Why bikes are a viable form of transport

[Tony Raven[_3_]]

"The average speed of vehicles travelling on key urban roads in England
at the height of the school day morning peak is 13 mph;"

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/roadstraffic/speedscongestion/roadstatstsc/roadstats09tsc

Tony

[Justin[_3_]]

On 15 nov, 22:08, Tony Raven > wrote:
> "The average speed of vehicles travelling on key urban roads in England
> at the height of the school day morning peak is 13 mph;"
>
> http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/roadstraf...
>
> Tony

So when I rode a 19 minute 10 mile time trial, it was unviable! Should
have used the car!

[NM]

On Nov 15, 10:08*pm, Tony Raven > wrote:
> "The average speed of vehicles travelling on key urban roads in England
> at the height of the school day morning peak is 13 mph;"
>
> http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/roadstraf...
>
> Tony

To be fair you need to account for the total time taken. Man1 gets
into car drives to (say) work, parks, gets to desk, job done. Wheras
Man2, cyclist, dresses in silly lycra clothing, pedals like a loony to
work, hides his bike (or clamps it to some railings), makes it to the
office, to avoid upsetting his co workers takes a shower, changes into
normal garb and is now ready for work. I maintain that even though the
time the motorist is in motion may be longer the speed of the cyclist
trying to outdo him will result in an increase in the cyclists sweaty
pong which will not be tolerated in the workplace without dissent.
thus home to working at desk the cycle is actually slower overall and
a lot mnore labour intensive.

[JMS]

On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 21:08:07 +0000, Tony Raven >
wrote:

>"The average speed of vehicles travelling on key urban roads in England
>at the height of the school day morning peak is 13 mph;"
>
>http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/roadstraffic/speedscongestion/roadstatstsc/roadstats09tsc
>
>Tony

It depends if you want to arrive where you are going to.

--


Latest figures from DfT: KSI per billion passenger kilometres:

Van: 5 people
Bus/Coach: 9 people
Car : 18 people
Pedestrians: 358 people

Oh : and of course cyclists:
Cyclists: 541 people

Of those four modes of transport - which is the most dangerous?

(With thanks to Justin Lewis for asking me to find out the figures)

[JMS]

On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 13:32:43 -0800 (PST), Justin
> wrote:

>On 15 nov, 22:08, Tony Raven > wrote:
>> "The average speed of vehicles travelling on key urban roads in England
>> at the height of the school day morning peak is 13 mph;"
>>
>> http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/roadstraf...
>>
>> Tony
>
>So when I rode a 19 minute 10 mile time trial, it was unviable! Should
>have used the car!



Hello Dick


I trust you were not racing on the public highway.


--


Latest figures from DfT: KSI per billion passenger kilometres:

Van: 5 people
Bus/Coach: 9 people
Car : 18 people
Pedestrians: 358 people

Oh : and of course cyclists:
Cyclists: 541 people

Of those four modes of transport - which is the most dangerous?

(With thanks to Justin Lewis for asking me to find out the figures)

[JNugent[_7_]]

On 15/11/2010 21:08, Tony Raven wrote:
> "The average speed of vehicles travelling on key urban roads in England at
> the height of the school day morning peak is 13 mph;"
>
> http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/roadstraffic/speedscongestion/roadstatstsc/roadstats09tsc
>
>
> Tony

What's the average distance they travel, and is the average number of
passengers one or something greater than one?

[Justin[_3_]]

On 16 nov, 00:02, JMS > wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 13:32:43 -0800 (PST), Justin
>
> > wrote:
> >On 15 nov, 22:08, Tony Raven > wrote:
> >> "The average speed of vehicles travelling on key urban roads in England
> >> at the height of the school day morning peak is 13 mph;"
>
> >>http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/roadstraf....
>
> >> Tony
>
> >So when I rode a 19 minute 10 mile time trial, it was unviable! Should
> >have used the car!
>
> Hello Dick
>
> I trust you were not racing on the public highway.
>
> -- * * *
>
> Latest figures from DfT: KSI per billion passenger kilometres:
>
> Van: 5 people
> Bus/Coach: 9 people
> Car : 18 people
> Pedestrians: 358 people
>
> Oh : and of course cyclists:
> Cyclists: 541 people
>
> Of those four modes of transport - which is the most dangerous?
>
> (With thanks to Justin Lewis for asking me to find out the figures)

Time trials are not a race in that sense. The origin of the sport is
because only mass start races were illegal: riding alone against the
clock was never banned.

