Cyclists dying in competition

[Tony Raven[_3_]]

Wikipedia carries a list of professional cyclists killed in competition
and the figures are intriguing.

In the 60's there were three, in the 70's four, in the 80's five, in the
90's three and in the 00's ten.

So in trying to understand why professional competition has apparently
become more dangerous in the last decade:

Were there more professional cyclists?
Were there more races taking place?
Were the pressures making competitors take more risk?
Were the improved track safety measures not doing their job?
Are Wikipedia contributors better at entering more recent incidents?
(although they manage to record 22 for the 1900's and 12 for the 1910's)
Are mandatory helmets having an negative effect?


And these are all incidents in which no motor vehicles were involved
although one is drugs related (Tommy Simpson)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_cyclists_who_died_during_a_ra ce


--
Tony

" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell

[Nick[_4_]]

On 26/06/2010 12:55, Tony Raven wrote:

> And these are all incidents in which no motor vehicles were involved

I checked the first hit by a truck.

[Paul - xxx[_2_]]

Tony Raven wrote:

> So in trying to understand why professional competition has
> apparently become more dangerous in the last decade:

Looking at the list I'd say more significant than your questions is the
observation that earlier years had far more track races and these days
there are far more road races with the commensurate increased risks of
hitting, say, street furniture, at speed in an accident than there was
'before' .. however ...

The numbers don't say anything as they stand, it'd be more of interest
indicating the mechanics of how they died and what they died of, which
would probably answer your questions better than a yes/no, which is how
you phrased them. I seriously doubt there's a simple yes/no answer to
your questions.

Look at the deaths during traing .. the first four have little to do
with actual cycle racing/organisation/safety measures as such .. and a
lot are 'hit by car' ..

--
Paul - xxx

'96/'97 Landrover Discovery 300 Tdi
Dyna Tech Cro-Mo comp

[Tony Raven[_3_]]

Nick wrote:
> On 26/06/2010 12:55, Tony Raven wrote:
>
>> And these are all incidents in which no motor vehicles were involved
>
> I checked the first hit by a truck.

I stand corrected, one hit by a truck, one hit by a car.

--
Tony

" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell

[Tony Raven[_3_]]

Paul - xxx wrote:
>
> The numbers don't say anything as they stand, it'd be more of interest
> indicating the mechanics of how they died and what they died of, which
> would probably answer your questions better than a yes/no, which is how
> you phrased them. I seriously doubt there's a simple yes/no answer to
> your questions.

I agree and at this stage its no more than an interesting observation.
I was looking more for insight into some of the questions. For example
I don't know whether its just there are more professional racers
covering more miles in races in recent years

>
> Look at the deaths during traing .. the first four have little to do
> with actual cycle racing/organisation/safety measures as such .. and a
> lot are 'hit by car' ..
>

Yes but many of those were killed out on the roads whereas most
professional races are on tracks or closed roads where motor traffic
should not be a significant factor (although as it turns out at least
four were hit by vehicles but two of those on open road races). There
is also a drug factor in the deaths in earlier years and there seem to
be a few heart attacks (two of the ten in the 00's).

Not seeking to make any big point, just curiosity and an interesting
observation.


--
Tony

" I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
Bertrand Russell

[Just zis Guy, you know?[_2_]]

On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 12:55:42 +0100, Tony Raven >
wrote:

>Wikipedia carries a list of professional cyclists killed in competition
>and the figures are intriguing.
>
>In the 60's there were three, in the 70's four, in the 80's five, in the
>90's three and in the 00's ten.

Bob Davies has been considering this for a while. His (empirical)
observation is that riders are now riding closer to each other in
bunch sprints and the like, with results like the horrific pile-ups on
a couple of recent Tours. I guess the pressure on pro riders is only
ever going to go up, but it is odd that racing seems to be getting
more dangerous.

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/
The usenet price promise: all opinions offered in newsgroups are guaranteed
to be worth the price paid.

