Continentals

[Vincent Wilcox]

I had, what I consider, an impressive sidewall failure on one of two new
406-28 Continental Grand Prix tyres I bought, passers by remarked about
thinking someone had been shot. Ive searched with the terms Continental
and Sidewall failures and noted a significant number of these in the
past but none of recent. The tyre had less than 50miles ie. brand new,
needless to say I have returned it.

I went to a local LBS to get a replacement tyre and they seemed to think
that this may have been old stock. This particular LBS has always been
good in the past at not stocking things that cause them headaches in
terms of returns. They also lurk on usenet so I assume they are not
bandits and have been excellent at suggesting I go direct to source
rather than from them for certain esoteric items.

The point is that this was a failure on the rear wheel which occured on
a straight and my obvious concern is that it occurs again on the front
wheel mid-corner with a truck behind me. Is there anything I can check
for to avoid this? Or was it a one off?

Also is it just me or do you need to be Godzilla to fit these tyres,
they have bent two of my tyre levers so far. Ive fitted many tyres in
the past none have been this difficult and I am not looking forward to
the prospect of having to repair a flat in the rain on a cold day!

Thanks for any information on this.

[daveornee]

Vincent Wilcox wrote:
> I had, what I consider, an impressive sidewall failure on one of two new
> 406-28 Continental Grand Prix tyres I bought, passers by remarked about
> thinking someone had been shot. Ive searched with the terms Continental
> and Sidewall failures and noted a significant number of these in the
> past but none of recent. The tyre had less than 50miles ie. brand new,
> needless to say I have returned it.
> I went to a local LBS to get a replacement tyre and they seemed to think
> that this may have been old stock. This particular LBS has always been
> good in the past at not stocking things that cause them headaches in
> terms of returns. They also lurk on usenet so I assume they are not
> bandits and have been excellent at suggesting I go direct to source
> rather than from them for certain esoteric items.
> The point is that this was a failure on the rear wheel which occured on
> a straight and my obvious concern is that it occurs again on the front
> wheel mid-corner with a truck behind me. Is there anything I can check
> for to avoid this? Or was it a one off?
> Also is it just me or do you need to be Godzilla to fit these tyres,
> they have bent two of my tyre levers so far. Ive fitted many tyres in
> the past none have been this difficult and I am not looking forward to
> the prospect of having to repair a flat in the rain on a cold day!
> Thanks for any information on this.


I regularly use Continental Grand Prix tires. I have never had troubl
fitting them on the rims by hand.... no tools at all. However, I use
pair of levers to take them off

What does your "sidewall failure" look like

Front tires and front brakes are two of the more important safety item
on your bicycle. Give them a visual check before each ride


-

[daveornee]

Vincent Wilcox wrote:
> I had, what I consider, an impressive sidewall failure on one of two new
> 406-28 Continental Grand Prix tyres I bought, passers by remarked about
> thinking someone had been shot. Ive searched with the terms Continental
> and Sidewall failures and noted a significant number of these in the
> past but none of recent. The tyre had less than 50miles ie. brand new,
> needless to say I have returned it.
> I went to a local LBS to get a replacement tyre and they seemed to think
> that this may have been old stock. This particular LBS has always been
> good in the past at not stocking things that cause them headaches in
> terms of returns. They also lurk on usenet so I assume they are not
> bandits and have been excellent at suggesting I go direct to source
> rather than from them for certain esoteric items.
> The point is that this was a failure on the rear wheel which occured on
> a straight and my obvious concern is that it occurs again on the front
> wheel mid-corner with a truck behind me. Is there anything I can check
> for to avoid this? Or was it a one off?
> Also is it just me or do you need to be Godzilla to fit these tyres,
> they have bent two of my tyre levers so far. Ive fitted many tyres in
> the past none have been this difficult and I am not looking forward to
> the prospect of having to repair a flat in the rain on a cold day!
> Thanks for any information on this.


I regularly use Continental Grand Prix tires. I have never had troubl
fitting them on the rims by hand.... no tools at all. However, I use
pair of levers to take them off

What does your "sidewall failure" look like

Front tires and front brakes are two of the more important safety item
on your bicycle. Give them a visual check before each ride


-

[Vincent Wilcox]

daveornee wrote:
>
> I regularly use Continental Grand Prix tires. I have never had trouble
> fitting them on the rims by hand.... no tools at all. However, I use a
> pair of levers to take them off.
>

Ive fitted quite a few different types of tyre, wire bead,
kevlar bead but these Continentals are ludicrous. Do you eat
alot of spinach?

> What does your "sidewall failure" look like?
>

A 2-3cm tear between the bead and the sidewall. I may have a
picture of it if and when I can get the pictures off the
phone and if they are any good.

> Front tires and front brakes are two of the more important safety items
> on your bicycle. Give them a visual check before each ride.
>

There was nothing amiss with the tyres as they were new. I
had just inflated them to 120psi with a track pump and
checked the pressure with a pressure gauge and cleaned the
rims of sludge from a previous rainy ride. They looked fine,
they rode fine until the rear went bang.

[Vincent Wilcox]

daveornee wrote:
>
> I regularly use Continental Grand Prix tires. I have never had trouble
> fitting them on the rims by hand.... no tools at all. However, I use a
> pair of levers to take them off.
>

Ive fitted quite a few different types of tyre, wire bead,
kevlar bead but these Continentals are ludicrous. Do you eat
alot of spinach?

> What does your "sidewall failure" look like?
>

A 2-3cm tear between the bead and the sidewall. I may have a
picture of it if and when I can get the pictures off the
phone and if they are any good.

> Front tires and front brakes are two of the more important safety items
> on your bicycle. Give them a visual check before each ride.
>

There was nothing amiss with the tyres as they were new. I
had just inflated them to 120psi with a track pump and
checked the pressure with a pressure gauge and cleaned the
rims of sludge from a previous rainy ride. They looked fine,
they rode fine until the rear went bang.

[Bow]

I use Conti Gatorskins on Campag Omegas - it was incredibly tough to get
them off and even worse to get them on.

I was put onto Crank Bros Speed levers - my tyre changes go at least 3 times
as fast, and no sweating or swearing. These things are incredible. You
just need one and a normal plastic tyre lever (i use conti tyre levers as
well because they are as tough as the tyres are to get off!).

Hope this helps,

Bow


"Vincent Wilcox" > wrote in message
...
> daveornee wrote:
> >
> > I regularly use Continental Grand Prix tires. I have never had trouble
> > fitting them on the rims by hand.... no tools at all. However, I use a
> > pair of levers to take them off.
> >
>
> Ive fitted quite a few different types of tyre, wire bead,
> kevlar bead but these Continentals are ludicrous. Do you eat
> alot of spinach?
>
> > What does your "sidewall failure" look like?
> >
>
> A 2-3cm tear between the bead and the sidewall. I may have a
> picture of it if and when I can get the pictures off the
> phone and if they are any good.
>
> > Front tires and front brakes are two of the more important safety items
> > on your bicycle. Give them a visual check before each ride.
> >
>
> There was nothing amiss with the tyres as they were new. I
> had just inflated them to 120psi with a track pump and
> checked the pressure with a pressure gauge and cleaned the
> rims of sludge from a previous rainy ride. They looked fine,
> they rode fine until the rear went bang.
>

[Bow]

I use Conti Gatorskins on Campag Omegas - it was incredibly tough to get
them off and even worse to get them on.

I was put onto Crank Bros Speed levers - my tyre changes go at least 3 times
as fast, and no sweating or swearing. These things are incredible. You
just need one and a normal plastic tyre lever (i use conti tyre levers as
well because they are as tough as the tyres are to get off!).

Hope this helps,

Bow


"Vincent Wilcox" > wrote in message
...
> daveornee wrote:
> >
> > I regularly use Continental Grand Prix tires. I have never had trouble
> > fitting them on the rims by hand.... no tools at all. However, I use a
> > pair of levers to take them off.
> >
>
> Ive fitted quite a few different types of tyre, wire bead,
> kevlar bead but these Continentals are ludicrous. Do you eat
> alot of spinach?
>
> > What does your "sidewall failure" look like?
> >
>
> A 2-3cm tear between the bead and the sidewall. I may have a
> picture of it if and when I can get the pictures off the
> phone and if they are any good.
>
> > Front tires and front brakes are two of the more important safety items
> > on your bicycle. Give them a visual check before each ride.
> >
>
> There was nothing amiss with the tyres as they were new. I
> had just inflated them to 120psi with a track pump and
> checked the pressure with a pressure gauge and cleaned the
> rims of sludge from a previous rainy ride. They looked fine,
> they rode fine until the rear went bang.
>

[Bruce Graham]

In article >, says...
> I had, what I consider, an impressive sidewall failure on one of two new
> 406-28 Continental Grand Prix tyres I bought, passers by remarked about
> thinking someone had been shot. Ive searched with the terms Continental
> and Sidewall failures and noted a significant number of these in the
> past but none of recent. The tyre had less than 50miles ie. brand new,
> needless to say I have returned it.
>
> I went to a local LBS to get a replacement tyre and they seemed to think
> that this may have been old stock. This particular LBS has always been
> good in the past at not stocking things that cause them headaches in
> terms of returns. They also lurk on usenet so I assume they are not
> bandits and have been excellent at suggesting I go direct to source
> rather than from them for certain esoteric items.
>
> The point is that this was a failure on the rear wheel which occured on
> a straight and my obvious concern is that it occurs again on the front
> wheel mid-corner with a truck behind me. Is there anything I can check
> for to avoid this? Or was it a one off?
>
> Also is it just me or do you need to be Godzilla to fit these tyres,
> they have bent two of my tyre levers so far. Ive fitted many tyres in
> the past none have been this difficult and I am not looking forward to
> the prospect of having to repair a flat in the rain on a cold day!
>
> Thanks for any information on this.
>
Do you have thick rim tape and box section rims like Mavic MA2? Some
Continentals do tend to be a bit tight and require a knack (my experience
is with their touring tyres but I have read other peoples reports also).
If you needed a lot of force to mount the tyre maybe you damaged it then.