Mass start races are now permitted in cooperation with the police. So
yes I have raced on the British public highways with great pleasure.

[ash[_2_]]

On Nov 15, 9:08*pm, Tony Raven > wrote:
> "The average speed of vehicles travelling on key urban roads in England
> at the height of the school day morning peak is 13 mph;"
>
> http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/roadstraf...
>
> Tony

Tony you are making a straw man argument by cherry picking the stats.

1) The 'average' commute in the UK is 8.7 miles. That works out to 87
miles per week, week in week out. if you conform to the average
statistic.
How many people are happy to cycle nearly 100 miles per week to get to
work and back all year round? - certainly not the 3% of the population
who cycle on a regular basis so what does that say of viability in
this mode ?


2) not eveyone has an urban commute, in fact only 38% of journeys in
total are made on urban roads "In 2009, 20 per cent of traffic was on
motorways, 28 per cent on rural ‘A’ roads, 16 per cent on urban ‘A’
roads, 14 per cent on rural minor roads and 22 per cent on urban minor
roads."

The average traffic speed over the whole network rose from 55.3 mph in
2006 to 55.9 mph in 2008, an increase of 0.6 per cent..

If your commute consists entirely of urban at peak times then you may
be slightly advantaged over the distance, but given that you on your
cycle will be slowed by the congestion which cars also experience it
will be marginal, In reality though, over 60% of journey's aren't and
as a result are going to average closer to the 55mph average than the
13% you wouldwant people to believe to support your argument.

Thank you for the link to the stats anyway - they were very
enlighening ;o)

[ash[_2_]]

On Nov 15, 9:08*pm, Tony Raven > wrote:
> "The average speed of vehicles travelling on key urban roads in England
> at the height of the school day morning peak is 13 mph;"
>
> http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/roadstraf...
>
> Tony

Tony you are making a straw man argument by cherry picking the
stats.

1) The 'average' commute in the UK is 8.7 miles. That works out to 87
miles per week, week in week out. if you conform to the average
statistic.
How many people are happy to cycle nearly 100 miles per week to get
to
work and back all year round? - certainly not the 3% of the
population
who cycle on a regular basis so what does that say of viability in
this mode ?


2) not eveyone has an urban commute, in fact only 38% of journeys in
total are made on urban roads "In 2009, 20 per cent of traffic was
on
motorways, 28 per cent on rural ‘A’ roads, 16 per cent on urban ‘A’
roads, 14 per cent on rural minor roads and 22 per cent on urban
minor
roads."


The average traffic speed over the whole network rose from 55.3 mph
in
2006 to 55.9 mph in 2008, an increase of 0.6 per cent..


If your commute consists entirely of urban at peak times then you
may
be slightly advantaged over the distance, but given that you on your
cycle will be slowed by the congestion which cars also experience it
will be marginal, In reality though, over 60% of journey's aren't and
as a result are going to average closer to the 55mph average than the
13mph you would want people to believe to support your argument.


Thank you for the link to the stats anyway - they were very
enlighening ;o)

[bugbear]

ash wrote:
> On Nov 15, 9:08 pm, Tony > wrote:
>> "The average speed of vehicles travelling on key urban roads in England
>> at the height of the school day morning peak is 13 mph;"
>>
>> http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/roadstraf...
>>
>> Tony
>
> Tony you are making a straw man argument by cherry picking the stats.

viable != universal

BugBear

[JMS]

On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 21:27:45 -0800 (PST), Justin
> wrote:


<snip>


>> Hello Dick
>>
>> I trust you were not racing on the public highway.

