Nearly got into an accident

[PatTX[_2_]]

So, there I was, riding straight down the street on the right side about 2
feet from the curb, when a driver passed me and then immediately turned
right! It was one of those "time-slows-down" moments, but I managed to brake
just enough to avoid hitting the car's right rear tire. The teen driver
didn't even notice, but the older woman waiting to pull out from that side
street was astonished. It's amazing how much you can notice when time is
standing still....

I got to thinking, "How could I be safer" and the only thing I can think of
is to check in my mirror for overtaking drivers each and every time as I
approach a cross street. Can anyone think of something else?

Pat in TX

[[email protected]]

On Dec 13, 2:15*pm, "PatTX" > wrote:
> So, there I was, riding straight down the street on the right side about 2
> feet from the curb, when a driver passed me and then immediately turned
> right! It was one of those "time-slows-down" moments, but I managed to brake
> just enough to avoid hitting the car's right rear tire. The teen driver
> didn't even notice, but the older woman waiting to pull out from that side
> street was astonished. It's amazing how much you can notice when time is
> standing still....
>
> I got to thinking, "How could I be safer" and the only thing I can think of
> is to check in my mirror for overtaking drivers each and every time as I
> approach a cross street. Can anyone think of something else?
>
> Pat in TX

there really is nothing you can do to prevent that; crossstreets,
driveways, parking lots they're everywhere as are the idiots who pass
and block you with their car. hell, a simple short ride got me like
that ten years ago some girl driving her dads car ( who probabally
only drove a few goats there before being allowed to drive a 2000kg
car over here) ; front tooth, busted nose, I might have even lost an
eye by the extent of the gouges left on my brikos. you can ride slower
so the inertia doesn't carry you forward so much when you need to
emergency stop but that is quite anethama to the joy of cycling

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
"PatTX" > writes:
> So, there I was, riding straight down the street on the right side about 2
> feet from the curb, when a driver passed me and then immediately turned
> right! It was one of those "time-slows-down" moments, but I managed to brake
> just enough to avoid hitting the car's right rear tire. The teen driver
> didn't even notice, but the older woman waiting to pull out from that side
> street was astonished. It's amazing how much you can notice when time is
> standing still....
>
> I got to thinking, "How could I be safer" and the only thing I can think of
> is to check in my mirror for overtaking drivers each and every time as I
> approach a cross street. Can anyone think of something else?

Whenever I approach intersections I like to move somewhat
to the left when I can safely do so. It makes it that
much more difficult for upcoming drivers to pull off the
ol' right hook. I realize it goes against a rider's grain
when you just want to maintain a nice, straight line, but
it works.

Two feet from the curb sounds a little marginal to me.
I like at least a yard. I find that distance is less
of an invitation to overtaking drivers to pretend I'm
not even there, while still allowing them to steer
around me. If they want to turn right (in front of me)
they'd first have to veer left to get around me. Most
drivers would rather not have to go through all that
effort. I guess the trick is to not make it easy for
'em, but at the same time, not making it annoyingly
difficult. A balancing act.

In zones which are heavily shadowed by nearby trees
or buildings, I'll take even more street, to maintain
my visibility. Most of the near-miss right-hookings
I've seen of riders ahead of me, have happened in
heavily shadowed areas while the rider was positioned
more to the right than I'd be comfortable with.
It's all too easy to become lost in the shadows.

John Forester recommends we riders position ourselves
not by distance from the curb, but around the right
tire tracks of the ambient motorized traffic.
That works pretty good "in general" but we still have
to bear in mind other considerations, like shadows,
driveways, parking lot entrances/exits, intersections, &c.

There's a lot more granularity to picking a line with
sufficient wriggle room & escape routes in urban traffic
than Forester indicates.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
writes:
> On Dec 13, 2:15*pm, "PatTX" > wrote:
>> So, there I was, riding straight down the street on the right side about 2
>> feet from the curb, when a driver passed me and then immediately turned
>> right! It was one of those "time-slows-down" moments, but I managed to brake
>> just enough to avoid hitting the car's right rear tire. The teen driver
>> didn't even notice, but the older woman waiting to pull out from that side
>> street was astonished. It's amazing how much you can notice when time is
>> standing still....
>>
>> I got to thinking, "How could I be safer" and the only thing I can think of
>> is to check in my mirror for overtaking drivers each and every time as I
>> approach a cross street. Can anyone think of something else?
>>
>> Pat in TX
> there really is nothing you can do to prevent that; crossstreets,
> driveways, parking lots they're everywhere as are the idiots who pass
> and block you with their car.

There is /much/ a rider can do, and it begins with one's attitude.

> hell, a simple short ride got me like
> that ten years ago some girl driving her dads car ( who probabally
> only drove a few goats there before being allowed to drive a 2000kg
> car over here) ; front tooth, busted nose, I might have even lost an
> eye by the extent of the gouges left on my brikos. you can ride slower
> so the inertia doesn't carry you forward so much when you need to
> emergency stop but that is quite anethama to the joy of cycling

I recommend a perusal of the book: The Art of Urban Cycling:
Lessons From the Street, by Robert Hurst. It'll verify &
articulate a bunch of stuff you've already subconciously
figured out, and provide you with some more insights that
just might come in handy.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[[email protected]]

On Dec 13, 3:54*pm, (Tom Keats) wrote:
> In article >,
> * * * * writes:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 13, 2:15*pm, "PatTX" > wrote:
> >> So, there I was, riding straight down the street on the right side about 2
> >> feet from the curb, when a driver passed me and then immediately turned
> >> right! It was one of those "time-slows-down" moments, but I managed to brake
> >> just enough to avoid hitting the car's right rear tire. The teen driver
> >> didn't even notice, but the older woman waiting to pull out from that side
> >> street was astonished. It's amazing how much you can notice when time is
> >> standing still....
>
> >> I got to thinking, "How could I be safer" and the only thing I can think of
> >> is to check in my mirror for overtaking drivers each and every time as I
> >> approach a cross street. Can anyone think of something else?
>
> >> Pat in TX
> > there really is nothing you can do to prevent that; crossstreets,
> > driveways, parking lots they're everywhere as are the idiots who pass
> > and block you with their car.
>
> There is /much/ a rider can do, and it begins with one's attitude.
>
> > hell, a simple short ride got me like
> > that ten years ago some girl driving her dads car ( who probabally
> > only drove a few goats there before being allowed to drive a 2000kg
> > car over here) ; front tooth, busted nose, I might have even lost an
> > eye by the extent of the gouges left on my brikos. you can ride slower
> > so the inertia doesn't carry you forward so much when you need to
> > emergency stop but that is quite anethama to the joy of cycling
>
> I recommend a perusal of the book: The Art of Urban Cycling:
> Lessons From the Street, by Robert Hurst. *It'll verify &
> articulate a bunch of stuff you've already subconciously
> figured out, and provide you with some more insights that
> just might come in handy.
>
> cheers,
> * * * * Tom
>
> --
> Nothing is safe from me.
> I'm really at:
> tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

no, she was just plain old stupid, she went into the other lane to
pass me then braked making a sharp turn right in front of me; I was
doing about 35kph when this happened; there was no reason she had to
pass me

[Jorg Lueke]

On Dec 13, 1:15*pm, "PatTX" > wrote:
> So, there I was, riding straight down the street on the right side about 2
> feet from the curb, when a driver passed me and then immediately turned
> right! It was one of those "time-slows-down" moments, but I managed to brake
> just enough to avoid hitting the car's right rear tire. The teen driver
> didn't even notice, but the older woman waiting to pull out from that side
> street was astonished. It's amazing how much you can notice when time is
> standing still....
>
> I got to thinking, "How could I be safer" and the only thing I can think of
> is to check in my mirror for overtaking drivers each and every time as I
> approach a cross street. Can anyone think of something else?
>
> Pat in TX

No matter how much attention you pay you can't avoid the completely
oblivious.
Before my accident I had two close calls. One was a guy making a left
turn on green
when I was going staight. The other was a guy who was goign away to
fast in a turn lane and almost rear ended me. So now I am going to
avoid the faster/busier route. I also go all the way to the edge on
the turn lane to minimize the risk of being hit.

[Jeff[_6_]]

PatTX wrote:
> So, there I was, riding straight down the street on the right side about 2
> feet from the curb, when a driver passed me and then immediately turned
> right! It was one of those "time-slows-down" moments, but I managed to brake
> just enough to avoid hitting the car's right rear tire. The teen driver
> didn't even notice, but the older woman waiting to pull out from that side
> street was astonished. It's amazing how much you can notice when time is
> standing still....
>
> I got to thinking, "How could I be safer" and the only thing I can think of
> is to check in my mirror for overtaking drivers each and every time as I
> approach a cross street. Can anyone think of something else?
>
> Pat in TX
>
>
I like to ride a bit further out from the curb as I find it makes me
more noticeable (if a bit more annoying) to the powered traffic. To
those who complain that I should be riding as close to the curb as
practicable, my response is that I ride as close as I can while still be
noticed by other traffic. If other road users do not notice me, my
position is impractical.

<tongueincheek>
The other option is a good handgun. Won't prevent the immediate
incident, but it will prevent future incidents from that particular driver.
</tongueincheek>

Sadly, walking is no safer. Thursday past, walking from the bus stop to
my office (4 blocks), I had TWO incidents in which I was almost hit
while legally crossing the road. If it wasn't for the ice on the roads,
I'd ride my bike - safer than walking from the bus stop.

[Martin Borsje[_6_]]

expressed precisely :
> On Dec 13, 3:54*pm, (Tom Keats) wrote:
>> In article
>> >, * * * *
>> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 13, 2:15*pm, "PatTX" > wrote:
>>>> So, there I was, riding straight down the street on the right side about 2
>>>> feet from the curb, when a driver passed me and then immediately turned
>>>> right! It was one of those "time-slows-down" moments, but I managed to
>>>> brake just enough to avoid hitting the car's right rear tire. The teen
>>>> driver didn't even notice, but the older woman waiting to pull out from
>>>> that side street was astonished. It's amazing how much you can notice when
>>>> time is standing still....
>>
>>>> I got to thinking, "How could I be safer" and the only thing I can think
>>>> of is to check in my mirror for overtaking drivers each and every time as
>>>> I approach a cross street. Can anyone think of something else?
>>>> Pat in TX
>>> there really is nothing you can do to prevent that; crossstreets,
>>> driveways, parking lots they're everywhere as are the idiots who pass
>>> and block you with their car.
>>
>> There is /much/ a rider can do, and it begins with one's attitude.
>>
>>> hell, a simple short ride got me like
>>> that ten years ago some girl driving her dads car ( who probabally
>>> only drove a few goats there before being allowed to drive a 2000kg
>>> car over here) ; front tooth, busted nose, I might have even lost an
>>> eye by the extent of the gouges left on my brikos. you can ride slower
>>> so the inertia doesn't carry you forward so much when you need to
>>> emergency stop but that is quite anethama to the joy of cycling
>>
>> I recommend a perusal of the book: The Art of Urban Cycling:
>> Lessons From the Street, by Robert Hurst. *It'll verify &
>> articulate a bunch of stuff you've already subconciously
>> figured out, and provide you with some more insights that
>> just might come in handy.
>>
>> cheers,
>> * * * * Tom
>>
>> --
>> Nothing is safe from me.
>> I'm really at:
>> tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> no, she was just plain old stupid, she went into the other lane to
> pass me then braked making a sharp turn right in front of me; I was
> doing about 35kph when this happened; there was no reason she had to
> pass me

Most likely she didn't even see you at all!

