Michael J. Vandeman going to trial.

[Bill Weir]

Mark your calendar.

Date
12/10/2010

Time
09:00 AM

Dept.
111

Proceeding
JURY TRIAL

Cue psychotic Edward Dolan, broken record rant.

[y_p_w]

On Oct 28, 12:04*pm, Bill Weir > wrote:
> Mark your calendar.

"Lynn Valley B&B encounters the wrath of Vandeman"
http://www.bclocalnews.com/community/105357658.html

The following is referencing a letter Vandeman wrote to a little known
bed & breakfast owner decrying his marketing towards mountain bike
riders.

**quote**
For a laugh, Knowles decided to forward the letter to a couple friends
at local mountain bike shops, and posted it to the blog on his
business’ website. On Oct. 3, the day before Vandeman’s letter
arrived, the Lynn Valley Bed and Breakfast website had four visits. On
Oct. 4, they had 552 hits. And on Oct. 5, 675. In total, their website
has received 3,300 hits from 54 countries.

“He hasn’t done his cause any good or bad, but he’s done my cause a
lot of good,” said Knowles.

“I offered him free accommodation as a thank you. I doubt he’ll take
me up on it but the offer stands.”
**unquote**

[[email protected]]

On Oct 28, 4:01*pm, y_p_w > wrote:
> On Oct 28, 12:04*pm, Bill Weir > wrote:
>
> > Mark your calendar.
>
> "Lynn Valley B&B encounters the wrath of Vandeman"http://www.bclocalnews.com/community/105357658.html
>
> The following is referencing a letter Vandeman wrote to a little known
> bed & breakfast owner decrying his marketing towards mountain bike
> riders.
>
> **quote**
> For a laugh, Knowles decided to forward the letter to a couple friends
> at local mountain bike shops, and posted it to the blog on his
> business’ website. On Oct. 3, the day before Vandeman’s letter
> arrived, the Lynn Valley Bed and Breakfast website had four visits. On
> Oct. 4, they had 552 hits. And on Oct. 5, 675. In total, their website
> has received 3,300 hits from 54 countries.
>
> “He hasn’t done his cause any good or bad, but he’s done my cause a
> lot of good,” said Knowles.
>
> “I offered him free accommodation as a thank you. I doubt he’ll take
> me up on it but the offer stands.”
> **unquote**

Someone should inform Mikey of the Law of Unintended Consequences.

[T. Keating]

On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 13:01:59 -0700 (PDT), y_p_w >
wrote:

>On Oct 28, 12:04*pm, Bill Weir > wrote:
>> Mark your calendar.
>
>"Lynn Valley B&B encounters the wrath of Vandeman"
>http://www.bclocalnews.com/community/105357658.html
>
>The following is referencing a letter Vandeman wrote to a little known
>bed & breakfast owner decrying his marketing towards mountain bike
>riders.
>
>**quote**
>For a laugh, Knowles decided to forward the letter to a couple friends
>at local mountain bike shops, and posted it to the blog on his
>business’ website. On Oct. 3, the day before Vandeman’s letter
>arrived, the Lynn Valley Bed and Breakfast website had four visits. On
>Oct. 4, they had 552 hits. And on Oct. 5, 675. In total, their website
>has received 3,300 hits from 54 countries.
>
>“He hasn’t done his cause any good or bad, but he’s done my cause a
>lot of good,” said Knowles.
>
>“I offered him free accommodation as a thank you. I doubt he’ll take
>me up on it but the offer stands.”
>**unquote**


Vandeman probably won't take up that offer if Canadian customs is
doing their job..

from...
http://www.wikihow.com/Travel-to-Canada-with-a-Felony-Charge

"Do your research beforehand. Despite some internet information out
there, a criminal conviction does not automatically bar you from
entry; however, it can make it very difficult. Canada requires that
all persons convicted apply for rehabilitation before entry.
Rehabilitation considers that five years have passed since probation
or parole sentences have finished or since an incident for which you
were not charged (but may still be on your record)."

"Be prepared to pay.
In order to file for Rehabilitation certification, Canada can impose
an application fee from $200 to over $1,000. The amount you will pay
is tied into the seriousness of your conviction."

Given Mike was age 67 when recently arrested, plus he must serve
whatever sentence his is given, tack on another five years, plus
another year for processing.. He'll be well into his seventies before
he can clear Canadian customs.

[Edward Dolan]

"y_p_w" > wrote in message
...
On Oct 28, 12:04 pm, Bill Weir > wrote:
> Mark your calendar.

>> "Lynn Valley B&B encounters the wrath of Vandeman"
http://www.bclocalnews.com/community/105357658.html

>> The following is referencing a letter Vandeman wrote to a little known
bed & breakfast owner decrying his marketing towards mountain bike
riders.

>> **quote**
For a laugh, Knowles decided to forward the letter to a couple friends
at local mountain bike shops, and posted it to the blog on his
business’ website. On Oct. 3, the day before Vandeman’s letter
arrived, the Lynn Valley Bed and Breakfast website had four visits. On
Oct. 4, they had 552 hits. And on Oct. 5, 675. In total, their website
has received 3,300 hits from 54 countries.

>> “He hasn’t done his cause any good or bad, but he’s done my cause a
lot of good,” said Knowles.

>> “I offered him free accommodation as a thank you. I doubt he’ll take
me up on it but the offer stands.”
**unquote**

A bed and breakfast that caters to mountain bikers is beneath contempt. It
is difficult to say what the ultimate good or bad is of a message that is
communicated to 3,300 souls, even if most of them are slobs. Mr. Vandeman
has accomplished exactly what he wished to accomplish, which is to get his
message as widely disseminated as possible. Many mountain bikers have no
idea how the rest of the world regards them. Now they do.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Edward Dolan]

"T. Keating" > wrote in message
...
[...]
> Vandeman probably won't take up that offer if Canadian customs is
> doing their job..
>
> from...
> http://www.wikihow.com/Travel-to-Canada-with-a-Felony-Charge
>
> "Do your research beforehand. Despite some internet information out
> there, a criminal conviction does not automatically bar you from
> entry; however, it can make it very difficult. Canada requires that
> all persons convicted apply for rehabilitation before entry.
> Rehabilitation considers that five years have passed since probation
> or parole sentences have finished or since an incident for which you
> were not charged (but may still be on your record)."
>
> "Be prepared to pay.
> In order to file for Rehabilitation certification, Canada can impose
> an application fee from $200 to over $1,000. The amount you will pay
> is tied into the seriousness of your conviction."
>
> Given Mike was age 67 when recently arrested, plus he must serve
> whatever sentence his is given, tack on another five years, plus
> another year for processing.. He'll be well into his seventies before
> he can clear Canadian customs.

Mr. Vandeman would not be caught dead in BC. It is the land of slob mountain
bikers. But Canadians are slobs overall. Americans are slobs too of course,
but Canadian slobs are in a class of their own. As bad as the situation is
in BC, there are some few brave souls there fighting the good fight. One of
them is worth a thousand of the others.

Every time a mountain biker kills himself doing his thing, I rejoice - one
less slob in the world. I say ****'em all!

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Jeff Strickland[_2_]]

"Edward Dolan" > wrote in message
...
> "y_p_w" > wrote in message
> ...
> On Oct 28, 12:04 pm, Bill Weir > wrote:
>> Mark your calendar.
>
>>> "Lynn Valley B&B encounters the wrath of Vandeman"
> http://www.bclocalnews.com/community/105357658.html
>
>>> The following is referencing a letter Vandeman wrote to a little known
> bed & breakfast owner decrying his marketing towards mountain bike
> riders.
>
>>> **quote**
> For a laugh, Knowles decided to forward the letter to a couple friends
> at local mountain bike shops, and posted it to the blog on his
> business’ website. On Oct. 3, the day before Vandeman’s letter
> arrived, the Lynn Valley Bed and Breakfast website had four visits. On
> Oct. 4, they had 552 hits. And on Oct. 5, 675. In total, their website
> has received 3,300 hits from 54 countries.
>
>>> “He hasn’t done his cause any good or bad, but he’s done my cause a
> lot of good,” said Knowles.
>
>>> “I offered him free accommodation as a thank you. I doubt he’ll take
> me up on it but the offer stands.”
> **unquote**
>
> A bed and breakfast that caters to mountain bikers is beneath contempt. It
> is difficult to say what the ultimate good or bad is of a message that is
> communicated to 3,300 souls, even if most of them are slobs. Mr. Vandeman
> has accomplished exactly what he wished to accomplish, which is to get his
> message as widely disseminated as possible. Many mountain bikers have no
> idea how the rest of the world regards them. Now they do.
>
> Regards,
>

It doesn't matter what you think, Ed.

The B&B that was the target of Vandeman's misplaced outrage has seen an
increase in interest from 4 visitors to over 3,000 visitors. Surely some of
those have booked stays, which is good for the business involved. YOU won't
be placing your reservations anytime soon because you despise anything that
remotely resembles fun, but clearly the masses are reacting with enthusiasm.

I'm certain that Vandeman did not wish to increase the patronage of the
establishment, therefore by any measure, his message is a dud from his
perspective. Mike's message served to ATTRACT visitors, clearly the
anti-message he intended.

[Edward Dolan]

"Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
...
> "Edward Dolan" > wrote in message
[...]
>> A bed and breakfast that caters to mountain bikers is beneath contempt.
>> It is difficult to say what the ultimate good or bad is of a message that
>> is communicated to 3,300 souls, even if most of them are slobs. Mr.
>> Vandeman has accomplished exactly what he wished to accomplish, which is
>> to get his message as widely disseminated as possible. Many mountain
>> bikers have no idea how the rest of the world regards them. Now they do.
>
> It doesn't matter what you think, Ed.
>
> The B&B that was the target of Vandeman's misplaced outrage has seen an
> increase in interest from 4 visitors to over 3,000 visitors. Surely some
> of those have booked stays, which is good for the business involved. YOU
> won't be placing your reservations anytime soon because you despise
> anything that remotely resembles fun, but clearly the masses are reacting
> with enthusiasm.

Fun is for kids. Grow up why don't you!

> I'm certain that Vandeman did not wish to increase the patronage of the
> establishment, therefore by any measure, his message is a dud from his
> perspective. Mike's message served to ATTRACT visitors, clearly the
> anti-message he intended.

Mr. Vandeman does not give a damn about the establishment. All he cares
about is getting his message to as wide an audience as possible. The
business owner played right into his hands. At least an additional 3000
persons, some of whom are slobs no doubt, now know that mountain biking is a
despised activity only engaged in by asshole-idiots.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Tom Sherman °_°[_2_]]

On 10/28/2010 2:04 PM, Bill Weir wrote:
> Mark your calendar.
>
> Date
> 12/10/2010
>
> Time
> 09:00 AM
>
> Dept.
> 111
>
> Proceeding
> JURY TRIAL
>[...]

Is Mike "Handsaw" Vandeman's Usenet posting history admissible evidence
as to intent?

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

[Edward Dolan]

"Tom Sherman °_°" > wrote in message
...
[...]
> Is Mike "Handsaw" Vandeman's Usenet posting history admissible evidence as
> to intent?

Nothing on Usenet is admissible to anyone who has any brains. Usenet is the
province of asshole-idiots like you and me.

Be thankful no one takes Usenet seriously or else you might be getting a
visit from the Mossad. As it is, you just have me around to kick your dumb
ass.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Opus[_2_]]

On Oct 28, 10:00*pm, Tom Sherman °_°
> wrote:
> On 10/28/2010 2:04 PM, Bill Weir wrote:
>
> > Mark your calendar.
>
> > Date
> > 12/10/2010
>
> > Time
> > 09:00 AM
>
> > Dept.
> > 111
>
> > Proceeding
> > JURY TRIAL
> >[...]
>
> Is Mike "Handsaw" Vandeman's Usenet posting history admissible evidence
> as to intent?
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
> I am a vehicular cyclist.

ASAIK yes it is, as a publicly published writing. Provenance would
have to be proved of course, as the recent rash of fake Mikeys proves,
but anything published under his name prior to the events is
admissible into the record to establish intent and premeditation.

[Jeff Strickland[_2_]]

"Edward Dolan" > wrote in message
...
> "Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Edward Dolan" > wrote in message
> [...]
>>> A bed and breakfast that caters to mountain bikers is beneath contempt.
>>> It is difficult to say what the ultimate good or bad is of a message
>>> that is communicated to 3,300 souls, even if most of them are slobs. Mr.
>>> Vandeman has accomplished exactly what he wished to accomplish, which is
>>> to get his message as widely disseminated as possible. Many mountain
>>> bikers have no idea how the rest of the world regards them. Now they do.
>>
>> It doesn't matter what you think, Ed.
>>
>> The B&B that was the target of Vandeman's misplaced outrage has seen an
>> increase in interest from 4 visitors to over 3,000 visitors. Surely some
>> of those have booked stays, which is good for the business involved. YOU
>> won't be placing your reservations anytime soon because you despise
>> anything that remotely resembles fun, but clearly the masses are reacting
>> with enthusiasm.
>
> Fun is for kids. Grow up why don't you!
>

Fun is for everybody. If you actually had any kids instead of devoting your
life to hating them, you'd appreciate that.

[Tom Sherman °_°[_2_]]

On 10/29/2010 2:19 AM, Edward Dolan wrote:
> [...]
> Be thankful no one takes Usenet seriously or else you might be getting a
> visit from the Mossad.[...]

They are too busy with false flag operations. However, it would not be
surprising if they used violence to silence negative public opinion.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

[Edward Dolan]

"Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Edward Dolan" > wrote in message
[...]
>> Fun is for kids. Grow up why don't you!
>
> Fun is for everybody. If you actually had any kids instead of devoting
> your life to hating them, you'd appreciate that.

Fun is for kids. An adult trying to have fun is the most pathetic sight in
the world.

The only kids I hate are the grown up kind who ride mountain bikes on hiking
trails. I also hate slobs who drive their motor vehicles off road.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Edward Dolan]

"Opus" > wrote in message
...
On Oct 28, 10:00 pm, Tom Sherman
[...]
> Is Mike "Handsaw" Vandeman's Usenet posting history admissible evidence
> as to intent?
>
>> ASAIK [???] yes it is, as a publicly published writing. Provenance would
have to be proved of course, as the recent rash of fake Mikeys proves,
but anything published under his name prior to the events is
admissible into the record to establish intent and premeditation.