>Time trials are not a race in that sense.

In what sense - in the meaning of the word "race" perhaps?

I know that Wikipedia is not definitive - but perhaps you could change
their definition:

"An individual time trial (ITT) is a road bicycle race in which
cyclists race alone against the clock"


So - seems to be a race to me - just as I thought.

--


Latest figures from DfT: KSI per billion passenger kilometres:

Van: 5 people
Bus/Coach: 9 people
Car : 18 people
Pedestrians: 358 people

Oh : and of course cyclists:
Cyclists: 541 people

Of those four modes of transport - which is the most dangerous?

(With thanks to Justin Lewis for asking me to find out the figures)

[PhilO]

On Nov 16, 12:57*pm, JMS > wrote:
>
> I know that Wikipedia is not definitive - but perhaps you could change
> their definition:
>
Judith,

What happened to your OED you've been quoting (- the special one with
your extra words and missing definitions)?
Did the definition not suit you this time? (selctive data again?)
Anyway, you've already been told which racing is not allowed (does not
forbid TTs), so Wilipedia is not going to help

PhilO

[JMS]

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 05:23:54 -0800 (PST), PhilO >
wrote:

>On Nov 16, 12:57*pm, JMS > wrote:
>>
>> I know that Wikipedia is not definitive - but perhaps you could change
>> their definition:
>>
>Judith,
>
>What happened to your OED you've been quoting (- the special one with
>your extra words and missing definitions)?
>Did the definition not suit you this time? (selctive data again?)
>Anyway, you've already been told which racing is not allowed (does not
>forbid TTs), so Wilipedia is not going to help
>
>PhilO



You said :

"Time trials are not a race in that sense"

I is quite clear that time trials are indeed a race within any common
understanding of the meaning of the word.

What do you mean : "which racing is not allowed" - not allowed by who?

I am sorry I have to keep pointing out that you are stupid.

I know that you are a knob - but you ought to give Wikipedia a go.

[Tony Raven[_3_]]

bugbear > wrote:
> ash wrote:
>> On Nov 15, 9:08 pm, Tony > wrote:
>>> "The average speed of vehicles travelling on key urban roads in
> > > England
>>> at the height of the school day morning peak is 13 mph;"
>>>
>>> http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/roadstraf...
>>>
>>> Tony
>>
>> Tony you are making a straw man argument by cherry picking the
> > stats.
>
> viable != universal
>
> BugBear

What bugbear said.

--
Tony

Curious that ash turns up as a new poster with exactly the same double
posting problem that Derek has.

[Justin[_3_]]

On 16 nov, 14:56, JMS > wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 05:23:54 -0800 (PST), PhilO >
> wrote:
>
> >On Nov 16, 12:57 pm, JMS > wrote:
>
> >> I know that Wikipedia is not definitive - but perhaps you could change
> >> their definition:
>
> >Judith,
>
> >What happened to your OED you've been quoting (- the special one with
> >your extra words and missing definitions)?
> >Did the definition not suit you this time? (selctive data again?)
> >Anyway, you've already been told which racing is not allowed (does not
> >forbid TTs), so Wilipedia is not going to help
>
> >PhilO
>
> You said :
>
> "Time trials are not a race in that sense"
>
> I is quite clear that time trials are indeed a race within any common
> understanding of the meaning of the word.
>
> What do you mean : "which racing is not allowed" - not allowed by who?
>
> I am sorry I have to keep pointing out that you are stupid.
>
> I know that you are a knob - but you ought to give Wikipedia a go.

What used to be banned was mass start racing. A time trial is not a
mass start.

