First rollers?

[Nige Danton]

To break the monotony of riding a trainer in the evenings I'm thinking
of getting a set of rollers. These will be my first rollers and I'm
thinking of these:

http://www.saris.com/p-335-aluminum-rollers-with-resistance.aspx

They have 3.5 inch diameter drums and a resistance unit.

Any comments from people who ride rollers? I'm limited to riding on
the road at weekends only and so during the week I try to ride a
trainer (Cyclops Fluid 2) but it can be pretty dull. Are these going
to be a good buy for someone who has never used them before?

Thanks for any input.

--
Nige Danton

[Jolly Polly]

Nige Danton wrote:
> To break the monotony of riding a trainer in the evenings I'm thinking
> of getting a set of rollers. These will be my first rollers and I'm
> thinking of these:
>
> http://www.saris.com/p-335-aluminum-rollers-with-resistance.aspx
>
> They have 3.5 inch diameter drums and a resistance unit.
>
> Any comments from people who ride rollers? I'm limited to riding on
> the road at weekends only and so during the week I try to ride a
> trainer (Cyclops Fluid 2) but it can be pretty dull. Are these going
> to be a good buy for someone who has never used them before?
>

If you buy this type of roller there is a danger of riding off the side.
So I would recommend a fork attachment, in order to clamp the front
forks firmly.

[Nige Danton]

On Mar 12, 3:45*pm, Jolly Polly > wrote:

> If you buy this type of roller there is a danger of riding off the side.
> So I would recommend a fork attachment, in order to clamp the front
> forks firmly.

Would that not defeat part of the purpose of rollers? Anyway, if I do
come off the rollers it's not as though I will be going anywhere - the
bike will just fall over if I don't have a handy door frame to grab,
no?

--
Nige Danton

[Roger Thorpe]

Nige Danton wrote:
> On Mar 12, 3:45 pm, Jolly Polly > wrote:
>
>> If you buy this type of roller there is a danger of riding off the side.
>> So I would recommend a fork attachment, in order to clamp the front
>> forks firmly.
>
> Would that not defeat part of the purpose of rollers? Anyway, if I do
> come off the rollers it's not as though I will be going anywhere - the
> bike will just fall over if I don't have a handy door frame to grab,
> no?
>
> --
> Nige Danton
In practice the risk of riding off the rollers is small and the
consequences slight. I found that this type of rollers encourages a very
smooth and fluid style. You might find that you generate a high static
charge though.
Although using them requires some concentration, in the end you have to
cope with the boredom or alleviate it with some sort of entertainment. I
only kept mine for about a year, but then fortunately I was able to get
out quite a lot and so didn't really see the need.
Roger Thorpe

[Peter Grange]

On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 01:55:37 -0700 (PDT), Nige Danton
> wrote:

>On Mar 12, 3:45*pm, Jolly Polly > wrote:
>
>> If you buy this type of roller there is a danger of riding off the side.
>> So I would recommend a fork attachment, in order to clamp the front
>> forks firmly.
>
>Would that not defeat part of the purpose of rollers? Anyway, if I do
>come off the rollers it's not as though I will be going anywhere - the
>bike will just fall over if I don't have a handy door frame to grab,
>no?

If the back wheel's revolving when you come off the rollers, as soon
as it hits the ground you're going to head off smartly forwards I
would have thought. If you're doing it in the lounge (1) I'm not sure
what the tyre would do to the carpet.
(1) A few years ago I had a Tracx (sp?) trainer with a fan driven by
the rear roller, to simulate higher wind resistance as you go faster.
It made a noise like a banshee which precluded its use in the house
with any other (well, one in particular) occupant. Use in the garage
whipped up all the dust from the garage floor to where I could taste
it. Not a successfull purchase I thought.

[Paul - xxx[_2_]]

Nige Danton wrote:

> To break the monotony of riding a trainer in the evenings I'm thinking
> of getting a set of rollers. These will be my first rollers and I'm
> thinking of these:
>
> http://www.saris.com/p-335-aluminum-rollers-with-resistance.aspx
>
> They have 3.5 inch diameter drums and a resistance unit.
>
> Any comments from people who ride rollers? I'm limited to riding on
> the road at weekends only and so during the week I try to ride a
> trainer (Cyclops Fluid 2) but it can be pretty dull. Are these going
> to be a good buy for someone who has never used them before?

Roller riding requires a lot of concentration, until you get the knack
of it. Fortunately the consquences of dropping off the side are pretty
minimal, but similarly to trainers, they can be monumentally dull to
ride at home. I used to take them into the garden where there was at
least fresh air ... ;)

I much preferred them to a trainer, but that was probably 'cos the
trainer (when I used them, many years ago) I could afford were pretty
basic.

Rollers allow a certain (albeit limited) amount of movement on the bike
that better simulates actual riding and the feel is much less
artificial than a trainer.

IMHO ... ;)

--
Paul - xxx

'96/'97 Landrover Discovery 300 Tdi
Dyna Tech Cro-Mo comp

[Nige Danton]

On Mar 12, 4:34*pm, Peter Grange > wrote:

> If the back wheel's revolving when you come off the rollers, as soon
> as it hits the ground you're going to head off smartly forwards I

If I come off the rollers although the wheels will be spinning I won't
have any momentum and so will just fall over.

> would have thought. If you're doing it in the lounge (1) I'm not sure
> what the tyre would do to the carpet.

Good point about the carpet though, I'll be riding on ceramic tiled
floors so that will be ok.

> (1) A few years ago I had a *Tracx (sp?) trainer with a fan driven by
> the rear roller, to simulate higher wind resistance as you go faster.
> It made a noise like a banshee which precluded its use in the house
> with any other (well, one in particular) occupant.

I've got the Cyclops Fluid 2 and it's really quiet. I have to turn the
sound up on the TV, but it's fine. There's no problem elsewhere in the
house.

--
Nige Danton

[Peter Grange]

On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 03:13:07 -0700 (PDT), Nige Danton
> wrote:

>On Mar 12, 4:34*pm, Peter Grange > wrote:
>
>> If the back wheel's revolving when you come off the rollers, as soon
>> as it hits the ground you're going to head off smartly forwards I
>
>If I come off the rollers although the wheels will be spinning I won't
>have any momentum and so will just fall over.
>
W-e-l-l I have no personal experience (others here will have I
suspect) but if you think there's no momentum involved try turning the
bike upside down, crank the back wheel up to speed, then put your hand
on the tyre to stop it. Be sure to wear a helmet though in case you
hurt your hand :-)

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 10:39:19 +0000, Peter Grange
> wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 03:13:07 -0700 (PDT), Nige Danton
> wrote:
>
>>On Mar 12, 4:34*pm, Peter Grange > wrote:
>>
>>> If the back wheel's revolving when you come off the rollers, as soon
>>> as it hits the ground you're going to head off smartly forwards I
>>
>>If I come off the rollers although the wheels will be spinning I won't
>>have any momentum and so will just fall over.
>>
>W-e-l-l I have no personal experience (others here will have I
>suspect) but if you think there's no momentum involved try turning the
>bike upside down, crank the back wheel up to speed, then put your hand
>on the tyre to stop it. Be sure to wear a helmet though in case you
>hurt your hand :-)

There is momentum, but it is so littel the bike does not move forward
more than a tiny bit if you come off the rollers, as long as you stop
pedalling.

[Peter Grange]

On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 11:03:34 GMT, John Forrest Tomlinson
> wrote:

>There is momentum, but it is so littel the bike does not move forward
>more than a tiny bit if you come off the rollers, as long as you stop
>pedalling.

OK Thanks. Like I said, I've never tried it personally.

[Roger Thorpe[_6_]]

Peter Grange wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 11:03:34 GMT, John Forrest Tomlinson
> > wrote:
>
>> There is momentum, but it is so little the bike does not move forward
>> more than a tiny bit if you come off the rollers, as long as you stop
>> pedalling.
>
> OK Thanks. Like I said, I've never tried it personally.

Theory helps here too. The worst case would be if all the kinetic energy
in the wheels (assuming all their mass is at the rims) then the ratio of
the wheel's speed to your final velocity down the hall will be the
square root of the ratio your mass to that of the wheels.
If you and the bike are 80kg the wheels are 2kg and you're going at
30mph on the rollers then it's going to be brisk walking pace for your
helper to catch up with you.
In reality half of the energy will be wasted by friction between the
tiles and tyres, leaving an annoying little mark on the hall floor that
you will moving away from at 3.4 mph

To be honest that's a bit more than I had expected. Did I go wrong
somewhere?
Roger Thorpe

[Jolly Polly]

>>
>> OK Thanks. Like I said, I've never tried it personally.
>
> Theory helps here too. The worst case would be if all the kinetic energy
> in the wheels (assuming all their mass is at the rims) then the ratio of
> the wheel's speed to your final velocity down the hall will be the
> square root of the ratio your mass to that of the wheels.
> If you and the bike are 80kg the wheels are 2kg and you're going at
> 30mph on the rollers then it's going to be brisk walking pace for your
> helper to catch up with you.
> In reality half of the energy will be wasted by friction between the
> tiles and tyres, leaving an annoying little mark on the hall floor that
> you will moving away from at 3.4 mph
>
> To be honest that's a bit more than I had expected. Did I go wrong
> somewhere?

