Negotiating With Insurance Company

[Steve Sr.]

Hello,

I hope that everyone is having a happy holiday season and is looking
forward to a safe and prosperous new year.

I was recently attacked while riding on the road by an unrestrained
dog running off the owners property into the public roadway. The dog
got in front of my front wheel and caused a crash at about 20-25MPH.

I sustained minor injuries consisting of contusions and abrasions to
my knee, leg, hip, shoulder, and face as well as a sprained wrist.
None of these injuries even though painful and inconveniencing were
significant enough to require medical treatment.

The bike sustained mostly cosmetic damage. Both shifters were
scratched and gouged as were the right side pedal and the rear
deraileur. Every piece of clothing or equipment that I was wearing was
damaged by my slide down the asphalt.

The dog owner has liability insurance. I have talked to a couple of
attorneys and they didn't seem too interested in persuing this case
because my injuries weren't more severe and there wasn't more
potential $ involved. They basically recommended that I try to settle
with the insurance company myself.

So have any of you been in this kind of situation before? Can anyone
offer pointers on how to best deal with the insurance company?

I would like to be reimbursed for replacement for my damaged property
and bike components. Any idea as to whether the insurance company is
going to try to depreciate my property damages before making a
settlement offer?

I think that I am also entitled to some award for pain and suffering.
I have some real nasty looking pictures to prove it. Any idea how to
put a value on this? Is the insurance company likely going to try to
wiggle out of this altogether?

Thanks for any insight that you can provide.

Steve

[Tom Sherman[_2_]]

Steve Sr. wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I hope that everyone is having a happy holiday season and is looking
> forward to a safe and prosperous new year.
>
> I was recently attacked while riding on the road by an unrestrained
> dog running off the owners property into the public roadway. The dog
> got in front of my front wheel and caused a crash at about 20-25MPH.
>
> I sustained minor injuries consisting of contusions and abrasions to
> my knee, leg, hip, shoulder, and face as well as a sprained wrist.
> None of these injuries even though painful and inconveniencing were
> significant enough to require medical treatment.
>
> The bike sustained mostly cosmetic damage. Both shifters were
> scratched and gouged as were the right side pedal and the rear
> deraileur. Every piece of clothing or equipment that I was wearing was
> damaged by my slide down the asphalt.
>
> The dog owner has liability insurance. I have talked to a couple of
> attorneys and they didn't seem too interested in persuing this case
> because my injuries weren't more severe and there wasn't more
> potential $ involved. They basically recommended that I try to settle
> with the insurance company myself.
>
> So have any of you been in this kind of situation before? Can anyone
> offer pointers on how to best deal with the insurance company?
>
> I would like to be reimbursed for replacement for my damaged property
> and bike components. Any idea as to whether the insurance company is
> going to try to depreciate my property damages before making a
> settlement offer?
>
> I think that I am also entitled to some award for pain and suffering.
> I have some real nasty looking pictures to prove it. Any idea how to
> put a value on this? Is the insurance company likely going to try to
> wiggle out of this altogether?
>
> Thanks for any insight that you can provide.
>
My experience with insurance companies is unless you have a lawyer,
their offer will be take it or leave it.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

[peter]

On Dec 30, 5:50*pm, Steve Sr. > wrote:

> I would like to be reimbursed for replacement for my damaged property
> and bike components. Any idea as to whether the insurance company is
> going to try to depreciate my property damages before making a
> settlement offer?

I've had two similar experiences, one with a dog and the other with a
driver who pulled out in front of me. In both cases I got an estimate
from a local bike shop on how much it would cost to repair/replace all
damaged items (no depreciation) and presented that to the insurance
companies (homeowner's in one case and auto in the other). Both times
they were very happy to hand me a check for the indicated amount plus
tax in exchange for my signature on a statement that this constituted
payment in full. I had some road rash both times but chose not to ask
for any compensation for that and there were no medical expenses.

But be certain that you don't have any injuries that may show up later
- if you have any doubts then get checked out thoroughly and delay
making a final settlement until you're sure.

One thing I thought of later was that I might have been able to buy
back the damaged bike from the insurance company. The collision with
a dog bent the frame but left the components (Ultegra) in good shape.
I got a payment for the price of a replacement bike and the insurance
company got the damaged one - which I'm sure ended up in a dumpster
complete with perfectly good components still attached. Probably
should have negotiated to buy the bike back from them for some nominal
salvage value.

[[email protected]]

In rec.bicycles.misc Steve Sr. > wrote:
> Hello,

> I hope that everyone is having a happy holiday season and is looking
> forward to a safe and prosperous new year.

> I was recently attacked while riding on the road by an unrestrained
> dog running off the owners property into the public roadway. The dog
> got in front of my front wheel and caused a crash at about 20-25MPH.

> I sustained minor injuries consisting of contusions and abrasions to
> my knee, leg, hip, shoulder, and face as well as a sprained wrist.
> None of these injuries even though painful and inconveniencing were
> significant enough to require medical treatment.

> The bike sustained mostly cosmetic damage. Both shifters were
> scratched and gouged as were the right side pedal and the rear
> deraileur. Every piece of clothing or equipment that I was wearing was
> damaged by my slide down the asphalt.

> The dog owner has liability insurance. I have talked to a couple of
> attorneys and they didn't seem too interested in persuing this case
> because my injuries weren't more severe and there wasn't more
> potential $ involved. They basically recommended that I try to settle
> with the insurance company myself.

> So have any of you been in this kind of situation before? Can anyone
> offer pointers on how to best deal with the insurance company?

> I would like to be reimbursed for replacement for my damaged property
> and bike components. Any idea as to whether the insurance company is
> going to try to depreciate my property damages before making a
> settlement offer?

> I think that I am also entitled to some award for pain and suffering.
> I have some real nasty looking pictures to prove it. Any idea how to
> put a value on this? Is the insurance company likely going to try to
> wiggle out of this altogether?

> Thanks for any insight that you can provide.

> Steve

Steve, I can't offer any advice to you yet, but I was in a similar
crash a while back. In my case my injuries were substantial and the
damage to the bike minimal. My health insurer is considering
subrogating a claim against the dog owner. They're entitled to first
crack at him, as it's in the contract and their losses were greater.
But they seem willing to cooperate with me in my own claim after that.
I will follow this thread with great interest, and will gladly offer
any advice that I'm able to give once I know what to say. Meanwhile, I
wish you well. I think maybe in your shoes I'd keep lawyer hunting and
consider punitive damages as well.
If you'd like to contact me directly, my real e-mail is below.

Good luck,
Bill

-----------------------------------------------------------------
|Real e-mail: , minus the letters w/ tails.|
-----------------------------------------------------------------

[Jay Beattie]

On Dec 30, 6:26*pm, peter > wrote:
> On Dec 30, 5:50*pm, Steve Sr. > wrote:
>
> > I would like to be reimbursed for replacement for my damaged property
> > and bike components. Any idea as to whether the insurance company is
> > going to try to depreciate my property damages before making a
> > settlement offer?
>
> I've had two similar experiences, one with a dog and the other with a
> driver who pulled out in front of me. *In both cases I got an estimate
> from a local bike shop on how much it would cost to repair/replace all
> damaged items (no depreciation) and presented that to the insurance
> companies (homeowner's in one case and auto in the other). *Both times
> they were very happy to hand me a check for the indicated amount plus
> tax in exchange for my signature on a statement that this constituted
> payment in full. *I had some road rash both times but chose not to ask
> for any compensation for that and there were no medical expenses.
>
> But be certain that you don't have any injuries that may show up later
> - if you have any doubts then get checked out thoroughly and delay
> making a final settlement until you're sure.
>
> One thing I thought of later was that I might have been able to buy
> back the damaged bike from the insurance company. *The collision with
> a dog bent the frame but left the components (Ultegra) in good shape.
> I got a payment for the price of a replacement bike and the insurance
> company got the damaged one - which I'm sure ended up in a dumpster
> complete with perfectly good components still attached. *Probably
> should have negotiated to buy the bike back from them for some nominal
> salvage value.

Insurance companies generally pay straight replacement value based on
shop quotes. Some times they take the damaged bike and sometimes they
offer to pay replacement value less salvage value, and you keep the
bike. You can usually choose one or the other. I have never seen an
insurance company play hardball on property values so long as you get
reasonable shop quotes. -- Jay Beattie.

