Motorized bikes in the classics

[Anton Berlin]

I am going to side with the 'this may be happening' camp - Here's why
I think it's possible

The crowds drown out the noise of the motor.

An extra few pounds or kilos on a bike really wouldn't make much of a
difference in a flat race (see analytical cycling)

Tactics would allow the user just the advantage to blow up his
opponents at critical times in the race. They have to expel excess
energy to counter the assisted move. Even a few of these moves would
be enough to make a difference in top level riders.

Lastly he could use the assist to solo home in the last few kilos or
to motor pace himself up to speed and then milk that speed for some
time, then repeat. No rider could keep up with.

Watching the spring classics I was amazed at Cancellera's superhuman
efforts but now I am thinking there's some doubt.

I expect that winner's bikes will be inspected and even bikes being
changed out at critical times will now be examined as well.

Is there any depth these guys won't stoop to in order to win a race?

It almost makes Armstrong's decades long record of cheating seem
admirable.

[Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.]

On May 31, 10:18*am, Anton Berlin > wrote:
> I am going to side with the 'this may be happening' camp - *Here's why
> I think it's possible
>
> The crowds drown out the noise of the motor.
>
> An extra few pounds or kilos on a bike really wouldn't make much of a
> difference in a flat race (see analytical cycling)
>
> Tactics would allow the user just the advantage to blow up his
> opponents at critical times in the race. *They have to expel excess
> energy to counter the assisted move. *Even a few of these moves would
> be enough to make a difference in top level riders.
>
> Lastly he could use the assist to solo home in the last few kilos or
> to motor pace himself up to speed and then milk that speed for some
> time, then repeat. No rider could keep up with.
>
> Watching the spring classics I was amazed at Cancellera's superhuman
> efforts but now I am thinking there's some doubt.
>
> I expect that winner's bikes will be inspected and even bikes being
> changed out at critical times will now be examined as well.
>
> Is there any depth these guys won't stoop to in order to win a race?
>
> It almost makes Armstrong's decades long record of cheating seem
> admirable.




Dumbass -

Did you check out the video links in the "motorized doping" thread?

If the analysis is correct, he used the "assist" to get away. It looks
plausible.

If it's truem, there's only one penalty: lifetime ban. For the rider
and any others complicit. This goes way beyond doping.

thanks,

Fred. presented by Gringioni.

[dave a]

On 5/31/2010 10:18 AM, Anton Berlin wrote:
> I am going to side with the 'this may be happening' camp - Here's why
> I think it's possible
>
> The crowds drown out the noise of the motor.
>
> An extra few pounds or kilos on a bike really wouldn't make much of a
> difference in a flat race (see analytical cycling)
>
> Tactics would allow the user just the advantage to blow up his
> opponents at critical times in the race. They have to expel excess
> energy to counter the assisted move. Even a few of these moves would
> be enough to make a difference in top level riders.
>
> Lastly he could use the assist to solo home in the last few kilos or
> to motor pace himself up to speed and then milk that speed for some
> time, then repeat. No rider could keep up with.
>
> Watching the spring classics I was amazed at Cancellera's superhuman
> efforts but now I am thinking there's some doubt.
>
> I expect that winner's bikes will be inspected and even bikes being
> changed out at critical times will now be examined as well.
>
> Is there any depth these guys won't stoop to in order to win a race?
>
> It almost makes Armstrong's decades long record of cheating seem
> admirable.

Cancellera's move in PR was on a flat paved section with no crowds.
Maybe he waited until he was clear of the break to punch the turbo
button so the motor wouldn't be heard.

[Kyle Legate[_4_]]

On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:30:52 -0700, dave a wrote:

>
> Cancellera's move in PR was on a flat paved section with no crowds.
> Maybe he waited until he was clear of the break to punch the turbo
> button so the motor wouldn't be heard.

I see Cancellera's been singled out for the rbr irrational witch hunt.
And a new record, I think. Tried and convicted in two posts, and I almost
missed it.

[Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.]

On May 31, 12:21*pm, Kyle Legate > wrote:
> On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:30:52 -0700, dave a wrote:
>
> > Cancellera's move in PR was on a flat paved section with no crowds.
> > Maybe he waited until he was clear of the break to punch the turbo
> > button so the motor wouldn't be heard.
>
> I see Cancellera's been singled out for the rbr irrational witch hunt.
> And a new record, I think. Tried and convicted in two posts, and I almost
> missed it.



Dumbass -

Check out the videos in the "motorized doping" thread.

Pretty interesting. I'm not sure what to think.

thanks,

Fred. presented by Gringioni.

[Frederick the Great]

In article
>,
Anton Berlin > wrote:

> I am going to side with the 'this may be happening' camp - Here's why
> I think it's possible
>
> The crowds drown out the noise of the motor.
>
> An extra few pounds or kilos on a bike really wouldn't make much of a
> difference in a flat race (see analytical cycling)
>
> Tactics would allow the user just the advantage to blow up his
> opponents at critical times in the race. They have to expel excess
> energy to counter the assisted move. Even a few of these moves would
> be enough to make a difference in top level riders.
>
> Lastly he could use the assist to solo home in the last few kilos or
> to motor pace himself up to speed and then milk that speed for some
> time, then repeat. No rider could keep up with.
>
> Watching the spring classics I was amazed at Cancellera's superhuman
> efforts but now I am thinking there's some doubt.
>
> I expect that winner's bikes will be inspected and even bikes being
> changed out at critical times will now be examined as well.
>
> Is there any depth these guys won't stoop to in order to win a race?
>
> It almost makes Armstrong's decades long record of cheating seem
> admirable.

I have always admired it.

--
Old Fritz

[Anton Berlin]

On May 31, 12:29*pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
> wrote:
> On May 31, 10:18*am, Anton Berlin > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I am going to side with the 'this may be happening' camp - *Here's why
> > I think it's possible
>
> > The crowds drown out the noise of the motor.
>
> > An extra few pounds or kilos on a bike really wouldn't make much of a
> > difference in a flat race (see analytical cycling)
>
> > Tactics would allow the user just the advantage to blow up his
> > opponents at critical times in the race. *They have to expel excess
> > energy to counter the assisted move. *Even a few of these moves would
> > be enough to make a difference in top level riders.
>
> > Lastly he could use the assist to solo home in the last few kilos or
> > to motor pace himself up to speed and then milk that speed for some
> > time, then repeat. No rider could keep up with.
>
> > Watching the spring classics I was amazed at Cancellera's superhuman
> > efforts but now I am thinking there's some doubt.
>
> > I expect that winner's bikes will be inspected and even bikes being
> > changed out at critical times will now be examined as well.
>
> > Is there any depth these guys won't stoop to in order to win a race?
>
> > It almost makes Armstrong's decades long record of cheating seem
> > admirable.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> Did you check out the video links in the "motorized doping" thread?
>
> If the analysis is correct, he used the "assist" to get away. It looks
> plausible.
>
> If it's truem, there's only one penalty: lifetime ban. For the rider
> and any others complicit. This goes way beyond doping.
>
> thanks,
>
> Fred. presented by Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I watched one of them and it wasn't the hand movements that sold me.
It was the realization that the crowds drown out the possible motor
noise and then the relation of his effort to his pedaling and a mental
comparison of all of the Eddy film archives that made me think this
looks suspicious.

I am going to check out the other videos

[raamman]

On May 31, 3:59*pm, Anton Berlin > wrote:
> On May 31, 12:29*pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > On May 31, 10:18*am, Anton Berlin > wrote:
>
> > > I am going to side with the 'this may be happening' camp - *Here's why
> > > I think it's possible
>
> > > The crowds drown out the noise of the motor.
>
> > > An extra few pounds or kilos on a bike really wouldn't make much of a
> > > difference in a flat race (see analytical cycling)
>
> > > Tactics would allow the user just the advantage to blow up his
> > > opponents at critical times in the race. *They have to expel excess
> > > energy to counter the assisted move. *Even a few of these moves would
> > > be enough to make a difference in top level riders.
>
> > > Lastly he could use the assist to solo home in the last few kilos or
> > > to motor pace himself up to speed and then milk that speed for some
> > > time, then repeat. No rider could keep up with.
>
> > > Watching the spring classics I was amazed at Cancellera's superhuman
> > > efforts but now I am thinking there's some doubt.
>
> > > I expect that winner's bikes will be inspected and even bikes being
> > > changed out at critical times will now be examined as well.
>
> > > Is there any depth these guys won't stoop to in order to win a race?
>
> > > It almost makes Armstrong's decades long record of cheating seem
> > > admirable.
>
> > Dumbass -
>
> > Did you check out the video links in the "motorized doping" thread?
>
> > If the analysis is correct, he used the "assist" to get away. It looks
> > plausible.
>
> > If it's truem, there's only one penalty: lifetime ban. For the rider
> > and any others complicit. This goes way beyond doping.
>
> > thanks,
>
> > Fred. presented by Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I watched one of them and it wasn't the hand movements that sold me.
> It was the realization that the crowds drown out the possible motor
> noise and then the relation of his effort to his pedaling and a mental
> comparison of all of the Eddy film archives that made me think this
> looks suspicious.
>
> I am going to check out the other videos- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

the difference between you and Cancellera is someone who works as hard
as he does to get to his level it would be more than an insult to
suggest putting in a little ****ing motor to help- some people just
have no sense of personal pride and would stoop to any level to cheat
believing everyone else has the same moral standard, and for others
personal pride is everything.

[Fredmaster of Brainerd]

On May 31, 10:29*am, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
> wrote:
> On May 31, 10:18*am, Anton Berlin > wrote:
>
>
>
> > I am going to side with the 'this may be happening' camp - *Here's why
> > I think it's possible
>
> > The crowds drown out the noise of the motor.
>
> > An extra few pounds or kilos on a bike really wouldn't make much of a
> > difference in a flat race (see analytical cycling)
>
> > Tactics would allow the user just the advantage to blow up his
> > opponents at critical times in the race. *They have to expel excess
> > energy to counter the assisted move. *Even a few of these moves would
> > be enough to make a difference in top level riders.
>
> > Lastly he could use the assist to solo home in the last few kilos or
> > to motor pace himself up to speed and then milk that speed for some
> > time, then repeat. No rider could keep up with.
>
> > Watching the spring classics I was amazed at Cancellera's superhuman
> > efforts but now I am thinking there's some doubt.
>
> > I expect that winner's bikes will be inspected and even bikes being
> > changed out at critical times will now be examined as well.
>
> > Is there any depth these guys won't stoop to in order to win a race?
>
> > It almost makes Armstrong's decades long record of cheating seem
> > admirable.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> Did you check out the video links in the "motorized doping" thread?
>
> If the analysis is correct, he used the "assist" to get away. It looks
> plausible.
>
> If it's truem, there's only one penalty: lifetime ban. For the rider
> and any others complicit. This goes way beyond doping.

I watched the youtube video and at that resolution there
is no way I can tell the difference between a hand motion
to shift gears and the putative button pushing motion.
The makers of the youtube video have an obvious agenda
so it's difficult to weigh that evidence.

I think a lifetime ban for using a motor would be legitimate
(it's a Rosie Ruiz-level of offense) but it's totally unproven
at this point.

Did they record the bike weights at the weigh-in?

Fredmaster Ben

[Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.]