Watch this 2 minute video and you'll appreciate why I recommended the
fork stand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7UFwHWSnGM


they are quite expensive for what they are though
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B0007M4I8G/

[Roger Thorpe[_6_]]

Jolly Polly wrote:

> Watch this 2 minute video and you'll appreciate why I recommended the
> fork stand
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7UFwHWSnGM
>
But after a while you can do this!
........or at least think it possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiCdm5FsJpg&feature=related

Roger Thorpe

[Tom Sherman[_2_]]

Peter Grange wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 03:13:07 -0700 (PDT), Nige Danton
> > wrote:
>
>> On Mar 12, 4:34 pm, Peter Grange > wrote:
>>
>>> If the back wheel's revolving when you come off the rollers, as soon
>>> as it hits the ground you're going to head off smartly forwards I
>> If I come off the rollers although the wheels will be spinning I won't
>> have any momentum and so will just fall over.
>>
> W-e-l-l I have no personal experience (others here will have I
> suspect) but if you think there's no momentum involved try turning the
> bike upside down, crank the back wheel up to speed, then put your hand
> on the tyre to stop it. Be sure to wear a helmet though in case you
> hurt your hand :-)

Would not a helmet prevent 85% of all hand injuries in this situation?
Or was that 69% of all hand injuries? ;)

Seriously, a heavy cow hide or pig skin glove should be used if one
tries this.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

[Jolly Polly]

Roger Thorpe wrote:
> Jolly Polly wrote:
>
>> Watch this 2 minute video and you'll appreciate why I recommended the
>> fork stand
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7UFwHWSnGM
>>
> But after a while you can do this!
> .......or at least think it possible.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiCdm5FsJpg&feature=related
>

True enough Roger, after some practice /or a lot for some of us/

This is a good idea, 'free motion rollers'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS2yvBo8EMQ

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 11:59:16 +0000, Jolly Polly >
wrote:

>
>Watch this 2 minute video and you'll appreciate why I recommended the
>fork stand
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7UFwHWSnGM

That video is why people should learn to ride rollers -- for the
skill.

[Roger Thorpe[_6_]]

Jolly lolly wrote:
> Roger Thorpe wrote:
>> Jolly Polly wrote:
>>
>>> Watch this 2 minute video and you'll appreciate why I recommended the
>>> fork stand
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7UFwHWSnGM
>>>
>> But after a while you can do this!
>> .......or at least think it possible.
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiCdm5FsJpg&feature=related
>>
>
> True enough Roger, after some practice /or a lot for some of us/
>
> This is a good idea, 'free motion rollers'
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS2yvBo8EMQ
>

Fascinating. He's gone to a lot of trouble there.
To be honest, if someone has suggested those side-wheels to keep you on
then I would have said that they'd be guaranteed to knock you off.
Clearly I would have been wrong.

lots of roller related fun there on you tube. What a mad, diverse world
it is!
Roger Thorpe

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 12:22:17 +0000, Jolly Polly >
wrote:

>This is a good idea, 'free motion rollers'
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS2yvBo8EMQ


Whoa --clever and interesting set-up and video. Many nice details on
those rollers.

[--D-y]

On Mar 12, 6:59*am, Jolly Polly > wrote:

> Watch this 2 minute video and you'll appreciate why I recommended the
> fork standhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7UFwHWSnGM

Video entitled "How to do everything (almost) wrong".

I used a kitchen "hallway", where there was a narrow entrance to the
kitchen, with countertop on one side, wall on the other.
In moments of distress, bounce off the wall and/or put a hand on the
counter. Bottles, etc. on the counter. TV available.

Yeah, like Video Dufus there figured out, hands on the tops to start.
Big chainring, near middle cog, object being to quickly get the wheels
spinning fast, which helps with balance. That's the first trick. Then
you can go on to changing hand positions, changing gears, riding no
hands, taking off/putting on shirts/jersies, juggling, whatever.

Resistance units are fine; I used big gears (58t ring) back in the
day. Also used a metronome for "fun with cadences" activities.

IMHO, rollers are less for "power" (stationary trainer there), more
for finesse. Again IMHO, roller riding is one of those cycling things
that any/every rider should develop their potential at in order to
increase skill level, including learning to pedal hard with a relaxed
upper body, and being able to pedal in a straight line. While
juggling, if necessary <g>.

I don't know anything about the rollers you're looking at. The
standard are Kreitler, with aluminum end caps-- and I'd get the 4.5"
size, in interest of being a little easier on the tires. Note Krietler
offers a resistance unit that also gives a cooling breeze.

<drums.http://www.kreitler.com/product.php?
section=product&item=rollers_4_5>

Expensive new, but they can be found slightly used much cheaper. --D-y

[Rob Morley]

On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 12:22:17 +0000
Jolly Polly > wrote:

> Roger Thorpe wrote:
> > Jolly Polly wrote:
> >
> >> Watch this 2 minute video and you'll appreciate why I recommended
> >> the fork stand
> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7UFwHWSnGM
> >>
> > But after a while you can do this!
> > .......or at least think it possible.
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiCdm5FsJpg&feature=related
> >
>
> True enough Roger, after some practice /or a lot for some of us/
>
> This is a good idea, 'free motion rollers'
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS2yvBo8EMQ
>
Probably based on this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaYDZ-RSOTA&NR=1

[Rob Morley]

On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 08:45:06 +0000
Jolly Polly > wrote:

> Nige Danton wrote:
> > To break the monotony of riding a trainer in the evenings I'm
> > thinking of getting a set of rollers. These will be my first
> > rollers and I'm thinking of these:
> >
> > http://www.saris.com/p-335-aluminum-rollers-with-resistance.aspx
> >
> > They have 3.5 inch diameter drums and a resistance unit.
> >
> > Any comments from people who ride rollers? I'm limited to riding on
> > the road at weekends only and so during the week I try to ride a
> > trainer (Cyclops Fluid 2) but it can be pretty dull. Are these going
> > to be a good buy for someone who has never used them before?
> >
>
> If you buy this type of roller there is a danger of riding off the
> side. So I would recommend a fork attachment, in order to clamp the
> front forks firmly.

Might as well use a turbo trainer if you do that. Just put the rollers
near a wall when you start, so you can rest your shoulder or elbow
against it for starting/stopping/falling off. And don't slam the
brakes on.

[David Damerell]

Quoting Peter Grange >:
> wrote:
>>Would that not defeat part of the purpose of rollers? Anyway, if I do
>>come off the rollers it's not as though I will be going anywhere - the
>>bike will just fall over if I don't have a handy door frame to grab,
>>no?
>If the back wheel's revolving when you come off the rollers, as soon
>as it hits the ground you're going to head off smartly forwards I
>would have thought.

That's silly; the wheel's kinetic energy is tiny when it's trying to move
the entire bike-rider system. You might get a bit of a jerk.
--
David Damerell > flcl?
Today is Saturday, March - a weekend.

[jwbinpdx]

On Mar 12, 5:40*am, --D-y > wrote:
> On Mar 12, 6:59*am, Jolly Polly > wrote:
>
> > Watch this 2 minute video and you'll appreciate why I recommended the
> > fork standhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7UFwHWSnGM
>
> Video entitled "How to do everything (almost) wrong".
>
> I used a kitchen "hallway", where there was a narrow entrance to the
> kitchen, with countertop on one side, wall on the other.
> In moments of distress, bounce off the wall and/or put a hand on the
> counter. Bottles, etc. on the counter. TV available.
>
> Yeah, like Video Dufus there figured out, hands on the tops to start.
> Big chainring, near middle cog, object being to quickly get the wheels
> spinning fast, which helps with balance. That's the first trick. Then
> you can go on to changing hand positions, changing gears, riding no
> hands, taking off/putting on shirts/jersies, juggling, whatever.
>
> Resistance units are fine; I used big gears (58t ring) back in the
> day. Also used a metronome for "fun with cadences" activities.
>
> IMHO, rollers are less for "power" (stationary trainer there), more
> for finesse. Again IMHO, roller riding is one of those cycling things
> that any/every rider should develop their potential at in order to
> increase skill level, including learning to pedal hard with a relaxed
> upper body, and being able to pedal in a straight line. While
> juggling, if necessary <g>.
>
> I don't know anything about the rollers you're looking at. The
> standard are Kreitler, with aluminum end caps-- and I'd get the 4.5"
> size, in interest of being a little easier on the tires. Note Krietler
> offers a resistance unit that also gives a cooling breeze.
>
> <drums.http://www.kreitler.com/product.php?
> section=product&item=rollers_4_5>
>
> Expensive new, but they can be found slightly used much cheaper. *--D-y

The OP probably has limited access to the Kreitler rollers in the UK
market, but they are the gold standard in the US. They roll so
freely, though, that a headwind unit is almost required --
particularly if you use a fixed gear on your rollers like I do (my
track bike is my roller bike). I don't like the feel of trainers
although they have their place for strength training and for rehab --
when you break an arm or a leg and want to at least simulate riding,
you can do it on a trainer.-- Jay Beattie.

