700/38 vs 700/23 tyres on a "comfort" hybrid commuter bike.

[Travis]

I've just been given a decent flat bar hybrid/comfort bike for
commuting and it has 700/38 tyres on it.

For my roadie I use skinnier 700/23 tyres and I've got a whole
cupboard full of spare tubes and tyres in that size.

The rims on the hybrid so seem a little wider than those on the
roadie, a couple of mm I'd say, but they're basically the same size.

The fitted 700/38s are a bit crap looking (the rubber looks a little
brittle) and the tube inside was in bad condition because someone had
inflated it and ridden around on it while it was not evenly bedded
down, so it was scrunched up on itself and had a few holes I had to
patch.

Are there likely to be any issues with me running 700/23s on this bike
or should I buy new and wider tyres and tubes?

The bike will be used for a daily commute, approx 200-250km a week
carrying 95kg me, maybe 10-15kg of panniers over the back wheel and
the bike itself.

As it is for commuting and I consider the roadie to be my "fast" bike,
my main priorities here are just that it will be reliable. Not too
many flats and broken spokes. Ride comfort is not a big deal to me,
the bike has suspension front and seat, if 100psi thin roadie tyres
will work without damage that's what I'd prefer.

Travis

[Rob]

On 5/11/2011 2:22 PM, Travis wrote:
> I've just been given a decent flat bar hybrid/comfort bike for
> commuting and it has 700/38 tyres on it.
>
> For my roadie I use skinnier 700/23 tyres and I've got a whole
> cupboard full of spare tubes and tyres in that size.
>
> The rims on the hybrid so seem a little wider than those on the
> roadie, a couple of mm I'd say, but they're basically the same size.
>
> The fitted 700/38s are a bit crap looking (the rubber looks a little
> brittle) and the tube inside was in bad condition because someone had
> inflated it and ridden around on it while it was not evenly bedded
> down, so it was scrunched up on itself and had a few holes I had to
> patch.
>
> Are there likely to be any issues with me running 700/23s on this bike
> or should I buy new and wider tyres and tubes?
>
> The bike will be used for a daily commute, approx 200-250km a week
> carrying 95kg me, maybe 10-15kg of panniers over the back wheel and
> the bike itself.
>
> As it is for commuting and I consider the roadie to be my "fast" bike,
> my main priorities here are just that it will be reliable. Not too
> many flats and broken spokes. Ride comfort is not a big deal to me,
> the bike has suspension front and seat, if 100psi thin roadie tyres
> will work without damage that's what I'd prefer.
>
> Travis

When I had a road bike it had 27x ? and these tyres become unavailable
I had to use a wider tyre and I did notice the difference in the effort
used.

For me the narrow tyre would be best.

If as you say the 23's are available why not give them a go?

[Travis]

On Nov 6, 9:12*am, Rob > wrote:

> When I had a road bike it had 27x ? *and these tyres become unavailable
> I had to use a wider tyre and I did notice the difference in the effort
> used.
>
> For me the narrow tyre would be best.
>
> If as you say the 23's are available why not give them a go?

The immediate answer to "why not give them a go?" is because if it's a
bad idea I'd prefer to be warned in advance by people who may have
tried it instead of finding out the hard way by having an accident far
from home when the tyre slips off the rim or something while I
corner. :)

Travis

[Zebee Johnstone]

In aus.bicycle on Sat, 5 Nov 2011 19:46:59 -0700 (PDT)
Travis > wrote:
>
> The immediate answer to "why not give them a go?" is because if it's a
> bad idea I'd prefer to be warned in advance by people who may have
> tried it instead of finding out the hard way by having an accident far
> from home when the tyre slips off the rim or something while I
> corner. :)

If no one here can help try asking on uk.rec.cycling.moderated

plenty of helpful bods there with all sorts of experience.

