the
bike in the correct lane to proceed from the cross street.

Steve Goodridge
http://humantransport.org/bicycledriving/

[Eric Murray]

In article >,
Roly Poly Man > wrote:
>As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there
>is a stop sign with about 5 to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.
>
>Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right
>up to the stop sign. Isn't this kind of dangerous? I know it's
>not proper to pass traffic on the right, and I have often seen a
>car suddenly pull out (which would be into a cyclist) using a
>lane, gravel shoulder, etc to make an impromptu right turn.
>
>On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with
>vehicles. At least I don't think I've ever seen this done.

If the road ahead is narrow, I'll wait my turn in line.
I don't want to pass a bunch of cars at a stop and then
hold them up.

Otherwise I'll ride up the shoulder to the stop sign, and
go through after stopping (or nearly stopping without unclipping).
I go through with a car from my road. That way I have "cover"
from the left and I don't take my own cycle at the stop
and slow the other drivers.

>Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical
>busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do you keep to the right and
>make two crossings?

Only in dire emergency.

Use the left turn lane.

Eric

[Eric S. Sande]

>As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there
>is a stop sign with about 5 to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.

It depends on the conditions. Filtering is legal on either side
where I ride (DC) but that doesn't mean it's smart. Ninety percent
of the time I'll queue with the other vehicles.

Since I mostly ride in the city center at rush hour (commuting)
there is little or no speed differential involved. There is a
significant acceleration differential, though. I'll get cars
that swerve around me only to come to a complete stop half a block
later. Pointless waste of energy.

>Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right
>up to the stop sign. Isn't this kind of dangerous?

Yep.

>I know it's not proper to pass traffic on the right, and I have
>often seen a car suddenly pull out (which would be into a cyclist)
>using a lane, gravel shoulder, etc to make an impromptu right turn.

Yep.

>On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with
>vehicles. At least I don't think I've ever seen this done.

It's regularly done by me, but I'm an obnoxious VC Nazi. :-)

>Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical
>busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do you keep to the right and
>make two crossings?

Merge left one lane at a time and keep checking six. Well
ahead of the intersection. Set up the turn as you would in a
car. Better yet, plan ahead and be in the correct lane from
the beginning. Use a lot of hand signals.

Practice on a deserted road like a city center arterial, on
a Sunday or at night. Preferably the same route you intend to
ride in prime time. It really helps to know the hazards before
you encounter them in full on traffic.

The goal is to minimize the surprise factor.

ANY road situation can be mastered by good intelligence, strategy
and tactics. And anyone can learn this approach.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________
------------------"Buddy Holly, the Texas Elvis"------------------

[David L. Johnson]

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 14:53:55 +0000, Roly Poly Man wrote:

> As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there is
> a stop sign with about 5 to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.

What is wrong with joining the line?
>
> Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right up to
> the stop sign. Isn't this kind of dangerous?

Yes -- if there is no clear provision for cyclists.

> On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with vehicles.
> At least I don't think I've ever seen this done.

Why not? If you wanted to be treated like part of the traffic rather than
something blocking traffic, treat yourself like part of the traffic.
>
> Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical busy 4-lane
> or 6-lane boulevard? Do you keep to the right and make two crossings?

That's what left-turn lanes are for.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | We have a record of conquest, colonization and expansion
_`\(,_ | unequalled by any people in the Nineteenth Century. We are not
(_)/ (_) | to be curbed now. --Henry Cabot Lodge, 1895

[David L. Johnson]

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:20:50 +0000, Rick Onanian wrote:

> My question: Going straight when there's a right-turn-only lane. This is a
> situation where I feel both danger and my slowing powered-vehicle drivers.
> Consider:
> -that I may have to violate the right-turn-only lane, which is dangerous
> in two ways. One, traffic expects me to turn right. Two, oncoming traffic
> visibility is often blocked by a vehicle turning left.
> -if I don't do that, I have to cross that right-turn-only lane, into the
> straight/left-turn lane. This means merging into potentially much faster
> vehicular traffic, and then forcing them to wait behind.