Well, if the above is true, then you ought to be locked up in a mental
institution for being a blithering idiot. Try to say something sensible
before you croak, why don't you!

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Edward Dolan]

"Tom Sherman °_°" > wrote in message
...
> On 10/29/2010 2:19 AM, Edward Dolan wrote:
>> [...]
>> Be thankful no one takes Usenet seriously or else you might be getting a
>> visit from the Mossad.[...]
>
> They are too busy with false flag operations. However, it would not be
> surprising if they used violence to silence negative public opinion.

You probably do not like our own intelligence services either. If Hitler had
been assassinated early in his career a lot of trouble could have been
avoided.

Your positive opinion of the Palestinian terrorists is what is going to get
us all killed. It is actually a form of treason. It is the chief reason why
I hate liberals as much as I do.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Tom Sherman °_°[_2_]]

On 10/29/2010 8:50 PM, Edward Dolan wrote:
> "Tom Sherman > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 10/29/2010 2:19 AM, Edward Dolan wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> Be thankful no one takes Usenet seriously or else you might be getting a
>>> visit from the Mossad.[...]
>>
>> They are too busy with false flag operations. However, it would not be
>> surprising if they used violence to silence negative public opinion.
>
> You probably do not like our own intelligence services either. If Hitler had
> been assassinated early in his career a lot of trouble could have been
> avoided.
>
Violence of that sort is generally the provenance of the right-wing.

> Your positive opinion of the Palestinian terrorists is what is going to get
> us all killed. It is actually a form of treason. It is the chief reason why
> I hate liberals as much as I do.
>
So you think it was acceptable for the Israelis to kill U.S. sailors on
the USS Liberty? What is treasonous is for U.S. citizens, and
particularly those in government, to put the interests of a foreign
country ahead of the U.S.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

[Edward Dolan]

"Tom Sherman °_°" > wrote in message
...
> On 10/29/2010 8:50 PM, Edward Dolan wrote:
>> "Tom Sherman > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On 10/29/2010 2:19 AM, Edward Dolan wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>> Be thankful no one takes Usenet seriously or else you might be getting
>>>> a
>>>> visit from the Mossad.[...]
>>>
>>> They are too busy with false flag operations. However, it would not be
>>> surprising if they used violence to silence negative public opinion.
>>
>> You probably do not like our own intelligence services either. If Hitler
>> had
>> been assassinated early in his career a lot of trouble could have been
>> avoided.
>>
> Violence of that sort is generally the provenance of the right-wing.

Hitler was left-wing (NAZI means National Socialism). So was Stalin, Mao,
Pol Pot - all mass murderers. The right-wing only kills by the handful, not
the bucketful like the left-wing.

>> Your positive opinion of the Palestinian terrorists is what is going to
>> get
>> us all killed. It is actually a form of treason. It is the chief reason
>> why
>> I hate liberals as much as I do.
>>
> So you think it was acceptable for the Israelis to kill U.S. sailors on
> the USS Liberty?

It was not intentional. What is your problem?

> What is treasonous is for U.S. citizens, and particularly those in
> government, to put the interests of a foreign country ahead of the U.S.

What is treason is to give comfort to the enemy. You do that by sympathizing
with Palestinian terrorists. Israel is our only reliable ally in the region
and a true friend. What the Palestinian terrorists have done to Israel is
what the Islamic terrorists mean to do to us. Apparently you will only
awaken from your slumbers when you are being blown high sky by an Islamic
nuclear weapon.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Jeff Strickland[_2_]]

"Edward Dolan" > wrote in message
...
> "Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Edward Dolan" > wrote in message
> [...]
>>> Fun is for kids. Grow up why don't you!
>>
>> Fun is for everybody. If you actually had any kids instead of devoting
>> your life to hating them, you'd appreciate that.
>
> Fun is for kids. An adult trying to have fun is the most pathetic sight in
> the world.

....which is why you, Ed, are a loser. You have wasted your life away, and
now think that everybody else is wrong. You are pathetic, really.

[Edward Dolan]

"Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Edward Dolan" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Edward Dolan" > wrote in message
>> [...]
>>>> Fun is for kids. Grow up why don't you!
>>>
>>> Fun is for everybody. If you actually had any kids instead of devoting
>>> your life to hating them, you'd appreciate that.
>>
>> Fun is for kids. An adult trying to have fun is the most pathetic sight
>> in the world.
>
> ...which is why you, Ed, are a loser. You have wasted your life away, and
> now think that everybody else is wrong. You are pathetic, really.

It is OK for you to drive your g.d. jeep off the highway, but NOT off the
road. You do that and you are "the worst person in the world".

I spend my time these days listening to the music of the great composers,
but I know that is beyond you and your ilk. You are trying to be a kid
again, playing at having fun! I leave it to others to decide who is the
greater jackass!

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[SMS]

On 10/28/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Weir wrote:
> Mark your calendar.
>
> Date
> 12/10/2010
>
> Time
> 09:00 AM
>
> Dept.
> 111
>
> Proceeding
> JURY TRIAL

Very surprising that no plea bargain was reached, but it's not too late.

[Tom Sherman °_°[_2_]]

On 10/31/2010 10:25 AM, SMS wrote:
> On 10/28/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Weir wrote:
>> Mark your calendar.
>>
>> Date
>> 12/10/2010
>>
>> Time
>> 09:00 AM
>>
>> Dept.
>> 111
>>
>> Proceeding
>> JURY TRIAL
>
> Very surprising that no plea bargain was reached, but it's not too late.

Not surprising when you consider the defendant is a whacko-nut.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

[Wolf Leverich]

On 2010-10-30, Edward Dolan > wrote:

> Hitler was left-wing


That single meme is arguably the most stupid thing I have
heard in about three decades on USENET.

And that's saying quite a lot.

Love, Wolf.

[Tom Sherman °_°[_2_]]

On 10/31/2010 4:11 PM, Wolf Leverich wrote:
> On 2010-10-30, Edward > wrote:
>
>> Hitler was left-wing
>
>
> That single meme is arguably the most stupid thing I have
> heard in about three decades on USENET.
>
> And that's saying quite a lot.
>
> Love, Wolf.

Actually, portraying past fascists as left-wing is a current favorite of
the right-wing shouting heads on television and radio. Lie loud and
long enough, and many will believe.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

[Tom Sherman °_°[_2_]]

On 10/30/2010 1:18 AM, Edward Dolan wrote:
> "Tom Sherman > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 10/29/2010 8:50 PM, Edward Dolan wrote:
>>> "Tom Sherman > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> On 10/29/2010 2:19 AM, Edward Dolan wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>> Be thankful no one takes Usenet seriously or else you might be getting
>>>>> a
>>>>> visit from the Mossad.[...]
>>>>
>>>> They are too busy with false flag operations. However, it would not be
>>>> surprising if they used violence to silence negative public opinion.
>>>
>>> You probably do not like our own intelligence services either. If Hitler
>>> had
>>> been assassinated early in his career a lot of trouble could have been
>>> avoided.
>>>
>> Violence of that sort is generally the provenance of the right-wing.
>
> Hitler was left-wing (NAZI means National Socialism). So was Stalin, Mao,
> Pol Pot - all mass murderers. The right-wing only kills by the handful, not
> the bucketful like the left-wing.
>
>>> Your positive opinion of the Palestinian terrorists is what is going to
>>> get
>>> us all killed. It is actually a form of treason. It is the chief reason
>>> why
>>> I hate liberals as much as I do.
>>>
>> So you think it was acceptable for the Israelis to kill U.S. sailors on
>> the USS Liberty?
>
> It was not intentional. What is your problem?
>
>> What is treasonous is for U.S. citizens, and particularly those in
>> government, to put the interests of a foreign country ahead of the U.S.
>
> What is treason is to give comfort to the enemy. You do that by sympathizing
> with Palestinian terrorists. Israel is our only reliable ally in the region
> and a true friend. What the Palestinian terrorists have done to Israel is
> what the Islamic terrorists mean to do to us. Apparently you will only
> awaken from your slumbers when you are being blown high sky by an Islamic
> nuclear weapon.
>
Oh Ed, you must stop listening to so much talk radio.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

[PMH]

On Oct 31, 5:47*pm, Tom Sherman °_°
> wrote:
> On 10/30/2010 1:18 AM, Edward Dolan wrote:
>
> > "Tom Sherman _ > *wrote in message
> ...
> >> On 10/29/2010 8:50 PM, Edward Dolan wrote:
> >>> "Tom Sherman _ > * wrote in message
> ...
> >>>> On 10/29/2010 2:19 AM, Edward Dolan wrote:
> >>>>> [...]
> >>>>> Be thankful no one takes Usenet seriously or else you might be getting
> >>>>> a
> >>>>> visit from the Mossad.[...]
>
> >>>> They are too busy with false flag operations. *However, it would not be
> >>>> surprising if they used violence to silence negative public opinion.
>
> >>> You probably do not like our own intelligence services either. If Hitler
> >>> had
> >>> been assassinated early in his career a lot of trouble could have been
> >>> avoided.
>
> >> Violence of that sort is generally the provenance of the right-wing.
>
> > Hitler was left-wing (NAZI means National Socialism). So was Stalin, Mao,
> > Pol Pot - all mass murderers. The right-wing only kills by the handful, not
> > the bucketful like the left-wing.
>
> >>> Your positive opinion of the Palestinian terrorists is what is going to
> >>> get
> >>> us all killed. It is actually a form of treason. It is the chief reason
> >>> why
> >>> I hate liberals as much as I do.
>
> >> So you think it was acceptable for the Israelis to kill U.S. sailors on
> >> the USS Liberty?
>
> > It was not intentional. What is your problem?
>
> >> What is treasonous is for U.S. citizens, and particularly those in
> >> government, to put the interests of a foreign country ahead of the U.S..
>
> > What is treason is to give comfort to the enemy. You do that by sympathizing
> > with Palestinian terrorists. Israel is our only reliable ally in the region
> > and a true friend. What the Palestinian terrorists have done to Israel is
> > what the Islamic terrorists mean to do to us. Apparently you will only
> > awaken from your slumbers when you are being blown high sky by an Islamic
> > nuclear weapon.
>
> Oh Ed, you must stop listening to so much talk radio.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
> I am a vehicular cyclist.

Actually, it seems the only things Saint Edward listens to is his own
mewling and the voices inside his head.

[SMS]

On 10/31/2010 8:57 AM, Tom Sherman °_° wrote:
> On 10/31/2010 10:25 AM, SMS wrote:
>> On 10/28/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Weir wrote:
>>> Mark your calendar.
>>>
>>> Date
>>> 12/10/2010
>>>
>>> Time
>>> 09:00 AM
>>>
>>> Dept.
>>> 111
>>>
>>> Proceeding
>>> JURY TRIAL
>>
>> Very surprising that no plea bargain was reached, but it's not too late.
>
> Not surprising when you consider the defendant is a whacko-nut.

Still, you'd think his lawyer would have been able to convince him to
accept a plea bargain if one was offered. Could be the D.A. sees this as
such an open and shut case that he/she wasn't willing to offer much. The
fact that the mountain bikers were violating U.C.'s rules on bikes on
trails is no defense. Nor is the fact that he probably only intended to
scare them away and not do bodily harm. The fact that he admitted
contacting one of the victims with the saw means that he can't claim
that he never touched them. Should be an interesting trial.

[Edward Dolan]

"Wolf Leverich" > wrote in message
...
> On 2010-10-30, Edward Dolan > wrote:
>
>> Hitler was left-wing
>
>
> That single meme is arguably the most stupid thing I have
> heard in about three decades on USENET.
>
> And that's saying quite a lot.
>
> Love, Wolf.

First, get a dictionary definition of NAZI. Then read about the history of
the movement in all its aspects. Finally, get back to me when you have done
the aforementioned tasks and maybe we can discuss the subject intelligently.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Edward Dolan]

"Tom Sherman °_°" > wrote in message
...
> On 10/31/2010 4:11 PM, Wolf Leverich wrote:
>> On 2010-10-30, Edward > wrote:
>>
>>> Hitler was left-wing
>>
>>
>> That single meme is arguably the most stupid thing I have
>> heard in about three decades on USENET.
>>
>> And that's saying quite a lot.
>>
>> Love, Wolf.
>
> Actually, portraying past fascists as left-wing is a current favorite of
> the right-wing shouting heads on television and radio. Lie loud and long
> enough, and many will believe.

"Nazism (Nationalsozialismus, National Socialism; alternatively spelled
Naziism" - Wikipedia

Socialism is right-wing?

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Edward Dolan]

"PMH" > wrote in message
...
On Oct 31, 5:47 pm, Tom Sherman
[...]
> Oh Ed, you must stop listening to so much talk radio.

>>Actually, it seems the only things Saint Edward listens to is his own
mewling and the voices inside his head.

Actually, I have given up on talk radio - too much advertising. Instead, I
like my online Town Hall commentary articles, all written by good solid
conservatives.

Tomorrow I go to vote and I am voting AGAINST every god damn liberal *******
in sight. They are all socialists (left-wingers) at heart as is Tom Sherman.
After I have voted, I will watch Fox News exclusively in order to get the
'right' view of the event. After all, we know the liberal media will be
spinning it their way no matter what.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Edward Dolan]

"Tom Sherman °_°" > wrote in message
...
[...]
> Not surprising when you consider the defendant is a whacko-nut.

The only whacko-nut I know about for sure is one that goes by the name of
Tom Sherman. He confuses Hitler with the Pope, not realizing that one is a
lefty and the other is a righty. Why he does not attack the other lefties,
like Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, is a mystery to me since he does attack the
Left-Wing Hitler. How was Hitler any different than Stalin? They were both
lefties to the core, just like Tom Sherman that way.

Alas, the only cure for Tom Sherman as I see it is the dreaded Spanish
Inquisition. Any lesser treatment will not cure him of his
liberal-socialist-communist fantasies.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Tom Sherman °_°[_2_]]

On 11/1/2010 4:54 PM, Edward Dolan wrote:
> "Tom Sherman > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 10/31/2010 4:11 PM, Wolf Leverich wrote:
>>> On 2010-10-30, Edward > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hitler was left-wing
>>>
>>>
>>> That single meme is arguably the most stupid thing I have
>>> heard in about three decades on USENET.
>>>
>>> And that's saying quite a lot.
>>>
>>> Love, Wolf.
>>
>> Actually, portraying past fascists as left-wing is a current favorite of
>> the right-wing shouting heads on television and radio. Lie loud and long
>> enough, and many will believe.
>
> "Nazism (Nationalsozialismus, National Socialism; alternatively spelled
> Naziism" - Wikipedia
>
> Socialism is right-wing?
>
Only Ed Dolan would accuse the Nazis of truth in advertising. If Ed
Dolan remembered his history, he would realize the Nazis purged the
socialist elements: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives>.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

[Tom Sherman °_°[_2_]]

On 11/1/2010 5:24 PM, Edward Dolan wrote:
> [...]
> Alas, the only cure for Tom Sherman as I see it is the dreaded Spanish
> Inquisition.