[JMS]

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 06:20:30 -0800 (PST), Justin
> wrote:

<snip>


>> You said :
>>
>> "Time trials are not a race in that sense"
>>
>> I is quite clear that time trials are indeed a race within any common
>> understanding of the meaning of the word.
>>
>> What do you mean : "which racing is not allowed" - not allowed by who?
>>
>> I am sorry I have to keep pointing out that you are stupid.
>>
>> I know that you are a knob - but you ought to give Wikipedia a go.
>
>What used to be banned was mass start racing. A time trial is not a
>mass start.


Sorry - is reading not your forte?

Did I suggest it was?

I am just saying that what you call Time Trials are in fact races.

Do you not agree?

--


Latest figures from DfT: KSI per billion passenger kilometres:

Van: 5 people
Bus/Coach: 9 people
Car : 18 people
Pedestrians: 358 people

Oh : and of course cyclists:
Cyclists: 541 people

Of those four modes of transport - which is the most dangerous?

(With thanks to Justin Lewis for asking me to find out the figures)

[Justin[_3_]]

On 16 nov, 16:47, JMS > wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 06:20:30 -0800 (PST), Justin
>
> > wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >> You said :
>
> >> "Time trials are not a race in that sense"
>
> >> I is quite clear that time trials are indeed a race within any common
> >> understanding of the meaning of the word.
>
> >> What do you mean : "which racing is not allowed" - not allowed by who?
>
> >> I am sorry I have to keep pointing out that you are stupid.
>
> >> I know that you are a knob - but you ought to give Wikipedia a go.
>
> >What used to be banned was mass start racing. A time trial is not a
> >mass start.
>
> Sorry - is reading not your forte?
>
> Did I suggest it was?
>
> I am just saying that what you call Time Trials are in fact races.
>
> Do you not agree?
>
> -- * * *
>
> Latest figures from DfT: KSI per billion passenger kilometres:
>
> Van: 5 people
> Bus/Coach: 9 people
> Car : 18 people
> Pedestrians: 358 people
>
> Oh : and of course cyclists:
> Cyclists: 541 people
>
> Of those four modes of transport - which is the most dangerous?
>
> (With thanks to Justin Lewis for asking me to find out the figures)

You wrote "I trust you were not racing on the public highway".

I was but in a sanctioned race. I have also road raced in England.
What is the probelem? Your comment implies that I was doing something
wrong.

[FrengaX]

On Nov 16, 11:55*am, ash > wrote:
> On Nov 15, 9:08*pm, Tony Raven > wrote:
>
> > "The average speed of vehicles travelling on key urban roads in England
> > at the height of the school day morning peak is 13 mph;"
>
> >http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/roadstraf...
>
> > Tony
>
> Tony *you are making a straw man argument by cherry picking the
> stats.
>
> 1) The 'average' commute in the UK is 8.7 miles. That works out to 87
> miles per week, week in week out. if you conform to the average
> statistic.
> How many people are happy to cycle nearly 100 miles per week to get
> to
> work and back all year round? - certainly not the 3% of the
> population
> who cycle on a regular basis so what does that say of viability in
> this mode ?
>
> 2) not eveyone has an urban commute, in fact only 38% of journeys in
> total are made on urban roads *"In 2009, 20 per cent of traffic was
> on
> motorways, 28 per cent on rural ‘A’ roads, 16 per cent on urban ‘A’
> roads, 14 per cent on rural minor roads and 22 per cent on urban
> minor
> roads."
>
> The average traffic speed over the whole network rose from 55.3 mph
> in
> 2006 to 55.9 mph in 2008, an increase of 0.6 per cent..
>
> *If your commute consists entirely of urban at peak times then you
> may
> be slightly advantaged over the distance, but given that you on your
> cycle will be slowed by the congestion which cars also experience it
> will be marginal, In reality though, over 60% of journey's aren't and
> as a result are going to average closer to the 55mph average than the
> 13mph you would want people to believe to support your argument.
>
> Thank you for the link to the stats anyway - they were very
> enlighening ;o)

Or put another way, the decision on whether to commute by bike or car
is based on many factors. Average speed of various modes of traffic
over certain parts of the route is probably not the major factor in
that decision process.