[Paul - xxx[_2_]]

Tony Raven wrote:

> Paul - xxx wrote:
> >
> > The numbers don't say anything as they stand, it'd be more of
> > interest indicating the mechanics of how they died and what they
> > died of, which would probably answer your questions better than a
> > yes/no, which is how you phrased them. I seriously doubt there's a
> > simple yes/no answer to your questions.
>
> I agree and at this stage its no more than an interesting
> observation. I was looking more for insight into some of the
> questions. For example I don't know whether its just there are more
> professional racers covering more miles in races in recent years
>
> >
> > Look at the deaths during traing .. the first four have little to do
> > with actual cycle racing/organisation/safety measures as such ..
> > and a lot are 'hit by car' ..
> >
>
> Yes but many of those were killed out on the roads whereas most
> professional races are on tracks or closed roads where motor traffic
> should not be a significant factor (although as it turns out at least
> four were hit by vehicles but two of those on open road races).
> There is also a drug factor in the deaths in earlier years and there
> seem to be a few heart attacks (two of the ten in the 00's).
>
> Not seeking to make any big point, just curiosity and an interesting
> observation.

Fair comments.

I've had a little look into the others who died during a race, (clicked
the links to the riders entries on Wiki) without going into specifics
.....

Many died after a crash during the actual race, either colliding with
another rider or simply going down, but apart from this there's little
pattern that I can see. There are a few who died after hitting
something that shouldn't have been there, truck, car, dog!

Personally I think it's pure tough luck if someone dies during a race.
Anyone competing in anything stands a chance of dying .. horse riding,
car racing, mountain climbing, long distance running ... accidents
happen during any kind of racing/competition. Everyone's pushing to
and beyond the edge, it's part of the danger/thrill of competition,
sometimes something happens that hurts. Part of life.

I reckon if we analyse stuff like this too much or too deeply someone,
with big influence and an axe to grind, somewhere will decide it's too
dangerous to continue and stop it altogether.

I also subscribe to the view that the more 'safety items' are
introduced, the more the participants feel safer and take more risks
..... ;)

--
Paul - xxx

'96/'97 Landrover Discovery 300 Tdi
Dyna Tech Cro-Mo comp

[Paul - xxx[_2_]]

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:

> On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 12:55:42 +0100, Tony Raven >
> wrote:
>
> > Wikipedia carries a list of professional cyclists killed in
> > competition and the figures are intriguing.
> >
> > In the 60's there were three, in the 70's four, in the 80's five,
> > in the 90's three and in the 00's ten.
>
> Bob Davies has been considering this for a while. His (empirical)
> observation is that riders are now riding closer to each other in
> bunch sprints and the like, with results like the horrific pile-ups on
> a couple of recent Tours. I guess the pressure on pro riders is only
> ever going to go up, but it is odd that racing seems to be getting
> more dangerous.

Could part of that also be that humans are reaching a point where their
muscle development, say, has reached somewhat of a peak or plateau and
that more professional riders are now much closer in development than
they ever were? As they're all riding similar equipment and putting
out similar power then everyone is looking for that extra millimetre at
the same time.

I dunno how close races used to be though ... ;)

I'll never forget Abdoujaparovs sprint somersaults ..

--
Paul - xxx

'96/'97 Landrover Discovery 300 Tdi
Dyna Tech Cro-Mo comp

[Just zis Guy, you know?[_2_]]

On 26 Jun 2010 14:48:40 GMT, "Paul - xxx" >
wrote:

>Could part of that also be that humans are reaching a point where their
>muscle development, say, has reached somewhat of a peak or plateau and
>that more professional riders are now much closer in development than
>they ever were? As they're all riding similar equipment and putting
>out similar power then everyone is looking for that extra millimetre at
>the same time.

I really don't know. Maybe the widespread use of doping had achieved a
situation where people were more even than before, or maybe not. It
would be an interesting topic to study.

