Traffic Light Spoofer for Cyclists

[Bret Cahill[_2_]]

I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
respond.

If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
intersection into changing the light!

This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.


Bret Cahill

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:00:44 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
> wrote:

>I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
>respond.
>
>If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
>intersection into changing the light!
>
>This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.
>
>
>Bret Cahill
>

Do you mean that your bike is ignored by magnetic-loop sensors?

I'd think that a reasonable bit of electronics and a ferrite-core loop
antenna could detect the big loop frequency and generate some signal
that would simulate a car. It would take a little research, but the
numbers don't look unreasonable to me; the loops are just metal
detectors, looking for a fairly small inductance change.

John

[Peter Rathmann]

On Jan 19, 9:00*pm, Bret Cahill > wrote:
> I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
> respond.
>
> If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
> intersection into changing the light!
>
> This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.

But might be unnecessary if you have some cooperation from the local
DoT. I've found that just laying the bike down a little over the
sensor area of the road gets almost all the lights to trigger in our
area (northern Cal.) and the traffic authorities are pretty good about
coming out and adjusting the few that don't. This assumes you have
aluminum rims to trigger the induction loop detectors.

[Jasen Betts]

On 2009-01-20, Peter Rathmann > wrote:
> On Jan 19, 9:00Â*pm, Bret Cahill > wrote:
>> I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
>> respond.
>>
>> If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
>> intersection into changing the light!
>>
>> This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.
>
> But might be unnecessary if you have some cooperation from the local
> DoT. I've found that just laying the bike down a little over the
> sensor area of the road gets almost all the lights to trigger in our
> area (northern Cal.) and the traffic authorities are pretty good about
> coming out and adjusting the few that don't. This assumes you have
> aluminum rims to trigger the induction loop detectors.

I have found that just putting the front wheel on the cut line
where the sensor loop is installed is enough.

unfortunately motor cycles have thicker tyres smaller wheels and are
harder lie down and pick up.

OTOH Bret says 9v (not 6V or 12V) so chances are he's using leg-power
and not a motor.

[Alex Colvin]

>If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
>intersection into changing the light!


See
<http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/felten/remote-controls-traffic-lights>.

>This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.

See also <http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2005/08/68507>.
--
mac the naïf

[Jasen Betts]

On 2009-01-20, Jasen Betts > wrote:
> On 2009-01-20, Peter Rathmann > wrote:
>> On Jan 19, 9:00Â*pm, Bret Cahill > wrote:
>>> I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
>>> respond.
>>>
>>> If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
>>> intersection into changing the light!
>>>
>>> This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.
>>
>> But might be unnecessary if you have some cooperation from the local
>> DoT. I've found that just laying the bike down a little over the
>> sensor area of the road gets almost all the lights to trigger in our
>> area (northern Cal.) and the traffic authorities are pretty good about
>> coming out and adjusting the few that don't. This assumes you have
>> aluminum rims to trigger the induction loop detectors.
>
> I have found that just putting the front wheel on the cut line
> where the sensor loop is installed is enough.
>
> unfortunately motor cycles have thicker tyres smaller wheels and are
> harder lie down and pick up.
>
> OTOH Bret says 9v (not 6V or 12V) so chances are he's using leg-power
> and not a motor.

OTOH I could har simply tead the subject line!
"cyclists" generallt excludes motorcyclists.
D'oh.

[Rich Grise]

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:00:44 -0800, Bret Cahill wrote:

> I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
> respond.
>
> If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
> intersection into changing the light!
>
> This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.

I once saw a web page, which I can't find now, where the cyclist tipped
the bike, to make the frame more nearly parallel to the loop, to improve
the inductive coupling.

A google search just now turned up mostly neodymium magnets.

If you're talking about that strobe that emergency vehicles use, be sure
you don't get caught.

Have Fun!
Rich

[Paul E. Schoen]

"Rich Grise" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:00:44 -0800, Bret Cahill wrote:
>
>> I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
>> respond.
>>
>> If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
>> intersection into changing the light!
>>
>> This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.
>
> I once saw a web page, which I can't find now, where the cyclist tipped
> the bike, to make the frame more nearly parallel to the loop, to improve
> the inductive coupling.
>
> A google search just now turned up mostly neodymium magnets.
>
> If you're talking about that strobe that emergency vehicles use, be sure
> you don't get caught.

