E Bikes

[Fraser Johnston[_3_]]

Anyone here got one? I do a 25km each way commute and there is no way I
am up to it without assistance. I am thinking an ebike might be the
best way to get my arse out of the car. I have a coupe of bikes that
would do as a base for conversion but I am thinking it is probably
easier to buy one ready made off ebay for $800.

Fraser

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on Wed, 21 Sep 2011 13:51:10 +0800
Fraser Johnston > wrote:
> Anyone here got one? I do a 25km each way commute and there is no way I
> am up to it without assistance. I am thinking an ebike might be the
> best way to get my arse out of the car. I have a coupe of bikes that
> would do as a base for conversion but I am thinking it is probably
> easier to buy one ready made off ebay for $800.
>

First off, decide if you want to be legal ornot....

If you do then check your state laws. In NSW you arelimited to 200
watts.

When comparing bikes, take note of battery type and weight and
efficiency. You want the thing to be usable without a motor!

Bigest hassle with buying cheap off ebay is like buying anythign
cheap: how much work do you ahve to do to get the thing in reasonable
condition? You might be willing to go oevr it and get the bicycle
bits properly fettled and working well, you might not.

As far as I know the conversion is "replace the wheel with the
hub motor one, locate the battery somewhere, run the cables."

Zebee

[Techo]

For a trike check out
http://secure.oatleyelectronics.com//product_info.php?cPath=53&products_id=9
40&osCsid=78c9516a506712be955423b51a509ac6

this does not include the batteries but looks like good value and they are
in Sydney.


"Zebee Johnstone" > wrote in message
...
> In aus.bicycle on Wed, 21 Sep 2011 13:51:10 +0800
> Fraser Johnston > wrote:
> > Anyone here got one? I do a 25km each way commute and there is no way I
> > am up to it without assistance. I am thinking an ebike might be the
> > best way to get my arse out of the car. I have a coupe of bikes that
> > would do as a base for conversion but I am thinking it is probably
> > easier to buy one ready made off ebay for $800.
> >
>
> First off, decide if you want to be legal ornot....
>
> If you do then check your state laws. In NSW you arelimited to 200
> watts.
>
> When comparing bikes, take note of battery type and weight and
> efficiency. You want the thing to be usable without a motor!
>
> Bigest hassle with buying cheap off ebay is like buying anythign
> cheap: how much work do you ahve to do to get the thing in reasonable
> condition? You might be willing to go oevr it and get the bicycle
> bits properly fettled and working well, you might not.
>
> As far as I know the conversion is "replace the wheel with the
> hub motor one, locate the battery somewhere, run the cables."
>
> Zebee

[Fraser Johnston[_3_]]

On 22/09/11 1:45 PM, Zebee Johnstone wrote:

> First off, decide if you want to be legal ornot....
>
> If you do then check your state laws. In NSW you arelimited to 200
> watts.
>
> When comparing bikes, take note of battery type and weight and
> efficiency. You want the thing to be usable without a motor!
>
> Bigest hassle with buying cheap off ebay is like buying anythign
> cheap: how much work do you ahve to do to get the thing in reasonable
> condition? You might be willing to go oevr it and get the bicycle
> bits properly fettled and working well, you might not.
>
> As far as I know the conversion is "replace the wheel with the
> hub motor one, locate the battery somewhere, run the cables."


I'm thinking illegal. It's not like they are going to dyno it and I
will be riding it a fair way so having a fairly high average speed is
important. From what I see the conversion kits cost as much, if not
more, than a whole bike which means that I can get a whole bike and pull
the bits off and stick them on my current mountain bike and still be ahead.

Fraser

[John Henderson]

Fraser Johnston wrote:

> I'm thinking illegal. It's not like they are going to dyno it and I
> will be riding it a fair way so having a fairly high average speed is
> important.

Collide with a pedestrian, and somebody might take a keen
interest in the bike. I wouldn't want to shoulder all medical
costs because I was riding an unregistered vehicle.