You need to ride in the right-most lane that is consistent with your
direction of travel. If you slow someone down a bit, that is far better
than getting hit by someone turning right because you were going straight
in a right-turn lane.

Use the lanes like a vehicle -- you are riding one.

>
> Then there's the issue of my terrible clipless pedals that I can never
> seem to get into. Now I'm holding up traffic AND embarassing myself. Gotta
> get something better than Wellgo R4; maybe something in an SPD, or for
> ultra- cool looks, egg beaters or m2Racer Orbs...

Side issue. I did this with double toe straps and cleats, on a fixed
gear. Don't let clipping in get in the way of negotiating traffic.


--

David L. Johnson

__o | "What am I on? I'm on my bike, six hours a day, busting my ass.
_`\(,_ | What are you on?" --Lance Armstrong
(_)/ (_) |

[mark]

"Roly Poly Man" wrote
> As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there
> is a stop sign with about 5 to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.
>
> Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right
> up to the stop sign. Isn't this kind of dangerous? I know it's
> not proper to pass traffic on the right, and I have often seen a
> car suddenly pull out (which would be into a cyclist) using a
> lane, gravel shoulder, etc to make an impromptu right turn.
>
> On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with
> vehicles. At least I don't think I've ever seen this done.
>
> Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical
> busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do you keep to the right and
> make two crossings?
>

With 5 to 10 vehicles lined up, I will frequently come up the left side , on
the center line (eliminates the right hook scenario) and switch to the right
side as I'm coming up on the last two or three vehicles waiting for the stop
sign. I do this by using the gap created as the first vehicle leaves the
stop sign and the second one hasn't started to move yet. I then clear the
stop sign in conjunction with the vehicle along side of me, using him to
block traffic from the left and provide visibility to traffic from the
right. If the vehicle at the stop sign shows any sign of intending to make
a right turn, I wait and go with the next vehicle, or (traffic permitting),
go through the stop sign on the right turning vehicle's left side. Driver's
in my area don't seem to mind, possibly in part because I move quickly and I
am very careful not to hold anyone up.

Left turns: keeping to the right and making two crossings could be a safe
bet in really heavy, fast traffic. If my speed and traffic speed permits, I
move into the left turn lane like a car. Signal your intentions, plan your
move a long way ahead, and be ready to bail out and do the "stay right and
make two crossings" scenario if you have to. Another option if the cross
street is a quite one is to make a right turn, a quick U-turn (check for
traffic behind you first), and proceed straight through the intersection.
HTH,
--
mark

[Scott Munro]

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 18:20:50 -0400, Rick Onanian >
wrote:

>My question: Going straight when there's a right-turn-only lane. This is a
>situation where I feel both danger and my slowing powered-vehicle drivers.
>Consider:
> -that I may have to violate the right-turn-only lane, which is dangerous
>in two ways. One, traffic expects me to turn right. Two, oncoming traffic
>visibility is often blocked by a vehicle turning left.
> -if I don't do that, I have to cross that right-turn-only lane, into the
>straight/left-turn lane. This means merging into potentially much faster
>vehicular traffic, and then forcing them to wait behind.

On city streets, I move into the rightmost through lane. I don't go
out of my way to be an obstruction, but I have the right to use the
road safely, and slowing down a few drivers by a few seconds doesn't
bother me much.

On a highway with a rideable hard shoulder, I look back to make sure
no one's going to turn into me (if there's any question, I slow and
let them pass), then go straight through on the very left edge of the
turn lane (prepared to stop if anyone entering the road from the right
gets confused). This seems to be, on balance, the best way to do it
when motor traffic speeds are that high, though I can see that there
is a good argument for merging into the right through lane even in
that situation. What I would never do is remain on the shoulder (or
bike lane) to the right of a right-turn-only lane.

--
"Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes--our
ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit
to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be
walking around."
-- G.K. Chesterton

[Scott Munro]

On 23 Jul 2003 14:53:55 -0700, (Roly Poly Man)
wrote:

>As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there
>is a stop sign with about 5 to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.

Your bicycle is also a vehicle.

>Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right
>up to the stop sign. Isn't this kind of dangerous? I know it's
>not proper to pass traffic on the right, and I have often seen a
>car suddenly pull out (which would be into a cyclist) using a
>lane, gravel shoulder, etc to make an impromptu right turn.
>
>On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with
>vehicles. At least I don't think I've ever seen this done.

I try to get in the queue. If traffic is too heavy to permit this (I
find this is usually the case at a red light, rather than a stop
sign), I stay to the right, but stop just behind the last car ahead of
me at the stop. Then I make sure I stay ahead of the first car behind
me.

I only pass on the right if there is a full lane's width (that is,
room for another car) between each car and the curb, and no one is
signalling a right turn or nosing toward the curb. This pretty much
never happens to me at a stop sign, but it sometimes does at a red
light.

The reason you've never seen a cyclist merge into motor traffic is
that most cyclists seem to think they should stay as close as possible
to the curb at all times.

--
"Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes--our
ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit
to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be
walking around."
-- G.K. Chesterton

[Rick Onanian]

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:36:12 -0400, David L. Johnson
> wrote:
> gear. Don't let clipping in get in the way of negotiating traffic.

I haven't a choice; these pedals are terrible, and the shoes slip right off
them if I'm not clipped in or if I'm on the wrong side of the pedal. The
pedals are terrible. Period.

--
Rick Onanian

[Rick Onanian]

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 02:40:52 GMT, mark >
wrote:
> With 5 to 10 vehicles lined up, I will frequently come up the left side ,
> the center line (eliminates the right hook scenario) and switch to the
> side as I'm coming up on the last two or three vehicles waiting for the
> sign. I do this by using the gap created as the first vehicle leaves the
> stop sign and the second one hasn't started to move yet. I then clear the

This sounds dangerous -- if the driver fails to look ahead, and moves
forward based on seeing (out of the corner of his eye) the car in front
of him drive away, you're smooshed. And yes, many drivers will go based
on the insufficient data collected while they're paying attention to
something else.

> HTH,
> --
> mark
--
Rick Onanian

[Tanya Quinn]

> My question: Going straight when there's a right-turn-only lane. This is a
> situation where I feel both danger and my slowing powered-vehicle drivers.
> Consider:
> -that I may have to violate the right-turn-only lane, which is dangerous
> in two ways. One, traffic expects me to turn right. Two, oncoming traffic
> visibility is often blocked by a vehicle turning left.
> -if I don't do that, I have to cross that right-turn-only lane, into the
> straight/left-turn lane. This means merging into potentially much faster
> vehicular traffic, and then forcing them to wait behind.

Signal your intent to merge left, shoulder check, and then merge. Try
to do this enough ahead of time that there will be a gap that you can
enter. If the lanes are of sufficient width, you should be able to
ride at the right hand side of the straight lane allowing faster
traffic to pass within the lane. You could also (although not
technically correct) ride along the left-hand side of the right turn
lane. That way it is obvious that you are not turning right, you will
not have conflict with the cars in the straight lane, and cars turning
right should have sufficient room to do so without interfering with
you.

Tanya

[Tanya Quinn]

(Roly Poly Man) wrote in message >...
> As a novice biker, I am curious what you are supposed to do when there
> is a stop sign with about 5 to 10 vehicles lined up to get their turn.
>
> Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right
> up to the stop sign. Isn't this kind of dangerous? I know it's
> not proper to pass traffic on the right, and I have often seen a
> car suddenly pull out (which would be into a cyclist) using a
> lane, gravel shoulder, etc to make an impromptu right turn.
>
> On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with
> vehicles. At least I don't think I've ever seen this done.