Zebee

[Geoff Lock[_3_]]

On 06/11/11 13:46, Travis wrote:
> On Nov 6, 9:12 am, > wrote:

>>
>> For me the narrow tyre would be best.
>>
>> If as you say the 23's are available why not give them a go?
>
> The immediate answer to "why not give them a go?" is because if it's a
> bad idea I'd prefer to be warned in advance by people who may have
> tried it instead of finding out the hard way by having an accident far
> from home when the tyre slips off the rim or something while I
> corner. :)

Heheheh!! 95kgs coming off a bike is an ugly sight, indeed :) But as me
mate Gazza would say, "Skin grows back". Funny he never had nuffin to
say about me chipped tooth when I went face first into the pavement but
that is another story.

Look, Travis, if I was you, I'd whack on the 700x23 tyres, then take it
real slow until you know what they do. You did say the rims were only a
couple of mms wider, right? It's a quick dirty way of finding out -
PROVIDED YOU TAKE IT EASY FOR THE FIRST FEW RIDES. Note that the
inflation of the inner tube would cause the 700x23 tyre to fill out and
the tyre will most likely clinch quite well on the 700x20something rim
you have on the MTB.

Another way is to shift the 700x23 rims over to the MTB but this could
be a bit of a hassle cos you'll need to redo the spokes and the hub -
hubs on roadies are shorter/narrower than hubs on MTBs. Also you'll have
both the roadie AND the MTB not rolling at the same time.

Yet another way is to beg, borrow or steal a set of 700x23 roadie rims
and a set of MTB rims and do the roadie2MTB spoke+hub swap leisurely
while you test out the 700x23 tyres on a 700x20something rims on the MTB.

Alternatively, just stay with the 700x38 and all is sweet - with the
exception of having 2 different sets of tyres+tubes to contend with -
which was what I decided to do when I had this exact same predicament
sometime ago. Laziness usually wins these kinds of debates :)

But if wanna have a go, mate, you got nothing to lose and if you take it
real gentle with your experiments, you could save a bit of money whilst
building those two bikes up to be real weapons :)

Good luck :)

[Patrick]

On 8/11/2011 2:57 PM, Geoff Lock wrote:
> On 06/11/11 13:46, Travis wrote:
>> On Nov 6, 9:12 am, > wrote:
>
>>>
>>> For me the narrow tyre would be best.
>>>
>>> If as you say the 23's are available why not give them a go?
>>
>> The immediate answer to "why not give them a go?" is because if it's a
>> bad idea I'd prefer to be warned in advance by people who may have
>> tried it instead of finding out the hard way by having an accident far
>> from home when the tyre slips off the rim or something while I
>> corner. :)
>
> Heheheh!! 95kgs coming off a bike is an ugly sight, indeed :) But as me
> mate Gazza would say, "Skin grows back". Funny he never had nuffin to
> say about me chipped tooth when I went face first into the pavement but
> that is another story.
>
> Look, Travis, if I was you, I'd whack on the 700x23 tyres, then take it
> real slow until you know what they do. You did say the rims were only a
> couple of mms wider, right? It's a quick dirty way of finding out -
> PROVIDED YOU TAKE IT EASY FOR THE FIRST FEW RIDES. Note that the
> inflation of the inner tube would cause the 700x23 tyre to fill out and
> the tyre will most likely clinch quite well on the 700x20something rim
> you have on the MTB.
>
> Another way is to shift the 700x23 rims over to the MTB but this could
> be a bit of a hassle cos you'll need to redo the spokes and the hub -
> hubs on roadies are shorter/narrower than hubs on MTBs. Also you'll have
> both the roadie AND the MTB not rolling at the same time.
>
> Yet another way is to beg, borrow or steal a set of 700x23 roadie rims
> and a set of MTB rims and do the roadie2MTB spoke+hub swap leisurely
> while you test out the 700x23 tyres on a 700x20something rims on the MTB.
>
> Alternatively, just stay with the 700x38 and all is sweet - with the
> exception of having 2 different sets of tyres+tubes to contend with -
> which was what I decided to do when I had this exact same predicament
> sometime ago. Laziness usually wins these kinds of debates :)
>
> But if wanna have a go, mate, you got nothing to lose and if you take it
> real gentle with your experiments, you could save a bit of money whilst
> building those two bikes up to be real weapons :)
>
> Good luck :)

On the other hand, how much is that skin worth?