On May 31, 2:09*pm, raamman > wrote:
> On May 31, 3:59*pm, Anton Berlin > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 31, 12:29*pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
>
> > > wrote:
> > > On May 31, 10:18*am, Anton Berlin > wrote:
>
> > > > I am going to side with the 'this may be happening' camp - *Here's why
> > > > I think it's possible
>
> > > > The crowds drown out the noise of the motor.
>
> > > > An extra few pounds or kilos on a bike really wouldn't make much of a
> > > > difference in a flat race (see analytical cycling)
>
> > > > Tactics would allow the user just the advantage to blow up his
> > > > opponents at critical times in the race. *They have to expel excess
> > > > energy to counter the assisted move. *Even a few of these moves would
> > > > be enough to make a difference in top level riders.
>
> > > > Lastly he could use the assist to solo home in the last few kilos or
> > > > to motor pace himself up to speed and then milk that speed for some
> > > > time, then repeat. No rider could keep up with.
>
> > > > Watching the spring classics I was amazed at Cancellera's superhuman
> > > > efforts but now I am thinking there's some doubt.
>
> > > > I expect that winner's bikes will be inspected and even bikes being
> > > > changed out at critical times will now be examined as well.
>
> > > > Is there any depth these guys won't stoop to in order to win a race?
>
> > > > It almost makes Armstrong's decades long record of cheating seem
> > > > admirable.
>
> > > Dumbass -
>
> > > Did you check out the video links in the "motorized doping" thread?
>
> > > If the analysis is correct, he used the "assist" to get away. It looks
> > > plausible.
>
> > > If it's truem, there's only one penalty: lifetime ban. For the rider
> > > and any others complicit. This goes way beyond doping.
>
> > > thanks,
>
> > > Fred. presented by Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I watched one of them and it wasn't the hand movements that sold me.
> > It was the realization that the crowds drown out the possible motor
> > noise and then the relation of his effort to his pedaling and a mental
> > comparison of all of the Eddy film archives that made me think this
> > looks suspicious.
>
> > I am going to check out the other videos- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> the difference between you and Cancellera is someone who works as hard
> as he does to get to his level it would be more than an insult to
> suggest putting in a little ****ing motor to help- some people just
> have no sense of personal pride and would stoop to any level to cheat
> believing everyone else has the same moral standard, and for others
> personal pride is everything.



Dumbass -

What are you babbling about?

Anyone who enters FRed Across AMerica clearly has no personal pride.

thanks,

Fred. presented by Gringioni.

[DA74]

On May 31, 12:59*pm, Anton Berlin > wrote:
> On May 31, 12:29*pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > On May 31, 10:18*am, Anton Berlin > wrote:
>
> > > I am going to side with the 'this may be happening' camp - *Here's why
> > > I think it's possible
>
> > > The crowds drown out the noise of the motor.
>
> > > An extra few pounds or kilos on a bike really wouldn't make much of a
> > > difference in a flat race (see analytical cycling)
>
> > > Tactics would allow the user just the advantage to blow up his
> > > opponents at critical times in the race. *They have to expel excess
> > > energy to counter the assisted move. *Even a few of these moves would
> > > be enough to make a difference in top level riders.
>
> > > Lastly he could use the assist to solo home in the last few kilos or
> > > to motor pace himself up to speed and then milk that speed for some
> > > time, then repeat. No rider could keep up with.
>
> > > Watching the spring classics I was amazed at Cancellera's superhuman
> > > efforts but now I am thinking there's some doubt.
>
> > > I expect that winner's bikes will be inspected and even bikes being
> > > changed out at critical times will now be examined as well.
>
> > > Is there any depth these guys won't stoop to in order to win a race?
>
> > > It almost makes Armstrong's decades long record of cheating seem
> > > admirable.
>
> > Dumbass -
>
> > Did you check out the video links in the "motorized doping" thread?
>
> > If the analysis is correct, he used the "assist" to get away. It looks
> > plausible.
>
> > If it's truem, there's only one penalty: lifetime ban. For the rider
> > and any others complicit. This goes way beyond doping.
>
> > thanks,
>
> > Fred. presented by Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I watched one of them and it wasn't the hand movements that sold me.
> It was the realization that the crowds drown out the possible motor
> noise and then the relation of his effort to his pedaling and a mental
> comparison of all of the Eddy film archives that made me think this
> looks suspicious.
>
> I am going to check out the other videos- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I was highly about the technology until seeing the video actually
showing the race bike with the motor. It would be virtually impossible
to tell in a race setting if someone had this installed on their bike.
And you guys are right, with the crowd noise no one would ever hear
anything.

After seeing this I'd actually be surprised if it hasn't been used. I
can't make any determination as to Cancellara's hand movements - It
can be as simple as him going to shift but changing his mind. But it's
still plausible. Here it is for those who haven't seen the other
thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE

Yes Cancellara rides away in the saddle like he's on a motorcycle at
both Roubaix and the Ronde but we have seen this kind of dominant
performance before. Take a quick look - Do you remember this LBL
victory?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT_PCiT1jTU

-DA74

[Anton Berlin]

On May 31, 4:09*pm, raamman > wrote:
> On May 31, 3:59*pm, Anton Berlin > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 31, 12:29*pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
>
> > > wrote:
> > > On May 31, 10:18*am, Anton Berlin > wrote:
>
> > > > I am going to side with the 'this may be happening' camp - *Here's why
> > > > I think it's possible
>
> > > > The crowds drown out the noise of the motor.
>
> > > > An extra few pounds or kilos on a bike really wouldn't make much of a
> > > > difference in a flat race (see analytical cycling)
>
> > > > Tactics would allow the user just the advantage to blow up his
> > > > opponents at critical times in the race. *They have to expel excess
> > > > energy to counter the assisted move. *Even a few of these moves would
> > > > be enough to make a difference in top level riders.
>
> > > > Lastly he could use the assist to solo home in the last few kilos or
> > > > to motor pace himself up to speed and then milk that speed for some
> > > > time, then repeat. No rider could keep up with.
>
> > > > Watching the spring classics I was amazed at Cancellera's superhuman
> > > > efforts but now I am thinking there's some doubt.
>
> > > > I expect that winner's bikes will be inspected and even bikes being
> > > > changed out at critical times will now be examined as well.
>
> > > > Is there any depth these guys won't stoop to in order to win a race?
>
> > > > It almost makes Armstrong's decades long record of cheating seem
> > > > admirable.
>
> > > Dumbass -
>
> > > Did you check out the video links in the "motorized doping" thread?
>
> > > If the analysis is correct, he used the "assist" to get away. It looks
> > > plausible.
>
> > > If it's truem, there's only one penalty: lifetime ban. For the rider
> > > and any others complicit. This goes way beyond doping.
>
> > > thanks,
>
> > > Fred. presented by Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I watched one of them and it wasn't the hand movements that sold me.
> > It was the realization that the crowds drown out the possible motor
> > noise and then the relation of his effort to his pedaling and a mental
> > comparison of all of the Eddy film archives that made me think this
> > looks suspicious.
>
> > I am going to check out the other videos- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> the difference between you and Cancellera is someone who works as hard
> as he does to get to his level it would be more than an insult to
> suggest putting in a little ****ing motor to help- some people just
> have no sense of personal pride and would stoop to any level to cheat
> believing everyone else has the same moral standard, and for others
> personal pride is everything.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

You've got it completely backwards. I take no insult from getting
dropped, from not wininng a race. I don't need to stoop to any
level. But someone that's been built up to be a cycling god and is
realizing he no longer has it - or isn't getting that classic win
that's eveaded him again and again.... well ?

[Anton Berlin]

On May 31, 5:48*pm, DA74 > wrote:
> On May 31, 12:59*pm, Anton Berlin > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 31, 12:29*pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
>
> > > wrote:
> > > On May 31, 10:18*am, Anton Berlin > wrote:
>
> > > > I am going to side with the 'this may be happening' camp - *Here's why
> > > > I think it's possible
>
> > > > The crowds drown out the noise of the motor.
>
> > > > An extra few pounds or kilos on a bike really wouldn't make much of a
> > > > difference in a flat race (see analytical cycling)
>
> > > > Tactics would allow the user just the advantage to blow up his
> > > > opponents at critical times in the race. *They have to expel excess
> > > > energy to counter the assisted move. *Even a few of these moves would
> > > > be enough to make a difference in top level riders.
>
> > > > Lastly he could use the assist to solo home in the last few kilos or
> > > > to motor pace himself up to speed and then milk that speed for some
> > > > time, then repeat. No rider could keep up with.
>
> > > > Watching the spring classics I was amazed at Cancellera's superhuman
> > > > efforts but now I am thinking there's some doubt.
>
> > > > I expect that winner's bikes will be inspected and even bikes being
> > > > changed out at critical times will now be examined as well.
>
> > > > Is there any depth these guys won't stoop to in order to win a race?
>
> > > > It almost makes Armstrong's decades long record of cheating seem
> > > > admirable.
>
> > > Dumbass -
>
> > > Did you check out the video links in the "motorized doping" thread?
>
> > > If the analysis is correct, he used the "assist" to get away. It looks
> > > plausible.
>
> > > If it's truem, there's only one penalty: lifetime ban. For the rider
> > > and any others complicit. This goes way beyond doping.
>
> > > thanks,
>
> > > Fred. presented by Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I watched one of them and it wasn't the hand movements that sold me.
> > It was the realization that the crowds drown out the possible motor
> > noise and then the relation of his effort to his pedaling and a mental
> > comparison of all of the Eddy film archives that made me think this
> > looks suspicious.
>
> > I am going to check out the other videos- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I was highly about the technology until seeing the video actually
> showing the race bike with the motor. It would be virtually impossible
> to tell in a race setting if someone had this installed on their bike.
> And you guys are right, with the crowd noise no one would ever hear
> anything.
>
> After seeing this I'd actually be surprised if it hasn't been used. I
> can't make any determination as to Cancellara's hand movements - It
> can be as simple as him going to shift but changing his mind. But it's
> still plausible. Here it is for those who haven't seen the other
> thread:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE
>
> Yes Cancellara rides away in the saddle like he's on a motorcycle at
> both Roubaix and the Ronde but we have seen this kind of dominant
> performance before. Take a quick look - Do you remember this LBL
> victory?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT_PCiT1jTU
>
> -DA74- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The video headline says it all "died at 34" and the guy's drug list
is as long as anyones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Vandenbroucke_%28cyclist%29

But otherwise a reasonable post.

[DA74]

On May 31, 4:47*pm, Anton Berlin > wrote:
> On May 31, 5:48*pm, DA74 > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 31, 12:59*pm, Anton Berlin > wrote:
>
> > > On May 31, 12:29*pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > On May 31, 10:18*am, Anton Berlin > wrote:
>
> > > > > I am going to side with the 'this may be happening' camp - *Here's why
> > > > > I think it's possible
>
> > > > > The crowds drown out the noise of the motor.
>
> > > > > An extra few pounds or kilos on a bike really wouldn't make much of a
> > > > > difference in a flat race (see analytical cycling)
>
> > > > > Tactics would allow the user just the advantage to blow up his
> > > > > opponents at critical times in the race. *They have to expel excess
> > > > > energy to counter the assisted move. *Even a few of these moves would
> > > > > be enough to make a difference in top level riders.
>
> > > > > Lastly he could use the assist to solo home in the last few kilos or
> > > > > to motor pace himself up to speed and then milk that speed for some
> > > > > time, then repeat. No rider could keep up with.
>
> > > > > Watching the spring classics I was amazed at Cancellera's superhuman
> > > > > efforts but now I am thinking there's some doubt.
>
> > > > > I expect that winner's bikes will be inspected and even bikes being
> > > > > changed out at critical times will now be examined as well.
>
> > > > > Is there any depth these guys won't stoop to in order to win a race?
>
> > > > > It almost makes Armstrong's decades long record of cheating seem
> > > > > admirable.
>
> > > > Dumbass -
>
> > > > Did you check out the video links in the "motorized doping" thread?
>
> > > > If the analysis is correct, he used the "assist" to get away. It looks
> > > > plausible.
>
> > > > If it's truem, there's only one penalty: lifetime ban. For the rider
> > > > and any others complicit. This goes way beyond doping.
>
> > > > thanks,
>
> > > > Fred. presented by Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > I watched one of them and it wasn't the hand movements that sold me.
> > > It was the realization that the crowds drown out the possible motor
> > > noise and then the relation of his effort to his pedaling and a mental
> > > comparison of all of the Eddy film archives that made me think this
> > > looks suspicious.
>
> > > I am going to check out the other videos- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I was highly about the technology until seeing the video actually
> > showing the race bike with the motor. It would be virtually impossible
> > to tell in a race setting if someone had this installed on their bike.
> > And you guys are right, with the crowd noise no one would ever hear
> > anything.
>
> > After seeing this I'd actually be surprised if it hasn't been used. I
> > can't make any determination as to Cancellara's hand movements - It
> > can be as simple as him going to shift but changing his mind. But it's
> > still plausible. Here it is for those who haven't seen the other
> > thread:
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE
>
> > Yes Cancellara rides away in the saddle like he's on a motorcycle at
> > both Roubaix and the Ronde but we have seen this kind of dominant
> > performance before. Take a quick look - Do you remember this LBL
> > victory?
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT_PCiT1jTU
>
> > -DA74- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> The video headline says it all "died at 34" *and the guy's drug list
> is as long as anyones.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Vandenbroucke_%28cyclist%29
>
> But otherwise a reasonable post.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I was actually trying to find an extreme example to make that very
point. Museeuw comes to mind as well (like in 2002 PR).