[Bruce Graham]

In article >, says...
> I had, what I consider, an impressive sidewall failure on one of two new
> 406-28 Continental Grand Prix tyres I bought, passers by remarked about
> thinking someone had been shot. Ive searched with the terms Continental
> and Sidewall failures and noted a significant number of these in the
> past but none of recent. The tyre had less than 50miles ie. brand new,
> needless to say I have returned it.
>
> I went to a local LBS to get a replacement tyre and they seemed to think
> that this may have been old stock. This particular LBS has always been
> good in the past at not stocking things that cause them headaches in
> terms of returns. They also lurk on usenet so I assume they are not
> bandits and have been excellent at suggesting I go direct to source
> rather than from them for certain esoteric items.
>
> The point is that this was a failure on the rear wheel which occured on
> a straight and my obvious concern is that it occurs again on the front
> wheel mid-corner with a truck behind me. Is there anything I can check
> for to avoid this? Or was it a one off?
>
> Also is it just me or do you need to be Godzilla to fit these tyres,
> they have bent two of my tyre levers so far. Ive fitted many tyres in
> the past none have been this difficult and I am not looking forward to
> the prospect of having to repair a flat in the rain on a cold day!
>
> Thanks for any information on this.
>
Do you have thick rim tape and box section rims like Mavic MA2? Some
Continentals do tend to be a bit tight and require a knack (my experience
is with their touring tyres but I have read other peoples reports also).
If you needed a lot of force to mount the tyre maybe you damaged it then.

[Vincent Wilcox]

Bruce Graham wrote:
> Do you have thick rim tape and box section rims like Mavic MA2? Some
> Continentals do tend to be a bit tight and require a knack (my experience
> is with their touring tyres but I have read other peoples reports also).
> If you needed a lot of force to mount the tyre maybe you damaged it then.

The rims are Alex DA16 and I am using Velox rim tape. I
could mount the previous Schwalbe Marathon slicks with very
little effort. The GPs seem to take me about 5-10minutes
with equal amounts of levering/swearing. I cant see the
levers lasting another session.

[Vincent Wilcox]

Bruce Graham wrote:
> Do you have thick rim tape and box section rims like Mavic MA2? Some
> Continentals do tend to be a bit tight and require a knack (my experience
> is with their touring tyres but I have read other peoples reports also).
> If you needed a lot of force to mount the tyre maybe you damaged it then.

The rims are Alex DA16 and I am using Velox rim tape. I
could mount the previous Schwalbe Marathon slicks with very
little effort. The GPs seem to take me about 5-10minutes
with equal amounts of levering/swearing. I cant see the
levers lasting another session.

[Vincent Wilcox]

Bow wrote:
> I use Conti Gatorskins on Campag Omegas - it was incredibly tough to get
> them off and even worse to get them on.
>
> I was put onto Crank Bros Speed levers - my tyre changes go at least 3 times
> as fast, and no sweating or swearing. These things are incredible. You
> just need one and a normal plastic tyre lever (i use conti tyre levers as
> well because they are as tough as the tyres are to get off!).
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Bow
>

Will look into this. Thanks.

[Vincent Wilcox]

Bow wrote:
> I use Conti Gatorskins on Campag Omegas - it was incredibly tough to get
> them off and even worse to get them on.
>
> I was put onto Crank Bros Speed levers - my tyre changes go at least 3 times
> as fast, and no sweating or swearing. These things are incredible. You
> just need one and a normal plastic tyre lever (i use conti tyre levers as
> well because they are as tough as the tyres are to get off!).
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Bow
>

Will look into this. Thanks.

[Matt O'Toole]

Vincent Wilcox wrote:

> Bruce Graham wrote:

>> Do you have thick rim tape and box section rims like Mavic MA2? Some
>> Continentals do tend to be a bit tight and require a knack (my
>> experience is with their touring tyres but I have read other peoples
>> reports also). If you needed a lot of force to mount the tyre maybe
>> you damaged it then.
>
> The rims are Alex DA16 and I am using Velox rim tape. I
> could mount the previous Schwalbe Marathon slicks with very
> little effort. The GPs seem to take me about 5-10minutes
> with equal amounts of levering/swearing. I cant see the
> levers lasting another session.

I used to have this problem with some Conti Avenue slicks on my MTB. Getting a
flat was a half hour ordeal, usually involving blood loss. Fast tires, but too
much of a pain to deal with, so I got rid of them.

I also once helped a fellow cyclist having similar troubles w/ some Conti road
tires.

This seems to be a common complaint. Sidewall cuts and fabric coming apart
seems to be a problem with Contis too. So why do people keep buying them?

Matt O.

[Matt O'Toole]

Vincent Wilcox wrote:

> Bruce Graham wrote:

>> Do you have thick rim tape and box section rims like Mavic MA2? Some
>> Continentals do tend to be a bit tight and require a knack (my
>> experience is with their touring tyres but I have read other peoples
>> reports also). If you needed a lot of force to mount the tyre maybe
>> you damaged it then.
>
> The rims are Alex DA16 and I am using Velox rim tape. I
> could mount the previous Schwalbe Marathon slicks with very
> little effort. The GPs seem to take me about 5-10minutes
> with equal amounts of levering/swearing. I cant see the
> levers lasting another session.

I used to have this problem with some Conti Avenue slicks on my MTB. Getting a
flat was a half hour ordeal, usually involving blood loss. Fast tires, but too
much of a pain to deal with, so I got rid of them.

I also once helped a fellow cyclist having similar troubles w/ some Conti road
tires.

This seems to be a common complaint. Sidewall cuts and fabric coming apart
seems to be a problem with Contis too. So why do people keep buying them?

Matt O.

[Zog The Undeniable]

Vincent Wilcox wrote:

> I had, what I consider, an impressive sidewall failure on one of two new
> 406-28 Continental Grand Prix tyres I bought, passers by remarked about
> thinking someone had been shot. Ive searched with the terms Continental
> and Sidewall failures and noted a significant number of these in the
> past but none of recent. The tyre had less than 50miles ie. brand new,
> needless to say I have returned it.

Conti GP sidewalls are very vulnerable to the flints around here. A 2"
gash isn't unusual, which of course wrecks the tyre and often the tube.

> I went to a local LBS to get a replacement tyre and they seemed to think
> that this may have been old stock. This particular LBS has always been
> good in the past at not stocking things that cause them headaches in
> terms of returns. They also lurk on usenet so I assume they are not
> bandits and have been excellent at suggesting I go direct to source
> rather than from them for certain esoteric items.
>
> The point is that this was a failure on the rear wheel which occured on
> a straight and my obvious concern is that it occurs again on the front
> wheel mid-corner with a truck behind me. Is there anything I can check
> for to avoid this? Or was it a one off?

Keep out of road debris or don't use Continental GPs :-)

> Also is it just me or do you need to be Godzilla to fit these tyres,
> they have bent two of my tyre levers so far. Ive fitted many tyres in
> the past none have been this difficult and I am not looking forward to
> the prospect of having to repair a flat in the rain on a cold day!

There are some bad tyre/rim combinations. The worst I've found yet are
the (otherwise rather lovely) Campag Omega semi-aero rims and
Specialized Turbo-S folding tyres. I'm ashamed to say I had to use a
tyre lever to fit them because the Omegas have a very shallow rim bed
and the tyre beads are completely unstretchable.

[Zog The Undeniable]

Vincent Wilcox wrote:

> I had, what I consider, an impressive sidewall failure on one of two new
> 406-28 Continental Grand Prix tyres I bought, passers by remarked about
> thinking someone had been shot. Ive searched with the terms Continental
> and Sidewall failures and noted a significant number of these in the
> past but none of recent. The tyre had less than 50miles ie. brand new,
> needless to say I have returned it.

Conti GP sidewalls are very vulnerable to the flints around here. A 2"
gash isn't unusual, which of course wrecks the tyre and often the tube.