[Jon[_5_]]

On Nov 15, 11:00*pm, JMS > wrote:
>
> Latest figures from DfT: KSI per billion passenger kilometres:
>
> Van: 5 people
> Bus/Coach: 9 people
> Car : 18 people
> Pedestrians: 358 people
> Cyclists: 541 people
>
> Of those four modes of transport - which is the most dangerous?
>
It might be possible to answer your question if you provided figures
by mode causing the casualty, not those falling victim.
I do not suppose for a moment that I impose 71.6 (358/5) times as much
risk upon those around me by walking than I do by driving a van along
the same street.

[JMS]

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 08:24:19 -0800 (PST), Justin
> wrote:

<snip>



>You wrote "I trust you were not racing on the public highway".
>
>I was but in a sanctioned race. I have also road raced in England.
>What is the probelem? Your comment implies that I was doing something
>wrong.

Hello "Dicky" - may I call you that?

Oh it was "sanctioned" was it? - that must make it all OK.


Who "sanctioned" it? - the CTC or some similar august body perhaps?

Is it not time you invested in a spell checker?

I would have thought you being an English teacher, you really
shouldn't be making the errors which you do.


(I think that you may actually be better value than Mason - keep up
the good work.)

--


Latest figures from DfT: KSI per billion passenger kilometres:

Van: 5 people
Bus/Coach: 9 people
Car : 18 people
Pedestrians: 358 people

Oh : and of course cyclists:
Cyclists: 541 people

Of those four modes of transport - which is the most dangerous?

(With thanks to Justin Lewis for asking me to find out the figures)

[Justin[_3_]]

On 16 nov, 13:57, JMS > wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 21:27:45 -0800 (PST), Justin
>
> > wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >> Hello Dick
>
> >> I trust you were not racing on the public highway.
> >Time trials are not a race in that sense.
>
> In what sense - in the meaning of the word "race" perhaps?
>
> I know that Wikipedia is not definitive - but perhaps you could change
> their definition:
>
> "An individual time trial (ITT) is a road bicycle race in which
> cyclists race alone against the clock"
>
> So - seems to be a race to me - just as I thought.
It is not a race involving a roadbike (in the majority of cases) but a
time trial bike which is a completely different sort of bike. You are
timed over a set distance. It is a race but not a road race. these
events (and road races) are organised with police cooperation and
permission on the public highway.
> Latest figures from DfT: KSI per billion passenger kilometres:
>
> Van: 5 people
> Bus/Coach: 9 people
> Car : 18 people
> Pedestrians: 358 people
>
> Oh : and of course cyclists:
> Cyclists: 541 people
>
> Of those four modes of transport - which is the most dangerous?
>
> (With thanks to Justin Lewis for asking me to find out the figures)

[JMS]

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 08:40:54 -0800 (PST), Jon
> wrote:

>On Nov 15, 11:00*pm, JMS > wrote:
>>
>> Latest figures from DfT: KSI per billion passenger kilometres:
>>
>> Van: 5 people
>> Bus/Coach: 9 people
>> Car : 18 people
>> Pedestrians: 358 people
>> Cyclists: 541 people
>>
>> Of those four modes of transport - which is the most dangerous?
>>
>It might be possible to answer your question if you provided figures
>by mode causing the casualty, not those falling victim.
>I do not suppose for a moment that I impose 71.6 (358/5) times as much
>risk upon those around me by walking than I do by driving a van along
>the same street.


Yes - of course - I meant "dangerous to oneself" - a good point.

Mile for mile - cycling is clearly the most dangerous form of
transport to the individual traveler compared to the other stated
modes.

[JMS]

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 08:31:02 -0800 (PST), FrengaX
> wrote:

<snip>


>Or put another way, the decision on whether to commute by bike or car
>is based on many factors. Average speed of various modes of traffic
>over certain parts of the route is probably not the major factor in
>that decision process.