[Patrick Lamb]

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:26:40 -0800 (PST), peter >
wrote:
>On Dec 30, 5:50*pm, Steve Sr. > wrote:
>> I would like to be reimbursed for replacement for my damaged property
>> and bike components. Any idea as to whether the insurance company is
>> going to try to depreciate my property damages before making a
>> settlement offer?
>
>I've had two similar experiences, one with a dog and the other with a
>driver who pulled out in front of me. In both cases I got an estimate
>from a local bike shop on how much it would cost to repair/replace all
>damaged items (no depreciation) and presented that to the insurance
>companies (homeowner's in one case and auto in the other). Both times
>they were very happy to hand me a check for the indicated amount plus
>tax in exchange for my signature on a statement that this constituted
>payment in full. I had some road rash both times but chose not to ask
>for any compensation for that and there were no medical expenses.
>
>But be certain that you don't have any injuries that may show up later
>- if you have any doubts then get checked out thoroughly and delay
>making a final settlement until you're sure.

Like peter, I dealt directly with the insurance company of the lady
who hit me. Receipt for the helmet, written estimate from the bike
shop, and the adjuster was happy to pay for that. Take in those
gruesome pictures, and see if they don't offer you some compensation
for pain and suffering.

If the adjuster balks, I'd suggest talking to an attorney about
fee-based representation. You can add it to the insurance bill, AIUI.
And the mention of such a possibility just might change the adjuster's
attitude!

Pat

Email address works as is.

[Brian Nystrom]

Steve Sr. wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I hope that everyone is having a happy holiday season and is looking
> forward to a safe and prosperous new year.
>
> I was recently attacked while riding on the road by an unrestrained
> dog running off the owners property into the public roadway. The dog
> got in front of my front wheel and caused a crash at about 20-25MPH.
>
> I sustained minor injuries consisting of contusions and abrasions to
> my knee, leg, hip, shoulder, and face as well as a sprained wrist.
> None of these injuries even though painful and inconveniencing were
> significant enough to require medical treatment.
>
> The bike sustained mostly cosmetic damage. Both shifters were
> scratched and gouged as were the right side pedal and the rear
> deraileur. Every piece of clothing or equipment that I was wearing was
> damaged by my slide down the asphalt.
>
> The dog owner has liability insurance. I have talked to a couple of
> attorneys and they didn't seem too interested in persuing this case
> because my injuries weren't more severe and there wasn't more
> potential $ involved. They basically recommended that I try to settle
> with the insurance company myself.
>
> So have any of you been in this kind of situation before? Can anyone
> offer pointers on how to best deal with the insurance company?
>
> I would like to be reimbursed for replacement for my damaged property
> and bike components. Any idea as to whether the insurance company is
> going to try to depreciate my property damages before making a
> settlement offer?
>
> I think that I am also entitled to some award for pain and suffering.
> I have some real nasty looking pictures to prove it. Any idea how to
> put a value on this? Is the insurance company likely going to try to
> wiggle out of this altogether?

Perhaps I've been lucky, but when I had to deal with someone else's
insurance company a couple of years ago, they were amazingly
accommodating. They were definitely more interested in getting things
settled quickly than trying to save a few dollars, but that may well
vary from one company to the next. Perhaps companies have just come to
the conclusion that treating people decently and fairly is cheaper than
litigation and less financially risky than a jury trial.

I would give the company the opportunity to settle with you fairly, then
take it from there. Don't agree to anything or sign anything until you
get their final offer. They should pay for all damage at replacement
cost, cover all medical expenses and any lost wages, and offer you
something as compensation for your injuries. If their offer seems fair,
accept it and call it a day, as long as you're confident that you won't
have any residual medical problems.

[Tim McNamara]

In article >,
Steve Sr. > wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I hope that everyone is having a happy holiday season and is looking
> forward to a safe and prosperous new year.
>
> I was recently attacked while riding on the road by an unrestrained
> dog running off the owners property into the public roadway. The dog
> got in front of my front wheel and caused a crash at about 20-25MPH.
>
> I sustained minor injuries consisting of contusions and abrasions to
> my knee, leg, hip, shoulder, and face as well as a sprained wrist.
> None of these injuries even though painful and inconveniencing were
> significant enough to require medical treatment.
>
> The bike sustained mostly cosmetic damage. Both shifters were
> scratched and gouged as were the right side pedal and the rear
> deraileur. Every piece of clothing or equipment that I was wearing
> was damaged by my slide down the asphalt.
>
> The dog owner has liability insurance. I have talked to a couple of
> attorneys and they didn't seem too interested in persuing this case
> because my injuries weren't more severe and there wasn't more
> potential $ involved. They basically recommended that I try to settle
> with the insurance company myself.
>
> So have any of you been in this kind of situation before? Can anyone
> offer pointers on how to best deal with the insurance company?

Take notes. Document everything. The name of every person at the
insurance company that you talk to, their phone number, etc. Have all
of the information written down and ready before you call them: the
date of the accident, the breed of dog, the owner's name and contact
information, copies of the receipts for your bike and your clothes,
photos of same after (and before, if possible) your accident. Photos of
you after the accident, too. A copy of the relevant animal control laws
wouldn't hurt.

> I would like to be reimbursed for replacement for my damaged property
> and bike components. Any idea as to whether the insurance company is
> going to try to depreciate my property damages before making a
> settlement offer?

They will try to lowball you. Every $ they pay you is a loss off their
bottom line. Insurance adjusters are employed to protect the bottom
line, not you. They will assume that you are trying to scam them,
because that happens *a lot,* so make sure that your claim is reasonable
and documented.

Get a quote on what it will cost to restore your bike to the condition
it was before the accident or replace it with an equivalent bike.

Also, talk to your insurance agent to get advice about how to talk to
the god owner's insurance company. If it's the same insurance company,
see if your agent will go to bat for you. In some cases, you will need
to deal with your insurance company (your bike damages, for example, are
probably covered under your homeowner's /renter's insurance) and they
they will work out which insurance company pays what between the two of
them.

> I think that I am also entitled to some award for pain and suffering.
> I have some real nasty looking pictures to prove it. Any idea how to
> put a value on this? Is the insurance company likely going to try to
> wiggle out of this altogether?

Pain and suffering mainly applies if you lost time from work, spent
money on medical treatment or supplies, couldn't go to social functions,
etc. as a result of the accident. If you were able to live your normal
life despite the discomfort, you won't get much for this.

Good luck!

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

On Dec 30, 6:50*pm, Steve Sr. > wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I hope that everyone is having a happy holiday season and is looking
> forward to a safe and prosperous new year.
>
> I was recently attacked while riding on the road by an unrestrained
> dog running off the owners property into the public roadway. The dog
> got in front of my front wheel and caused a crash at about 20-25MPH.
>
> I sustained minor injuries consisting of contusions and abrasions to
> my knee, leg, hip, shoulder, and face as well as a sprained wrist.
> None of these injuries even though painful and inconveniencing were
> significant enough to require medical treatment.
>
> The bike sustained mostly cosmetic damage. Both shifters were
> scratched and gouged as were the right side pedal and the rear
> deraileur. Every piece of clothing or equipment that I was wearing was
> damaged by my slide down the asphalt.
>
> The dog owner has liability insurance. I have talked to a couple of
> attorneys and they didn't seem too interested in persuing this case
> because my injuries weren't more severe and there wasn't more
> potential $ involved. They basically recommended that I try to settle
> with the insurance company myself.
>
> So have any of you been in this kind of situation before? Can anyone
> offer pointers on how to best deal with the insurance company?
>
> I would like to be reimbursed for replacement for my damaged property
> and bike components. Any idea as to whether the insurance company is
> going to try to depreciate my property damages before making a
> settlement offer?
>
> I think that I am also entitled to some award for pain and suffering.
> I have some real nasty looking pictures to prove it. Any idea how to
> put a value on this? Is the insurance company likely going to try to
> wiggle out of this altogether?
>
> Thanks for any insight that you can provide.
>
> Steve

Keep looking for a lawyer. The insurance company will use one, you
should too.

[[email protected]]

On Dec 30, 7:50*pm, Steve Sr. > wrote:

(lotta good advice snipped)

I talked to someone the other day, someone who told me a couple of
stories about bike wrecks, and getting money for wrecked bikes.

Lots of money. "It's all in the estimate". Basically, he stuck it to
them but good.

I blanched somewhat, surprised that this person would resort to such
tactics, but quickly remembered that "honesty" is not always required
when dealing with dishonest people or institutions.

Like insurance companies who accept hefty property insurance premiums
for years and years and only notice the words "flood plain" after a
flood, when silly people expect to get their houses fixed for free or
something. Silly people!

Well, let me put it this way: some people got new cars and got their
houses fixed, and some didn't. Maybe some people had good lawyers, and
some people had decent insurance companies who paid off like they
should have after accepting premiums. (ref. Houston, Allison, 2001)

IOW, count anything you get "over true replacement costs" as
compensation for pain & suffering, which as others have pointed out,
you might have trouble getting any money for, since you weren't, by
luck (and riding skill, of course!) more grievously injured.

Including keeping the bike after payment, which is part of the stories
above. Or, the insurance company might take the old bike and sell/
auction it "for salvage". Likely no dumpster trip at this point, and
if you wind up with a new bike and a beater bike, plus a little money,
that sounds like justice to me.

