Building Wheels - equipment needs

[Roger Zoul]

Okay, let's say I'm want to build my own wheels (I'm a 240 lbs riding whose
had problems with popping spokes) and also begin the process of freeing
myself of dependance on the bicycle shop.

I've been reading sheldon brown's website and I've ordered "The Bicycle
Wheel"

I want to start with decent stuff, so I'm considering these things (not all
just for wheel building)

http://tinyurl.com/24m2l (a repair stand) <== I've been wanting this

http://tinyurl.com/37ewh (a truing stand)

http://tinyurl.com/2l2n3 (a tensiometer) <== I'd like to spend way less on
this part

http://tinyurl.com/2ar66 (a spoke wrench set)

http://tinyurl.com/ysaln (a dishing tool)

Is this good stuff for the price?

[EdDyMeRkX]

If you are ordering from Performance and are spending over $50, use this coupon
number; 6000381. You will get an addition 20% off (even sale items). Coupon
number is good till 6-15-2004

[Rick Onanian]

On 01 Jun 2004 13:02:33 GMT, (EdDyMeRkX) wrote:
>If you are ordering from Performance and are spending over $50, use this coupon
>number; 6000381. You will get an addition 20% off (even sale items). Coupon
>number is good till 6-15-2004

In fact, if you order from any online or MO retailer, google for
coupon codes...might as well save some money for five minutes
googling.
--
Rick Onanian

[daveornee]

Roger Zoul wrote:
> Okay, let's say I'm want to build my own wheels (I'm a 240 lbs riding
> whose had problems with popping spokes) and also begin the process of
> freeing myself of dependance on the bicycle shop.
> I've been reading sheldon brown's website and I've ordered "The
> Bicycle Wheel"
> I want to start with decent stuff, so I'm considering these things (not
> all just for wheel building)
> http://tinyurl.com/24m2lhttp://tinyurl.com/24m2l (a repair stand) <==
> I've been wanting this
> http://tinyurl.com/37ewhhttp://tinyurl.com/37ewh (a truing stand)
> http://tinyurl.com/2l2n3http://tinyurl.com/2l2n3 (a tensiometer) <== I'd
> like to spend way less on this part
> http://tinyurl.com/2ar66http://tinyurl.com/2ar66 (a spoke wrench set)
> http://tinyurl.com/ysalnhttp://tinyurl.com/ysaln (a dishing tool)
> Is this good stuff for the price?


I like the Park Tension meter ergonomics, but I found it to be les
useful and repeatable than the Wheelsmith unit


-

[Roger Zoul]

EdDyMeRkX wrote:
:: If you are ordering from Performance and are spending over $50, use
:: this coupon number; 6000381. You will get an addition 20% off (even
:: sale items). Coupon number is good till 6-15-2004

Good Stuff! Thanks.

[Rick Onanian]

On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 08:57:22 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
> wrote:
>I want to start with decent stuff, so I'm considering these things (not all
>just for wheel building)
>
>http://tinyurl.com/24m2l (a repair stand) <== I've been wanting this
>http://tinyurl.com/37ewh (a truing stand)
>http://tinyurl.com/2l2n3 (a tensiometer) <== I'd like to spend way less on
>this part

Google groups for many, many discussions about these items.

>http://tinyurl.com/2ar66 (a spoke wrench set)

These look like very nice spoke wrenches

>http://tinyurl.com/ysaln (a dishing tool)

Isn't there a "deluxe" version that's only slightly more money, but
has more functionality?

>Is this good stuff for the price?

The truing stand definitely looks like a great price, but make sure
that it's the truing stand you'd want.
--
Rick Onanian

[Top Sirloin]

Roger Zoul wrote:
> Okay, let's say I'm want to build my own wheels (I'm a 240 lbs riding whose
> had problems with popping spokes) and also begin the process of freeing
> myself of dependance on the bicycle shop.

Don't forget the Velocity Deep-V's, some 32 hole
hubs and butted spokes.

