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View Full Version : Suspend or not? Plus trike q's.


Ian
June 30th 03, 05:23 PM
I have been riding a rear suspension only Challenge Wizard for a couple of
years, but due to an old knee injury am switching to a trike, I already have
a non suspension Kett Weizel and find with the mesh seat that this is more
comfortable than the 2 wheeler even though I then had a rear shock.
I plan on going for a tadpole trike, what are peoples thoughts on suspension
on trikes?

Also it may be my imagination, and it may only be here in the U.K. but it
seems that the general reaction to a recumbent trike is better than a
recumbent bike, on the Wizard I got mixed responses from pedestrians, from
very positive right through to very negative, however since switching to the
trike I have experienced no negativity, at church on Sunday morning in fact
I was giving rides to all and sundry.

I am planning to start selling trikes as a business, I used to work as a
cycle engineer years ago and do all my own servicing, repairs etc... as well
as a lot of other peoples, I think the resistance to adult trikes is more or
less non existant in the U.K., how are they viewed in the U.S.A.?

Ian

rorschandt
June 30th 03, 09:06 PM
Ian > wrote in :

> I have been riding a rear suspension only Challenge Wizard for a


Rear suspension gets my vote. There are very few tadpole trikes with front
suspension, for several good reasons.
Response to my trikes has been good overall. Tadpoles don't appear to
suffer from the geriatric stigma deltas might. In the U.S.A. , DF
performance trikes never really caught on. When I mention trikes without
mine present, the image called up appears to be the "retired Aunt Gladys in
Florida" type of trike.

Recumbent folk (so far) seem very willing to entertain thoughts about
recumbent trikes.

> I am planning to start selling trikes as a business, I used to work as
> a cycle engineer years ago and do all my own servicing, repairs etc...
> as well as a lot of other peoples, I think the resistance to adult
> trikes is more or less non existant in the U.K., how are they viewed
> in the U.S.A.?
>

I do wish you the best in your endeavor.

rorschandt
http://pictures.care2.com/view/1/174801833
>



--
<A ]">

rorschandt
June 30th 03, 09:06 PM
Ian > wrote in :

> I have been riding a rear suspension only Challenge Wizard for a


Rear suspension gets my vote. There are very few tadpole trikes with front
suspension, for several good reasons.
Response to my trikes has been good overall. Tadpoles don't appear to
suffer from the geriatric stigma deltas might. In the U.S.A. , DF
performance trikes never really caught on. When I mention trikes without
mine present, the image called up appears to be the "retired Aunt Gladys in
Florida" type of trike.

Recumbent folk (so far) seem very willing to entertain thoughts about
recumbent trikes.

> I am planning to start selling trikes as a business, I used to work as
> a cycle engineer years ago and do all my own servicing, repairs etc...
> as well as a lot of other peoples, I think the resistance to adult
> trikes is more or less non existant in the U.K., how are they viewed
> in the U.S.A.?
>

I do wish you the best in your endeavor.

rorschandt
http://pictures.care2.com/view/1/174801833
>



--
<A ]">

Tom Sherman
July 1st 03, 02:06 AM
Ian wrote:
>
> I have been riding a rear suspension only Challenge Wizard for a couple of
> years, but due to an old knee injury am switching to a trike, I already have
> a non suspension Kett Weizel and find with the mesh seat that this is more
> comfortable than the 2 wheeler even though I then had a rear shock.
> I plan on going for a tadpole trike, what are peoples thoughts on suspension
> on trikes?
>
> Also it may be my imagination, and it may only be here in the U.K. but it
> seems that the general reaction to a recumbent trike is better than a
> recumbent bike, on the Wizard I got mixed responses from pedestrians, from
> very positive right through to very negative, however since switching to the
> trike I have experienced no negativity, at church on Sunday morning in fact
> I was giving rides to all and sundry.
>
> I am planning to start selling trikes as a business, I used to work as a
> cycle engineer years ago and do all my own servicing, repairs etc... as well
> as a lot of other peoples, I think the resistance to adult trikes is more or
> less non existant in the U.K., how are they viewed in the U.S.A.?

My Sunset and Dragonflyer have identical seats, approximately the same
seat recline, the same drivewheel size, and fat rear tires with similar
inflation pressures. Bumps that lift me off the seat on the Sunset are
hardly worth noticing on the Dragonflyer.

In addition, I can mash a big gear uphill with no noticeable suspension
pogo on the Dragonflyer despite its simple design (just a spring with no
shock absorber). I believe that this is due to the use of a step-up
jackshaft on the same axis as the suspension pivot. [1]

If I were building a trike, it would have a step-up jackshaft and rear
suspension.