I wasn't expecting a kind of Inquisition!

> Any lesser treatment will not cure him of his
> liberal-socialist-communist fantasies.
>
Will they poke me with soft pillows with the stuffing all at one end,
and make me sit in the Comfy Chair?

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

[Edward Dolan]

"Tom Sherman °_°" > wrote in message
...
> On 11/1/2010 4:54 PM, Edward Dolan wrote:
[...]
>> "Nazism (Nationalsozialismus, National Socialism; alternatively spelled
>> Naziism" - Wikipedia
>>
>> Socialism is right-wing?
>>
> Only Ed Dolan would accuse the Nazis of truth in advertising. If Ed Dolan
> remembered his history, he would realize the Nazis purged the socialist
> elements: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives>.

Leftists always end up fighting among themselves sooner or later. Also, it
is important how a group starts out, not how it ends up. Maybe you could
have helped Hitler name his group better if you have been there along side
him?

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Tom Sherman °_°[_2_]]

On 11/1/2010 3:57 PM, SMS wrote:
> On 10/31/2010 8:57 AM, Tom Sherman °_° wrote:
>> On 10/31/2010 10:25 AM, SMS wrote:
>>> On 10/28/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Weir wrote:
>>>> Mark your calendar.
>>>>
>>>> Date
>>>> 12/10/2010
>>>>
>>>> Time
>>>> 09:00 AM
>>>>
>>>> Dept.
>>>> 111
>>>>
>>>> Proceeding
>>>> JURY TRIAL
>>>
>>> Very surprising that no plea bargain was reached, but it's not too late.
>>
>> Not surprising when you consider the defendant is a whacko-nut.
>
> Still, you'd think his lawyer would have been able to convince him to
> accept a plea bargain if one was offered. Could be the D.A. sees this as
> such an open and shut case that he/she wasn't willing to offer much. The
> fact that the mountain bikers were violating U.C.'s rules on bikes on
> trails is no defense. Nor is the fact that he probably only intended to
> scare them away and not do bodily harm. The fact that he admitted
> contacting one of the victims with the saw means that he can't claim
> that he never touched them. Should be an interesting trial.

Maybe the plea deal included a ban on Usenet posting?

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

[ZeeTso]

"Edward Dolan" > wrote in message
...

> What is treason is to give comfort to the enemy. You do that by
> sympathizing with Palestinian terrorists. Israel is our only reliable ally
> in the region and a true friend. What the Palestinian terrorists have done
> to Israel is what the Islamic terrorists mean to do to us. Apparently you
> will only awaken from your slumbers when you are being blown high sky by
> an Islamic nuclear weapon.

spaeking of awakening, try reading this if you dare:

http://tinyurl.com/34wat6h

[PMH]

On Nov 1, 6:24*pm, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:

>
> The only whacko-nut I know about for sure is one that goes by the name of
> . . . . .

Have you tried a mirror?

> Why . . . does not attack the other lefties,
> like Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot,

Probably because they're dead.

[Opus[_2_]]

On Nov 1, 4:49*pm, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:
> "Wolf Leverich" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > On 2010-10-30, Edward Dolan > wrote:
>
> >> Hitler was left-wing
>
> > That single meme is arguably the most stupid thing I have
> > heard in about three decades on USENET.
>
> > And that's saying quite a lot.
>
> > Love, Wolf.
>
> First, get a dictionary definition of NAZI. Then read about the history of
> the movement in all its aspects. Finally, get back to me when you have done
> the aforementioned tasks and maybe we can discuss the subject intelligently.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
> aka
> Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

The Nazi party was only socialist in name, they were fascists to the
core. Government of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the
corporations forever. The purging of "useless eaters" was the opposite
of socialism, along with the bizarre racial philosophies.I suggest a
history book to go with that dictionary.

[JimmyMac]

On Oct 28, 6:51*pm, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:
> "y_p_w" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Oct 28, 12:04 pm, Bill Weir > wrote:
>
> > Mark your calendar.
> >> "Lynn Valley B&B encounters the wrath of Vandeman"
>
> http://www.bclocalnews.com/community/105357658.html
>
> >> The following is referencing a letter Vandeman wrote to a little known
>
> bed & breakfast owner decrying his marketing towards mountain bike
> riders.
>
> >> **quote**
>
> For a laugh, Knowles decided to forward the letter to a couple friends
> at local mountain bike shops, and posted it to the blog on his
> business website. On Oct. 3, the day before Vandeman s letter
> arrived, the Lynn Valley Bed and Breakfast website had four visits. On
> Oct. 4, they had 552 hits. And on Oct. 5, 675. In total, their website
> has received 3,300 hits from 54 countries.
>
> >> He hasn t done his cause any good or bad, but he s done my cause a
>
> lot of good, said Knowles.
>
> >> I offered him free accommodation as a thank you. I doubt he ll take
>
> me up on it but the offer stands.
> **unquote**
>
> A bed and breakfast that caters to mountain bikers is beneath contempt. It
> is difficult to say what the ultimate good or bad is of a message that is
> communicated to 3,300 souls, even if most of them are slobs. Mr. Vandeman
> has accomplished exactly what he wished to accomplish, which is to get his
> message as widely disseminated as possible. Many mountain bikers have no
> idea how the rest of the world regards them. Now they do.

You mean how the criminal Vandeman and you regard mountain bikers.
Dissemination of a message and concurrence with a message are not one
and the same, and to think otherwise is to think like ... well, the
irrational and illogical twins ... Mike and Ed.

> Regards,
>
> Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
> aka
> Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[JimmyMac]

On Nov 1, 6:37*pm, Tom Sherman °_°
> wrote:
> On 11/1/2010 3:57 PM, SMS wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 10/31/2010 8:57 AM, Tom Sherman _ wrote:
> >> On 10/31/2010 10:25 AM, SMS wrote:
> >>> On 10/28/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Weir wrote:
> >>>> Mark your calendar.
>
> >>>> Date
> >>>> 12/10/2010
>
> >>>> Time
> >>>> 09:00 AM
>
> >>>> Dept.
> >>>> 111
>
> >>>> Proceeding
> >>>> JURY TRIAL
>
> >>> Very surprising that no plea bargain was reached, but it's not too late.
>
> >> Not surprising when you consider the defendant is a whacko-nut.
>
> > Still, you'd think his lawyer would have been able to convince him to
> > accept a plea bargain if one was offered. Could be the D.A. sees this as
> > such an open and shut case that he/she wasn't willing to offer much. The
> > fact that the mountain bikers were violating U.C.'s rules on bikes on
> > trails is no defense. Nor is the fact that he probably only intended to
> > scare them away and not do bodily harm. The fact that he admitted
> > contacting one of the victims with the saw means that he can't claim
> > that he never touched them. Should be an interesting trial.
>
> Maybe the plea deal included a ban on Usenet posting?

.... OR perhaps a year of community service as mountain bike mechanic?

> --
> Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
> I am a vehicular cyclist.

[Edward Dolan]

"JimmyMac" > wrote in message
...
On Oct 28, 6:51 pm, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:
[...]
> A bed and breakfast that caters to mountain bikers is beneath contempt. It
> is difficult to say what the ultimate good or bad is of a message that is
> communicated to 3,300 souls, even if most of them are slobs. Mr. Vandeman
> has accomplished exactly what he wished to accomplish, which is to get his
> message as widely disseminated as possible. Many mountain bikers have no
> idea how the rest of the world regards them. Now they do.

>> You mean how the criminal Vandeman and you regard mountain bikers.
Dissemination of a message and concurrence with a message are not one
and the same, and to think otherwise is to think like ... well, the
irrational and illogical twins ... Mike and Ed.

Mr. Vandeman knows just as I do that repetition is the basis of all
learning. Knowledge has to be pounded into dunderheads. There is no other
way.

> Regards,
>
> Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
> aka
> Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Edward Dolan]

"Opus" > wrote in message
...
On Nov 1, 4:49 pm, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:
[...]

> First, get a dictionary definition of NAZI. Then read about the history of
> the movement in all its aspects. Finally, get back to me when you have
> done
> the aforementioned tasks and maybe we can discuss the subject
> intelligently.

>> The Nazi party was only socialist in name, they were fascists to the
core. Government of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the
corporations forever. The purging of "useless eaters" was the opposite
of socialism, along with the bizarre racial philosophies.I suggest a
history book to go with that dictionary.

It was strictly a leftist movement when it started out, not much different
than any other socialism. How a movement ends up is another story. Communism
was an even more "pure" form of socialism, but it ended up even worse. The
truth is that none of them work without the application of severe force.

It amuses me no end that others think Hitler and his group did not know what
they were doing and had mislabeled themselves. If he had ended his
aggression at the seizure of the Sudetenland he would today be regarded
higher than Bismarck and the Germans would be singing his praises for all
eternity.

By the way, here is the sequence: liberalism to socialism to communism to
.... a failed society! Thugs end up running everything. Citizens become
subjects. I prefer the old-fashioned oriental despotism myself of a
Nebuchadnezzar because it is more honest.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Edward Dolan]

"PMH" > wrote in message
...
On Nov 1, 6:24 pm, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:
> The only whacko-nut I know about for sure is one that goes by the name of
> . . . . .

>> Have you tried a mirror?

> Why . . . does not attack the other lefties,
> like Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot,

>> Probably because they're dead.

So is Hitler, but that does not prevent Tom Sherman from thinking bad
thoughts about him. So far as I know, he has never had any bad thoughts
about Hitler's alter ego - Joe Stalin.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[JimmyMac]

On Nov 2, 10:33*pm, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:
> "JimmyMac" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Oct 28, 6:51 pm, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:
> [...]
>
> > A bed and breakfast that caters to mountain bikers is beneath contempt. It
> > is difficult to say what the ultimate good or bad is of a message that is
> > communicated to 3,300 souls, even if most of them are slobs. Mr. Vandeman
> > has accomplished exactly what he wished to accomplish, which is to get his
> > message as widely disseminated as possible. Many mountain bikers have no
> > idea how the rest of the world regards them. Now they do.
> >> You mean how the criminal Vandeman and you regard mountain bikers.
>
> Dissemination of a message and concurrence with a message are not one
> and the same, and to think otherwise is to think like ... well, the
> irrational and illogical twins ... Mike and Ed.
>
> Mr. Vandeman knows just as I do that repetition is the basis of all
> learning. Knowledge has to be pounded into dunderheads. There is no other
> way.

The first thing they'll teach in any public speaking course is that
you should "Tell 'em what you're gonna tell 'em, then tell 'em, and
then tell 'em what you told 'em." Unfortunately, Ed and Mike think
that's all there is to making one's point, with no substantiation
required. Both expect,even demand, that readers to accept what they
say merely because they are the ones saying it. Making an assertion,
failing to justify it, and then stating it again and again proves
nothing and impresses no one. Argumentum ad nauseam (argument to the
point of disgust; i.e., by repetition) is a logical fallacy of trying
to prove something by saying it again and again. Both Ed and Mike
employ this failed technique in many of their posts. No matter how
many times either repeats something, it does not and will not become
any more true than it was with the first utterance. This is an
elementary concept that neither Ed nor Mike have learned to recognize
and/or accept. Before attempting to enlighten others, both are in
need of their own enlightenment. Neither Ed No Mike have learned that
to be heard one must first learn to listen. The conundrum continues!

>
> > Regards,
>
> > Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
> > aka
> > Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Edward Dolan]

"JimmyMac" > wrote in message
...
On Nov 2, 10:33 pm, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:
[...]
> Mr. Vandeman knows just as I do that repetition is the basis of all
> learning. Knowledge has to be pounded into dunderheads. There is no other
> way.

>> The first thing they'll teach in any public speaking course is that
you should "Tell 'em what you're gonna tell 'em, then tell 'em, and
then tell 'em what you told 'em." Unfortunately, Ed and Mike think
that's all there is to making one's point, with no substantiation
required. Both expect,even demand, that readers to accept what they
say merely because they are the ones saying it. Making an assertion,
failing to justify it, and then stating it again and again proves
nothing and impresses no one. Argumentum ad nauseam (argument to the
point of disgust; i.e., by repetition) is a logical fallacy of trying
to prove something by saying it again and again. Both Ed and Mike
employ this failed technique in many of their posts. No matter how
many times either repeats something, it does not and will not become
any more true than it was with the first utterance. This is an
elementary concept that neither Ed nor Mike have learned to recognize
and/or accept. Before attempting to enlighten others, both are in
need of their own enlightenment. Neither Ed No Mike have learned that
to be heard one must first learn to listen. The conundrum continues!

Both Mr. Vandeman and I will say what needs to be said, but we will not
waste much time and effort on idiots. Most facts are self-evident, unless
you are an idiot of course. Idiots should only talk to other idiots. It is
why I recommend that you engage TM. You are out of your class with one so
GREAT as MYSELF!

> > Regards,
>
> > Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
> > aka
> > Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[ZeeTso]

"Edward Dolan" > wrote in message
...

> Idiots should only talk to other idiots. It is why I recommend that you
> engage TM. You are out of your class with one so GREAT as MYSELF!

well said, you are the greatest! :)))

[Dr. Brian Leverich]

On 2010-11-01, Edward Dolan > wrote:
> "Wolf Leverich" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 2010-10-30, Edward Dolan > wrote:
>>
>>> Hitler was left-wing
>>
>>
>> That single meme is arguably the most stupid thing I have
>> heard in about three decades on USENET.
>>
>> And that's saying quite a lot.
>>
>> Love, Wolf.
>
> First, get a dictionary definition of NAZI. Then read about the history of
> the movement in all its aspects. Finally, get back to me when you have done
> the aforementioned tasks and maybe we can discuss the subject intelligently.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
> aka
> Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota


Ed -

I've forgotten more about history than you've learned in
your entire life. Probably by more than an order of magnitude.