> I went to a local LBS to get a replacement tyre and they seemed to think
> that this may have been old stock. This particular LBS has always been
> good in the past at not stocking things that cause them headaches in
> terms of returns. They also lurk on usenet so I assume they are not
> bandits and have been excellent at suggesting I go direct to source
> rather than from them for certain esoteric items.
>
> The point is that this was a failure on the rear wheel which occured on
> a straight and my obvious concern is that it occurs again on the front
> wheel mid-corner with a truck behind me. Is there anything I can check
> for to avoid this? Or was it a one off?

Keep out of road debris or don't use Continental GPs :-)

> Also is it just me or do you need to be Godzilla to fit these tyres,
> they have bent two of my tyre levers so far. Ive fitted many tyres in
> the past none have been this difficult and I am not looking forward to
> the prospect of having to repair a flat in the rain on a cold day!

There are some bad tyre/rim combinations. The worst I've found yet are
the (otherwise rather lovely) Campag Omega semi-aero rims and
Specialized Turbo-S folding tyres. I'm ashamed to say I had to use a
tyre lever to fit them because the Omegas have a very shallow rim bed
and the tyre beads are completely unstretchable.

[Zog The Undeniable]

Bow wrote:

> I use Conti Gatorskins on Campag Omegas - it was incredibly tough to get
> them off and even worse to get them on.

Yup, Omegas are probably the worst rim for tyre fitting. Apart from
that they are (or were) one of the best rims out there in terms of
strength and weight.

[Zog The Undeniable]

Bow wrote:

> I use Conti Gatorskins on Campag Omegas - it was incredibly tough to get
> them off and even worse to get them on.

Yup, Omegas are probably the worst rim for tyre fitting. Apart from
that they are (or were) one of the best rims out there in terms of
strength and weight.

[Jeff Wills]

Vincent Wilcox > wrote in message >...
> Bruce Graham wrote:
> > Do you have thick rim tape and box section rims like Mavic MA2? Some
> > Continentals do tend to be a bit tight and require a knack (my experience
> > is with their touring tyres but I have read other peoples reports also).
> > If you needed a lot of force to mount the tyre maybe you damaged it then.
>
> The rims are Alex DA16 and I am using Velox rim tape. I
> could mount the previous Schwalbe Marathon slicks with very
> little effort. The GPs seem to take me about 5-10minutes
> with equal amounts of levering/swearing. I cant see the
> levers lasting another session.

The Continentals are a lot smaller section that the Marathons (28mm
vs. 37mm), so there's less sidewall to flex. That, plus the fact that
your Continentals are about the narrowest 20" tires around, plus
having a narrow rim, plus using thick Velox rim tape would make
mounting the tire a chore.

If it continues to be a problem, I would replace the rim tape with
something thinner. In extreme cases, a couple layers of fiberglass
reinforced strapping tape has worked for me.

Jeff

[Jeff Wills]

Vincent Wilcox > wrote in message >...
> Bruce Graham wrote:
> > Do you have thick rim tape and box section rims like Mavic MA2? Some
> > Continentals do tend to be a bit tight and require a knack (my experience
> > is with their touring tyres but I have read other peoples reports also).
> > If you needed a lot of force to mount the tyre maybe you damaged it then.
>
> The rims are Alex DA16 and I am using Velox rim tape. I
> could mount the previous Schwalbe Marathon slicks with very
> little effort. The GPs seem to take me about 5-10minutes
> with equal amounts of levering/swearing. I cant see the
> levers lasting another session.

The Continentals are a lot smaller section that the Marathons (28mm
vs. 37mm), so there's less sidewall to flex. That, plus the fact that
your Continentals are about the narrowest 20" tires around, plus
having a narrow rim, plus using thick Velox rim tape would make
mounting the tire a chore.

If it continues to be a problem, I would replace the rim tape with
something thinner. In extreme cases, a couple layers of fiberglass
reinforced strapping tape has worked for me.

Jeff

[bfd]

"Matt O'Toole" > wrote in message >...
> Vincent Wilcox wrote:
>
> > Bruce Graham wrote:
>
> >> Do you have thick rim tape and box section rims like Mavic MA2? Some
> >> Continentals do tend to be a bit tight and require a knack (my
> >> experience is with their touring tyres but I have read other peoples
> >> reports also). If you needed a lot of force to mount the tyre maybe
> >> you damaged it then.
> >
> > The rims are Alex DA16 and I am using Velox rim tape. I
> > could mount the previous Schwalbe Marathon slicks with very
> > little effort. The GPs seem to take me about 5-10minutes
> > with equal amounts of levering/swearing. I cant see the
> > levers lasting another session.
>
> I used to have this problem with some Conti Avenue slicks on my MTB. Getting a
> flat was a half hour ordeal, usually involving blood loss. Fast tires, but too
> much of a pain to deal with, so I got rid of them.
>
> I also once helped a fellow cyclist having similar troubles w/ some Conti road
> tires.
>
> This seems to be a common complaint. Sidewall cuts and fabric coming apart
> seems to be a problem with Contis too. So why do people keep buying them?
>
Marketing. Continental and Michelin are the best at that game. In
contrast, take a look at Avocet. On this newsgroup Avocet has a great
reputation, especially their tires. Further, at one point, Avocet had
arguably one of the largest share of the cyclocomputer market. Yet,
maybe because of their "direct dealing only" way of selling its
products, and the apparent lack of any other marketing, if you go into
just about any bike shops or do an internet search, Avocet seems to be
almost nonexistent.

[bfd]

"Matt O'Toole" > wrote in message >...
> Vincent Wilcox wrote:
>
> > Bruce Graham wrote:
>
> >> Do you have thick rim tape and box section rims like Mavic MA2? Some
> >> Continentals do tend to be a bit tight and require a knack (my
> >> experience is with their touring tyres but I have read other peoples
> >> reports also). If you needed a lot of force to mount the tyre maybe
> >> you damaged it then.
> >
> > The rims are Alex DA16 and I am using Velox rim tape. I
> > could mount the previous Schwalbe Marathon slicks with very
> > little effort. The GPs seem to take me about 5-10minutes
> > with equal amounts of levering/swearing. I cant see the
> > levers lasting another session.
>
> I used to have this problem with some Conti Avenue slicks on my MTB. Getting a
> flat was a half hour ordeal, usually involving blood loss. Fast tires, but too
> much of a pain to deal with, so I got rid of them.
>
> I also once helped a fellow cyclist having similar troubles w/ some Conti road
> tires.
>
> This seems to be a common complaint. Sidewall cuts and fabric coming apart
> seems to be a problem with Contis too. So why do people keep buying them?
>
Marketing. Continental and Michelin are the best at that game. In
contrast, take a look at Avocet. On this newsgroup Avocet has a great
reputation, especially their tires. Further, at one point, Avocet had
arguably one of the largest share of the cyclocomputer market. Yet,
maybe because of their "direct dealing only" way of selling its
products, and the apparent lack of any other marketing, if you go into
just about any bike shops or do an internet search, Avocet seems to be
almost nonexistent.

[Rick Onanian]

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 15:29:29 +1000, "Bow" >
wrote:
>I was put onto Crank Bros Speed levers - my tyre changes go at least 3 times
>as fast, and no sweating or swearing. These things are incredible. You
>just need one and a normal plastic tyre lever (i use conti tyre levers as
>well because they are as tough as the tyres are to get off!).

I have a couple Speed levers, but they don't seem any good on tight
fits. How do you use them when the tire is too tight?
--
Rick Onanian

[Jay Hill]

bfd wrote:
>
> Marketing. Continental and Michelin are the best at that game. In
> contrast, take a look at Avocet. On this newsgroup Avocet has a great
> reputation, especially their tires. Further, at one point, Avocet had
> arguably one of the largest share of the cyclocomputer market.

I agree about the tires, but Avocet's computers are notoriously fragile,
and they've deserved to lose that market share.

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

bfd-<< Further, at one point, Avocet had
arguably one of the largest share of the cyclocomputer market. Yet,
maybe because of their "direct dealing only" way of selling its
products, and the apparent lack of any other marketing, >><BR><BR>

We stopped with Avocet computers because after they changed manufacturers, we
had about a 50% failure rate on new ones...so we stopped sellin' them.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

[SMMB]

"bfd" > a écrit dans le message de :
m...

> Marketing. Continental and Michelin are the best at that game. In
> contrast, take a look at Avocet.

My observations : Germany loves Continentals with Vittoria not close in
second ; France loves either Michelin or Hutchinson, with Vittoria next ;
Italy seems to think Vittorias are best, and Continental is, I believe, the
next favorite. Note, that all of these are ACTUAL manufacturers, located
physically in Europe.

> On this newsgroup Avocet has a great
> reputation, especially their tires.

On the other hand, I have never seen an Avocet tire for sale in Europe.
Maybe I
didn't look too hard, but I think I would have noticed. After all I was a
fan of Barums, while they still existed, so I am not chauvinistic or
snobbish about tire selection.