You can buy two wider "city" tyres which are designed for the wider rim
width and will give you better ride and wear (and slightly higher
rolling resistance) for about $30 a pair. If $30 is a lot to you then
experiment as Geoff says :-) If not then you may decide that it is worth
it to purchase the wider tyres.

[John Henderson]

Patrick wrote:

> You can buy two wider "city" tyres which are designed for the wider rim
> width and will give you better ride and wear (and slightly higher
> rolling resistance) for about $30 a pair. If $30 is a lot to you then
> experiment as Geoff says :-) If not then you may decide that it is worth
> it to purchase the wider tyres.

Higher rolling resistance with a wider tyre?

Only if it's run at a lower inflation pressure.

At the same pressure (and other things being equal) the wider
tyre has the lower rolling resistance. That's because the
contact patch area (the area touching the road) is the same
regardless of width. And the wider tyre has less deformation,
since its contact patch is wider and shorter.

Feeling that a narrow tyre is quicker is so often all in the
mind. Just like all those motorists who swear that their car
runs better after an oil change.

John

[Rob]

On 9/11/2011 7:10 AM, John Henderson wrote:
> Patrick wrote:
>
>> You can buy two wider "city" tyres which are designed for the wider rim
>> width and will give you better ride and wear (and slightly higher
>> rolling resistance) for about $30 a pair. If $30 is a lot to you then
>> experiment as Geoff says :-) If not then you may decide that it is worth
>> it to purchase the wider tyres.
>
> Higher rolling resistance with a wider tyre?
>
> Only if it's run at a lower inflation pressure.
>
> At the same pressure (and other things being equal) the wider
> tyre has the lower rolling resistance. That's because the
> contact patch area (the area touching the road) is the same
> regardless of width. And the wider tyre has less deformation,
> since its contact patch is wider and shorter.
>
> Feeling that a narrow tyre is quicker is so often all in the
> mind. Just like all those motorists who swear that their car
> runs better after an oil change.
>
> John


Its true wider tyres will have a higher rolling resistance. Even just a
small increase.

[John Henderson]

Rob wrote:

> Its true wider tyres will have a higher rolling resistance. Even just a
> small increase.

That's a myth, and a false one at that. See eg:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/3suok2f

John

[F Murtz[_2_]]

John Henderson wrote:
> Rob wrote:
>
>> Its true wider tyres will have a higher rolling resistance. Even just a
>> small increase.
>
> That's a myth, and a false one at that. See eg:
>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/3suok2f
>
> John


What about the fact that the skinny tyre is often run at over 100 PSI
and the fat tyre at 40 PSI

[John Henderson]

F Murtz wrote:

> What about the fact that the skinny tyre is often run at over 100 PSI
> and the fat tyre at 40 PSI

Run the wide tyre at its rated maximum instead of 40 PSI. It'll
be more comfortable, stable and faster than a narrow tyre run at
the same pressure. There are 2"/50mm tyres with 65, 70 and even
85 PSI ratings.

Thare's no doubt that your 40 vs 100 PSI comparison favours the
narrow tyre for rolling resistance.

Aerodynamics also favours the narrow tyre for lower drag, but not
at commuting speeds.

John

[Theo Bekkers[_2_]]

"John Henderson" wrote
> F Murtz wrote:

>> What about the fact that the skinny tyre is often run at over 100
>> PSI
>> and the fat tyre at 40 PSI

> Run the wide tyre at its rated maximum instead of 40 PSI. It'll
> be more comfortable, stable and faster than a narrow tyre run at
> the same pressure. There are 2"/50mm tyres with 65, 70 and even
> 85 PSI ratings.
>
> Thare's no doubt that your 40 vs 100 PSI comparison favours the
> narrow tyre for rolling resistance.
>
> Aerodynamics also favours the narrow tyre for lower drag, but not
> at commuting speeds.