Go after the dog owner; you're probably not the first person to have a
problem with that dog while going about your own lawful business--
unless you taunted the dog, or otherwise deliberately provoked an
attack, you did nothing "wrong" and are blameless in this incident.

A dog that (1) leaves his property and (2) knocks people down has
exceeded his rightful role as protector, and needs restraint,
relocation, or a one-way trip to doggie heaven. "You could have been
crippled or killed". Don't let it slide. An "electric fence" (shock
collar) is an intelligent solution which protects the dog from being
run over by a motor vehicle and allows the dog to do his job at the
same time.

BTW, I find shouting very loudly and repeatedly will deter most dogs
from pressing the attack and I always find it amazing when experienced
riders don't shout at dogs (only) AFTER the attack is commenced-- "not
cool" or something; yeah, I'd rather not have to dodge a dog that is
hard-wired to create mayhem in a "prey pack" (knocking down and
injuring prey) or deal with an animal that regards me, when I'm riding
solo, as an easy kill. Not a nice feeling, is it? Yes, you are perhaps
lucky you were not mauled and yes, I know riders who were.

I may have a chance to speak to the person mentioned above in the next
day or two and I will ask about his negotiation technique; he's got
something going on there and I know he will be happy to share (<g>).

Happy New Year! --D-y

[jl]

On Dec 30, 8:50 pm, Steve Sr. > wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I hope that everyone is having a happy holiday season and is looking
> forward to a safe and prosperous new year.
>
> I was recently attacked while riding on the road by an unrestrained
> dog running off the owners property into the public roadway. The dog
> got in front of my front wheel and caused a crash at about 20-25MPH.
[...]
> Steve

I practiced plaintiff's law once (then retired), and the damages for a
lawyer's calculations are ordinarily a multiple of the medicals. You
have no medicals, so your settlement figure must be pulled out of the
air. You should have at least made one trip to the doctor. It is not
up to you to decide the severity of your injuries. You don't know
that there may be lurking damage.

Ordinarily damage to property is the difference in fair market value
of the damaged vehicle, immediately before and immediately after the
occurrence.

Yes, you're entitled to P&S, and yes, the insurance company usually
tries to wiggle out and leave you holding the bag, although on
occasion one will negotiate in good faith.

If I were on a jury considering this injury-- and because an angry
doberman once put my bike and me over into the bushes while its master
stood on the porch grinning -- I'd certainly add some money as damages
against the dog owner for allowing a junkyard dog to run loose, and if
it happened in my city, punitive damages would be payable because of
the violation of animal control laws.

Under the rules of procedure your attorney (or you) can discover the
extent of the liability coverage. I bet the owner has homeowner's
insurance too, with coverage of your injuries.

[[email protected]]

On Dec 30, 7:50*pm, Steve Sr. > wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I hope that everyone is having a happy holiday season and is looking
> forward to a safe and prosperous new year.
>
> I was recently attacked while riding on the road by an unrestrained
> dog running off the owners property into the public roadway. The dog
> got in front of my front wheel and caused a crash at about 20-25MPH.
>
> I sustained minor injuries consisting of contusions and abrasions to
> my knee, leg, hip, shoulder, and face as well as a sprained wrist.
> None of these injuries even though painful and inconveniencing were
> significant enough to require medical treatment.
>
> The bike sustained mostly cosmetic damage. Both shifters were
> scratched and gouged as were the right side pedal and the rear
> deraileur. Every piece of clothing or equipment that I was wearing was
> damaged by my slide down the asphalt.
>
> The dog owner has liability insurance. I have talked to a couple of
> attorneys and they didn't seem too interested in persuing this case
> because my injuries weren't more severe and there wasn't more
> potential $ involved. They basically recommended that I try to settle
> with the insurance company myself.
>
> So have any of you been in this kind of situation before? Can anyone
> offer pointers on how to best deal with the insurance company?
>
> I would like to be reimbursed for replacement for my damaged property
> and bike components. Any idea as to whether the insurance company is
> going to try to depreciate my property damages before making a
> settlement offer?
>
> I think that I am also entitled to some award for pain and suffering.
> I have some real nasty looking pictures to prove it. Any idea how to
> put a value on this? Is the insurance company likely going to try to
> wiggle out of this altogether?
>
> Thanks for any insight that you can provide.
>
> Steve

With all due respect here, your statement, "The dog
got in front of my front wheel and caused a crash at about 20-25MPH."
appears to me to imply that your competence at bike handling might be
a contributing factor.

If a dog runs in front of your bike it is not attacking you. It would
have to contact you personally to 'attack' you.

I think you should definitely try to get the authorities in your area
to pursue whatever charges against the dog's owner that they can
because it is very irresponsible to allow the dog to do what it did
and, also, it is very irresponsible for them to allow the dog to get
into a situation where it might get injured or killed.

Hope you can pursue this to a satisfactory conclusion.

Lewis.

*****

[Frank Krygowski[_2_]]

On Dec 30, 9:02*pm, Tom Sherman wrote:
>
> My experience with insurance companies is unless you have a lawyer,
> their offer will be take it or leave it.

My experience is different, but it wasn't a bike crash. A guy ran a
stoplight and totaled our old car that my daughter was driving.

The car was about 14 years old, but in good shape, and I'd planned on
driving it forever. The engine had just been rebuilt. But the
insurance adjuster offered only blue book value of that car in
"average" condition. About the engine rebuild, he told me it made no
difference, that I had simply "made a bad economic decision."

I never got a lawyer. I just refused to settle, and had my daughter
refuse to sign any releases, etc.

Fortunately I was able to wait him out. Eventually, months later,
he called with a different tone of voice and asked how much money
would it take to get this off his desk. I figured he'd counter my
first offer, so I shot high; but he just said "OK, the check will be
in the mail."

I think the refusal to sign off on the medical release was the key.

- Frank Krygowski

[Tim McNamara]

In article
>,
Frank Krygowski > wrote:

> On Dec 30, 9:02*pm, Tom Sherman wrote:
> >
> > My experience with insurance companies is unless you have a lawyer,
> > their offer will be take it or leave it.
>
> My experience is different, but it wasn't a bike crash. A guy ran a
> stoplight and totaled our old car that my daughter was driving.
>
> The car was about 14 years old, but in good shape, and I'd planned on
> driving it forever. The engine had just been rebuilt. But the
> insurance adjuster offered only blue book value of that car in
> "average" condition. About the engine rebuild, he told me it made no
> difference, that I had simply "made a bad economic decision."

Evidently the insurance adjuster was of the same mindset that has helped
create the lovely economic conditions in which we now live.

> I never got a lawyer. I just refused to settle, and had my daughter
> refuse to sign any releases, etc.
>
> Fortunately I was able to wait him out. Eventually, months later,
> he called with a different tone of voice and asked how much money
> would it take to get this off his desk. I figured he'd counter my
> first offer, so I shot high; but he just said "OK, the check will be
> in the mail."
>
> I think the refusal to sign off on the medical release was the key.

Glad to hear you got a good outcome from this. Hope your daughter was
unharmed.

[Artemisia]

Steve Sr. wrote:

> The dog
> got in front of my front wheel and caused a crash at about 20-25MPH.

Out of curiosity, what happened to the dog?

EFR
Ile de France

[Jay Beattie]

On Dec 31, 5:32*am, Qui si parla Campagnolo >
wrote:
> On Dec 30, 6:50*pm, Steve Sr. > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hello,
>
> > I hope that everyone is having a happy holiday season and is looking
> > forward to a safe and prosperous new year.
>
> > I was recently attacked while riding on the road by an unrestrained
> > dog running off the owners property into the public roadway. The dog
> > got in front of my front wheel and caused a crash at about 20-25MPH.
>
> > I sustained minor injuries consisting of contusions and abrasions to
> > my knee, leg, hip, shoulder, and face as well as a sprained wrist.
> > None of these injuries even though painful and inconveniencing were
> > significant enough to require medical treatment.
>
> > The bike sustained mostly cosmetic damage. Both shifters were
> > scratched and gouged as were the right side pedal and the rear
> > deraileur. Every piece of clothing or equipment that I was wearing was
> > damaged by my slide down the asphalt.
>
> > The dog owner has liability insurance. I have talked to a couple of
> > attorneys and they didn't seem too interested in persuing this case
> > because my injuries weren't more severe and there wasn't more
> > potential $ involved. They basically recommended that I try to settle
> > with the insurance company myself.
>
> > So have any of you been in this kind of situation before? Can anyone
> > offer pointers on how to best deal with the insurance company?
>
> > I would like to be reimbursed for replacement for my damaged property
> > and bike components. Any idea as to whether the insurance company is
> > going to try to depreciate my property damages before making a
> > settlement offer?
>
> > I think that I am also entitled to some award for pain and suffering.
> > I have some real nasty looking pictures to prove it. Any idea how to
> > put a value on this? Is the insurance company likely going to try to
> > wiggle out of this altogether?
>
> > Thanks for any insight that you can provide.
>
> > Steve
>
> Keep looking for a lawyer. The insurance company will use one, you
> should too.- Hide quoted text -

Unlikely that the insurance company would hire a lawyer. They don't
want to spend the money handling a small claim and will retain counsel
only when the plaintiff sues. The dynamic is different with large
claims or where there are coverage issues.