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
writes:

> no, she was just plain old stupid, she went into the other lane to
> pass me then braked making a sharp turn right in front of me; I was
> doing about 35kph when this happened; there was no reason she had to
> pass me

When many people see a bicycle ahead of them, they've just
gotta get ahead of it. They've /just gotta/. It's all
really quite predictable and expectable. It's like some
sort of innate instinct people have. Even fellow cyclists
aren't immune to this effect -- if you're stopped at a red
traffic light, some of them will butt-in in front of you and
the stop line, to wait out the light. And if you're walking
your bike on the sidewalk, pedestrians behind you will bust
their asses to get ahead of you.

I don't know why it is, but so many people see bicycles as
obstructions and obstacles, even if you're going faster
than they are. Even if they're riding bikes themselves.
When riders realize this, we become armed with an enhanced
ability to interact with, and even predict the movements of
surrounding traffic.

So, there actually /is/ a reason she "had" to pass you --
it was pathologically hardwired in her psyche.

I fear the tone of my posts might sound like I'm calling
you stupid; please believe me, I have no such intention.

The driver who cut you off was being stupid, because she
was acting in a thoughtless, "reptillian brain" mode. I'm
just saying: that's how a lot of people act on the streets.
It doesn't hurt to be aware of that. We can often even use
it to our advantage. I call it "reading their minds" but
it really isn't anything so esoteric. In fact it's dirt
simple. People are so predictable. That's how advertising
agencies and casinos make so much money.

That said, there certainly are occasions where synchronicity
works against us, and we wind up as sitting ducks for
inescapably imminent consequences that seem to be aimed by
Fate directly at us.

I'm glad you came out of the incident unscathed.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Roger Zoul]

"PatTX" > .net...

>
> I got to thinking, "How could I be safer" and the only thing I can think
> of is to check in my mirror for overtaking drivers each and every time as
> I approach a cross street. Can anyone think of something else?
>

Glad you're ok, Pat.

I think you should definitely look for overtaking driving each and every
time you pass a cross street. I thought everyone did this. Also, you should
also consider moving to the left [to center of lane] a bit if the traffic
allows. I think being too close to the right edge of the road can result in
drivers on the cross street not seeing you.

[Peter Cole[_2_]]

PatTX wrote:
> So, there I was, riding straight down the street on the right side about 2
> feet from the curb, when a driver passed me and then immediately turned
> right! It was one of those "time-slows-down" moments, but I managed to brake
> just enough to avoid hitting the car's right rear tire. The teen driver
> didn't even notice, but the older woman waiting to pull out from that side
> street was astonished. It's amazing how much you can notice when time is
> standing still....
>
> I got to thinking, "How could I be safer" and the only thing I can think of
> is to check in my mirror for overtaking drivers each and every time as I
> approach a cross street. Can anyone think of something else?
>
> Pat in TX
>
>

Unfortunately this is a common hazard, AKA "right hook". Depending on
the severity of the car's brake/turn, one's options become limited. I'm
a believer in "situational awareness" and so cycle with a rear view
mirror. It is impossible to anticipate a passing car's intention to turn
in your path, so knowing a car is passing is incomplete knowledge at
best (unless they're signaling). Besides being visible (lighting, lane
position, etc.) the best bet is to prepare either to stop or turn with
the car when approaching an intersection with a vehicle in a passing
position. Practically speaking this means general wariness and reducing
speed appropriately. If you assume every passing vehicle may right hook
then you won't be surprised when one does. Ditto for left hooks.

I think the problem arises because either the motorist doesn't see the
cyclist, or more likely, underestimates the cyclist's speed. It's a
particular problem for fast cyclists since drivers seem to assume a much
lower speed. Right hooks are especially lethal with large vehicles like
trucks and buses. Drivers of long wheelbase vehicles usually start the
turn late, so they may appear to be going straight until the last
second. Cyclists frequently wind up under the wheels.

Cars can stop faster than bikes, so a cyclist is vulnerable to a
collision in a panic stop. I first learned this the hard way 40 years
ago when I rear-ended a Chevy and wound up on the guy's trunk. Learning
how to brake a bike at the maximum rate is an important skill that, from
what I've seen, is pretty uncommon even among regular cyclists. It's
worth practicing (frequently)*. There's no way you can prevent 100% of
car-hitting-bike collisions (which are fortunately rare), but you should
be able to prevent almost all bike-hitting-car collisions just by
slowing down and preparing for the inevitable failure to yield violations.

In your case, you managed to avoid the collision -- although it was a
close call. You weren't taken completely by surprise and managed to
brake hard and keep the bike under control. I'd say you handled it. I
always ask myself, just as you are asking us, what could I have done to
have eliminated the close call, feeling that every close call is a
warning that the next time might not be so lucky. It's a statistical
game. You'll never get the risk to zero, but maybe reducing your speed
slightly and head/mirror checks will make the too close call into a not
too close call.

*The thing I like about mountain biking in this context is that it
really sharpens bike handling skills. Situations that are pretty rare in
road biking are "every ride" in mountain biking. Many of these skills
become reflexively trained after enough repetition.

[[email protected]]

On Dec 13, 1:15*pm, "PatTX" > wrote:
> So, there I was, riding straight down the street on the right side about 2
> feet from the curb, when a driver passed me and then immediately turned
> right! It was one of those "time-slows-down" moments, but I managed to brake
> just enough to avoid hitting the car's right rear tire. The teen driver
> didn't even notice, but the older woman waiting to pull out from that side
> street was astonished. It's amazing how much you can notice when time is
> standing still....
>
> I got to thinking, "How could I be safer" and the only thing I can think of
> is to check in my mirror for overtaking drivers each and every time as I
> approach a cross street. Can anyone think of something else?
>
> Pat in TX

Keeping one eye in your mirror is a great idea, Pat but people who
make this idiotic move that you describe, typically don't signal
before turning, so it is kind of a 'crap shoot' in my opinion and you
just have to be prepared for ALL drivers to be idiots.

Glad you weren't injured.

Lewis.

*****

[Frank Krygowski[_2_]]

On Dec 13, 2:15*pm, "PatTX" > wrote:
> So, there I was, riding straight down the street on the right side about 2
> feet from the curb, when a driver passed me and then immediately turned
> right!

As others noted, that's called a "right hook." It's a common cause of
car-bike crashes. I think it's helpful to know the vocubulary,
because it keeps you more aware.

> It was one of those "time-slows-down" moments, but I managed to brake
> just enough to avoid hitting the car's right rear tire. The teen driver
> didn't even notice, but the older woman waiting to pull out from that side
> street was astonished. It's amazing how much you can notice when time is
> standing still....
>
> I got to thinking, "How could I be safer" and the only thing I can think of
> is to check in my mirror for overtaking drivers each and every time as I
> approach a cross street. Can anyone think of something else?

I think two feet from the curb is too far right in most urban
situations. I'd feel vulnerable there, because I'd be blending into
the scenery, not viewed as a vehicle on the road.

If you ride further left, you're much more likely to be noticed; and
if that fails, you've got more room to escape. (The best counter-move
to a right hook is an instant turn hard right, staying inside the
car's path - and maybe beating on the side of the car when you're
within reach!)

If there's any hint a following vehicle may turn right across my path,
I move even further left. Control the lane, and wake them up. And on
the few instances when someone's attempted a right hook despite my
lane taking, I've been able to stop them by yelling at them and waving
them back.

I do use a mirror, too, and near intersections, I check nearly every
car that's approaching from behind for just that reason. But keep
track of the forward direction too!

- Frank Krygowski

[[email protected]]

On Dec 14, 3:56*am, Martin Borsje > wrote:
> expressed precisely :
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 13, 3:54*pm, (Tom Keats) wrote:
> >> In article
> >> >, * * * *
> >> writes:
>
> >>> On Dec 13, 2:15*pm, "PatTX" > wrote:
> >>>> So, there I was, riding straight down the street on the right side about 2
> >>>> feet from the curb, when a driver passed me and then immediately turned
> >>>> right! It was one of those "time-slows-down" moments, but I managed to
> >>>> brake just enough to avoid hitting the car's right rear tire. The teen
> >>>> driver didn't even notice, but the older woman waiting to pull out from
> >>>> that side street was astonished. It's amazing how much you can notice when
> >>>> time is standing still....
>
> >>>> I got to thinking, "How could I be safer" and the only thing I can think
> >>>> of is to check in my mirror for overtaking drivers each and every time as
> >>>> I approach a cross street. Can anyone think of something else?
> >>>> Pat in TX
> >>> there really is nothing you can do to prevent that; crossstreets,
> >>> driveways, parking lots they're everywhere as are the idiots who pass
> >>> and block you with their car.
>
> >> There is /much/ a rider can do, and it begins with one's attitude.
>
> >>> hell, a simple short ride got me like
> >>> that ten years ago some girl driving her dads car ( who probabally
> >>> only drove a few goats there before being allowed to drive a 2000kg
> >>> car over here) ; front tooth, busted nose, I might have even lost an
> >>> eye by the extent of the gouges left on my brikos. you can ride slower
> >>> so the inertia doesn't carry you forward so much when you need to
> >>> emergency stop but that is quite anethama to the joy of cycling
>
> >> I recommend a perusal of the book: The Art of Urban Cycling:
> >> Lessons From the Street, by Robert Hurst. *It'll verify &
> >> articulate a bunch of stuff you've already subconciously
> >> figured out, and provide you with some more insights that
> >> just might come in handy.
>
> >> cheers,
> >> * * * * Tom
>
> >> --
> >> Nothing is safe from me.
> >> I'm really at:
> >> tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > no, she was just plain old stupid, she went into the other lane to
> > pass me then braked making a sharp turn right in front of me; I was
> > doing about 35kph when this happened; there was no reason she had to
> > pass me
>
> Most likely she didn't even see you at all!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

no she did, she said so in the statement to police (she was charged
and pleaded guilty) which was brought up when I met with the insurance
agent. The onlt good thing was she was with state farm and they didn't
try to dick me around- which is the only appropiate way to deal with a
victim of an accident.

[[email protected]]

Tom Keats wrote:

>> no, she was just plain old stupid, she went into the other lane to
>> pass me then braked making a sharp turn right in front of me; I was
>> doing about 35kph when this happened; there was no reason she had
>> to pass me

> When many people see a bicycle ahead of them, they've just gotta get
> ahead of it. They've /just gotta/. It's all really quite
> predictable and expectable. It's like some sort of innate instinct
> people have. Even fellow cyclists aren't immune to this effect --
> if you're stopped at a red traffic light, some of them will butt-in
> in front of you and the stop line, to wait out the light. And if
> you're walking your bike on the sidewalk, pedestrians behind you
> will bust their asses to get ahead of you.