There are three things that you can do:
1. Enter the queue with the vehicles. This is most correct according
to vehicle code. You are a vehicle. I would do this if its not going
to be a long wait.
However, IMO one of the advantages of riding a bike as opposed to
driving a car is not having to put up with the congestion that having
a large oversized inflexible vehicle creates. I want to get to where I
am going quickly. If I wanted to sit idling at slower than walking
speed in a congested area I would have taken a car not a bicycle.
Which brings us to:
2. Passing on the left. (especially useful if you want to turn left at
the stop sign) The correct way to pass other stopped or slower moving
vehicles. Sometimes made impractical by the haphazard way that cars
stop in a lane at an intersection.
3. Passing on the right. This is potentially dangerous, but its a
judgment call. Is there any place for a car to suddenly pull out of
the lane? If not its easier to do this. Be aware though that a
passenger may decide to get out at a stop sign as well opening their
door into you. Practically speaking, cyclists pass on the right in
stopped traffic often. Then when you get to the front of the line,
observe whether the car at the front appears to be turning right or
going straight. If turning right let it go by.. You can also (although
also not technically correct) stop a little bit ahead of the white
line, so that when you both go you go straight ahead of the car
turning right.

Some cyclist pass on the left and then move to the right as they
approach the intersection but a "weaving" pattern can make you look
unpredictable - something you want to avoid.

> Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical
> busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do you keep to the right and
> make two crossings?

Same as you would in a car. Shoulder check. Signal left. Merge lanes
one at a time. Make sure to do this well in advance of the
intersection. If there is a left turn lane you want to be on the right
side of the lane. If there is no left turn lane you want to be on the
left side of the straight/left turn lane, however ideally not to the
left of anyone turning left. Usually I will stay in the center of the
lane at the red light (in the queue) and when the light turns green
move further left into the intersection to wait for oncoming traffic
to allow vehicles going straight through in my lane to pass.

At busier intersections or ones where I just run out of time to merge
(and sometimes ones with a gaggle of streetcar tracks to cross, I hate
that) I ride to the other side of the intersection, stop, dismount and
then walk the bike to the other side as a pedestrian.

[Privatelife]

If there is a long line I go to the front. I also smile and wave at the
driver of the first car. If only 2 or 3 cars, I act like a car and get in
line too.

If there is no cars in line and cars coming from the back, I take the lane.
If there is a turning lane, I get on the wide white line so I don't hold up
cars wanting to make right turns on red.

One of the best tips ever givin to me was to ride in the grove made by the
passenger side (right) wheels. This makes passing cars change lanes.
Otherwise, they might run you off the road.

Good luck and ride safe.

[Robin Hubert]

I think y'all ought to queue up jes like aevery american citizen. It
commands respect and minimizes contact with the same idiot again.

What's the damn hurry?



--
Robin Hubert >

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
bigfloppyllama > writes:

> Honestly, I feel
> that it's more dangerous to stop in the bike lane since no cyclist I can
> think of expects you to stop. Your thoughts on this?

Do the hand signal, stop, and avoid getting a ticket.


cheers,
Tom

--
-- Powered by FreeBSD
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

[Tanya Quinn]

bigfloppyllama > wrote in message >...
> I have a question regarding stop signs. In the case of something like
> this, do you stop, yield, or just pass right through the stop sign:
> http://floppyllama.homestead.com/files/aaaa.jpg It's a US road so the
> cars travel on the right side of the road, along with bikes. Red is a
> stop sign, blue arrow is the direction you're going. Yellow is the split
> of the road.
>
> The road is rarely traveled on, as it just passes by a residential area
> along side a freeway. I see most riders coast through it like it doesn't
> exist, but there were two cops on sunday handing out tickets (I happen
> to be a proud owner of one) apparently due to a few accidents (although
> as long as the cyclist stays inside the bike lane, it's the fault of the
> car for hitting it). Besides the casual sunday riders I have yet to see
> a single cyclist even take note of the intersection. Honestly, I feel
> that it's more dangerous to stop in the bike lane since no cyclist I can
> think of expects you to stop. Your thoughts on this?

Do any pedestrians cross the intersection? If so its good to stop!
Also if a bicycle is turning left from the cross street he/she would
most likely be entering the bike lane, so it would be a source of
conflict if you do not stop. (plus cars making wide turns, ya its
their fault but you don't want to be hit by one rgardless) The turning
cyclist should see you but at an all way stop will not be anticipating
you travelling straight through.

Signal that you are stopping before you stop so that riders behind you
can anticipate this. Its probably okay from a safety standpoint just
to yield rather than stop but you also want to be sure not to get a
ticket.