That 200W limit is Australia-wide (enshrined in the Australian
Road Rules).

John

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on 29 Sep 2011 21:22:34 GMT
John Henderson > wrote:
> Fraser Johnston wrote:
>
>> I'm thinking illegal. It's not like they are going to dyno it and I
>> will be riding it a fair way so having a fairly high average speed is
>> important.
>
> Collide with a pedestrian, and somebody might take a keen
> interest in the bike. I wouldn't want to shoulder all medical
> costs because I was riding an unregistered vehicle.
>

I doubt it.

Unless the bike is very obviously overpower (eg you were speeding)
they might well not care.

There's a rumour that the power limit will be raised to 250 Watts but
that's been around for a while now.

pannonrider.com looks interesting. 250 watt nominal velomobile with
solar charging. The fairing and a reasonably fit rider could probably
get that going at a fair old speed.

I would love to see a graph of aerodynamics vs weight.

Zebee

[Rob]

On 30/09/2011 8:05 AM, Zebee Johnstone wrote:
> In aus.bicycle on 29 Sep 2011 21:22:34 GMT
> John > wrote:
>> Fraser Johnston wrote:
>>
>>> I'm thinking illegal. It's not like they are going to dyno it and I
>>> will be riding it a fair way so having a fairly high average speed is
>>> important.
>>
>> Collide with a pedestrian, and somebody might take a keen
>> interest in the bike. I wouldn't want to shoulder all medical
>> costs because I was riding an unregistered vehicle.
>>
>
> I doubt it.
>
> Unless the bike is very obviously overpower (eg you were speeding)
> they might well not care.
>
> There's a rumour that the power limit will be raised to 250 Watts but
> that's been around for a while now.
>
> pannonrider.com looks interesting. 250 watt nominal velomobile with
> solar charging. The fairing and a reasonably fit rider could probably
> get that going at a fair old speed.
>
> I would love to see a graph of aerodynamics vs weight.
>
> Zebee

Do they or can they reverse the flow when going downhill to recharge the
battery? Like the electric trains up and down the Blue Mountains putting
power back into the grid?

[John Henderson]

Rob wrote:

> Do they or can they reverse the flow when going downhill to recharge the
> battery? Like the electric trains up and down the Blue Mountains putting
> power back into the grid?

I'll bet they don't do regenerative braking. It'd add
significantly to the cost for very little gain. Most bikes don't
do much braking at all compared with higher speed, higher mass
vehicles.

John

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on Fri, 30 Sep 2011 15:31:46 +1000
Rob > wrote:
> On 30/09/2011 8:05 AM, Zebee Johnstone wrote:
>> pannonrider.com looks interesting. 250 watt nominal velomobile with
>> solar charging. The fairing and a reasonably fit rider could probably
>> get that going at a fair old speed.
>>
>> I would love to see a graph of aerodynamics vs weight.
>
> Do they or can they reverse the flow when going downhill to recharge the
> battery? Like the electric trains up and down the Blue Mountains putting
> power back into the grid?

No idea about that lot, they probably don't bother given they've gone
solar.

I know Greenspeed were looking at that for their Velomobile, and had
trialled it on some unfaired electric trikes.

Zebee

[Phil H[_2_]]

On Sep 30, 4:31*pm, Rob > wrote:

> Do they or can they reverse the flow when going downhill to recharge the
> battery? Like the electric trains up and down the Blue Mountains putting
> power back into the grid?

Regenerative braking is a fairly common feature on electric bike motor
controllers, or it was last time I looked. However, I think it's more
of a feel-good thing than a practical feature; the cumulative
inefficiencies involved mean that of the energy that goes into getting
the bike moving, only a very small proportion ends up back in the
battery.