Mile for mile - chance of you being killed or seriously injured -
about 30 times on a bike cf being in a car.

--

The BMA view of helmets:


The BMA (British Medical Association) urges legislation to make the wearing of cycle helmets compulsory for both adults and children.
The evidence from those countries where compulsory cycle helmet use has already been introduced is that such legislation has a beneficial effect on cycle-related deaths and head injuries.
This strongly supports the case for introducing legislation in the UK. Such legislation should result in a reduction in the morbidity and mortality associated with cycling accidents.

[Justin[_3_]]

On 16 nov, 19:31, JMS > wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 08:24:19 -0800 (PST), Justin
>
> > wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >You wrote "I trust you were not racing on the public highway".
>
> >I was but in a sanctioned race. I have also road raced in England.
> >What is the probelem? Your comment implies that I was doing something
> >wrong.
>
> Hello "Dicky" - may I call you that?
>
> Oh it was "sanctioned" was it? - that must make it all OK.
Yes.
> Who "sanctioned" *it? - the CTC or some similar august body perhaps?
CTC is a touring organisation and is not involved in cometetive sport.
Police, local councils and the BCF or RTTC.
> Is it not time you invested in a spell checker?
No
> I would have thought you being an English teacher, you really
> shouldn't be making the errors which you do.
Why not?
> (I think that you may actually be better value than Mason - keep up
> the good work.)
>
> -- * * *
>
> Latest figures from DfT: KSI per billion passenger kilometres:
>
> Van: 5 people
> Bus/Coach: 9 people
> Car : 18 people
> Pedestrians: 358 people
>
> Oh : and of course cyclists:
> Cyclists: 541 people
>
> Of those four modes of transport - which is the most dangerous?
>
> (With thanks to Justin Lewis for asking me to find out the figures)

you still have not explained your comment about racing on the public
highway.

[Jon[_5_]]

On Nov 16, 6:47*pm, JMS > wrote:
>
> Mile for mile - chance of you being killed or seriously injured -
> about 30 times *on a bike cf being in a car.
>
And what, mile for mile, is the relative likelihood that a motorist or
cyclist will kill or serously injure someone else?

[ash[_2_]]

On Nov 17, 12:32*am, Jon > wrote:
> On Nov 16, 6:47*pm, JMS > wrote:
>
> > Mile for mile - chance of you being killed or seriously injured -
> > about 30 times *on a bike cf being in a car.
>
> And what, mile for mile, is the relative likelihood that a motorist or
> cyclist will kill or serously injure someone else?

That question is not pertinent to this subject We work with the stats
as they are presented unless you know the answer already.

[JMS]

On Tue, 16 Nov 2010 16:32:39 -0800 (PST), Jon
> wrote:

>On Nov 16, 6:47*pm, JMS > wrote:
>>
>> Mile for mile - chance of you being killed or seriously injured -
>> about 30 times *on a bike cf being in a car.
>>
>And what, mile for mile, is the relative likelihood that a motorist or
>cyclist will kill or serously injure someone else?



I have no idea - and it is totally irrelevant to the point I was
making : cycling is a dangerous form of travel.

--


Latest figures from DfT: KSI per billion passenger kilometres:

Van: 5 people
Bus/Coach: 9 people
Car : 18 people
Pedestrians: 358 people

Oh : and of course cyclists:
Cyclists: 541 people

Of those four modes of transport - which is the most dangerous?

(With thanks to Justin Lewis for asking me to find out the figures)

[PhilO]

On Nov 16, 1:56*pm, JMS > wrote:
>
> You said :
>
> "Time trials are not a race in that sense"

No I didn't. You really are becoming quite incompetent. That was not
me.
>
> I is quite clear that time trials are indeed a race within any common
> understanding of the meaning of the word.

You is Ali G and ICMFP.

>
> What do you mean : "which racing is not allowed" - not allowed by who?

Legally.

>
> I am sorry I have to keep pointing out that you are stupid.