Coming back to Cancellara though - Another reason I wouldn't be too
surprised is that Riis has shown he will do absulutely anything to
win. Plus he reeeeally needed some wins early this season to lock in a
sponsor with Saxo exercising their early release option. Desperate
times call for electric motors...

All that said Riis at Hautacam in '96 still cracks me up. ****ing
dirty scoundrel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwHlCl2s0UM
-DA74

[Dear Crabby]

On 5/31/10 5:50 PM, in article
, "DA74"
> wrote:

> On May 31, 4:47*pm, Anton Berlin > wrote:
>> On May 31, 5:48*pm, DA74 > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On May 31, 12:59*pm, Anton Berlin > wrote:
>>
>>>> On May 31, 12:29*pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
>>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> On May 31, 10:18*am, Anton Berlin > wrote:
>>
>>>>>> I am going to side with the 'this may be happening' camp - *Here's why
>>>>>> I think it's possible
>>
>>>>>> The crowds drown out the noise of the motor.
>>
>>>>>> An extra few pounds or kilos on a bike really wouldn't make much of a
>>>>>> difference in a flat race (see analytical cycling)
>>
>>>>>> Tactics would allow the user just the advantage to blow up his
>>>>>> opponents at critical times in the race. *They have to expel excess
>>>>>> energy to counter the assisted move. *Even a few of these moves would
>>>>>> be enough to make a difference in top level riders.
>>
>>>>>> Lastly he could use the assist to solo home in the last few kilos or
>>>>>> to motor pace himself up to speed and then milk that speed for some
>>>>>> time, then repeat. No rider could keep up with.
>>
>>>>>> Watching the spring classics I was amazed at Cancellera's superhuman
>>>>>> efforts but now I am thinking there's some doubt.
>>
>>>>>> I expect that winner's bikes will be inspected and even bikes being
>>>>>> changed out at critical times will now be examined as well.
>>
>>>>>> Is there any depth these guys won't stoop to in order to win a race?
>>
>>>>>> It almost makes Armstrong's decades long record of cheating seem
>>>>>> admirable.
>>
>>>>> Dumbass -
>>
>>>>> Did you check out the video links in the "motorized doping" thread?
>>
>>>>> If the analysis is correct, he used the "assist" to get away. It looks
>>>>> plausible.
>>
>>>>> If it's truem, there's only one penalty: lifetime ban. For the rider
>>>>> and any others complicit. This goes way beyond doping.
>>
>>>>> thanks,
>>
>>>>> Fred. presented by Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>>>> I watched one of them and it wasn't the hand movements that sold me.
>>>> It was the realization that the crowds drown out the possible motor
>>>> noise and then the relation of his effort to his pedaling and a mental
>>>> comparison of all of the Eddy film archives that made me think this
>>>> looks suspicious.
>>
>>>> I am going to check out the other videos- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>>> I was highly about the technology until seeing the video actually
>>> showing the race bike with the motor. It would be virtually impossible
>>> to tell in a race setting if someone had this installed on their bike.
>>> And you guys are right, with the crowd noise no one would ever hear
>>> anything.
>>
>>> After seeing this I'd actually be surprised if it hasn't been used. I
>>> can't make any determination as to Cancellara's hand movements - It
>>> can be as simple as him going to shift but changing his mind. But it's
>>> still plausible. Here it is for those who haven't seen the other
>>> thread:
>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE
>>
>>> Yes Cancellara rides away in the saddle like he's on a motorcycle at
>>> both Roubaix and the Ronde but we have seen this kind of dominant
>>> performance before. Take a quick look - Do you remember this LBL
>>> victory?
>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT_PCiT1jTU
>>
>>> -DA74- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> The video headline says it all "died at 34" *and the guy's drug list
>> is as long as anyones.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Vandenbroucke_%28cyclist%29
>>
>> But otherwise a reasonable post.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> I was actually trying to find an extreme example to make that very
> point. Museeuw comes to mind as well (like in 2002 PR).
>
> Coming back to Cancellara though - Another reason I wouldn't be too
> surprised is that Riis has shown he will do absulutely anything to
> win. Plus he reeeeally needed some wins early this season to lock in a
> sponsor with Saxo exercising their early release option. Desperate
> times call for electric motors...
>
> All that said Riis at Hautacam in '96 still cracks me up. ****ing
> dirty scoundrel.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwHlCl2s0UM
> -DA74


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyqyVKSJiOM

[Anton Berlin]

On May 31, 9:53*pm, Dear Crabby > wrote:
> On 5/31/10 5:50 PM, in article
> , "DA74"
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > On May 31, 4:47*pm, Anton Berlin > wrote:
> >> On May 31, 5:48*pm, DA74 > wrote:
>
> >>> On May 31, 12:59*pm, Anton Berlin > wrote:
>
> >>>> On May 31, 12:29*pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
>
> >>>> > wrote:
> >>>>> On May 31, 10:18*am, Anton Berlin > wrote:
>
> >>>>>> I am going to side with the 'this may be happening' camp - *Here's why
> >>>>>> I think it's possible
>
> >>>>>> The crowds drown out the noise of the motor.
>
> >>>>>> An extra few pounds or kilos on a bike really wouldn't make much of a
> >>>>>> difference in a flat race (see analytical cycling)
>
> >>>>>> Tactics would allow the user just the advantage to blow up his
> >>>>>> opponents at critical times in the race. *They have to expel excess
> >>>>>> energy to counter the assisted move. *Even a few of these moves would
> >>>>>> be enough to make a difference in top level riders.
>
> >>>>>> Lastly he could use the assist to solo home in the last few kilos or
> >>>>>> to motor pace himself up to speed and then milk that speed for some
> >>>>>> time, then repeat. No rider could keep up with.
>
> >>>>>> Watching the spring classics I was amazed at Cancellera's superhuman
> >>>>>> efforts but now I am thinking there's some doubt.
>
> >>>>>> I expect that winner's bikes will be inspected and even bikes being
> >>>>>> changed out at critical times will now be examined as well.
>
> >>>>>> Is there any depth these guys won't stoop to in order to win a race?
>
> >>>>>> It almost makes Armstrong's decades long record of cheating seem
> >>>>>> admirable.
>
> >>>>> Dumbass -
>
> >>>>> Did you check out the video links in the "motorized doping" thread?
>
> >>>>> If the analysis is correct, he used the "assist" to get away. It looks
> >>>>> plausible.
>
> >>>>> If it's truem, there's only one penalty: lifetime ban. For the rider
> >>>>> and any others complicit. This goes way beyond doping.
>
> >>>>> thanks,
>
> >>>>> Fred. presented by Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >>>>> - Show quoted text -
>
> >>>> I watched one of them and it wasn't the hand movements that sold me.
> >>>> It was the realization that the crowds drown out the possible motor
> >>>> noise and then the relation of his effort to his pedaling and a mental
> >>>> comparison of all of the Eddy film archives that made me think this
> >>>> looks suspicious.
>
> >>>> I am going to check out the other videos- Hide quoted text -
>
> >>>> - Show quoted text -
>
> >>> I was highly about the technology until seeing the video actually
> >>> showing the race bike with the motor. It would be virtually impossible
> >>> to tell in a race setting if someone had this installed on their bike..
> >>> And you guys are right, with the crowd noise no one would ever hear
> >>> anything.
>
> >>> After seeing this I'd actually be surprised if it hasn't been used. I
> >>> can't make any determination as to Cancellara's hand movements - It
> >>> can be as simple as him going to shift but changing his mind. But it's
> >>> still plausible. Here it is for those who haven't seen the other
> >>> thread:
>
> >>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE
>
> >>> Yes Cancellara rides away in the saddle like he's on a motorcycle at
> >>> both Roubaix and the Ronde but we have seen this kind of dominant
> >>> performance before. Take a quick look - Do you remember this LBL
> >>> victory?
>
> >>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT_PCiT1jTU
>
> >>> -DA74- Hide quoted text -
>
> >>> - Show quoted text -
>
> >> The video headline says it all "died at 34" *and the guy's drug list
> >> is as long as anyones.
>
> >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Vandenbroucke_%28cyclist%29
>
> >> But otherwise a reasonable post.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > I was actually trying to find an extreme example to make that very
> > point. Museeuw comes to mind as well (like in 2002 PR).
>
> > Coming back to Cancellara though - Another reason I wouldn't be too
> > surprised is that Riis has shown he will do absulutely anything to
> > win. Plus he reeeeally needed some wins early this season to lock in a
> > sponsor with Saxo exercising their early release option. Desperate
> > times call for electric motors...
>
> > All that said Riis at Hautacam in '96 still cracks me up. ****ing
> > dirty scoundrel.
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwHlCl2s0UM
> > -DA74
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyqyVKSJiOM- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

LMAO - "Hey Zipp I can get you on the backdrop for an important news
conference Bjarne Riis is having today for only $30,000. We're not
sure what he's going to talk about but we're certain that there will
be worldwide coverage."

[Keith]

On Mon, 31 May 2010 15:48:05 -0700 (PDT), DA74
> wrote:


>I was highly about the technology until seeing the video actually
>showing the race bike with the motor. It would be virtually impossible
>to tell in a race setting if someone had this installed on their bike.
>And you guys are right, with the crowd noise no one would ever hear
>anything.
>
>After seeing this I'd actually be surprised if it hasn't been used. I
>can't make any determination as to Cancellara's hand movements - It
>can be as simple as him going to shift but changing his mind. But it's
>still plausible. Here it is for those who haven't seen the other
>thread:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE
>

+1, this is disturbing...

[Fred Flintstein]

On 5/31/2010 7:50 PM, DA74 wrote:
> All that said Riis at Hautacam in '96 still cracks me up. ****ing
> dirty scoundrel.

Compared to who?

Fred Flintstein

[DA74]

On Jun 1, 7:30*am, Fred Flintstein >
wrote:
> On 5/31/2010 7:50 PM, DA74 wrote:
>
> > All that said Riis at Hautacam in '96 still cracks me up. ****ing
> > dirty scoundrel.
>
> Compared to who?
>
> Fred Flintstein

To "whom" you ask?