> I don't know why it is, but so many people see bicycles as
> obstructions and obstacles, even if you're going faster than they
> are. Even if they're riding bikes themselves. When riders realize
> this, we become armed with an enhanced ability to interact with, and
> even predict the movements of surrounding traffic.

> So, there actually /is/ a reason she "had" to pass you -- it was
> pathologically hardwired in her psyche.

As you said, "Even if they're riding bikes themselves." This is
apparent when I read of other car/bicycle interactions on this NG. I
think many wreck.bike readers should take lessons from bike messengers
who don't have these problems. In city traffic, I have been riding in
that style for many years without problem. I am surprised that police
cruisers ignore my law violations (as righteous bicyclists call it).
On top of that, as I reported on one of these topics, I found London
(GB) traffic even more accommodating in that matter.

> I fear the tone of my posts might sound like I'm calling you stupid;
> please believe me, I have no such intention.

Not to worry, the "take the lane" riders volunteer to raise their
hands when a roll call of stupid riders is taken. I don't understand
why so many riders feel so superior to their fellow humans when riding
bicycles.

> The driver who cut you off was being stupid, because she was acting
> in a thoughtless, "reptilian brain" mode. I'm just saying: that's
> how a lot of people act on the streets. It doesn't hurt to be aware
> of that. We can often even use it to our advantage. I call it
> "reading their minds" but it really isn't anything so esoteric. In
> fact it's dirt simple. People are so predictable. That's how
> advertising agencies and casinos make so much money.

Well said!

> That said, there certainly are occasions where synchronicity works
> against us, and we wind up as sitting ducks for inescapably imminent
> consequences that seem to be aimed by Fate directly at us.

> I'm glad you came out of the incident unscathed.

Unscathed, but was anything learned? In such a position I don't watch
the car but rather the driver's head and direction of attention as
well as the steering angle of the cars wheels... and don't wear
headphones because there is much information about cars approaching
from behind in tire and engine sounds.

Jobst Brandt

[[email protected]]

Roger Zoul wrote:

> "PatTX" > .net...

>> I got to thinking, "How could I be safer" and the only thing I can
>> think of is to check in my mirror for overtaking drivers each and
>> every time as I approach a cross street. Can anyone think of
>> something else?

> Glad you're OK, Pat.

> I think you should definitely look for overtaking driving each and
> every time you pass a cross street. I thought everyone did this.
> Also, you should also consider moving to the left [to center of
> lane] a bit if the traffic allows. I think being too close to the
> right edge of the road can result in drivers on the cross street not
> seeing you.

Of course this works mainly when bicycling in downtown traffic at
about the same speed as cars are moving, otherwise it's obstructionist
and causes other bad responses from motorists.

Jobst Brandt

[[email protected]]

Lewis who? wrote:

>> So, there I was, riding straight down the street on the right side
>> about 2 feet from the curb, when a driver passed me and then
>> immediately turned right! It was one of those "time-slows-down"
>> moments, but I managed to brake just enough to avoid hitting the
>> car's right rear tire. The teen driver didn't even notice, but the
>> older woman waiting to pull out from that side street was
>> astonished. It's amazing how much you can notice when time is
>> standing still...

>> I got to thinking, "How could I be safer" and the only thing I can
>> think of is to check in my mirror for overtaking drivers each and
>> every time as I approach a cross street. Can anyone think of
>> something else?

> Keeping one eye in your mirror is a great idea, Pat but people who
> make this idiotic move that you describe, typically don't signal
> before turning, so it is kind of a 'crap shoot' in my opinion and
> you just have to be prepared for ALL drivers to be idiots.

Yes, I'm OK but the rest of traffic is all morons. I guess the
bicycle superiority complex common. The rear view mirror folks seem
to be at the head of the group in this respect. Notice that there are
no rear view mirrors seen in bicycle races.

Jobst Brandt

[PatTX[_2_]]

: If you ride further left, you're much more likely to be noticed; and
: if that fails, you've got more room to escape. (The best counter-move
: to a right hook is an instant turn hard right, staying inside the
: car's path - and maybe beating on the side of the car when you're
: within reach!)
:
: If there's any hint a following vehicle may turn right across my path,
: I move even further left. Control the lane, and wake them up. And on
: the few instances when someone's attempted a right hook despite my
: lane taking, I've been able to stop them by yelling at them and waving
: them back.
:
: I do use a mirror, too, and near intersections, I check nearly every
: car that's approaching from behind for just that reason. But keep
: track of the forward direction too!
:
: - Frank Krygowski

Thanks for the idea of quickly turning right with the car. I hadn't thought
of that. I don't know if it makes a difference with the idea of using a
mirror at intersections, but this was a T intersection to the right. The
road had two wide lanes and most cars on this particular road will move into
the left lane to pass. That's why I wasn't "taking the lane"--because people
hereabouts just automatically move into the other lane to pass a bicyclist.
I was lulled by my past experiences riding on this particular road out in
the suburbs....

Pat in TX

[Roger Zoul]

> wrote in message
...
> Roger Zoul wrote:
>
>> "PatTX" > .net...
>
>>> I got to thinking, "How could I be safer" and the only thing I can
>>> think of is to check in my mirror for overtaking drivers each and
>>> every time as I approach a cross street. Can anyone think of
>>> something else?
>
>> Glad you're OK, Pat.
>
>> I think you should definitely look for overtaking driving each and
>> every time you pass a cross street. I thought everyone did this.
>> Also, you should also consider moving to the left [to center of
>> lane] a bit if the traffic allows. I think being too close to the
>> right edge of the road can result in drivers on the cross street not
>> seeing you.
>
> Of course this works mainly when bicycling in downtown traffic at
> about the same speed as cars are moving, otherwise it's obstructionist
> and causes other bad responses from motorists.
>
> Jobst Brandt

How is it obstructionist to move to the left a bit if the traffic allows?
It's kinda hard [not to mention dangerous] to move into traffic the traffic
doesn't allow it.

[Roger Zoul]

> wrote in message
...
> Tom Keats wrote:
>
>>> no, she was just plain old stupid, she went into the other lane to
>>> pass me then braked making a sharp turn right in front of me; I was
>>> doing about 35kph when this happened; there was no reason she had
>>> to pass me
>
>> When many people see a bicycle ahead of them, they've just gotta get
>> ahead of it. They've /just gotta/. It's all really quite
>> predictable and expectable. It's like some sort of innate instinct
>> people have. Even fellow cyclists aren't immune to this effect --
>> if you're stopped at a red traffic light, some of them will butt-in
>> in front of you and the stop line, to wait out the light. And if
>> you're walking your bike on the sidewalk, pedestrians behind you
>> will bust their asses to get ahead of you.
>
>> I don't know why it is, but so many people see bicycles as
>> obstructions and obstacles, even if you're going faster than they
>> are. Even if they're riding bikes themselves. When riders realize
>> this, we become armed with an enhanced ability to interact with, and
>> even predict the movements of surrounding traffic.
>
>> So, there actually /is/ a reason she "had" to pass you -- it was
>> pathologically hardwired in her psyche.
>
> As you said, "Even if they're riding bikes themselves." This is
> apparent when I read of other car/bicycle interactions on this NG. I
> think many wreck.bike readers should take lessons from bike messengers
> who don't have these problems. In city traffic, I have been riding in
> that style for many years without problem. I am surprised that police
> cruisers ignore my law violations (as righteous bicyclists call it).
> On top of that, as I reported on one of these topics, I found London
> (GB) traffic even more accommodating in that matter.
>
>> I fear the tone of my posts might sound like I'm calling you stupid;
>> please believe me, I have no such intention.
>
> Not to worry, the "take the lane" riders volunteer to raise their
> hands when a roll call of stupid riders is taken. I don't understand
> why so many riders feel so superior to their fellow humans when riding
> bicycles.
>
>> The driver who cut you off was being stupid, because she was acting
>> in a thoughtless, "reptilian brain" mode. I'm just saying: that's
>> how a lot of people act on the streets. It doesn't hurt to be aware
>> of that. We can often even use it to our advantage. I call it
>> "reading their minds" but it really isn't anything so esoteric. In
>> fact it's dirt simple. People are so predictable. That's how
>> advertising agencies and casinos make so much money.
>
> Well said!
>
>> That said, there certainly are occasions where synchronicity works
>> against us, and we wind up as sitting ducks for inescapably imminent
>> consequences that seem to be aimed by Fate directly at us.
>
>> I'm glad you came out of the incident unscathed.
>
> Unscathed, but was anything learned? In such a position I don't watch
> the car but rather the driver's head and direction of attention as
> well as the steering angle of the cars wheels... and don't wear
> headphones because there is much information about cars approaching
> from behind in tire and engine sounds.
>
> Jobst Brandt

Hmm...so you don't wear a mirror but yet you have the ability to watch every
driver's head and direction of attention as well as the steering angle of
the cars wheels...in traffic for all cars coming up behind you? I guess
this is an example of the Jobst Brandt superiorty at work.

[[email protected]]

Roger Zoul wrote:

>>> "PatTX" > .net...

>>>> I got to thinking, "How could I be safer" and the only thing I
>>>> can think of is to check in my mirror for overtaking drivers each
>>>> and every time as I approach a cross street. Can anyone think of
>>>> something else?

>>> Glad you're OK, Pat.

>>> I think you should definitely look for overtaking driving each and
>>> every time you pass a cross street. I thought everyone did this.
>>> Also, you should also consider moving to the left [to center of
>>> lane] a bit if the traffic allows. I think being too close to the
>>> right edge of the road can result in drivers on the cross street
>>> not seeing you.

>> Of course this works mainly when bicycling in downtown traffic at
>> about the same speed as cars are moving, otherwise it's
>> obstructionist and causes other bad responses from motorists.

> How is it obstructionist to move to the left a bit if the traffic
> allows? It's kinda hard [not to mention dangerous] to move into
> traffic the traffic doesn't allow it.

Watch some bicycle messenger videos. Traffic on local main streets
don't reach 20mph most of the time. On rare occasions I get crowded
by drifting drivers, so I slap the car on the roof as a wake up. It
works.

Jobst Brandt

[[email protected]]

Roger Zoul wrote:

>>>> no, she was just plain old stupid, she went into the other lane
>>>> to pass me then braked making a sharp turn right in front of me;
>>>> I was doing about 35kph when this happened; there was no reason
>>>> she had to pass me

>>> When many people see a bicycle ahead of them, they've just gotta
>>> get ahead of it. They've /just gotta/. It's all really quite
>>> predictable and expectable. It's like some sort of innate
>>> instinct people have. Even fellow cyclists aren't immune to this
>>> effect -- if you're stopped at a red traffic light, some of them
>>> will butt-in in front of you and the stop line, to wait out the
>>> light. And if you're walking your bike on the sidewalk,
>>> pedestrians behind you will bust their asses to get ahead of you.

