Re: idling and wheel sizes

[Mikefule]

Hi, welcome to the sport.

First, the wheel sizes. The simple answer is that a 20 inch wheel is 20
inches in diameter; a 24 inch wheel is 24 inches in diameter, and so on.
That means 24 inches across, from the outer edge of the tyre to the
outer edge of the tyre.

However, it's not quite that simple. If you buy a standard 24 inch
unicycle, with a fairly average tyre on it, then it will be 24 inches
across. If you take that tyre off and put a big fat off road tyre on
it, then the actual diameter will increase, but it will still be
referred to as a 24.

So, think of the wheel size as 'nominal' or approximate. It is a
guide.

As a general guide:

12 inch and 16 inch wheels are mainly for children, or very small
adults, unless you particularly want a small wheel for some special
reason.

20 inch is a good beginner's size. It's easy to learn on. It's light
and manoeuvreable.

24 inch is a good all round size. You can learn on one. It's a bit
faster than a 20, and it will roll over rough ground better.

A 24 with a very fat tyre (3 inch section) is effectively 26 inches in
diameter, and very good for off road use.

A 26 is good for off road, but a bit less manoeuvreable than a 24.

A 28 is good for road use, and covering distance.

Put a fat tyre on a 28 and you get a 29, which is good for going fast
over rough ground.

A Coker is a 36 inch tyre (made by the Coker Tire Company) and a Coker
is very big, very fast, great fun, and is good at covering long
distances and rough ground as long as it's not too hilly.

Idling: This is one of the vital skills for a good safe rider. It's a
way of staying in one place without having to dismount. The rider's
head stays still, and the wheel passes a short distance forwards and
backwards beneath him/her. Imagine a pendulum.

Idling takes a bit of time to learn. There are threads giving lots of
advice. Use the search facility in this forum to find those threads.
If you can't get on with that, ask again, and someone will give you
whatever advice you need.

Idling on a 20 or 24 is pretty easy, once you have the skill. As the
wheel size increases, idling becomes more demanding. Idling a 28
requires care, and idling a Coker is hard work.

Later, you may want to experiment with different length cranks. Short
cranks make the unicycle faster, but less controllable. idling on short
cranks is harder work. very long cranks (170mm or more) also make it a
bit harder. Your first unicycle will almost certainly have 125mm cranks
or 150mm cranks. (125 on a 20, 150 on a 24.) These are the 'right
size' for general use, and learning.


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"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we
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[iunicycle]

Although idling is an invaluable skill, and you might be interested in
learning it right away, there are a bunch of other skills that are also
important, but less exciting, or obvious. The unicycle skill levels were
developed as a rough guide on the order in which skills are easily
learned.

Skill levels are explained here:

<http://unicycling.org/usa/levels/>

I have an integrated description of most of the skills at:

<http://iunicycle.com/unicycle/skills/standard/>

Search or ask questions here for any skill you don't understand.


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[Mikefule]

I know we've had this discussion before about skill levels... but...

The official skill levels no doubt serve a useful purpose in that they
provide a structure for people who want to develop their unicycling in
one particular direction: freestyle. On the whole, the skill levels
give an indication of which skills are easier or harder to learn.

On the other hand, unicycling is such an individual and eccentric sport
that I find it hard to reconcile the individualist mindset of the
typical unicyclist with the apparent need to have some sort of
'official' validation of one's ability.

But that's a philosophical or psychological discussion. The thread
started with queries relating to learning 'basics' like idling.

I like to differentiate between 'skills' and 'tricks'.

To illustrate: freemounting, riding in a straight line, turning a
corner, and stopping under control are 'skills'; doing a kick up mount,
and riding one footed in a circle would be 'tricks'.

As I see it, 'skills' are things which would help any unicyclist,
whether (s)he prefers MUni, cross country, trials, freestyle, touring,
hockey... whatever aspect of unicycling appeals most.

All unicyclists benefit from being able to do the following
confidently:
Freemount
Ride forwards
Turn in each direction
Stop under control and dismount

Once a unicyclist can do these things, it's simply a matter of
improvement. I rode for 15 years with no other skills.

The next stage for a keen unicyclist would be to learn:
to idle (ideally with either foot down)
to reverse for short distances

A unicyclist who can mount, ride, turn, idle, reverse out of a tight
spot, ride on, then stop and dismount is in a position to develop
his/her riding in whatever direction (s)he chooses.

