best internal shifting hub?

[Khoomei]

What is the best internal shifting hub on these important points:
- reasonably lightweight compared to a road group
- reliable operation
- parts are available from the usual channels, not some guy working
out of his garage.
- has more than 3 speeds.

[Antti Salonen]

In rec.bicycles.tech Khoomei > wrote:

> What is the best internal shifting hub on these important points:
> - reasonably lightweight compared to a road group
> - reliable operation
> - parts are available from the usual channels, not some guy working
> out of his garage.
> - has more than 3 speeds.

The 14-speed Rohloff Speedhub should satisfy all these requirements (and
many more), especially as you didn't specify any price limitations. See:

http://www.rohloff.de/?p=PRODUKTE/SPEEDHUB

It's about $800, available for example from Harris Cyclery.

-as

[(Pete Cresswell)]

RE/
>What is the best internal shifting hub on these important points:
>- reasonably lightweight compared to a road group
>- reliable operation
>- parts are available from the usual channels, not some guy working
>out of his garage.
>- has more than 3 speeds.

Depending on one's definition of "reasonably lightweight", there may not be much
left.

Rohloff adds about two pounds to the bike, is less efficient, makes considerable
noise, and costs an arm and a leg.


I just bought a second one for my hardtail.
-----------------------
PeteCresswell

[Khoomei]

How about for drop bars as well?

On 27 Jul 2003 21:16:31 GMT, Antti Salonen
> wrote:

>In rec.bicycles.tech Khoomei > wrote:
>
>> What is the best internal shifting hub on these important points:
>> - reasonably lightweight compared to a road group
>> - reliable operation
>> - parts are available from the usual channels, not some guy working
>> out of his garage.
>> - has more than 3 speeds.
>
>The 14-speed Rohloff Speedhub should satisfy all these requirements (and
>many more), especially as you didn't specify any price limitations. See:
>
>http://www.rohloff.de/?p=PRODUKTE/SPEEDHUB
>
>It's about $800, available for example from Harris Cyclery.
>
>-as

[Sheldon Brown]

Khoomei wrote:
> How about for drop bars as well?

See: http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/rohloff.html

Scroll down about 2/3 of the way.

Sheldon "Roll On" Brown
+-----------------------------------+
| Habit is the nursery of errors. |
| --Victor Hugo |
+-----------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

[Khoomei]

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 21:59:06 -0400, Sheldon Brown
> wrote:

>Khoomei wrote:
>> How about for drop bars as well?
>
>See: http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/rohloff.html
>
>Scroll down about 2/3 of the way.

I never thought I'd see the return of stem shifters!

That Surly with 2 sets of bars is awesome.

"Tuva or Bust!"
http://www.fotuva.org

[Tom Ace]

Khoomei wrote:

> How about for drop bars as well?

A German company (Norwid) makes a separable road
handlebar suitable for mounting the Rohloff twist grip.
Last I heard, these bars were available through Rohloff's
US office (contact info at www.rohloffusa.com).

Or you can make your own twist grip:
http://www.qnet.com/~crux/twist.html


Tom Ace

[Chalo]

Khoomei > wrote:

> What is the best internal shifting hub on these important points:
> - reasonably lightweight compared to a road group
> - reliable operation
> - parts are available from the usual channels, not some guy working
> out of his garage.
> - has more than 3 speeds.

It seems like all gearhubs from 4 to 14 speeds weigh about the same
1.7 kg, give or take. With some you get a brake, making those
effectively a little lighter.

Only the Rohloff Speedhub gives step sizes between gears that compare
to a road group. However, Sachs's and Shimano's 7 speed hubs give
overall ranges similar to that of a road bike. (Road bike with 53/39
crank and 12-23 block: 260% Sachs/SRAM 7 speed: 303% Shimano Nexus
7-speed: 244%)

If you need lots of gearing range and you can afford the Rohloff, then
that's the one for you. I have had two, and I don't think anyone
would find reason to switch back once accustomed to the Rohloff.

If the price of the Rohloff is too much committment and/or you would
like a drum brake, I recommend the Sachs/SRAM Spectro 7 speed. It is
the most free-running gearhub (with more than 3 speeds) I have used,
it seems quite durable, and the brake works consistently with minimal
fade.

Chalo Colina

[Ted Bennett]

> If you need lots of gearing range and you can afford the Rohloff, then
> that's the one for you. I have had two, and I don't think anyone
> would find reason to switch back once accustomed to the Rohloff.
>
> Chalo Colina



I am interested in hearing a little more from Chalo on the Rohloff, and
his reasons for buying them. (Chalo, aka Bluto is knowledgeable about
machining, materials and manufacturing, and is a super-size kind of
fellow.)