We've had this discussion before and there's no argument that the
rolling resistance of a wide tire and a narrow tire are the same when
both are at the same pressure. However, the narrow tire will
invariably have a higher recommended tire pressure, so when a wide and
a narrow tire are inflated to their recommended pressures, the narrow
tire will have a smaller contact patch and a lower rolling resistance.

The argument that a wide and a narrow tire have the same rolling
resistance is therefore spurious.

Theo

[TimC[_2_]]

On 2011-11-09, Theo Bekkers (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> We've had this discussion before and there's no argument that the
> rolling resistance of a wide tire and a narrow tire are the same when
> both are at the same pressure. However, the narrow tire will
> invariably have a higher recommended tire pressure, so when a wide and

Not quite invariably. I upgraded one of my early bikes by replacing
the stock 45PSI tyres with 80PSI ones. Same dimensions, but heck of a
lot better to ride on! Stupid kmart bikes <--- BTH bait.

> a narrow tire are inflated to their recommended pressures, the narrow
> tire will have a smaller contact patch and a lower rolling resistance.
>
> The argument that a wide and a narrow tire have the same rolling
> resistance is therefore spurious.

And for the wider tyre, pumped to the same pressure, because there is
a larger radius, it will take a lower deflection before the wider tyre
ends up with a wider contact patch. I am skeptical that this will
lead to a lower resistance.

--
TimC
I've told them and told them: Temporal anomalies are different from
spatial anomalies. But the kittens know better. They laugh at my
feeble attempts to fool them. -- barbara in ARK

[John Henderson]

Theo Bekkers wrote:

> We've had this discussion before and there's no argument that the
> rolling resistance of a wide tire and a narrow tire are the same when
> both are at the same pressure. However, the narrow tire will
> invariably have a higher recommended tire pressure, so when a wide and
> a narrow tire are inflated to their recommended pressures, the narrow
> tire will have a smaller contact patch and a lower rolling resistance.
>
> The argument that a wide and a narrow tire have the same rolling
> resistance is therefore spurious.

It's by no means certain that:

1) a narrower tyre will invariably have a higher recommended
maximum pressure, or

2) a narrower tyre will be inflated to a higher pressure.

The argument in favour of wider tyres stands on its merits.

John

[Rob]

On 9/11/2011 9:35 AM, John Henderson wrote:
> Rob wrote:
>
>> Its true wider tyres will have a higher rolling resistance. Even just a
>> small increase.
>
> That's a myth, and a false one at that. See eg:
>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/3suok2f
>
> John

It is my experience that I quote, can't help that.

Both the same pressure. my 27" rim bike had a narrow tyre which I
couldn't replace unless I used a wider tyre. The size is think it went
from 3/4 to 1" and it did make a difference.

[Tomasso[_8_]]

"John Henderson" > wrote in message
...
> Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
>> We've had this discussion before and there's no argument that the
>> rolling resistance of a wide tire and a narrow tire are the same when
>> both are at the same pressure. However, the narrow tire will
>> invariably have a higher recommended tire pressure, so when a wide and
>> a narrow tire are inflated to their recommended pressures, the narrow
>> tire will have a smaller contact patch and a lower rolling resistance.
>>
>> The argument that a wide and a narrow tire have the same rolling
>> resistance is therefore spurious.
>
> It's by no means certain that:
>
> 1) a narrower tyre will invariably have a higher recommended
> maximum pressure, or
>
> 2) a narrower tyre will be inflated to a higher pressure.
>
> The argument in favour of wider tyres stands on its merits.
>
> John

You could try 700-18 tyres and a 13 mm rim width, inflated to 160 psi of
Helium.

[Dave Hughes]

On Wed, 09 Nov 2011 16:42:01 +1100, Rob wrote:

> Both the same pressure. my 27" rim bike had a narrow tyre which I
> couldn't replace unless I used a wider tyre. The size is think it went
> from 3/4 to 1" and it did make a difference.