Since these are stop signs I think that stopping should be required at
a T. But I also think that at signalled T-intersections exemptions
should be made that a cyclist can proceed straight through after
stopping and making sure all is clear. (similar to right turns on reds
for all vehicles)

I have nearly been hit while riding a couple of times turning left at
an intersection with the right of way (green light) where a cyclist
blows a red light at a T, and also as a pedestrian nearly hit by
cyclists blowing the red at the T. So you cannot assume that it is
perfectly okay to not stop at T intersections.

Tanya

[R15757]

should be more aware of your surroundings. You should already know if cyclists
are behind you who might make stopping dangerous. If there are cars waiting at
a stop sign, stop lawfully. If there's nobody around, roll through carefully.

Robert

[Fritz M]

Rick Onanian > wrote:

> I originally stopped in this situation, but no longer have the
> balls to stop in the face of that danger.

I'm a little lost. Where's the danger in the illustrated situation?
Getting hit from behind by another cyclist?

There's a similar T-intersection on my commute home, except it's
controlled by a signal instead of a 3-way stop. If the light is red it's
short, so I stop as a courtesy to the other vehicles.

RFM
--
To reply, translate domain from l33+ 2p33|< to alpha.
4=a 0=o 3=e +=t

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
Fritz M +> writes:
> Rick Onanian > wrote:
>
>> I originally stopped in this situation, but no longer have the
>> balls to stop in the face of that danger.
>
> I'm a little lost. Where's the danger in the illustrated situation?

There could be conflict if a cyclists blows through out-of-turn,
and a car simultaneously turns left from the cross street.
The previous-previous poster (bigfloppyllama) mentions there
had already been accidents there; presumably that's why the
enforcement.

So, there's also the "danger" of being stopped by the cops and
getting a ticket.

> Getting hit from behind by another cyclist?

I hope cyclists aren't /that/ blind or unprepared!


cheers,
Tom

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[Robin Hubert]

"Tom Keats" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Fritz M +> writes:
> > Rick Onanian > wrote:
> >
> >> I originally stopped in this situation, but no longer have the
> >> balls to stop in the face of that danger.
> >
> > I'm a little lost. Where's the danger in the illustrated situation?
>
> There could be conflict if a cyclists blows through out-of-turn,
> and a car simultaneously turns left from the cross street.
> The previous-previous poster (bigfloppyllama) mentions there
> had already been accidents there; presumably that's why the
> enforcement.
>
> So, there's also the "danger" of being stopped by the cops and
> getting a ticket.
>
> > Getting hit from behind by another cyclist?
>
> I hope cyclists aren't /that/ blind or unprepared!
>
>

I was so blind/unpreared today that, 3 blocks from work on my 15 mile
commute, I was making a turn and braked when I detected an approaching car
from the right. I braked with my front as I usually do and met a slickened
manhole cover. Bike's ok, I lost skin.



--
Robin Hubert >

[Tom Keats]

In article k.net>,
"Robin Hubert" > writes:

> I was so blind/unpreared today that, 3 blocks from work on my 15 mile
> commute, I was making a turn and braked when I detected an approaching car
> from the right. I braked with my front as I usually do and met a slickened
> manhole cover. Bike's ok, I lost skin.

Ouch. Wish I could upload you a rum & coke for painkiller. Actually,
I wish I could upload you a highball-sized B-52 in an Old Fashioned
glass, with a vanilla bean swizzle ... but I can't afford one of those
right now, myself. Did you go straight down? I hate when that happens;
it happens so fast. On the positive side, as you say, the bike's okay.
And at least there wasn't a tailgating rider to stack on you, and
possibly run over your chainstay.

We've got these waterworks bronze plates/covers imbedded in the streets, I
guess over where valves go. Those things can really sneak up on ya,
'cuz they're so small. They've caught me out a couple of times.
We also used to have really slick white crosswalk paint that got me a
few times while on foot, out in the rain. Fortunately, the city has
changed its paint recipe since then.