-- Phil

[Rob]

On 4/10/2011 4:01 PM, Phil H wrote:
> On Sep 30, 4:31 pm, > wrote:
>
>> Do they or can they reverse the flow when going downhill to recharge the
>> battery? Like the electric trains up and down the Blue Mountains putting
>> power back into the grid?
>
> Regenerative braking is a fairly common feature on electric bike motor
> controllers, or it was last time I looked. However, I think it's more
> of a feel-good thing than a practical feature; the cumulative
> inefficiencies involved mean that of the energy that goes into getting
> the bike moving, only a very small proportion ends up back in the
> battery.
>
>
> -- Phil

Well why can't there be a generator on the front hub feeding the battery
- that would be topping it up all the time. Wonder how that would
translate into horse power loss of efficiency of the rear motor to drive
the generator?

[F Murtz[_2_]]

Rob wrote:
> On 4/10/2011 4:01 PM, Phil H wrote:
>> On Sep 30, 4:31 pm, > wrote:
>>
>>> Do they or can they reverse the flow when going downhill to recharge the
>>> battery? Like the electric trains up and down the Blue Mountains putting
>>> power back into the grid?
>>
>> Regenerative braking is a fairly common feature on electric bike motor
>> controllers, or it was last time I looked. However, I think it's more
>> of a feel-good thing than a practical feature; the cumulative
>> inefficiencies involved mean that of the energy that goes into getting
>> the bike moving, only a very small proportion ends up back in the
>> battery.
>>
>>
>> -- Phil
>
> Well why can't there be a generator on the front hub feeding the battery
> - that would be topping it up all the time. Wonder how that would
> translate into horse power loss of efficiency of the rear motor to drive
> the generator?


Here we go again, you get nothing for nothing.

[terryc]

John Henderson wrote:

> That 200W limit is Australia-wide (enshrined in the Australian
> Road Rules).

When did that happen?

[terryc]

Fraser Johnston wrote:
> On 22/09/11 1:45 PM, Zebee Johnstone wrote:

>> As far as I know the conversion is "replace the wheel with the
>> hub motor one, locate the battery somewhere, run the cables."
>
>
> I'm thinking illegal.

Why?
Is the motor power more than allowed in your state?

[Phil H[_2_]]

On Oct 4, 7:46*pm, Rob > wrote:

> Well why can't there be a generator on the front hub feeding the battery
> - that would be topping it up all the time. *Wonder how that would
> translate into horse power loss of efficiency of the rear motor to drive
> the generator?

To paraphrase Homer Simpson: in this country we obey the laws of
thermodynamics!

You're describing perpetual motion. It wouldn't work.


-- Phil

[Rob]

On 5/10/2011 9:29 AM, Phil H wrote:
> On Oct 4, 7:46 pm, > wrote:
>
>> Well why can't there be a generator on the front hub feeding the battery
>> - that would be topping it up all the time. Wonder how that would
>> translate into horse power loss of efficiency of the rear motor to drive
>> the generator?
>
> To paraphrase Homer Simpson: in this country we obey the laws of
> thermodynamics!
>
> You're describing perpetual motion. It wouldn't work.
>
>
> -- Phil


Maybe the word topping up isn't correct. I know you don't have perpetual
motion.

What I was suggesting was placing energy back into the battery so as to
extend the range of the charge, even if it was only 10%.

[tomasso]

"Rob" > wrote in message ...
> On 5/10/2011 9:29 AM, Phil H wrote:
>> On Oct 4, 7:46 pm, > wrote:
>>
>>> Well why can't there be a generator on the front hub feeding the battery
>>> - that would be topping it up all the time. Wonder how that would
>>> translate into horse power loss of efficiency of the rear motor to drive
>>> the generator?
>>
>> To paraphrase Homer Simpson: in this country we obey the laws of
>> thermodynamics!
>>
>> You're describing perpetual motion. It wouldn't work.
>>
>>
>> -- Phil
>
>
> Maybe the word topping up isn't correct. I know you don't have perpetual
> motion.
>
> What I was suggesting was placing energy back into the battery so as to
> extend the range of the charge, even if it was only 10%.

Good way to get fitter and lose a bit of weight.

T.