Insurers have gotten fussy about dogs and ofter exclude coverage for
dogs with known tempers or prior misconduct. I think the OP would
know by now if the insurer was denying coverage.

The OP should be prepared for hard bargaining and finger pointing
(claims of comparative fault). Don't get riled up; this is SOP and
perfectly appropriate under the circumstances. Negotiations with
adjusters swirl down the toilet when plaintiff takes personal offense
when he or she does not get a blank check from the insurance company.
It's horse trading. Get tough but stay polite.

I would recommend that the OP: (1) find out if there is a state
statute allowing recovery of attorneys fees in small cases. Many
states (including Oregon) have statutes allowing plaintiffs to recover
attorneys fees in claims under a certain dollar amount, usually
between 5 and 10K. The potential for a fee award is a real motivator
to settle, (2) find out if small cases go to arbitration or a jury
trial. That cuts both ways, since jurors are sometimes not very
sympathetic to bicyclists. Arbitrators are sometimes a better draw.
In any event, you will know whether to threaten a jury trial and won't
look stupid. (3) Get shop estimates for replacement and estimates of
salvage value, (4) gather up all the meds and pictures and (4) write a
written demand letter with a specific response time that includes a
dollar demand for property and personal injury settlement. Attach
pictures and estimates.

I would also find out whether this dog has a history, if possible --
but that would probably require a lawsuit to finid out unless there is
a bad dog data base in the state.

The settlement amount for property does not have a lot of wiggle room.
It should be the amount in the replacement invoices less salvage value
(if you want to keep or sell the scratched parts). The amount for
personal injury is subjective since there are no medical bills or
treatment and probably no time lost from work. I would see if you can
get the name of a local laywer just to talk to him or her about value
-- someone who handles small cases and is willing to chat for a minute
or two for free. I would ask for $2,500 and settle for $1,000, but
that's just because I would want to get it over. If I were
representing a plaintiff, the amount demanded would depend on a lot of
factors (including the appearance of the client, the fact that I would
be taking a contingent fee), but even on a good day, a scratch and
bruise case without some orthopedic injury or significant medical
bills or lost time from work is not going to bring in big bucks. --
Jay Beattie.

[Peter H]

On Dec 30, 8:50*pm, Steve Sr. > wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I hope that everyone is having a happy holiday season and is looking
> forward to a safe and prosperous new year.
>
> I was recently attacked while riding on the road by an unrestrained
> dog running off the owners property into the public roadway. The dog
> got in front of my front wheel and caused a crash at about 20-25MPH.
>
> I sustained minor injuries consisting of contusions and abrasions to
> my knee, leg, hip, shoulder, and face as well as a sprained wrist.
> None of these injuries even though painful and inconveniencing were
> significant enough to require medical treatment.
>
> The bike sustained mostly cosmetic damage. Both shifters were
> scratched and gouged as were the right side pedal and the rear
> deraileur. Every piece of clothing or equipment that I was wearing was
> damaged by my slide down the asphalt.
>
> The dog owner has liability insurance. I have talked to a couple of
> attorneys and they didn't seem too interested in persuing this case
> because my injuries weren't more severe and there wasn't more
> potential $ involved. They basically recommended that I try to settle
> with the insurance company myself.
>
> So have any of you been in this kind of situation before? Can anyone
> offer pointers on how to best deal with the insurance company?
>
> I would like to be reimbursed for replacement for my damaged property
> and bike components. Any idea as to whether the insurance company is
> going to try to depreciate my property damages before making a
> settlement offer?
>
> I think that I am also entitled to some award for pain and suffering.
> I have some real nasty looking pictures to prove it. Any idea how to
> put a value on this? Is the insurance company likely going to try to
> wiggle out of this altogether?
>
> Thanks for any insight that you can provide.
>
> Steve

Are you absolutely certain that you didn't have any injuries? My guess
is a sore neck would speed up the insurance claim.

Peter H

[Mark]

On Dec 30, 7:50�pm, Steve Sr. > wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I hope that everyone is having a happy holiday season and is looking
> forward to a safe and prosperous new year.
>
> I was recently attacked while riding on the road by an unrestrained
> dog running off the owners property into the public roadway. The dog
> got in front of my front wheel and caused a crash at about 20-25MPH.
>
> I sustained minor injuries consisting of contusions and abrasions to
> my knee, leg, hip, shoulder, and face as well as a sprained wrist.
> None of these injuries even though painful and inconveniencing were
> significant enough to require medical treatment.
>
> The bike sustained mostly cosmetic damage. Both shifters were
> scratched and gouged as were the right side pedal and the rear
> deraileur. Every piece of clothing or equipment that I was wearing was
> damaged by my slide down the asphalt.
>
> The dog owner has liability insurance. I have talked to a couple of
> attorneys and they didn't seem too interested in persuing this case
> because my injuries weren't more severe and there wasn't more
> potential $ involved. They basically recommended that I try to settle
> with the insurance company myself.
>
> So have any of you been in this kind of situation before? Can anyone
> offer pointers on how to best deal with the insurance company?
>
> I would like to be reimbursed for replacement for my damaged property
> and bike components. Any idea as to whether the insurance company is
> going to try to depreciate my property damages before making a
> settlement offer?
>
> I think that I am also entitled to some award for pain and suffering.
> I have some real nasty looking pictures to prove it. Any idea how to
> put a value on this? Is the insurance company likely going to try to
> wiggle out of this altogether?
>
> Thanks for any insight that you can provide.
>
> Steve

If you don't get the satisfaction that you are looking for from the
dog owner's homeowner's insurance company, you always have the option
of taking the owner to small claim's court. However, you make no
reference of filing a police report. This can make things tougher for
coming up with a burden of proof.

I would suggest ordering the book "Bicycling & The Law", through
Velonews.com. It has several pages on dog related incidents and
accidents not involving motor vehicles. Good Luck.

[Sandy]

"Still Just Me" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:43:03 -0800 (PST), Jay Beattie
> > wrote:
>
>>> Keep looking for a lawyer. The insurance company will use one, you
>>> should too.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>Unlikely that the insurance company would hire a lawyer. They don't
>>want to spend the money handling a small claim and will retain counsel
>>only when the plaintiff sues. The dynamic is different with large
>>claims or where there are coverage issues.
>
> I dunno... from my recent experience in this area, and from the drift
> in the industry, the insurance companies seem to have adopted a "deny
> everything, fight everything" strategy in the last few years. And, as
> noted, their attitude will change very quickly once you have a lawyer.

While Jay may be better situated regarding resolution dynamics, I know
enough about insurance (former insurance GC) to say that the cost of
maintaining higher levels of assets to guarantee payment works against the
insurer, more so now with deflation in progress. To sell a larger amount of
insurance, the company has to acquire and place in guarantee a larger asset
base. When interest rates are high, the delaying tactic is more attractive,
but so is the cost of assets, or liquid backing in the form of a higher
percentage of premiums.

In short, an insurer is encouraged today to settle quickly, even somewhat
generously, and at a lower figure than extended discussions will lead to.
Get a lawyer's advice. The ones who have declined to represent you figure
that their income is not pumped up by your congenial post-accident conduct,
and maybe by their estimate that they can't make much more of it for
themselves. I would wait long enough to be sure that there aren't later
discovered effects of the crash, but not so long as to risk a curtain at the
end of the limitations period.

[Michael Press]

In article
>,
peter > wrote:

> On Dec 30, 5:50*pm, Steve Sr. > wrote:
>
> > I would like to be reimbursed for replacement for my damaged property
> > and bike components. Any idea as to whether the insurance company is
> > going to try to depreciate my property damages before making a
> > settlement offer?
>
> I've had two similar experiences, one with a dog and the other with a
> driver who pulled out in front of me. In both cases I got an estimate
> from a local bike shop on how much it would cost to repair/replace all
> damaged items (no depreciation) and presented that to the insurance
> companies (homeowner's in one case and auto in the other). Both times
> they were very happy to hand me a check for the indicated amount plus
> tax in exchange for my signature on a statement that this constituted
> payment in full. I had some road rash both times but chose not to ask
> for any compensation for that and there were no medical expenses.