Maybe if Avocet actually made things (I am under the impression that its all
design and engineering, with no fabrication), there would be more selling,
not just marketing. After all, selling someone else's products is
"marketing" at a fundamental level. Of course, if there really are Avocet
factories, profuse apologies.
--
Bonne route,

Sandy
Paris FR

[Matt O'Toole]

SMMB wrote:

> My observations : Germany loves Continentals with Vittoria not close
> in second ; France loves either Michelin or Hutchinson, with Vittoria
> next ; Italy seems to think Vittorias are best, and Continental is, I
> believe, the next favorite. Note, that all of these are ACTUAL
> manufacturers, located physically in Europe.

Vittorias are not made in Italy, but Thailand. Velonews just did a big story on
it.

Matt O.

[Matt O'Toole]

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

> bfd-<< Further, at one point, Avocet had
> arguably one of the largest share of the cyclocomputer market. Yet,
> maybe because of their "direct dealing only" way of selling its
> products, and the apparent lack of any other marketing, >><BR><BR>
>
> We stopped with Avocet computers because after they changed
> manufacturers, we had about a 50% failure rate on new ones...so we
> stopped sellin' them.

Avocet had some great stuff, they just never marketed it well. Or at all.
Their tires are great, their saddles were really hot for awhile, and their
computers were my favorite -- until they died in the rain.

Matt O.

[charles ramsey]

Bill McCready of santana talk about this in the santana catalog the
first continentals he would use on his tandems is called a gatorskin
it has a extra ply with a checker board pattern that you can see on
the outside of the tire. He also uses it on his triples. One thing
about santana is every one of his customers can afford to sue him so
he tends to be consurvative about what he specs. If it works for you
let us know.

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

leurre-<< Note, that all of these are ACTUAL manufacturers, located
physically in Europe. >><BR><BR>

Vittoria is made entirely in Thailand...

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

[SMMB]

Do I get points for 3 out of 4 ?

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " > a écrit dans le message de :
...
> leurre-<< Note, that all of these are ACTUAL manufacturers, located
> physically in Europe. >><BR><BR>
>
> Vittoria is made entirely in Thailand...
>
> Peter Chisholm
> Vecchio's Bicicletteria
> 1833 Pearl St.
> Boulder, CO, 80302
> (303)440-3535
> http://www.vecchios.com
> "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

[Derk]

Vincent Wilcox wrote:
> Also is it just me or do you need to be Godzilla to fit these tyres,
> they have bent two of my tyre levers so far. Ive fitted many tyres in
> the past none have been this difficult and I am not looking forward to
> the prospect of having to repair a flat in the rain on a cold day!
It's actually very easy: you just first press the Conti tyre to the center
of the rim (the deepest point)using your thumbs. You work your way all
around the rim and then a 8 year old can put it on easily!

Greets, Derk

[bfd]

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " > wrote in message
...
> leurre-<< Note, that all of these are ACTUAL manufacturers, located
> physically in Europe. >><BR><BR>
>
> Vittoria is made entirely in Thailand...
>
Well, it could have been worse, he could have also stated that Clement tires
are also made in Europe....here's a link to an excellent description of the
new Clement TT tubular tires (also made in THAILAND):

http://www.yellowjersey.org/tt.html

[Bruce Graham]

In article >, says...
> Do I get points for 3 out of 4 ?
>
> "Qui si parla Campagnolo " > a écrit dans le message de :
> ...
> > leurre-<< Note, that all of these are ACTUAL manufacturers, located
> > physically in Europe. >><BR><BR>
> >
> > Vittoria is made entirely in Thailand...
> >
> > Peter Chisholm
> > Vecchio's Bicicletteria
> > 1833 Pearl St.
> > Boulder, CO, 80302
> > (303)440-3535
> > http://www.vecchios.com
> > "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
>
>
>
No, at least some Continentals are now made in Thailand. At least the
price reduced at the same time at my LBS. (Top Touring).

They look the same, but mounted easier than the German ones from a few
years ago. Probably just sample variation.

[SMMB]

"Bruce Graham" > a écrit dans le message de :
. au...
> In article >, says...
> > Do I get points for 3 out of 4 ?

> No, at least some

SOME, yes ....

> Continentals are now made in Thailand. At least the
> price reduced at the same time at my LBS. (Top Touring).

Sorry, but I will claim the points - and more. Vittoria has been absent
from its original manufacturing home only around two years.

But the original question was about the sales popularity of major brands
compared to Avocet. My comment stands, that the bands that sell so well,
and are complained of, remain manufacturers, not marketers, branding
concerns, dream weavers. Unless I am also wrong that Avocet does not
manufacture, I think the point is properly made.

The part I was noting, apart from the above, was that there remains a
national preference in Europe. I read that in the US the public debate now
rages over the exportation of a wide range of jobs, primarily in
manufacturing, with computer programming a close second. When you don't
MAKE anything any longer, it's hard to sustain a credible economy. Or
not...

My own complaint is the unitizing of wheels for sale - hard to get those
rims you want to build wheels, as Campy, FIR, FRM, Rigida, etc., are all
pushing the packages and at a very high premium for what you get.
--
Bonne route,

Sandy
Paris FR,

[David L. Johnson]

On Mon, 03 May 2004 16:08:17 +0200, SMMB wrote:

> But the original question was about the sales popularity of major brands
> compared to Avocet. My comment stands, that the bands that sell so well,
> and are complained of, remain manufacturers, not marketers, branding
> concerns, dream weavers.

You did omit "designers". From a quality point-of-view, it doesn't matter
whether the factory is theirs or the job is done by a third party.
Even with "made in Germany" Conti's, the rubber is made by someone
else, as is the casing material. But design specs, and quality
control, do matter. In that respect I cannot understand the
popularity of Continentals. Too many of them blow out at the
sidewalls. Far fewer sidewall failures for other brands, in my
experience. In fact, every single poor schlemiel I have rescued on
a ride with a sidewall cut was riding Continentals. Coincidence?

Also, since as you point out no bike tires have been made in the US for
many years, there is no nationalism issue for me. And I ride Avocets.

> The part I was noting, apart from the above, was that there remains a
> national preference in Europe. I read that in the US the public debate
> now rages over the exportation of a wide range of jobs, primarily in
> manufacturing, with computer programming a close second.

Well, the current rage is over the exporting of "customer service"
departments to India.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | There is always an easy solution to every human problem - neat,
_`\(,_ | plausible, and wrong. --H.L. Mencken
(_)/ (_) |

[bfd]

"SMMB" > wrote in message >...
> "Bruce Graham" > a écrit dans le message de :
> . au...
> > In article >, says...
> > > Do I get points for 3 out of 4 ?
>
> > No, at least some
>
> SOME, yes ....
>
> > Continentals are now made in Thailand. At least the
> > price reduced at the same time at my LBS. (Top Touring).
>
> Sorry, but I will claim the points - and more. Vittoria has been absent
> from its original manufacturing home only around two years.
>
> But the original question was about the sales popularity of major brands
> compared to Avocet. My comment stands, that the bands that sell so well,
> and are complained of, remain manufacturers, not marketers, branding
> concerns, dream weavers. Unless I am also wrong that Avocet does not
> manufacture, I think the point is properly made.
>
This is true, Avocet does not manufacture its own tires. It designs
and contracts out the actual built. The older Avocet black with tan
sidewall Fasgrip tires were former made by IRC in Japan. The newer
all-black, "carbon 12" Fasgrip tires are now made in Korea. Despite
the fact that Avocet never manfactured its own tires, at one point,
and especially on this newsgroup, Avocet had a very good share of the
bicycle tire market. Now, compared to other companies like Michelin,
Continental, Vittoria, Hutchinson, Tufo, Veloflex and Vredestein and
others, its share is just about nothing. The same could be said for
its saddles and cyclocomputers. Is this because it doesn't manufacture
its own tires? I doubt it. I think its more just poor marketing and
distribution philosophy.

> My own complaint is the unitizing of wheels for sale - hard to get those
> rims you want to build wheels, as Campy, FIR, FRM, Rigida, etc., are all
> pushing the packages and at a very high premium for what you get.

Again, more marketing. The companies you named plus arguably the "king
of boutiques", Mavic have all found that putting together a "boutique
wheelset" is alot more profitable than selling just a rim. I have just
gone thru this same "game" as one of my buddies is builting up a new
bike and bought into and really, really, wanted the Campy Neutron
wheelset. However, the longer he delayed, the higher the price got as
supply got shorter and the euro to US dollar ratio got worse. Now that
the Neutrons supposedly "wholesale" price is something like
$625/retail over $700, he's thinking differently and has now borrowed
one my handbuilt rear wheels (Ritchey OCR rim/Chorus hub/DT db spokes)
to try out....

[Donald Gillies]

>bfd wrote:
>>
>> On this newsgroup Avocet has a great reputation, especially their tires.
>>

Avocet tires are made by IRC. If you like Avocet tires, you might
also like other IRC tires.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

[DRS]

"charles ramsey" > wrote in message
m
> Bill McCready of santana talk about this in the santana catalog the
> first continentals he would use on his tandems is called a gatorskin
> it has a extra ply with a checker board pattern that you can see on
> the outside of the tire. He also uses it on his triples. One thing
> about santana is every one of his customers can afford to sue him so
> he tends to be consurvative about what he specs. If it works for you
> let us know.