Hopping may be the next 'skill' as many people use this to get over
small obstacles without dismounting. Likewise, most unicyclists would
benefit from being able to ride down small drops (kerbs etc.).

After that, anything else is a 'trick' rather than a 'skill', to my
mind.

I'm not saying this to denigrate the skill levels, or to denigrate
tricks. It's just that a complete beginner (such as mequauni, who
started the thread) might be misled into thinking that it is 'important'
to learn, say, one footed riding, or one footed idling, or 5 sorts of
freemount. It isn't important, it's just fun.. which is important as an
end in itself.

I keep reading rumours of a set of skill levels being developed for
other disciplines. On the one hand, it would be interesting to read the
list; on the other hand, I don't see how it could be quantified or
assessed. I think it would be helpful for beginners to have some idea
of what would be the best order to learn skills. I'm not sure it would
be a good idea to have people dropping off 6 foot walls in the hope of
winning a certificate.


--
Mikefule - Roland Hope School of Unicycling

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we
fall."
Confucius
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[paco]

Thank you Mike for two excellent posts. I agree with both your
assessment of wheel sizes and the difference of skills and tricks.
If you plan on buying a unicycle (Mequauni, not Mike), be prepared to
buy at least two. The first one is good for learning the basics on, and
after you know what you're doing and have decided on what type of riding
(or types of riding) you plan on doing, you can decide what size of
wheel to get for a higher quality uni. The most common are 20" and 24".
It's hard to confuse the two after seeing them next to each other.
And speaking of seeing, the best way to know what the skills and tricks
are is to see an actual unicyclist performing these tricks. When that's
not an option, looking at the videos on unicyclist.com might work.
Anyone have links to videos of some standard skills in the albums?


--
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-somebody's- responsible!"
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[iunicycle]

Mikefule wrote:
> * It isn't important, it's just fun.. which is important as an end in
> itself.
> *


In the end it is important to have fun. If you can have fun with a few
skills, great! I like learning new skills, or tricks, whatever you want
to call them, because I'm greedy.

The skill levels don't just apply to freestyle. My personal opinion is
that it is easiest to learn skills on a smooth level surface with a 20"
unicycle. These are usually termed freestyle unicycles, but maybe the
trials and Muniers will just start calling them trainers.

Skill level skills are a progression of skills. In general you should
learn skills in the order listed in the levels, but of course everyone
will find that they have certain areas they learn faster than average.
You can also learn a skill by just practicing it over and over until you
get it. But the skill levels can tell you a lot about why you might be
having a problem learning a skill. For instance, if you can't idle or go
backward, have you been able to ride forward, stop, go back 1/2 rev and
then continue forward? If you can't do seat out, can you ride with your
stomach on the seat?

If you have no problem learning a skill, the levels are probably useless
for you. If you don't care about learning new skills, they are also
useless. If you have seen someone gliding down a street for 100 yards,
and you think that is cool and want to do it, the skill levels might be
interesting to you, not necessarily to pass, but as a guide on how to
get there.

Once you learn something on a 20", it will be relatively simple to
translate that to another unicycle size or type.


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[john_childs]

Mikefule wrote:
> *
> I like to differentiate between 'skills' and 'tricks'.
>
> To illustrate: freemounting, riding in a straight line, turning a
> corner, and stopping under control are 'skills'; doing a kick up
> mount, and riding one footed in a circle would be 'tricks'.
> *

They're all skills. I don't do tricks.

There is no trickery involved in doing any of the unicycle skills.
There is no trickery involved in doing a kick up mount or riding one
footed in a circle.

Calling it a trick makes it seem like there is some sort of trickery
going on. Magicians do tricks. Unicyclists do skills. A magician
doing a trick that involves slight of hand is doing something tricky
even though the manipulation may require great skill. If you know the
"trick" the magicians slight of hand trick or illusion isn't as
impressive. Somehow I don't think we'll ever have a "masked unicyclist"
going on a Fox TV special revealing the tricks behind the unicycling
skills because there are no tricks.

I would also differ with your opinion that learning the "advanced"
skills doesn't improve your overall riding. I firmly believe that
learning freestyle skills like seat in back, seat on side, one footed,
wheel walking, backwards circle, etc. improve your muni skills even
though you'll never do something like seat on side during a muni ride.
Learning how to balance and control the unicycle while it is held in
different positions improves your balance, improves your overall riding,
and improves your muni riding.