Retail price on dressings and medication is not inconsiderable.
Pain and suffering is worthy of compensation. Healing takes
time, care, energy, and attention; freedom of movement is hindered.

Tegaderm dressings are the thing for road rash. They cost.

--
Michael Press

[Michael Press]

In article
>,
Jay Beattie > wrote:

> I would also find out whether this dog has a history, if possible --
> but that would probably require a lawsuit to finid out unless there is
> a bad dog data base in the state.

That could be as simple as calling municipal animal control.
I have sworn complaints with animal control, and they
look for a file; upon finding one, read it to me.

--
Michael Press

[slide[_2_]]

Steve Sr. wrote:

>
> I would like to be reimbursed for replacement for my damaged property
> and bike components. Any idea as to whether the insurance company is
> going to try to depreciate my property damages before making a
> settlement offer?
>

Yes, because that's the law. You can get 10 law firms hired and that
won't change the law. A court won't permit an unjust enrichment which in
this case means you get new when old was damaged.

What you can discuss is the residual value of the damaged goods. since
your damage is probably well below the limits of your local small claims
court, what you can do is file there if the initial offering from the
insurance is below what you consider fair.

Remember, legally 'fair' means being made whole again. It doesn't mean
being made better than you were before the incident.

I handle these cases regularly. Most plaintiffs expect more than they'll
get based on what they believe is real on TV.

[Jay Beattie]

On Dec 31 2008, 5:26*pm, "Sandy" > wrote:
> "Still Just Me" > wrote in messagenews:ocqnl45bsitaubgs3u2ridn3og82ripl97@4ax .com...
>
> > On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:43:03 -0800 (PST), Jay Beattie
> > > wrote:
>
> >>> Keep looking for a lawyer. The insurance company will use one, you
> >>> should too.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >>Unlikely that the insurance company would hire a lawyer. They don't
> >>want to spend the money handling a small claim and will retain counsel
> >>only when the plaintiff sues. *The dynamic is different with large
> >>claims or where there are coverage issues.
>
> > I dunno... from my recent experience in this area, and from the drift
> > in the industry, the insurance companies seem to have adopted a "deny
> > everything, fight everything" strategy in the last few years. And, as
> > noted, their attitude will change very quickly once you have a lawyer.
>
> While Jay may be better situated regarding resolution dynamics, I know
> enough about insurance (former insurance GC) to say that the cost of
> maintaining higher levels of assets to guarantee payment works against the
> insurer, more so now with deflation in progress. *To sell a larger amount of
> insurance, the company has to acquire and place in guarantee a larger asset
> base. *When interest rates are high, the delaying tactic is more attractive,
> but so is the cost of assets, or liquid backing in the form of a higher
> percentage of premiums.
>
> In short, an insurer is encouraged today to settle quickly, even somewhat
> generously, and at a lower figure than extended discussions will lead to.
> Get a lawyer's advice. *The ones who have declined to represent you figure
> that their income is not pumped up by your congenial post-accident conduct,
> and maybe by their estimate that they can't make much more of it for
> themselves. *I would wait long enough to be sure that there aren't later
> discovered effects of the crash, but not so long as to risk a curtain at the
> end of the limitations period.

I have handled a number of nickle and dime bicycle-related PI claims
for freinds or acquaintances, and in general, I can do better with
hourly work. It is semi pro bono, and I do it as a favor. That's why
the contingent guys aren't taking the case. It is a money loser
unless they can jack up the recovery, and in a small case with no meds
and no wage loss, that's a hard thing to do.

If a lawyer can wrap it up for a fair price with a few phone calls and
a demand letter, then it may pay to take the case -- but then the
plaintiff is only going to get a little more than he would without an
attorney, maybe not enough more to cover the contingent fee. That's
why I say in a no meds no wage loss kind of case, go it alone. Now,
if there are unusual circumstances like a known vicious dog or the
owner sicked the dog on the rider or some real psychological injuries,
then I would get a lawyer to work those issues. -- Jay Beattie.

[Brian Huntley]

On Jan 1, 10:52*am, slide > wrote:
> Steve Sr. wrote:
>
> > I would like to be reimbursed for replacement for my damaged property
> > and bike components. Any idea as to whether the insurance company is
> > going to try to depreciate my property damages before making a
> > settlement offer?
>
> Yes, because that's the law. You can get 10 law firms hired and that
> won't change the law. A court won't permit an unjust enrichment which in
> this case means you get new when old was damaged.
>
> What you can discuss is the residual value of the damaged goods. since
> your damage is probably well below the limits of your local small claims
> court, what you can do is file there if the initial offering from the
> insurance is below what you consider fair.
>
> Remember, legally 'fair' means being made whole again. It doesn't mean
> being made better than you were before the incident.
>
> I handle these cases regularly. Most plaintiffs expect more than they'll
> get based on what they believe is real on TV.

For certain values of 'unjust'.

My bicycle is my primary means of transportation, and is not an off
the shelf item since it has enhancements such as fenders, racks,
lights, etc. If it were to be damaged or destroyed by another, I would
expect proper reimbursement to mean I'd get another bicycle with
similar usefulness and quality. Given that time has a value, a new
bike might be the best way to do that.

And yes, I've been through this, and the insurance companies didn't
have an issue with that way of thinking. I didn't have to go to court
or get lawyers involved.

[[email protected]]

On Dec 31 2008, 9:10*am, " >
wrote:

> With all due respect here, your statement, "The dog
> got in front of my front wheel and caused a crash at about 20-25MPH."
> appears to me to imply that your competence at bike handling might be
> a contributing factor.

Easy to say. Why are you casting stones here?

I had a puppy knock me down by running into my front wheel, like a
little bowling ball. An unexpected move, dumb of me to try to outrun a
dog (even a puppy, with 20-20 hindsight!) something "I knew better"
for many years previous, and so forth, but my "bike handling skills",
which are pretty fair, thankyouverymuch, weren't of any use. A perfect
hit and down I went.

> If a dog runs in front of your bike it is not attacking you. *It would
> have to contact you personally to 'attack' you.

> I think you should definitely try to get the authorities in your area
> to pursue whatever charges against the dog's owner that they can
> because it is very irresponsible to allow the dog to do what it did
> and, also, it is very irresponsible for them to allow the dog to get
> into a situation where it might get injured or killed.

Dogs, and other animals that attack in groups, try "anything" to make
prey easier to kill, including trying to knock the prey down, and/or
causing it to change path, thus falling or at least slowing down in
order to make it easier to do damage.

So, you are completely wrong in your assertion that a dog "running in
front of you" does not constitute an attack. Running in front,
crossing your path, colliding with you, all of these are most
certainly attacks.

Yup, "they're only dogs", it is the owners' responsibility to control
their animals, but I defend myself agressively when necessary (when
shouting or a squirt from the water bottle doesn't work) with no
compunction IRT hurting the dog. At that moment, it's you or the dog,
as they say, and the dog's gotta lose, no matter what.

Or, you can be bitten, possibly crippled (dog's instinct to do damage)
or dragged down and mauled as a female rider in my old club was.
--D-y

[peter]

On Jan 1, 12:11*pm, Brian Huntley > wrote:
> On Jan 1, 10:52*am, slide > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Steve Sr. wrote:
>
> > > I would like to be reimbursed for replacement for my damaged property
> > > and bike components. Any idea as to whether the insurance company is
> > > going to try to depreciate my property damages before making a
> > > settlement offer?
>
> > Yes, because that's the law. You can get 10 law firms hired and that
> > won't change the law. A court won't permit an unjust enrichment which in
> > this case means you get new when old was damaged.
>
> > What you can discuss is the residual value of the damaged goods. since
> > your damage is probably well below the limits of your local small claims
> > court, what you can do is file there if the initial offering from the
> > insurance is below what you consider fair.
>
> > Remember, legally 'fair' means being made whole again. It doesn't mean
> > being made better than you were before the incident.
>
> > I handle these cases regularly. Most plaintiffs expect more than they'll
> > get based on what they believe is real on TV.
>
> For certain values of 'unjust'.
>
> My bicycle is my primary means of transportation, and is not an off
> the shelf item since it has enhancements such as fenders, racks,
> lights, etc. If it were to be damaged or destroyed by another, I would
> expect proper reimbursement to mean I'd get another bicycle with
> similar usefulness and quality. Given that time has a value, a new
> bike might be the best way to do that.
>
> And yes, I've been through this, and the insurance companies didn't
> have an issue with that way of thinking. I didn't have to go to court
> or get lawyers involved.

That was my experience as well. There was no hint from the insurance
companies that I should accept a depreciated value for my damaged
bicycle.

[RicodJour]

On Dec 31 2008, 10:10*am, " >
wrote:
>
> With all due respect here, your statement, "The dog
> got in front of my front wheel and caused a crash at about 20-25MPH."
> appears to me to imply that your competence at bike handling might be
> a contributing factor.