The Ultra Gatorskins are hugely controversial. They manage to polarise
users like few other tyres, as attested by user reviews at sites like
Bikemagic and RoadBikeReview, so much so that one well-known and reputable
Conti dealer here refuses to recommend them. It's a shame, they're such a
nice looking tyre.

Ultra Gatorskin:
http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/de/en/continental/bicycle/themes/tires/race/ultra_gatorskin/ultra_gatorskin_en.html
Duraskin:
http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/de/en/continental/bicycle/general/innovation/duraskin_en.html

--

A: Top-posters.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

[John McGraw]

Derk > wrote in message >...
> Vincent Wilcox wrote:
> > Also is it just me or do you need to be Godzilla to fit these tyres,
> > they have bent two of my tyre levers so far. Ive fitted many tyres in
> > the past none have been this difficult and I am not looking forward to
> > the prospect of having to repair a flat in the rain on a cold day!
> It's actually very easy: you just first press the Conti tyre to the center
> of the rim (the deepest point)using your thumbs. You work your way all
> around the rim and then a 8 year old can put it on easily!
>
> Greets, Derk

Hay Derk
Most tire /rim combinations are as you describe, childs play. However
I believe that you have not experienced the combination some of the
above posters are talking about. Some beads so tight and / or strong,
rims are so shallow, plus the use of velox tape (which is the only
tape, that I know of, to reliably prevent flats on the inside of road
bike tubes) that it makes little difference if the beads are centered.
I strongly suspect that you have rims w/ a deep center, or you're a
Godzilla clone :).

Also for many, many happy years I used a 35mm Michelin touring tire. I
think it had "Hi" in its name. Some time in the '90s they
discontinued it. It looked like something one would have seen on a
bike in a Western Auto store.(boy do I date myself w/ that remark.)
Definitely not a high tech look, but god was it a great touring tire.
I imanigne some on this ng have used & loved this tire also. If so,
what is the best (or even better?) replacement have you found?

Tnx John

[bfd]

"Donald Gillies" > wrote in message
...
> >bfd wrote:
> >>
> >> On this newsgroup Avocet has a great reputation, especially their
tires.
> >>
>
> Avocet tires are made by IRC. If you like Avocet tires, you might
> also like other IRC tires.
>
Make that "were made by IRC". Avocet *new* carbon 12, all-black fasgrip
tires are now made in Korea.

[[email protected]]

Matt O'Toole writes:

>>> Do you have thick rim tape and box section rims like Mavic MA2?
>>> Some Continentals do tend to be a bit tight and require a knack
>>> (my experience is with their touring tyres but I have read other
>>> peoples reports also). If you needed a lot of force to mount the
>>> tyre maybe you damaged it then.

>> The rims are Alex DA16 and I am using Velox rim tape. I could
>> mount the previous Schwalbe Marathon slicks with very little
>> effort. The GPs seem to take me about 5-10minutes with equal
>> amounts of levering/swearing. I cant see the levers lasting
>> another session.

> I used to have this problem with some Conti Avenue slicks on my MTB.
> Getting a flat was a half hour ordeal, usually involving blood loss.
> Fast tires, but too much of a pain to deal with, so I got rid of
> them.

> I also once helped a fellow cyclist having similar troubles w/ some
> Conti road tires.

> This seems to be a common complaint. Sidewall cuts and fabric
> coming apart seems to be a problem with Contis too. So why do
> people keep buying them?

I have listened to people tell these stories for at least 20 years and
wonder why people buy these tires that have low TPI, brown sidewalls
that hide this fact, seem to be hard to mount and are, more often than
any other tire, reported to have sidewall failures.

How does Continental have such a following? I don't get it. What's
the appeal? There are other well known brands on the market, none of
which are regularly mentioned as being hard to mount and suffering
side wall ruptures. Most of these tires also cost less.

Jobst Brandt

[[email protected]]

anonymous writes:

>>> On this newsgroup Avocet has a great reputation, especially their tires.

>> Avocet tires are made by IRC. If you like Avocet tires, you might
>> also like other IRC tires.

> Make that "were made by IRC". Avocet *new* carbon 12, all-black
> fasgrip tires are now made in Korea.

Call that offshore for IRC. They are still IRC tires.

Jobst Brandt

[Daniel Wilcox]

wrote:

> I have listened to people tell these stories for at least 20 years and
> wonder why people buy these tires that have low TPI,

They are advertised as being 285tpi, is that low?

>
> How does Continental have such a following? I don't get it. What's
> the appeal? There are other well known brands on the market, none of

They were the only tyre I could find at the size I wanted made with
carbon black (28-406). I also had the Schwalbe Stelvio's recommended but
they seem to be silica based dual compound efforts. I was none too
impressed with the pair of Marathon slicks I had before the continentals
which were also dual compound.

Carbon black tyres seem to be quite rare, the only ones I know of are
Michelin Carbon, the infamous Grand Prixs and Avocet (unavailable here).
I have a pair of Michelins and I am happy with these but they are
unavailable in 406. Any others I have missed?

> which are regularly mentioned as being hard to mount and suffering
> side wall ruptures. Most of these tires also cost less.
>

I won't get them again although relatively they are cheap at 15ukp.
However I am limited in my options. Does anyone have any other
recommendations in the 406-28 size?

[David Damerell]

Vincent Wilcox > wrote:
>daveornee wrote:
>>I regularly use Continental Grand Prix tires. I have never had trouble
>>fitting them on the rims by hand.... no tools at all. However, I use a
>>pair of levers to take them off.
>Ive fitted quite a few different types of tyre, wire bead,
>kevlar bead but these Continentals are ludicrous. Do you eat
>alot of spinach?

I think Continental are getting a bit unreliable in this respect. The last
GP300 I had - 23mm, kevlar bead - I could not fit even with tyre levers.
I've never had any difficulty with any tyre fitting before.
--
David Damerell > Distortion Field!

[[email protected]]

Daniel Wilcox writes:

>> I have listened to people tell these stories for at least 20 years
>> and wonder why people buy these tires that have low TPI,

> They are advertised as being 285TPI, is that low?

I don't know how they are counting that but that number is higher than
the best silk track tires I have seen, ones with sidewalls barely
thicker than a sheet of bond paper. The 285 must be an accounting trick
by which the individual fibers of a thread are counted.

Consider that that is 0.0035" per thread (1/285). Liar liar pants on
fire or some similar response is appropriate. The Continental tires I
have seen have coarser threads than the kite string on toy kits.

>> How does Continental have such a following? I don't get it.
>> What's the appeal? There are other well known brands on the
>> market, none of

> They were the only tyre I could find at the size I wanted made with
> carbon black (28-406). I also had the Schwalbe Stelvio's recommended
> but they seem to be silica based dual compound efforts. I was none
> too impressed with the pair of Marathon slicks I had before the
> Continentals which were also dual compound.

Fashion rules. Color is in!

> Carbon black tyres seem to be quite rare, the only ones I know of
> are Michelin Carbon, the infamous Grand Prixs and Avocet
> (unavailable here). I have a pair of Michelins and I am happy with
> these but they are unavailable in 406. Any others I have missed?

>> which are regularly mentioned as being hard to mount and suffering
>> side wall ruptures. Most of these tires also cost less.

> I won't get them again although relatively they are cheap at 15ukp.
> However I am limited in my options. Does anyone have any other
> recommendations in the 406-28 size?

I'm not familiar with that size.

Jobst Brandt

[Daniel Wilcox]

wrote:
> Consider that that is 0.0035" per thread (1/285). Liar liar pants on
> fire or some similar response is appropriate. The Continental tires I
> have seen have coarser threads than the kite string on toy kits.
>

Ok, I was wondering why some tyres were around 65 - 127tpi and the
continentals so high, there GP 3000s are 430tpi. They must use the same
people who assign hi-fi amplifier wattage ratings, 380W PPODLS (Peak
Power Output in Direct Lightning Strike)...

>
> Fashion rules. Color is in!
>

But black is always in fashion!

>
>
> I'm not familiar with that size.

20" 1 1/8

[Wort]

On 04 May 2004 18:02:08 +0100 (BST), David Damerell
> wrote:

>Vincent Wilcox > wrote:
>>daveornee wrote:
>>>I regularly use Continental Grand Prix tires. I have never had trouble
>>>fitting them on the rims by hand.... no tools at all. However, I use a
>>>pair of levers to take them off.
>>Ive fitted quite a few different types of tyre, wire bead,
>>kevlar bead but these Continentals are ludicrous. Do you eat
>>alot of spinach?
>
>I think Continental are getting a bit unreliable in this respect. The last
>GP300 I had - 23mm, kevlar bead - I could not fit even with tyre levers.
>I've never had any difficulty with any tyre fitting before.