If I tell you that you've said something idiotic with respect
to history or political science, you have. ;-)

Love, Wolf.

[JimmyMac]

On Nov 4, 2:49*am, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:
> "JimmyMac" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Nov 2, 10:33 pm, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:
> [...]
>
> > Mr. Vandeman knows just as I do that repetition is the basis of all
> > learning. Knowledge has to be pounded into dunderheads. There is no other
> > way.
> >> The first thing they'll teach in any public speaking course is that
>
> you should "Tell 'em what you're gonna tell 'em, then tell 'em, and
> then tell 'em what you told 'em." *Unfortunately, Ed and Mike think
> that's all there is to making one's point, with no substantiation
> required. *Both expect,even demand, that readers to accept what they
> say merely because they are the ones saying it. *Making an assertion,
> failing to justify it, and then stating it again and again proves
> nothing and impresses no one. *Argumentum ad nauseam (argument to the
> point of disgust; i.e., by repetition) is a logical fallacy of trying
> to prove something by saying it again and again. *Both Ed and Mike
> employ this failed technique in many of their posts. *No matter how
> many times either repeats something, it does not and will not become
> any more true than it was with the first utterance. *This is an
> elementary concept that neither Ed nor Mike have learned to recognize
> and/or accept. *Before attempting to enlighten others, both are in
> need of their own enlightenment. *Neither Ed nor Mike have learned that
> to be heard one must first learn to listen. *The conundrum continues!
>
> Both Mr. Vandeman and I will say what needs to be said,

AND few will listen and most will take issue whether they respond or
not.

> but we will not waste much time and effort on idiots.

You claim TM is an idiot and no matter what you say to the contrary
have devoted lots of time and effort to him.

> Most facts

FACTS ... from the guy who abhors facts and is all about opinion?

> are self-evident, unless
> you are an idiot of course. Idiots should only talk to other idiots. It is
> why I recommend that you engage TM. You are out of your class with one so
> GREAT as MYSELF!

I said it before, but since you keep repeating your recommendation, I
will again repeat that I have no interest to engage TM. I will allow
you to fruitlessly struggle and embarrass yourself. You are in a
class all your own alright, one into whose depths I hope never to
descend.

> > > Regards,
>
> > > Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
> > > aka
> > > Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Bob Berger[_2_]]

In article >, Dr. Brian
Leverich says...
>
>On 2010-11-01, Edward Dolan > wrote:
>> "Wolf Leverich" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On 2010-10-30, Edward Dolan > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hitler was left-wing
>>>
>>>
>>> That single meme is arguably the most stupid thing I have
>>> heard in about three decades on USENET.
>>>
>>> And that's saying quite a lot.
>>>
>>> Love, Wolf.
>>
>> First, get a dictionary definition of NAZI. Then read about the history of
>> the movement in all its aspects. Finally, get back to me when you have done
>> the aforementioned tasks and maybe we can discuss the subject intelligently.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
>> aka
>> Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
>
>
>Ed -
>
>I've forgotten more about history than you've learned in
>your entire life.

I have the same problem. I guess it comes with getting old.

Sorry, I couldn't resist that. :-)


>Probably by more than an order of magnitude.
>
>If I tell you that you've said something idiotic with respect
>to history or political science, you have. ;-)
>
>Love, Wolf.

[SMS]

On 10/28/2010 1:01 PM, y_p_w wrote:

<snip>

> “I offered him free accommodation as a thank you. I doubt he’ll take
> me up on it but the offer stands.”
> **unquote**

It was nice of him to offer Vandeman free accommodation, but hopefully
the State of California will soon offer him the same deal for a much
longer period of time, in a gated community, with three meals a day.

[SMS]

On 10/28/2010 3:31 PM, T. Keating wrote:

> Vandeman probably won't take up that offer if Canadian customs is
> doing their job..

<snip>

But he has no conviction yet. Unless the judge confiscated his passport
he could go there prior to the trial.

[Jeff Strickland[_2_]]

"SMS" > wrote in message
...
> On 10/28/2010 1:01 PM, y_p_w wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> “I offered him free accommodation as a thank you. I doubt he’ll take
>> me up on it but the offer stands.”
>> **unquote**
>
> It was nice of him to offer Vandeman free accommodation, but hopefully
> the State of California will soon offer him the same deal for a much
> longer period of time, in a gated community, with three meals a day.


Vandeman will be given an ankle bracelet and told to stay in his musty
little apartment when he's not at work. There is no room at the gated
communities in California.

[y_p_w]

On Nov 4, 11:16*am, SMS > wrote:
> On 10/28/2010 1:01 PM, y_p_w wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > I offered him free accommodation as a thank you. I doubt he ll take
> > me up on it but the offer stands.
> > **unquote**
>
> It was nice of him to offer Vandeman free accommodation, *but hopefully
> the State of California will soon offer him the same deal for a much
> longer period of time, in a gated community, with three meals a day.

The costs would probably be borne by Alameda County for a misdemeanor
conviction. It would either be Santa Rita Jail in Dublin or the
smaller Dyer Detention Facility in Oakland. I thought that the latter
was typically for those held awaiting trial, although they do seem to
hold a few convicted inmates.

[SMS]

On 04/11/10 11:45 AM, Jeff Strickland wrote:

> Vandeman will be given an ankle bracelet and told to stay in his musty
> little apartment when he's not at work. There is no room at the gated
> communities in California.

The minimum sentence for the felony is probation and a fine, the maximum
is 4 years in State Prison. You're right, he'd likely get probation
since it's a first offense.

[Jeff Strickland[_2_]]

"y_p_w" > wrote in message
...
On Nov 4, 11:16 am, SMS > wrote:
> On 10/28/2010 1:01 PM, y_p_w wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > I offered him free accommodation as a thank you. I doubt he ll take
> > me up on it but the offer stands.
> > **unquote**
>
> It was nice of him to offer Vandeman free accommodation, but hopefully
> the State of California will soon offer him the same deal for a much
> longer period of time, in a gated community, with three meals a day.

The costs would probably be borne by Alameda County for a misdemeanor
conviction. It would either be Santa Rita Jail in Dublin or the
smaller Dyer Detention Facility in Oakland. I thought that the latter
was typically for those held awaiting trial, although they do seem to
hold a few convicted inmates.



<JS>
They would have to plea bargain to the misdemeanor, he's been charged with
felony assault for swinging his tree-saw at innocent people.


</JS>

[Edward Dolan]

"JimmyMac" > wrote in message
...
On Nov 4, 2:49 am, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:
[...]
> but we will not waste much time and effort on idiots.

>> You claim TM is an idiot and no matter what you say to the contrary
have devoted lots of time and effort to him.

Copy and paste ...

> Most facts

>> FACTS ... from the guy who abhors facts and is all about opinion?

Facts are contemptible - the last refuge of scoundrels and cowards. I give
you Tom Sherman as an example of the species.

> are self-evident, unless
> you are an idiot of course. Idiots should only talk to other idiots. It is
> why I recommend that you engage TM. You are out of your class with one so
> GREAT as MYSELF!

>> I said it before, but since you keep repeating your recommendation, I
will again repeat that I have no interest to engage TM. I will allow
you to fruitlessly struggle and embarrass yourself. You are in a
class all your own alright, one into whose depths I hope never to
descend.

You are already lower than TM since he is not a stalker like you.

> > > Regards,
>
> > > Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
> > > aka
> > > Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Edward Dolan]

"Dr. Brian Leverich" > wrote in message
...
> On 2010-11-01, Edward Dolan > wrote:
>> "Wolf Leverich" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On 2010-10-30, Edward Dolan > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hitler was left-wing
>>>
>>>
>>> That single meme is arguably the most stupid thing I have
>>> heard in about three decades on USENET.
>>>
>>> And that's saying quite a lot.
>>>
>>> Love, Wolf.
>>
>> First, get a dictionary definition of NAZI. Then read about the history
>> of
>> the movement in all its aspects. Finally, get back to me when you have
>> done
>> the aforementioned tasks and maybe we can discuss the subject
>> intelligently.
>
> Ed -
>
> I've forgotten more about history than you've learned in
> your entire life. Probably by more than an order of magnitude.

If you learned whatever it is you think you know in an academic institution,
then you have been brainwashed. All academics are liberal *******s - and
gutless into the bargain too!

> If I tell you that you've said something idiotic with respect
> to history or political science, you have. ;-)

Hitler was left-wing! Obama is left-wing too! But apparently not left-wing
enough for Tom Sherman. Only a Stalin comes up to his high standards.

Glad I was able to clear everything up for you.

>> Regards,
>>
>> Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
>> aka
>> Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Edward Dolan]

"Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
...
[...]
> They would have to plea bargain to the misdemeanor, he's been charged with
> felony assault for swinging his tree-saw at innocent people.

What innocent people would that be? The mountain bikers? We KNOW they were
the instigators because all mountain bikers who ride their bikes on hiking
trails are asshole-idiots. It I had my way, they would be summarily executed
on the spot. And then we hikers and all true lovers of wilderness would line
up to **** on their graves. I say ****'em!

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Jeff Strickland[_2_]]

"Edward Dolan" > wrote in message
...
> "Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
> ...
> [...]
>> They would have to plea bargain to the misdemeanor, he's been charged
>> with felony assault for swinging his tree-saw at innocent people.
>
> What innocent people would that be? The mountain bikers? We KNOW they were
> the instigators because all mountain bikers who ride their bikes on hiking
> trails are asshole-idiots. It I had my way, they would be summarily
> executed on the spot. And then we hikers and all true lovers of wilderness
> would line up to **** on their graves. I say ****'em!
>



Your view and the law are not aligned on this one. Your butt-buddy,
Vandeman, assaulted people with a saw. That is felony assault, if he is
convicted. Nobody gives a rat's ass how "innocent" the bike riders are, they
didn't assault anybody. So, we all say, **** you. **** you.

[Edward Dolan]

"Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Edward Dolan" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> [...]
>>> They would have to plea bargain to the misdemeanor, he's been charged
>>> with felony assault for swinging his tree-saw at innocent people.
>>
>> What innocent people would that be? The mountain bikers? We KNOW they
>> were the instigators because all mountain bikers who ride their bikes on
>> hiking trails are asshole-idiots. It I had my way, they would be
>> summarily executed on the spot. And then we hikers and all true lovers of
>> wilderness would line up to **** on their graves. I say ****'em!
>
> Your view and the law are not aligned on this one. Your butt-buddy,
> Vandeman, assaulted people with a saw. That is felony assault, if he is
> convicted. Nobody gives a rat's ass how "innocent" the bike riders are,
> they didn't assault anybody. So, we all say, **** you. **** you.

Your asshole-idiot criminal mountain bikers are guilty as hell of being
where they were not suppose to be. If we had a sane society, instead of a
****ed-up California, they would be publicly pilloried and spat upon by the
women and children of the land. Only I am of high enough status to **** on
them.

Instead we have a criminal off-road motorist like you who wants to drive his
g.d. jeep wherever. Get off your lazy ass and hike the trails like God and
Saint Edward the Great intended. You will feel better both physically and
mentally and not want to write bad words like "**** you". Otherwise I am
afraid you are a prime candidate for the dreaded Spanish Inquisition!

****ing Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Tom Sherman °_°[_2_]]

On 11/4/2010 9:00 PM, Edward Dolan wrote:
> [...] Otherwise I am
> afraid you are a prime candidate for the dreaded Spanish Inquisition!

The Spanish Inquisition in action:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uprjmoSMJ-o>.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

[y_p_w]

On Nov 4, 5:29*pm, "Jeff Strickland" > wrote:
> "Edward Dolan" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > "Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
> ...
> > [...]
> >> They would have to plea bargain to the misdemeanor, he's been charged
> >> with felony assault for swinging his tree-saw at innocent people.
>
> > What innocent people would that be? The mountain bikers? We KNOW they were
> > the instigators because all mountain bikers who ride their bikes on hiking
> > trails are asshole-idiots. It I had my way, they would be summarily
> > executed on the spot. And then we hikers and all true lovers of wilderness
> > would line up to **** on their graves. I say ****'em!
>
> Your view and the law are not aligned on this one. Your butt-buddy,
> Vandeman, assaulted people with a saw. That is felony assault, if he is
> convicted. Nobody gives a rat's ass how "innocent" the bike riders are, they
> didn't assault anybody.

Yeah - it's a wide fire road with signage and enforcement that's been
spotty at best as to whether or not it was actually against the rules
to ride a bicycle there. It's wide enough for large maintenance
vehicles, and hardly singletrack. I've never heard of UCPD arresting
or even citing anyone for riding a bike there.

http://www.wikiloc.com/wikiloc/view.do?id=224452

The question I'd like to know is why Vandeman was on University of
California property with a handsaw - likely carried in order to do
unauthorized trail maintenance?

There are signs all over campus stating that the right to pass on
University property can be revoked. I could imagine staying off of UC
property could be a condition of a sentence.

[Edward Dolan]

"y_p_w" > wrote in message
...
On Nov 4, 5:29 pm, "Jeff Strickland" > wrote:
> "Edward Dolan" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > "Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
> ...
> > [...]
> >> They would have to plea bargain to the misdemeanor, he's been charged
> >> with felony assault for swinging his tree-saw at innocent people.
>
> > What innocent people would that be? The mountain bikers? We KNOW they
> > were
> > the instigators because all mountain bikers who ride their bikes on
> > hiking
> > trails are asshole-idiots. It I had my way, they would be summarily
> > executed on the spot. And then we hikers and all true lovers of
> > wilderness
> > would line up to **** on their graves. I say ****'em!
>
> Your view and the law are not aligned on this one. Your butt-buddy,
> Vandeman, assaulted people with a saw. That is felony assault, if he is
> convicted. Nobody gives a rat's ass how "innocent" the bike riders are,
> they
> didn't assault anybody.

>>>> Yeah - it's a wide fire road with signage and enforcement that's been
spotty at best as to whether or not it was actually against the rules
to ride a bicycle there. It's wide enough for large maintenance
vehicles, and hardly singletrack. I've never heard of UCPD arresting
or even citing anyone for riding a bike there.

Of course not! The whole state of California is so ****ed-up it doesn't know
whether it is coming or going. The only state more ****ed up than California
is Minnesota. Both states are infested with liberals like Tom Sherman. What
the hell do you expect?