There are other factors - trad, construction, thickness, bead and material
- which all contribute to what for want of a better word I'll call a
tyre's "ride". As a general rule, and by no means absolute, wider tyres
are aimed at more casual riders. They're cheaper, so use lower grade
rubber that is less elastic, might have tread that looks good but does
bugger all but absorb energy, and quite probably weigh a truckload more.
All of that contributes to a much slower tyre.

If you can find a high quality 38mm tyre you can chuck 100psi in and have
a pretty good ride that'll be marginally faster than a 23mm tyre of
similar quality and construction at 100psi. This is a good option for the
back wheel of a commuter which tends to be harder to unweight due to
panniers, etc. Maxxis do something in that size, because I've got one on
the back of my commuter right now [1]. Anecdotally, the day I put it on is
the first day I've broken 20 minutes for my commute in both directions in
a single day in ages. That would have nothing to do with traffic lights,
feeling OK, wind, load, or any other conditions, of course.

Narrower tyres are probably quicker up hills by a similar margin as the
fatter tyres are quicker down and along the flats though, due to their
lighter weight. In all cases the difference is going to be 3/5 of bugger
all though!

[1] well, the width is probably a touch greater, and the height a touch
lower at this exact moment. Bloody bogan droppings!

--
Dave Hughes -
We are, in fact, at the cutting edge of cocking about
- Richard Hammond, Top Gear

[[email protected]]

John Henderson wrote:
> Feeling that a narrow tyre is quicker is so often all in the
> mind. Just like all those motorists who swear that their car
> runs better after an oil change.

Well... that depends on how long it's been since the oil was last changed.

I can remember performing an oil change where we had to remove the sump and pull globs of grease-like "oil" out by hand, because the owner of the vehicle in question had only ever "topped up".the oil. For 100,000km.


BTH

[[email protected]]

TimC wrote:
> On 2011-11-09, Theo Bekkers (aka Bruce)
> was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> > We've had this discussion before and there's no argument that the
> > rolling resistance of a wide tire and a narrow tire are the same when
> > both are at the same pressure. However, the narrow tire will
> > invariably have a higher recommended tire pressure, so when a wide and
>
> Not quite invariably. I upgraded one of my early bikes by replacing
> the stock 45PSI tyres with 80PSI ones. Same dimensions, but heck of a
> lot better to ride on! Stupid kmart bikes <--- BTH bait.

Oh I agree Tim, kmart bikes ARE rubbish! You have to go to BigW to get a good one! :-)


BTH

[Tomasso[_8_]]

> wrote in message
news:28743628.1379.1321186019522.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prou19...
> TimC wrote:
>> On 2011-11-09, Theo Bekkers (aka Bruce)
>> was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
>> > We've had this discussion before and there's no argument that the
>> > rolling resistance of a wide tire and a narrow tire are the same when
>> > both are at the same pressure. However, the narrow tire will
>> > invariably have a higher recommended tire pressure, so when a wide and
>>
>> Not quite invariably. I upgraded one of my early bikes by replacing
>> the stock 45PSI tyres with 80PSI ones. Same dimensions, but heck of a
>> lot better to ride on! Stupid kmart bikes <--- BTH bait.
>
> Oh I agree Tim, kmart bikes ARE rubbish! You have to go to BigW to get a
> good one! :-)
>
> BTH

But I believe you can still buy 27 inch tyres at K-Mart...

T.

[terryc]

Tomasso wrote:

> But I believe you can still buy 27 inch tyres at K-Mart...

Taah, thanks for the heads up. I have a few petrified tyres that need
replacment. {:-).

[John Henderson]

terryc wrote:

> Taah, thanks for the heads up. I have a few petrified tyres that need
> replacment. {:-).

The last time I bought a 27 x 1 1/4 tyre from K-Mart, the
sidewall blew out within the first two kilometres. And it was
far from being overinflated.

John