[Marcus Coles]

I have the same rollers.
They have held up well over a few winters of use.


It still gets pretty boring, but not as bad as a trainer.
I point the rollers at the TV.


It took me about half and hour initially to get the hang of riding
rollers, setting them up in a door way for support is a good way to
start.


I made a step/bridge for my rollers out of plywood and 2 x 4 lumber it
makes mounting/dismounting easier.


Unlike a trainer tire wear and stress on the frame are negligible, so I
don't feel guilty about using different bikes. I sometime use them for
checking the basic bike set-up.


If you come off you just the rollers you don't go shooting off, you fall
over sideways. Don't land on an expensive coffee table :-(


Rollers used with a fork stand are IMHO not rollers, just frame
stressing, spinning devices.


Marcus

[Clive George]

"Roger Thorpe" > wrote in message
...

> In reality half of the energy will be wasted by friction between the tiles
> and tyres, leaving an annoying little mark on the hall floor that you will
> moving away from at 3.4 mph
>
> To be honest that's a bit more than I had expected. Did I go wrong
> somewhere?

Energy goes as square of speed, so 3.4mph doesn't take much.

[--D-y]

On Mar 12, 9:30*am, jwbinpdx > wrote:
> On Mar 12, 5:40*am, --D-y > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 12, 6:59*am, Jolly Polly > wrote:
>
> > > Watch this 2 minute video and you'll appreciate why I recommended the
> > > fork standhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7UFwHWSnGM
>
> > Video entitled "How to do everything (almost) wrong".
>
> > I used a kitchen "hallway", where there was a narrow entrance to the
> > kitchen, with countertop on one side, wall on the other.
> > In moments of distress, bounce off the wall and/or put a hand on the
> > counter. Bottles, etc. on the counter. TV available.
>
> > Yeah, like Video Dufus there figured out, hands on the tops to start.
> > Big chainring, near middle cog, object being to quickly get the wheels
> > spinning fast, which helps with balance. That's the first trick. Then
> > you can go on to changing hand positions, changing gears, riding no
> > hands, taking off/putting on shirts/jersies, juggling, whatever.
>
> > Resistance units are fine; I used big gears (58t ring) back in the
> > day. Also used a metronome for "fun with cadences" activities.
>
> > IMHO, rollers are less for "power" (stationary trainer there), more
> > for finesse. Again IMHO, roller riding is one of those cycling things
> > that any/every rider should develop their potential at in order to
> > increase skill level, including learning to pedal hard with a relaxed
> > upper body, and being able to pedal in a straight line. While
> > juggling, if necessary <g>.
>
> > I don't know anything about the rollers you're looking at. The
> > standard are Kreitler, with aluminum end caps-- and I'd get the 4.5"
> > size, in interest of being a little easier on the tires. Note Krietler
> > offers a resistance unit that also gives a cooling breeze.
>
> > <drums.http://www.kreitler.com/product.php?
> > section=product&item=rollers_4_5>
>
> > Expensive new, but they can be found slightly used much cheaper. *--D-y
>
> The OP probably has limited access to the Kreitler rollers in the UK
> market, but they are the gold standard in the US. *They roll so
> freely, though, that a headwind unit is almost required --
> particularly if you use a fixed gear on your rollers like I do (my
> track bike is my roller bike). * I don't like the feel of trainers
> although they have their place for strength training and for rehab --
> when you break an arm or a leg and want to at least simulate riding,
> you can do it on a trainer.-- Jay Beattie.

Thanks. I looked:

<http://www.kreitler.co.uk/>

How about that?

My rollers were the old Weyless, with the rigid T-beam sides. Yup,
they rolled pretty easy; haven't ridden Kreitlers but I imagine the
bearings used in both are some kind of standard off the shelf item, so
resistance would be close to the same. Hence the big gear, which at
130-132", really wasn't much bigger than a modern 53x11. Roughly the
same as 54x11 which is used sometimes on the road and is available if
not "standard".

How much of a blast of air does the Krietler unit give with the
various opening levels?
IOW, does it put out a good flow even at smaller openings, where it's
already adding (example from chart linked to below) 178w at 26 going-
nowhere mph, at 1/4 opening?

<http://www.kreitler.co.uk/wattage_chart.pdf>

--D-y

--D-y

[Roger Thorpe[_6_]]

Clive George wrote:
> "Roger Thorpe" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> In reality half of the energy will be wasted by friction between the tiles
>> and tyres, leaving an annoying little mark on the hall floor that you will
>> moving away from at 3.4 mph
>>
>> To be honest that's a bit more than I had expected. Did I go wrong
>> somewhere?
>
> Energy goes as square of speed, so 3.4mph doesn't take much.
>
>

I did go wrong.
m1=mass of rims+tyres
m2=mass of bike and cyclist
V1, V2 velocities you get the idea.
Kinetic energy of the rims at 30mph = final kinetic energy of bike and
rider + energy lost by friction at the wheels.
1/2 m1 * v1^2 = 1/2 m2 * v2^2 + F*D

Where F= the accelerating force from the wheels
D= distance travelled by the tyre during the skid
assume acceleration time is t
F= m2 * a = m2 * v2/t
D =1/2 (v1 + v2) * t
which comes out to

m1 *v1^2 = m2*v2^2 + m2*(v1+v2)*v2

Or .. Final velocity is 0.73mph

Now I've got that out of my head I can get back to work - call this a
coffee break?

Roger

[Jolly Polly]

Roger Thorpe wrote:
> Clive George wrote:
>> "Roger Thorpe" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> In reality half of the energy will be wasted by friction between the
>>> tiles and tyres, leaving an annoying little mark on the hall floor
>>> that you will moving away from at 3.4 mph
>>>
>>> To be honest that's a bit more than I had expected. Did I go wrong
>>> somewhere?
>>
>> Energy goes as square of speed, so 3.4mph doesn't take much.
>>
>>
>
> I did go wrong.
> m1=mass of rims+tyres
> m2=mass of bike and cyclist
> V1, V2 velocities you get the idea.
> Kinetic energy of the rims at 30mph = final kinetic energy of bike and
> rider + energy lost by friction at the wheels.
> 1/2 m1 * v1^2 = 1/2 m2 * v2^2 + F*D
>
> Where F= the accelerating force from the wheels
> D= distance travelled by the tyre during the skid
> assume acceleration time is t
> F= m2 * a = m2 * v2/t
> D =1/2 (v1 + v2) * t
> which comes out to
>
> m1 *v1^2 = m2*v2^2 + m2*(v1+v2)*v2
>
> Or .. Final velocity is 0.73mph
>
> Now I've got that out of my head I can get back to work - call this a
> coffee break?
>

that's what /you/ do during a coffee break? I'm impressed

I go about 3" to 6" when I slip off rollers - it's the surprise when it
first happens that throws you (your mind) which causes you to fall over,
after a couple of times it ceases to be a problem. You do learn not to
do it, eventually

[Carl Sundquist]

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 11:59:16 +0000, Jolly Polly >
> wrote:
>
>> Watch this 2 minute video and you'll appreciate why I recommended the
>> fork stand
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7UFwHWSnGM
>
> That video is why people should learn to ride rollers -- for the
> skill.


But wearing a helmet? That's like the video of the guy wearing shoe
covers while riding rollers.

[John Thompson]

["Followup-To:" header set to rec.bicycles.tech.]
On 2009-03-12, Peter Grange > wrote:

> If the back wheel's revolving when you come off the rollers, as soon
> as it hits the ground you're going to head off smartly forwards I
> would have thought.

No. Unless you have a cast-iron wheel, there's not going to be a whole
lot of momentum in the wheel.

> I'm not sure what the tyre would do to the carpet.

It could leave a skid mark.