Well of course in comparison to the long list of clean tour winners
****tard.
-DA74

[Fred Flintstein]

On 6/1/2010 11:32 AM, DA74 wrote:
> On Jun 1, 7:30 am, Fred >
> wrote:
>> On 5/31/2010 7:50 PM, DA74 wrote:
>>
>>> All that said Riis at Hautacam in '96 still cracks me up. ****ing
>>> dirty scoundrel.
>>
>> Compared to who?
>>
>> Fred Flintstein
>
> To "whom" you ask?
>
> Well of course in comparison to the long list of clean tour winners
> ****tard.
> -DA74

Fockstick,

I'm just curious, whom was the highest placed clean rider
that year?

Fred Flintstein

[raamman]

On May 31, 7:41*pm, Anton Berlin > wrote:
> On May 31, 4:09*pm, raamman > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 31, 3:59*pm, Anton Berlin > wrote:
>
> > > On May 31, 12:29*pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > On May 31, 10:18*am, Anton Berlin > wrote:
>
> > > > > I am going to side with the 'this may be happening' camp - *Here's why
> > > > > I think it's possible
>
> > > > > The crowds drown out the noise of the motor.
>
> > > > > An extra few pounds or kilos on a bike really wouldn't make much of a
> > > > > difference in a flat race (see analytical cycling)
>
> > > > > Tactics would allow the user just the advantage to blow up his
> > > > > opponents at critical times in the race. *They have to expel excess
> > > > > energy to counter the assisted move. *Even a few of these moves would
> > > > > be enough to make a difference in top level riders.
>
> > > > > Lastly he could use the assist to solo home in the last few kilos or
> > > > > to motor pace himself up to speed and then milk that speed for some
> > > > > time, then repeat. No rider could keep up with.
>
> > > > > Watching the spring classics I was amazed at Cancellera's superhuman
> > > > > efforts but now I am thinking there's some doubt.
>
> > > > > I expect that winner's bikes will be inspected and even bikes being
> > > > > changed out at critical times will now be examined as well.
>
> > > > > Is there any depth these guys won't stoop to in order to win a race?
>
> > > > > It almost makes Armstrong's decades long record of cheating seem
> > > > > admirable.
>
> > > > Dumbass -
>
> > > > Did you check out the video links in the "motorized doping" thread?
>
> > > > If the analysis is correct, he used the "assist" to get away. It looks
> > > > plausible.
>
> > > > If it's truem, there's only one penalty: lifetime ban. For the rider
> > > > and any others complicit. This goes way beyond doping.
>
> > > > thanks,
>
> > > > Fred. presented by Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > I watched one of them and it wasn't the hand movements that sold me.
> > > It was the realization that the crowds drown out the possible motor
> > > noise and then the relation of his effort to his pedaling and a mental
> > > comparison of all of the Eddy film archives that made me think this
> > > looks suspicious.
>
> > > I am going to check out the other videos- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > the difference between you and Cancellera is someone who works as hard
> > as he does to get to his level it would be more than an insult to
> > suggest putting in a little ****ing motor to help- some people just
> > have no sense of personal pride and would stoop to any level to cheat
> > believing everyone else has the same moral standard, and for others
> > personal pride is everything.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> You've got it completely backwards. *I take no insult from getting
> dropped, from not wininng a race. *I don't need to stoop to any
> level. *But someone that's been built up to be a cycling god and is
> realizing he no longer has it - or isn't getting that classic win
> that's eveaded him again and again.... well ?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

what for ? glory ? a contract ? prize money ? he has all that in
spades- he has a dis-incentive to use such means, for a plagiarist
like kurigan it's a no-brainer, he's probabally working on a model for
a local crit right now.

[Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.]

On Jun 1, 10:01*am, raamman > wrote:
>
> what for ? glory ? a contract ? prize money ?



Dang.

You're an idiot. Seriously.

thanks,

Fred. presented by Gringioni.

[Brad Anders]

On May 31, 12:33*pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
> wrote:
> On May 31, 12:21*pm, Kyle Legate > wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:30:52 -0700, dave a wrote:
>
> > > Cancellera's move in PR was on a flat paved section with no crowds.
> > > Maybe he waited until he was clear of the break to punch the turbo
> > > button so the motor wouldn't be heard.
>
> > I see Cancellera's been singled out for the rbr irrational witch hunt.
> > And a new record, I think. Tried and convicted in two posts, and I almost
> > missed it.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> Check out the videos in the "motorized doping" thread.
>
> Pretty interesting. I'm not sure what to think.
>
> thanks,
>
> Fred. presented by Gringioni.

IMO, these devices are great. I doubt any pro would use one because if
they got caught, they're looking at a lifetime ban, assuming they live
through the ass-kicking they'd get from other pros.

Where I see the real value of these motors is in the poseur/pseudo-
bike racer and fatty masters world. The possibilities here are
endless. Such a device would, as Davide said, allow a 50-year-old fat
slob to ride with Giro-level riders, at least until the battery
croaked. I can see this thing turning those "A" level club rides into
a walk in the part for the poseur, who can now hang with the best
climbers in his club on the steepest grades, and sprint for the glory
of the town limit sign with the fastest sprinters. It will only be a
short time until someone uses one in a fatty master's national
championship road race, blazing by their feeble competition to win the
coveted stars-and-stripes jersey. Cost will be no object, as fatty
masters have more gobs of cash to burn. Anyone who would drop $3K on
wheels and $5K on an SRM, just to hang with the group on a club ride,
wouldn't bat an eye shelling out the bucks for one of these things.

A brave new world awaits. Henry, if you want to add to your millions,
you'd re-tool your shop to start turning these things out for $5K a
pop. You'd have plenty of customers.

Brad Anders

[Ningi[_2_]]

On 01/06/2010 18:23, Brad Anders wrote:
> On May 31, 12:33 pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
> > wrote:
>> On May 31, 12:21 pm, Kyle > wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:30:52 -0700, dave a wrote:
>>
>>>> Cancellera's move in PR was on a flat paved section with no crowds.
>>>> Maybe he waited until he was clear of the break to punch the turbo
>>>> button so the motor wouldn't be heard.
>>
>>> I see Cancellera's been singled out for the rbr irrational witch hunt.
>>> And a new record, I think. Tried and convicted in two posts, and I almost
>>> missed it.
>>
>> Dumbass -
>>
>> Check out the videos in the "motorized doping" thread.
>>
>> Pretty interesting. I'm not sure what to think.
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> Fred. presented by Gringioni.
>
> IMO, these devices are great. I doubt any pro would use one because if
> they got caught, they're looking at a lifetime ban, assuming they live
> through the ass-kicking they'd get from other pros.
>
> Where I see the real value of these motors is in the poseur/pseudo-
> bike racer and fatty masters world. The possibilities here are
> endless. Such a device would, as Davide said, allow a 50-year-old fat
> slob to ride with Giro-level riders, at least until the battery
> croaked. I can see this thing turning those "A" level club rides into
> a walk in the part for the poseur, who can now hang with the best
> climbers in his club on the steepest grades, and sprint for the glory
> of the town limit sign with the fastest sprinters. It will only be a
> short time until someone uses one in a fatty master's national
> championship road race, blazing by their feeble competition to win the
> coveted stars-and-stripes jersey. Cost will be no object, as fatty
> masters have more gobs of cash to burn. Anyone who would drop $3K on
> wheels and $5K on an SRM, just to hang with the group on a club ride,
> wouldn't bat an eye shelling out the bucks for one of these things.
>
> A brave new world awaits. Henry, if you want to add to your millions,
> you'd re-tool your shop to start turning these things out for $5K a
> pop. You'd have plenty of customers.
>

Maybe we'll see a surprising increases in the number of 'accidents'
requiring a new bike with a couple of hours to go.

Pete

[Anton Berlin]

On Jun 1, 12:23*pm, Brad Anders > wrote:
> On May 31, 12:33*pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > On May 31, 12:21*pm, Kyle Legate > wrote:
>
> > > On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:30:52 -0700, dave a wrote:
>
> > > > Cancellera's move in PR was on a flat paved section with no crowds.
> > > > Maybe he waited until he was clear of the break to punch the turbo
> > > > button so the motor wouldn't be heard.
>
> > > I see Cancellera's been singled out for the rbr irrational witch hunt..
> > > And a new record, I think. Tried and convicted in two posts, and I almost
> > > missed it.
>
> > Dumbass -
>
> > Check out the videos in the "motorized doping" thread.
>
> > Pretty interesting. I'm not sure what to think.
>
> > thanks,
>
> > Fred. presented by Gringioni.
>
> IMO, these devices are great. I doubt any pro would use one because if
> they got caught, they're looking at a lifetime ban, assuming they live
> through the ass-kicking they'd get from other pros.
>
> Where I see the real value of these motors is in the poseur/pseudo-
> bike racer and fatty masters world. The possibilities here are
> endless. Such a device would, as Davide said, allow a 50-year-old fat
> slob to ride with Giro-level riders, at least until the battery
> croaked. I can see this thing turning those "A" level club rides into
> a walk in the part for the poseur, who can now hang with the best
> climbers in his club on the steepest grades, and sprint for the glory
> of the town limit sign with the fastest sprinters. It will only be a
> short time until someone uses one in a fatty master's national
> championship road race, blazing by their feeble competition to win the
> coveted stars-and-stripes jersey. Cost will be no object, as fatty
> masters have more gobs of cash to burn. Anyone who would drop $3K on
> wheels and $5K on an SRM, just to hang with the group on a club ride,
> wouldn't bat an eye shelling out the bucks for one of these things.
>
> A brave new world awaits. Henry, if you want to add to your millions,
> you'd re-tool your shop to start turning these things out for $5K a
> pop. You'd have plenty of customers.
>
> Brad Anders- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

No screaming crowds at the Fatty Master World Championships, the motor
sound would give them away in a second - unless you're talking about
the wing eating competition.

[Anton Berlin]

On Jun 1, 12:59*pm, Ningi > wrote:
> On 01/06/2010 18:23, Brad Anders wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 31, 12:33 pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
> > > *wrote:
> >> On May 31, 12:21 pm, Kyle > *wrote:
>
> >>> On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:30:52 -0700, dave a wrote:
>
> >>>> Cancellera's move in PR was on a flat paved section with no crowds.
> >>>> Maybe he waited until he was clear of the break to punch the turbo
> >>>> button so the motor wouldn't be heard.
>
> >>> I see Cancellera's been singled out for the rbr irrational witch hunt..
> >>> And a new record, I think. Tried and convicted in two posts, and I almost
> >>> missed it.
>
> >> Dumbass -
>
> >> Check out the videos in the "motorized doping" thread.
>
> >> Pretty interesting. I'm not sure what to think.
>
> >> thanks,
>
> >> Fred. presented by Gringioni.
>
> > IMO, these devices are great. I doubt any pro would use one because if
> > they got caught, they're looking at a lifetime ban, assuming they live
> > through the ass-kicking they'd get from other pros.
>
> > Where I see the real value of these motors is in the poseur/pseudo-
> > bike racer and fatty masters world. The possibilities here are
> > endless. Such a device would, as Davide said, allow a 50-year-old fat
> > slob to ride with Giro-level riders, at least until the battery
> > croaked. I can see this thing turning those "A" level club rides into
> > a walk in the part for the poseur, who can now hang with the best
> > climbers in his club on the steepest grades, and sprint for the glory
> > of the town limit sign with the fastest sprinters. It will only be a
> > short time until someone uses one in a fatty master's national
> > championship road race, blazing by their feeble competition to win the
> > coveted stars-and-stripes jersey. Cost will be no object, as fatty
> > masters have more gobs of cash to burn. Anyone who would drop $3K on
> > wheels and $5K on an SRM, just to hang with the group on a club ride,
> > wouldn't bat an eye shelling out the bucks for one of these things.
>
> > A brave new world awaits. Henry, if you want to add to your millions,
> > you'd re-tool your shop to start turning these things out for $5K a
> > pop. You'd have plenty of customers.
>
> Maybe we'll see a surprising increases in the number of 'accidents'
> requiring a new bike with a couple of hours to go.
>
> Pete- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Like Cadel's bike change in the Giro?