>>> I don't know why it is, but so many people see bicycles as
>>> obstructions and obstacles, even if you're going faster than they
>>> are. Even if they're riding bikes themselves. When riders
>>> realize this, we become armed with an enhanced ability to interact
>>> with, and even predict the movements of surrounding traffic.

>>> So, there actually /is/ a reason she "had" to pass you -- it was
>>> pathologically hardwired in her psyche.

>> As you said, "Even if they're riding bikes themselves." This is
>> apparent when I read of other car/bicycle interactions on this NG.
>> I think many wreck.bike readers should take lessons from bike
>> messengers who don't have these problems. In city traffic, I have
>> been riding in that style for many years without problem. I am
>> surprised that police cruisers ignore my law violations (as
>> righteous bicyclists call it). On top of that, as I reported on
>> one of these topics, I found London (GB) traffic even more
>> accommodating in that matter.

>>> I fear the tone of my posts might sound like I'm calling you
>>> stupid; please believe me, I have no such intention.

>> Not to worry, the "take the lane" riders volunteer to raise their
>> hands when a roll call of stupid riders is taken. I don't
>> understand why so many riders feel so superior to their fellow
>> humans when riding bicycles.

>>> The driver who cut you off was being stupid, because she was
>>> acting in a thoughtless, "reptilian brain" mode. I'm just saying:
>>> that's how a lot of people act on the streets. It doesn't hurt to
>>> be aware of that. We can often even use it to our advantage. I
>>> call it "reading their minds" but it really isn't anything so
>>> esoteric. In fact it's dirt simple. People are so predictable.
>>> That's how advertising agencies and casinos make so much money.

>> Well said!

>>> That said, there certainly are occasions where synchronicity works
>>> against us, and we wind up as sitting ducks for inescapably
>>> imminent consequences that seem to be aimed by Fate directly at
>>> us.

>>> I'm glad you came out of the incident unscathed.

>> Unscathed, but was anything learned? In such a position I don't
>> watch the car but rather the driver's head and direction of
>> attention as well as the steering angle of the cars wheels... and
>> don't wear headphones because there is much information about cars
>> approaching from behind in tire and engine sounds.

> Hmm... so you don't wear a mirror but yet you have the ability to
> watch every driver's head and direction of attention as well as the
> steering angle of the cars wheels... in traffic for all cars coming
> up behind you? I guess this is an example of the Jobst Brandt
> superiorty at work.

Stop concocting fairy tales. Cars behind cannot cut off a bicyclist,
not until the car is ahead or at least abreast of the bicycle. It is
at this time that critical observations can be made. A mirror is not
useful in assessing when a driver will make a right turn or dive into
a parking space, but careful observations can. I'll bet you've never
seen a city bike messenger with a rear view mirror.

Jobst Brandt

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
"PatTX" > writes:
>: If you ride further left, you're much more likely to be noticed; and
>: if that fails, you've got more room to escape. (The best counter-move
>: to a right hook is an instant turn hard right, staying inside the
>: car's path - and maybe beating on the side of the car when you're
>: within reach!)
>:
>: If there's any hint a following vehicle may turn right across my path,
>: I move even further left. Control the lane, and wake them up. And on
>: the few instances when someone's attempted a right hook despite my
>: lane taking, I've been able to stop them by yelling at them and waving
>: them back.
>:
>: I do use a mirror, too, and near intersections, I check nearly every
>: car that's approaching from behind for just that reason. But keep
>: track of the forward direction too!
>:
>: - Frank Krygowski
>
> Thanks for the idea of quickly turning right with the car. I hadn't thought
> of that. I don't know if it makes a difference with the idea of using a
> mirror at intersections, but this was a T intersection to the right. The
> road had two wide lanes and most cars on this particular road will move into
> the left lane to pass. That's why I wasn't "taking the lane"--because people
> hereabouts just automatically move into the other lane to pass a bicyclist.
> I was lulled by my past experiences riding on this particular road out in
> the suburbs....

The "Instant Turn" of which Frank speaks is a specific
technique that isn't quite as easy as it sounds. It
involves initially quickly countersteering your bike
toward the car in order to get enough lean to make a
~tight~ turn away from the car.

The part about steering toward the car is the hard
part -- it takes some conscious effort to overcome
our instinctive reactions to avoid the car. But
it's still a worthwhile technique to acquire through
practice (in an empty parking lot, with no cars around.)

The terms: "instant turn" "rock dodge" "panic stop" are
probably all quite Google-able. Those are good skills to
have. I believe they're covered in Frank's Bicycling Life
website
http://www.bicyclinglife.com


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Stephen Harding]

wrote:
>
> well as the steering angle of the cars wheels... and don't wear
> headphones because there is much information about cars approaching
> from behind in tire and engine sounds.

I'm not finding that to be the case.

The past two months I've been learning Italian via iPod
and earphones while doing the work commute.

I was surprised how well I could still hear vehicles
behind me, to the point that when close behind and
beside me, I really had trouble hearing the lessons.

I'm believing more than ever that a rear view mirror is
far more useful to making decisions in reacting to on
coming motorists (from astern) than sound.

Now perhaps it is a function of what one listens to.
Italian past-tense verbs using essere or AC-DC "Big
Jack" probably mask out car sounds differently.


SMH

[Stephen Harding]

wrote:
>
> Yes, I'm OK but the rest of traffic is all morons. I guess the
> bicycle superiority complex common. The rear view mirror folks seem
> to be at the head of the group in this respect. Notice that there are
> no rear view mirrors seen in bicycle races.

I notice the racers don't wear trousers, or tevas or have
racks on their bikes either.

They also by and large don't seem to have to deal with
motor traffic like non-racer/commuter/tourers do.

I'm regarding the rear view mirror on my bikes with higher
and higher esteem the more and more I ride in traffic.


SMH

[[email protected]]

Stephen Harding wrote:

>> Yes, I'm OK but the rest of traffic is all morons. I guess the
>> bicycle superiority complex common. The rear view mirror folks
>> seem to be at the head of the group in this respect. Notice that
>> there are no rear view mirrors seen in bicycle races.

> I notice the racers don't wear trousers, or tevas or have racks on
> their bikes either.

> They also by and large don't seem to have to deal with motor traffic
> like non-racer/commuter/tourers do.

> I'm regarding the rear view mirror on my bikes with higher and
> higher esteem the more and more I ride in traffic.

No greater zealot than a convert!

Jobst Brandt

[Frank Krygowski[_2_]]

On Dec 14, 6:13*pm, wrote:
>
> Cars behind cannot cut off a bicyclist,
> not until the car is ahead or at least abreast of the bicycle. *It is
> at this time that critical observations can be made. *A mirror is not
> useful in assessing when a driver will make a right turn or dive into
> a parking space, but careful observations can.

A mirror is very useful for seeing a right turn signal. While many
motorists haven't figured out how to operate turn signals, some have,
and I get early warning of their behavior.

And I find non-signaling motorists can often be read by a sort of
traffic analog to "body language." I recall one motorist who came up
behind me in a hurry, slowed to my speed, then suddenly accelerated to
pass me just before an intersection. I suspected he was a right hook
in the making. As it was, I moved a bit further left and yelled at
him while shaking my head, and he braked to turn right behind me.

> *I'll bet you've never
> seen a city bike messenger with a rear view mirror.

I've also seen them eschew multiple gears and brakes. No thanks,
they're not my role models.

- Frank Krygowski

[[email protected]]

Frank Krygowski wrote:

>> Cars behind cannot cut off a bicyclist, not until the car is ahead
>> or at least abreast of the bicycle. Â*It is at this time that
>> critical observations can be made. Â*A mirror is not useful in
>> assessing when a driver will make a right turn or dive into a
>> parking space, but careful observations can.

> A mirror is very useful for seeing a right turn signal. While many
> motorists haven't figured out how to operate turn signals, some
> have, and I get early warning of their behavior.

> And I find non-signaling motorists can often be read by a sort of
> traffic analog to "body language." I recall one motorist who came
> up behind me in a hurry, slowed to my speed, then suddenly
> accelerated to pass me just before an intersection. I suspected he
> was a right hook in the making. As it was, I moved a bit further
> left and yelled at him while shaking my head, and he braked to turn
> right behind me.

>> I'll bet you've never seen a city bike messenger with a rear view
>> mirror.

> I've also seen them eschew multiple gears and brakes. No thanks,
> they're not my role models.

I don't see why you think I am suggesting them as role models. The
point is that with a degree of natural skills the apparent hazard of
bicycling is not what is presented here. It can be done and that it
even works without gears or brakes underscores that.

If your better equipped bicycle doesn't meet the demand then the
failure must be elsewhere.

Jobst Brandt

[Roger Zoul]

> wrote in message
...
> Roger Zoul wrote:
>
>>>>> no, she was just plain old stupid, she went into the other lane
>>>>> to pass me then braked making a sharp turn right in front of me;
>>>>> I was doing about 35kph when this happened; there was no reason
>>>>> she had to pass me
>
>>>> When many people see a bicycle ahead of them, they've just gotta
>>>> get ahead of it. They've /just gotta/. It's all really quite
>>>> predictable and expectable. It's like some sort of innate
>>>> instinct people have. Even fellow cyclists aren't immune to this
>>>> effect -- if you're stopped at a red traffic light, some of them
>>>> will butt-in in front of you and the stop line, to wait out the
>>>> light. And if you're walking your bike on the sidewalk,
>>>> pedestrians behind you will bust their asses to get ahead of you.
>
>>>> I don't know why it is, but so many people see bicycles as
>>>> obstructions and obstacles, even if you're going faster than they
>>>> are. Even if they're riding bikes themselves. When riders
>>>> realize this, we become armed with an enhanced ability to interact
>>>> with, and even predict the movements of surrounding traffic.
>
>>>> So, there actually /is/ a reason she "had" to pass you -- it was
>>>> pathologically hardwired in her psyche.
>
>>> As you said, "Even if they're riding bikes themselves." This is
>>> apparent when I read of other car/bicycle interactions on this NG.
>>> I think many wreck.bike readers should take lessons from bike
>>> messengers who don't have these problems. In city traffic, I have
>>> been riding in that style for many years without problem. I am
>>> surprised that police cruisers ignore my law violations (as
>>> righteous bicyclists call it). On top of that, as I reported on
>>> one of these topics, I found London (GB) traffic even more
>>> accommodating in that matter.
>
>>>> I fear the tone of my posts might sound like I'm calling you
>>>> stupid; please believe me, I have no such intention.
>
>>> Not to worry, the "take the lane" riders volunteer to raise their
>>> hands when a roll call of stupid riders is taken. I don't
>>> understand why so many riders feel so superior to their fellow
>>> humans when riding bicycles.
>
>>>> The driver who cut you off was being stupid, because she was
>>>> acting in a thoughtless, "reptilian brain" mode. I'm just saying:
>>>> that's how a lot of people act on the streets. It doesn't hurt to
>>>> be aware of that. We can often even use it to our advantage. I
>>>> call it "reading their minds" but it really isn't anything so
>>>> esoteric. In fact it's dirt simple. People are so predictable.
>>>> That's how advertising agencies and casinos make so much money.
>
>>> Well said!
>
>>>> That said, there certainly are occasions where synchronicity works
>>>> against us, and we wind up as sitting ducks for inescapably
>>>> imminent consequences that seem to be aimed by Fate directly at
>>>> us.
>
>>>> I'm glad you came out of the incident unscathed.
>
>>> Unscathed, but was anything learned? In such a position I don't
>>> watch the car but rather the driver's head and direction of
>>> attention as well as the steering angle of the cars wheels... and
>>> don't wear headphones because there is much information about cars
>>> approaching from behind in tire and engine sounds.
>
>> Hmm... so you don't wear a mirror but yet you have the ability to
>> watch every driver's head and direction of attention as well as the
>> steering angle of the cars wheels... in traffic for all cars coming
>> up behind you? I guess this is an example of the Jobst Brandt
>> superiorty at work.
>
> Stop concocting fairy tales. Cars behind cannot cut off a bicyclist,
> not until the car is ahead or at least abreast of the bicycle. It is
> at this time that critical observations can be made. A mirror is not
> useful in assessing when a driver will make a right turn or dive into
> a parking space, but careful observations can. I'll bet you've never
> seen a city bike messenger with a rear view mirror.
>
> Jobst Brandt

Stop concocting fairy tales. When a car is passing you up you cannot see the
drivers head and direction of attention as well as steering angle of cars
wheels in such a fashion as to avoid the right hook. And then do this
repeatedly for car after car in traffic situations. Unless, of course, you
are some kind of human cybernetic organism.