Hope you heal quickly,
Tom



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[Eric S. Sande]

>We've got these waterworks bronze plates/covers imbedded in the streets,
>I guess over where valves go. Those things can really sneak up on ya,
>'cuz they're so small. They've caught me out a couple of times.
>We also used to have really slick white crosswalk paint that got me a
>few times while on foot, out in the rain. Fortunately, the city has
>changed its paint recipe since then.

We've got a subway, and I've got a new commute (work moved). The
subway has big grates over it, I'm figuring that they are air exhaust
thingies. Anyway, I never really noticed them before.

When I say big, I mean across the whole lane, like 12 feet square.

Their openings aren't big enough to trap a bicycle wheel, but I
know they are going to be slicker than owl snot in a fresh rain,
and really bad news next winter. I'm still working out the
coexistence details, but the one at 21st and M streets looks
bad because I have to hang a left just after it.

If it ain't Scylla it's Charybdis.

Good features of the new commute include better parking and much
easier access to coffee, bad features are much heavier traffic on
the optimal route and many more red lights. My knee is getting
used to the more frequent accelerations.

Amazing how we adapt, I should have this route under control in a
couple of years.

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[Tom Keats]

In article >,
bigfloppyllama > writes:

> Besides the two intesections like the one I pointed out I stop,
> queue up and go when it's my turn, but it just seems dumb to make
> cyclists succumb to signs that were put in to prevent cars from
> colliding, not bikes.

Well, maybe they were put there to prevent /vehicles/ from
colliding. And some drivers sure seem to have lousy aims.

But I'm not out to browbeat ya. If you can truly, confidently
pull it off without getting clobbered, by all means go for it,
if you don't mind risking getting a ticket. Your call.

There's a stop sign here that I regularly blow through. It's
not at an intersection; it's where some vestigal, paved-over,
abandoned RR tracks once crossed a street. I figure the sign
is still there for cars, because there's still a bit of a bump
there, and cars might bottom-out if they hit it at speed.

I'm not fond of arbitrary & useless rules either. But, I guess
there's no harm in really thinking about them before deciding
they're truly arbitrary & useless.


cheers,
Tom

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[Tom Keats]

In article >,
"Eric S. Sande" > writes:

> When I say big, I mean across the whole lane, like 12 feet square.

So much for bunny-hopping.

> Their openings aren't big enough to trap a bicycle wheel, but I
> know they are going to be slicker than owl snot in a fresh rain,
^^^^^^^^

Claire's delightful way with words lives on. I'm gonna have to
use "scoogying" again, in her honour. I'm still not clear as
to whether scoogying is scooter-propelling one's self with both
feet while straddling the saddle, or doing so with one foot, after
partially dismounting but still standing on one pedal. For now,
I'm opting for the latter.

> and really bad news next winter. I'm still working out the
> coexistence details, but the one at 21st and M streets looks
> bad because I have to hang a left just after it.
>
> If it ain't Scylla it's Charybdis.

I'm gonna have to pull a Fabrizio, and ask if those are STDs.
I've got an old Emerson, Lake & Palmer album, with names of
tunes thatsound like that, on the back of the cover.

> Good features of the new commute include better parking and much
> easier access to coffee
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If the coffee's really good, there ya go! It's worth it! Especially
if you can get decent growlies to go with it, like cinnamon rolls with
sour cream icing.


cheers,
Tom

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[Robin Hubert]

"Tom Keats" > wrote in message
...
> In article k.net>,
> "Robin Hubert" > writes:
>
> > I was so blind/unpreared today that, 3 blocks from work on my 15 mile
> > commute, I was making a turn and braked when I detected an approaching
car
> > from the right. I braked with my front as I usually do and met a
slickened
> > manhole cover. Bike's ok, I lost skin.
>
> Ouch. Wish I could upload you a rum & coke for painkiller. Actually,
> I wish I could upload you a highball-sized B-52 in an Old Fashioned
> glass, with a vanilla bean swizzle ... but I can't afford one of those
> right now, myself. Did you go straight down? I hate when that happens;
> it happens so fast. On the positive side, as you say, the bike's okay.
> And at least there wasn't a tailgating rider to stack on you, and
> possibly run over your chainstay.
>
> We've got these waterworks bronze plates/covers imbedded in the streets, I
> guess over where valves go. Those things can really sneak up on ya,
> 'cuz they're so small. They've caught me out a couple of times.
> We also used to have really slick white crosswalk paint that got me a
> few times while on foot, out in the rain. Fortunately, the city has
> changed its paint recipe since then.
>
>
> Hope you heal quickly,