I have always wondered why they did not design the strobe so that it turned
lights red in all directions. Then all traffic would stop, except for the
emergency vehicle, and the worst that an illegal strobe could do would be
to disrupt traffic and annoy people.

Paul

[Peter Rathmann]

On Jan 20, 3:58*pm, "Paul E. Schoen" > wrote:
> "Rich Grise" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:00:44 -0800, Bret Cahill wrote:
>
> >> I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
> >> respond.
>
> >> If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
> >> intersection into changing the light!
>
> >> This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.
>
> > I once saw a web page, which I can't find now, where the cyclist tipped
> > the bike, to make the frame more nearly parallel to the loop, to improve
> > the inductive coupling.
>
> > A google search just now turned up mostly neodymium magnets.
>
> > If you're talking about that strobe that emergency vehicles use, be sure
> > you don't get caught.
>
> I have always wondered why they did not design the strobe so that it turned
> lights red in all directions. Then all traffic would stop, except for the
> emergency vehicle, and the worst that an illegal strobe could do would be
> to disrupt traffic and annoy people.

No, the worst situation under that system is that the legal strobe on
the emergency vehicle fails to trigger the signal. Then the emergency
vehicle goes barreling through the red and right into the cross
traffic that still has a green. Better to have things so that even if
parts fail they tend to do so in ways that are still fairly safe.

[Paul E. Schoen]

"Peter Rathmann" > wrote in message
...
On Jan 20, 3:58 pm, "Paul E. Schoen" > wrote:
> "Rich Grise" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:00:44 -0800, Bret Cahill wrote:
>
> >> I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
> >> respond.
>
> >> If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
> >> intersection into changing the light!
>
> >> This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.
>
> > I once saw a web page, which I can't find now, where the cyclist tipped
> > the bike, to make the frame more nearly parallel to the loop, to
> > improve
> > the inductive coupling.
>
> > A google search just now turned up mostly neodymium magnets.
>
> > If you're talking about that strobe that emergency vehicles use, be
> > sure
> > you don't get caught.
>
> I have always wondered why they did not design the strobe so that it
> turned
> lights red in all directions. Then all traffic would stop, except for the
> emergency vehicle, and the worst that an illegal strobe could do would be
> to disrupt traffic and annoy people.

No, the worst situation under that system is that the legal strobe on
the emergency vehicle fails to trigger the signal. Then the emergency
vehicle goes barreling through the red and right into the cross
traffic that still has a green. Better to have things so that even if
parts fail they tend to do so in ways that are still fairly safe.

Most traffic lights are set to fail-safe as flashing red, which at least
requires all vehicles to stop before proceeding. Emergency vehicles should
never just barrel through an intersection with the assumption that the
lights are properly set, and it should be easy enough to verify that the
lights in the cross direction are indeed also red. One fail-safe indicator
would be to make the lights flash when the emergency condition is set.
Otherwise there could be indicators on the sides of traffic lights to
indicate their color.

Paul

[SMS]

Paul E. Schoen wrote:
> "Rich Grise" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:00:44 -0800, Bret Cahill wrote:
>>
>>> I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
>>> respond.
>>>
>>> If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
>>> intersection into changing the light!
>>>
>>> This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.
>> I once saw a web page, which I can't find now, where the cyclist tipped
>> the bike, to make the frame more nearly parallel to the loop, to improve
>> the inductive coupling.
>>
>> A google search just now turned up mostly neodymium magnets.
>>
>> If you're talking about that strobe that emergency vehicles use, be sure
>> you don't get caught.
>
> I have always wondered why they did not design the strobe so that it turned
> lights red in all directions.

The sensor picks up the strobe, the strobe doesn't do anything by
itself. The controller can be programmed to do whatever the traffic
engineer wants, including "all-red" which would at least eliminate the
incentive to have an illegal strobe.

It's highly unlikely that they would ever catch you with an illegal
strobe, unless its use caused an accident.

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
Bret Cahill > writes:
> I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
> respond.
>
> If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
> intersection into changing the light!
>
> This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.