--
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john_childs (at) hotmail (dot) com
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[gerblefranklin]

I agree with John that there isn't such thing as a trick on a unicycle.
I think skills should be seperated into potentially useful skills and
cool skills. For example, a cool skill would be to wheelwalk with one's
hands, it ain't useful but it's cool. A potentially useful skill is
gliding, although it's also cool. I also think wheelwalking and
onefooted wheelwalking are potentially useful because they lead to
gliding, and they teach you to balance only with your hands instead of
your hips.
I also disagree that one should follow the skill levels to
learn new skills. For example, I can wheelwalk onefooted a figure eight
(a level 9 or 10 skill) but I sure as heck can't sideride or hand
wheelwalk. I also was very capable of chestriding long before I could
ride seat out in front. I've learned almost all of my skills by
usefulness. I only got into wheelwalking to learn to glide, and one foot
wheelwalking was just part of the bill. Unless you want to compete in
UNICON, the skill levels need only be a source of ideas and inspiration.
And as always the true goal is to have fun.



__________________________________________________ __
Pride in something hard earned is not a sin-It's an entitlement.


--
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[GILD]

john_childs wrote:
> *I firmly believe that learning freestyle skills like seat in back,
> seat on side, one footed, wheel walking, backwards circle, etc.
> improve your muni skills even though you'll never do something like
> seat on side during a muni ride*


probably not
having mentioned it tho, i'm sure someone will try
pics please?

if u dont like the term 'tricks' as it's currently used, please suggest
a new term
suggesting a trick is only a trick if it involves trickery is taking
language on a bit of a holiday and is getting unnervingly close to a
discussion on faggots i recently had with sendhair

shouldn't we be out practising?

;)


--
GILD - Waffle-tosser

Science is organized knowledge. Wisdom is organized life.
Immanuel Kant

'pleez check this out' (http://www.reuniteluna.com/)

JUST SAY 'KNOW'!

Namaste!
Dave
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[duaner]

Mikefule wrote:
> *I like to differentiate between 'skills' and 'tricks'. ... As I see
> it, 'skills' are things which would help any unicyclist ... Anything
> else is a 'trick' rather than a 'skill' ...*


john_childs wrote:
> *
> They're all skills. I don't do tricks.
> There is no trickery involved in doing any of the unicycle skills.
> ...
> *


I like the distinction between a "skill" and a "trick". Since there is
no trickery involved in "tricks", maybe "stunt" would be a better word
than "trick"? Whatever it's called, I like the distinction. As
Mikefule pointed out, there are more basic skills (e.g. freemount, ride,
turn) and more advanced skills (e.g. idling, hopping). The distinction
is of course somewhat gray, for example, hopping with seat out front is
(in my mind) largely a "stunt", but it would be useful as a "skill" for
clearing larger obstacles.

Mikefule, two comments on your ordering of skills:

I would put learning hopping (or some other manner of getting up / down
/ over small bumps) earlier on the list than reverse, because almost any
ride (past ones practice area) is going to require the ability to handle
small bumps; whereas I find that reverse is rarely needed.

I'd say that whether idling is desirable earlier or later than "hopping"
depends: if, on ones typically rides, bumps are a bigger obstacle than
waiting for traffic, then I'd say "hopping" is a more useful skill than
is idling, otherwise the reverse is true. I sure wish I'd learned
hopping earlier - I can idle (even one-footed) nearly indefinitely, but
I can't yet ride around in town without dismounting everytime I come to
a significant curb or step; arg! (I am, finally, working on the hopping
now).

Curious note: when you master idling, you are (at least) very close to
being able to "reverse for short distances".


--
duaner
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[iunicycle]

Well, you never know when you will get trapped in a long thin hallway,
so thin you could not turn your handy unicycle around. The exit is in
one direction. One foot is broken badly, the opposite crank is missing.
Any vibration from hopping on your good foot would make the ceiling
fall. Crawling would get you to the exit too slowly to help. You must
side ride out of there!

Whatever you call it, skill or trick, I can cross that dangerous
situation off my list once I learn to side ride.


--
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[Mikefule]

The foray into the definition of 'tricks' was mere semantics. In my
local dialect of the English language, it is legitimate to refer to
something as a 'trick' if it is a clever, entertaining, amusing set
piece, regardless of whether it contains an element of deception or
trickery. Dialects of English from elsewhere may legitimately restrict
the use of the word 'trick' to cases where there is 'trickery'.