--
Scott Johnson / scottjohnson at kc dot rr dot com

[John Everett]

On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 08:57:22 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
> wrote:

>Okay, let's say I'm want to build my own wheels (I'm a 240 lbs riding whose
>had problems with popping spokes) and also begin the process of freeing
>myself of dependance on the bicycle shop.
>
>I've been reading sheldon brown's website and I've ordered "The Bicycle
>Wheel"
>
>I want to start with decent stuff, so I'm considering these things (not all
>just for wheel building)
>
>http://tinyurl.com/24m2l (a repair stand) <== I've been wanting this
>
>http://tinyurl.com/37ewh (a truing stand)
>
>http://tinyurl.com/2l2n3 (a tensiometer) <== I'd like to spend way less on
>this part
>
>http://tinyurl.com/2ar66 (a spoke wrench set)
>
>http://tinyurl.com/ysaln (a dishing tool)

While most these things qualify as "nice to haves", I've built a few
wheels over the years and my only special tool is a spoke wrench.


jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

[Roger Zoul]

John Everett wrote:
:: On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 08:57:22 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
:: > wrote:
::
::: Okay, let's say I'm want to build my own wheels (I'm a 240 lbs
::: riding whose had problems with popping spokes) and also begin the
::: process of freeing myself of dependance on the bicycle shop.
:::
::: I've been reading sheldon brown's website and I've ordered "The
::: Bicycle Wheel"
:::
::: I want to start with decent stuff, so I'm considering these things
::: (not all just for wheel building)
:::
::: http://tinyurl.com/24m2l (a repair stand) <== I've been wanting this
:::
::: http://tinyurl.com/37ewh (a truing stand)
:::
::: http://tinyurl.com/2l2n3 (a tensiometer) <== I'd like to spend way
::: less on this part
:::
::: http://tinyurl.com/2ar66 (a spoke wrench set)
:::
::: http://tinyurl.com/ysaln (a dishing tool)
::
:: While most these things qualify as "nice to haves", I've built a few
:: wheels over the years and my only special tool is a spoke wrench.

Wow?

[Roger Zoul]

Rick Onanian wrote:
:: On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 08:57:22 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
:: > wrote:
::: I want to start with decent stuff, so I'm considering these things
::: (not all just for wheel building)
:::
::: http://tinyurl.com/24m2l (a repair stand) <== I've been wanting this
::: http://tinyurl.com/37ewh (a truing stand)
::: http://tinyurl.com/2l2n3 (a tensiometer) <== I'd like to spend way
::: less on this part
::
:: Google groups for many, many discussions about these items.

I decided to go with the Ultimate Pro Repair Stand and Ultimate Pro Truing
Stand. Performance has them as a combo for $200, and with a 20% discount --
good deal. Plus, supposedly the truing stand eliminates the need for a
dishing tool.

::
::: http://tinyurl.com/2ar66 (a spoke wrench set)
::
:: These look like very nice spoke wrenches
::
::: http://tinyurl.com/ysaln (a dishing tool)
::
:: Isn't there a "deluxe" version that's only slightly more money, but
:: has more functionality?
::
::: Is this good stuff for the price?
::
:: The truing stand definitely looks like a great price, but make sure
:: that it's the truing stand you'd want.
:: --
:: Rick Onanian

[[email protected]]

Roger Zoul writes:

> I decided to go with the Ultimate Pro Repair Stand and Ultimate Pro
> Truing Stand. Performance has them as a combo for $200, and with a
> 20% discount -- good deal. Plus, supposedly the truing stand
> eliminates the need for a dishing tool.

From what you write, I take it you haven't built many wheels if any.
I don't think that is a good position from which to buy wheel building
equipment because you don't know what is essential or what YOU in
particular need. As others have said, a spoke wrench is possibly the
only tool you need. I agree with that because that is how I started
and only later acquired a crummy truing stand and centering bridge
(dishing tool) from people who had them and gave them to me so I could
build their wheels more easily. I volunteered.

The dishing tool is not essential but one of the better items to have.
Stands with centering probes are not as easily used and are not as
accurate. The standard Campagnolo dishing tool has easy to see double
differential measurement which makes it a highly precise yet simply
readable tool good for a few 0.001" precision.

Jobst Brandt

[Roger Zoul]

wrote:
:: Roger Zoul writes:
::
::: I decided to go with the Ultimate Pro Repair Stand and Ultimate Pro
::: Truing Stand. Performance has them as a combo for $200, and with a
::: 20% discount -- good deal. Plus, supposedly the truing stand
::: eliminates the need for a dishing tool.
::
:: From what you write, I take it you haven't built many wheels if any.