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
writes in part:

> As you said, "Even if they're riding bikes themselves." This is
> apparent when I read of other car/bicycle interactions on this NG. I
> think many wreck.bike readers should take lessons from bike messengers
> who don't have these problems. In city traffic, I have been riding in
> that style for many years without problem.

That's rather why I recommended Robert Hurst's book:
The Art of Urban Cycling: Lessons From the Street
a few posts upthread. The author himself is an
erstwhile bike messenger. I particularly appreciate
his treatment of dealing with responsibility & blame,
and applying the energy that might be spent on blaming
the other guy, to figuring out what went wrong, and how
to avoid bad situations in the future from the lessons
learned. I think you would agree with his points in
that respect.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[[email protected]]

Roger Zoul wrote:

>>>>>> no, she was just plain old stupid, she went into the other lane
>>>>>> to pass me then braked making a sharp turn right in front of
>>>>>> me; I was doing about 35kph when this happened; there was no
>>>>>> reason she had to pass me

>>>>> When many people see a bicycle ahead of them, they've just gotta
>>>>> get ahead of it. They've /just gotta/. It's all really quite
>>>>> predictable and expectable. It's like some sort of innate
>>>>> instinct people have. Even fellow cyclists aren't immune to
>>>>> this effect -- if you're stopped at a red traffic light, some of
>>>>> them will butt-in in front of you and the stop line, to wait out
>>>>> the light. And if you're walking your bike on the sidewalk,
>>>>> pedestrians behind you will bust their asses to get ahead of
>>>>> you.

>>>>> I don't know why it is, but so many people see bicycles as
>>>>> obstructions and obstacles, even if you're going faster than
>>>>> they are. Even if they're riding bikes themselves. When riders
>>>>> realize this, we become armed with an enhanced ability to
>>>>> interact with, and even predict the movements of surrounding
>>>>> traffic.

>>>>> So, there actually /is/ a reason she "had" to pass you -- it was
>>>>> pathologically hardwired in her psyche.

>>>> As you said, "Even if they're riding bikes themselves." This is
>>>> apparent when I read of other car/bicycle interactions on this
>>>> NG. I think many wreck.bike readers should take lessons from
>>>> bike messengers who don't have these problems. In city traffic,
>>>> I have been riding in that style for many years without problem.
>>>> I am surprised that police cruisers ignore my law violations (as
>>>> righteous bicyclists call it). On top of that, as I reported on
>>>> one of these topics, I found London (GB) traffic even more
>>>> accommodating in that matter.

>>>>> I fear the tone of my posts might sound like I'm calling you
>>>>> stupid; please believe me, I have no such intention.

>>>> Not to worry, the "take the lane" riders volunteer to raise their
>>>> hands when a roll call of stupid riders is taken. I don't
>>>> understand why so many riders feel so superior to their fellow
>>>> humans when riding bicycles.

>>>>> The driver who cut you off was being stupid, because she was
>>>>> acting in a thoughtless, "reptilian brain" mode. I'm just
>>>>> saying: that's how a lot of people act on the streets. It
>>>>> doesn't hurt to be aware of that. We can often even use it to
>>>>> our advantage. I call it "reading their minds" but it really
>>>>> isn't anything so esoteric. In fact it's dirt simple. People
>>>>> are so predictable. That's how advertising agencies and casinos
>>>>> make so much money.

>>>> Well said!

>>>>> That said, there certainly are occasions where synchronicity
>>>>> works against us, and we wind up as sitting ducks for
>>>>> inescapably imminent consequences that seem to be aimed by Fate
>>>>> directly at us.

>>>>> I'm glad you came out of the incident unscathed.

>>>> Unscathed, but was anything learned? In such a position I don't
>>>> watch the car but rather the driver's head and direction of
>>>> attention as well as the steering angle of the cars wheels... and
>>>> don't wear headphones because there is much information about
>>>> cars approaching from behind in tire and engine sounds.

>>> Hmm... so you don't wear a mirror but yet you have the ability to
>>> watch every driver's head and direction of attention as well as
>>> the steering angle of the cars wheels... in traffic for all cars
>>> coming up behind you? I guess this is an example of the Jobst
>>> Brandt superiority at work.

>> Stop concocting fairy tales. Cars behind cannot cut off a
>> bicyclist, not until the car is ahead or at least abreast of the
>> bicycle. It is at this time that critical observations can be
>> made. A mirror is not useful in assessing when a driver will make
>> a right turn or dive into a parking space, but careful observations
>> can. I'll bet you've never seen a city bike messenger with a rear
>> view mirror.

> Stop concocting fairy tales. When a car is passing you up you
> cannot see the drivers head and direction of attention as well as
> steering angle of cars wheels in such a fashion as to avoid the
> right hook. And then do this repeatedly for car after car in
> traffic situations. Unless, of course, you are some kind of human
> cybernetic organism.

Name calling will get you nowhere, but meanwhile you might reconsider
your approach.

I think you misconstrue the event. A bicyclist is not constantly at a
right turn intersection and only when the car is in a position to make
such a move does one need to observe these things. When a car tries
to dive into a curb parking space, speed must be far slower, so that
presents no problem for an aware rider. From what you write I take it
you are not quick enough to sense what a driver is doing. As I said,
a bike messenger observes these things often at great speed. I would
long ago have been under some car or truck's wheels if I didn't
emulate that style as I ride through dense urban areas.

Jobst Brandt

[PatTX[_2_]]

<snip>
Traffic on local main streets
:: don't reach 20mph most of the time. On rare occasions I get crowded
:: by drifting drivers, so I slap the car on the roof as a wake up. It
:: works.
::
:: Jobst Brandt

Ah, that confirms my suspicion that you are thinking only of dense
inner-city traffic. From your other posts, I couldn't find any common ground
with my situation---being on a suburban street with "loose", not dense
traffic, with a left lane the driver could pull into, and the speed of
traffic is 40 mph. Most people who have been posting and your posts have
been talking about two different scenarios.

There is no time to scrutinize drivers' intentions at 40 mph.

Pat in TX

[[email protected]]

On Dec 15, 2:43*am, wrote:
> Roger Zoul wrote:
> >>>>>> no, she was just plain old stupid, she went into the other lane
> >>>>>> to pass me then braked making a sharp turn right in front of
> >>>>>> me; I was doing about 35kph when this happened; there was no
> >>>>>> reason she had to pass me
> >>>>> When many people see a bicycle ahead of them, they've just gotta
> >>>>> get ahead of it. *They've /just gotta/. *It's all really quite
> >>>>> predictable and expectable. *It's like some sort of innate
> >>>>> instinct people have. *Even fellow cyclists aren't immune to
> >>>>> this effect -- if you're stopped at a red traffic light, some of
> >>>>> them will butt-in in front of you and the stop line, to wait out
> >>>>> the light. *And if you're walking your bike on the sidewalk,
> >>>>> pedestrians behind you will bust their asses to get ahead of
> >>>>> you.
> >>>>> I don't know why it is, but so many people see bicycles as
> >>>>> obstructions and obstacles, even if you're going faster than
> >>>>> they are. *Even if they're riding bikes themselves. *When riders
> >>>>> realize this, we become armed with an enhanced ability to
> >>>>> interact with, and even predict the movements of surrounding
> >>>>> traffic.
> >>>>> So, there actually /is/ a reason she "had" to pass you -- it was
> >>>>> pathologically hardwired in her psyche.
> >>>> As you said, "Even if they're riding bikes themselves." *This is
> >>>> apparent when I read of other car/bicycle interactions on this
> >>>> NG. *I think many wreck.bike readers should take lessons from
> >>>> bike messengers who don't have these problems. *In city traffic,
> >>>> I have been riding in that style for many years without problem.
> >>>> I am surprised that police cruisers ignore my law violations (as
> >>>> righteous bicyclists call it). *On top of that, as I reported on
> >>>> one of these topics, I found London (GB) traffic even more
> >>>> accommodating in that matter.
> >>>>> I fear the tone of my posts might sound like I'm calling you
> >>>>> stupid; please believe me, I have no such intention.
> >>>> Not to worry, the "take the lane" riders volunteer to raise their
> >>>> hands when a roll call of stupid riders is taken. *I don't
> >>>> understand why so many riders feel so superior to their fellow
> >>>> humans when riding bicycles.
> >>>>> The driver who cut you off was being stupid, because she was
> >>>>> acting in a thoughtless, "reptilian brain" mode. *I'm just
> >>>>> saying: that's how a lot of people act on the streets. *It
> >>>>> doesn't hurt to be aware of that. *We can often even use it to
> >>>>> our advantage. *I call it "reading their minds" but it really
> >>>>> isn't anything so esoteric. *In fact it's dirt simple. *People
> >>>>> are so predictable. *That's how advertising agencies and casinos
> >>>>> make so much money.
> >>>> Well said!
> >>>>> That said, there certainly are occasions where synchronicity
> >>>>> works against us, and we wind up as sitting ducks for
> >>>>> inescapably imminent consequences that seem to be aimed by Fate
> >>>>> directly at us.
> >>>>> I'm glad you came out of the incident unscathed.
> >>>> Unscathed, but was anything learned? *In such a position I don't
> >>>> watch the car but rather the driver's head and direction of
> >>>> attention as well as the steering angle of the cars wheels... and
> >>>> don't wear headphones because there is much information about
> >>>> cars approaching from behind in tire and engine sounds.
> >>> Hmm... so you don't wear a mirror but yet you have the ability to
> >>> watch every driver's head and direction of attention as well as
> >>> the steering angle of the cars wheels... in traffic for all cars
> >>> coming up behind you? *I guess this is an example of the Jobst
> >>> Brandt superiority at work.
> >> Stop concocting fairy tales. *Cars behind cannot cut off a
> >> bicyclist, not until the car is ahead or at least abreast of the
> >> bicycle. *It is at this time that critical observations can be
> >> made. *A mirror is not useful in assessing when a driver will make
> >> a right turn or dive into a parking space, but careful observations
> >> can. *I'll bet you've never seen a city bike messenger with a rear
> >> view mirror.
> > Stop concocting fairy tales. *When a car is passing you up you
> > cannot see the drivers head and direction of attention as well as
> > steering angle of cars wheels in such a fashion as to avoid the
> > right hook. *And then do this repeatedly for car after car in
> > traffic situations. *Unless, of course, you are some kind of human
> > cybernetic organism.
>
> Name calling will get you nowhere, but meanwhile you might reconsider
> your approach.
>
> I think you misconstrue the event. *A bicyclist is not constantly at a
> right turn intersection and only when the car is in a position to make
> such a move does one need to observe these things. *When a car tries
> to dive into a curb parking space, speed must be far slower, so that
> presents no problem for an aware rider. *From what you write I take it
> you are not quick enough to sense what a driver is doing. *As I said,
> a bike messenger observes these things often at great speed. *I would
> long ago have been under some car or truck's wheels if I didn't
> emulate that style as I ride through dense urban areas.
>
> Jobst Brandt- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