--

John )

[jwbinpdx]

On Mar 12, 8:26*am, --D-y > wrote:
> On Mar 12, 9:30*am, jwbinpdx > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 12, 5:40*am, --D-y > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 12, 6:59*am, Jolly Polly > wrote:
>
> > > > Watch this 2 minute video and you'll appreciate why I recommended the
> > > > fork standhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7UFwHWSnGM
>
> > > Video entitled "How to do everything (almost) wrong".
>
> > > I used a kitchen "hallway", where there was a narrow entrance to the
> > > kitchen, with countertop on one side, wall on the other.
> > > In moments of distress, bounce off the wall and/or put a hand on the
> > > counter. Bottles, etc. on the counter. TV available.
>
> > > Yeah, like Video Dufus there figured out, hands on the tops to start.
> > > Big chainring, near middle cog, object being to quickly get the wheels
> > > spinning fast, which helps with balance. That's the first trick. Then
> > > you can go on to changing hand positions, changing gears, riding no
> > > hands, taking off/putting on shirts/jersies, juggling, whatever.
>
> > > Resistance units are fine; I used big gears (58t ring) back in the
> > > day. Also used a metronome for "fun with cadences" activities.
>
> > > IMHO, rollers are less for "power" (stationary trainer there), more
> > > for finesse. Again IMHO, roller riding is one of those cycling things
> > > that any/every rider should develop their potential at in order to
> > > increase skill level, including learning to pedal hard with a relaxed
> > > upper body, and being able to pedal in a straight line. While
> > > juggling, if necessary <g>.
>
> > > I don't know anything about the rollers you're looking at. The
> > > standard are Kreitler, with aluminum end caps-- and I'd get the 4.5"
> > > size, in interest of being a little easier on the tires. Note Krietler
> > > offers a resistance unit that also gives a cooling breeze.
>
> > > <drums.http://www.kreitler.com/product.php?
> > > section=product&item=rollers_4_5>
>
> > > Expensive new, but they can be found slightly used much cheaper. *--D-y
>
> > The OP probably has limited access to the Kreitler rollers in the UK
> > market, but they are the gold standard in the US. *They roll so
> > freely, though, that a headwind unit is almost required --
> > particularly if you use a fixed gear on your rollers like I do (my
> > track bike is my roller bike). * I don't like the feel of trainers
> > although they have their place for strength training and for rehab --
> > when you break an arm or a leg and want to at least simulate riding,
> > you can do it on a trainer.-- Jay Beattie.
>
> Thanks. I looked:
>
> <http://www.kreitler.co.uk/>
>
> How about that?
>
> My rollers were the old Weyless, with the rigid T-beam sides. Yup,
> they rolled pretty easy; haven't ridden Kreitlers but I imagine the
> bearings used in both are some kind of standard off the shelf item, so
> resistance would be close to the same. Hence the big gear, which at
> 130-132", really wasn't much bigger than a modern 53x11. Roughly the
> same as 54x11 which is used sometimes on the road and is available if
> not "standard".
>
> How much of a blast of air does the Krietler unit give with the
> various opening levels?
> IOW, does it put out a good flow even at smaller openings, where it's
> already adding (example from chart linked to below) 178w at 26 going-
> nowhere mph, at 1/4 opening?
>
I don't know. I rode a set with no fan, and I spun out. My own
rollers have a fan unit, and I like the progressive resistance -- but
I don't get the benefit of being blown on. There has to be someone on
the wreck bike NG who has the killer headwind unit. -- Jay Beattie.

[Nige Danton]

On Mar 12, 9:30*pm, jwbinpdx > wrote:
> On Mar 12, 5:40*am, --D-y > wrote:
>
> > I don't know anything about the rollers you're looking at. The
> > standard are Kreitler, with aluminum end caps-- and I'd get the 4.5"
> > size, in interest of being a little easier on the tires. Note Krietler
> > offers a resistance unit that also gives a cooling breeze.
>
> The OP probably has limited access to the Kreitler rollers in the UK
> market, but they are the gold standard in the US. *They roll so
> freely, though, that a headwind unit is almost required --

After reading these replies - and very informative they are and the
youtube links - I've decided to try and source a set of the alloy 4.5
inch Kreitler rollers with the headwind unit. I actually live in
Vietnam where (many things are hard to find) but I will be in
Singapore next week and so have emailed a favourite bike shop there
and asked if they can get them for me. I'll report back with progress.

--
Nige Danton

[Phil Cook]

Peter Grange wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 03:13:07 -0700 (PDT), Nige Danton
> wrote:
>
>>On Mar 12, 4:34*pm, Peter Grange > wrote:
>>
>>> If the back wheel's revolving when you come off the rollers, as soon
>>> as it hits the ground you're going to head off smartly forwards I
>>
>>If I come off the rollers although the wheels will be spinning I won't
>>have any momentum and so will just fall over.
>>
>W-e-l-l I have no personal experience (others here will have I
>suspect) but if you think there's no momentum involved try turning the
>bike upside down, crank the back wheel up to speed, then put your hand
>on the tyre to stop it. Be sure to wear a helmet though in case you
>hurt your hand :-)

The momentum of the wheel won't be enough to accelerate you into
forward motion.

I have personal experience of riding off the side of rollers. we used
to do sessions at a mate's house and set them up in the kitchen. We
used a big heavy fixed wheel machine and I was in mid session when my
mate came into the kitchen to put the kettle on, as he went out he
turned off the lights (force of habit) and I was left riding in the
dark. Despite my shout of LIGHTS he didn't get them switched back on
in time and I rode off the edge. The bike and I stopped on the spot,
though the back wheel did leave a nice skid mark on the tiles, and I
put my hand out to hold onto the worktop. This was back in the day of
toeclips and straps so there was no swift escape from the pedals.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

[Peter Grange]

On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 22:40:40 -0700 (PDT), Nige Danton
> wrote:

>inch Kreitler rollers with the headwind unit. I actually live in
>Vietnam where (many things are hard to find) but I will be in

Which part? Just got back from a holiday in Cambodia and Vietnam.
There are people here who think crossing the road in London is a
nervous experience. Pales into significance compared to Saigon (a city
of 8 million people and 4 million motorcycles, as the guide described
it) or Hanoi.

[Daniel Barlow]

Carl Sundquist > writes:

> But wearing a helmet? That's like the video of the guy wearing shoe
> covers while riding rollers.

Sideways fall with no forward motion and no other vehicle involved?
Given the current construction standards of bike helmets, that's
pretty much the only scenario it *does* make sense to wear one.

And of course, it'll protect you from banging your knee on the floor
as well.


-dan

[Nige Danton]

On Mar 13, 4:17*pm, Peter Grange > wrote:

> Which part? Just got back from a holiday in Cambodia and Vietnam.
> There are people here who think crossing the road in London is a
> nervous experience. Pales into significance compared to Saigon (a city
> of 8 million people and 4 million motorcycles, as the guide described
> it) or Hanoi.

I live in Saigon. At the weekends I ride the Hanoi/Vung Tau road from
home in district 2. The traffic sure is sporting. I can handle the
"millions" of motorbikes, but it's the trucks and buses that are a
little alarming sometimes.

Still, I have a pair of anti-peril shades now. You know the ones, the
lenses go completely opaque at the first hint of danger and so allows
me to adopt a flippant pose...

Incidentally, if you are coming out this way again I have a spare
bike. We could have a spin around the block.

--
Nige Danton

[Roger Thorpe[_6_]]

--D-y wrote:
> My rollers were the old Weyless, with the rigid T-beam sides. Yup,
> they rolled pretty easy; haven't ridden Kreitlers but I imagine the
> bearings used in both are some kind of standard off the shelf item, so
> resistance would be close to the same. Hence the big gear, which at
> 130-132", really wasn't much bigger than a modern 53x11. Roughly the
> same as 54x11 which is used sometimes on the road and is available if
> not "standard".
>
> How much of a blast of air does the Krietler unit give with the
> various opening levels?
> IOW, does it put out a good flow even at smaller openings, where it's
> already adding (example from chart linked to below) 178w at 26 going-
> nowhere mph, at 1/4 opening?
>
> <http://www.kreitler.co.uk/wattage_chart.pdf>
>
> --D-y
>
> --D-y
Making some heroic assumptions, such as a 50% efficiency and airflow
through a square cross section of side 2m then:
wndspeed(mph)= 1.2*cube root of power(watts)
or about 6mph.