Hi,

The Conti fit may well depend on the wheel rim that you are mounting
it on.

I did mount a couple of GP 3000s on my Campag Scirroco wheels with no
undue difficulty. I did use irons and did mount the tire first
without a tube to stretch it out a bit and then added the tube. Yes
this was a bit of extra work but what the heck I've been using them as
my racing tires/wheels since the end of Feb without any incidents.

Mounting Michelins on my Shimano RD 540 wheels used as training
wheels, now that was a struggle! Even after 6 months when I fix a flat
I wonder if i'll get the tire back on


Regards
Wayne

[DRS]

"Daniel Wilcox" > wrote in message

> wrote:
>> Consider that that is 0.0035" per thread (1/285). Liar liar pants on
>> fire or some similar response is appropriate. The Continental tires
>> I have seen have coarser threads than the kite string on toy kits.
>
> Ok, I was wondering why some tyres were around 65 - 127tpi and the
> continentals so high, there GP 3000s are 430tpi. They must use the
> same people who assign hi-fi amplifier wattage ratings, 380W PPODLS
> (Peak Power Output in Direct Lightning Strike)...

Conti count the number of threads per layer and add them up.

--

A: Top-posters.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

[dvt]

wrote:
> How does Continental have such a following? I don't get it. What's
> the appeal? There are other well known brands on the market, none of
> which are regularly mentioned as being hard to mount and suffering
> side wall ruptures. Most of these tires also cost less.

Despite the frequent rumblings on this newsgroup, I can't find many
low-cost, decent quality tyres at my LBS. Once upon a time I bought
Avocets from Sheldon since my LBS was unwilling to do business with
Avocet. Since the advent of "Carbon-12" and the higher prices at Avocet,
I haven't found a suitable replacement. Any suggestions?

I rode the Avocet Duro (28-622) for general purpose and commuting, and I
used the Avocet Criterium (23-622) on my race bike. Note that my
dimensions are smaller than the advertised dimensions since Avocet
seemed to exaggerate the tyre size back in the old days.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

[Tim McNamara]

writes:

> How does Continental have such a following? I don't get it. What's
> the appeal? There are other well known brands on the market, none
> of which are regularly mentioned as being hard to mount and
> suffering side wall ruptures. Most of these tires also cost less.

Well, availability is an issue at least here in Minnesota. Avocet
slicks are available in zero bike shops around here AFAIK- the only
place that stocked (Osell's) them went out of business when the owner
retired. The invert-tread car tire for bikes that Avocet makes is
often available in ones or twos, but that tire is like riding uphill
all day long.

Continentals are available everywhere. IME the Ultra 2000 700 x 28
works very well and lasts as long as an Avocet of the same size. They
seem to mount just fine on an MA2. And I can get 'em easily, although
they *are* $30 which seems excessive. The usual alternatives are
Michelin's multicolored "silly-ca" rubber tires.

Until Avocet becomes much more dealer-friendly, their market share
will continue to be restricted. Not just their tires, but their
computers as well. I haven't seen an Avocet computer for sale in a
bike shop in years. I'm a little amazed that the Avocet brass hasn't
figured this out for themselves.

[Mike DeMicco]

In article >, dvt >
wrote:

> wrote:
> > How does Continental have such a following? I don't get it. What's
> > the appeal? There are other well known brands on the market, none of
> > which are regularly mentioned as being hard to mount and suffering
> > side wall ruptures. Most of these tires also cost less.
>
> Despite the frequent rumblings on this newsgroup, I can't find many
> low-cost, decent quality tyres at my LBS. Once upon a time I bought
> Avocets from Sheldon since my LBS was unwilling to do business with
> Avocet. Since the advent of "Carbon-12" and the higher prices at Avocet,
> I haven't found a suitable replacement. Any suggestions?
>
> I rode the Avocet Duro (28-622) for general purpose and commuting, and I
> used the Avocet Criterium (23-622) on my race bike. Note that my
> dimensions are smaller than the advertised dimensions since Avocet
> seemed to exaggerate the tyre size back in the old days.

Why buy expensive Avocets when you can get basically the same tire sold
as the IRC Triathlon, available at Bike Nashbar and others for about
$13? I put 2000 miles on an IRC Triathlon 700x25 duro on the rear, which
is incredible mileage for me, and there is still rubber left.

--
Mike DeMicco >
(Remove the REMOVE_THIS from my email address to reply.)

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 04 May 2004 15:39:49 -0700, Mike DeMicco
> wrote:

>In article >, dvt >
>wrote:
>
>> wrote:
>> > How does Continental have such a following? I don't get it. What's
>> > the appeal? There are other well known brands on the market, none of
>> > which are regularly mentioned as being hard to mount and suffering
>> > side wall ruptures. Most of these tires also cost less.
>>
>> Despite the frequent rumblings on this newsgroup, I can't find many
>> low-cost, decent quality tyres at my LBS. Once upon a time I bought
>> Avocets from Sheldon since my LBS was unwilling to do business with
>> Avocet. Since the advent of "Carbon-12" and the higher prices at Avocet,
>> I haven't found a suitable replacement. Any suggestions?
>>
>> I rode the Avocet Duro (28-622) for general purpose and commuting, and I
>> used the Avocet Criterium (23-622) on my race bike. Note that my
>> dimensions are smaller than the advertised dimensions since Avocet
>> seemed to exaggerate the tyre size back in the old days.
>
>Why buy expensive Avocets when you can get basically the same tire sold
>as the IRC Triathlon, available at Bike Nashbar and others for about
>$13? I put 2000 miles on an IRC Triathlon 700x25 duro on the rear, which
>is incredible mileage for me, and there is still rubber left.


Doesn't tire mileage depend mostly on the type of braking you do? If
you do most of your rides in the country you can anticipate and coast
to a stop. In the city where there is a lot of traffic you are lucky
if you don't flat spot your tires the first week.

[Vincent Wilcox]

dvt wrote:
> wrote:
>
>> How does Continental have such a following? I don't get it. What's
>> the appeal? There are other well known brands on the market, none of
>> which are regularly mentioned as being hard to mount and suffering
>> side wall ruptures. Most of these tires also cost less.
>
>
> Despite the frequent rumblings on this newsgroup, I can't find many
> low-cost, decent quality tyres at my LBS. Once upon a time I bought
> Avocets from Sheldon since my LBS was unwilling to do business with
> Avocet. Since the advent of "Carbon-12" and the higher prices at Avocet,
> I haven't found a suitable replacement. Any suggestions?

Avocet don't supply directly to anyone in the UK and I ai'nt
a dealer mate... At least that is wot they informed me
when wot I contacted them in proper England and all that!
Any UK dealers out thar willing to bite the bullet or at
least get some IRC's in?

Gwan, gwan, gwan!

[David L. Johnson]

On Tue, 04 May 2004 16:56:30 -0400, dvt wrote:

> wrote:
>> How does Continental have such a following? I don't get it. What's
>> the appeal? There are other well known brands on the market, none of
>> which are regularly mentioned as being hard to mount and suffering
>> side wall ruptures. Most of these tires also cost less.
>
> Despite the frequent rumblings on this newsgroup, I can't find many
> low-cost, decent quality tyres at my LBS. Once upon a time I bought
> Avocets from Sheldon since my LBS was unwilling to do business with
> Avocet. Since the advent of "Carbon-12" and the higher prices at Avocet,
> I haven't found a suitable replacement. Any suggestions?

Look again. The price hikes seem to have been rolled back at the few
shops/internet sites that carry them.
>
> I rode the Avocet Duro (28-622) for general purpose and commuting, and I
> used the Avocet Criterium (23-622) on my race bike. Note that my
> dimensions are smaller than the advertised dimensions since Avocet
> seemed to exaggerate the tyre size back in the old days.

That has been rectified, and the tire width is close to the nominal size.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | And what if you track down these men and kill them, what if you
_`\(,_ | killed all of us? From every corner of Europe, hundreds,
(_)/ (_) | thousands would rise up to take our places. Even Nazis can't
kill that fast. -- Paul Henreid (Casablanca).

[David L. Johnson]

On Tue, 04 May 2004 20:40:10 -0400, dsr wrote:

> Doesn't tire mileage depend mostly on the type of braking you do?

No. Front tires rarely wear significantly on road bikes, and it is the
front wheel that does the vast majority of the stopping.

If
> you do most of your rides in the country you can anticipate and coast to
> a stop. In the city where there is a lot of traffic you are lucky if
> you don't flat spot your tires the first week.

Well, that's not what I'd consider as an indication of wear, but of damage.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | ...nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or
_`\(,_ | property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person
(_)/ (_) | within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. --
Fourteenth Amendment to the U. S. Constitution.