the difference is that bike couriers tend to ride in the city core
where there is a lot of traffic, cars, delivery vehicles, buses and or
street cars, pedistrians and other bikers. the vehicular traffic is
consequently more cautious and slower paced, bikers are thus going at
about the same speed as cars and the speed difference being less have
a lot more time to react to situations. Beyond the downtown core, as
in my case, I was heading out on a main throughfare mid-afternoon,
beginning of the rush hour; traffic was very steady and also in a
hurry (to beat the rush) I would estimate it was going about 50-60+
kph to my 35. In addition, I was a top bike courier for 4 years; the
skills aquired there really only help in that environment "when you
are expecting it"; most accidents occur in my experience when least
expected- which is why when driving or cycling I am extra aware ( read
slightly scared) when it's a nice day and everything is going great.

[Frank Krygowski[_2_]]

On Dec 14, 10:18*pm, wrote:
> Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >
> > Jobst Brandt wrote:
> >> I'll bet you've never seen a city bike messenger with a rear view
> >> mirror.
> > I've also seen them eschew multiple gears and brakes. *No thanks,
> > they're not my role models.
>
> I don't see why you think I am suggesting them as role models.

?? Your statement about their not using mirrors, and your urging us
to watch some bicycle messenger videos, seemed to indicate that. If
not, I missed your point - and I suspect others did, too.

>*The
> point is that with a degree of natural skills the apparent hazard of
> bicycling is not what is presented here. *It can be done and that it
> even works without gears or brakes underscores that.
>
> If your better equipped bicycle doesn't meet the demand then the
> failure must be elsewhere.

If I ever have such a failure, I may briefly consider what you've
said. But after 30+ years of adult cycling, I have no fear of
"apparent hazards," and I'm reasonably sure my techniques and
equipment are satisfactory.

- Frank Krygowski

[[email protected]]

Pat who? wrote:

> <snip>

>> Traffic on local main streets doesn't reach 20mph most of the time.
>> On rare occasions I get crowded by drifting drivers, so I slap the
>> car on the roof as a wake up. It works.

> Ah, that confirms my suspicion that you are thinking only of dense
> inner-city traffic. From your other posts, I couldn't find any
> common ground with my situation being on a suburban street with
> "loose", not dense traffic, with a left lane the driver could pull
> into, and the speed of traffic is 40 mph. Most people who have been
> posting and your posts have been talking about two different
> scenarios.

Stop being suspicious and don't expect many riders to feel that your
problem is theirs as well.

> There is no time to scrutinize drivers' intentions at 40 mph.

You can't have it both ways. No one makes right turns, of the kind
you described, at 40mph. At that speed and above, a car gives plenty
of warning that a turning maneuver is anticipated because the rushing
sound of the approach dies down as the driver brakes for the turn.
Slowing down must occur a reasonable distance from the corner so,
unless you are asleep, you should be warned.

Stop whining and get with the program, and don't "take the lane" in 40
mph traffic to show those "stupid drivers" how they should drive.
They hate it and often respond in kind.

Jobst Brandt

[PatTX[_2_]]

::
::: Ah, that confirms my suspicion that you are thinking only of dense
::: inner-city traffic. From your other posts, I couldn't find any
::: common ground with my situation being on a suburban street with
::: "loose", not dense traffic, with a left lane the driver could pull
::: into, and the speed of traffic is 40 mph. Most people who have been
::: posting and your posts have been talking about two different
::: scenarios.
::
:: Stop being suspicious and don't expect many riders to feel that your
:: problem is theirs as well.

Stop calling names. It does NOT tend to convince others to agree with you. I
am suprised you haven't discovered that in all of your years on this earth.


::
::: There is no time to scrutinize drivers' intentions at 40 mph.
::
:: You can't have it both ways. No one makes right turns, of the kind
:: you described, at 40mph. At that speed and above, a car gives plenty
:: of warning that a turning maneuver is anticipated because the rushing
:: sound of the approach dies down as the driver brakes for the turn.
:: Slowing down must occur a reasonable distance from the corner so,
:: unless you are asleep, you should be warned.

Did I mention I live in Texas? That is important, because it is windy here!
Yesterday, we had "normal" winds at 35 mph with gusts above that. I might
have also mentioned that this teenager came up from behind me, going 40 mph
(the speed limit on that road) and then at the last second slowed and turned
right. I did mention that the elderly woman sitting at the stop sign was
astonished, did I not? I doubt she would have been that way if a driver had
merely been going 20 or less.


:: Stop whining and get with the program, and don't "take the lane" in
:: 40 mph traffic to show those "stupid drivers" how they should drive.
:: They hate it and often respond in kind.
::
:: Jobst Brandt

"Whining-- a sing-song response." Therefore, how you can say someone is
"whining" in print? I think you need to go back and familiarize yourself
with a dictionary. Nowhere did I say that the drivers were "stupid." In
fact, I wrote that the vast majority just automatically move into the left
lane to pass. If you call "taking the lane" when I wrote I was about 2 ft
from the right curb, I fear for your reading comprehension. If you can't
keep up, Jobst, you should vacate the thread. It is leaving you behind. This
time, as I have seen in other posts, you disregard what the person writes
and just assume you know what the person means.

Pat in TX

[[email protected]]

On Dec 15, 12:18*pm, wrote:
> Pat who? wrote:
> > <snip>
> >> Traffic on local main streets doesn't reach 20mph most of the time.
> >> On rare occasions I get crowded by drifting drivers, so I slap the
> >> car on the roof as a wake up. *It works.
> > Ah, that confirms my suspicion that you are thinking only of dense
> > inner-city traffic. From your other posts, I couldn't find any
> > common ground with my situation being on a suburban street with
> > "loose", not dense traffic, with a left lane the driver could pull
> > into, and the speed of traffic is 40 mph. *Most people who have been
> > posting and your posts have been talking about two different
> > scenarios.
>
> Stop being suspicious and don't expect many riders to feel that your
> problem is theirs as well.
>
> > There is no time to scrutinize drivers' intentions at 40 mph.
>
> You can't have it both ways. *No one makes right turns, of the kind
> you described, at 40mph. *At that speed and above, a car gives plenty
> of warning that a turning maneuver is anticipated because the rushing
> sound of the approach dies down as the driver brakes for the turn.


No one? Interesting. I'll have to check my speedometer, as it
reguarly indicates 40MPH when I'm making turns. While only one of my
vehicles was capable of a 90 degree turn @ 40MPH (and I did it often
in that vehicle), many turns around here are not 90 degrees, and I can
take them at 40 even in the pickup truck I drive as of late. Anyway,
I see a lot of high-performance cars with stiff, low riding suspension
and low-profile tires that are quite capable of high speed cornering.
They're often driven by younger drivers who are quite willing to make
those turns as fast as the car will allow, much as I was when I drove
such a car.


> Slowing down must occur a reasonable distance from the corner so,
> unless you are asleep, you should be warned.

What's your version of a reasonable distance? Even if a turn does
require me to slow, I'll usually be just about on top of it before I
do, at which point you'll have the warning of the engine racing as I
downshift and brake. Of course, by the time this occurs I'm only a
second from turning, so one would have to act pretty fast if I were
unaware of any cyclists I may be about to right hook. Of couse, being
a cyclist myself, I am on the watch for cyclists as well as any other
hazards, and would only make such a turn if my path where clear.
Unfortunately, not all drivers are as vigilant in watching for
cyclists as I am.

<snip>

[Mike]

On 14 Dec 2008 22:57:10 GMT, wrote:

>On rare occasions I get crowded
>by drifting drivers, so I slap the car on the roof as a wake up. It
>works.

Try that in many places and you'd end up in a heap on the floor with
your face rearranged.


--

[[email protected]]

Mike who? wrote:


>> On rare occasions I get crowded by drifting drivers, so I slap the
>> car on the roof as a wake up. It works.

> Try that in many places and you'd end up in a heap on the floor with
> your face rearranged.

Oh cut out the wishful thinking. First the traffic is too dense, then
it is fast and sparse, then drivers that inadvertently crowd a
bicyclist are turned to murderers when I give them an audible signal.
Don't you see that you are defending an indefensible position on
bicycle safety... and do so even with threats. It rings of helmet
wars, in which helmet advocates wish brain damage on non users and
tell endless horror stories of human vegetables after a crash,
something that will happen soon.

http://geocities.com/rayhosler/coastrangeslides/coastrange.

These folks, 50 years later, are all still well and alive except that
in those days we didn't hear from riders who didn't understand traffic
and how to handle the hazards of bicycling in it.

It works overseas as well:

http://tinyurl.com/92vpb

Jobst Brandt

[Bill Bushnell]

wrote:

> On rare occasions I get crowded by drifting drivers, so I slap the car on the
> roof as a wake up. It works.

Oh that works all right. The last time I tried that the driver slammed the
brakes. Fortunately, I was completely alongside. But, it was the last time I did
that. I don't want to be near a motor vehicle when it makes any sudden
acceleration.

--
Bill Bushnell
http://pobox.com/~bushnell/

[Stephen Harding]

wrote:
> Stephen Harding wrote:
>
>
>>>Yes, I'm OK but the rest of traffic is all morons. I guess the
>>>bicycle superiority complex common. The rear view mirror folks
>>>seem to be at the head of the group in this respect. Notice that
>>>there are no rear view mirrors seen in bicycle races.
>
>
>>I notice the racers don't wear trousers, or tevas or have racks on
>>their bikes either.
>
>
>>They also by and large don't seem to have to deal with motor traffic
>>like non-racer/commuter/tourers do.
>
>
>>I'm regarding the rear view mirror on my bikes with higher and
>>higher esteem the more and more I ride in traffic.
>
>
> No greater zealot than a convert!