None at all...I'm starting and trying to learn...I was planning on start
with a low-priced wheel first....and I'm trying to build a wheel that will
hold up under my weight (per the "Breaking Spokes" thread) and let me be
free of the LBS for this stuff.

:: I don't think that is a good position from which to buy wheel
:: building equipment because you don't know what is essential or what
:: YOU in particular need. As others have said, a spoke wrench is
:: possibly the only tool you need. I agree with that because that is
:: how I started and only later acquired a crummy truing stand and
:: centering bridge (dishing tool) from people who had them and gave
:: them to me so I could build their wheels more easily. I volunteered.
::
:: The dishing tool is not essential but one of the better items to
:: have. Stands with centering probes are not as easily used and are
:: not as accurate. The standard Campagnolo dishing tool has easy to
:: see double differential measurement which makes it a highly precise
:: yet simply readable tool good for a few 0.001" precision.

So, if I decide to build my own wheel, you're suggesting I go with only a
spoke wrench? Does your book (which I have coming) explain how to do it
with only a spoke wrench? I'm only too happy to not spend money, even
though I'd enjoy having that stand for general bike reasons, not just to
build wheels....

Still, I don't get how you true a wheel without a stand....and how do you
check the dish without the tool? Apparently, one can make reasonable
guesstimates?

[[email protected]]

Roger Zoul writes:

>> From what you write, I take it you haven't built many wheels if any.

> None at all... I'm starting and trying to learn... I was planning on
> start with a low-priced wheel first... and I'm trying to build a
> wheel that will hold up under my weight (per the "Breaking Spokes"
> thread) and let me be free of the LBS for this stuff.

>> I don't think that is a good position from which to buy wheel
>> building equipment because you don't know what is essential or what
>> YOU in particular need. As others have said, a spoke wrench is
>> possibly the only tool you need. I agree with that because that is
>> how I started and only later acquired a crummy truing stand and
>> centering bridge (dishing tool) from people who had them and gave
>> them to me so I could build their wheels more easily. I
>> volunteered.

>> The dishing tool is not essential but one of the better items to
>> have. Stands with centering probes are not as easily used and are
>> not as accurate. The standard Campagnolo dishing tool has easy to
>> see double differential measurement which makes it a highly precise
>> yet simply readable tool good for a few 0.001" precision.

> So, if I decide to build my own wheel, you're suggesting I go with
> only a spoke wrench?

Not at all. I suggest you build a few and then realize what it is you
need or prefer. If you have the stuff, I can't say which parts you
don't need but I'm not sure you have the best for your needs. Many
truing stands have useless gimmicks that do no good and others are
hard to use in the position you work in. For instance, the truing
stand I have assumes it is being used on a (high) table at chest level
since the probes are in the lower quadrant of the wheel. I use the
stand on the floor and look down on it. That isn't what I would buy
or construct, but then I can get along without a lot of gimmicks. It
also is not designed to true a wheel with a tire on it and since I do
repairs on it, that is also inconvenient because the probes are hard
to make not drag on the tire.

> Does your book (which I have coming) explain how to do it with only
> a spoke wrench? I'm only too happy to not spend money, even though
> I'd enjoy having that stand for general bike reasons, not just to
> build wheels...

Of course and the trick there is to use your bicycle frame. That
isn't ideal by any means but you get the job done and can asses how
you would like to do it and buy appropriate equipment.

> Still, I don't get how you true a wheel without a stand... and how
> do you check the dish without the tool? Apparently, one can make
> reasonable guesstimates?

Use the bicycle using the brake pad on one side to true and flip the
wheel over to get dish. Lots of folks have done this and still do.

Jobst Brandt

[Benjamin Lewis]

Roger Zoul wrote:

> Still, I don't get how you true a wheel without a stand....and how do you
> check the dish without the tool? Apparently, one can make reasonable
> guesstimates?

You can use your bike as a rudimentary truing stand, with the brake blocks
as indicators. Check the dish by flipping the wheel around.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Gravity is a myth, the Earth sucks.

[Ted Bennett]

"Roger Zoul" > wrote:

> So, if I decide to build my own wheel, you're suggesting I go with only a
> spoke wrench? Does your book (which I have coming) explain how to do it
> with only a spoke wrench? I'm only too happy to not spend money, even
> though I'd enjoy having that stand for general bike reasons, not just to
> build wheels....
>
> Still, I don't get how you true a wheel without a stand....and how do you
> check the dish without the tool? Apparently, one can make reasonable
> guesstimates?