The important distinction between the two concepts: foundation skills
and stunts; go and show; basic competencies and advanced skills - call
them what you will - is what I was trying to emphasise.

I doubt that anyone here strongly disagrees with the statement,
"Freemounting is an essential skill for any unicyclist wishing to
advance in any discipline of the sport."

I doubt that anyone here strongly agrees with the parallel statement,
"Backwards wheel walking is an essential skill for any unicyclist
wishing to advance in any discipline of the sport."

Once this distinction is drawn, then it is fair to debate which skills
fall into the first category, and which fall into the second. I put
mounting, riding, turning, stopping in the first category, and idling,
reversing just that little bit further along the spectrum. They are not
'essential' but they are 'generally useful'; they are not 'stunts' or
'tricks', but they are perhaps the first small steps in that general
direction.

I don't think I ever suggested that learning advanced (or even
intermediate) freestyle skills offers no benefits in other disciplines.
If I did, then it was clumsy use of language on my part, as that has
never been my opinion. Of course, any skill which requires fine control
of the unicycle will tend to increase the unicyclist's general level of
ability, confidence, and enjoyment. My ability to idle one footed has
greatly increased my confidence and skill in normal idling, for
example.

I have no complaint about the Skill Levels, except my general point that
I don't understand the need for 'official certification' in such an
individualistic sport - and I accept that it's each to his/her own. No
doubt many of you think I'm a bit weird riding mile after mile until it
hurts. I am. ;)

But whilst I have no 'complaint', I did think it was worth making the
point that the Skill Levels are only one approach to developing a skill
set, and that whilst they are progressive, well thought out, and no
doubt fun, the Skill Levels are geared more towards freestyle than
towards, say, MUni, touring, racing, hockey, or trials.


--
Mikefule - Roland Hope School of Unicycling

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we
fall."
Confucius
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[onewheeldave]

john_childs wrote:
> *
>
> I would also differ with your opinion that learning the "advanced"
> skills doesn't improve your overall riding. I firmly believe that
> learning freestyle skills like seat in back, seat on side, one footed,
> wheel walking, backwards circle, etc. improve your muni skills even
> though you'll never do something like seat on side during a muni ride.
> Learning how to balance and control the unicycle while it is held in
> different positions improves your balance, improves your overall
> riding, and improves your muni riding. *


and

Mikefule wrote:
> *
>
> Of course, any skill which requires fine control of the unicycle will
> tend to increase the unicyclist's general level of ability,
> confidence, and enjoyment. My ability to idle one footed has greatly
> increased my confidence and skill in normal idling, for example.
>
>
> *


What do you guys reckon to the value of practicing these compared to the
value of practicing an equal amount of muni?

i.e. while it makes sense that learning to idle one footed or seat in
back, will improve muni and genaral riding ability, will it be more or
less valuable than an equal amount of time spent muni-ing or riding?


--
onewheeldave - Semi Skilled Unicyclist

"He's also been known to indulge in a spot of flame juggling - but it's
the Muni that really fires him up."

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[Mikefule]

Oh boy! More semantics. I had spotted one of these possibilities and
had hoped it would slip through...

Yes, my choice of the labels, "skill" and "trick" could be taken to
imply that a "trick" (stunt, or whatever) doesn't require skill.
Interpreting it this way would be a little unfair, as the statment (for
example) "wheel walking backwards does not require skill," is clearly
arrant nonsense.

So the choice is between adjusting the labels, or relying on people to
interpret them fairly. Given that I was not aiming to set up a new and
permanent system, I didn't put too much thought into the exact choice of
labels.

Much as I enjoy semantics (if "semantics" is the correct word) I
wouldn't want to get too tied up with this. The distinction is between
what might reasonably be termed, "core skills", and "specialist
skills".

Using thse labels, core skills would be (e.g.) freemount, ride, turn,
idle, and dismount. The wider term, "specialist skills" could then
apply to specialist freestyle skills (e.g. backwards wheel walking);
specialist MUni skills (e.g. downhill gliding); and specialist trials
skills (e.g. jump seat out in front onto a 2 foot obstacle).

This would not exclude the possibility that learning specialist skills
in one discipline might help in another. Nevertheless, there will be
few occasions when the MUniist (qua MUniist) needs to backwards wheel
walk, or the freestyler (qua freestyler) needs to glide downhill.