Chalo, have you ever taken one apart, either out of curiosity or
necessity? If so, did inspecting the innards lower or raise your
initial evaluation?

--
Ted Bennett
Portland OR

[Khoomei]

What about the durability of the Rohloff hub? I always heard about how
great Phil Wood hubs are. I was very disappointed with them and
repeatedly trashed the insides (esp. where the pawls bite into). You
would think with all the gears inside the Rohloff that something is
likely to go in a relatively short period of time. I weigh over 200
pounds too. You can imagine that I'm seeing myself spend $800 and then
thrash the gears and its junk on the side of the road. Then I'm
opening the hub up trying to figure out where 100 gears fit in there.

So you're saying that there is more friction? Is that when coasting?
only when applying force to the cog?

I think the shifter on drop bars is not ready for prime time. If only
someone could come up with a decent shifter for drop bars. I like the
concept though. If these kinds of hubs are very reliable, then they
sound great.

Are we saying that if we take a road bike with say Ultegra trip and
STI and switch to Rohloff and no derailleurs that its going to be
roughly 2 pounds heavier? I'm just trying to get a ballpark figure.

I wish Shimano was more flexible with the road group components. As it
is STI is not cyclocross friendly in terms of brakes.



On 28 Jul 2003 15:58:22 -0700, (Chalo) wrote:

>Khoomei > wrote:
>
>> What is the best internal shifting hub on these important points:
>> - reasonably lightweight compared to a road group
>> - reliable operation
>> - parts are available from the usual channels, not some guy working
>> out of his garage.
>> - has more than 3 speeds.
>
>It seems like all gearhubs from 4 to 14 speeds weigh about the same
>1.7 kg, give or take. With some you get a brake, making those
>effectively a little lighter.
>
>Only the Rohloff Speedhub gives step sizes between gears that compare
>to a road group. However, Sachs's and Shimano's 7 speed hubs give
>overall ranges similar to that of a road bike. (Road bike with 53/39
>crank and 12-23 block: 260% Sachs/SRAM 7 speed: 303% Shimano Nexus
>7-speed: 244%)
>
>If you need lots of gearing range and you can afford the Rohloff, then
>that's the one for you. I have had two, and I don't think anyone
>would find reason to switch back once accustomed to the Rohloff.
>
>If the price of the Rohloff is too much committment and/or you would
>like a drum brake, I recommend the Sachs/SRAM Spectro 7 speed. It is
>the most free-running gearhub (with more than 3 speeds) I have used,
>it seems quite durable, and the brake works consistently with minimal
>fade.
>
>Chalo Colina

[Chris Neary]

> You
>would think with all the gears inside the Rohloff that something is
>likely to go in a relatively short period of time. I weigh over 200
>pounds too. You can imagine that I'm seeing myself spend $800 and then
>thrash the gears and its junk on the side of the road. Then I'm
>opening the hub up trying to figure out where 100 gears fit in there.

No experience with the Rohloff, but myself and many other Bike Friday owners
have had good experience with the Sachs 3 X 7 (and 8 and 9...) hubs on
Tandem Twos'days.

Tandems make 200 pound loads look like nothing.


Chris Neary


"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

[Paul Hamilton]

Compared to a road group, they are all about 2 pounds (1 kg) heavier.
They all are more reliable than a derailleur. Parts availability
should be good for all of them, although repairs will more likely
involve the factory rather than some guy in a garage. Going on 4,000
trouble-free miles on my Nexus-7, whose' one disadvantage is a
narrower overall gear range than on a typical derailleur bike.

Paul

[Chalo]

Chris Neary > wrote:

> No experience with the Rohloff, but myself and many other Bike Friday owners
> have had good experience with the Sachs 3 X 7 (and 8 and 9...) hubs on
> Tandem Twos'days.
>
> Tandems make 200 pound loads look like nothing.

But small wheels significantly reduce a hub's torque load compared to
full-sized ones.

Chalo Colina

[(Pete Cresswell)]

RE/
>Frankly I'd be a little surprised if the difference were a
>whole two pounds or 900g, but it's in the ballpark.

It's got to depend on the weight of what it's replacing.

The one I put on my FS replaced a SRAM 9.0 setup. I weighed the whole bike
before and after and the diff was almost precisely 2 pounds.
-----------------------
PeteCresswell

[Edward Kleinbard]

I'm obviously in no position to quarrel with Pete Cresswell's scale,
but I wonder whether some of the weight pick-up he measured is
attributable to the torsion bar that one generally has to use when
converting existing bikes? The torsion bar is not needed if you are
building a new bike with Rohloff dropouts.
My Rohloff bike is a bit heavier, I imagine, than a derailleur bike
with a triple chainring (which one also needs to factor in, to be
fair), but I would have guessed that the number was a little lower
than reported by Pete. But since my bike was built for the Rohloff,
I'm not able to offer a precise before and after comparison.