There is no implication, there is your inference based on an evidence-
free assumption. You have no idea what direction the dog came from or
any of the other specifics. If the OP calls it an attack, it probably
was.

> If a dog runs in front of your bike it is not attacking you. *It would
> have to contact you personally to 'attack' you.

Another assumption. You seem to be implying dogs are required to come
up from behind people to give them a sporting chance at outrunning
them.

R

[slide[_2_]]

Brian Huntley wrote:
> On Jan 1, 10:52 am, slide > wrote:

> For certain values of 'unjust'.
>
> My bicycle is my primary means of transportation, and is not an off
> the shelf item since it has enhancements such as fenders, racks,
> lights, etc. If it were to be damaged or destroyed by another, I would
> expect proper reimbursement to mean I'd get another bicycle with
> similar usefulness and quality. Given that time has a value, a new
> bike might be the best way to do that.
>
> And yes, I've been through this, and the insurance companies didn't
> have an issue with that way of thinking. I didn't have to go to court
> or get lawyers involved.

Unjust enrichment in this case means being made substantially better
than whole. Nothing in your post indicates you were so that doesn't
apply. The OP in this case was hoping for new from old and that's unjust.

[slide[_2_]]

peter wrote:
> On Jan 1, 12:11 pm, Brian Huntley > wrote:

>
> That was my experience as well. There was no hint from the insurance
> companies that I should accept a depreciated value for my damaged
> bicycle.

Good for you. Probably the matter was too trivial for them to bother
dickering with you.

[Dan O]

On Jan 2, 6:49 am, slide > wrote:
> Brian Huntley wrote:
> > On Jan 1, 10:52 am, slide > wrote:
> > For certain values of 'unjust'.
>
> > My bicycle is my primary means of transportation, and is not an off
> > the shelf item since it has enhancements such as fenders, racks,
> > lights, etc. If it were to be damaged or destroyed by another, I would
> > expect proper reimbursement to mean I'd get another bicycle with
> > similar usefulness and quality. Given that time has a value, a new
> > bike might be the best way to do that.
>
> > And yes, I've been through this, and the insurance companies didn't
> > have an issue with that way of thinking. I didn't have to go to court
> > or get lawyers involved.
>
> Unjust enrichment in this case means being made substantially better
> than whole. Nothing in your post indicates you were so that doesn't
> apply. The OP in this case was hoping for new from old and that's unjust.

Maybe (and I haven't really read the whole thread), but he experienced
a crash onto the pavement at speed! How do you make that whole?

And I don't know about insurance and that kind of stuff, but I feel
like punitive damages might be in order if the dog owner routinely and
flagrantly neglects to control this hazard. (Loose dogs are often a
menace.)

[Brian Huntley]

On Jan 2, 9:49*am, slide > wrote:
> Brian Huntley wrote:
> > On Jan 1, 10:52 am, slide > wrote:
> > For certain values of 'unjust'.
>
> > My bicycle is my primary means of transportation, and is not an off
> > the shelf item since it has enhancements such as fenders, racks,
> > lights, etc. If it were to be damaged or destroyed by another, I would
> > expect proper reimbursement to mean I'd get another bicycle with
> > similar usefulness and quality. Given that time has a value, a new
> > bike might be the best way to do that.
>
> > And yes, I've been through this, and the insurance companies didn't
> > have an issue with that way of thinking. I didn't have to go to court
> > or get lawyers involved.
>
> Unjust enrichment in this case means being made substantially better
> than whole. Nothing in your post indicates you were so that doesn't
> apply. The OP in this case was hoping for new from old and that's unjust.


The original poster wrote "I would like to be reimbursed for
replacement for my damaged property
and bike components".

I wrote that I got a new bike to replace the one that was effectively
destroyed (frame bent, etc) by a car making a lane change without due
care*, without any discussion about depreciation or "new from old"
issues. I don't see any "unjust enrichment" in either case.

* IE, cutting me off and striking my bike in the process. I ended up
with a broken arm, too, but that was taken care of by my insurance.

[Steve Sr.]

On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 17:43:07 -0800, Michael Press >
wrote:

>In article
>,
> peter > wrote:
>
>> On Dec 30, 5:50*pm, Steve Sr. > wrote:
>>
>> > I would like to be reimbursed for replacement for my damaged property
>> > and bike components. Any idea as to whether the insurance company is
>> > going to try to depreciate my property damages before making a
>> > settlement offer?
>>
>> I've had two similar experiences, one with a dog and the other with a
>> driver who pulled out in front of me. In both cases I got an estimate
>> from a local bike shop on how much it would cost to repair/replace all
>> damaged items (no depreciation) and presented that to the insurance
>> companies (homeowner's in one case and auto in the other). Both times
>> they were very happy to hand me a check for the indicated amount plus
>> tax in exchange for my signature on a statement that this constituted
>> payment in full. I had some road rash both times but chose not to ask
>> for any compensation for that and there were no medical expenses.
>
>Retail price on dressings and medication is not inconsiderable.
>Pain and suffering is worthy of compensation. Healing takes
>time, care, energy, and attention; freedom of movement is hindered.
>
>Tegaderm dressings are the thing for road rash. They cost.

I actually tried the Tegaderm dressings for the road rash. The problem
was that the road rash oozed too much which eventually made the
Tegaderm come loose. Did I use the wrong type of Tegaderm? All of the
road rash I have had likes to ooze.


Steve

[Steve Sr.]

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:26:40 -0800 (PST), peter >
wrote:

>On Dec 30, 5:50*pm, Steve Sr. > wrote:
>
>> I would like to be reimbursed for replacement for my damaged property
>> and bike components. Any idea as to whether the insurance company is
>> going to try to depreciate my property damages before making a
>> settlement offer?
>
>I've had two similar experiences, one with a dog and the other with a
>driver who pulled out in front of me. In both cases I got an estimate
>from a local bike shop on how much it would cost to repair/replace all
>damaged items (no depreciation) and presented that to the insurance
>companies (homeowner's in one case and auto in the other). Both times
>they were very happy to hand me a check for the indicated amount plus
>tax in exchange for my signature on a statement that this constituted
>payment in full. I had some road rash both times but chose not to ask
>for any compensation for that and there were no medical expenses.
>
>But be certain that you don't have any injuries that may show up later
>- if you have any doubts then get checked out thoroughly and delay
>making a final settlement until you're sure.
>
Good point! It has been almost 3 weeks and the wrist that I landed on
is still sore so I made an appointment with the hand doctor for next
week. We'll see what happens.

Steve

[Steve Sr.]

On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 02:51:01 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

>In rec.bicycles.misc Steve Sr. > wrote:
>> Hello,
>
>> I hope that everyone is having a happy holiday season and is looking
>> forward to a safe and prosperous new year.
>
>> I was recently attacked while riding on the road by an unrestrained
>> dog running off the owners property into the public roadway. The dog
>> got in front of my front wheel and caused a crash at about 20-25MPH.
>
>> I sustained minor injuries consisting of contusions and abrasions to
>> my knee, leg, hip, shoulder, and face as well as a sprained wrist.
>> None of these injuries even though painful and inconveniencing were
>> significant enough to require medical treatment.
>
>> The bike sustained mostly cosmetic damage. Both shifters were
>> scratched and gouged as were the right side pedal and the rear
>> deraileur. Every piece of clothing or equipment that I was wearing was
>> damaged by my slide down the asphalt.
>
>> The dog owner has liability insurance. I have talked to a couple of
>> attorneys and they didn't seem too interested in persuing this case
>> because my injuries weren't more severe and there wasn't more
>> potential $ involved. They basically recommended that I try to settle
>> with the insurance company myself.
>
>> So have any of you been in this kind of situation before? Can anyone
>> offer pointers on how to best deal with the insurance company?
>
>> I would like to be reimbursed for replacement for my damaged property
>> and bike components. Any idea as to whether the insurance company is
>> going to try to depreciate my property damages before making a
>> settlement offer?
>
>> I think that I am also entitled to some award for pain and suffering.
>> I have some real nasty looking pictures to prove it. Any idea how to
>> put a value on this? Is the insurance company likely going to try to
>> wiggle out of this altogether?
>
>> Thanks for any insight that you can provide.
>
>> Steve
>
> Steve, I can't offer any advice to you yet, but I was in a similar
>crash a while back. In my case my injuries were substantial and the
>damage to the bike minimal. My health insurer is considering
>subrogating a claim against the dog owner. They're entitled to first
>crack at him, as it's in the contract and their losses were greater.
>But they seem willing to cooperate with me in my own claim after that.
> I will follow this thread with great interest, and will gladly offer
>any advice that I'm able to give once I know what to say. Meanwhile, I
>wish you well. I think maybe in your shoes I'd keep lawyer hunting and
>consider punitive damages as well.
> If you'd like to contact me directly, my real e-mail is below.
>
>Good luck,
>Bill

Thanks for the encouragement. I hope that you have recovered fully. I
will keep the lawyer in mind. I have found one who specializes in bike
crashes who may be good for some bits of advice if not representation.