All mountain bikers who ride their bikes on hiking trails should be drawn
and quartered. After that, they can be remanded to the Spanish Inquisition
who will know how to dispose of their rotten souls.

Ed Dolan the Great in congruence with Saint Edward the Great says ****'em!

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Edward Dolan]

"Tom Sherman °_°" > wrote in message
...
> On 11/4/2010 9:00 PM, Edward Dolan wrote:
>> [...] Otherwise I am
>> afraid you are a prime candidate for the dreaded Spanish Inquisition!
>
> The Spanish Inquisition in action:
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uprjmoSMJ-o>.

Woe to those who do not believe in the Spanish Inquisition! Tom Sherman
believes in liberalism, socialism and communism (and maybe the unicorn fot
all I know) ... but not the Spanish Inquisition. Yea, he will surely reap
the tortures of the comfy chair and then he will be sorry!

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Tom Sherman °_°[_2_]]

On 11/5/2010 12:55 AM, Edward Dolan wrote:
> "Tom Sherman > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 11/4/2010 9:00 PM, Edward Dolan wrote:
>>> [...] Otherwise I am
>>> afraid you are a prime candidate for the dreaded Spanish Inquisition!
>>
>> The Spanish Inquisition in action:
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uprjmoSMJ-o>.
>
> Woe to those who do not believe in the Spanish Inquisition! Tom Sherman
> believes in liberalism, socialism and communism (and maybe the unicorn fot

<http://mingle2.com/dating/unicorn>

> all I know) ... but not the Spanish Inquisition. Yea, he will surely reap
> the tortures of the comfy chair and then he will be sorry!
>
Not the Comfy Chair!

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

[Edward Dolan]

"Tom Sherman °_°" > wrote in message
...
> On 11/5/2010 12:55 AM, Edward Dolan wrote:
>> "Tom Sherman > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On 11/4/2010 9:00 PM, Edward Dolan wrote:
>>>> [...] Otherwise I am
>>>> afraid you are a prime candidate for the dreaded Spanish Inquisition!
>>>
>>> The Spanish Inquisition in action:
>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uprjmoSMJ-o>.
>>
>> Woe to those who do not believe in the Spanish Inquisition! Tom Sherman
>> believes in liberalism, socialism and communism (and maybe the unicorn
>> [...]
>
> <http://mingle2.com/dating/unicorn>

I attribute Tom Sherman's lowly sense of humor to a scientific and technical
education (he is a civil engineer). If he had majored in the liberal arts
like me he would be totally devoid of a sense of humor. We scholars think
the universe is about as funny as warmed over death.

Yea, I have not had a good laugh since I was 12 years old. I think it was
due to a Laurel and Hardy short film about them having a fracas with their
wives. I decided then and there that I never wanted to be married. Instead
here I am 60 years later saddled with 12 cats who are eating me out of house
and home.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[JimmyMac]

On Nov 4, 5:15*pm, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:
> "JimmyMac" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Nov 4, 2:49 am, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:
> [...]
>
> > but we will not waste much time and effort on idiots.
> >> You claim TM is an idiot and no matter what you say to the contrary
>
> have devoted lots of time and effort to him.
>
> Copy and paste ...
>
> > Most facts
> >> FACTS ... from the guy who abhors facts and is all about opinion?
>
> Facts are contemptible - the last refuge of scoundrels and cowards. I give
> you Tom Sherman as an example of the species.
>
> > are self-evident, unless
> > you are an idiot of course. Idiots should only talk to other idiots. It is
> > why I recommend that you engage TM. You are out of your class with one so
> > GREAT as MYSELF!
> >> I said it before, but since you keep repeating your recommendation, I
>
> will again repeat that I have no interest to engage TM. *I will allow
> you to fruitlessly struggle and embarrass yourself. *You are in a
> class all your own alright, one into whose depths I hope never to
> descend.
>
> You are already lower than TM since he is not a stalker like you.

AND you who are a troll as well!

> > > > Regards,
>
> > > > Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
> > > > aka
> > > > Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[JimmyMac]

On Nov 4, 6:17*pm, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:
> "Jeff Strickland" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> [...]
>
> > They would have to plea bargain to the misdemeanor, he's been charged with
> > felony assault for swinging his tree-saw at innocent people.
>
> What innocent people would that be? The mountain bikers? We KNOW they were
> the instigators because all mountain bikers who ride their bikes on hiking
> trails are asshole-idiots. It I had my way, they would be summarily executed
> on the spot. And then we hikers and all true lovers of wilderness would line
> up to **** on their graves. I say ****'em!

HEAD Dolan the GRATE ... ever the voice of reason!!!

>
> Regards,
>
> Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
> aka
> Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[SMS]

On 11/4/2010 3:06 PM, Jeff Strickland wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ...
> On Nov 4, 11:16 am, > wrote:
>> On 10/28/2010 1:01 PM, y_p_w wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> I offered him free accommodation as a thank you. I doubt he ll take
>>> me up on it but the offer stands.
>>> **unquote**
>>
>> It was nice of him to offer Vandeman free accommodation, but hopefully
>> the State of California will soon offer him the same deal for a much
>> longer period of time, in a gated community, with three meals a day.
>
> The costs would probably be borne by Alameda County for a misdemeanor
> conviction. It would either be Santa Rita Jail in Dublin or the
> smaller Dyer Detention Facility in Oakland. I thought that the latter
> was typically for those held awaiting trial, although they do seem to
> hold a few convicted inmates.
>
>
>
> <JS>
> They would have to plea bargain to the misdemeanor, he's been charged with
> felony assault for swinging his tree-saw at innocent people.

I checked the minimum sentence requirements for his alleged crime, and
jail is not required even for a felony conviction. He could get a fine
and probation if convicted.

[SMS]

On 04/11/10 9:25 PM, y_p_w wrote:

> Yeah - it's a wide fire road with signage and enforcement that's been
> spotty at best as to whether or not it was actually against the rules
> to ride a bicycle there. It's wide enough for large maintenance
> vehicles, and hardly singletrack. I've never heard of UCPD arresting
> or even citing anyone for riding a bike there.

Often a property owner will put signs up to limit their liability in
case of an accident. If a cyclist got injured on a road that's signed
"No Bicycles" then the property owner isn't responsible for maintaining
the road in a condition safe for cyclists. In this case, clearly the
property owner was fine with bicycles using that road since they did not
enforce the ban. In any case, the fact that the bicyclists were breaking
UC rules has no bearing on the facts of the attack.

> The question I'd like to know is why Vandeman was on University of
> California property with a handsaw - likely carried in order to do
> unauthorized trail maintenance?
>
> There are signs all over campus stating that the right to pass on
> University property can be revoked. I could imagine staying off of UC
> property could be a condition of a sentence.

With or without a conviction, UC has the right to ban him from their
property.

[SMS]

On 28/10/10 1:01 PM, y_p_w wrote:
> On Oct 28, 12:04 pm, Bill > wrote:
>> Mark your calendar.
>
> "Lynn Valley B&B encounters the wrath of Vandeman"
> http://www.bclocalnews.com/community/105357658.html
>
> The following is referencing a letter Vandeman wrote to a little known
> bed& breakfast owner decrying his marketing towards mountain bike
> riders.
>
> **quote**
> For a laugh, Knowles decided to forward the letter to a couple friends
> at local mountain bike shops, and posted it to the blog on his
> business’ website. On Oct. 3, the day before Vandeman’s letter
> arrived, the Lynn Valley Bed and Breakfast website had four visits. On
> Oct. 4, they had 552 hits. And on Oct. 5, 675. In total, their website
> has received 3,300 hits from 54 countries.
>
> “He hasn’t done his cause any good or bad, but he’s done my cause a
> lot of good,” said Knowles.
>
> “I offered him free accommodation as a thank you. I doubt he’ll take
> me up on it but the offer stands.”
> **unquote**

I sent the owner this image "http://i51.tinypic.com/x5ccjt.jpg" and he
got a big kick out of it.

[Edward Dolan]

"SMS" > wrote in message
...
> On 04/11/10 9:25 PM, y_p_w wrote:
>
>> Yeah - it's a wide fire road with signage and enforcement that's been
>> spotty at best as to whether or not it was actually against the rules
>> to ride a bicycle there. It's wide enough for large maintenance
>> vehicles, and hardly singletrack. I've never heard of UCPD arresting
>> or even citing anyone for riding a bike there.
>
> Often a property owner will put signs up to limit their liability in case
> of an accident. If a cyclist got injured on a road that's signed "No
> Bicycles" then the property owner isn't responsible for maintaining the
> road in a condition safe for cyclists. In this case, clearly the property
> owner was fine with bicycles using that road since they did not enforce
> the ban. In any case, the fact that the bicyclists were breaking UC rules
> has no bearing on the facts of the attack.

The last time I looked UC was a governmental entity.

> > The question I'd like to know is why Vandeman was on University of
> > California property with a handsaw - likely carried in order to do
> > unauthorized trail maintenance?
> >
> > There are signs all over campus stating that the right to pass on
> > University property can be revoked. I could imagine staying off of UC
> > property could be a condition of a sentence.
>
> With or without a conviction, UC has the right to ban him from their
> property.

Just as UC has the right to ban cyclists from using that particular trail.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Edward Dolan]

"SMS" > wrote in message
...
[...]
> I checked the minimum sentence requirements for his alleged crime, and
> jail is not required even for a felony conviction. He could get a fine and
> probation if convicted.

Or how about a bottle of champagne from the hiking community to celebrate a
couple of rogue criminal asshole mountain bikers being given a proper
comeuppance. I only regret that their heads were not taken off! I think an
ax would work better for that though.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[y_p_w]

On Nov 5, 9:44*pm, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:
> "SMS" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > On 04/11/10 9:25 PM, y_p_w wrote:
>
> >> Yeah - it's a wide fire road with signage and enforcement that's been
> >> spotty at best as to whether or not it was actually against the rules
> >> to ride a bicycle there. *It's wide enough for large maintenance
> >> vehicles, and hardly singletrack. *I've never heard of UCPD arresting
> >> or even citing anyone for riding a bike there.
>
> > Often a property owner will put signs up to limit their liability in case
> > of an accident. If a cyclist got injured on a road that's signed "No
> > Bicycles" then the property owner isn't responsible for maintaining the
> > road in a condition safe for cyclists. In this case, clearly the property
> > owner was fine with bicycles using that road since they did not enforce
> > the ban. In any case, the fact that the bicyclists were breaking UC rules
> > has no bearing on the facts of the attack.
>
> The last time I looked UC was a governmental entity.

No - the University of California is a quasi-governmental entity.
They maintain rights to pass similar to private landowners. They do
happen to have a special status however, which includes being subject
to public records requests including public salary information.

> > > The question I'd like to know is why Vandeman was on University of
> > > California property with a handsaw - likely carried in order to do
> > > unauthorized trail maintenance?
>
> > > There are signs all over campus stating that the right to pass on
> > > University property can be revoked. *I could imagine staying off of UC
> > > property could be a condition of a sentence.
>
> > With or without a conviction, UC has the right to ban him from their
> > property.
>
> Just as UC has the right to ban cyclists from using that particular trail..

They haven't actually done that from a practical standpoint. If they
were truly interested in banning cyclists, they could easily patrol
the area and ask people to leave. The thing about UC is that they
exist in this strange legal realm. It's like a private business - for
example a shopping mall. Generally the public is allowed to pass.
However - if a "house rule" is broken that doesn't violate any
particular law, the management can ask someone to leave, then have
them arrested for trespassing if they refuse to do so.

Granted, there are some laws that define specific criminal acts on UC
property, but I've never heard of anyone arrested for simply breaking
a rule set by the University if they simply left.

I can't believe I'm arguing with him. However - I just wanted to make
a point of clarification.

[SMS]

On 11/5/2010 11:06 PM, y_p_w wrote:

> They haven't actually done that from a practical standpoint. If they
> were truly interested in banning cyclists, they could easily patrol
> the area and ask people to leave. The thing about UC is that they
> exist in this strange legal realm. It's like a private business - for
> example a shopping mall. Generally the public is allowed to pass.
> However - if a "house rule" is broken that doesn't violate any
> particular law, the management can ask someone to leave, then have
> them arrested for trespassing if they refuse to do so.

That's the bottom line. The entity can tell someone to leave if they
break a rule, and have them arrested if they refuse to leave. But they
can't arrest them for breaking a house rule because the rule is not a law.

[you]

In article >,
SMS > wrote:

> On 11/5/2010 11:06 PM, y_p_w wrote:
>
> > They haven't actually done that from a practical standpoint. If they
> > were truly interested in banning cyclists, they could easily patrol
> > the area and ask people to leave. The thing about UC is that they
> > exist in this strange legal realm. It's like a private business - for
> > example a shopping mall. Generally the public is allowed to pass.
> > However - if a "house rule" is broken that doesn't violate any
> > particular law, the management can ask someone to leave, then have
> > them arrested for trespassing if they refuse to do so.
>
> That's the bottom line. The entity can tell someone to leave if they
> break a rule, and have them arrested if they refuse to leave. But they
> can't arrest them for breaking a house rule because the rule is not a law.

Exactly, A Land Owner can enforce his own standards, by asking any
"violator" to "Leave the premises". If the violator refuses, he/she are
then committing Criminal Trespass, and can be arrested by a Peace
Officer, OR a Citizen, under the Citizens Arrest Statute, if the state
has one. This is true, even in Public Places, that are on Private Land,
like Malls, and Private Parks, or Stores. As a Watchman, for a Remote
Site, I have used this avenue of the Law, to remove unwanted folks, a
time of two.

[SMS]

On 11/6/2010 10:46 AM, you wrote:
> In >,
> > wrote:
>
>> On 11/5/2010 11:06 PM, y_p_w wrote:
>>
>>> They haven't actually done that from a practical standpoint. If they
>>> were truly interested in banning cyclists, they could easily patrol
>>> the area and ask people to leave. The thing about UC is that they
>>> exist in this strange legal realm. It's like a private business - for
>>> example a shopping mall. Generally the public is allowed to pass.
>>> However - if a "house rule" is broken that doesn't violate any
>>> particular law, the management can ask someone to leave, then have
>>> them arrested for trespassing if they refuse to do so.
>>
>> That's the bottom line. The entity can tell someone to leave if they
>> break a rule, and have them arrested if they refuse to leave. But they
>> can't arrest them for breaking a house rule because the rule is not a law.
>
> Exactly, A Land Owner can enforce his own standards, by asking any
> "violator" to "Leave the premises".