Converted from what?


SMH

[Stephen Harding]

Roger Zoul wrote:

> Stop concocting fairy tales. When a car is passing you up you cannot see the
> drivers head and direction of attention as well as steering angle of cars
> wheels in such a fashion as to avoid the right hook. And then do this
> repeatedly for car after car in traffic situations. Unless, of course, you
> are some kind of human cybernetic organism.

Jobst just might be!


SMH

[Stephen Harding]

wrote:
> Roger Zoul wrote:
>
>
>>>>>>>no, she was just plain old stupid, she went into the other lane
>>>>>>>to pass me then braked making a sharp turn right in front of
>>>>>>>me; I was doing about 35kph when this happened; there was no
>>>>>>>reason she had to pass me
>
>
>>>>>>When many people see a bicycle ahead of them, they've just gotta
>>>>>>get ahead of it. They've /just gotta/. It's all really quite
>>>>>>predictable and expectable. It's like some sort of innate
>>>>>>instinct people have. Even fellow cyclists aren't immune to
>>>>>>this effect -- if you're stopped at a red traffic light, some of
>>>>>>them will butt-in in front of you and the stop line, to wait out
>>>>>>the light. And if you're walking your bike on the sidewalk,
>>>>>>pedestrians behind you will bust their asses to get ahead of
>>>>>>you.
>
>
>>>>>>I don't know why it is, but so many people see bicycles as
>>>>>>obstructions and obstacles, even if you're going faster than
>>>>>>they are. Even if they're riding bikes themselves. When riders
>>>>>>realize this, we become armed with an enhanced ability to
>>>>>>interact with, and even predict the movements of surrounding
>>>>>>traffic.
>
>
>>>>>>So, there actually /is/ a reason she "had" to pass you -- it was
>>>>>>pathologically hardwired in her psyche.
>
>
>>>>>As you said, "Even if they're riding bikes themselves." This is
>>>>>apparent when I read of other car/bicycle interactions on this
>>>>>NG. I think many wreck.bike readers should take lessons from
>>>>>bike messengers who don't have these problems. In city traffic,
>>>>>I have been riding in that style for many years without problem.
>>>>>I am surprised that police cruisers ignore my law violations (as
>>>>>righteous bicyclists call it). On top of that, as I reported on
>>>>>one of these topics, I found London (GB) traffic even more
>>>>>accommodating in that matter.
>
>
>>>>>>I fear the tone of my posts might sound like I'm calling you
>>>>>>stupid; please believe me, I have no such intention.
>
>
>>>>>Not to worry, the "take the lane" riders volunteer to raise their
>>>>>hands when a roll call of stupid riders is taken. I don't
>>>>>understand why so many riders feel so superior to their fellow
>>>>>humans when riding bicycles.
>
>
>>>>>>The driver who cut you off was being stupid, because she was
>>>>>>acting in a thoughtless, "reptilian brain" mode. I'm just
>>>>>>saying: that's how a lot of people act on the streets. It
>>>>>>doesn't hurt to be aware of that. We can often even use it to
>>>>>>our advantage. I call it "reading their minds" but it really
>>>>>>isn't anything so esoteric. In fact it's dirt simple. People
>>>>>>are so predictable. That's how advertising agencies and casinos
>>>>>>make so much money.
>
>
>>>>>Well said!
>
>
>>>>>>That said, there certainly are occasions where synchronicity
>>>>>>works against us, and we wind up as sitting ducks for
>>>>>>inescapably imminent consequences that seem to be aimed by Fate
>>>>>>directly at us.
>
>
>>>>>>I'm glad you came out of the incident unscathed.
>
>
>>>>>Unscathed, but was anything learned? In such a position I don't
>>>>>watch the car but rather the driver's head and direction of
>>>>>attention as well as the steering angle of the cars wheels... and
>>>>>don't wear headphones because there is much information about
>>>>>cars approaching from behind in tire and engine sounds.
>
>
>>>>Hmm... so you don't wear a mirror but yet you have the ability to
>>>>watch every driver's head and direction of attention as well as
>>>>the steering angle of the cars wheels... in traffic for all cars
>>>>coming up behind you? I guess this is an example of the Jobst
>>>>Brandt superiority at work.
>
>
>>>Stop concocting fairy tales. Cars behind cannot cut off a
>>>bicyclist, not until the car is ahead or at least abreast of the
>>>bicycle. It is at this time that critical observations can be
>>>made. A mirror is not useful in assessing when a driver will make
>>>a right turn or dive into a parking space, but careful observations
>>>can. I'll bet you've never seen a city bike messenger with a rear
>>>view mirror.
>
>
>>Stop concocting fairy tales. When a car is passing you up you
>>cannot see the drivers head and direction of attention as well as
>>steering angle of cars wheels in such a fashion as to avoid the
>>right hook. And then do this repeatedly for car after car in
>>traffic situations. Unless, of course, you are some kind of human
>>cybernetic organism.
>
>
> Name calling will get you nowhere, but meanwhile you might reconsider
> your approach.
>
> I think you misconstrue the event. A bicyclist is not constantly at a
> right turn intersection and only when the car is in a position to make
> such a move does one need to observe these things. When a car tries
> to dive into a curb parking space, speed must be far slower, so that
> presents no problem for an aware rider. From what you write I take it
> you are not quick enough to sense what a driver is doing. As I said,
> a bike messenger observes these things often at great speed. I would
> long ago have been under some car or truck's wheels if I didn't
> emulate that style as I ride through dense urban areas.

"Dense urban areas" give the bicyclist a bit of advantage
as far as the speed differential of events goes.

Try riding roads during a commute (I'm certain you have
done this) with cars coming up on you at 40+ mph.

I don't care how "quick" you are it ain't gonna be enough!

I most certainly have been cut off by cars coming up from
behind (at 50 mph probably). I think sometimes the motorist
just doesn't anticipate how fast the biker may be going or
perhaps just doesn't care.

Perhaps our definitions of "cut off" differ. I haven't
bumped fenders with anyone but I have had to veer off. Even
if the physics of the situation say I would not have actually
been hit, if it has caused be to initiate some avoidance
behavior, then I've been "cut off" as far as I'm concerned.

(And before you tell me it is not possible for a bicyclist
to react to a 50 mph motorist coming up from behind because
the passing time is fractions of a second, I've been watching
him coming on from behind as I approach a turnoff and know
he's moving from right turn lane back out into other lane.
He may even have his turn signal on.)


SMH

[Stephen Harding]

wrote:
> Pat who? wrote:
>
>
>><snip>
>
>
>>>Traffic on local main streets doesn't reach 20mph most of the time.
>>>On rare occasions I get crowded by drifting drivers, so I slap the
>>>car on the roof as a wake up. It works.
>
>
>>Ah, that confirms my suspicion that you are thinking only of dense
>>inner-city traffic. From your other posts, I couldn't find any
>>common ground with my situation being on a suburban street with
>>"loose", not dense traffic, with a left lane the driver could pull
>>into, and the speed of traffic is 40 mph. Most people who have been
>>posting and your posts have been talking about two different
>>scenarios.
>
> Stop being suspicious and don't expect many riders to feel that your
> problem is theirs as well.

It pays to be suspicious while biking. I definitely have
understanding w/ Pat's riding situation. I'll bet plenty of
others do. It find it rather surprising you don't seem to
understand it yourself as a biker who has put down plenty of
miles.

>>There is no time to scrutinize drivers' intentions at 40 mph.
>
> You can't have it both ways. No one makes right turns, of the kind
> you described, at 40mph. At that speed and above, a car gives plenty
> of warning that a turning maneuver is anticipated because the rushing
> sound of the approach dies down as the driver brakes for the turn.
> Slowing down must occur a reasonable distance from the corner so,
> unless you are asleep, you should be warned.
>
> Stop whining and get with the program, and don't "take the lane" in 40
> mph traffic to show those "stupid drivers" how they should drive.
> They hate it and often respond in kind.

Sure they do! Ever hear of exit ramps?

They don't only exist on interstates ya know!

They don't even have to be "real" exit ramps; just a right turn built
in such a way as to allow fast motor vehicle egress from the route.


SMH

[[email protected]]

Stephen Harding wrote:

>>>> Yes, I'm OK but the rest of traffic is all morons. I guess the
>>>> bicycle superiority complex common. The rear view mirror folks
>>>> seem to be at the head of the group in this respect. Notice that
>>>> there are no rear view mirrors seen in bicycle races.

>>> I notice the racers don't wear trousers, or tevas or have racks on
>>> their bikes either.

>>> They also by and large don't seem to have to deal with motor
>>> traffic like non-racer/commuter/tourers do.

>>> I'm regarding the rear view mirror on my bikes with higher and
>>> higher esteem the more and more I ride in traffic.

>> No greater zealot than a convert!

> Converted from what?

From a non-believer to believer, as in car driver to bicyclist, or no
mirror to mirror user. But you knew that, I'm sure, but your ploy is
consistent with conversion.

Jobst Brandt

[Stephen Harding]

wrote:
> Mike who? wrote:
>
>
>
>>>On rare occasions I get crowded by drifting drivers, so I slap the
>>>car on the roof as a wake up. It works.
>
>
>>Try that in many places and you'd end up in a heap on the floor with
>>your face rearranged.
>
>
> Oh cut out the wishful thinking. First the traffic is too dense, then

I learned a long time ago that when on the road, never
assume the other guy is sane!

The overwhelmingly vast number of motorists are perfectly
fine, meaning no harm, and if they did cut you off, just
weren't paying attention and didn't have any malicious
intent toward you.

Tapping on the car roof will probably work fine until it
doesn't, with a nutcase grabbing a baseball bat out of
his trunk (which happened to a friend of mine) or pulling
a gun out of the storage pocket of the vehicle.

It's counter productive! The offender usually knows he
did wrong and a lecture or tap on the roof won't accomplish
anything. You're wasting your breath or energy on the few
that have no clue.


SMH

[[email protected]]

Stephen Harding wrote:

>>>>>>>> no, she was just plain old stupid, she went into the other
>>>>>>>> lane to pass me then braked making a sharp turn right in
>>>>>>>> front of me; I was doing about 35kph when this happened;
>>>>>>>> there was no reason she had to pass me

>>>>>>> When many people see a bicycle ahead of them, they've just
>>>>>>> gotta get ahead of it. They've /just gotta/. It's all really
>>>>>>> quite predictable and expectable. It's like some sort of
>>>>>>> innate instinct people have. Even fellow cyclists aren't
>>>>>>> immune to this effect -- if you're stopped at a red traffic
>>>>>>> light, some of them will butt-in in front of you and the stop
>>>>>>> line, to wait out the light. And if you're walking your bike
>>>>>>> on the sidewalk, pedestrians behind you will bust their asses
>>>>>>> to get ahead of you.