I don't know if the law in NC would allow punitive damages on a first
offense (for the dog). One attorney I spoke to made it sound like I
couldn't even collect attorney's fees in this case. This is why the
lawyers weren't really interested.

Steve

[Steve Sr.]

On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 18:49:48 +0100, Artemisia > wrote:

>Steve Sr. wrote:
>
>> The dog
>> got in front of my front wheel and caused a crash at about 20-25MPH.
>
>Out of curiosity, what happened to the dog?
>

The dog ran back to his yard after I stopped sliding down the asphalt.
It was still there running loose when the sheriff and I showed up
about 45 minutes later looking for the dog.

Steve

[Steve Sr.]

On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:59:10 -0800 (PST), Mark >
wrote:

>On Dec 30, 7:50?pm, Steve Sr. > wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I hope that everyone is having a happy holiday season and is looking
>> forward to a safe and prosperous new year.
>>
>> I was recently attacked while riding on the road by an unrestrained
>> dog running off the owners property into the public roadway. The dog
>> got in front of my front wheel and caused a crash at about 20-25MPH.
>>
>> I sustained minor injuries consisting of contusions and abrasions to
>> my knee, leg, hip, shoulder, and face as well as a sprained wrist.
>> None of these injuries even though painful and inconveniencing were
>> significant enough to require medical treatment.
>>
>> The bike sustained mostly cosmetic damage. Both shifters were
>> scratched and gouged as were the right side pedal and the rear
>> deraileur. Every piece of clothing or equipment that I was wearing was
>> damaged by my slide down the asphalt.
>>
>> The dog owner has liability insurance. I have talked to a couple of
>> attorneys and they didn't seem too interested in persuing this case
>> because my injuries weren't more severe and there wasn't more
>> potential $ involved. They basically recommended that I try to settle
>> with the insurance company myself.
>>
>> So have any of you been in this kind of situation before? Can anyone
>> offer pointers on how to best deal with the insurance company?
>>
>> I would like to be reimbursed for replacement for my damaged property
>> and bike components. Any idea as to whether the insurance company is
>> going to try to depreciate my property damages before making a
>> settlement offer?
>>
>> I think that I am also entitled to some award for pain and suffering.
>> I have some real nasty looking pictures to prove it. Any idea how to
>> put a value on this? Is the insurance company likely going to try to
>> wiggle out of this altogether?
>>
>> Thanks for any insight that you can provide.
>>
>> Steve
>
>If you don't get the satisfaction that you are looking for from the
>dog owner's homeowner's insurance company, you always have the option
>of taking the owner to small claim's court. However, you make no
>reference of filing a police report. This can make things tougher for
>coming up with a burden of proof.

A report was filed with the local county sheriff's office and there
were witnesses to the aftermath of the crash.

>
>I would suggest ordering the book "Bicycling & The Law", through
>Velonews.com. It has several pages on dog related incidents and
>accidents not involving motor vehicles. Good Luck.

Thanks for the pointer. I'll take a look.

Steve

[Steve Sr.]

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:50:43 -0500, Steve Sr. >
wrote:

>Hello,
>
>I hope that everyone is having a happy holiday season and is looking
>forward to a safe and prosperous new year.
>
>I was recently attacked while riding on the road by an unrestrained
>dog running off the owners property into the public roadway. The dog
>got in front of my front wheel and caused a crash at about 20-25MPH.
>
>I sustained minor injuries consisting of contusions and abrasions to
>my knee, leg, hip, shoulder, and face as well as a sprained wrist.
>None of these injuries even though painful and inconveniencing were
>significant enough to require medical treatment.
>
>The bike sustained mostly cosmetic damage. Both shifters were
>scratched and gouged as were the right side pedal and the rear
>deraileur. Every piece of clothing or equipment that I was wearing was
>damaged by my slide down the asphalt.
>
>The dog owner has liability insurance. I have talked to a couple of
>attorneys and they didn't seem too interested in persuing this case
>because my injuries weren't more severe and there wasn't more
>potential $ involved. They basically recommended that I try to settle
>with the insurance company myself.
>
>So have any of you been in this kind of situation before? Can anyone
>offer pointers on how to best deal with the insurance company?
>
>I would like to be reimbursed for replacement for my damaged property
>and bike components. Any idea as to whether the insurance company is
>going to try to depreciate my property damages before making a
>settlement offer?
>
>I think that I am also entitled to some award for pain and suffering.
>I have some real nasty looking pictures to prove it. Any idea how to
>put a value on this? Is the insurance company likely going to try to
>wiggle out of this altogether?
>
>Thanks for any insight that you can provide.
>
>Steve

Thanks everyone for your advice and suggestions especially those of
you who are practitioners. The bike is currently in the shop being
estimated. I haven't started shopping to replace damaged personal gear
yet. I have an appointment on Tuesday to have my wrist looked at.
After almost 3 weeks is is still too painful with use.

Steve

[Michael Press]

In article >,
Steve Sr. > wrote:

> On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 17:43:07 -0800, Michael Press >
> wrote:
>
> >In article
> >,
> > peter > wrote:
> >
> >> On Dec 30, 5:50*pm, Steve Sr. > wrote:
> >>
> >> > I would like to be reimbursed for replacement for my damaged property
> >> > and bike components. Any idea as to whether the insurance company is
> >> > going to try to depreciate my property damages before making a
> >> > settlement offer?
> >>
> >> I've had two similar experiences, one with a dog and the other with a
> >> driver who pulled out in front of me. In both cases I got an estimate
> >> from a local bike shop on how much it would cost to repair/replace all
> >> damaged items (no depreciation) and presented that to the insurance
> >> companies (homeowner's in one case and auto in the other). Both times
> >> they were very happy to hand me a check for the indicated amount plus
> >> tax in exchange for my signature on a statement that this constituted
> >> payment in full. I had some road rash both times but chose not to ask
> >> for any compensation for that and there were no medical expenses.
> >
> >Retail price on dressings and medication is not inconsiderable.
> >Pain and suffering is worthy of compensation. Healing takes
> >time, care, energy, and attention; freedom of movement is hindered.
> >
> >Tegaderm dressings are the thing for road rash. They cost.
>
> I actually tried the Tegaderm dressings for the road rash. The problem
> was that the road rash oozed too much which eventually made the
> Tegaderm come loose. Did I use the wrong type of Tegaderm? All of the
> road rash I have had likes to ooze.

That's all right. If it comes off, too bad. Wash, scrub
the good skin to remove exfoliating cells (allows better
dressing adhesion), rinse with 91% ipa, then apply a new
dressing. The liquid under the tegaderm is _good_. The
tissue is healing in a perfect bath of fluid. Looks
appalling, as would any window into bodily function.

They say do not apply to bleeding wounds, and that is
reasonable. Once outright bleeding stops, apply the
tegaderm. Tegaderm dressed wounds scar very much less
then dry dressed wounds.

--
Michael Press

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Fri, 02 Jan 2009 07:50:11 -0700, slide >
wrote:

>peter wrote:
>> On Jan 1, 12:11 pm, Brian Huntley > wrote:
>
>>
>> That was my experience as well. There was no hint from the insurance
>> companies that I should accept a depreciated value for my damaged
>> bicycle.
>
>Good for you. Probably the matter was too trivial for them to bother
>dickering with you.

The problem is that a used bicycle that you yourself has used has a
predictable amount of wear. A bicycle used a supposedly similar
amount by other people carries an element of unpredictability that
makes it less valuable to you..

[terryc]

On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 01:11:41 +0000, John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

> The problem is that a used bicycle that you yourself has used has a
> predictable amount of wear. A bicycle used a supposedly similar
> amount by other people carries an element of unpredictability that
> makes it less valuable to you..

Agred, but the ability to do full maintenance can remove a lot of the
unpredictability. all that is then left is running your eye over the frame
very carefully.

[Mark]

<The bike sustained mostly cosmetic damage. Both shifters were
<scratched and gouged as were the right side pedal and the rear
<deraileur. Every piece of clothing or equipment that I was
<wearing was damaged by my slide down the asphalt.


You probably won't receive anything from the insurance company because
the total cost won't even be covered by the deductable. No wonder no
attorney will look at this. You will need small claims court against
the dog owner because of the insurance deductable.