Errors & Omissions Expected
Roger Thorpe

[[email protected]]

On Mar 12, 10:26*am, --D-y > wrote:
> On Mar 12, 9:30*am, jwbinpdx > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 12, 5:40*am, --D-y > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 12, 6:59*am, Jolly Polly > wrote:
>
> > > > Watch this 2 minute video and you'll appreciate why I recommended the
> > > > fork standhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7UFwHWSnGM
>
> > > Video entitled "How to do everything (almost) wrong".
>
> > > I used a kitchen "hallway", where there was a narrow entrance to the
> > > kitchen, with countertop on one side, wall on the other.
> > > In moments of distress, bounce off the wall and/or put a hand on the
> > > counter. Bottles, etc. on the counter. TV available.
>
> > > Yeah, like Video Dufus there figured out, hands on the tops to start.
> > > Big chainring, near middle cog, object being to quickly get the wheels
> > > spinning fast, which helps with balance. That's the first trick. Then
> > > you can go on to changing hand positions, changing gears, riding no
> > > hands, taking off/putting on shirts/jersies, juggling, whatever.
>
> > > Resistance units are fine; I used big gears (58t ring) back in the
> > > day. Also used a metronome for "fun with cadences" activities.
>
> > > IMHO, rollers are less for "power" (stationary trainer there), more
> > > for finesse. Again IMHO, roller riding is one of those cycling things
> > > that any/every rider should develop their potential at in order to
> > > increase skill level, including learning to pedal hard with a relaxed
> > > upper body, and being able to pedal in a straight line. While
> > > juggling, if necessary <g>.
>
> > > I don't know anything about the rollers you're looking at. The
> > > standard are Kreitler, with aluminum end caps-- and I'd get the 4.5"
> > > size, in interest of being a little easier on the tires. Note Krietler
> > > offers a resistance unit that also gives a cooling breeze.
>
> > > <drums.http://www.kreitler.com/product.php?
> > > section=product&item=rollers_4_5>
>
> > > Expensive new, but they can be found slightly used much cheaper. *--D-y
>
> > The OP probably has limited access to the Kreitler rollers in the UK
> > market, but they are the gold standard in the US. *They roll so
> > freely, though, that a headwind unit is almost required --
> > particularly if you use a fixed gear on your rollers like I do (my
> > track bike is my roller bike). * I don't like the feel of trainers
> > although they have their place for strength training and for rehab --
> > when you break an arm or a leg and want to at least simulate riding,
> > you can do it on a trainer.-- Jay Beattie.
>
> Thanks. I looked:
>
> <http://www.kreitler.co.uk/>
>
> How about that?
>
> My rollers were the old Weyless, with the rigid T-beam sides. Yup,
> they rolled pretty easy; haven't ridden Kreitlers but I imagine the
> bearings used in both are some kind of standard off the shelf item, so
> resistance would be close to the same. Hence the big gear, which at
> 130-132", really wasn't much bigger than a modern 53x11. Roughly the
> same as 54x11 which is used sometimes on the road and is available if
> not "standard".
>
> How much of a blast of air does the Krietler unit give with the
> various opening levels?
> IOW, does it put out a good flow even at smaller openings, where it's
> already adding (example from chart linked to below) 178w at 26 going-
> nowhere mph, at 1/4 opening?

The Kreitler Headwind unit set to wide open provides quite a bit of
wind on you. And resistance. Don't know about a lesser opening since
I've never used it with a lesser opening. I just took the pivoting
cover completely off my Headwind unit so its always wide open.

For the person who started the thread, if youget the 4.5" Kreitler
Alloy or Challenge rollers, you have to get the Headwind unit.
Without the Headwind unit the 4.5" rollers do not provide much
resistance. For cost you are better off getting the rollers with the
smallest diameter barrels. No need for the Headwind unit since they
provide enough resistance by themselves. And they are much lighter
than the 4.5" rollers.


>
> <http://www.kreitler.co.uk/wattage_chart.pdf>
>
> --D-y
>
> --D-y- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[N8N]

On Mar 12, 5:34*am, Peter Grange > wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 01:55:37 -0700 (PDT), Nige Danton
>
> > wrote:
> >On Mar 12, 3:45*pm, Jolly Polly > wrote:
>
> >> If you buy this type of roller there is a danger of riding off the side.
> >> So I would recommend a fork attachment, in order to clamp the front
> >> forks firmly.
>
> >Would that not defeat part of the purpose of rollers? Anyway, if I do
> >come off the rollers it's not as though I will be going anywhere - the
> >bike will just fall over if I don't have a handy door frame to grab,
> >no?
>
> If the back wheel's revolving when you come off the rollers, as soon
> as it hits the ground you're going to head off smartly forwards I
> would have thought. If you're doing it in the lounge (1) I'm not sure
> what the tyre would do to the carpet.
> (1) A few years ago I had a *Tracx (sp?) trainer with a fan driven by
> the rear roller, to simulate higher wind resistance as you go faster.
> It made a noise like a banshee which precluded its use in the house
> with any other (well, one in particular) occupant. Use in the garage
> whipped up all the dust from the garage floor to where I could taste
> it. Not a successfull purchase I thought.

I would have thought the same about hitting the ground, but after
watching the Mythbusters "hit the ground running" episode it seems
more likely that you will "stall" and fall over than rocket off into
your expensive big screen.

nate

[Dan O]

On Mar 13, 11:33*am, "
> wrote:
> On Mar 12, 10:26*am, --D-y > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 12, 9:30*am, jwbinpdx > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 12, 5:40*am, --D-y > wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 12, 6:59*am, Jolly Polly > wrote:
>
> > > > > Watch this 2 minute video and you'll appreciate why I recommended the
> > > > > fork standhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7UFwHWSnGM
>
> > > > Video entitled "How to do everything (almost) wrong".
>
> > > > I used a kitchen "hallway", where there was a narrow entrance to the
> > > > kitchen, with countertop on one side, wall on the other.
> > > > In moments of distress, bounce off the wall and/or put a hand on the
> > > > counter. Bottles, etc. on the counter. TV available.
>
> > > > Yeah, like Video Dufus there figured out, hands on the tops to start.

[Dan O]

On Mar 13, 12:03*pm, N8N > wrote:
> On Mar 12, 5:34*am, Peter Grange > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 01:55:37 -0700 (PDT), Nige Danton
>
> > > wrote:
> > >On Mar 12, 3:45*pm, Jolly Polly > wrote:
>
> > >> If you buy this type of roller there is a danger of riding off the side.
> > >> So I would recommend a fork attachment, in order to clamp the front
> > >> forks firmly.
>
> > >Would that not defeat part of the purpose of rollers? Anyway, if I do
> > >come off the rollers it's not as though I will be going anywhere - the
> > >bike will just fall over if I don't have a handy door frame to grab,
> > >no?
>
> > If the back wheel's revolving when you come off the rollers, as soon
> > as it hits the ground you're going to head off smartly forwards I
> > would have thought. If you're doing it in the lounge (1) I'm not sure
> > what the tyre would do to the carpet.
> > (1) A few years ago I had a *Tracx (sp?) trainer with a fan driven by
> > the rear roller, to simulate higher wind resistance as you go faster.
> > It made a noise like a banshee which precluded its use in the house
> > with any other (well, one in particular) occupant. Use in the garage
> > whipped up all the dust from the garage floor to where I could taste
> > it. Not a successfull purchase I thought.
>
> I would have thought the same about hitting the ground, but after
> watching the Mythbusters "hit the ground running" episode it seems
> more likely that you will "stall" and fall over than rocket off into
> your expensive big screen.
>

You've been watching too many cartoons.

[Rob Morley]

On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 09:34:42 +0000
Peter Grange > wrote:

> (1) A few years ago I had a Tracx (sp?) trainer
Tacx
:-)

[[email protected]]