Thanks for the well-wishes, Tom. In addition to the skinned elbow and left
hip, I am nursing my first ever thrombosed external hemorrhoid. I'm really
freaking ****ed about that (signs that I am getting old). I'm hoping that,
while causing no pain, riding will help resolve the clot. I can't imagine
being off the bike for weeks.



--
Robin Hubert >

[J. Bruce Fields]

In article >,
bigfloppyllama > wrote:
>Section 3 would make it seem like a car turning left at said
>intersection could enter the bicycle lane, but it actually referrs to
>right hand turns when the bicycle lane and traffic lane converge. So,
>technically I *should* be under no danger running the sign.

So if you run the stop sign, simultaneously with a left-turning car
driver drifting into the bike lane, then, congratulations, you were both
in the wrong.

We could find plenty of other situations where it's clearly safe for one
party to break the rules of the road as long as everyone else is
following them. There's a good reason for this--it means that in many
situations, a crash won't happen unless both parties involved make
simultaneous mistakes. A little redundancy here is a good thing.

--Bruce Fields

[Eric S. Sande]

>If the coffee's really good, there ya go! It's worth it! Especially
>if you can get decent growlies to go with it, like cinnamon rolls with
>sour cream icing.

The coffee turns out to be OK, but not the Hi-Test exotics I'm used
to. It's weak but palatable. Not Starbucks but not McDonalds either.

The growlies are OK, it's mainly boiled eggs, grapes and brownies.

Of course the new pitch has a microwave, which means hot oatmeal in
the morning. The CVS (local drugstore chain) across the street
has a really good selection of juices, this is a net improvement.

There is decent Chinese food within walking distance.

I won't expand on the other amenities, it's not all that great
to tell you the truth, but it's a nicer environment, I can park
in the shade, now.

--

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------------------"Buddy Holly, the Texas Elvis"------------------

[mark freedman]

(Roly Poly Man) wrote in message >...

>
> Most of the time I have seen cyclists fly by all the traffic right
> up to the stop sign. Isn't this kind of dangerous? I know it's

I try to ride following the same rules a when I'm
driving. COnsistency simplifies life.


However, I find I'm having problems with exhaust fumes
(especially truck and diesel) so have started to position myself
to avoid having fumes pipe blasting straight into my face (I
should get a hose so that no fumes are lost between the tailpipe
and my lungs). This means slowly / carefully proceeding to
the stop line at a traffic light. If traffic is flowing at a
stop sign, I usually take my position in the line. If it's a
difficult intersection, e.g. a side road and a busy highway,
I'll pull up to the stop line so I'm not sucking fumes for
ten minutes.

Be aware of visibility issues, especially with large trucks.
And those schoolbus side-mirrors are deadly. :-(

(schoolbus drivers are often part-time, and many seem
completely unaware of where the bus is on the road)

>
> On the other hand, I can't see a cyclist entering the queue with
> vehicles. At least I don't think I've ever seen this done.

Why not ? Among other advantages, it annoys the ^%$# out of
drivers :-)
>
> Also, what is the proper way to make a left turn at a typical
> busy 4-lane or 6-lane boulevard? Do you keep to the right and
> make two crossings?

Depends on traffic and your comfort level. I have used
the left-turn lane and done the same turn I'd do in the
mothership, I've ridden across in the curb lane, then
repositioned to wait for the light to change, and I've WALKED
across the pedestrian crossing and then remounted to wait for
the light to change the other way. Some intersections are just
plain ugly, and I have enough gray hair.

Everyone develops their own comfort levels and
practices. These are just practices I've adopted, which may not
conform to the strict letter of the law, and may not suit other
cyclists.

hth