[[email protected]]

Mark wrote:
> <The bike sustained mostly cosmetic damage. Both shifters were
> <scratched and gouged as were the right side pedal and the rear
> <deraileur. Every piece of clothing or equipment that I was
> <wearing was damaged by my slide down the asphalt.
>
>
> You probably won't receive anything from the insurance company because
> the total cost won't even be covered by the deductable. No wonder no
> attorney will look at this. You will need small claims court against
> the dog owner because of the insurance deductable.
>
That was not worth bugging **your** insurance carrier. Should have been
his. Insurance companies could care less about scratches.
Bill Baka

[Peter Rathmann]

On Jan 4, 5:40*pm, Mark > wrote:
> <The bike sustained mostly cosmetic damage. Both shifters were
> <scratched and gouged as were the right side pedal and the rear
> <deraileur. Every piece of clothing or equipment that I was
> <wearing was damaged by my slide down the asphalt.
>
> You probably won't receive anything from the insurance company because
> the total cost won't even be covered by the deductable.

You file the claim against the liability coverage the dog owner has
from his homeowner's insurance. Generally there is no deductible on
liability coverage.

> No wonder no
> attorney will look at this. *You will need small claims court against
> the dog owner because of the insurance deductable.

A suit in small claims court would only be needed if you can't get a
satisfactory settlement with the dog owner's insurance company.

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

On Dec 31 2008, 11:43*am, Jay Beattie >
wrote:
> On Dec 31, 5:32*am, Qui si parla Campagnolo >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 30, 6:50*pm, Steve Sr. > wrote:
>
> > > Hello,
>
> > > I hope that everyone is having a happy holiday season and is looking
> > > forward to a safe and prosperous new year.
>
> > > I was recently attacked while riding on the road by an unrestrained
> > > dog running off the owners property into the public roadway. The dog
> > > got in front of my front wheel and caused a crash at about 20-25MPH.
>
> > > I sustained minor injuries consisting of contusions and abrasions to
> > > my knee, leg, hip, shoulder, and face as well as a sprained wrist.
> > > None of these injuries even though painful and inconveniencing were
> > > significant enough to require medical treatment.
>
> > > The bike sustained mostly cosmetic damage. Both shifters were
> > > scratched and gouged as were the right side pedal and the rear
> > > deraileur. Every piece of clothing or equipment that I was wearing was
> > > damaged by my slide down the asphalt.
>
> > > The dog owner has liability insurance. I have talked to a couple of
> > > attorneys and they didn't seem too interested in persuing this case
> > > because my injuries weren't more severe and there wasn't more
> > > potential $ involved. They basically recommended that I try to settle
> > > with the insurance company myself.
>
> > > So have any of you been in this kind of situation before? Can anyone
> > > offer pointers on how to best deal with the insurance company?
>
> > > I would like to be reimbursed for replacement for my damaged property
> > > and bike components. Any idea as to whether the insurance company is
> > > going to try to depreciate my property damages before making a
> > > settlement offer?
>
> > > I think that I am also entitled to some award for pain and suffering.
> > > I have some real nasty looking pictures to prove it. Any idea how to
> > > put a value on this? Is the insurance company likely going to try to
> > > wiggle out of this altogether?
>
> > > Thanks for any insight that you can provide.
>
> > > Steve
>
> > Keep looking for a lawyer. The insurance company will use one, you
> > should too.- Hide quoted text -
>
> Unlikely that the insurance company would hire a lawyer. They don't
> want to spend the money handling a small claim and will retain counsel
> only when the plaintiff sues. *The dynamic is different with large
> claims or where there are coverage issues.

You must be kidding. They have many, many lawyers on their staff all
the time.
>
> Insurers have gotten fussy about dogs and ofter exclude coverage for
> dogs with known tempers or prior misconduct. *I think the OP would
> know by now if the insurer was denying coverage.
>
> The OP should be prepared for hard bargaining and finger pointing
> (claims of comparative fault). *Don't get riled up; this is SOP and
> perfectly appropriate under the circumstances. *Negotiations with
> adjusters swirl down the toilet when plaintiff takes personal offense
> when he or she does not get a blank check from the insurance company.
> It's horse trading. *Get tough but stay polite.

I still recommend having a lawyer do this for the OP. A PI lawyer is
trained in the intricacies of insurance dealings.
>
> I would recommend that the OP: (1) find out if there is a state
> statute allowing recovery of attorneys fees in small cases. *Many
> states (including Oregon) have statutes allowing plaintiffs to recover
> attorneys fees in claims under a certain dollar amount, usually
> between 5 and 10K. *The potential for a fee award is a real motivator
> to settle, (2) find out if small cases go to arbitration or a jury
> trial. That cuts both ways, since jurors are sometimes not very
> sympathetic to bicyclists. *Arbitrators are sometimes a better draw.
> In any event, you will know whether to threaten a jury trial and won't
> look stupid. *(3) Get shop estimates for replacement and estimates of
> salvage value, (4) gather up all the meds and pictures and (4) write a
> written demand letter with a specific response time that includes a
> dollar demand for property and personal injury settlement. *Attach
> pictures and estimates.
>
> I would also find out whether this dog has a history, if possible --
> but that would probably require a lawsuit to finid out unless there is
> a bad dog data base in the state.
>
> The settlement amount for property does not have a lot of wiggle room.
> It should be the amount in the replacement invoices less salvage value
> (if you want to keep or sell the scratched parts). *The amount for
> personal injury is subjective since there are no medical bills or
> treatment and probably no time lost from work. *I would see if you can
> get the name of a local laywer just to talk to him or her about value
> -- someone who handles small cases and is willing to chat for a minute
> or two for free. *I would ask for $2,500 and settle for $1,000, but
> that's just because I would want to get it over. *If I were
> representing a plaintiff, the amount demanded would depend on a lot of
> factors (including the appearance of the client, the fact that I would
> be taking a contingent fee), but even on a good day, a scratch and
> bruise case without some orthopedic injury or significant medical
> bills or lost time from work is not going to bring in big bucks. --
> Jay Beattie.

I THINK the biggest mistake the OP made was assuming that none of his
injuries required medical treatment. He should have let the medical
treatment person determine that. PLUS face injury, any concussion?
Probably.

[Jay Beattie]

On Jan 5, 11:44*am, Qui si parla Campagnolo >
wrote:
> On Dec 31 2008, 11:43*am, Jay Beattie >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 31, 5:32*am, Qui si parla Campagnolo >
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 30, 6:50*pm, Steve Sr. > wrote:
>
> > > > Hello,
>
> > > > I hope that everyone is having a happy holiday season and is looking
> > > > forward to a safe and prosperous new year.
>
> > > > I was recently attacked while riding on the road by an unrestrained
> > > > dog running off the owners property into the public roadway. The dog
> > > > got in front of my front wheel and caused a crash at about 20-25MPH..
>
> > > > I sustained minor injuries consisting of contusions and abrasions to
> > > > my knee, leg, hip, shoulder, and face as well as a sprained wrist.
> > > > None of these injuries even though painful and inconveniencing were
> > > > significant enough to require medical treatment.
>
> > > > The bike sustained mostly cosmetic damage. Both shifters were
> > > > scratched and gouged as were the right side pedal and the rear
> > > > deraileur. Every piece of clothing or equipment that I was wearing was
> > > > damaged by my slide down the asphalt.
>
> > > > The dog owner has liability insurance. I have talked to a couple of
> > > > attorneys and they didn't seem too interested in persuing this case
> > > > because my injuries weren't more severe and there wasn't more
> > > > potential $ involved. They basically recommended that I try to settle
> > > > with the insurance company myself.
>
> > > > So have any of you been in this kind of situation before? Can anyone
> > > > offer pointers on how to best deal with the insurance company?
>
> > > > I would like to be reimbursed for replacement for my damaged property
> > > > and bike components. Any idea as to whether the insurance company is
> > > > going to try to depreciate my property damages before making a
> > > > settlement offer?
>
> > > > I think that I am also entitled to some award for pain and suffering.
> > > > I have some real nasty looking pictures to prove it. Any idea how to
> > > > put a value on this? Is the insurance company likely going to try to
> > > > wiggle out of this altogether?
>
> > > > Thanks for any insight that you can provide.
>
> > > > Steve
>
> > > Keep looking for a lawyer. The insurance company will use one, you
> > > should too.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > Unlikely that the insurance company would hire a lawyer. They don't
> > want to spend the money handling a small claim and will retain counsel
> > only when the plaintiff sues. *The dynamic is different with large
> > claims or where there are coverage issues.
>
> You must be kidding. They have many, many lawyers on their staff all
> the time.

Large insurers have house staff that handle regulatory affairs and
some have in-house claims attorneys -- but the insurers with in-house
claims attorneys are the minority, and the trend is toward more
outsourcing. Even companies with in-house claims attorneys may not
involve them in small claims for financial reasons and because
adjusters do not like to involve attorneys in a nickle and dime claims
because it makes them feel stupid. It's like paying someone to fix a
flat tire. -- Jay Beattie.