On Mar 13, 2:08*pm, Dan O > wrote:
> On Mar 13, 11:33*am, "
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > On Mar 12, 10:26*am, --D-y > wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 12, 9:30*am, jwbinpdx > wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 12, 5:40*am, --D-y > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Mar 12, 6:59*am, Jolly Polly > wrote:
>
> > > > > > Watch this 2 minute video and you'll appreciate why I recommended the
> > > > > > fork standhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7UFwHWSnGM
>
> > > > > Video entitled "How to do everything (almost) wrong".
>
> > > > > I used a kitchen "hallway", where there was a narrow entrance to the
> > > > > kitchen, with countertop on one side, wall on the other.
> > > > > In moments of distress, bounce off the wall and/or put a hand on the
> > > > > counter. Bottles, etc. on the counter. TV available.
>
> > > > > Yeah, like Video Dufus there figured out, hands on the tops to start.
> > > > > Big chainring, near middle cog, object being to quickly get the wheels
> > > > > spinning fast, which helps with balance. That's the first trick. Then
> > > > > you can go on to changing hand positions, changing gears, riding no
> > > > > hands, taking off/putting on shirts/jersies, juggling, whatever.
>
> > > > > Resistance units are fine; I used big gears (58t ring) back in the
> > > > > day. Also used a metronome for "fun with cadences" activities.
>
> > > > > IMHO, rollers are less for "power" (stationary trainer there), more
> > > > > for finesse. Again IMHO, roller riding is one of those cycling things
> > > > > that any/every rider should develop their potential at in order to
> > > > > increase skill level, including learning to pedal hard with a relaxed
> > > > > upper body, and being able to pedal in a straight line. While
> > > > > juggling, if necessary <g>.
>
> > > > > I don't know anything about the rollers you're looking at. The
> > > > > standard are Kreitler, with aluminum end caps-- and I'd get the 4..5"
> > > > > size, in interest of being a little easier on the tires. Note Krietler
> > > > > offers a resistance unit that also gives a cooling breeze.
>
> > > > > <drums.http://www.kreitler.com/product.php?
> > > > > section=product&item=rollers_4_5>
>
> > > > > Expensive new, but they can be found slightly used much cheaper. *--D-y
>
> > > > The OP probably has limited access to the Kreitler rollers in the UK
> > > > market, but they are the gold standard in the US. *They roll so
> > > > freely, though, that a headwind unit is almost required --
> > > > particularly if you use a fixed gear on your rollers like I do (my
> > > > track bike is my roller bike). * I don't like the feel of trainers
> > > > although they have their place for strength training and for rehab --
> > > > when you break an arm or a leg and want to at least simulate riding,
> > > > you can do it on a trainer.-- Jay Beattie.
>
> > > Thanks. I looked:
>
> > > <http://www.kreitler.co.uk/>
>
> > > How about that?
>
> > > My rollers were the old Weyless, with the rigid T-beam sides. Yup,
> > > they rolled pretty easy; haven't ridden Kreitlers but I imagine the
> > > bearings used in both are some kind of standard off the shelf item, so
> > > resistance would be close to the same. Hence the big gear, which at
> > > 130-132", really wasn't much bigger than a modern 53x11. Roughly the
> > > same as 54x11 which is used sometimes on the road and is available if
> > > not "standard".
>
> > > How much of a blast of air does the Krietler unit give with the
> > > various opening levels?
> > > IOW, does it put out a good flow even at smaller openings, where it's
> > > already adding (example from chart linked to below) 178w at 26 going-
> > > nowhere mph, at 1/4 opening?
>
> > The Kreitler Headwind unit set to wide open provides quite a bit of
> > wind on you. *And resistance. *Don't know about a lesser opening since
> > I've never used it with a lesser opening. *I just took the pivoting
> > cover completely off my Headwind unit so its always wide open.
>
> > For the person who started the thread, if youget the 4.5" Kreitler
> > Alloy or Challenge rollers, you have to get the Headwind unit.
> > Without the Headwind unit the 4.5" rollers do not provide much
> > resistance. *For cost you are better off getting the rollers with the
> > smallest diameter barrels. *No need for the Headwind unit since they
> > provide enough resistance by themselves. *And they are much lighter
> > than the 4.5" rollers.
>
> How does a headwind offer resistance if you're not moving anywhere?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Headwind Unit. I did say "Headwind unit" three times above. The
squirrel cage blower you hook to the front of the rollers with a
belt. So as you are riding the squirrel cage turns and causes
resistance.

http://www.kreitler.com/product.php?section=product&item=accessories

[Dan O]

On Mar 13, 1:16*pm, "
> wrote:
> On Mar 13, 2:08*pm, Dan O > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 13, 11:33*am, "
>
> > > wrote:
> > > On Mar 12, 10:26*am, --D-y > wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 12, 9:30*am, jwbinpdx > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Mar 12, 5:40*am, --D-y > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Mar 12, 6:59*am, Jolly Polly > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Watch this 2 minute video and you'll appreciate why I recommended the
> > > > > > > fork standhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7UFwHWSnGM
>
> > > > > > Video entitled "How to do everything (almost) wrong".
>
> > > > > > I used a kitchen "hallway", where there was a narrow entrance to the
> > > > > > kitchen, with countertop on one side, wall on the other.
> > > > > > In moments of distress, bounce off the wall and/or put a hand on the
> > > > > > counter. Bottles, etc. on the counter. TV available.
>
> > > > > > Yeah, like Video Dufus there figured out, hands on the tops to start.
> > > > > > Big chainring, near middle cog, object being to quickly get the wheels
> > > > > > spinning fast, which helps with balance. That's the first trick.. Then
> > > > > > you can go on to changing hand positions, changing gears, riding no
> > > > > > hands, taking off/putting on shirts/jersies, juggling, whatever..
>
> > > > > > Resistance units are fine; I used big gears (58t ring) back in the
> > > > > > day. Also used a metronome for "fun with cadences" activities.
>
> > > > > > IMHO, rollers are less for "power" (stationary trainer there), more
> > > > > > for finesse. Again IMHO, roller riding is one of those cycling things
> > > > > > that any/every rider should develop their potential at in order to
> > > > > > increase skill level, including learning to pedal hard with a relaxed
> > > > > > upper body, and being able to pedal in a straight line. While
> > > > > > juggling, if necessary <g>.
>
> > > > > > I don't know anything about the rollers you're looking at. The
> > > > > > standard are Kreitler, with aluminum end caps-- and I'd get the 4.5"
> > > > > > size, in interest of being a little easier on the tires. Note Krietler
> > > > > > offers a resistance unit that also gives a cooling breeze.
>
> > > > > > <drums.http://www.kreitler.com/product.php?
> > > > > > section=product&item=rollers_4_5>
>
> > > > > > Expensive new, but they can be found slightly used much cheaper.. *--D-y
>
> > > > > The OP probably has limited access to the Kreitler rollers in the UK
> > > > > market, but they are the gold standard in the US. *They roll so
> > > > > freely, though, that a headwind unit is almost required --
> > > > > particularly if you use a fixed gear on your rollers like I do (my
> > > > > track bike is my roller bike). * I don't like the feel of trainers
> > > > > although they have their place for strength training and for rehab --
> > > > > when you break an arm or a leg and want to at least simulate riding,
> > > > > you can do it on a trainer.-- Jay Beattie.
>
> > > > Thanks. I looked:
>
> > > > <http://www.kreitler.co.uk/>
>
> > > > How about that?
>
> > > > My rollers were the old Weyless, with the rigid T-beam sides. Yup,
> > > > they rolled pretty easy; haven't ridden Kreitlers but I imagine the
> > > > bearings used in both are some kind of standard off the shelf item, so
> > > > resistance would be close to the same. Hence the big gear, which at
> > > > 130-132", really wasn't much bigger than a modern 53x11. Roughly the
> > > > same as 54x11 which is used sometimes on the road and is available if
> > > > not "standard".
>
> > > > How much of a blast of air does the Krietler unit give with the
> > > > various opening levels?
> > > > IOW, does it put out a good flow even at smaller openings, where it's
> > > > already adding (example from chart linked to below) 178w at 26 going-
> > > > nowhere mph, at 1/4 opening?
>
> > > The Kreitler Headwind unit set to wide open provides quite a bit of
> > > wind on you. *And resistance. *Don't know about a lesser opening since
> > > I've never used it with a lesser opening. *I just took the pivoting
> > > cover completely off my Headwind unit so its always wide open.
>
> > > For the person who started the thread, if youget the 4.5" Kreitler
> > > Alloy or Challenge rollers, you have to get the Headwind unit.
> > > Without the Headwind unit the 4.5" rollers do not provide much
> > > resistance. *For cost you are better off getting the rollers with the
> > > smallest diameter barrels. *No need for the Headwind unit since they
> > > provide enough resistance by themselves. *And they are much lighter
> > > than the 4.5" rollers.
>
> > How does a headwind offer resistance if you're not moving anywhere?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Headwind Unit. *I did say "Headwind unit" three times above. *The
> squirrel cage blower you hook to the front of the rollers with a
> belt. *So as you are riding the squirrel cage turns and causes
> resistance.
>
> http://www.kreitler.com/product.php?section=product&item=accessories

Okay, sure - I get it now. (I just didn't know how it worked.) If
you have to ride in place, that looks like the way to go.