[Tim McNamara]

writes:

> On Tue, 04 May 2004 15:39:49 -0700, Mike DeMicco
> > wrote:
>
>>In article >, dvt
>
>>wrote:
>>
>>> wrote:
>>> > How does Continental have such a following? I don't get it.
>>> > What's the appeal? There are other well known brands on the
>>> > market, none of which are regularly mentioned as being hard to
>>> > mount and suffering side wall ruptures. Most of these tires
>>> > also cost less.
>>>
>>> Despite the frequent rumblings on this newsgroup, I can't find
>>> many low-cost, decent quality tyres at my LBS. Once upon a time I
>>> bought Avocets from Sheldon since my LBS was unwilling to do
>>> business with Avocet. Since the advent of "Carbon-12" and the
>>> higher prices at Avocet, I haven't found a suitable
>>> replacement. Any suggestions?

Carbon-12 is marketspeak for the same rubber they've been using, at
least according to prior discussions. Since most bike stuff is about
fashion and hype, and not about actual performance, I suppose Avocet
felt they had to come up with something to put on the side of the
tires that sounded impressive. I would have preferred something like
"Avocet Carbon SORT" (for "Same Old Rubber Technology"). Or "JRTDT"
for "Just Ride The Dang Things."

<snip>
>>
>>Why buy expensive Avocets when you can get basically the same tire
>>sold as the IRC Triathlon, available at Bike Nashbar and others for
>>about $13? I put 2000 miles on an IRC Triathlon 700x25 duro on the
>>rear, which is incredible mileage for me, and there is still rubber
>>left.

IIRC the Avocet tire uses a specific compound that IRC does not use in
the manufacture of other tires besides the Avocets. I don't know if
that's still true. Also, the Avocets have no siping or other
decorative faux tread features- AFAIK only some Michelin tires and the
Specialized FatBoy are "slicks" like the Avocets.

> Doesn't tire mileage depend mostly on the type of braking you do?
> If you do most of your rides in the country you can anticipate and
> coast to a stop. In the city where there is a lot of traffic you
> are lucky if you don't flat spot your tires the first week.

Riders who do long climbs find the rear tire wears out much quicker
than riders in flatter areas.

[David Reuteler]

Tim McNamara > wrote:
> Carbon-12 is marketspeak for the same rubber they've been using, at
> least according to prior discussions.

tim, you are so polite.

personally, i think it's about high time they started using Carbon-60 (aka
buckminsterfullerene) or perhaps Carbon-14 which has a half-life of 5,730
years.
--
david reuteler

[dvt]

> On Tue, 04 May 2004 16:56:30 -0400, dvt wrote:
>> Since the advent of "Carbon-12" and the higher prices at Avocet,
>> I haven't found a suitable replacement. Any suggestions?

David L. Johnson wrote:
> Look again. The price hikes seem to have been rolled back at the few
> shops/internet sites that carry them.

I just looked via google and qbike.com. the lowest price I found was $40
per tire with a free tube included. That was at:
http://www.worldclasscycles.com/clincher-tires2.htm

The price for the new Avocets doesn't seem to be dropping. Maybe I'm
looking in the wrong places.

I'd be interested in the old-style Avocets, but when I tried to place an
order with Harris Cyclery last year, it was apparently lost in the mail.
I couldn't seem to get through to anyone via email so I ended up getting
some tires at the LBS. I paid too much, got no improvement over the old
standard tires, and they're now worn out.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

[David Damerell]

Wort > wrote:
> wrote:
>>I think Continental are getting a bit unreliable in this respect. The last
>>GP300 I had - 23mm, kevlar bead - I could not fit even with tyre levers.
>>I've never had any difficulty with any tyre fitting before.
>The Conti fit may well depend on the wheel rim that you are mounting
>it on.

Indeed, but I've mounted earlier GP3000s on the same rim - an MA3. They're
tight, but not unfeasible. This one, conversely, is as I say the only tyre
I've ever been unable to fit.
--
David Damerell > Distortion Field!

[David Damerell]

Matt O'Toole > wrote:
>This seems to be a common complaint. Sidewall cuts and fabric coming apart
>seems to be a problem with Contis too. So why do people keep buying them?

I haven't had those problems, and they're the only quasi-slick tyres my
LBS carries.

Yes, yes, forward planning, I know...
--
David Damerell > Distortion Field!

[gwhite]

Tim McNamara > wrote in message >...
> writes:
>
> > How does Continental have such a following? I don't get it. What's
> > the appeal? There are other well known brands on the market, none
> > of which are regularly mentioned as being hard to mount and
> > suffering side wall ruptures. Most of these tires also cost less.
>
> Well, availability is an issue at least here in Minnesota. Avocet
> slicks are available in zero bike shops around here AFAIK- the only
> place that stocked (Osell's) them went out of business when the owner
> retired. The invert-tread car tire for bikes that Avocet makes is
> often available in ones or twos, but that tire is like riding uphill
> all day long.
>
> Continentals are available everywhere. IME the Ultra 2000 700 x 28
> works very well and lasts as long as an Avocet of the same size. They
> seem to mount just fine on an MA2. And I can get 'em easily, although
> they *are* $30 which seems excessive. The usual alternatives are
> Michelin's multicolored "silly-ca" rubber tires.
>
> Until Avocet becomes much more dealer-friendly, their market share
> will continue to be restricted. Not just their tires, but their
> computers as well. I haven't seen an Avocet computer for sale in a
> bike shop in years. I'm a little amazed that the Avocet brass hasn't
> figured this out for themselves.

Price counts too. I just ordered from Peter White. I got folding
Ultra 2k's for $28/tire. The Avocets were $35/tire. Ultimately that
was the little bit of tilt Conti needed for the sale.

I just wore out a pair of Conti Grand Sport tires, which are no longer
made. They seemed to have an excellent lifetime, and had infrequent
flats. They were also 240g for a true 25c tire -- which is about
right for training tires.

I have not yet used the U2k's, but you say they last well, which I
suppose I had anticipated, since the black tread Grand Prix's have a
relatively decent lifetime if one doesn't cut the sidewall. I presume
they didn't entirely reinvent the wheel, or tire in this case.

I really like the Avocet Carbon 12's -- they are excellent in pretty
much every way (some "pure" race tires are lighter). That is what is
on my racing wheels. For training or just tooling around, I am a
little more price sensitive. If the sidewalls cut I'll probably
conclude the $7/tire difference was not "worth it." But I have to
try...

As for Avocet's distribution and marketing, I think the company is
utterly clueless. Too bad, because the tires themselves are
outstanding.

[R15757]

g white wrote in part:

<< I got folding
Ultra 2k's for $28/tire >>


Let us know when the sidewalls spontaneously unravel.

Robert

[David L. Johnson]

On Wed, 05 May 2004 13:10:16 -0400, dvt wrote:

>> On Tue, 04 May 2004 16:56:30 -0400, dvt wrote:
>>> Since the advent of "Carbon-12" and the higher prices at Avocet,
>>> I haven't found a suitable replacement. Any suggestions?
>
> David L. Johnson wrote:
>> Look again. The price hikes seem to have been rolled back at the few
>> shops/internet sites that carry them.
>
> I just looked via google and qbike.com. the lowest price I found was $40
> per tire with a free tube included. That was at:
> http://www.worldclasscycles.com/clincher-tires2.htm
>
> The price for the new Avocets doesn't seem to be dropping. Maybe I'm
> looking in the wrong places.

You had mentioned Harris Cyclery later. But they have several Avocet
sizes at $24.95. (no, not kevlar bead, nor belt). If you are talking
$40, it seems you are looking at kevlar bead, which I doubt you get with a
$25 Conti, either. In fact, Sheldon has Conti 2000s for sale at $35, no
kevlar. Ah, kevlar for the same price.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Do not worry about your difficulties in mathematics, I can assure
_`\(,_ | you that mine are all greater. -- A. Einstein
(_)/ (_) |

[Jeff Wills]

Daniel Wilcox > wrote in message >...
<snip>
> >
> > I'm not familiar with that size.
>
> 20" 1 1/8

Not quite correct.
20 x 1 1/8" is roughly ISO size 451-28.
20 x 1.125" is 406-28. Continental Grand Prix only comes in the
latter size. Schwalbe Stelvio comes in both.

Jeff (getting picky again, I know)

[gwhite]

(R15757) wrote in message >...
> g white wrote in part:
>
> << I got folding
> Ultra 2k's for $28/tire >>
>
>
> Let us know when the sidewalls spontaneously unravel.


Is this a new feature? I've never had a "sidewall unravel," whatever
that is. That includes Contis and any other tire.

[R15757]

g. white wrote:

<< > Let us know when the sidewalls spontaneously unravel.

Is this a new feature? I've never had a "sidewall unravel," whatever
that is. That includes Contis and any other tire. >>


My kingdom for a digital camera.

[dvt]

David L. Johnson wrote:
> On Wed, 05 May 2004 13:10:16 -0400, dvt wrote:
>>The price for the new Avocets doesn't seem to be dropping. Maybe I'm
>>looking in the wrong places.

> You had mentioned Harris Cyclery later. But they have several Avocet
> sizes at $24.95.

Yeah, but I'm still waiting for the order I placed at about this time
last year. My credit card wasn't billed, so I'm not complaining too much.