I recall a Costco spokesperson explaining that if someone failed to stop
for the exit check then they would not do anything other than cancel
their membership. The receipt checking is a Costco policy and there is
no law that says you have to stop for it.

At Fry's, the exit checkers are well trained and say and do nothing if
you fail to submit to the exit check.

[y_p_w]

On Nov 6, 10:46*am, you > wrote:
> In article >,
>
> *SMS > wrote:
> > On 11/5/2010 11:06 PM, y_p_w wrote:
>
> > > They haven't actually done that from a practical standpoint. *If they
> > > were truly interested in banning cyclists, they could easily patrol
> > > the area and ask people to leave. *The thing about UC is that they
> > > exist in this strange legal realm. *It's like a private business - for
> > > example a shopping mall. *Generally the public is allowed to pass.
> > > However - if a "house rule" is broken that doesn't violate any
> > > particular law, the management can ask someone to leave, then have
> > > them arrested for trespassing if they refuse to do so.
>
> > That's the bottom line. The entity can tell someone to leave if they
> > break a rule, and have them arrested if they refuse to leave. But they
> > can't arrest them for breaking a house rule because the rule is not a law.
>
> Exactly, A Land Owner can enforce his own standards, by asking any
> "violator" to "Leave the premises". If the violator refuses, he/she are
> then committing Criminal Trespass, and can be arrested by a Peace
> Officer, OR a Citizen, under the Citizens Arrest Statute, if the state
> has one. This is true, even in Public Places, that are on Private Land,
> like Malls, and Private Parks, or Stores. As a Watchman, for a Remote
> Site, I have used this avenue of the Law, to remove unwanted folks, a
> time of two.

A lot of people get confused because it's assumed that the University
of California is a governmental entity. It is in some respects, where
they have a Board of Regents primarily appointed by the state
government. They also get special exception to local requirements,
such as no obligation to pay local/state taxes. It's been somewhat of
an issue in Berkeley, where the University receives services paid for
by the City of Berkeley. However - the primary UC funding is now from
non-governmental sources, and they pretty much operate as a private
landowner would. They're probably more generous than a typical
"private" landowner, but they tend to exercise their rights as a
private university might.

[Edward Dolan]

"y_p_w" > wrote in message
...
On Nov 5, 9:44 pm, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:
[...]
> The last time I looked UC was a governmental entity.

>>No - the University of California is a quasi-governmental entity.
They maintain rights to pass similar to private landowners. They do
happen to have a special status however, which includes being subject
to public records requests including public salary information.

The key word is governmental, not quasi.
[...]

> Just as UC has the right to ban cyclists from using that particular trail.

>> They haven't actually done that from a practical standpoint. If they
were truly interested in banning cyclists, they could easily patrol
the area and ask people to leave. The thing about UC is that they
exist in this strange legal realm. It's like a private business - for
example a shopping mall. Generally the public is allowed to pass.
However - if a "house rule" is broken that doesn't violate any
particular law, the management can ask someone to leave, then have
them arrested for trespassing if they refuse to do so.

>> Granted, there are some laws that define specific criminal acts on UC
property, but I've never heard of anyone arrested for simply breaking
a rule set by the University if they simply left.

Obviously you do not know much of anything about how a public university
acts in conjunction with the local police forces. Most large public
universities even have their own police force and they make arrests of their
own all the time.

>> I can't believe I'm arguing with him. However - I just wanted to make
a point of clarification.

You are great at muddying the waters. But I remain unmuddled.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[y_p_w]

On Nov 7, 12:16*am, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:
> "y_p_w" > wrote in message
> Obviously you do not know much of anything about how a public university
> acts in conjunction with the local police forces. Most large public
> universities even have their own police force and they make arrests of their
> own all the time.

UCPD actually took the police report on Vandeman. I'm quite familiar
with them, having been a student there and witnessing their crowd
control duties at various campus events.

They certainly have the authority to make arrests - both on campus and
the area of Berkeley surrounding the campus. They also patrol area
such as the Richmond Field Station and UC Village in Albany.
Occasionally they'll get supplemented by UCPD from UCSF; there was
also a proposal to merge the departments that didn't work out.

I have heard of UCPD giving campus citations to students for breaking
campus rules. The punishment was via the University (such as holding
back registration) but wouldn't apply to members of the general public
on UC property. What they can do is arrest people for things that are
clearly within typical police powers to do so, such as shoplifting,
assault, trespassing, etc. I've also seen them pull over people for
traffic violations on Berkeley city streets.

Any sign they have about bicycles on their fire trail doesn't carry
the force of law. If that rule is broken, their only recourse is to
revoke someone's right to pass, and then arrest for trespassing if
they don't comply. I've never heard of the University really caring
one way or the other about bicycles on that particular fire road.

I would note that if Mr Vandeman did in fact have that saw in hand to
attempt unauthorized trail maintenance, he could be in violation of
California Penal code 384a:

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/1/10/s384a

"Every person who within the State of California willfully or
negligently cuts, destroys, mutilates, or removes any tree or shrub,
or fern or herb or bulb or cactus or flower, or huckleberry or redwood
greens, or portion of any tree or shrub, or fern or herb or bulb or
cactus or flower, or huckleberry or redwood greens, growing upon state
or county highway rights-of-way, or who removes leaf mold thereon,
except that the provisions of this section shall not be construed to
apply to any employee of the state or of any political subdivision
thereof engaged in work upon any state, county, or public road or
highway while performing work under the supervision of the state or of
any political subdivision thereof, and every person who willfully or
negligently cuts, destroys, mutilates, or removes any tree or shrub,
or fern or herb or bulb or cactus or flower, or huckleberry or redwood
greens, or portions of any tree or shrub, or fern or herb or bulb or
cactus or flower, or huckleberry or redwood greens, growing upon
public land or upon land not his or her own, or leaf mold on the
surface of public land, or upon land not his or her own, without a
written permit from the owner of the land signed by the owner or the
owner's authorized agent, and every person who knowingly sells,
offers, or exposes for sale, or transports for sale, any tree or
shrub, or fern or herb or bulb or cactus or flower, or huckleberry or
redwood greens, or portion of any tree or shrub, or fern or herb or
bulb or cactus or flower, or huckleberry or redwood greens, or leaf
mold, so cut or removed from state or county highway rights-of-way, or
removed from public land or from land not owned by the person who cut
or removed the same without the written permit from the owner of the
land, signed by the owner or the owner's authorized agent, is guilty
of a misdemeanor and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by a
fine of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000), by imprisonment
in a county jail for not more than six months, or by both fine and
imprisonment."

[Edward Dolan]

"y_p_w" > wrote in message
...
On Nov 7, 12:16 am, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:
> "y_p_w" > wrote in message
> Obviously you do not know much of anything about how a public university
> acts in conjunction with the local police forces. Most large public
> universities even have their own police force and they make arrests of
> their
> own all the time.

UCPD actually took the police report on Vandeman. I'm quite familiar
with them, having been a student there and witnessing their crowd
control duties at various campus events.

They certainly have the authority to make arrests - both on campus and
the area of Berkeley surrounding the campus. They also patrol area
such as the Richmond Field Station and UC Village in Albany.
Occasionally they'll get supplemented by UCPD from UCSF; there was
also a proposal to merge the departments that didn't work out.

I have heard of UCPD giving campus citations to students for breaking
campus rules. The punishment was via the University (such as holding
back registration) but wouldn't apply to members of the general public
on UC property. What they can do is arrest people for things that are
clearly within typical police powers to do so, such as shoplifting,
assault, trespassing, etc. I've also seen them pull over people for
traffic violations on Berkeley city streets.

Any sign they have about bicycles on their fire trail doesn't carry
the force of law. If that rule is broken, their only recourse is to
revoke someone's right to pass, and then arrest for trespassing if
they don't comply. I've never heard of the University really caring
one way or the other about bicycles on that particular fire road.

I would note that if Mr Vandeman did in fact have that saw in hand to
attempt unauthorized trail maintenance, he could be in violation of
California Penal code 384a:

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/1/10/s384a

"Every person who within the State of California willfully or
negligently cuts, destroys, mutilates, or removes any tree or shrub,
or fern or herb or bulb or cactus or flower, or huckleberry or redwood
greens, or portion of any tree or shrub, or fern or herb or bulb or
cactus or flower, or huckleberry or redwood greens, growing upon state
or county highway rights-of-way, or who removes leaf mold thereon,
except that the provisions of this section shall not be construed to
apply to any employee of the state or of any political subdivision
thereof engaged in work upon any state, county, or public road or
highway while performing work under the supervision of the state or of
any political subdivision thereof, and every person who willfully or
negligently cuts, destroys, mutilates, or removes any tree or shrub,
or fern or herb or bulb or cactus or flower, or huckleberry or redwood
greens, or portions of any tree or shrub, or fern or herb or bulb or
cactus or flower, or huckleberry or redwood greens, growing upon
public land or upon land not his or her own, or leaf mold on the
surface of public land, or upon land not his or her own, without a
written permit from the owner of the land signed by the owner or the
owner's authorized agent, and every person who knowingly sells,
offers, or exposes for sale, or transports for sale, any tree or
shrub, or fern or herb or bulb or cactus or flower, or huckleberry or
redwood greens, or portion of any tree or shrub, or fern or herb or
bulb or cactus or flower, or huckleberry or redwood greens, or leaf
mold, so cut or removed from state or county highway rights-of-way, or
removed from public land or from land not owned by the person who cut
or removed the same without the written permit from the owner of the
land, signed by the owner or the owner's authorized agent, is guilty
of a misdemeanor and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by a
fine of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000), by imprisonment
in a county jail for not more than six months, or by both fine and
imprisonment."

>> My God, the above activities are what mountain bikers do all the time.
>> They even construct their own trails on public lands. Eventually such
>> illegal trails are discovered and are removed at public expense. In the
>> grand scheme of things, hikers do little if any damage to trails whereas
>> mountain bikers do major damage. Try to get your priorities in order.

>> Mr. Vandeman and I are lovers of nature and wilderness. Mountain bikers
>> do not give a damn about either. All they care about is their god damn
>> rotten sport. A proper place for it would be urban industrial waste land
>> that has already been ruined.

>> Regards,

>> Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[y_p_w]

On Nov 7, 4:32*pm, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:
> "y_p_w" > wrote in message
> >> My God, the above activities are what mountain bikers do all the time.
> >> They even construct their own trails on public lands. Eventually such
> >> illegal trails are discovered and are removed at public expense. In the
> >> grand scheme of things, hikers do little if any damage to trails whereas
> >> mountain bikers do major damage. Try to get your priorities in order.
> >> Mr. Vandeman and I are lovers of nature and wilderness. Mountain bikers
> >> do not give a damn about either. All they care about is their god damn
> >> rotten sport. A proper place for it would be urban industrial waste land
> >> that has already been ruined.

Those activities are also done by hikers building "social trails".
However - I haven't heard of any such activity by the people accosted
by Vandeman. There would be no need to do so on this fire road. It's
maintained as a fire break by the University and they've taken a
lazzez faire attitude regarding the public's use of the trail.

Again - those cyclists in this case hadn't done anything illegal.
They might have been in violation of an unenforced UC policy, but they
hasn't done anything that they could be arrested for. Now Vandeman on
the other hand has been witnessed as carrying the tools to perform a
clearly illegal activity (violation of California Penal Code 384a).

[Tom Sherman °_°[_2_]]

On 11/7/2010 6:32 PM, Edward Dolan wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ...
> On Nov 7, 12:16 am, "Edward > wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> Obviously you do not know much of anything about how a public university
>> acts in conjunction with the local police forces. Most large public
>> universities even have their own police force and they make arrests of
>> their
>> own all the time.
>
> UCPD actually took the police report on Vandeman. I'm quite familiar
> with them, having been a student there and witnessing their crowd
> control duties at various campus events.
>
> They certainly have the authority to make arrests - both on campus and
> the area of Berkeley surrounding the campus. They also patrol area
> such as the Richmond Field Station and UC Village in Albany.
> Occasionally they'll get supplemented by UCPD from UCSF; there was
> also a proposal to merge the departments that didn't work out.
>
> I have heard of UCPD giving campus citations to students for breaking
> campus rules. The punishment was via the University (such as holding
> back registration) but wouldn't apply to members of the general public
> on UC property. What they can do is arrest people for things that are
> clearly within typical police powers to do so, such as shoplifting,
> assault, trespassing, etc. I've also seen them pull over people for
> traffic violations on Berkeley city streets.
>
> Any sign they have about bicycles on their fire trail doesn't carry
> the force of law. If that rule is broken, their only recourse is to
> revoke someone's right to pass, and then arrest for trespassing if
> they don't comply. I've never heard of the University really caring
> one way or the other about bicycles on that particular fire road.
>
> I would note that if Mr Vandeman did in fact have that saw in hand to
> attempt unauthorized trail maintenance, he could be in violation of
> California Penal code 384a:
>
> http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/1/10/s384a
>
> "Every person who within the State of California willfully or
> negligently cuts, destroys, mutilates, or removes any tree or shrub,
> or fern or herb or bulb or cactus or flower, or huckleberry or redwood
> greens, or portion of any tree or shrub, or fern or herb or bulb or
> cactus or flower, or huckleberry or redwood greens, growing upon state
> or county highway rights-of-way, or who removes leaf mold thereon,
> except that the provisions of this section shall not be construed to
> apply to any employee of the state or of any political subdivision
> thereof engaged in work upon any state, county, or public road or
> highway while performing work under the supervision of the state or of
> any political subdivision thereof, and every person who willfully or
> negligently cuts, destroys, mutilates, or removes any tree or shrub,
> or fern or herb or bulb or cactus or flower, or huckleberry or redwood
> greens, or portions of any tree or shrub, or fern or herb or bulb or
> cactus or flower, or huckleberry or redwood greens, growing upon
> public land or upon land not his or her own, or leaf mold on the
> surface of public land, or upon land not his or her own, without a
> written permit from the owner of the land signed by the owner or the
> owner's authorized agent, and every person who knowingly sells,
> offers, or exposes for sale, or transports for sale, any tree or
> shrub, or fern or herb or bulb or cactus or flower, or huckleberry or
> redwood greens, or portion of any tree or shrub, or fern or herb or
> bulb or cactus or flower, or huckleberry or redwood greens, or leaf
> mold, so cut or removed from state or county highway rights-of-way, or
> removed from public land or from land not owned by the person who cut
> or removed the same without the written permit from the owner of the
> land, signed by the owner or the owner's authorized agent, is guilty
> of a misdemeanor and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by a
> fine of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000), by imprisonment
> in a county jail for not more than six months, or by both fine and
> imprisonment."
>
>>> My God, the above activities are what mountain bikers do all the time.
>>> They even construct their own trails on public lands. Eventually such
>>> illegal trails are discovered and are removed at public expense. In the
>>> grand scheme of things, hikers do little if any damage to trails whereas
>>> mountain bikers do major damage. Try to get your priorities in order.
>
>>> Mr. Vandeman and I are lovers of nature and wilderness. Mountain bikers
>>> do not give a damn about either. All they care about is their god damn
>>> rotten sport. A proper place for it would be urban industrial waste land
>>> that has already been ruined.
>
>>> Regards,
>
>>> Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
> aka
> Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Hey Ed,

Your quoting hierarchy is all fouled up again.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

[Edward Dolan]

"y_p_w" > wrote in message
...
On Nov 7, 4:32 pm, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:
> "y_p_w" > wrote in message
> >> My God, the above activities are what mountain bikers do all the time.
> >> They even construct their own trails on public lands. Eventually such
> >> illegal trails are discovered and are removed at public expense. In the
> >> grand scheme of things, hikers do little if any damage to trails
> >> whereas
> >> mountain bikers do major damage. Try to get your priorities in order.
>>>
> >> Mr. Vandeman and I are lovers of nature and wilderness. Mountain bikers
> >> do not give a damn about either. All they care about is their god damn
> >> rotten sport. A proper place for it would be urban industrial waste
> >> land
> >> that has already been ruined.