As to the Speedhub's efficiency, there are some newish articles on
that topic in English at the Rohloff Germany site. (www.rohloff.de) My
own anecdotal conclusions, which now have been tested by riding the
same route on conventional and Speedhub-equipped bikes, are (i) I'm
pretty slow on any bike, (ii) the Speedhub seems equally efficient
when compared to a derailleur system in the top seven gears, and a bit
less efficient in the bottom seven, and (iii) the actual efficiency
differences are very minor. I'm coming to the view that many of us
(including me) are thrown off by the aural clues of the Speedhub, so
that when we hear those little gears whirring in some of the low
gears, we subconsciously interpret that as vast quantities of energy
being wasted. Unfortunately, I've found that switching to my
derailleur bike doesn't get me in fact to the top of the hill all that
much faster.

Finally, as to reliability, I do remember Rohloff boasting a year or
two ago that they never had the inner guts of a Speedhub fail in
service, but I don't know whether they can still make that claim. The
only issues that I have encountered, or remember reading about on the
web, are (i) the possibility of oil leaks, which in fact are said not
to be catastrophic at all (although a thirsty hub does run more
noisily), and (ii) the possibility of the snap-apart connectors that
enable you to disengage the shift cable, so you can remove the rear
wheel, failing, which turns your 14 speed into a 1 speed, until you
replace the cable.

Hope this helps.

Ed Kleinbard


"(Pete Cresswell)" > wrote in message >...
> RE/
> >Frankly I'd be a little surprised if the difference were a
> >whole two pounds or 900g, but it's in the ballpark.
>
> It's got to depend on the weight of what it's replacing.
>
> The one I put on my FS replaced a SRAM 9.0 setup. I weighed the whole bike
> before and after and the diff was almost precisely 2 pounds.
> -----------------------
> PeteCresswell

[Chalo]

(Edward Kleinbard) wrote:

> I'm obviously in no position to quarrel with Pete Cresswell's scale,
> but I wonder whether some of the weight pick-up he measured is
> attributable to the torsion bar that one generally has to use when
> converting existing bikes? The torsion bar is not needed if you are
> building a new bike with Rohloff dropouts.

I thought about that after having posted my comments. Both my
Rohloff-hubbed bikes have been equipped with the dropout torque tab
and thus did not use the torque arm and its QR socket. The difference
is probably less than 200g, but it does exist.

Chalo Colina

[(Pete Cresswell)]

RE/
> ...wonder whether some of the weight pick-up he measured is
>attributable to the torsion bar...

The bar, axle plate, and fittings to secure it to the stay weigh in at 125
grams. I used the SpeedBone instead...considerably less. So I think I'd stick
with the 2 pounds.

> I'm coming to the view that many of us
>(including me) are thrown off by the aural clues of the Speedhub, so
>that when we hear those little gears whirring in some of the low
>gears, we subconsciously interpret that as vast quantities of energy
>being wasted.

I'd agree with that 100%...the sound *has* to be working on my mind - although
the second one I bought seems less noisy - they're using a different oil now and
we'll see when I change the old hub to the new oil.

>Finally, as to reliability, I do remember Rohloff boasting a year or
>two ago that they never had the inner guts of a Speedhub fail in
>service,

Stay tuned - I'm working on being the first. Just switched from a 34-tooth
ring (not recommended by Rohloff) to a 32-tooth ring (even more not
recommended...). Even so I'm 220, I'm in early geezerhood and I can't imagine
that even with 32 on the front that I'm putting anywhere near the stress on the
thing that a couple of reasonably fit tandem riders would.


-----------------------
PeteCresswell

[S. Delaire \Rotatorrecumbent\]

My 2 cents worth
Chet Kyle and Jim Browning set up a testing rig with the purpose of
finding the most efficient transmission system. Write up appeared in an
issue of Human Power.
Their conclusion:
Nothing beats a standard derailleur system for lowest power lost.
The Rohloff was good in some gears and bad in others. I seem to recall
the efficiency changed by 15% over the range of gears. Overall the
Rohloff is a beautiful piece of engineering and craftsmanship.
Strange as it sounds a Shimano Nexus 7 tested the best of all the
internal hubs in terms of efficiency in transferring power. Only a
couple of percent lower the a derailleur system.
Biggest problem with it, in my opinion is, no quick release for easy
tire repair.
Rohloff does have a QR
The old style Sturmey Archer tested poorly.
Speedy


Khoomei wrote:

> What is the best internal shifting hub on these important points:
> - reasonably lightweight compared to a road group
> - reliable operation
> - parts are available from the usual channels, not some guy working
> out of his garage.
> - has more than 3 speeds.



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