[1] The step-up also allows for wider range gearing and small
chainrings, since it increases the effective rear wheel size for gearing
purposes.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities
Red Sunset and Blue Dragonflyer :)

Tom Sherman
July 1st 03, 02:06 AM
Ian wrote:
>
> I have been riding a rear suspension only Challenge Wizard for a couple of
> years, but due to an old knee injury am switching to a trike, I already have
> a non suspension Kett Weizel and find with the mesh seat that this is more
> comfortable than the 2 wheeler even though I then had a rear shock.
> I plan on going for a tadpole trike, what are peoples thoughts on suspension
> on trikes?
>
> Also it may be my imagination, and it may only be here in the U.K. but it
> seems that the general reaction to a recumbent trike is better than a
> recumbent bike, on the Wizard I got mixed responses from pedestrians, from
> very positive right through to very negative, however since switching to the
> trike I have experienced no negativity, at church on Sunday morning in fact
> I was giving rides to all and sundry.
>
> I am planning to start selling trikes as a business, I used to work as a
> cycle engineer years ago and do all my own servicing, repairs etc... as well
> as a lot of other peoples, I think the resistance to adult trikes is more or
> less non existant in the U.K., how are they viewed in the U.S.A.?

My Sunset and Dragonflyer have identical seats, approximately the same
seat recline, the same drivewheel size, and fat rear tires with similar
inflation pressures. Bumps that lift me off the seat on the Sunset are
hardly worth noticing on the Dragonflyer.

In addition, I can mash a big gear uphill with no noticeable suspension
pogo on the Dragonflyer despite its simple design (just a spring with no
shock absorber). I believe that this is due to the use of a step-up
jackshaft on the same axis as the suspension pivot. [1]

If I were building a trike, it would have a step-up jackshaft and rear
suspension.

[1] The step-up also allows for wider range gearing and small
chainrings, since it increases the effective rear wheel size for gearing
purposes.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities
Red Sunset and Blue Dragonflyer :)

Fred Klingener
July 1st 03, 06:02 PM
"Ian" > wrote in message
...
> I have been riding a rear suspension only Challenge Wizard for a couple of
> years, but due to an old knee injury am switching to a trike, I already
have
> a non suspension Kett Weizel and find with the mesh seat that this is more
> comfortable than the 2 wheeler even though I then had a rear shock.
> I plan on going for a tadpole trike, what are peoples thoughts on
suspension
> on trikes?

I ride a Greenspeed GTO (non-suspended tadpole), and IMO it's not usable on
gravel roads. The occasional pothole on a paved road is acceptable, but the
corduroy or gravel roads just shake my eyeteeth out and rattle them together
with my eyeballs in my brain case.

For the time being, I'm sticking with the GTO and the paved roads, but my
next trike will be suspended. If I built my own, I would suspend at least
the rear, and I would design a clamp that would (optionally) disable the
suspension. (I hereby place that terrific idea in the public domain.)

Too, I'd look hard at some way to get traction on gravel. I've had to walk
the GTO up many hills. Anti-squat in the rear, especially in the lower
(bigger rear) gears would improve it. Based on a casual inspection of
photographs of trike rear suspensions, I have the suspicion that builders
err on the wrong side when they go for 'anti-bob' suspension geometries.

HTH,
Fred Klingener

Fred Klingener
July 1st 03, 06:02 PM
"Ian" > wrote in message
...
> I have been riding a rear suspension only Challenge Wizard for a couple of
> years, but due to an old knee injury am switching to a trike, I already
have
> a non suspension Kett Weizel and find with the mesh seat that this is more
> comfortable than the 2 wheeler even though I then had a rear shock.
> I plan on going for a tadpole trike, what are peoples thoughts on
suspension
> on trikes?

I ride a Greenspeed GTO (non-suspended tadpole), and IMO it's not usable on
gravel roads. The occasional pothole on a paved road is acceptable, but the
corduroy or gravel roads just shake my eyeteeth out and rattle them together
with my eyeballs in my brain case.

For the time being, I'm sticking with the GTO and the paved roads, but my
next trike will be suspended. If I built my own, I would suspend at least
the rear, and I would design a clamp that would (optionally) disable the
suspension. (I hereby place that terrific idea in the public domain.)