[Brad Anders]

On Jun 1, 11:53*am, Anton Berlin > wrote:
> On Jun 1, 12:23*pm, Brad Anders > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 31, 12:33*pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
>
> > > wrote:
> > > On May 31, 12:21*pm, Kyle Legate > wrote:
>
> > > > On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:30:52 -0700, dave a wrote:
>
> > > > > Cancellera's move in PR was on a flat paved section with no crowds.
> > > > > Maybe he waited until he was clear of the break to punch the turbo
> > > > > button so the motor wouldn't be heard.
>
> > > > I see Cancellera's been singled out for the rbr irrational witch hunt.

[DA74]

On Jun 1, 9:50*am, Fred Flintstein >
wrote:
> On 6/1/2010 11:32 AM, DA74 wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 1, 7:30 am, Fred >
> > wrote:
> >> On 5/31/2010 7:50 PM, DA74 wrote:
>
> >>> All that said Riis at Hautacam in '96 still cracks me up. ****ing
> >>> dirty scoundrel.
>
> >> Compared to who?
>
> >> Fred Flintstein
>
> > To "whom" you ask?
>
> > Well of course in comparison to the long list of clean tour winners
> > ****tard.
> > -DA74
>
> Fockstick,
>
> I'm just curious, whom was the highest placed clean rider
> that year?
>
> Fred Flintstein- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

****tard,
Jean-Luc Masdupuy. Everyone know that. Now will you finally accept
help and get treatment for your Aspergers?
-DA74

[thirty-six]

On 31 May, 20:21, Kyle Legate > wrote:
> On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:30:52 -0700, dave a wrote:
>
> > Cancellera's move in PR was on a flat paved section with no crowds.
> > Maybe he waited until he was clear of the break to punch the turbo
> > button so the motor wouldn't be heard.
>
> I see Cancellera's been singled out for the rbr irrational [T]witch hunt.
> And a new record, I think. Tried and convicted in two posts, and I almost
> missed it.

No, the right hand movement was quite obvious. He was bringing his
fist around to grab more lever as he powered (human) up the climb.

[Fredmaster of Brainerd]

On Jun 1, 12:10*pm, Brad Anders > wrote:
> On Jun 1, 11:53*am, Anton Berlin > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 1, 12:23*pm, Brad Anders > wrote:
>
> > > On May 31, 12:33*pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > On May 31, 12:21*pm, Kyle Legate > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:30:52 -0700, dave a wrote:
>
> > > > > > Cancellera's move in PR was on a flat paved section with no crowds.
> > > > > > Maybe he waited until he was clear of the break to punch the turbo
> > > > > > button so the motor wouldn't be heard.
>
> > > > > I see Cancellera's been singled out for the rbr irrational witch hunt.
> > > > > And a new record, I think. Tried and convicted in two posts, and I almost
> > > > > missed it.
>
> > > > Dumbass -
>
> > > > Check out the videos in the "motorized doping" thread.
>
> > > > Pretty interesting. I'm not sure what to think.
>
> > > > thanks,
>
> > > > Fred. presented by Gringioni.
>
> > > IMO, these devices are great. I doubt any pro would use one because if
> > > they got caught, they're looking at a lifetime ban, assuming they live
> > > through the ass-kicking they'd get from other pros.
>
> > > Where I see the real value of these motors is in the poseur/pseudo-
> > > bike racer and fatty masters world. The possibilities here are
> > > endless. Such a device would, as Davide said, allow a 50-year-old fat
> > > slob to ride with Giro-level riders, at least until the battery
> > > croaked. I can see this thing turning those "A" level club rides into
> > > a walk in the part for the poseur, who can now hang with the best
> > > climbers in his club on the steepest grades, and sprint for the glory
> > > of the town limit sign with the fastest sprinters. It will only be a
> > > short time until someone uses one in a fatty master's national
> > > championship road race, blazing by their feeble competition to win the
> > > coveted stars-and-stripes jersey. Cost will be no object, as fatty
> > > masters have more gobs of cash to burn. Anyone who would drop $3K on
> > > wheels and $5K on an SRM, just to hang with the group on a club ride,
> > > wouldn't bat an eye shelling out the bucks for one of these things.
>
> > > A brave new world awaits. Henry, if you want to add to your millions,
> > > you'd re-tool your shop to start turning these things out for $5K a
> > > pop. You'd have plenty of customers.
>
> > > Brad Anders- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > No screaming crowds at the Fatty Master World Championships, the motor
> > sound would give them away in a second *- unless you're talking about
> > the wing eating competition.
>
> You're thinking first generation. Second generation versions will be
> essentially noise-free, if that's what's needed to sneak them into the
> fatty masters peloton. Chang's already working on it.
>
> Future versions will put out 400 W for an hour or more. I can't wait
> to see the chaos they'll cause on the boulevard.
>

The limitation on these things is going to be the
battery, as it usually is on portable electrical devices.

The battery that the stock Gruber assist uses is lithium ion,
has a capacity of about 135 W*hour, and is said to weigh
1.7 kg including casing etc. (The motor weighs another
0.9 kg.) It works out to about 100 W*hour/kg for the battery
weight alone, which is a typical energy density for Li-ion batteries.
A pro rider using it to cheat at the moment could have used a
lower capacity battery to save weight and make it less
noticeable.

With that battery technology, to do 200 W for an hour
would require a 2 kg battery, plus another 1 kg or a
bit more for the motor and packaging. That's getting to
adding 7 pounds to the bike, starting to be really
noticeable if anyone lifts the bike. 400 W for an hour
and you need a 4 kg battery. Too heavy for cheating
at most amateur racing. Certainly capable of causing
chaos on the bike path.

I'd guess that they are not all over the bike path yet in
part because they're expensive. 4 kg of Li-ion battery is
a lot of money. It's within a Fattie Masters budget or even
a dedicated century rider, though. I could see these
showing up at El Tour de Tucson pretty soon.

Fredmaster Ben

[z, fred]

Fredmaster of Brainerd wrote:
> On Jun 1, 12:10 pm, Brad Anders > wrote:
>> On Jun 1, 11:53 am, Anton Berlin > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jun 1, 12:23 pm, Brad Anders > wrote:
>>>> On May 31, 12:33 pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> On May 31, 12:21 pm, Kyle Legate > wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:30:52 -0700, dave a wrote:
>>>>>>> Cancellera's move in PR was on a flat paved section with no crowds.
>>>>>>> Maybe he waited until he was clear of the break to punch the turbo
>>>>>>> button so the motor wouldn't be heard.
>>>>>> I see Cancellera's been singled out for the rbr irrational witch hunt.
>>>>>> And a new record, I think. Tried and convicted in two posts, and I almost
>>>>>> missed it.
>>>>> Dumbass -
>>>>> Check out the videos in the "motorized doping" thread.
>>>>> Pretty interesting. I'm not sure what to think.
>>>>> thanks,
>>>>> Fred. presented by Gringioni.
>>>> IMO, these devices are great. I doubt any pro would use one because if
>>>> they got caught, they're looking at a lifetime ban, assuming they live
>>>> through the ass-kicking they'd get from other pros.
>>>> Where I see the real value of these motors is in the poseur/pseudo-
>>>> bike racer and fatty masters world. The possibilities here are
>>>> endless. Such a device would, as Davide said, allow a 50-year-old fat
>>>> slob to ride with Giro-level riders, at least until the battery
>>>> croaked. I can see this thing turning those "A" level club rides into
>>>> a walk in the part for the poseur, who can now hang with the best
>>>> climbers in his club on the steepest grades, and sprint for the glory
>>>> of the town limit sign with the fastest sprinters. It will only be a
>>>> short time until someone uses one in a fatty master's national
>>>> championship road race, blazing by their feeble competition to win the
>>>> coveted stars-and-stripes jersey. Cost will be no object, as fatty
>>>> masters have more gobs of cash to burn. Anyone who would drop $3K on
>>>> wheels and $5K on an SRM, just to hang with the group on a club ride,
>>>> wouldn't bat an eye shelling out the bucks for one of these things.
>>>> A brave new world awaits. Henry, if you want to add to your millions,
>>>> you'd re-tool your shop to start turning these things out for $5K a
>>>> pop. You'd have plenty of customers.
>>>> Brad Anders- Hide quoted text -
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>> No screaming crowds at the Fatty Master World Championships, the motor
>>> sound would give them away in a second - unless you're talking about
>>> the wing eating competition.
>> You're thinking first generation. Second generation versions will be
>> essentially noise-free, if that's what's needed to sneak them into the
>> fatty masters peloton. Chang's already working on it.
>>
>> Future versions will put out 400 W for an hour or more. I can't wait
>> to see the chaos they'll cause on the boulevard.
>>
>
> The limitation on these things is going to be the
> battery, as it usually is on portable electrical devices.
>
> The battery that the stock Gruber assist uses is lithium ion,
> has a capacity of about 135 W*hour, and is said to weigh
> 1.7 kg including casing etc. (The motor weighs another
> 0.9 kg.) It works out to about 100 W*hour/kg for the battery
> weight alone, which is a typical energy density for Li-ion batteries.
> A pro rider using it to cheat at the moment could have used a
> lower capacity battery to save weight and make it less
> noticeable.
>
> With that battery technology, to do 200 W for an hour
> would require a 2 kg battery, plus another 1 kg or a
> bit more for the motor and packaging. That's getting to
> adding 7 pounds to the bike, starting to be really
> noticeable if anyone lifts the bike. 400 W for an hour
> and you need a 4 kg battery. Too heavy for cheating
> at most amateur racing. Certainly capable of causing
> chaos on the bike path.
>
> I'd guess that they are not all over the bike path yet in
> part because they're expensive. 4 kg of Li-ion battery is
> a lot of money. It's within a Fattie Masters budget or even
> a dedicated century rider, though. I could see these
> showing up at El Tour de Tucson pretty soon.
>
> Fredmaster Ben
>
>

The interesting thing about the motorized bike issue is that unlike
riders who get thrown under the bus by the team for doping, the team has
direct involvement via the team mechanics who work on the bikes and the
team's ownership of the bikes.

[Brad Anders]

On Jun 1, 3:12*pm, Fredmaster of Brainerd > wrote:

> I'd guess that they are not all over the bike path yet in
> part because they're expensive. *4 kg of Li-ion battery is
> a lot of money. *It's within a Fattie Masters budget or even
> a dedicated century rider, though. *I could see these
> showing up at El Tour de Tucson pretty soon.

Good point, and I also expect to see them in the big randonneur events
like P-B-P.

Won't that cause a ****storm! Those P-B-P guys are even more serious
than the pros. Someone will figure out a stealth way to quickly switch
out batteries at the checkpoints.

Brad Anders

[thirty-six]

On 2 June, 01:00, Brad Anders > wrote:
> On Jun 1, 3:12*pm, Fredmaster of Brainerd > wrote:
>
> > I'd guess that they are not all over the bike path yet in
> > part because they're expensive. *4 kg of Li-ion battery is
> > a lot of money. *It's within a Fattie Masters budget or even
> > a dedicated century rider, though. *I could see these
> > showing up at El Tour de Tucson pretty soon.
>
> Good point, and I also expect to see them in the big randonneur events
> like P-B-P.
>
> Won't that cause a ****storm! Those P-B-P guys are even more serious
> than the pros. Someone will figure out a stealth way to quickly switch
> out batteries at the checkpoints.