[Chris[_12_]]

On Mar 12, 7:48*am, Marcus Coles > wrote:
> I have the same rollers.
> They have held up well over a few winters of use.
>
> It still gets pretty boring, but not as bad as a trainer.
> I point the rollers at the TV.
>
> It took me about half and hour initially to get the hang of riding
> rollers, setting them up in a door way for support is a good way to
> start.
>
> I made a step/bridge for my rollers out of plywood and 2 x 4 lumber it
> makes mounting/dismounting easier.
>
> Unlike a trainer tire wear and stress on the frame are negligible, so I
> don't feel guilty about using different bikes. I sometime use them for
> checking the basic bike set-up.
>
> If you come off you just the rollers you don't go shooting off, you fall
> over sideways. *Don't land on an expensive coffee table :-(
>
> Rollers used with a fork stand are IMHO not rollers, just frame
> stressing, spinning devices.
>
> Marcus

Everything Marcus said is spot on. I would not use expensive tyres for
roller riding though. Rollers are better than trainer, but only by a
little, and a poor way to use $60 each tyres.

I learned to ride rollers on a fixed gear, which is it's own mixed
blessing/curse. You get up to speed fast, and learn to spin, but you
lack gears to get any real resistance unless you are pushing a big
gear. But learning how to pedal 170RPM has it's own rewards.

Chris

Chris

[Thomas[_2_]]

On Mar 11, 9:29*pm, Nige Danton > wrote:
> To break the monotony of riding a trainer in the evenings I'm thinking
> of getting a set of rollers. These will be my first rollers and I'm
> thinking of these:
>
> http://www.saris.com/p-335-aluminum-rollers-with-resistance.aspx
>
> They have 3.5 inch diameter drums and a resistance unit.
>
> Any comments from people who ride rollers? I'm limited to riding on
> the road at weekends only and so during the week I try to ride a
> trainer (Cyclops Fluid 2) but it can be pretty dull. Are these going
> to be a good buy for someone who has never used them before?
>
I have the same trainer and I ride on rollers also, although not
Saris. Graber, the parent company of Cyclops and Saris, is a good
company and quick to replace a failed part.

Both are an important part of my training. I live in San Diego so
weather is not much of an issue. Both allow training in a controlled
environment. I have several elaborate one-hour trainer workouts,
using the bike computer and HR monitor. On a rainly Saturday I've
been known to spend four or five hours in the garage, alternating
between trainer and rollers.

I don't find either to be boring. It's only boring when I just sit
and ride at a relaxed pace.

I find that I get more benefit from rollers when use a fixed gear. My
fixie has relatively low gearing so my speed on rollers is slow,
forcing me to concentrate more on balance.

I have ridden off the ends a few times over the years. I wasn't
hurt. As others have pointed out, you don't take off, you just stop
(even not riding my fixed gear).

One cavaet to intense training on rollers or trainers is that your
sweat (salt water) falls on the front of the bike, which isn't good.
Even carbon bikes have metal parts. There are several method to avoid
corrosion. Mine is just to use old bikes and take a "let it rust"
attitude.

Speaking only from my own experience.

Tom

[AMuzi]

> Nige Danton wrote:
>> To break the monotony of riding a trainer in the evenings I'm thinking
>> of getting a set of rollers. These will be my first rollers and I'm
>> thinking of these:
>> http://www.saris.com/p-335-aluminum-rollers-with-resistance.aspx
>> They have 3.5 inch diameter drums and a resistance unit.
>> Any comments from people who ride rollers? I'm limited to riding on
>> the road at weekends only and so during the week I try to ride a
>> trainer (Cyclops Fluid 2) but it can be pretty dull. Are these going
>> to be a good buy for someone who has never used them before?

Jolly Polly wrote:
> If you buy this type of roller there is a danger of riding off the side.
> So I would recommend a fork attachment, in order to clamp the front
> forks firmly.

'danger' ?? Feature!

After learning to ride no hands, shift, stand, change
clothes etc, the natural progression is to then learn to
ride off at the end of one's routine. The bike stops dead
(as only rims/tires are moving) and needs a big anaerobic
effort to go across the room to a glide stop.



--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Peter Grange]

On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 03:08:27 -0700 (PDT), Nige Danton
> wrote:

>On Mar 13, 4:17*pm, Peter Grange > wrote:
>
>> Which part? Just got back from a holiday in Cambodia and Vietnam.
>> There are people here who think crossing the road in London is a
>> nervous experience. Pales into significance compared to Saigon (a city
>> of 8 million people and 4 million motorcycles, as the guide described
>> it) or Hanoi.
>
>I live in Saigon. At the weekends I ride the Hanoi/Vung Tau road from
>home in district 2. The traffic sure is sporting. I can handle the
>"millions" of motorbikes, but it's the trucks and buses that are a
>little alarming sometimes.
Yes, crossing the road at one of those pedestrian crossing thingies at
least the motorbikes weave round you but the trucks just keep on
coming.
>
>Still, I have a pair of anti-peril shades now. You know the ones, the
>lenses go completely opaque at the first hint of danger and so allows
>me to adopt a flippant pose...

Hey they sound good. Down ere in Dorset things aint so bad though.
>
>Incidentally, if you are coming out this way again I have a spare
>bike. We could have a spin around the block.

Thanks for the offer but I can't see us coming back. Not that we
didn't enjoy it but there are so many other places we want to see yet.

[AMuzi]

Roger Thorpe wrote:
> Clive George wrote:
>> "Roger Thorpe" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> In reality half of the energy will be wasted by friction between the
>>> tiles and tyres, leaving an annoying little mark on the hall floor
>>> that you will moving away from at 3.4 mph
>>>
>>> To be honest that's a bit more than I had expected. Did I go wrong
>>> somewhere?
>>
>> Energy goes as square of speed, so 3.4mph doesn't take much.
>>
>>
>
> I did go wrong.
> m1=mass of rims+tyres
> m2=mass of bike and cyclist
> V1, V2 velocities you get the idea.
> Kinetic energy of the rims at 30mph = final kinetic energy of bike and
> rider + energy lost by friction at the wheels.
> 1/2 m1 * v1^2 = 1/2 m2 * v2^2 + F*D
>
> Where F= the accelerating force from the wheels
> D= distance travelled by the tyre during the skid
> assume acceleration time is t
> F= m2 * a = m2 * v2/t
> D =1/2 (v1 + v2) * t
> which comes out to
>
> m1 *v1^2 = m2*v2^2 + m2*(v1+v2)*v2
>
> Or .. Final velocity is 0.73mph
>
> Now I've got that out of my head I can get back to work - call this a
> coffee break?

Which is corroborated by experience.
3.4mph was not realistic.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[AMuzi]

>>>>> Jolly Polly > wrote:
>>>>>> Watch this 2 minute video and you'll appreciate why I recommended the
>>>>>> fork standhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7UFwHWSnGM

>>>> --D-y > wrote:
>>>>> Video entitled "How to do everything (almost) wrong".
>>>>> I used a kitchen "hallway", where there was a narrow entrance to the
>>>>> kitchen, with countertop on one side, wall on the other.
>>>>> In moments of distress, bounce off the wall and/or put a hand on the
>>>>> counter. Bottles, etc. on the counter. TV available.
>>>>> Yeah, like Video Dufus there figured out, hands on the tops to start.
>>>>> Big chainring, near middle cog, object being to quickly get the wheels
>>>>> spinning fast, which helps with balance. That's the first trick. Then
>>>>> you can go on to changing hand positions, changing gears, riding no
>>>>> hands, taking off/putting on shirts/jersies, juggling, whatever.
>>>>> Resistance units are fine; I used big gears (58t ring) back in the
>>>>> day. Also used a metronome for "fun with cadences" activities.
>>>>> IMHO, rollers are less for "power" (stationary trainer there), more
>>>>> for finesse. Again IMHO, roller riding is one of those cycling things
>>>>> that any/every rider should develop their potential at in order to
>>>>> increase skill level, including learning to pedal hard with a relaxed
>>>>> upper body, and being able to pedal in a straight line. While
>>>>> juggling, if necessary <g>.
>>>>> I don't know anything about the rollers you're looking at. The
>>>>> standard are Kreitler, with aluminum end caps-- and I'd get the 4.5"
>>>>> size, in interest of being a little easier on the tires. Note Krietler
>>>>> offers a resistance unit that also gives a cooling breeze.
>>>>> <drums.http://www.kreitler.com/product.php?
>>>>> section=product&item=rollers_4_5>
>>>>> Expensive new, but they can be found slightly used much cheaper. --D-y

>>> jwbinpdx > wrote:
>>>> The OP probably has limited access to the Kreitler rollers in the UK
>>>> market, but they are the gold standard in the US. They roll so
>>>> freely, though, that a headwind unit is almost required --
>>>> particularly if you use a fixed gear on your rollers like I do (my
>>>> track bike is my roller bike). I don't like the feel of trainers
>>>> although they have their place for strength training and for rehab --
>>>> when you break an arm or a leg and want to at least simulate riding,
>>>> you can do it on a trainer.-- Jay Beattie.