Do you? Hadn't noticed (and certainly wouldn't care)

>
> I know that you are a knob ...

Ah, Judith, sweet as ever. Always resorts to insults when struggling.

>... - but you ought to give Wikipedia a go.

No thanks, I'm waiting for a special copy of the OED to arrive. One
the same as yours with extra words that you've invented.

PhilO

[JMS]

On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 16:32:00 -0800 (PST), PhilO >
wrote:

>On Nov 16, 1:56*pm, JMS > wrote:
>>
>> You said :
>>
>> "Time trials are not a race in that sense"
>
>No I didn't. You really are becoming quite incompetent. That was not
>me.


Apologies - the comment was so stupid - I thought it was from you. It
was of course from the other ****wit - Dick Wadd

A simple question for you then

Is a time trial a race?

--


Latest figures from DfT: KSI per billion passenger kilometres:

Van: 5 people
Bus/Coach: 9 people
Car : 18 people
Pedestrians: 358 people

Oh : and of course cyclists:
Cyclists: 541 people

Of those four modes of transport - which is the most dangerous?

(With thanks to Justin Lewis for asking me to find out the figures)

[JNugent[_7_]]

On 18/11/2010 20:32, Phil W Lee wrote:
> > considered Wed, 17 Nov 2010 01:30:51 -0800
> (PST) the perfect time to write:
>
>> On Nov 17, 12:32 am, > wrote:
>>> On Nov 16, 6:47 pm, > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mile for mile - chance of you being killed or seriously injured -
>>>> about 30 times on a bike cf being in a car.
>>>
>>> And what, mile for mile, is the relative likelihood that a motorist or
>>> cyclist will kill or serously injure someone else?
>>
>> That question is not pertinent to this subject We work with the stats
>> as they are presented unless you know the answer already.
>
> Possibly more significant is the comparison by hour, since people
> limit their commute far more in terms of how long it takes than how
> far.
> So a 40 minute commute should be compared with another 40 minute
> commute, even if one is a 35 miles in a car and the other 10 miles on
> a bicycle.

How many people commute 35 miles (each way) by bicycle?

At a guess?

[NM]

On Nov 18, 8:32*pm, Phil W Lee > wrote:
> ash > considered Wed, 17 Nov 2010 01:30:51 -0800
> (PST) the perfect time to write:
>
> >On Nov 17, 12:32*am, Jon > wrote:
> >> On Nov 16, 6:47*pm, JMS > wrote:
>
> >> > Mile for mile - chance of you being killed or seriously injured -
> >> > about 30 times *on a bike cf being in a car.
>
> >> And what, mile for mile, is the relative likelihood that a motorist or
> >> cyclist will kill or serously injure someone else?
>
> >That question is not pertinent to this subject We work with the stats
> >as they are presented unless you know the answer already.
>
> Possibly more significant is the comparison by hour, since people
> limit their commute far more in terms of how long it takes than how
> far.
> So a 40 minute commute should be compared with another 40 minute
> commute, even if one is a 35 miles in a car and the other 10 miles on
> a bicycle.

I remember asking someone who worked for our agent in Baghdad, I met
him as he alighted a bus, how far away he lived, never dawned to me he
had no concept of western distance measurement, his answer, "Two
cigarettes".

[PhilO]

On Nov 18, 12:19*pm, JMS > wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Nov 2010 16:32:00 -0800 (PST), PhilO >
> wrote:
>
> >On Nov 16, 1:56*pm, JMS > wrote:
>
> >> You said :
>
> >> "Time trials are not a race in that sense"
>
> >No I didn't. You really are becoming quite incompetent. That was not
> >me.
>
> Apologies - the comment was so stupid - I thought it was from you. *It
> was of course from the other ****wit - Dick Wadd
>
> A simple question for you then
>
> Is a time trial a race?
>
Never denied it - remember, it wasn't me! I just said TTs were not
illegal.
That must be the ****tiest apology ever. You really are unpleasant,
but that just makes it easier to despise you.

PhilO