[F Murtz[_2_]]

Rob wrote:
> On 5/10/2011 9:29 AM, Phil H wrote:
>> On Oct 4, 7:46 pm, > wrote:
>>
>>> Well why can't there be a generator on the front hub feeding the battery
>>> - that would be topping it up all the time. Wonder how that would
>>> translate into horse power loss of efficiency of the rear motor to drive
>>> the generator?
>>
>> To paraphrase Homer Simpson: in this country we obey the laws of
>> thermodynamics!
>>
>> You're describing perpetual motion. It wouldn't work.
>>
>>
>> -- Phil
>
>
> Maybe the word topping up isn't correct. I know you don't have perpetual
> motion.
>
> What I was suggesting was placing energy back into the battery so as to
> extend the range of the charge, even if it was only 10%.

Only if you put more in,like pedal harder.

[John Henderson]

terryc wrote:

> John Henderson wrote:
>
>> That 200W limit is Australia-wide (enshrined in the Australian
>> Road Rules).
>
> When did that happen?

Earlier, rather than later IIRC. The earliest copy I've got is
2008, but it was there before then.

John

[John Henderson]

Rob wrote:

> What I was suggesting was placing energy back into the battery so as to
> extend the range of the charge, even if it was only 10%.

On your proposal, is the charging done only when the brakes are
applied?

If so, it'd require specialized brake levers with a switch.
Output of hub generators is typically 3W - given losses, much
closer than 1% of drive motor output than 10%, and only for the
short time spent braking.

If it's charging all the time, it would require extra rider
effort to produce that extra 3W. Either that or it (and more
to compensate for losses) will be drawn from the battery,
reducing both short and long term battery life.

John

[terryc]

John Henderson wrote:
> terryc wrote:
>
>> John Henderson wrote:
>>
>>> That 200W limit is Australia-wide (enshrined in the Australian
>>> Road Rules).
>> When did that happen?
>
> Earlier, rather than later IIRC. The earliest copy I've got is
> 2008, but it was there before then.

I thought is was 200 watts in NSW, but 250 watts in some other states
with victoria also requiring tha it didn't work unless the pedals were
turning. Perhaps that story from TimC about broken pedi-cabs was years ago.

[John Henderson]

terryc wrote:

> I thought is was 200 watts in NSW, but 250 watts in some other states
> with victoria also requiring tha it didn't work unless the pedals were
> turning. Perhaps that story from TimC about broken pedi-cabs was years ago.

One of the wonderful things about the uniform Australian Road
Rules is that individual states can make exceptions. It doesn't
often happen though.

It seems that Victoria has fallen into line on this one:

http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/SafetyAndRules/RoadRules/Bicycles.htm

John

[TimC[_2_]]

On 2011-10-06, John Henderson (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> terryc wrote:
>
>> I thought is was 200 watts in NSW, but 250 watts in some other states
>> with victoria also requiring tha it didn't work unless the pedals were
>> turning. Perhaps that story from TimC about broken pedi-cabs was years ago.
>
> One of the wonderful things about the uniform Australian Road
> Rules is that individual states can make exceptions. It doesn't
> often happen though.
>
> It seems that Victoria has fallen into line on this one:
>
> http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/SafetyAndRules/RoadRules/Bicycles.htm

"A motorised bicycle is not classed as a bicycle if:
the motor is the primary source of power"

You will probably find that it is deemed to be the primary source of
power if the motor can be turned on without pedalling. Hence the
pedal rotation sensors.

--
TimC
I SAW THIS ONE SPIDER THAT GOT BITTEN BY A
RADIOACTIVE SPIDER AND THE SPIDER GOT SPIDER POWERS!
- Ranjit Bhatnagar

[Freddy]

On 30/09/11 15:31, Rob wrote:

>
> Do they or can they reverse the flow when going downhill to recharge the
> battery? Like the electric trains up and down the Blue Mountains putting
> power back into the grid?

the Bionx system I was looking at a while back has regenerative braking
activated by a switch on one of the brake levers, it can also be setup
in a training mode where the regen is on all the time to provide a
resistance to pedalling, so that would be like cycling up a very long
hill :)