A bicycle frame or fork, which I assume you have, can be used in place
of a truing stand. Use clothespins, wire, or pencils mounted on the
frame/fork tubes as indicators for truing side to side and runout.

Instead of a dishing tool, simply reverse the wheel left for right and
adjust until it's symmetrical.

This approach will yield excellent wheels as long as you are patient and
understand what you are doing. It isn't all that difficult and is quite
satisfying.

If you are building or truing more than a few wheels, the stand and
dishing tool will make the job go quicker, and it will impress onlookers
more than the low-buck method. But they are not necessary.

Adjust tension by comparing with a good wheel, by comparing the sound of
a plucked spoke. Not all that accurate, but it will get you in the
ballpark.

Don't forget to stress relieve the spokes. This step is vital if you
wheels are to last. You probably can't do this well with bare hands, so
wear leather gloves or some such.

Happy wheelbuilding, and let us know how they come out.




The following added for automatic email harvesters!


--
Ted Bennett
Portland OR

[Tim McNamara]

"Roger Zoul" > writes:

> None at all...I'm starting and trying to learn...I was planning on
> start with a low-priced wheel first....and I'm trying to build a
> wheel that will hold up under my weight (per the "Breaking Spokes"
> thread) and let me be free of the LBS for this stuff.

Taaa-daaah! There is an excellent set of reasons to learn how to
build wheels, plus the personal satisfaction. I enjoy wheel building
and I hope you do too. After you've built a few and are familiar with
the steps involved, it is a quiet and pleasant endeavour- probably not
unlike knitting or tying flies.

> So, if I decide to build my own wheel, you're suggesting I go with
> only a spoke wrench? Does your book (which I have coming) explain
> how to do it with only a spoke wrench? I'm only too happy to not
> spend money, even though I'd enjoy having that stand for general
> bike reasons, not just to build wheels....
>
> Still, I don't get how you true a wheel without a stand....and how
> do you check the dish without the tool? Apparently, one can make
> reasonable guesstimates?

Well, you can use your bike as a truing stand. I built several sets
of wheels that way. A truing stand is less cumbersome, to be sure,
but using a bike works fine. A dishing tool can be homemade and be
quite accurate.

Last summer in France in a town called Fougeres, I saw a bike
mechanic with a portable pair of truing stands he'd made out of the
fork and rear triangle of an old bike. They clamped into a vice and
away he went. It seemed plenty accurate. So that's another option-
find an old frame and cut it apart, using the fork and rear triangle
as truing stands. Of course, for the wheel to be dished correctly
these items have to also be in correct alignment... ;-)

[Jeff Wills]

<snip>
> A bicycle frame or fork, which I assume you have, can be used in place
> of a truing stand. Use clothespins, wire, or pencils mounted on the
> frame/fork tubes as indicators for truing side to side and runout.
>

As Jobst, Ben, and Ted said, it's possible to build excellent wheels
with only a spoke wrench and a bike frame for a truing stand. I've
built many wheels this way. I finally bought a truing stand for home
use when I found a somewhat decrepit stand at a swap meet for $10.

Good tools help you build your confidence without having to deal with
improvised solutions. Once you've *got* that confidence, you can
improvise until the cows come home. I learned while working at a bike
shop- ask around and see if you can bribe a *good* mechanic into
showing you the basics. A good, patient mechanic is worth his (or her)
weight in beer.

Jobst's book is excellent on several levels, including instructions.
Since I started practicing his techniques, I haven't broken a single
spoke.

Jeff

[John Everett]

On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 15:35:13 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
> wrote:

>John Everett wrote:
>::
>:: While most these things qualify as "nice to haves", I've built a few
>:: wheels over the years and my only special tool is a spoke wrench.
>
>Wow?
>

From some of my postings over the years as found via google groups:

From 2003-05-07:

"I've build a number of wheels and I don't own a truing stand nor
dishing tool. I build and true rears in the rear triangle of a bike
and fronts in an old fork which I mount in my work stand by the
steerer tube."

From 1997/12/30:

"At risk of drawing flames, let me suggest that a flat surface and a
machinists rule (or probably just a regular ruler) does an adequate
job as a dishing tool. Put the wheel (skewer removed) on the flat
surface with one section of the rim in contact with the surface.
Measure the height of the rim 180° opposite, then flip it over and
remeasure. If the measurements are equal (assuming an equal amount of
axle extends beyond the locknut on each side, and the rim is running
true), the wheel is properly dished.


jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

[Jim Flom]

> wrote ...
>
> Not at all. I suggest you build a few and then realize what it is you
> need or prefer. If you have the stuff, I can't say which parts you
> don't need but I'm not sure you have the best for your needs. Many
> truing stands have useless gimmicks that do no good and others are
> hard to use in the position you work in.

Have you ever thought about making Jobst Brandt Designer wheeling building
tools in cooperation with park or someone? I bet you could make a whole
bunch of money making tools people can use.

JF

[[email protected]]

Jim Flom writes:

>> Not at all. I suggest you build a few and then realize what it is
>> you need or prefer. If you have the stuff, I can't say which parts
>> you don't need but I'm not sure you have the best for your needs.
>> Many truing stands have useless gimmicks that do no good and others
>> are hard to use in the position you work in.

> Have you ever thought about making Jobst Brandt Designer wheeling
> building tools in cooperation with park or someone? I bet you could
> make a whole bunch of money making tools people can use.

The only tool I designed was the tensiometer shown in the book and
that instrument, built by Avocet, is "out of print" because at the
time few people saw a need for it and those who used it did not
appreciate the features it had. It supports the spoke from the same
side as the measurement so spoke thickness does not enter the
measurement, it can be zeroed as it is applied to the spoke to be
measured, it uses ball bearing spoke support so that cosine error of
spoke deflection does not cause frictional errors, it is a one handed
instrument using a high precision dial gauge so that the test load can
be small and not alter existing tension.

DT sold most of the production run before deciding to make their own
in Switzerland. Their instrument does not encompass all of these
features.

Jobst Brandt

[Roger Zoul]

wrote:
:: Jim Flom writes:
::
:::: Not at all. I suggest you build a few and then realize what it is
:::: you need or prefer. If you have the stuff, I can't say which parts
:::: you don't need but I'm not sure you have the best for your needs.
:::: Many truing stands have useless gimmicks that do no good and others
:::: are hard to use in the position you work in.
::
::: Have you ever thought about making Jobst Brandt Designer wheeling
::: building tools in cooperation with park or someone? I bet you could
::: make a whole bunch of money making tools people can use.
::
:: The only tool I designed was the tensiometer shown in the book and
:: that instrument, built by Avocet, is "out of print" because at the
:: time few people saw a need for it and those who used it did not
:: appreciate the features it had. It supports the spoke from the same
:: side as the measurement so spoke thickness does not enter the
:: measurement, it can be zeroed as it is applied to the spoke to be
:: measured, it uses ball bearing spoke support so that cosine error of
:: spoke deflection does not cause frictional errors, it is a one handed
:: instrument using a high precision dial gauge so that the test load
:: can be small and not alter existing tension.
::
:: DT sold most of the production run before deciding to make their own
:: in Switzerland. Their instrument does not encompass all of these
:: features.
::

Sure sounds like opportunity to me, Jobst....

[[email protected]]

Roger Zoul > writes:

>>>> Not at all. I suggest you build a few and then realize what it
>>>> is you need or prefer. If you have the stuff, I can't say which
>>>> parts you don't need but I'm not sure you have the best for your
>>>> needs. Many truing stands have useless gimmicks that do no good
>>>> and others are hard to use in the position you work in.

>>> Have you ever thought about making Jobst Brandt Designer wheeling
>>> building tools in cooperation with park or someone? I bet you
>>> could make a whole bunch of money making tools people can use.

>> The only tool I designed was the tensiometer shown in the book and
>> that instrument, built by Avocet, is "out of print" because at the
>> time few people saw a need for it and those who used it did not
>> appreciate the features it had. It supports the spoke from the
>> same side as the measurement so spoke thickness does not enter the
>> measurement, it can be zeroed as it is applied to the spoke to be
>> measured, it uses ball bearing spoke support so that cosine error
>> of spoke deflection does not cause frictional errors, it is a one
>> handed instrument using a high precision dial gauge so that the
>> test load can be small and not alter existing tension.

>> DT sold most of the production run before deciding to make their
>> own in Switzerland. Their instrument does not encompass all of
>> these features.

> Sure sounds like opportunity to me, Jobst....