>>>> Those activities are also done by hikers building "social trails".

Never heard of it! Just how ****ed-up is California?

>>>> However - I haven't heard of any such activity by the people accosted
by Vandeman. There would be no need to do so on this fire road. It's
maintained as a fire break by the University and they've taken a
lazzez faire attitude regarding the public's use of the trail.

Then why bother to post a no bicycles allowed for that trail. Laws or rules
that are not enforced just breeds contempt for them.

>>>> Again - those cyclists in this case hadn't done anything illegal.
They might have been in violation of an unenforced UC policy, but they
hasn't done anything that they could be arrested for. Now Vandeman on
the other hand has been witnessed as carrying the tools to perform a
clearly illegal activity (violation of California Penal Code 384a).

It is not CLEARLY illegal at all. Rules or laws that are not enforced are
contemptible and therefore ignorable. Ever heard the expression ... the law
is an ass? It is the criminal idiot-asshole mountain bikers who are ruining
hiking trails and not hikers, who are as pure as the driven snow.

I seriously doubt that Mr. Vandeman did anything illegal. Anyone can get
arrested upon a complaint being filed. A complaint in and of itself doesn't
mean ****. What I know to be a fact is that Mr. Vandeman is a gentleman and
a scholar. Another fact that I know to be true is that ALL mountian bikers
who ride their bikes on hiking trails are the scum of the earth. I say
****'em!

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Edward Dolan]

"Tom Sherman °_°" > wrote in message
...
[...]
> Hey Ed,
>
> Your quoting hierarchy is all fouled up again.

The sequence is right provided you read from top to bottom and that is all
that matters. I cannot be responsible for those who post from Google Groups.
Frankly, I am surprised that all ISPs do not provide a newsreader like
Knology (formerly Prairie Wave) does for me.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[y_p_w]

On Nov 7, 7:24*pm, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:
> "y_p_w" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Nov 7, 4:32 pm, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:
>
> > "y_p_w" > wrote in message
> > >> My God, the above activities are what mountain bikers do all the time.
> > >> They even construct their own trails on public lands. Eventually such
> > >> illegal trails are discovered and are removed at public expense. In the
> > >> grand scheme of things, hikers do little if any damage to trails
> > >> whereas
> > >> mountain bikers do major damage. Try to get your priorities in order..
>
> > >> Mr. Vandeman and I are lovers of nature and wilderness. Mountain bikers
> > >> do not give a damn about either. All they care about is their god damn
> > >> rotten sport. A proper place for it would be urban industrial waste
> > >> land
> > >> that has already been ruined.
> >>>> Those activities are also done by hikers building "social trails".
>
> Never heard of it! Just how ****ed-up is California?

Yeah right. Unauthorized trailblazing happens everywhere. Even in
**ahem** Minnesota. How F'ed up is that?

http://www.eskimo.com/~rachford/mountaineering/trips/20041009_eaglemtn.html

**quote**
I missed this turn at first because the overlook is actually a bit off
the trail. I wasn't the only one, as there was a **social trail**
continuing beyond the overlook and then angling back to the summit
trail.
**unquote**

> >>>> However - I haven't heard of any such activity by the people accosted
>
> by Vandeman. *There would be no need to do so on this fire road. *It's
> maintained as a fire break by the University and they've taken a
> lazzez *faire attitude regarding the public's use of the trail.
>
> Then why bother to post a no bicycles allowed for that trail. Laws or rules
> that are not enforced just breeds contempt for them.

They post "no bicycles" signs as a "cover your ass" precaution. Again
- it's not a singletrack trail per se. It's a fire road. It's wide
enough to drive a truck through there.

http://www.yelp.com/biz/berkeley-fire-trails-berkeley

> >>>> Again - those cyclists in this case hadn't done anything illegal.
>
> They might have been in violation of an unenforced UC policy, but they
> hasn't done anything that they could be arrested for. *Now Vandeman on
> the other hand has been witnessed as carrying the tools to perform a
> clearly illegal activity (violation of California Penal Code 384a).
>
> It is not CLEARLY illegal at all. Rules or laws that are not enforced are
> contemptible and therefore ignorable. Ever heard the expression ... the law
> is an ass? It is the criminal idiot-asshole mountain bikers who are ruining
> hiking trails and not hikers, who are as pure as the driven snow.

It wasn't designed as a hiking trail. It's clearly meant to be a fire
break in an area subject to potentially intense fires. I personally
witnessed the 1991 Berkeley Hills fire, and know how serious it could
get.

> I seriously doubt that Mr. Vandeman did anything illegal. Anyone can get
> arrested upon a complaint being filed. A complaint in and of itself doesn't
> mean ****. What I know to be a fact is that Mr. Vandeman is a gentleman and
> a scholar. Another fact that I know to be true is that ALL mountian bikers
> who ride their bikes on hiking trails are the scum of the earth. I say
> ****'em!

Then what the heck was he doing with a handsaw?

[SMS]

On 11/7/2010 9:23 PM, y_p_w wrote:

> Then what the heck was he doing with a handsaw?

He already admitted "contacting" the cyclists with the saw. Obviously
he's not going to claim that he did what he did because he was enforcing
the "no bicycles" rule. Probably he'll claim that he was standing still
with the saw and the cyclists came toward him.

Very surprising that no plea bargain was reached, with dropping of the
felony charge and probation plus a fine for the misdemeanors.

It'll be an interesting trial. I wonder how long it'll take to find a jury.

[y_p_w]

On Nov 8, 7:00*am, SMS > wrote:
> On 11/7/2010 9:23 PM, y_p_w wrote:
>
> > Then what the heck was he doing with a handsaw?
>
> He already admitted "contacting" the cyclists with the saw. Obviously
> he's not going to claim that he did what he did because he was enforcing
> the "no bicycles" rule. Probably he'll claim that he was standing still
> with the saw and the cyclists came toward him.
>
> Very surprising that no plea bargain was reached, with dropping of the
> felony charge and probation plus a fine for the misdemeanors.
>
> It'll be an interesting trial. I wonder how long it'll take to find a jury.

I don't live in Alameda County, although I have received a couple of
jury summons. If I happened to be in that jury box, I'm sure that I
could bring up my previous encounters with MV's internet activity and
get excused.

I'm wondering why nobody's requested a bench trial. I do get the
feeling that MV might be looking at a jury trial in hopes that the
jury will be sympathetic to his anti mountain biking crusade.

[you]

In article
>,
y_p_w > wrote:

> On Nov 8, 7:00*am, SMS > wrote:
> > On 11/7/2010 9:23 PM, y_p_w wrote:
> >
> > > Then what the heck was he doing with a handsaw?
> >
> > He already admitted "contacting" the cyclists with the saw. Obviously
> > he's not going to claim that he did what he did because he was enforcing
> > the "no bicycles" rule. Probably he'll claim that he was standing still
> > with the saw and the cyclists came toward him.
> >
> > Very surprising that no plea bargain was reached, with dropping of the
> > felony charge and probation plus a fine for the misdemeanors.
> >
> > It'll be an interesting trial. I wonder how long it'll take to find a jury.
>
> I don't live in Alameda County, although I have received a couple of
> jury summons. If I happened to be in that jury box, I'm sure that I
> could bring up my previous encounters with MV's internet activity and
> get excused.
>
> I'm wondering why nobody's requested a bench trial. I do get the
> feeling that MV might be looking at a jury trial in hopes that the
> jury will be sympathetic to his anti mountain biking crusade.

I have been kind of hoping some of the Mountain Bikers in the area of
the trial, would take the time to show up in court and give us a Blow by
Blow of the trial, and the outcome, maybe even in real time, or via
\Skype from a Notebook or Laptop. Now that would be "Way Cool"....

[SMS]

On 11/8/2010 9:07 AM, y_p_w wrote:

> I'm wondering why nobody's requested a bench trial.

No way the defense would want that.

> I do get the
> feeling that MV might be looking at a jury trial in hopes that the
> jury will be sympathetic to his anti mountain biking crusade.

Jurors tend to take their responsibility seriously. I don't think he'll
get any sympathy based on the fact that the cyclists were breaking a UC
rule. Certainly his anti-mountain biking crusade will not be brought up
by the defense, and it's probably not admissible by the prosecution.

[SMS]

On 11/8/2010 10:46 AM, you wrote:

> I have been kind of hoping some of the Mountain Bikers in the area of
> the trial, would take the time to show up in court and give us a Blow by
> Blow of the trial, and the outcome, maybe even in real time, or via
> \Skype from a Notebook or Laptop. Now that would be "Way Cool"....

These types of trials can go for days because of the difficulty in
selecting a jury.

[y_p_w]

On Nov 8, 11:25*am, SMS > wrote:
> On 11/8/2010 9:07 AM, y_p_w wrote:
>
> > I'm wondering why nobody's requested a bench trial.
>
> No way the defense would want that.
>
> > I do get the
> > feeling that MV might be looking at a jury trial in hopes that the
> > jury will be sympathetic to his anti mountain biking crusade.
>
> Jurors tend to take their responsibility seriously. I don't think he'll
> get any sympathy based on the fact that the cyclists were breaking a UC
> rule. Certainly his anti-mountain biking crusade will not be brought up
> by the defense, and it's probably not admissible by the prosecution.

I think all bets are off if either he or his legal counsel make a
claim that he was trying to enforce a campus policy.

Prior history is going to come up. A lot of other stuff is going to
be admissible, such as witnesses who claim that he deliberately
reached for a riders' handlebars and squeezed their brakes to force
them to stop. He's apparently made statements on the spot about what
he thought he was doing via his actions, and there seems to be a
pattern in several incidents reported to UCPD.

http://police.berkeley.edu/crimealerts/2010/documents/10-050610-34.pdf

[SMS]

On 08/11/10 1:40 PM, y_p_w wrote:
> On Nov 8, 11:25 am, > wrote:
>> On 11/8/2010 9:07 AM, y_p_w wrote:
>>
>>> I'm wondering why nobody's requested a bench trial.
>>
>> No way the defense would want that.
>>
>>> I do get the
>>> feeling that MV might be looking at a jury trial in hopes that the
>>> jury will be sympathetic to his anti mountain biking crusade.
>>
>> Jurors tend to take their responsibility seriously. I don't think he'll
>> get any sympathy based on the fact that the cyclists were breaking a UC
>> rule. Certainly his anti-mountain biking crusade will not be brought up
>> by the defense, and it's probably not admissible by the prosecution.
>
> I think all bets are off if either he or his legal counsel make a
> claim that he was trying to enforce a campus policy.

No way that his lawyer would say anything like that.

[Edward Dolan]

"y_p_w" > wrote in message
...
On Nov 7, 7:24 pm, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:
> "y_p_w" > wrote in message
[...]
> >>>> Those activities are also done by hikers building "social trails".
>
> Never heard of it! Just how ****ed-up is California?

>> Yeah right. Unauthorized trailblazing happens everywhere. Even in
**ahem** Minnesota. How F'ed up is that?

>> **quote**
I missed this turn at first because the overlook is actually a bit off
the trail. I wasn't the only one, as there was a **social trail**
continuing beyond the overlook and then angling back to the summit
trail.
**unquote**

Those type of offshoot paths do not amount to a hill of beans. Either get
serious or get lost!
[...]

>> They post "no bicycles" signs as a "cover your ass" precaution. Again
- it's not a singletrack trail per se. It's a fire road. It's wide
enough to drive a truck through there.

Fire roads are fine for cycling as far as I am concerned, but if it was
posted, then it is NOT OK!
[...]

> I seriously doubt that Mr. Vandeman did anything illegal. Anyone can get
> arrested upon a complaint being filed. A complaint in and of itself
> doesn't
> mean ****. What I know to be a fact is that Mr. Vandeman is a gentleman
> and
> a scholar. Another fact that I know to be true is that ALL mountian bikers
> who ride their bikes on hiking trails are the scum of the earth. I say
> ****'em!

>> Then what the heck was he doing with a handsaw?

I suspect just doing a little trail clearing. Hikers, unlike mountain
bikers, like to take some responsibility for the trails they enjoy. The only
way to protect yourself from criminal idiot-asshole mountain bikers is to go
armed with a concealed handgun. I wouldn't think of wandering in the woods
without my trusty firearm under my belt.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Dr. Brian Leverich[_2_]]

On 2010-11-08, Edward Dolan > wrote:
> "y_p_w" > wrote in message
> ...
> On Nov 7, 4:32 pm, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:
>> "y_p_w" > wrote in message
>> >> My God, the above activities are what mountain bikers do all the time.
>> >> They even construct their own trails on public lands. Eventually such
>> >> illegal trails are discovered and are removed at public expense. In the
>> >> grand scheme of things, hikers do little if any damage to trails
>> >> whereas
>> >> mountain bikers do major damage. Try to get your priorities in order.
>>>>
>> >> Mr. Vandeman and I are lovers of nature and wilderness. Mountain bikers
>> >> do not give a damn about either. All they care about is their god damn
>> >> rotten sport. A proper place for it would be urban industrial waste
>> >> land
>> >> that has already been ruined.
>
>>>>> Those activities are also done by hikers building "social trails".
>
> Never heard of it! Just how ****ed-up is California?