Electrolyte in water bottles :-)

[K. Fred Gauss]

thirty-six wrote:
> On 2 June, 01:00, Brad Anders > wrote:
>> On Jun 1, 3:12 pm, Fredmaster of Brainerd > wrote:
>>
>>> I'd guess that they are not all over the bike path yet in
>>> part because they're expensive. 4 kg of Li-ion battery is
>>> a lot of money. It's within a Fattie Masters budget or even
>>> a dedicated century rider, though. I could see these
>>> showing up at El Tour de Tucson pretty soon.
>> Good point, and I also expect to see them in the big randonneur events
>> like P-B-P.
>>
>> Won't that cause a ****storm! Those P-B-P guys are even more serious
>> than the pros. Someone will figure out a stealth way to quickly switch
>> out batteries at the checkpoints.
>
> Electrolyte in water bottles :-)

A battery that looks like a water bottle would work. Modify the water
bottle cage to provide contact points.

[Ben Trovato]

On Jun 1, 4:58*pm, "z, fred" > wrote:
> Fredmaster of Brainerd wrote:
> > On Jun 1, 12:10 pm, Brad Anders > wrote:
> >> On Jun 1, 11:53 am, Anton Berlin > wrote:
>
> >>> On Jun 1, 12:23 pm, Brad Anders > wrote:
> >>>> On May 31, 12:33 pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
> >>>> > wrote:
> >>>>> On May 31, 12:21 pm, Kyle Legate > wrote:
> >>>>>> On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:30:52 -0700, dave a wrote:
> >>>>>>> Cancellera's move in PR was on a flat paved section with no crowds.
> >>>>>>> Maybe he waited until he was clear of the break to punch the turbo
> >>>>>>> button so the motor wouldn't be heard.
> >>>>>> I see Cancellera's been singled out for the rbr irrational witch hunt.
> >>>>>> And a new record, I think. Tried and convicted in two posts, and I almost
> >>>>>> missed it.
> >>>>> Dumbass -
> >>>>> Check out the videos in the "motorized doping" thread.
> >>>>> Pretty interesting. I'm not sure what to think.
> >>>>> thanks,
> >>>>> Fred. presented by Gringioni.
> >>>> IMO, these devices are great. I doubt any pro would use one because if
> >>>> they got caught, they're looking at a lifetime ban, assuming they live
> >>>> through the ass-kicking they'd get from other pros.
> >>>> Where I see the real value of these motors is in the poseur/pseudo-
> >>>> bike racer and fatty masters world. The possibilities here are
> >>>> endless. Such a device would, as Davide said, allow a 50-year-old fat
> >>>> slob to ride with Giro-level riders, at least until the battery
> >>>> croaked. I can see this thing turning those "A" level club rides into
> >>>> a walk in the part for the poseur, who can now hang with the best
> >>>> climbers in his club on the steepest grades, and sprint for the glory
> >>>> of the town limit sign with the fastest sprinters. It will only be a
> >>>> short time until someone uses one in a fatty master's national
> >>>> championship road race, blazing by their feeble competition to win the
> >>>> coveted stars-and-stripes jersey. Cost will be no object, as fatty
> >>>> masters have more gobs of cash to burn. Anyone who would drop $3K on
> >>>> wheels and $5K on an SRM, just to hang with the group on a club ride,
> >>>> wouldn't bat an eye shelling out the bucks for one of these things.
> >>>> A brave new world awaits. Henry, if you want to add to your millions,
> >>>> you'd re-tool your shop to start turning these things out for $5K a
> >>>> pop. You'd have plenty of customers.
> >>>> Brad Anders- Hide quoted text -
> >>>> - Show quoted text -
> >>> No screaming crowds at the Fatty Master World Championships, the motor
> >>> sound would give them away in a second *- unless you're talking about
> >>> the wing eating competition.
> >> You're thinking first generation. Second generation versions will be
> >> essentially noise-free, if that's what's needed to sneak them into the
> >> fatty masters peloton. Chang's already working on it.
>
> >> Future versions will put out 400 W for an hour or more. I can't wait
> >> to see the chaos they'll cause on the boulevard.
>
> > The limitation on these things is going to be the
> > battery, as it usually is on portable electrical devices.
>
> > The battery that the stock Gruber assist uses is lithium ion,
> > has a capacity of about 135 W*hour, and is said to weigh
> > 1.7 kg including casing etc. *(The motor weighs another
> > 0.9 kg.) * It works out to about 100 W*hour/kg for the battery
> > weight alone, which is a typical energy density for Li-ion batteries.
> > A pro rider using it to cheat at the moment could have used a
> > lower capacity battery to save weight and make it less
> > noticeable.
>
> > With that battery technology, to do 200 W for an hour
> > would require a 2 kg battery, plus another 1 kg or a
> > bit more for the motor and packaging. *That's getting to
> > adding 7 pounds to the bike, starting to be really
> > noticeable if anyone lifts the bike. *400 W for an hour
> > and you need a 4 kg battery. *Too heavy for cheating
> > at most amateur racing. *Certainly capable of causing
> > chaos on the bike path.
>
> > I'd guess that they are not all over the bike path yet in
> > part because they're expensive. *4 kg of Li-ion battery is
> > a lot of money. *It's within a Fattie Masters budget or even
> > a dedicated century rider, though. *I could see these
> > showing up at El Tour de Tucson pretty soon.
>
> > Fredmaster Ben
>
> The interesting thing about the motorized bike issue is that unlike
> riders who get thrown under the bus by the team for doping, the team has
> direct involvement via the team mechanics who work on the bikes and the
> team's ownership of the bikes.

The wrenches will want to revise the way the pot gets split.

[K. Fred Gauss]

Anton Berlin wrote:
> I am going to side with the 'this may be happening' camp - Here's why
> I think it's possible
>
> The crowds drown out the noise of the motor.
>
> An extra few pounds or kilos on a bike really wouldn't make much of a
> difference in a flat race (see analytical cycling)
>
> Tactics would allow the user just the advantage to blow up his
> opponents at critical times in the race. They have to expel excess
> energy to counter the assisted move. Even a few of these moves would
> be enough to make a difference in top level riders.
>
> Lastly he could use the assist to solo home in the last few kilos or
> to motor pace himself up to speed and then milk that speed for some
> time, then repeat. No rider could keep up with.
>
> Watching the spring classics I was amazed at Cancellera's superhuman
> efforts but now I am thinking there's some doubt.
>
> I expect that winner's bikes will be inspected and even bikes being
> changed out at critical times will now be examined as well.
>
> Is there any depth these guys won't stoop to in order to win a race?
>
> It almost makes Armstrong's decades long record of cheating seem
> admirable.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/06/news/cancellara-calls-motorized-bikes-claims-stupid-as-uci-looks-at-scanning-bikes_119452

[Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.]

On Jun 1, 5:33*pm, "K. Fred Gauss"
> wrote:
> thirty-six wrote:
> > On 2 June, 01:00, Brad Anders > wrote:
> >> On Jun 1, 3:12 pm, Fredmaster of Brainerd > wrote:
>
> >>> I'd guess that they are not all over the bike path yet in
> >>> part because they're expensive. *4 kg of Li-ion battery is
> >>> a lot of money. *It's within a Fattie Masters budget or even
> >>> a dedicated century rider, though. *I could see these
> >>> showing up at El Tour de Tucson pretty soon.
> >> Good point, and I also expect to see them in the big randonneur events
> >> like P-B-P.
>
> >> Won't that cause a ****storm! Those P-B-P guys are even more serious
> >> than the pros. Someone will figure out a stealth way to quickly switch
> >> out batteries at the checkpoints.
>
> > Electrolyte in water bottles :-)
>
> A battery that looks like a water bottle would work. Modify the water
> bottle cage to provide contact points.


Dumbass -

They already have batteries that look like water bottles (for night
lights).

thanks,

Fred. presented by Gringioni.

[Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.]

On Jun 1, 11:53*am, Anton Berlin > wrote:
> On Jun 1, 12:23*pm, Brad Anders > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 31, 12:33*pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
>
> > > wrote:
> > > On May 31, 12:21*pm, Kyle Legate > wrote:
>
> > > > On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:30:52 -0700, dave a wrote:
>
> > > > > Cancellera's move in PR was on a flat paved section with no crowds.
> > > > > Maybe he waited until he was clear of the break to punch the turbo
> > > > > button so the motor wouldn't be heard.
>
> > > > I see Cancellera's been singled out for the rbr irrational witch hunt.

[K. Fred Gauss]

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni. wrote:
> On Jun 1, 5:33 pm, "K. Fred Gauss"
> > wrote:
>> thirty-six wrote:
>>> On 2 June, 01:00, Brad Anders > wrote:
>>>> On Jun 1, 3:12 pm, Fredmaster of Brainerd > wrote:
>>>>> I'd guess that they are not all over the bike path yet in
>>>>> part because they're expensive. 4 kg of Li-ion battery is
>>>>> a lot of money. It's within a Fattie Masters budget or even
>>>>> a dedicated century rider, though. I could see these
>>>>> showing up at El Tour de Tucson pretty soon.
>>>> Good point, and I also expect to see them in the big randonneur events
>>>> like P-B-P.
>>>> Won't that cause a ****storm! Those P-B-P guys are even more serious
>>>> than the pros. Someone will figure out a stealth way to quickly switch
>>>> out batteries at the checkpoints.
>>> Electrolyte in water bottles :-)
>> A battery that looks like a water bottle would work. Modify the water
>> bottle cage to provide contact points.
>
>
> Dumbass -
>
> They already have batteries that look like water bottles (for night
> lights).
>
> thanks,
>
> Fred. presented by Gringioni.

The ones I've seen wouldn't fool anyone. They have wires coming out of
the top, for crissakes. I'm assuming that you've got to disguise it
enough to fool an OCD and paranoid PBP/RAAM rider that's looking for
cheating competitors.

[Frederick the Great]

In article
>,
Fredmaster of Brainerd > wrote:

> On Jun 1, 12:10Â*pm, Brad Anders > wrote:
> > On Jun 1, 11:53Â*am, Anton Berlin > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jun 1, 12:23Â*pm, Brad Anders > wrote:
> >
> > > > On May 31, 12:33Â*pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
> >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > On May 31, 12:21Â*pm, Kyle Legate > wrote:
> >
> > > > > > On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:30:52 -0700, dave a wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > Cancellera's move in PR was on a flat paved section with no crowds.
> > > > > > > Maybe he waited until he was clear of the break to punch the turbo
> > > > > > > button so the motor wouldn't be heard.
> >
> > > > > > I see Cancellera's been singled out for the rbr irrational witch hunt.
> > > > > > And a new record, I think. Tried and convicted in two posts, and I almost
> > > > > > missed it.
> >
> > > > > Dumbass -
> >
> > > > > Check out the videos in the "motorized doping" thread.
> >
> > > > > Pretty interesting. I'm not sure what to think.
> >
> > > > > thanks,
> >
> > > > > Fred. presented by Gringioni.
> >
> > > > IMO, these devices are great. I doubt any pro would use one because if
> > > > they got caught, they're looking at a lifetime ban, assuming they live
> > > > through the ass-kicking they'd get from other pros.
> >
> > > > Where I see the real value of these motors is in the poseur/pseudo-
> > > > bike racer and fatty masters world. The possibilities here are
> > > > endless. Such a device would, as Davide said, allow a 50-year-old fat
> > > > slob to ride with Giro-level riders, at least until the battery
> > > > croaked. I can see this thing turning those "A" level club rides into
> > > > a walk in the part for the poseur, who can now hang with the best
> > > > climbers in his club on the steepest grades, and sprint for the glory
> > > > of the town limit sign with the fastest sprinters. It will only be a
> > > > short time until someone uses one in a fatty master's national
> > > > championship road race, blazing by their feeble competition to win the
> > > > coveted stars-and-stripes jersey. Cost will be no object, as fatty
> > > > masters have more gobs of cash to burn. Anyone who would drop $3K on
> > > > wheels and $5K on an SRM, just to hang with the group on a club ride,
> > > > wouldn't bat an eye shelling out the bucks for one of these things.
> >
> > > > A brave new world awaits. Henry, if you want to add to your millions,
> > > > you'd re-tool your shop to start turning these things out for $5K a
> > > > pop. You'd have plenty of customers.
> >
> > > No screaming crowds at the Fatty Master World Championships, the motor
> > > sound would give them away in a second Â*- unless you're talking about
> > > the wing eating competition.
> >
> > You're thinking first generation. Second generation versions will be
> > essentially noise-free, if that's what's needed to sneak them into the
> > fatty masters peloton. Chang's already working on it.
> >
> > Future versions will put out 400 W for an hour or more. I can't wait
> > to see the chaos they'll cause on the boulevard.
>
> The limitation on these things is going to be the
> battery, as it usually is on portable electrical devices.
>
> The battery that the stock Gruber assist uses is lithium ion,
> has a capacity of about 135 W*hour, and is said to weigh
> 1.7 kg including casing etc. (The motor weighs another
> 0.9 kg.) It works out to about 100 W*hour/kg for the battery
> weight alone, which is a typical energy density for Li-ion batteries.
> A pro rider using it to cheat at the moment could have used a
> lower capacity battery to save weight and make it less
> noticeable.
>
> With that battery technology, to do 200 W for an hour
> would require a 2 kg battery, plus another 1 kg or a
> bit more for the motor and packaging. That's getting to
> adding 7 pounds to the bike, starting to be really
> noticeable if anyone lifts the bike. 400 W for an hour
> and you need a 4 kg battery. Too heavy for cheating
> at most amateur racing. Certainly capable of causing
> chaos on the bike path.
>
> I'd guess that they are not all over the bike path yet in
> part because they're expensive. 4 kg of Li-ion battery is
> a lot of money. It's within a Fattie Masters budget or even
> a dedicated century rider, though. I could see these
> showing up at El Tour de Tucson pretty soon.

Oh? You know somebody getting one?
Somebody who has done all the calculations?

--
Old Fritz

[Anton Berlin]

On Jun 1, 10:13*pm, "K. Fred Gauss"
> wrote:
> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni. wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 1, 5:33 pm, "K. Fred Gauss"
> > > wrote:
> >> thirty-six wrote:
> >>> On 2 June, 01:00, Brad Anders > wrote:
> >>>> On Jun 1, 3:12 pm, Fredmaster of Brainerd > wrote:
> >>>>> I'd guess that they are not all over the bike path yet in
> >>>>> part because they're expensive. *4 kg of Li-ion battery is
> >>>>> a lot of money. *It's within a Fattie Masters budget or even
> >>>>> a dedicated century rider, though. *I could see these
> >>>>> showing up at El Tour de Tucson pretty soon.
> >>>> Good point, and I also expect to see them in the big randonneur events
> >>>> like P-B-P.
> >>>> Won't that cause a ****storm! Those P-B-P guys are even more serious
> >>>> than the pros. Someone will figure out a stealth way to quickly switch
> >>>> out batteries at the checkpoints.
> >>> Electrolyte in water bottles :-)
> >> A battery that looks like a water bottle would work. Modify the water
> >> bottle cage to provide contact points.
>
> > Dumbass -
>
> > They already have batteries that look like water bottles (for night
> > lights).
>
> > thanks,
>
> > Fred. presented by Gringioni.
>
> The ones I've seen wouldn't fool anyone. They have wires coming out of
> the top, for crissakes. I'm assuming that you've got to disguise it
> enough to fool an OCD and paranoid PBP/RAAM rider that's looking for
> cheating competitors.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Dumbass - I could make it happen. No problem to solder these together
(maybe a little smaller diameter model) and then heat shrink tube them
and slip into a frame. The larger the bike the more amps in
reserve.

http://www.batteryspace.com/lifepo438120pmsizecell32v10ah100asurgerate32whwith 6mscrewterminal-unapproved.aspx

[Anton Berlin]

>
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/06/news/cancellara-calls-motorize...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yeah - notice how he said "“I’ve never had batteries on my bike.” but
he didn't deny rubber bands or a pack of hamsters.

**** it - I am making some HamsterSTRONG bracelets.

[thirty-six]

On 2 June, 16:46, Anton Berlin > wrote:
> On Jun 1, 10:13*pm, "K. Fred Gauss"
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > Kurgan. presented by Gringioni. wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 1, 5:33 pm, "K. Fred Gauss"
> > > > wrote:
> > >> thirty-six wrote:
> > >>> On 2 June, 01:00, Brad Anders > wrote:
> > >>>> On Jun 1, 3:12 pm, Fredmaster of Brainerd > wrote:
> > >>>>> I'd guess that they are not all over the bike path yet in
> > >>>>> part because they're expensive. *4 kg of Li-ion battery is
> > >>>>> a lot of money. *It's within a Fattie Masters budget or even
> > >>>>> a dedicated century rider, though. *I could see these
> > >>>>> showing up at El Tour de Tucson pretty soon.
> > >>>> Good point, and I also expect to see them in the big randonneur events
> > >>>> like P-B-P.
> > >>>> Won't that cause a ****storm! Those P-B-P guys are even more serious
> > >>>> than the pros. Someone will figure out a stealth way to quickly switch
> > >>>> out batteries at the checkpoints.
> > >>> Electrolyte in water bottles :-)
> > >> A battery that looks like a water bottle would work. Modify the water
> > >> bottle cage to provide contact points.
>
> > > Dumbass -
>
> > > They already have batteries that look like water bottles (for night
> > > lights).
>
> > > thanks,
>
> > > Fred. presented by Gringioni.
>
> > The ones I've seen wouldn't fool anyone. They have wires coming out of
> > the top, for crissakes. I'm assuming that you've got to disguise it
> > enough to fool an OCD and paranoid PBP/RAAM rider that's looking for
> > cheating competitors.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Dumbass - I could make it happen. *No problem to solder these together
> (maybe a little smaller diameter model) and then heat shrink tube them
> and slip into a frame. *The larger the bike the more amps in
> reserve.
>
> http://www.batteryspace.com/lifepo438120pmsizecell32v10ah100asurgerat...

Three of them would fit in a bottle. The old sprung swing clip as
used on handlebar mountings would provide the clamping force required
on the electrical contacts.

[z, fred]

Anton Berlin wrote:
> On Jun 1, 10:13 pm, "K. Fred Gauss"
> > wrote:
>> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni. wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jun 1, 5:33 pm, "K. Fred Gauss"
>>> > wrote:
>>>> thirty-six wrote:
>>>>> On 2 June, 01:00, Brad Anders > wrote:
>>>>>> On Jun 1, 3:12 pm, Fredmaster of Brainerd > wrote:
>>>>>>> I'd guess that they are not all over the bike path yet in
>>>>>>> part because they're expensive. 4 kg of Li-ion battery is
>>>>>>> a lot of money. It's within a Fattie Masters budget or even
>>>>>>> a dedicated century rider, though. I could see these
>>>>>>> showing up at El Tour de Tucson pretty soon.
>>>>>> Good point, and I also expect to see them in the big randonneur events
>>>>>> like P-B-P.
>>>>>> Won't that cause a ****storm! Those P-B-P guys are even more serious
>>>>>> than the pros. Someone will figure out a stealth way to quickly switch
>>>>>> out batteries at the checkpoints.
>>>>> Electrolyte in water bottles :-)
>>>> A battery that looks like a water bottle would work. Modify the water
>>>> bottle cage to provide contact points.
>>> Dumbass -
>>> They already have batteries that look like water bottles (for night
>>> lights).
>>> thanks,
>>> Fred. presented by Gringioni.
>> The ones I've seen wouldn't fool anyone. They have wires coming out of
>> the top, for crissakes. I'm assuming that you've got to disguise it
>> enough to fool an OCD and paranoid PBP/RAAM rider that's looking for
>> cheating competitors.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Dumbass - I could make it happen. No problem to solder these together
> (maybe a little smaller diameter model) and then heat shrink tube them
> and slip into a frame. The larger the bike the more amps in
> reserve.
>
> http://www.batteryspace.com/lifepo438120pmsizecell32v10ah100asurgerate32whwith 6mscrewterminal-unapproved.aspx
>

That's where the RadioShack sponsorship comes in.

[K. Fred Gauss]

Anton Berlin wrote:
>> http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/06/news/cancellara-calls-motorize...- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Yeah - notice how he said "“I’ve never had batteries on my bike.” but
> he didn't deny rubber bands or a pack of hamsters.
>
> **** it - I am making some HamsterSTRONG bracelets.

If I had one of those, I'd win the Gavia stage FOR SURE!

[Brad Anders]

I heard that since this scandal was revealed, that Henry Chang's
secret NorCal factory has been designing advanced versions of these
devices, using techniques Henry developed while building the laserharp
for SiTM. You can expect hundreds of these units to be flooding the
NorCal fatty masters and triathlon scene in the next few months. The
units are as follows:

* "The Cavendish" - provides a single 1500 W assist for 20 seconds.
* "The Fabian" - provides a maximum 500 W assist for 20 minutes
* "The Floyd" - provides a 100 W assist for 4 hours

All units will come with special flame-red "ChangStrong" bracelets,
and a replica masters national championship jersey. Orders will open
on July 4.

Brad Anders

[Fred Flintstein]

On 6/3/2010 9:16 AM, Brad Anders wrote:
> I heard that since this scandal was revealed, that Henry Chang's
> secret NorCal factory has been designing advanced versions of these
> devices, using techniques Henry developed while building the laserharp
> for SiTM. You can expect hundreds of these units to be flooding the
> NorCal fatty masters and triathlon scene in the next few months. The
> units are as follows:
>
> * "The Cavendish" - provides a single 1500 W assist for 20 seconds.
> * "The Fabian" - provides a maximum 500 W assist for 20 minutes
> * "The Floyd" - provides a 100 W assist for 4 hours
>
> All units will come with special flame-red "ChangStrong" bracelets,
> and a replica masters national championship jersey. Orders will open
> on July 4.
>
> Brad Anders
>

Does the jersey come in XXXL?

Fred Flintstein

[Brad Anders]

On Jun 3, 7:28*am, Fred Flintstein >
wrote:

> Does the jersey come in XXXL?

There's another size?

Brad Anders

[Anton Berlin]

On Jun 3, 9:16*am, Brad Anders > wrote:
> I heard that since this scandal was revealed, that Henry Chang's
> secret NorCal factory has been designing advanced versions of these
> devices, using techniques Henry developed while building the laserharp
> for SiTM. You can expect hundreds of these units to be flooding the
> NorCal fatty masters and triathlon scene in the next few months. The
> units are as follows:
>
> * "The Cavendish" - provides a single 1500 W assist for 20 seconds.
> * "The Fabian" - provides a maximum 500 W assist for 20 minutes
> * "The Floyd" - provides a 100 W assist for 4 hours
>
> All units will come with special flame-red "ChangStrong" bracelets,
> and a replica masters national championship jersey. Orders will open
> on July 4.
>
> Brad Anders

ChangSTRONG bracelets only come in stainless.

[Brad Anders]

On Jun 3, 7:54*am, Anton Berlin > wrote:
> On Jun 3, 9:16*am, Brad Anders > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I heard that since this scandal was revealed, that Henry Chang's
> > secret NorCal factory has been designing advanced versions of these
> > devices, using techniques Henry developed while building the laserharp
> > for SiTM. You can expect hundreds of these units to be flooding the
> > NorCal fatty masters and triathlon scene in the next few months. The
> > units are as follows:
>
> > * "The Cavendish" - provides a single 1500 W assist for 20 seconds.
> > * "The Fabian" - provides a maximum 500 W assist for 20 minutes
> > * "The Floyd" - provides a 100 W assist for 4 hours
>
> > All units will come with special flame-red "ChangStrong" bracelets,
> > and a replica masters national championship jersey. Orders will open
> > on July 4.
>
> > Brad Anders
>
> ChangSTRONG bracelets only come in stainless

Of course. But I got the color wrong, they're "blood red" annodized
stainless.

Brad Anders

[Betty Munro]

Brad Anders wrote:
>>> I heard that since this scandal was revealed, that Henry Chang's
>>> secret NorCal factory has been designing advanced versions of these
>>> devices

Anton Berlin wrote:
>> ChangSTRONG bracelets only come in stainless

Brad Anders wrote:
> Of course. But I got the color wrong, they're "blood red" annodized
> stainless.

I want mine in carbon so it can look really impressive when it explodes.

[Fredmaster of Brainerd]

On Jun 2, 7:21*am, Frederick the Great > wrote:
> *Fredmaster of Brainerd > wrote:
>
> > I'd guess that they are not all over the bike path yet in
> > part because they're expensive. *4 kg of Li-ion battery is
> > a lot of money. *It's within a Fattie Masters budget or even
> > a dedicated century rider, though. *I could see these
> > showing up at El Tour de Tucson pretty soon.
>
> Oh? You know somebody getting one?
> Somebody who has done all the calculations?

El Tour de Tucson has never really appealed to me
because it seems to combine the expense and logistical
nightmares (ie cluster****) of a race, with
the sketchy inexperienced riders and crowding
(ie cluster****) of a century (Fred ride). Plus I can
ride those roads for free if I want.
At least in a Norcal century club ride, the mid-ride stops
tend to have something tasty like brownies or muffins,
so there is mild added value to doing the organized ride.

However, now that you mention it, the El Tour experience
could be enlivened by a ChangSTRONG motor -
I prefer to think of it as a medical device like an implanted
pacemaker. It's to treat my Wattage Deficit Disorder.

I like doing my own mechanical work, though, so maybe
I'll start scrounging up Li-ion cells from old laptop batteries ...

FredMASTER of Century Rides Ben

[Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.]

On Jun 3, 7:16*am, Brad Anders > wrote:
> I heard that since this scandal was revealed, that Henry Chang's
> secret NorCal factory has been designing advanced versions of these
> devices, using techniques Henry developed while building the laserharp
> for SiTM. You can expect hundreds of these units to be flooding the
> NorCal fatty masters and triathlon scene in the next few months. The
> units are as follows:
>
> * "The Cavendish" - provides a single 1500 W assist for 20 seconds.
> * "The Fabian" - provides a maximum 500 W assist for 20 minutes
> * "The Floyd" - provides a 100 W assist for 4 hours



Dumbass -

You forgot to mention:

* "The Chang" - provides a negative 100 W force for 4 hours

or

* "The Kveck" - provides a negative 2500 W force until 5 minutes after
the race has begun

thanks,

Fred. presented by Gringioni.

[Mark J.]

Fredmaster of Brainerd wrote:
> On Jun 2, 7:21 am, Frederick the Great > wrote:
>> Fredmaster of Brainerd > wrote:
>>
>>> I'd guess that they are not all over the bike path yet in
>>> part because they're expensive. 4 kg of Li-ion battery is
>>> a lot of money. It's within a Fattie Masters budget or even
>>> a dedicated century rider, though. I could see these
>>> showing up at El Tour de Tucson pretty soon.
>> Oh? You know somebody getting one?
>> Somebody who has done all the calculations?
>
> El Tour de Tucson has never really appealed to me
> because it seems to combine the expense and logistical
> nightmares (ie cluster****) of a race, with
> the sketchy inexperienced riders and crowding
> (ie cluster****) of a century (Fred ride). Plus I can
> ride those roads for free if I want.
> At least in a Norcal century club ride, the mid-ride stops
> tend to have something tasty like brownies or muffins,
> so there is mild added value to doing the organized ride.
>
> However, now that you mention it, the El Tour experience
> could be enlivened by a ChangSTRONG motor -
> I prefer to think of it as a medical device like an implanted
> pacemaker. It's to treat my Wattage Deficit Disorder.

I think you're really on to something here. Will the endless spam
promising "lists of doctors" tell me where I can get a TUE?

Mark J.

[Andre[_2_]]

On May 31, 7:47*pm, Anton Berlin > wrote:
> On May 31, 5:48*pm, DA74 > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 31, 12:59*pm, Anton Berlin > wrote:
>
> > > On May 31, 12:29*pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > On May 31, 10:18*am, Anton Berlin > wrote:
>
> > > > > I am going to side with the 'this may be happening' camp - *Here's why
> > > > > I think it's possible
>
> > > > > The crowds drown out the noise of the motor.
>
> > > > > An extra few pounds or kilos on a bike really wouldn't make much of a
> > > > > difference in a flat race (see analytical cycling)
>
> > > > > Tactics would allow the user just the advantage to blow up his
> > > > > opponents at critical times in the race. *They have to expel excess
> > > > > energy to counter the assisted move. *Even a few of these moves would
> > > > > be enough to make a difference in top level riders.
>
> > > > > Lastly he could use the assist to solo home in the last few kilos or
> > > > > to motor pace himself up to speed and then milk that speed for some
> > > > > time, then repeat. No rider could keep up with.
>
> > > > > Watching the spring classics I was amazed at Cancellera's superhuman
> > > > > efforts but now I am thinking there's some doubt.
>
> > > > > I expect that winner's bikes will be inspected and even bikes being
> > > > > changed out at critical times will now be examined as well.
>
> > > > > Is there any depth these guys won't stoop to in order to win a race?
>
> > > > > It almost makes Armstrong's decades long record of cheating seem
> > > > > admirable.
>
> > > > Dumbass -
>
> > > > Did you check out the video links in the "motorized doping" thread?
>
> > > > If the analysis is correct, he used the "assist" to get away. It looks
> > > > plausible.
>
> > > > If it's truem, there's only one penalty: lifetime ban. For the rider
> > > > and any others complicit. This goes way beyond doping.
>
> > > > thanks,
>
> > > > Fred. presented by Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > I watched one of them and it wasn't the hand movements that sold me.
> > > It was the realization that the crowds drown out the possible motor
> > > noise and then the relation of his effort to his pedaling and a mental
> > > comparison of all of the Eddy film archives that made me think this
> > > looks suspicious.
>
> > > I am going to check out the other videos- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I was highly about the technology until seeing the video actually
> > showing the race bike with the motor. It would be virtually impossible
> > to tell in a race setting if someone had this installed on their bike.
> > And you guys are right, with the crowd noise no one would ever hear
> > anything.
>
> > After seeing this I'd actually be surprised if it hasn't been used. I
> > can't make any determination as to Cancellara's hand movements - It
> > can be as simple as him going to shift but changing his mind. But it's
> > still plausible. Here it is for those who haven't seen the other
> > thread:
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE
>
> > Yes Cancellara rides away in the saddle like he's on a motorcycle at
> > both Roubaix and the Ronde but we have seen this kind of dominant
> > performance before. Take a quick look - Do you remember this LBL
> > victory?
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT_PCiT1jTU
>
> > -DA74- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> The video headline says it all "died at 34" *and the guy's drug list
> is as long as anyones.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Vandenbroucke_%28cyclist%29
>
> But otherwise a reasonable post.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Wouldn't they inspect the bike at the end of the race?

[F. Kurgan Gringioni]

"Andre" > wrote in message news:7d10a7d8-dabe-4dcb-802b->
> > Yes Cancellara rides away in the saddle like he's on a motorcycle at
> > both Roubaix and the Ronde but we have seen this kind of dominant
> > performance before. Take a quick look - Do you remember this LBL
> > victory?
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT_PCiT1jTU
>
> > -DA74- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> The video headline says it all "died at 34" and the guy's drug list
> is as long as anyones.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Vandenbroucke_%28cyclist%29
>
> But otherwise a reasonable post.-

:: Wouldn't they inspect the bike at the end of the race?



Dumbass -

Before this new cheating paradigm, there'd be no reason to.

thanks,

Fred. presented by Gringioni.

[Betty Munro]

Brad Anders wrote:
>> The units are as follows:
>>
>> * "The Cavendish" - provides a single 1500 W assist for 20 seconds.
>> * "The Fabian" - provides a maximum 500 W assist for 20 minutes
>> * "The Floyd" - provides a 100 W assist for 4 hours

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni. wrote:
> You forgot to mention:
>
> * "The Chang" - provides a negative 100 W force for 4 hours
>
> or
>
> * "The Kveck" - provides a negative 2500 W force until 5 minutes after
> the race has begun

Not to mention the Prius model which supplies 3000 watts at random
intervals.

[Brad Anders]

Did you see this wacko **** from Boardman?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/boardman-warned-the-uci-of-risks-of-bike-doping

"I sat at a meeting with the UCI last year and drew on the blackboard
exactly how this might work," Boardman told the Telegraph. "I showed
them some of the sophisticated boosting technology now available,
mainly from F1 teams, that can get a kilowatt out of a single AAA
battery."

I gotta get me some of those AAA's, they must be the CHRISStrong
brand. 667 A from a 1.5 V AAA is pretty damn good. Better yet, at
typical internal resistances of 0.08 ohm for an Li battery, these
puppies can shrug off 35KW of waste heat. That's kick-ass.

Brad Anders

[Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.]

On Jun 4, 9:51*am, Brad Anders > wrote:
> Did you see this wacko **** from Boardman?
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/boardman-warned-the-uci-of-risks-of-b...
>
> "I sat at a meeting with the UCI last year and drew on the blackboard
> exactly how this might work," Boardman told the Telegraph. "I showed
> them some of the sophisticated boosting technology now available,
> mainly from F1 teams, that can get a kilowatt out of a single AAA
> battery."
>
> I gotta get me some of those AAA's, they must be the CHRISStrong
> brand. 667 A from a 1.5 V AAA is pretty damn good. Better yet, at
> typical internal resistances of 0.08 ohm for an Li battery, these
> puppies can shrug off 35KW of waste heat. That's kick-ass.



Dumbass -

Maybe he meant one watt instead of a kilowatt.

Let's hope so.

If Boardman could get that sort of power out of a AAA, he could power
a car with a lunchbox sized power source. Dude would be worth a
trillion dollars.

thanks,

Fred. presented by Gringioni.

[Brad Anders]

Article by guy who examined Fabian's bike after Flanders and has pics
to prove it - nothing unusual.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4415/Fabian-Cancellaras-so-called-motorized-doping-debunked.aspx

Brad Anders

[dave a]

On 6/4/2010 4:04 PM, Brad Anders wrote:
> Article by guy who examined Fabian's bike after Flanders and has pics
> to prove it - nothing unusual.
>
> http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4415/Fabian-Cancellaras-so-called-motorized-doping-debunked.aspx
>
> Brad Anders

I suppose that it is just a coincidence that the article was written by
Jered Gruber.

[Keith]

On Fri, 04 Jun 2010 16:21:03 -0700, dave a
> wrote:

>On 6/4/2010 4:04 PM, Brad Anders wrote:
>> Article by guy who examined Fabian's bike after Flanders and has pics
>> to prove it - nothing unusual.
>>
>> http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/4415/Fabian-Cancellaras-so-called-motorized-doping-debunked.aspx
>>
>> Brad Anders
>
>I suppose that it is just a coincidence that the article was written by
>Jered Gruber.

Good catch, I was also surprised by the minute details on the
seatpost...