With the sensor loops here in Vancouver BC, positioning over them
is important to getting some of them them to trip. We've got 4
kinds of loops, or rather, pavement cuts over the loops -- circular,
diamond, rectangular, and double-rectangles. With the former three,
positioning one's self & bike over the right half and maybe leaning
your bike a little gets them to trip. With the latter
(double-rectangle) type, just position yourself over the backbone/
centre cut.

If that doesn't work, you can share the left turn lane and invite
the driver behind you to come up and stop their car over the sensor.
The drivers are grateful & appreciative that you're not holding them
back, and everybody (including you) gets to go. If there's no
driver behind you and the sensor doesn't trip the traffic light,
just treat the intersection as a 4-way after waiting out what
should have been one normal light cycle. Or just go, if there's
nobody around to be adversely affected by your traffic movements,
and no traffic cops lurking behind a nearby billboard or something,
just itching to issue a ticket to somebody.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Peter Rathmann]

On Jan 20, 7:26*pm, "Paul E. Schoen" > wrote:
> "Peter Rathmann" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Jan 20, 3:58 pm, "Paul E. Schoen" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Rich Grise" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > > On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:00:44 -0800, Bret Cahill wrote:
>
> > >> I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
> > >> respond.
>
> > >> If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
> > >> intersection into changing the light!
>
> > >> This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation..
>
> > > I once saw a web page, which I can't find now, where the cyclist tipped
> > > the bike, to make the frame more nearly parallel to the loop, to
> > > improve
> > > the inductive coupling.
>
> > > A google search just now turned up mostly neodymium magnets.
>
> > > If you're talking about that strobe that emergency vehicles use, be
> > > sure
> > > you don't get caught.
>
> > I have always wondered why they did not design the strobe so that it
> > turned
> > lights red in all directions. Then all traffic would stop, except for the
> > emergency vehicle, and the worst that an illegal strobe could do would be
> > to disrupt traffic and annoy people.
>
> * No, the worst situation under that system is that the legal strobe on
> * the emergency vehicle fails to trigger the signal. *Then the emergency
> * vehicle goes barreling through the red and right into the cross
> * traffic that still has a green. *Better to have things so that even if
> * parts fail they tend to do so in ways that are still fairly safe.
>
> Most traffic lights are set to fail-safe as flashing red, which at least
> requires all vehicles to stop before proceeding. Emergency vehicles should
> never just barrel through an intersection with the assumption that the
> lights are properly set, and it should be easy enough to verify that the
> lights in the cross direction are indeed also red. One fail-safe indicator
> would be to make the lights flash when the emergency condition is set.
> Otherwise there could be indicators on the sides of traffic lights to
> indicate their color.

Still strikes me that the current system where the emergency vehicle
driver sees a clear green traffic light is safer than one where he has
to check for secondary indicators for the cross traffic direction. And
flashing red for cross traffic is not as safe since drivers in that
direction may well see that other traffic is stopping and start to
cross after a momentary stop without noticing the emergency vehicle
maneuvering past the stopped vehicles. It's also better for the
emergency driver if the vehicles in front of him have a green so they
can maneuver out of his way.

If illegal strobes ever become a significant problem it seems to me
that can be remedied by stiff penalties combined with cameras to
record the plate number of any vehicle that sends out a strobe signal.
But don't decrease the safety of the current system for letting
emergency vehicles have a green signal while the other directions have
a solid red.

[[email protected]]

Bretski,
Back when I used to ride on the road I used to get stuck at a certain
intersection...I found the following on Instructables.com, I never got
around to trying it:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Traffic-Light-Trigger-for-your-Bike/

ABS-ski

[Tom Sherman[_2_]]

Tom Keats wrote:
> In article >,
> Bret Cahill > writes:
>> I pull up in the left hand turn lane and the traffic light doesn't
>> respond.
>>
>> If only I had a 9 volt battery powered spoofer that would trick the
>> intersection into changing the light!
>>
>> This might require some cooperation with the Dept. of Transportation.
>
> With the sensor loops here in Vancouver BC, positioning over them
> is important to getting some of them them to trip. We've got 4
> kinds of loops, or rather, pavement cuts over the loops -- circular,
> diamond, rectangular, and double-rectangles. With the former three,
> positioning one's self & bike over the right half and maybe leaning
> your bike a little gets them to trip. With the latter
> (double-rectangle) type, just position yourself over the backbone/
> centre cut.
>
> If that doesn't work, you can share the left turn lane and invite
> the driver behind you to come up and stop their car over the sensor.
> The drivers are grateful & appreciative that you're not holding them
> back, and everybody (including you) gets to go. If there's no
> driver behind you and the sensor doesn't trip the traffic light,
> just treat the intersection as a 4-way after waiting out what
> should have been one normal light cycle. Or just go, if there's
> nobody around to be adversely affected by your traffic movements,
> and no traffic cops lurking behind a nearby billboard or something,
> just itching to issue a ticket to somebody.
>
If your bicycle will not trigger a green light, the signal can be
considered defective, and you have the legal right (in the US) to
proceed as long as you yield to cross traffic.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

[Nobody]

On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 18:58:48 -0500, Paul E. Schoen wrote:

>> If you're talking about that strobe that emergency vehicles use, be sure
>> you don't get caught.
>
> I have always wondered why they did not design the strobe so that it turned
> lights red in all directions. Then all traffic would stop, except for the
> emergency vehicle,

The emergency vehicle would be stuck behind the stopped traffic.

[DougC]

Peter Rathmann wrote:
> On Jan 20, 3:58 pm, "Paul E. Schoen" > wrote:
>> "Rich Grise" > wrote in message
>> ....
>> I have always wondered why they did not design the strobe so that it turned
>> lights red in all directions. Then all traffic would stop, except for the
>> emergency vehicle, and the worst that an illegal strobe could do would be
>> to disrupt traffic and annoy people.
>
> No, the worst situation under that system is that the legal strobe on
> the emergency vehicle fails to trigger the signal. Then the emergency
> vehicle goes barreling through the red and right into the cross
> traffic that still has a green. Better to have things so that even if
> parts fail they tend to do so in ways that are still fairly safe.

Where I live (IL, USA) the strobe system has a while spotlight that
faces each direction that there are sensors. When the strobe on the
emergency vehicle triggers the traffic light system, the spotlight
facing the same direction of the triggered sensor turns on, to tell the
emergency vehicle that the traffic lights have been activated. The
emergency vehicles still do not "blast through at full speed" because
there's always people who will try to race a red light.

Sometimes even,,,, the people you'd think would know better....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM_2bERbj54

(I do not know if there was emergency triggers or not, from Google
Streetview it appears not and the news articles do not mention any)
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=taylor+avenue,+st.+louis,+mo&sll=37.09024,-95.712891&sspn=48.641855,79.101563&ie=UTF8&ll=38.657621,-90.24765&spn=0.002949,0.013733&z=17&layer=c&cbll=38.65783,-90.248117&panoid=vtnQN1M-MHYFDVx1CKSaGA&cbp=11,137.6783819425063,,0,1.5927625073623732
tinyURL:
http://tinyurl.com/9xlzau

Most are very simple to trigger, they are only analog circuits and the
pulse frequency I have heard is 30 cycles per second.... Except that (in
IL) there is a section of the state motor vehicle code that prohibits
unauthorized persons or vehicles from triggering these emergency light
systems. I would guess anywhere that has these lights will have a
similar law.

-----

Most of these things you see online (to trigger inductive loops) are
total BS. Permanent magnets will not trigger an inductive loop at all,
because permanent magnets do not display inductance at all.

I have not seen anything in my state's motor vehicle code that says that
you cannot artificially trigger an induction loop,,, so I /guess/ it
would be legal to have one on a bicycle.

As I have been told, the loops are fed a signal between ~20kHz to
~80kHz. Each loop at an intersection must use a different frequency, to
avoid cross-talk inside the control box where the loops converge--so one
frequency will *not* work for all traffic sensors. On each loop there is
a circuit to detect the phase change of the loop. The phase change you
target should probably be negative, as ferrous objects under a metal
detector result in negative phase and cars are mostly made of iron alloys.

The frequency of each loop does not change, so it might be possible to
make this device relatively simply. The device does not need to sample
the frequency and transmit it at the same time, so one antenna could do
both jobs (first sample, and then switch to transmitting).

It might work to just attach a coil antenna to a capacitor, that has a
resonant frequency of well under 20kHz. I'd think you might need a
pretty big ferrite stick to make it work well though.

You can get big 4500u ferrite rods from
http://www.stormwise.com/page26.htm
$50 each or so.

AM radio antenna ferrites will not work real well for this; AM radio is
at much higher frequencies.
~

[Rich Grise]

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 07:27:06 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:
>>
> If your bicycle will not trigger a green light, the signal can be
> considered defective, and you have the legal right (in the US) to proceed
> as long as you yield to cross traffic.

Or, you could get off the bike and press the "Walk" button. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

[Mike A Schwab]

On Jan 20, 5:58*pm, "Paul E. Schoen" > wrote:
> "Rich Grise" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
<deleted>
> I have always wondered why they did not design the strobe so that it turned
> lights red in all directions. Then all traffic would stop, except for the
> emergency vehicle, and the worst that an illegal strobe could do would be
> to disrupt traffic and annoy people.
>
> Paul- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

But then all the traffic in front of the emergency vehicle would block
in the emergency vehicle. The green light lets the traffic through
and pull off to the side.

[[email protected]]

SMS wrote:

>Paul E. Schoen wrote:

>> Rich Grise wrote...

>>> On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:00:44 -0800, Bret Cahill wrote:
>>> If you're talking about that strobe that emergency vehicles use, be sure
>>> you don't get caught.

>> I have always wondered why they did not design the strobe so that it turned
>> lights red in all directions.

>The sensor picks up the strobe, the strobe doesn't do anything by
>itself. The controller can be programmed to do whatever the traffic
>engineer wants, including "all-red" which would at least eliminate the
>incentive to have an illegal strobe.
>
>It's highly unlikely that they would ever catch you with an illegal
>strobe, unless its use caused an accident.

I wonder if an IR or UV strobe would work? Any cop in front of you
will notice a visible-light strobe.

[Patrick Lamb]

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 18:36:47 GMT, Rich Grise > wrote:

>On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 07:27:06 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>
>> If your bicycle will not trigger a green light, the signal can be
>> considered defective, and you have the legal right (in the US) to proceed
>> as long as you yield to cross traffic.
>
>Or, you could get off the bike and press the "Walk" button. ;-)

That makes precisely as much sense as suggesting a motorist at a light
which doesn't change for them should get out of their car, walk over
to the curb and press the "Walk" button.

Pat

Email address works as is.

[Frank Krygowski[_2_]]

On Jan 21, 2:32*pm, Mike A Schwab > wrote:
> On Jan 20, 5:58*pm, "Paul E. Schoen" > wrote:
>
> > "Rich Grise" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> <deleted>
> > I have always wondered why they did not design the strobe so that it turned
> > lights red in all directions. Then all traffic would stop, except for the
> > emergency vehicle, and the worst that an illegal strobe could do would be
> > to disrupt traffic and annoy people.
>
> > Paul- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> But then all the traffic in front of the emergency vehicle would block
> in the emergency vehicle. *The green light lets the traffic through
> and pull off to the side.

In our area, a civic group proposed improving a certain ugly 5 lane
road through a village by turning it into a boulevard. Opponents
claimed it would cause back up traffic, and that people would die in
house fires.

One of my friends is a fireman. When he heard that objection, he
laughed. He says for a fire truck or ambulance, there is no such
obstruction. They simply drive down the oncoming lane when
necessary.

- Frank Krygowski

[Tom Sherman[_2_]]

Rich Grise wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 07:27:06 -0600, Tom Sherman wrote:
>> If your bicycle will not trigger a green light, the signal can be
>> considered defective, and you have the legal right (in the US) to proceed
>> as long as you yield to cross traffic.
>
> Or, you could get off the bike and press the "Walk" button. ;-)
>
Getting off the bike is too much of a hassle:
<http://www.ransbikes.com/Gallery/Archive/images/Sherman1.jpg>!

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

[Jasen Betts]

On 2009-01-21, > wrote:

>>It's highly unlikely that they would ever catch you with an illegal
>>strobe, unless its use caused an accident.
>
> I wonder if an IR or UV strobe would work? Any cop in front of you
> will notice a visible-light strobe.

I saw a xenon flash front light for a bike...

[Michael A. Terrell]

Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> In our area, a civic group proposed improving a certain ugly 5 lane
> road through a village by turning it into a boulevard. Opponents
> claimed it would cause back up traffic, and that people would die in
> house fires.
>
> One of my friends is a fireman. When he heard that objection, he
> laughed. He says for a fire truck or ambulance, there is no such
> obstruction. They simply drive down the oncoming lane when
> necessary.


Not always possible. Some roads have large concrete barriers between
opposing lanes that would cause severe damage to the fire truck or
ambulance. I have seen ones over four feet high and several feet
thick. They are strong enough to stop a vehicle hitting it head on at
35 MPH+.

--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html

aioe.org, Goggle Groups, and Web TV users must request to be white
listed, or I will not see your messages.

If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm


There are two kinds of people on this earth:
The crazy, and the insane.
The first sign of insanity is denying that you're crazy.

[Frank Krygowski[_2_]]

On Jan 22, 4:42*pm, "Michael A. Terrell" >
wrote:
> Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> > In our area, a civic group proposed improving a certain ugly 5 lane
> > road through a village by turning it into a boulevard. *Opponents
> > claimed it would cause back up traffic, and that people would die in
> > house fires.
>
> > One of my friends is a fireman. *When he heard that objection, he
> > laughed. *He says for a fire truck or ambulance, there is no such
> > obstruction. *They simply drive down the oncoming lane when
> > necessary.
>
> * *Not always possible. *Some roads have large concrete barriers between
> opposing lanes that would cause severe damage to the fire truck or
> ambulance. *I have seen ones over four feet high and several feet
> thick. *They are strong enough to stop a vehicle hitting it head on at
> 35 MPH+.

Admittedly, that's true. Worse yet, there are roads where the
eastbound and westbound lanes are separated by gullies, rivers or
cliffs. But perhaps we can agree those cases are not quite normal?

My friend was talking about the roads in his fire district, which I
know well. Nearly all American roads are similar, and present no such
problems.

- Frank Krygowski

[Chris[_12_]]

There are two easy ways to tigger lights assuming there is an
induction loop and you have a metal bicycle (another reason to avoid
carbon fiber).

- Rare earth magnet (I am fond of expoying a pair in to the lugs of
your bike shoes, but many people use regular shoes)
- Lay the bike down in the middle of the induction loop (which is
alkward if loaded with stuff or in a busy intersection)

Some cities are starting to include bike specific sensors which
trigger lights in the United States, such as Portland, Seattle, and
Tucson, but not as many as one would hope and not as wide spread as
one would hope either. On occasion, using the Walk button, or
crosswalk is simply more practical.

Chris

[Michael A. Terrell]

Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> On Jan 22, 4:42 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" >
> wrote:
> > Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >
> > > In our area, a civic group proposed improving a certain ugly 5 lane
> > > road through a village by turning it into a boulevard. Opponents
> > > claimed it would cause back up traffic, and that people would die in
> > > house fires.
> >
> > > One of my friends is a fireman. When he heard that objection, he
> > > laughed. He says for a fire truck or ambulance, there is no such
> > > obstruction. They simply drive down the oncoming lane when
> > > necessary.
> >
> > Not always possible. Some roads have large concrete barriers between
> > opposing lanes that would cause severe damage to the fire truck or
> > ambulance. I have seen ones over four feet high and several feet
> > thick. They are strong enough to stop a vehicle hitting it head on at
> > 35 MPH+.
>
> Admittedly, that's true. Worse yet, there are roads where the
> eastbound and westbound lanes are separated by gullies, rivers or
> cliffs. But perhaps we can agree those cases are not quite normal?
>
> My friend was talking about the roads in his fire district, which I
> know well. Nearly all American roads are similar, and present no such
> problems.
>
> - Frank Krygowski


Most of the main roads around here are protected, but residential
roads aren't. Idiot traffic designers seem to be going through another
round of islands near intersections, and making shorter left turn
lanes. Just a few years ago, they were building center lanes for left
turns from either directions that were generally clear of traffic, and
available to emergency vehicles.

What they need is good video cameras, and impound the vehicles that
don't pull over to allow emergency vehicles through intersections. I
was in Ocala, Florida a few days ago, and saw an ambulance have to wait
to make a left turn, because the opposing traffic just kept rolling past
the entrance to the hospital.

US Hwy. 441 runs N/S through North Central Florida, and quite a bit is
separated four lane roadway, yet I rarely drive it without hearing a
siren.


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