Eh?

For many years Sierra Club entities more-or-less
formally maintained many miles of hiking routes
outside the system of dedicated USFS trails.

The PCT segment through the Desert Divide basically
follows a trail hacked by Sam Fink and maintained by
the Hundred Peaks Section. Our highest service award
is named for Sam, in honor of his labors.

We don't formally maintain non-dedicated trails any
more, but we still certainly publish guides to where
they are and it's a pretty safe bet there are still
some folks maintaining those routes. ;-)

Cheers, Wolf.
Sierra Club activist at Section, Chapter, and National

[Tom Sherman °_°[_2_]]

On 11/8/2010 9:45 PM, Dr. Brian Leverich wrote:
> On 2010-11-08, Edward > wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> ...
>> On Nov 7, 4:32 pm, "Edward > wrote:
>>> > wrote in message
>>>>> My God, the above activities are what mountain bikers do all the time.
>>>>> They even construct their own trails on public lands. Eventually such
>>>>> illegal trails are discovered and are removed at public expense. In the
>>>>> grand scheme of things, hikers do little if any damage to trails
>>>>> whereas
>>>>> mountain bikers do major damage. Try to get your priorities in order.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mr. Vandeman and I are lovers of nature and wilderness. Mountain bikers
>>>>> do not give a damn about either. All they care about is their god damn
>>>>> rotten sport. A proper place for it would be urban industrial waste
>>>>> land
>>>>> that has already been ruined.
>>
>>>>>> Those activities are also done by hikers building "social trails".
>>
>> Never heard of it! Just how ****ed-up is California?
>
>
> Eh?
>
> For many years Sierra Club entities more-or-less
> formally maintained many miles of hiking routes
> outside the system of dedicated USFS trails.
>
> The PCT segment through the Desert Divide basically
> follows a trail hacked by Sam Fink and maintained by
> the Hundred Peaks Section. Our highest service award
> is named for Sam, in honor of his labors.
>
> We don't formally maintain non-dedicated trails any
> more, but we still certainly publish guides to where
> they are and it's a pretty safe bet there are still
> some folks maintaining those routes. ;-)
>
> Cheers, Wolf.
> Sierra Club activist at Section, Chapter, and National

Did not Mike "Handsaw" Vandeman used to be on a Sierra Club committee,
until he got kicked off permanently for his actions against other members?

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

[y_p_w]

On Nov 8, 7:45*pm, "Dr. Brian Leverich"
> wrote:
> On 2010-11-08, Edward Dolan > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "y_p_w" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Nov 7, 4:32 pm, "Edward Dolan" > wrote:
> >> "y_p_w" > wrote in message
> >> >> My God, the above activities are what mountain bikers do all the time.
> >> >> They even construct their own trails on public lands. Eventually such
> >> >> illegal trails are discovered and are removed at public expense. In the
> >> >> grand scheme of things, hikers do little if any damage to trails
> >> >> whereas
> >> >> mountain bikers do major damage. Try to get your priorities in order.

[Edward Dolan]

"y_p_w" > wrote in message
...
On Nov 8, 7:45 pm, "Dr. Brian Leverich"
> wrote:
[...]
> For many years Sierra Club entities more-or-less
> formally maintained many miles of hiking routes
> outside the system of dedicated USFS trails.
>
> The PCT segment through the Desert Divide basically
> follows a trail hacked by Sam Fink and maintained by
> the Hundred Peaks Section. Our highest service award
> is named for Sam, in honor of his labors.
>
> We don't formally maintain non-dedicated trails any
> more, but we still certainly publish guides to where
> they are and it's a pretty safe bet there are still
> some folks maintaining those routes. ;-)
>
> Cheers, Wolf.
> Sierra Club activist at Section, Chapter, and National

>> Would have been nice if there was still some maintenance of that spur
trail between the Mt Tallac Trail down to Fallen Leaf Lake. It showed
up on a couple of maps I had. Then I found myself getting my
(uncovered) legs getting scratched up by increasingly narrower paths
covered with manzanita on both sides. I gave up after a half-mile of
that and went back. I then stopped by the Taylor Creek Visitor Center
and inquired about that trail. I was told that it was no longer
maintained and wouldn't show up on any Forest Service map. I was
apparently also welcome to use it, but took any risks of doing so.

>> I would think that the Sierra Club might be a bigger stickler for
rules, and might ask the local FS offices for written permission to
perform the trail maintenance. I wouldn't guess that Mr Vandeman ever
asked any UC personnel for written permission.

Comparing what hikers do to trails and what mountain bikers do to trails is
like comparing apples to oranges. One is mere enhancement, the other is
total destruction. If you can't tell the difference, then what the hell are
you doing on these newsgroups anyway?

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Wolf Leverich]

On 2010-11-09, y_p_w > wrote:

> I would think that the Sierra Club might be a bigger stickler for
> rules, and might ask the local FS offices for written permission to
> perform the trail maintenance. I wouldn't guess that Mr Vandeman ever
> asked any UC personnel for written permission.


The contemporary Sierra Club *is* a bigger stickler, which is
why we don't organizationally do anything other than sanctioned
trail maintenance in support of land managers.

Individuals acting without Club sanction may be maintaining
routes that have existed for many decades.

Cheers, Wolf.

[Tom Sherman °_°[_2_]]

On 11/9/2010 9:01 PM, Wolf Leverich wrote:
> [...]
> The contemporary Sierra Club*is* a bigger stickler, which is
> why we don't organizationally do anything other than sanctioned
> trail maintenance in support of land managers.[...]

Does the Sierra Club have a policy against attacking cyclists with a
*handsaw*?

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

[Edward Dolan]

"Tom Sherman °_°" > wrote in message
...
> On 11/9/2010 9:01 PM, Wolf Leverich wrote:
>> [...]
>> The contemporary Sierra Club*is* a bigger stickler, which is
>> why we don't organizationally do anything other than sanctioned
>> trail maintenance in support of land managers.[...]
>
> Does the Sierra Club have a policy against attacking cyclists with a
> *handsaw*?

Tom Sherman does not know what happened any more than any of the other
idiots who post to this forum.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Wolf Leverich]

On 2010-11-10, Tom Sherman °_° > wrote:
> On 11/9/2010 9:01 PM, Wolf Leverich wrote:
>> [...]
>> The contemporary Sierra Club*is* a bigger stickler, which is
>> why we don't organizationally do anything other than sanctioned
>> trail maintenance in support of land managers.[...]
>
> Does the Sierra Club have a policy against attacking cyclists with a
> *handsaw*?


Probably not, but we prolly don't have policies on buggering
sheep or kicking puppies, either. Of course it's wrong.

You realize there are a *lot* of Sierra Club cyclists, both
road and mountain bike, right? My very battered Specialized
hardtail is about 20 feet from where I sit typing. ;-)

Cheers, Wolf.

[Bruce Jensen]

On Nov 8, 8:45*pm, Tom Sherman °_°
> wrote:
> On 11/8/2010 9:45 PM, Dr. Brian Leverich wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 2010-11-08, Edward > *wrote:
> >> > *wrote in message
> ....
> >> On Nov 7, 4:32 pm, "Edward > *wrote:
> >>> > *wrote in message
> >>>>> My God, the above activities are what mountain bikers do all the time.
> >>>>> They even construct their own trails on public lands. Eventually such
> >>>>> illegal trails are discovered and are removed at public expense. In the
> >>>>> grand scheme of things, hikers do little if any damage to trails
> >>>>> whereas
> >>>>> mountain bikers do major damage. Try to get your priorities in order.

[Bruce Jensen]

On Nov 10, 1:07*pm, "Wolf Leverich" > wrote:
> On 2010-11-10, Tom Sherman _ > wrote:
>
> > On 11/9/2010 9:01 PM, Wolf Leverich wrote:
> >> [...]
> >> The contemporary Sierra Club*is* *a bigger stickler, which is
> >> why we don't organizationally do anything other than sanctioned
> >> trail maintenance in support of land managers.[...]
>
> > Does the Sierra Club have a policy against attacking cyclists with a
> > *handsaw*?
>
> Probably not, but we prolly don't have policies on buggering
> sheep or kicking puppies, either. *Of course it's wrong.
>
> You realize there are a *lot* of Sierra Club cyclists, both
> road and mountain bike, right? *My very battered Specialized
> hardtail is about 20 feet from where I sit typing. *;-)
>
> Cheers, Wolf.

Uh, oh, Wolf - now you've done it - Ed "the 'Tard" Dolan has you in
his sights! :-D

[Tom Sherman °_°[_2_]]

On 11/10/2010 3:07 PM, Wolf Leverich wrote:
> On 2010-11-10, Tom Sherman > wrote:
>> On 11/9/2010 9:01 PM, Wolf Leverich wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> The contemporary Sierra Club*is* a bigger stickler, which is
>>> why we don't organizationally do anything other than sanctioned
>>> trail maintenance in support of land managers.[...]
>>
>> Does the Sierra Club have a policy against attacking cyclists with a
>> *handsaw*?
>
>
> Probably not, but we prolly don't have policies on buggering
> sheep or kicking puppies, either. Of course it's wrong.
>
> You realize there are a *lot* of Sierra Club cyclists, both
> road and mountain bike, right? My very battered Specialized
> hardtail is about 20 feet from where I sit typing. ;-)

Why I brought the subject up:

"28. Bay Chapter BoLT Issue MSC (McGrady-Aumen) The Board of Directors
permanently bars Michael Vandeman from holding any elective or
appointive leadership positions within the Sierra Club. In addition, Mr.
Vandeman is not to represent the Sierra Club, or any of its entities, in
any manner or on any issue, explicitly or implicitly."

<http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/wiki/Michael_Vandeman>

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

[Edward Dolan]

"Bruce Jensen" > wrote in message
...
On Nov 8, 8:45 pm, Tom Sherman °_°
> wrote:
[...]
> Did not Mike "Handsaw" Vandeman used to be on a Sierra Club committee,
> until he got kicked off permanently for his actions against other members?

>> Yes.

**** you too Asshole!

****ing Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Edward Dolan]

"Tom Sherman °_°" > wrote in message
...
> On 11/10/2010 3:07 PM, Wolf Leverich wrote:
[...]
>> You realize there are a *lot* of Sierra Club cyclists, both
>> road and mountain bike, right? My very battered Specialized
>> hardtail is about 20 feet from where I sit typing. ;-)
>
> Why I brought the subject up:
>
> "28. Bay Chapter BoLT Issue MSC (McGrady-Aumen) The Board of Directors
> permanently bars Michael Vandeman from holding any elective or appointive
> leadership positions within the Sierra Club. In addition, Mr. Vandeman is
> not to represent the Sierra Club, or any of its entities, in any manner or
> on any issue, explicitly or implicitly."

The Sierra Club ceased doing any good ages ago. It belongs to another era. I
say ****'em!

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

[Tom Sherman °_°[_2_]]

On 11/10/2010 8:58 PM, Edward Dolan wrote:
> "Tom Sherman > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 11/10/2010 3:07 PM, Wolf Leverich wrote:
> [...]
>>> You realize there are a *lot* of Sierra Club cyclists, both
>>> road and mountain bike, right? My very battered Specialized
>>> hardtail is about 20 feet from where I sit typing. ;-)
>>
>> Why I brought the subject up:
>>
>> "28. Bay Chapter BoLT Issue MSC (McGrady-Aumen) The Board of Directors
>> permanently bars Michael Vandeman from holding any elective or appointive
>> leadership positions within the Sierra Club. In addition, Mr. Vandeman is
>> not to represent the Sierra Club, or any of its entities, in any manner or
>> on any issue, explicitly or implicitly."
>
> The Sierra Club ceased doing any good ages ago. It belongs to another era. I
> say ****'em!
^^^^^^^

Ed, have you received counseling for your odd sexual hangups?

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

[SMS]

On 09/11/10 7:01 PM, Wolf Leverich wrote:
> On 2010-11-09, > wrote:
>
>> I would think that the Sierra Club might be a bigger stickler for
>> rules, and might ask the local FS offices for written permission to
>> perform the trail maintenance. I wouldn't guess that Mr Vandeman ever
>> asked any UC personnel for written permission.
>
>
> The contemporary Sierra Club *is* a bigger stickler, which is
> why we don't organizationally do anything other than sanctioned
> trail maintenance in support of land managers.
>
> Individuals acting without Club sanction may be maintaining
> routes that have existed for many decades.
>
> Cheers, Wolf.

The various Sierra Club entities sometimes are not on the same page. I'm
a long-time Sierra Club member and in a recent referendum in my city I
cited the national Sierra Club web site on the issue of urban sprawl
(building massive amounts of housing away from mass transit):

"New development puts more children in suburban schools, ... does
not pay for the new schools that inevitably must be built."

"Poorly planned development is threatening our environment, our
health, and our quality of life."

Well we strongly agreed with the Sierra Club's position so we quoted it.
The local chapter went crazy because they are in strongly in favor of
such sprawl and development. Our campaign got a nasty-gram from the
local chapter claiming that we were implying Sierra Club endorsement,
when in fact all we did was literally quote the Sierra Club web site.
They demanded that we not use the Sierra Club's name in our campaign
material, but of course they could not stop us. The National Sierra Club
quickly removed the quotes we used from their web site!

[Edward Dolan]

"Tom Sherman °_°" > wrote in message
...
> On 11/10/2010 8:58 PM, Edward Dolan wrote:
[...]
>> The Sierra Club ceased doing any good ages ago. It belongs to another
>> era. I
>> say ****'em!
>
> Ed, have you received counseling for your odd sexual hangups?

High mindedness is wasted on these newsgroups since they are composed almost
solely of asshole-idiots. I want to be fully understood above all else. Any
doubt as to what I think of the Sierra Club?

The trouble with your posts is that they lack feeling. Consequently, they
are dull to the point of exasperation. The only sin on Usenet is to be dull.
THAT I have never been guilty of.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota