Bike sizing

[Bob M]

I just bought a LeMond bike to get behind the pedals and a longer top tube
compared to my current bike (a Trek), for which I've had to buy set-back
seat posts and very long stems in order to have proper positioning.
Anyway, I've only ridden the LeMond once, so I'm still adjusting the seat
position. However, for my current seat position, when I'm on the brake
hoods, I can see about half the front axle relative to the handlebars, and
when I'm on the drops, I can see all of the front axle and about 1/2 inch -
1 inch more from the handlebars to the axle. Is it true that the
handlebars should block the axle when you're in your normal riding position
(the brake hoods for me)?

Thanks.

--
Bob M in CT remove 'x.' to reply

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article >,
Bob M > wrote:

> I just bought a LeMond bike to get behind the pedals and a longer top tube
> compared to my current bike (a Trek), for which I've had to buy set-back
> seat posts and very long stems in order to have proper positioning.
> Anyway, I've only ridden the LeMond once, so I'm still adjusting the seat
> position. However, for my current seat position, when I'm on the brake
> hoods, I can see about half the front axle relative to the handlebars, and
> when I'm on the drops, I can see all of the front axle and about 1/2 inch -
> 1 inch more from the handlebars to the axle. Is it true that the
> handlebars should block the axle when you're in your normal riding position
> (the brake hoods for me)?

No.

--
Ryan Cousineau, http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

[Bob M]

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 07:54:31 -0700, Ryan Cousineau > wrote:

> In article >,
> Bob M > wrote:
>
>> I just bought a LeMond bike to get behind the pedals and a longer top
>> tube compared to my current bike (a Trek), for which I've had to buy
>> set-back seat posts and very long stems in order to have proper
>> positioning. Anyway, I've only ridden the LeMond once, so I'm still
>> adjusting the seat position. However, for my current seat position,
>> when I'm on the brake hoods, I can see about half the front axle
>> relative to the handlebars, and when I'm on the drops, I can see all of
>> the front axle and about 1/2 inch - 1 inch more from the handlebars to
>> the axle. Is it true that the handlebars should block the axle when
>> you're in your normal riding position (the brake hoods for me)?
>
> No.
>

Then how do you size it? Assuming that the knee-pedal axle distance is
correct, I have too much weight on my hands, as they hurt. Do I just keep
getting longer stems until the pain goes away?

--
Bob M in CT remove 'x.' to reply

[Dan Daniel]

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 16:02:40 GMT, Bob M > wrote:

>On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 07:54:31 -0700, Ryan Cousineau > wrote:
>
>> In article >,
>> Bob M > wrote:
>>
>>> I just bought a LeMond bike to get behind the pedals and a longer top
>>> tube compared to my current bike (a Trek), for which I've had to buy
>>> set-back seat posts and very long stems in order to have proper
>>> positioning. Anyway, I've only ridden the LeMond once, so I'm still
>>> adjusting the seat position. However, for my current seat position,
>>> when I'm on the brake hoods, I can see about half the front axle
>>> relative to the handlebars, and when I'm on the drops, I can see all of
>>> the front axle and about 1/2 inch - 1 inch more from the handlebars to
>>> the axle. Is it true that the handlebars should block the axle when
>>> you're in your normal riding position (the brake hoods for me)?
>>
>> No.
>>
>
>Then how do you size it? Assuming that the knee-pedal axle distance is
>correct, I have too much weight on my hands, as they hurt. Do I just keep
>getting longer stems until the pain goes away?

Why do you think a *longer* stem will help with too much weight on the
hands? That seems reversed to me.

Handlebar height can be a big factor in weight distribution, also.

Since it your first ride, maybe you just need more time with the new
setup and some adjustments without getting new parts. And talk to
where you bought the bike- they should have advice on fit. And they
should be willing to lend you various stems to find the right length
and height.

I remember the 'block the axle' fitting advice from the '70s. I didn't
know that it still held. Rake, headtube angle, seat setback, top tube
length, handlebar design- many factors in where your eyes end up in
relation to the front axle and handlebars.... I'd pay attention to how
you feel rather than what you see.

[Bob M]

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 10:30:21 -0700, Dan Daniel > wrote:

> On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 16:02:40 GMT, Bob M > wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 07:54:31 -0700, Ryan Cousineau >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In article >,
>>> Bob M > wrote:
>>>
>>>> I just bought a LeMond bike to get behind the pedals and a longer top
>>>> tube compared to my current bike (a Trek), for which I've had to buy
>>>> set-back seat posts and very long stems in order to have proper
>>>> positioning. Anyway, I've only ridden the LeMond once, so I'm still
>>>> adjusting the seat position. However, for my current seat position,
>>>> when I'm on the brake hoods, I can see about half the front axle
>>>> relative to the handlebars, and when I'm on the drops, I can see all
>>>> of the front axle and about 1/2 inch - 1 inch more from the handlebars
>>>> to the axle. Is it true that the handlebars should block the axle
>>>> when you're in your normal riding position (the brake hoods for me)?
>>>
>>> No.
>>>
>>
>> Then how do you size it? Assuming that the knee-pedal axle distance is
>> correct, I have too much weight on my hands, as they hurt. Do I just
>> keep getting longer stems until the pain goes away?
>
> Why do you think a *longer* stem will help with too much weight on the
> hands? That seems reversed to me.

My reason for this is that I had weight on my hands, then I adjusted my
seat backward a bit at about 13 miles into my ride. (I adjusted the seat
backwards because I felt I was too far forward on the pedals.) The weight
on my hands decreased. Up until that point, my hands were going numb.
After that point, my hands felt better. I still feel a bit compressed.


> Handlebar height can be a big factor in weight distribution, also.

Unfortunately, with the idiotic threadless systems now in use, it's hard to
raise the handlebar and dangerous to lower it. (Dangerous from the
standpoint that you can't raise it.) I do feel that the hoods and
handlebar need to be rotated downward. Or perhaps you're talking about
getting a handlebar with less rise (or more rise)? That's a good idea.

> Since it your first ride, maybe you just need more time with the new
> setup and some adjustments without getting new parts. And talk to
> where you bought the bike-they should have advice on fit. And they
> should be willing to lend you various stems to find the right length
> and height.
>
> I remember the 'block the axle' fitting advice from the '70s. I didn't
> know that it still held. Rake, headtube angle, seat setback, top tube
> length, handlebar design-many factors in where your eyes end up in
> relation to the front axle and handlebars.... I'd pay attention to how
> you feel rather than what you see.

Thanks. Tomorrow, I'll ride it for 20 miles; I'll see what happens. The
rear half of the bike feels great, much better than my old bike. On my old
bike, I could never get my knees behind the pedal axles.

--
Bob M in CT remove 'x.' to reply

[Jkpoulos7]

>I have too much weight on my hands, as they hurt. Do I just keep
>getting longer stems until the pain goes away?

Saddle tilt affects hand pain, Raising handlebar can ease pain, building ab
muscle can assist in supporting upper body as can losing some weight . Even
gloves can alleviate hand pain. It took me all five before I could ride pain
free for 35-40 miles or more. You will find the Lemond to be superior once you
get the fit dialed in.

[Dan Daniel]

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 17:38:10 GMT, Bob M > wrote:

>On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 10:30:21 -0700, Dan Daniel > wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 16:02:40 GMT, Bob M > wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 07:54:31 -0700, Ryan Cousineau >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article >,
>>>> Bob M > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I just bought a LeMond bike to get behind the pedals and a longer top
>>>>> tube compared to my current bike (a Trek), for which I've had to buy
>>>>> set-back seat posts and very long stems in order to have proper
>>>>> positioning. Anyway, I've only ridden the LeMond once, so I'm still
>>>>> adjusting the seat position. However, for my current seat position,
>>>>> when I'm on the brake hoods, I can see about half the front axle
>>>>> relative to the handlebars, and when I'm on the drops, I can see all
>>>>> of the front axle and about 1/2 inch - 1 inch more from the handlebars
>>>>> to the axle. Is it true that the handlebars should block the axle
>>>>> when you're in your normal riding position (the brake hoods for me)?
>>>>
>>>> No.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Then how do you size it? Assuming that the knee-pedal axle distance is
>>> correct, I have too much weight on my hands, as they hurt. Do I just
>>> keep getting longer stems until the pain goes away?
>>
>> Why do you think a *longer* stem will help with too much weight on the
>> hands? That seems reversed to me.
>
>My reason for this is that I had weight on my hands, then I adjusted my
>seat backward a bit at about 13 miles into my ride. (I adjusted the seat
>backwards because I felt I was too far forward on the pedals.) The weight
>on my hands decreased. Up until that point, my hands were going numb.
>After that point, my hands felt better. I still feel a bit compressed.
>
>

Ok, now I get it. And looking at the article by Peter White that
'Scott' posted talked about just this point- as you move the saddle
back, you can balance fore and aft easier and put less weight on the
hands. Nice article!

>> Handlebar height can be a big factor in weight distribution, also.
>
>Unfortunately, with the idiotic threadless systems now in use, it's hard to
>raise the handlebar and dangerous to lower it. (Dangerous from the
>standpoint that you can't raise it.) I do feel that the hoods and
>handlebar need to be rotated downward. Or perhaps you're talking about
>getting a handlebar with less rise (or more rise)? That's a good idea.
>
I was referring to rise, but rotating the bars is also part of the
game. I rotate based on comfortable palm position when on the brake
hoods since that is where my hands are most of the time. Raising or
lowering the handlebars is another one of those tricky areas.
Personally I've found that a longer *and* higher stem has been a help.
If I raise the handlebars without moving them forward, I get cramped.
If I lower them without moving them back, I get neck pain, especially
as my stomach has grown over the years making it uncomfortable to roll
forward as far as I used to.

Go talk to the bike shop (or find one willing to work with you on
this, and accept that you bought from a lesser shop and move on except
for warranty stuff) and try different stems- rise and length. Many, if
not most, stems have a removable face plate that makes swapping easy
and quick. Two or three loaner setups and then you can buy a stem that
you know will work.


>
>Thanks. Tomorrow, I'll ride it for 20 miles; I'll see what happens. The
>rear half of the bike feels great, much better than my old bike. On my old
>bike, I could never get my knees behind the pedal axles.

Enjoy it. A few tweaks and maybe a new part or two and before you know
it you'll not even notice the new bike any more it will be so natural.

[Stergios Papadakis]

Bob M wrote:
>

> Unfortunately, with the idiotic threadless systems now in use, it's hard to
> raise the handlebar and dangerous to lower it. (Dangerous from the
> standpoint that you can't raise it.)

Just move spacers from below the stem to above
the stem. Do not cut the steerer tube shorter.
That way, you can lower it and raise it again
later if you like.

It is unfortunate that new bike makers cut
the steerer tube to some length they think
is best. They should just supply it with
spacers above and below for adjustability.

Stergios

[Robin Hubert]

"Bob M" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 07:54:31 -0700, Ryan Cousineau >
wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > Bob M > wrote:
> >
> >> I just bought a LeMond bike to get behind the pedals and a longer top
> >> tube compared to my current bike (a Trek), for which I've had to buy
> >> set-back seat posts and very long stems in order to have proper
> >> positioning. Anyway, I've only ridden the LeMond once, so I'm still
> >> adjusting the seat position. However, for my current seat position,
> >> when I'm on the brake hoods, I can see about half the front axle
> >> relative to the handlebars, and when I'm on the drops, I can see all of
> >> the front axle and about 1/2 inch - 1 inch more from the handlebars to
> >> the axle. Is it true that the handlebars should block the axle when
> >> you're in your normal riding position (the brake hoods for me)?
> >
> > No.
> >
>
> Then how do you size it? Assuming that the knee-pedal axle distance is
> correct, I have too much weight on my hands, as they hurt. Do I just keep
> getting longer stems until the pain goes away?
>

No, Bob, you need to move your butt further back or loose some upper body
weight. Perhaps a slacker seat angle?



--
Robin Hubert >

[Rick Onanian]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 03:19:11 GMT, Robin Hubert >
wrote:
>> correct, I have too much weight on my hands, as they hurt. Do I just
>> keep getting longer stems until the pain goes away?
>
> No, Bob, you need to move your butt further back or loose some upper body
> weight. Perhaps a slacker seat angle?

Boy, if I could just choose to lose some upper body weight,
not only would my hands feel better (I have too much weight
on them, too, like other posters here), but I'd be a faster
cyclist, and I could wear a cycling jersey without making
others vomit...

Okay, I'm not THAT bad, but I could stand to lose my beer shelf.

> --
> Robin Hubert >
--
Rick Onanian

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article >, (Eric Murray)
wrote:

> In article >,
> Bob M > wrote:
> >
> >My reason for this is that I had weight on my hands, then I adjusted my
> >seat backward a bit at about 13 miles into my ride. (I adjusted the seat
> >backwards because I felt I was too far forward on the pedals.) The weight
> >on my hands decreased. Up until that point, my hands were going numb.
> >After that point, my hands felt better. I still feel a bit compressed.

Okay, first off, don't listen to anyone who tells you to move your seat
to fix your hand problem. The hierarchy of interacting fit adjustments
is thus:

1) set your seat to the correct position relative to the pedals. This
means correct height and setback, followed by any fine angle adjustments
that might be necessary to make you comfortable. KOPS is not the only
way to fit this, but it makes a good working start. I recommend getting
within range by starting with one of the "inseam times constant" base
measurements floating around, and then adjust the seat up and down very
slightly if you experience knee pain or other discomfort.

2) set the reach and the height of your handlebars to conform to what is
comfortable. You're trying not to go numb, though I would point out the
availability of multiple hand positions on road bars. Did you use them
all?

Bar height and reach is a series of compromises involving comfort, power
output, and aerodynamics. Going for any one extreme is probably wrong,
but your preference must be focussed on your intended purpose. If you're
trying to commute or get fit, just get your bars into a comfortable but
not necessarily aero position. Rivendell's website says they should be
higher than racers have them for most riders. I think that's reasonable.

If you are racing, put em out farther and lower to get your back flatter
and encourage you to push on the pedals more. Too low or too far and
you'll compromise power, though. TT riders may compromise power slightly
in exchange for better aero.

In your situation, you say you feel a little compressed. Too low? Are
your thighs smacking your belly? Don't laugh, I've been there. If so,
you may need bar height more than a reach adjustment. Don't forget that
threadless stems with any angle to them can be flipped over for extra
range or just a different adjustment.

> >Unfortunately, with the idiotic threadless systems now in use, it's hard to
> >raise the handlebar and dangerous to lower it. (Dangerous from the
> >standpoint that you can't raise it.)
>
> Sure you can. Just put a spacer above the stem.
> Even the pros do it. If you go too far, move'em back.
>
> That "idiotic" threadless system
> lets you swap to a longer stem without having to
> undo all the bar tape and remove the brake levers.
> And it's easier to adjust than a threaded headset.
> Personally I wouldn't go back.

Threadless, whatever its virtues, is not the same as a removable-cap
design. I assure you that threaded stems are available with removable
caps, as I installed one on my Mikado garage-sale special. A "Zoom"
brand with considerable rise, it makes what is now my father's commuter
bike very comfortable for him.

The virtues of threaded stems are small gains in lightness and strength,
not to mention the slight tingle you get from knowing that a certain
part of the bike is now better designed (not that it stops me from
owning a very nice threaded-stem road bike).

> > I do feel that the hoods and
> >handlebar need to be rotated downward. Or perhaps you're talking about
> >getting a handlebar with less rise (or more rise)? That's a good idea.
>
> If you want to rotate the hoods down you probably
> want the bars lower. Move some spacers above the stem.

Listen to Eric. He doesn't know stems, but he's right about the fit :).


--
Ryan Cousineau, http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

[Rick Onanian]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:42:02 -0700, Ryan Cousineau > wrote:
> In your situation, you say you feel a little compressed. Too low? Are
> your thighs smacking your belly? Don't laugh, I've been there. If so, you

That is me. I figured that in a good position, it would be normal
for my thighs to smack my belly, which is...er...enhanced. ;) If
I recline in a chair a moderate amount, the top of my belly is a
beer shelf.

> may need bar height more than a reach adjustment. Don't forget that
> threadless stems with any angle to them can be flipped over for extra
> range or just a different adjustment.

I have a stem that's longer and higher, but it's just a bit too
much for my front brake cable. I have to spend some time changing
that before the new stem will fit. You make me confident that the
stem will be a definite improvement.

>> If you want to rotate the hoods down you probably
>> want the bars lower. Move some spacers above the stem.
>
> Listen to Eric. He doesn't know stems, but he's right about the fit :).

How about bar angle relative to the ground? Any reccomendations?
I rotated my bar down so that the bottom of the drops slope
down from rear to front, and the angle going from the bottom to
the curve is more close to being level than it is close to being
straight up and down.

My hands haven't been numb, but have been painful as if I had too
much weight on them; also, my wrists pained as if I've got them
bent back too much. I'm hoping the adjustment I made will at least
help the wrists.

Note: Check your cleat bolts! My right foot (but not my left) was
painful yesterday while riding, and when I went to adjust the
cleat, I found that the bolt was very loose and that's why the
cleat was out of adjustment.

--
Rick Onanian

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Unfortunately, with the idiotic threadless systems now in use, it's hard
to
> raise the handlebar and dangerous to lower it. (Dangerous from the
> standpoint that you can't raise it.) I do feel that the hoods and
> handlebar need to be rotated downward. Or perhaps you're talking about
> getting a handlebar with less rise (or more rise)? That's a good idea.

Since you have a LeMond, you've got 4cm of fork column sitting above the
headset... that's a *lot* of room for adjustment. You can move the stem up
and down a considerably amount by simply moving spacers to the bottom or top
of it, in addition to flipping the stem one way or the other. In addition,
flipping the stem will also result in a subtle change in reach as well.
Plus, you can very easily swap out to a different stem as well, since it's a
front-loading design that allows you to change stems without having to take
everything off the handlebars (unless you make such a major change that it
requires re-cabling things).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article >,
Rick Onanian > wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:42:02 -0700, Ryan Cousineau > wrote:
> > In your situation, you say you feel a little compressed. Too low? Are
> > your thighs smacking your belly? Don't laugh, I've been there. If so, you
>
> That is me. I figured that in a good position, it would be normal
> for my thighs to smack my belly, which is...er...enhanced. ;) If
> I recline in a chair a moderate amount, the top of my belly is a
> beer shelf.
>
> > may need bar height more than a reach adjustment. Don't forget that
> > threadless stems with any angle to them can be flipped over for extra
> > range or just a different adjustment.
>
> I have a stem that's longer and higher, but it's just a bit too
> much for my front brake cable. I have to spend some time changing
> that before the new stem will fit. You make me confident that the
> stem will be a definite improvement.

A cable change is a minor pain, but you just do it. Fit is important.

> >> If you want to rotate the hoods down you probably
> >> want the bars lower. Move some spacers above the stem.
> >
> > Listen to Eric. He doesn't know stems, but he's right about the fit :).
>
> How about bar angle relative to the ground? Any reccomendations?
> I rotated my bar down so that the bottom of the drops slope
> down from rear to front, and the angle going from the bottom to
> the curve is more close to being level than it is close to being
> straight up and down.

Sheldon Brown has one. I think the general idea is to start with the
drops parallel to the ground or something, and rotate as necessary.

> Note: Check your cleat bolts! My right foot (but not my left) was
> painful yesterday while riding, and when I went to adjust the
> cleat, I found that the bolt was very loose and that's why the
> cleat was out of adjustment.

Seriously. Loose cleat bolts are really dangerous, since you suddenly
can't clip out.


--
Ryan Cousineau, http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

[Rick Onanian]

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 17:48:42 -0700, Ryan Cousineau > wrote:
> A cable change is a minor pain, but you just do it. Fit is important.

Did it last night. :)

>> How about bar angle relative to the ground? Any reccomendations?
>
> Sheldon Brown has one. I think the general idea is to start with the
> drops parallel to the ground or something, and rotate as necessary.

I thought I heard that somewhere. Well, I rotated them so the
bottom points up at me a little, and I think that will help,
along with the new stem.

>> Note: Check your cleat bolts! My right foot (but not my left) was
>
> Seriously. Loose cleat bolts are really dangerous, since you suddenly
> can't clip out.

I didn't even think of that. It doesn't matter much with the
pedals I have, though, because I can never seem to get clipped
in to them, but they let me out easy enough. I've ordered some
Nashbar SPDs that I hope ought to be better, and I've got a
birthday coming up...gonna ask for some egg beaters. :)

--
Rick Onanian

[Zoot Katz]

Thu, 31 Jul 2003 16:49:10 -0400, >,
Rick Onanian > wrote:

>Nashbar SPDs that I hope ought to be better, and I've got a
>birthday coming up...gonna ask for some egg beaters. :)

They don't work with loose cleats either.
--
zk

[Rick Onanian]

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:56:54 -0700, Zoot Katz >
wrote:
>> Nashbar SPDs that I hope ought to be better, and I've got a
>> birthday coming up...gonna ask for some egg beaters. :)
>
> They don't work with loose cleats either.

My Wellgo R4s don't work no matter how well the cleats are
secured. Not to mention, one-sided engagement, and that
side always faces down. I've managed to get used to flipping
them up, but I can never find the sweet spot where they'll
clip, and it takes a lot of force when I do; and they come
unclipped easily.

I have Shimano SPDs on my MTB and here's how I get in them:
I begin to pedal. It goes 'click'. Done.

My Wellgos work like this:
Look down. Flip pedal. Look down some more, try to align
foot. Push. Cleat gets caught on pedal without engaging.
Move foot. Push. Shoe falls off side of pedal, top tube
gets friendly with my genitals. Cry or vomit. Look down.
Flip pedal. Put foot on pedal. Push. Cleat gets caught.
Wiggle foot. Foot falls off pedal. Look down. Flip pedal.
Put foot on pedal. Push. Nothing. Pull. Wow, I'm clipped
in. Ride for awhile. Foot flies off pedal.

Further, it's impossible to ride these while not clipped
in. I can ride my SPDs right away, and click in later, or
just wait until it clicks itself in [usually immediately].
These Wellgos...I can't move the crankarm a millimeter
without my foot falling off if I'm not in. This is
especially unsafe in automotive traffic.
--
Rick Onanian

[mark freedman]

Bob M > wrote in message >...
> On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:42:02 -0700, Ryan Cousineau > wrote:
>> >
> >
> I have flipped the stem -- I didn't realize you could do this until the

Some people also move the spacers around, i.e. have some spacers
above the stem. Ugly, but cutting the steerer tube limits your
options.

>I used to ride on the drops all the time, but that was in AZ, where
it was >flat. Here in CT, I'm constantly riding up hill.

I often use the drops when climbing,. since I can use my
back muscles to stabilize my body while exerting force on
the pedals.

You might find the articles on fit (and raising the stem) at
www.rivendellbicycles.com interesting. Different viewpoint from
what seems to be the current "wisdom." Sounds more like your
favoured position.

>> >> That "idiotic" threadless system
> >> lets you swap to a longer stem without having to
> >> undo all the bar tape and remove the brake levers.

Actually there are a few quill stems with two-bolt
clamps which allow this.



>
> > caps, as I installed one on my Mikado garage-sale special. A "Zoom" brand
>
You have a Mikado ? Did the frame break yet ?


> > The virtues of threaded stems are small gains in lightness and
strength,

Did you mean "threadless ?"
> >