Applying these labels to the current set of Skill Levels might suggest
that the emphasis of the higher Skill Levels is on specialist freestyle
skills, rather than on specialist MUni skills (etc.).


Now the second bit of semantics: the word "important". Philosophically,
we could argue whether anything at all is important. A case could be
made that honesty, or kindness, is important. A case could be made that
nothing is important except if someone decides to treat it as important.
So some things might have objective importance (honesty, kindness),
some things, or everything, might only be subjectively important. I
tend to the view that importance is a purely human concept. Importance
is attributed to things by humans. Let's not go further into this in
this forum.

Be that as it may (and I've wandered off topic a bit!), there are few
people who would argue that unicycling is important except in the very
limited sense that it is important to those people who enjoy doing it,
or who make their living from manufacturing or selling unicycling
equipment or performing on it.

In my earlier argument, I was using "important" (and/or words of broadly
similar meaning) in the sense of "of general importance to the
unicyclist". Better words might be "basic", "fundamental", "core",
etc.

In the wider sense, the only thing about unicycling which is important
to all of us is that we enjoy it. In this sense, the ability to achieve
one's own objectives is what is important. It is important to some that
they can ride one footed in a figure of 8; it is important to others
that they can leap lemming-like from tall buildings; it is important to
others that they can ride 50 miles in a day.

This is all getting a bit autoproctological. Let's move on.


--
Mikefule - Roland Hope School of Unicycling

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we
fall."
Confucius
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[john_childs]

Mikefule wrote:
> *Oh boy! More semantics. I had spotted one of these possibilities
> and had hoped it would slip through...
>
> Yes, my choice of the labels, "skill" and "trick" could be taken to
> imply that a "trick" (stunt, or whatever) doesn't require skill.
> Interpreting it this way would be a little unfair, as the statement
> (for example) "wheel walking backwards does not require skill," is
> clearly arrant nonsense.
> *

I should have put a smiley or two in my post about "trick" vs. "skill".
I didn't mean that post to be critical.

In any event, the battle is already lost in the war against the use of
the word "trick" to refer to unicycling skills. The BMXers use the word
"trick" and the general population has latched on to the use of the word
"trick" also. For example see 'bmxtrix.com' (http://www.bmxtrix.com/)
where they describe all the specialized skills as tricks. Sigh...

I do like the distinction between core skills and advanced skills.
Getting solid in the core skills is important to becoming a solid rider.


--
john_childs - Guinness Mojo

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[iunicycle]

Mikefule wrote:
> *Oh boy! More semantics. I had spotted one of these possibilities
> and had hoped it would slip through...
> *


When you label a bag of marbles 'a', and I label it 'b', that is
semantics. When you open up the bag and find a quality by which you can
separate the marbles into two groups, that is not semantics, that is a
judgement. If you label one group 'a' and the other group 'b', that
leads to confusion, not because of semantics, because of the private
definitions chosen and the application of common words to encompass
specific meaning.


--
iunicycle - Old back, new cricks
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[paco]

When you say 'marbles,' what are you really trying to say? And why did
you choose 'A' and 'B'? Are you sure that these letters would be the
best options, because...
Okay, that's enough.:D


--
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[john_childs]

onewheeldave wrote:
> *
> What do you guys reckon to the value of practicing these compared to
> the value of practicing an equal amount of muni?
>
> i.e. while it makes sense that learning to idle one footed or seat in
> back, will improve muni and genaral riding ability, will it be more or
> less valuable than an equal amount of time spent muni-ing or riding?
> *

If your concern is to improve your muni riding then the time spent
working on muni skills is much more valuable than time spent working on
freestyle skills. The payoff for the time spent working on freestyle
skills is small, but it's still there.

What you get from practicing freestyle is smoothness and better balance.
Since I've been practicing freestyle skills my pedaling has gotten
smoother. I'm not wasting as much pedaling energy making constant
corrections to my balance. I'm also able to entertain myself on level
sections of logging roads and smooth sections of trail by riding one
footed. One of these day's I'll be able to entertain myself by wheel
walking along the trail.

Time spent working on climbing technique, rolling over obstacles,
endurance, jumping, etc. will improve your muni riding more than working
on freestyle. When you get to the point that you want to work on
balance and pedaling smoothness then consider working on some freestyle
skills.


--
john_childs - Guinness Mojo

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