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/
The usenet price promise: all opinions offered in newsgroups are guaranteed
to be worth the price paid.

[thirty-six]

On 26 June, 12:55, Tony Raven > wrote:
> Wikipedia carries a list of professional cyclists killed in competition
> and the figures are intriguing.
>
> In the 60's there were three, in the 70's four, in the 80's five, in the
> 90's three and in the 00's ten.
>
> So in trying to understand why professional competition has apparently
> become more dangerous in the last decade:
>
> Were there more professional cyclists?
> Were there more races taking place?
> Were the pressures making competitors take more risk?
> Were the improved track safety measures not doing their job?
> Are Wikipedia contributors better at entering more recent incidents?
> (although they manage to record 22 for the 1900's and 12 for the 1910's)
> Are mandatory helmets having an negative effect?
>
> And these are all incidents in which no motor vehicles were involved
> although one is drugs related (Tommy Simpson)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_cyclists_who_died_d...
>
> --
> Tony
>
> " I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
> Bertrand Russell

The rewards are bigger, and everyday life can be so predictable that
the riders are willing to take bigger risks in their preparation
(including drugs) and racing.

[Just zis Guy, you know?[_2_]]

On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 08:57:48 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six
> wrote:

>The rewards are bigger, and everyday life can be so predictable that
>the riders are willing to take bigger risks in their preparation
>(including drugs) and racing.

More so than in the days of Tom Simpson? I think you might need some
kind of proof there. I believe you'd also find it hard to come up with
anyone much more competitive than Merckx or Hinault, in any era of pro
cycling.

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/
The usenet price promise: all opinions offered in newsgroups are guaranteed
to be worth the price paid.

[thirty-six]

On 26 June, 17:57, "Just zis Guy, you know?" >
wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 08:57:48 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six
>
> > wrote:
> >The rewards are bigger, and everyday life can be so predictable that
> >the riders are willing to take bigger risks in their preparation
> >(including drugs) and racing.
>
> More so than in the days of Tom Simpson? I think you might need some
> kind of proof there. I believe you'd also find it hard to come up with
> anyone much more competitive than Merckx or Hinault, in any era of pro
> cycling.
>
> Guy
> --http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/
> The usenet price promise: all opinions offered in newsgroups are guaranteed
> to be worth the price paid.

obviously not hard enough

[thirty-six]

On 26 June, 17:57, "Just zis Guy, you know?" >
wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 08:57:48 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six
>
> > wrote:
> >The rewards are bigger, and everyday life can be so predictable that
> >the riders are willing to take bigger risks in their preparation
> >(including drugs) and racing.
>
> More so than in the days of Tom Simpson? I think you might need some
> kind of proof there. I believe you'd also find it hard to come up with
> anyone much more competitive than Merckx or Hinault, in any era of pro
> cycling.
>
> Guy
> --http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/
> The usenet price promise: all opinions offered in newsgroups are guaranteed
> to be worth the price paid.

of course they did tell you, the effects of concussion may be delayed
for two days, did they not? And before you think to ask, although it
seems you have always read from a crib sheet, I CBA looking for proof
of that.

[Just zis Guy, you know?[_2_]]

On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 10:15:37 -0700 (PDT), thirty-six
> wrote:

>> > wrote:
>> >The rewards are bigger, and everyday life can be so predictable that
>> >the riders are willing to take bigger risks in their preparation
>> >(including drugs) and racing.

>> More so than in the days of Tom Simpson? I think you might need some
>> kind of proof there. I believe you'd also find it hard to come up with
>> anyone much more competitive than Merckx or Hinault, in any era of pro
>> cycling.

>of course they did tell you, the effects of concussion may be delayed
>for two days, did they not? And before you think to ask, although it
>seems you have always read from a crib sheet, I CBA looking for proof
>of that.

Aside from being an ad-hominem (and thus fallacious), that remark is
crass in the extreme.

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/
The usenet price promise: all opinions offered in newsgroups are guaranteed
to be worth the price paid.