>> --D-y > wrote:
>>> Thanks. I looked:
>>> <http://www.kreitler.co.uk/>
>>> How about that?
>>> My rollers were the old Weyless, with the rigid T-beam sides. Yup,
>>> they rolled pretty easy; haven't ridden Kreitlers but I imagine the
>>> bearings used in both are some kind of standard off the shelf item, so
>>> resistance would be close to the same. Hence the big gear, which at
>>> 130-132", really wasn't much bigger than a modern 53x11. Roughly the
>>> same as 54x11 which is used sometimes on the road and is available if
>>> not "standard".
>>> How much of a blast of air does the Krietler unit give with the
>>> various opening levels?
>>> IOW, does it put out a good flow even at smaller openings, where it's
>>> already adding (example from chart linked to below) 178w at 26 going-
>>> nowhere mph, at 1/4 opening?

> " > wrote:
>> The Kreitler Headwind unit set to wide open provides quite a bit of
>> wind on you. And resistance. Don't know about a lesser opening since
>> I've never used it with a lesser opening. I just took the pivoting
>> cover completely off my Headwind unit so its always wide open.
>> For the person who started the thread, if youget the 4.5" Kreitler
>> Alloy or Challenge rollers, you have to get the Headwind unit.
>> Without the Headwind unit the 4.5" rollers do not provide much
>> resistance. For cost you are better off getting the rollers with the
>> smallest diameter barrels. No need for the Headwind unit since they
>> provide enough resistance by themselves. And they are much lighter
>> than the 4.5" rollers.

Dan O wrote:
> How does a headwind offer resistance if you're not moving anywhere?

It's a product called 'headwind'; a belt-driven fan.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Carl Sundquist]

AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> Jolly Polly > wrote:
>>>>>>> Watch this 2 minute video and you'll appreciate why I recommended
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> fork standhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7UFwHWSnGM
>
>>>>> --D-y > wrote:
>>>>>> Video entitled "How to do everything (almost) wrong".
>>>>>> I used a kitchen "hallway", where there was a narrow entrance to the
>>>>>> kitchen, with countertop on one side, wall on the other.
>>>>>> In moments of distress, bounce off the wall and/or put a hand on the
>>>>>> counter. Bottles, etc. on the counter. TV available.
>>>>>> Yeah, like Video Dufus there figured out, hands on the tops to start.
>>>>>> Big chainring, near middle cog, object being to quickly get the
>>>>>> wheels
>>>>>> spinning fast, which helps with balance. That's the first trick. Then
>>>>>> you can go on to changing hand positions, changing gears, riding no
>>>>>> hands, taking off/putting on shirts/jersies, juggling, whatever.
>>>>>> Resistance units are fine; I used big gears (58t ring) back in the
>>>>>> day. Also used a metronome for "fun with cadences" activities.
>>>>>> IMHO, rollers are less for "power" (stationary trainer there), more
>>>>>> for finesse. Again IMHO, roller riding is one of those cycling things
>>>>>> that any/every rider should develop their potential at in order to
>>>>>> increase skill level, including learning to pedal hard with a relaxed
>>>>>> upper body, and being able to pedal in a straight line. While
>>>>>> juggling, if necessary <g>.
>>>>>> I don't know anything about the rollers you're looking at. The
>>>>>> standard are Kreitler, with aluminum end caps-- and I'd get the 4.5"
>>>>>> size, in interest of being a little easier on the tires. Note
>>>>>> Krietler
>>>>>> offers a resistance unit that also gives a cooling breeze.
>>>>>> <drums.http://www.kreitler.com/product.php?
>>>>>> section=product&item=rollers_4_5>
>>>>>> Expensive new, but they can be found slightly used much cheaper.
>>>>>> --D-y
>
>>>> jwbinpdx > wrote:
>>>>> The OP probably has limited access to the Kreitler rollers in the UK
>>>>> market, but they are the gold standard in the US. They roll so
>>>>> freely, though, that a headwind unit is almost required --
>>>>> particularly if you use a fixed gear on your rollers like I do (my
>>>>> track bike is my roller bike). I don't like the feel of trainers
>>>>> although they have their place for strength training and for rehab --
>>>>> when you break an arm or a leg and want to at least simulate riding,
>>>>> you can do it on a trainer.-- Jay Beattie.
>
>>> --D-y > wrote:
>>>> Thanks. I looked:
>>>> <http://www.kreitler.co.uk/>
>>>> How about that?
>>>> My rollers were the old Weyless, with the rigid T-beam sides. Yup,
>>>> they rolled pretty easy; haven't ridden Kreitlers but I imagine the
>>>> bearings used in both are some kind of standard off the shelf item, so
>>>> resistance would be close to the same. Hence the big gear, which at
>>>> 130-132", really wasn't much bigger than a modern 53x11. Roughly the
>>>> same as 54x11 which is used sometimes on the road and is available if
>>>> not "standard".
>>>> How much of a blast of air does the Krietler unit give with the
>>>> various opening levels?
>>>> IOW, does it put out a good flow even at smaller openings, where it's
>>>> already adding (example from chart linked to below) 178w at 26 going-
>>>> nowhere mph, at 1/4 opening?
>
>> " > wrote:
>>> The Kreitler Headwind unit set to wide open provides quite a bit of
>>> wind on you. And resistance. Don't know about a lesser opening since
>>> I've never used it with a lesser opening. I just took the pivoting
>>> cover completely off my Headwind unit so its always wide open.
>>> For the person who started the thread, if youget the 4.5" Kreitler
>>> Alloy or Challenge rollers, you have to get the Headwind unit.
>>> Without the Headwind unit the 4.5" rollers do not provide much
>>> resistance. For cost you are better off getting the rollers with the
>>> smallest diameter barrels. No need for the Headwind unit since they
>>> provide enough resistance by themselves. And they are much lighter
>>> than the 4.5" rollers.
>
> Dan O wrote:
>> How does a headwind offer resistance if you're not moving anywhere?
>
> It's a product called 'headwind'; a belt-driven fan.

Shouldn't you be at Bike-O-Rama?

[TerryJ]

> after a couple of times it ceases to be a problem. You do learn not to
> do it, eventually

I am trying to get back into rollers having just bought , very cheaply,
some of the plain old type that do not have conical ends to keep you on.
I must say i had forgotten how to get on them and stay on.At the moment
I have to work like mad and concentrate, so I can only do about 5 mins
before pausing to start again.
Am i going to get better?
How long will it take?

[Nick L Plate]

On 15 Mar, 20:42, terryj > wrote:
> > after a couple of times it ceases to be a problem. You do learn not to
> > do it, eventually
>
> I am trying to get back into rollers having just bought , very cheaply,
> some of the plain old type that do not have conical ends to keep you on.
> I must say i had forgotten how to get on them and stay on.At the moment
> I have to work like mad *and concentrate, so I can only do about 5 mins
> before pausing to start again.
> Am i going to get better?
> How long will it take?

If the bike steers well on the road, it should do well on the
rollers. Make sure the front roller is directly under the wheel axle
or ever so slightly back. when riding, focus on a chair 10 foot in
front of you. By watching the legs of the chair you can position
yourself accurately without looking down and possibly making things
worse. It shouldn't take more than 10 minutes to develop confidence.
Relaxation and a fluid pedal action is the key and the purpose of
roller trainiing.
TJ

[Kerry Montgomery]

"Nick L Plate" > wrote in message
...
On 15 Mar, 20:42, terryj > wrote:
> > after a couple of times it ceases to be a problem. You do learn not to
> > do it, eventually
>
> I am trying to get back into rollers having just bought , very cheaply,
> some of the plain old type that do not have conical ends to keep you on.
> I must say i had forgotten how to get on them and stay on.At the moment
> I have to work like mad and concentrate, so I can only do about 5 mins
> before pausing to start again.
> Am i going to get better?
> How long will it take?

If the bike steers well on the road, it should do well on the
rollers. Make sure the front roller is directly under the wheel axle
or ever so slightly back. when riding, focus on a chair 10 foot in
front of you. By watching the legs of the chair you can position
yourself accurately without looking down and possibly making things
worse. It shouldn't take more than 10 minutes to develop confidence.
Relaxation and a fluid pedal action is the key and the purpose of
roller trainiing.
TJ

terryj and TJ,
The center line of the front roller should be slightly in front of the
bicycle front axle, not behind it.
Kerry

[TerryJ]

> terryj and TJ,
> The center line of the front roller should be slightly in front of the
> bicycle front axle, not behind it.
> Kerry

My bikes are a bit long for the max setting of the rollers, and when I
ride a smaller road bike my position is a bit of a compromise, so
perhaps this is why I feel unstable. I shall work on setting up a bike
that fits better.