> If you are talking
> $40, it seems you are looking at kevlar bead, which I doubt you get with a
> $25 Conti, either.

I was talking about the *new* Avocets (with or without Kevlar) for $40.
The *old* Avocet FasGrip tires are still available via Harris at $25,
but see the previous paragraph on that topic.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

[Vincent Wilcox]

Jeff Wills wrote:
>
> Not quite correct.
> 20 x 1 1/8" is roughly ISO size 451-28.
> 20 x 1.125" is 406-28. Continental Grand Prix only comes in the
> latter size. Schwalbe Stelvio comes in both.
>
> Jeff (getting picky again, I know)

Ok, but Continental describe their 406-28 as 20" 1 1/8 and Schwalbe
describe both 451-28 and 406-28 as 20" 1 1/8. Whats going on?

http://www.schwalbe.com/index.pl?bereich=produkte&einsatzbereich=2&produktgruppe=3&produkt=122
http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/de/en/continental/bicycle/themes/tires/race/grand_prix/grand_prix_en.html

[David L. Johnson]

On Thu, 06 May 2004 08:42:44 -0400, dvt wrote:

> David L. Johnson wrote:
>> On Wed, 05 May 2004 13:10:16 -0400, dvt wrote:
>>>The price for the new Avocets doesn't seem to be dropping. Maybe I'm
>>>looking in the wrong places.
>
>> You had mentioned Harris Cyclery later. But they have several Avocet
>> sizes at $24.95.
>
> Yeah, but I'm still waiting for the order I placed at about this time
> last year. My credit card wasn't billed, so I'm not complaining too much.

I've never had trouble ordering stuff from Sheldon. I*get most of my
tires there, as well as a bunch of other stuff. Good service, good
prices, rare parts found, and if it is out of stock, they let you know.

> I was talking about the *new* Avocets (with or without Kevlar) for $40.
> The *old* Avocet FasGrip tires are still available via Harris at $25,
> but see the previous paragraph on that topic.

I think those are not the old ones. I got what he said were the last of
his "Criterium" stock over a year ago.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | It doesn't get any easier, you just go faster. --Greg LeMond
_`\(,_ |
(_)/ (_) |

[Sheldon Brown]

David L. Johnson wrote:

>>>>The price for the new Avocets doesn't seem to be dropping. Maybe I'm
>>>>looking in the wrong places.

"dvt":

>>>You had mentioned Harris Cyclery later. But they have several Avocet
>>>sizes at $24.95.
>>
>>Yeah, but I'm still waiting for the order I placed at about this time
>>last year. My credit card wasn't billed, so I'm not complaining too much.
>
David:
>
> I've never had trouble ordering stuff from Sheldon. I get most of my
> tires there, as well as a bunch of other stuff. Good service, good
> prices, rare parts found, and if it is out of stock, they let you know.
>
Thanckx for the plug. Avocet FasGrip tires are great, but getting them
from Avocet is always a major hemorrhoid. They can only be ordered from
Avocet, there are no independent distributors, so when Avocet is out of
'em, there's no alternate source. Avocet's high minimum-order levels
also preclude onesies and twosies orders.

We did finally receive a very large shipment last week, and back orders
should have been taken care of by now. Our stock is pretty good at the
moment.
>
>>I was talking about the *new* Avocets (with or without Kevlar) for $40.
>>The *old* Avocet FasGrip tires are still available via Harris at $25,
>>but see the previous paragraph on that topic.
>
> I think those are not the old ones. I got what he said were the last of
> his "Criterium" stock over a year ago.
>
Right, the tan-wall tires are now all gone. The new ones are uglier,
but don't seem inferior in any other respect.

Sheldon "Insert Nickname Here" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

[Jeff Wills]

Vincent Wilcox > wrote in message >...
> Jeff Wills wrote:
> >
> > Not quite correct.
> > 20 x 1 1/8" is roughly ISO size 451-28.
> > 20 x 1.125" is 406-28. Continental Grand Prix only comes in the
> > latter size. Schwalbe Stelvio comes in both.
> >
> > Jeff (getting picky again, I know)
>
> Ok, but Continental describe their 406-28 as 20" 1 1/8 and Schwalbe
> describe both 451-28 and 406-28 as 20" 1 1/8. Whats going on?
>
> http://www.schwalbe.com/index.pl?bereich=produkte&einsatzbereich=2&produktgruppe=3&produkt=122
> http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/de/en/continental/bicycle/themes/tires/race/grand_prix/grand_prix_en.html

Disagreements about nomenclature is what's going on. See
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tire_sizing.html#fractiondecimal
Continental's 100% wrong. Schwalbe's only 50% wrong.
Now do you know why I like the ISO/ETRTO tire size designations?

Jeff

[dvt]

David L. Johnson wrote:

> On Thu, 06 May 2004 08:42:44 -0400, dvt wrote:

>>David L. Johnson wrote:
>>>You had mentioned Harris Cyclery later. But they have several Avocet
>>>sizes at $24.95.

>>Yeah, but I'm still waiting for the order I placed at about this time
>>last year. My credit card wasn't billed, so I'm not complaining too much.

> I've never had trouble ordering stuff from Sheldon. I get most of my
> tires there, as well as a bunch of other stuff. Good service, good
> prices, rare parts found, and if it is out of stock, they let you know.

I agree with much of that. I suspect my experience was an anomaly.
There's another thread on this forum regarding blacklisted domains; I
guess it's possible that something of that nature occured with my messages.

>>I was talking about the *new* Avocets (with or without Kevlar) for $40.
>>The *old* Avocet FasGrip tires are still available via Harris at $25,
>>but see the previous paragraph on that topic.

> I think those are not the old ones. I got what he said were the last of
> his "Criterium" stock over a year ago.

I just read it again. I think you are correct, David, and I was wrong.
Sheldon, if you're still looking at this thread, I was confused because
this line appears next to the 700x25C non-Kevlar Avocet: "The newer
production is all black, older production has tan sidewalls." (URL:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/tires/622.html) I had (apparently
incorrectly) interpreted this to mean that the non-Kevlar Avocets were
the old version with tan sidewalls.

Summary: I guess I should try again this year. At $25 a pop, it looks
like a reasonable price on a good tire.

Thanks to both of you for helping me out.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

[bfd]

"dvt" > wrote in message
...
> David L. Johnson wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 06 May 2004 08:42:44 -0400, dvt wrote:
>
> >>David L. Johnson wrote:
> >>>You had mentioned Harris Cyclery later. But they have several Avocet
> >>>sizes at $24.95.
>
> >>Yeah, but I'm still waiting for the order I placed at about this time
> >>last year. My credit card wasn't billed, so I'm not complaining too
much.
>
> > I've never had trouble ordering stuff from Sheldon. I get most of my
> > tires there, as well as a bunch of other stuff. Good service, good
> > prices, rare parts found, and if it is out of stock, they let you know.
>
> I agree with much of that. I suspect my experience was an anomaly.
> There's another thread on this forum regarding blacklisted domains; I
> guess it's possible that something of that nature occured with my
messages.
>
> >>I was talking about the *new* Avocets (with or without Kevlar) for $40.
> >>The *old* Avocet FasGrip tires are still available via Harris at $25,
> >>but see the previous paragraph on that topic.
>
> > I think those are not the old ones. I got what he said were the last of
> > his "Criterium" stock over a year ago.
>
> I just read it again. I think you are correct, David, and I was wrong.
> Sheldon, if you're still looking at this thread, I was confused because
> this line appears next to the 700x25C non-Kevlar Avocet: "The newer
> production is all black, older production has tan sidewalls." (URL:
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/tires/622.html) I had (apparently
> incorrectly) interpreted this to mean that the non-Kevlar Avocets were
> the old version with tan sidewalls.
>
> Summary: I guess I should try again this year. At $25 a pop, it looks
> like a reasonable price on a good tire.
>
If you're looking for the older 700x28 (actually measure 24-26mm wide)
Avocet Fasgrip 20 tires (black with tan sidewalls), it appears that he White
has the Road 20 for $23 ($27 if you want Kevlar) here:

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/roadtires.htm

[Chalo]

Sheldon Brown > wrote:

> Right, the tan-wall tires are now all gone. The new ones are uglier,
> but don't seem inferior in any other respect.

When I lived in Central Texas, my main beef with Avocets was the tan
wall, which would quickly grow crispy and dandruffy from UV damage.
Even when I was putting in regular 300-mile weeks, most times I had to
replace tires (any tires) was because the sidewalls were fraying.

It frustrated me that it took so long for manufacturers to add some UV
protection in the form of black pigment. Since that time, though, I
have bever seen a black skinwall ruined from sidewall exposure alone.
You may consider them ugly, but I think they look a lot better than a
leprous tan skinwall.

I like the clean profile that black skinwalls give a bike, and I
especially like the Euro-market kind with a reflective sidwall stripe.
The unpigmented kind of tire always struck me as unfinished-looking.
I like to see bare metal and bare wood, but somehow bare latex and
nylon don't convey the same purity to me.

Chalo Colina