>>>>>>> I don't know why it is, but so many people see bicycles as
>>>>>>> obstructions and obstacles, even if you're going faster than
>>>>>>> they are. Even if they're riding bikes themselves. When
>>>>>>> riders realize this, we become armed with an enhanced ability
>>>>>>> to interact with, and even predict the movements of
>>>>>>> surrounding traffic.

>>>>>>> So, there actually /is/ a reason she "had" to pass you -- it
>>>>>>> was pathologically hardwired in her psyche.

>>>>>> As you said, "Even if they're riding bikes themselves." This
>>>>>> is apparent when I read of other car/bicycle interactions on
>>>>>> this NG. I think many wreck.bike readers should take lessons
>>>>>> from bike messengers who don't have these problems. In city
>>>>>> traffic, I have been riding in that style for many years
>>>>>> without problem. I am surprised that police cruisers ignore my
>>>>>> law violations (as righteous bicyclists call it). On top of
>>>>>> that, as I reported on one of these topics, I found London (GB)
>>>>>> traffic even more accommodating in that matter.

>>>>>>> I fear the tone of my posts might sound like I'm calling you
>>>>>>> stupid; please believe me, I have no such intention.

>>>>>> Not to worry, the "take the lane" riders volunteer to raise
>>>>>> their hands when a roll call of stupid riders is taken. I
>>>>>> don't understand why so many riders feel so superior to their
>>>>>> fellow humans when riding bicycles.

>>>>>>> The driver who cut you off was being stupid, because she was
>>>>>>> acting in a thoughtless, "reptilian brain" mode. I'm just
>>>>>>> saying: that's how a lot of people act on the streets. It
>>>>>>> doesn't hurt to be aware of that. We can often even use it to
>>>>>>> our advantage. I call it "reading their minds" but it really
>>>>>>> isn't anything so esoteric. In fact it's dirt simple. People
>>>>>>> are so predictable. That's how advertising agencies and
>>>>>>> casinos make so much money.

>>>>>> Well said!

>>>>>>> That said, there certainly are occasions where synchronicity
>>>>>>> works against us, and we wind up as sitting ducks for
>>>>>>> inescapably imminent consequences that seem to be aimed by
>>>>>>> Fate directly at us.

>>>>>>> I'm glad you came out of the incident unscathed.

>>>>>> Unscathed, but was anything learned? In such a position I
>>>>>> don't watch the car but rather the driver's head and direction
>>>>>> of attention as well as the steering angle of the cars
>>>>>> wheels... and don't wear headphones because there is much
>>>>>> information about cars approaching from behind in tire and
>>>>>> engine sounds.

>>>>> Hmm... so you don't wear a mirror but yet you have the ability
>>>>> to watch every driver's head and direction of attention as well
>>>>> as the steering angle of the cars wheels... in traffic for all
>>>>> cars coming up behind you? I guess this is an example of the
>>>>> Jobst Brandt superiority at work.

>>>> Stop concocting fairy tales. Cars behind cannot cut off a
>>>> bicyclist, not until the car is ahead or at least abreast of the
>>>> bicycle. It is at this time that critical observations can be
>>>> made. A mirror is not useful in assessing when a driver will
>>>> make a right turn or dive into a parking space, but careful
>>>> observations can. I'll bet you've never seen a city bike
>>>> messenger with a rear view mirror.

>>> Stop concocting fairy tales. When a car is passing you up you
>>> cannot see the drivers head and direction of attention as well as
>>> steering angle of cars wheels in such a fashion as to avoid the
>>> right hook. And then do this repeatedly for car after car in
>>> traffic situations. Unless, of course, you are some kind of human
>>> cybernetic organism.

>> Name calling will get you nowhere, but meanwhile you might
>> reconsider your approach.

>> I think you misconstrue the event. A bicyclist is not constantly
>> at a right turn intersection and only when the car is in a position
>> to make such a move does one need to observe these things. When a
>> car tries to dive into a curb parking space, speed must be far
>> slower, so that presents no problem for an aware rider. From what
>> you write I take it you are not quick enough to sense what a driver
>> is doing. As I said, a bike messenger observes these things often
>> at great speed. I would long ago have been under some car or
>> truck's wheels if I didn't emulate that style as I ride through
>> dense urban areas.

> "Dense urban areas" give the bicyclist a bit of advantage as far as
> the speed differential of events goes.

> Try riding roads during a commute (I'm certain you have done this)
> with cars coming up on you at 40+ mph.

> I don't care how "quick" you are it ain't gonna be enough!

> I most certainly have been cut off by cars coming up from behind (at
> 50 mph probably). I think sometimes the motorist just doesn't
> anticipate how fast the biker may be going or perhaps just doesn't
> care.

> Perhaps our definitions of "cut off" differ. I haven't bumped
> fenders with anyone but I have had to veer off. Even if the physics
> of the situation say I would not have actually been hit, if it has
> caused be to initiate some avoidance behavior, then I've been "cut
> off" as far as I'm concerned.

Well? Apparently you keep an eye on what passing cars are doing and
avoid collisions. That's what I was telling Roger to do.

> (And before you tell me it is not possible for a bicyclist to react
> to a 50 mph motorist coming up from behind because the passing time
> is fractions of a second, I've been watching him coming on from
> behind as I approach a turnoff and know he's moving from right turn
> lane back out into other lane. He may even have his turn signal
> on.)

It's not possible for a 50 mph car to make a right turn into a side
street in such a way that you cannot avoid a collision.

Jobst Brandt

[Frank Krygowski[_2_]]

On Dec 21, 2:40*pm, Stephen Harding > wrote:
> wrote:
> > Mike who? wrote:
>
> >>>On rare occasions I get crowded by drifting drivers, so I slap the
> >>>car on the roof as a wake up. *It works.
>
> >>Try that in many places and you'd end up in a heap on the floor with
> >>your face rearranged.
>
> > Oh cut out the wishful thinking. *First the traffic is too dense, then
>
> I learned a long time ago that when on the road, never
> assume the other guy is sane!
>
> The overwhelmingly vast number of motorists are perfectly
> fine, meaning no harm, and if they did cut you off, just
> weren't paying attention and didn't have any malicious
> intent toward you.
>
> Tapping on the car roof will probably work fine until it
> doesn't, with a nutcase grabbing a baseball bat out of
> his trunk (which happened to a friend of mine) or pulling
> a gun out of the storage pocket of the vehicle.
>
> It's counter productive! *The offender usually knows he
> did wrong and a lecture or tap on the roof won't accomplish
> anything. *You're wasting your breath or energy on the few
> that have no clue.

For whatever reason, I don't often have problems with drivers.
Mostly, we get along fine. But there have been times I've yelled at
them, slapped their car, or spoken sternly to them when stopped in
traffic.

I think there's value to this. I think society has lost much of the
benefits of negative feedback from respectable citizens. Some people
seem to feel anything but a deferent smile is somehow "intolerant."
Others divide the world into the perfectly competent and the
criminally insane, and figure anyone who makes a mistake is likely to
murder them.

It's not like that. People who carelessly endanger a cyclist may well
exercise more care if they're properly called on it. I've had
motorists apologize to me for their mistakes, so I don't doubt they'll
be at least a little more careful in the future.

And even the one guy in 30 years who got out of his car in traffic to
threaten me, reconsidered after he heard me calling out his license
plate number over and over. If nothing else, he learned he can be
identified.

There's value in justified negative feedback, as well as positive
feedback. If we don't provide that feedback, we turn society over to
its worst members.

- Frank Krygowski

[Stephen Harding]

wrote:
>
> Well? Apparently you keep an eye on what passing cars are doing and
> avoid collisions. That's what I was telling Roger to do.

Wow! We're in agreement then. Holiday Season I guess!

>>(And before you tell me it is not possible for a bicyclist to react
>>to a 50 mph motorist coming up from behind because the passing time
>>is fractions of a second, I've been watching him coming on from
>>behind as I approach a turnoff and know he's moving from right turn
>>lane back out into other lane. He may even have his turn signal
>>on.)
>
> It's not possible for a 50 mph car to make a right turn into a side
> street in such a way that you cannot avoid a collision.

Being "cut off" is a perception thing. As I've said, the
physics may say it is not possible, but if the motorist
generates some sort of avoidance response in you, it is
pretty much equivalent to the real thing.


SMH

[Stephen Harding]

wrote:

>>>No greater zealot than a convert!
>
>>Converted from what?
>
> From a non-believer to believer, as in car driver to bicyclist, or no
> mirror to mirror user. But you knew that, I'm sure, but your ploy is
> consistent with conversion.

I drive a car. I ride a bike. They both have their place.
Nothing to convert to or from.

One day I put a mirror on my bike. I liked it. As I rode
commuter style in traffic more and more, I came to appreciate
the rear view mirror more and more.

Again, nothing to convert to or from.

As far as my "ploy being consistent with conversation", I'm
not going to even bother asking what the heck that means!


SMH

[Stephen Harding]

Frank Krygowski wrote:

> There's value in justified negative feedback, as well as positive
> feedback. If we don't provide that feedback, we turn society over to
> its worst members.

From a theory point of view, I'd agree with you over all.

However, the fact that it seems many people can't handle
negative feedback very well these days, I think it's
largely playing with fire.

Again, the vast majority of people who "do you wrong" on
the road didn't intentionally do so. The negative feedback
has already been done by themselves.

For the small number of people who are clueless, it's a
waste at best (they're clueless!). At worst, the situation
escalates to something dangerous.

I'm not trying to "educate" anyone when I ride my bike.
They ought to know better on their own. If they don't my
efforts (tapping on car, frown, "hey!", etc) are unlikely
to change anything IMHO.


SMH

[Frank Krygowski[_2_]]

On Dec 23, 8:26*am, Stephen Harding > wrote:
> Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > There's value in justified negative feedback, as well as positive
> > feedback. *If we don't provide that feedback, we turn society over to
> > its worst members.
>
> *From a theory point of view, I'd agree with you over all.
>
> However, the fact that it seems many people can't handle
> negative feedback very well these days, I think it's
> largely playing with fire.

Good analogy. And sure enough, I do play with fire from time to
time.

My summer project was to weld up a large set of ornamental railings.
Then there are our campfires, our living room fireplace fires, our gas
stove...

So, as with feedback to strangers: to some it sounds dangerous, but
if well done, it's useful.

>
> Again, the vast majority of people who "do you wrong" on
> the road didn't intentionally do so. *The negative feedback
> has already been done by themselves.
>
> For the small number of people who are clueless, it's a
> waste at best (they're clueless!). *At worst, the situation
> escalates to something dangerous.
>
> I'm not trying to "educate" anyone when I ride my bike.
> They ought to know better on their own. *If they don't my
> efforts (tapping on car, frown, "hey!", etc) are unlikely
> to change anything IMHO.
>
> SMH

Ah well. I suppose there's room for your methods as well as my
methods.

If this is an ideal universe, you'll get the non-educable motorists,
and I'll interact only with educable ones.

- Frank Krygowski

[Mike]

On 21 Dec 2008 19:50:04 GMT, wrote:

>It's not possible for a 50 mph car to make a right turn into a side
>street in such a way that you cannot avoid a collision.

ROFLMAO. That's headstone quality.

--