You can do it. I have made the drawings available to many people who
wanted to build their own. I haven't heard from any of these people
that built one. In fact, I have talked to bicycle tool people at
InterBike and got yawns and "I hear my mother calling me for lunch"
comments and the like. The tensiometer is dead as a product.

Jobst Brandt

[Chalo]

"Roger Zoul" > wrote:

> http://tinyurl.com/37ewh (a truing stand)

Cheap. Better than using an upside-down bike frame, probably. I say
yes.

> http://tinyurl.com/2l2n3 (a tensiometer) <== I'd like to spend way less

You don't need it. Build a few and see if you still want one. If you
do, it won't seem so expensive.

> http://tinyurl.com/2ar66 (a spoke wrench set)

Unless you'll be wrenching on other folks bikes with OEM wheels, just
get the black Park wrench. Var makes a nicer one, but getting good
tension with the Park wrench will enforce discipline vis-a-vis nipple
lubrication and proper wrench seating.

> http://tinyurl.com/ysaln (a dishing tool)

Cheap. Sorta junky, but it'll do. You can build perfect wheels
without this tool if you are motivated to do so. I always use a
dishing tool when one is available, though.

> Is this good stuff for the price?

The prices are good, and the stuff is plenty good enough. Before you
go buying a tensiometer or a DT Speicheschlüssel or the like, you'd
best know whether or not you consider building wheels to be worthy
entertainment. If so, why not afford yourself all the mod cons? If
not, then why bother?

Oh, you forgot one thing-- a nipple driver:
http://www.bicycletool.com/wheelt.html#anchor1886478
It amplifies wheelbuilding enjoyment (Radgebäudegenuß) tremendously.

Chalo Colina

[ZeeExSixAre]

> You can do it. I have made the drawings available to many people who
> wanted to build their own. I haven't heard from any of these people
> that built one. In fact, I have talked to bicycle tool people at
> InterBike and got yawns and "I hear my mother calling me for lunch"
> comments and the like. The tensiometer is dead as a product.


You need to color it blue and write "Park Tools" in white letters on it.
Then it will sell...

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

[ZeeExSixAre]

> Is this good stuff for the price?


Thank God I work at a bike shop and can use the tools there ;)

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

[[email protected]]

Chalo Colina writes:

> Oh, you forgot one thing-- a nipple driver:

http://www.bicycletool.com/wheelt.html#anchor1886478

> It amplifies wheelbuilding enjoyment (Radgeb?udegenu?) tremendously.

That doesn't translate well. Rad-geb?ude-genu? uses the wrong kind of
building, one that has doors and windows. You need an idiomatic
translator. The appropriate word would be Rad-bau-genu?.

Just the same next to a spoke wrench, this is my next most important
tool and is one that is inexpensive for what it does. I still like
the VAR one size spoke wrench because it can be twirled between
fingers, is always the right size, and can engage the spoke nipple
from the side. Spoke wrenches that drive four corners of a spoke
nipple are predicated on not lubricating the rim to spoke nipple
interface, a bad thing to do in the first place. A flat jawed wrench
is enough to twist off any spoke I have encountered, but only if the
rime seats are oiled.

Jobst Brandt

[Chalo]

wrote:
>
> Chalo Colina writes:
> >
> > Oh, you forgot one thing-- a nipple driver:
> >
> > http://www.bicycletool.com/wheelt.html#anchor1886478
> >
> > It amplifies wheelbuilding enjoyment (Radgeb?udegenu?) tremendously.
>
> That doesn't translate well. Rad-geb?ude-genu? uses the wrong kind of
> building, one that has doors and windows. You need an idiomatic
> translator. The appropriate word would be Rad-bau-genu?.

Thanks. I don't sprech the Deutsch and don't intend to acquire that
skill, but I thought I'd toss that in to keep the Speicheschlüssel (or
is it Nippelschlüssel?) company.

Chalo Colina

[Christian Odenthal]

(Chalo) writes:


[...]

> Thanks. I don't sprech the Deutsch and don't intend to acquire that
> skill, but I thought I'd toss that in to keep the Speicheschlüssel (or
> is it Nippelschlüssel?) company.

Actually it's neither "Speichenschlüssel" nor "Nippelschlüssel" but
"Speichennippelspanner" or for short "Nippelspanner". Just as a starter
in case you change your mind and would like to acquire the skill
"Deutsch zu sprechen" sometime...

Christian