Too, I'd look hard at some way to get traction on gravel. I've had to walk
the GTO up many hills. Anti-squat in the rear, especially in the lower
(bigger rear) gears would improve it. Based on a casual inspection of
photographs of trike rear suspensions, I have the suspicion that builders
err on the wrong side when they go for 'anti-bob' suspension geometries.

HTH,
Fred Klingener

July 1st 03, 07:39 PM
Fred Klingener > wrote:
: Too, I'd look hard at some way to get traction on gravel. I've had to walk
: the GTO up many hills. Anti-squat in the rear, especially in the lower
: (bigger rear) gears would improve it. Based on a casual inspection of
: photographs of trike rear suspensions, I have the suspicion that builders
: err on the wrong side when they go for 'anti-bob' suspension geometries.

Hmm can a trike slide backwards on gravel slopes? :p

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/hpv/hpv.html
varis at no spam please iki fi

July 1st 03, 07:39 PM
Fred Klingener > wrote:
: Too, I'd look hard at some way to get traction on gravel. I've had to walk
: the GTO up many hills. Anti-squat in the rear, especially in the lower
: (bigger rear) gears would improve it. Based on a casual inspection of
: photographs of trike rear suspensions, I have the suspicion that builders
: err on the wrong side when they go for 'anti-bob' suspension geometries.

Hmm can a trike slide backwards on gravel slopes? :p

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/hpv/hpv.html
varis at no spam please iki fi

July 1st 03, 07:42 PM
Joshua Goldberg > wrote:
: Having NO suspension on a Tadpole is a waste of a Tadpole, your frame won't
: ssurvive the abuse from the roads and Rail Trails.

Are tadpoles very fragile because of their geometry then? I'd
guess frames on bicycles (upstraight and bent) often last decades
and hundreds of thousands of kilos.

What kind of roads do you ride? :-)

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/hpv/hpv.html
varis at no spam please iki fi

July 1st 03, 07:42 PM
Joshua Goldberg > wrote:
: Having NO suspension on a Tadpole is a waste of a Tadpole, your frame won't
: ssurvive the abuse from the roads and Rail Trails.

Are tadpoles very fragile because of their geometry then? I'd
guess frames on bicycles (upstraight and bent) often last decades
and hundreds of thousands of kilos.

What kind of roads do you ride? :-)

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/hpv/hpv.html
varis at no spam please iki fi

July 1st 03, 07:47 PM
Christopher Jordan > wrote:
: I considered making a business of "importing" WizWheel, Catrike, S&B,
: and other trikes made in the U.S. and Canada. The overhead would be
: no problem, time, tools, interest, etc.., etc., etc. But the rent or
: lease would eat up my savings in one year. No way for me!! Best

How about selling/showcasing only in trade shows? And if somebody
wants a test ride - you can drive to him! Service huh? :-)

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/hpv/hpv.html
varis at no spam please iki fi

July 1st 03, 07:47 PM
Christopher Jordan > wrote:
: I considered making a business of "importing" WizWheel, Catrike, S&B,
: and other trikes made in the U.S. and Canada. The overhead would be
: no problem, time, tools, interest, etc.., etc., etc. But the rent or
: lease would eat up my savings in one year. No way for me!! Best

How about selling/showcasing only in trade shows? And if somebody
wants a test ride - you can drive to him! Service huh? :-)

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/hpv/hpv.html
varis at no spam please iki fi

Joshua Goldberg
July 1st 03, 09:45 PM
The mean streets of downtown Toronto. Streets that had their entire repair
and resurfacing budget for 5 years diverted to a fat bloated grossly
inefficient Public Transit system. As of now the Transit Authority has
ripped up 5 miles of street to replace streetcar tracks. This idiot move has
shifted all the cyclists onto an already car crowded street with another
street car line down the middle of it.

In a 2 week period I toasted one right front axle and both front hubs. In
Toronto there are 1 million cyclists using the streets daily alongside very
frustrated car and truck drivers. I have spoken to dozens of car owners who
have had their suspension systems torn out by the roads cyclists also ride
on. In my area of Toronto there are 24 bicycle repair shops charging on
average $30.00 per hour and they are backlogged several weeks for road
damage related repairs to MTBs. These are MTBs designed to survive jumping
logs and mounting rocks on trails...yet they are being wrecked on Toronto
streets.
It is almost a running joke in Toronto re: did you hear about the Pothole
that ate the car. I have seen Potholes that in Florida they call Sinkholes.
Holes you ride into on a bent and dissappear below the road surface....I
suspect soon homeless families will be living in these Potholes.

Funny as hell, one street I ride on has a designated Bicycle lane and last
week all the way down that street one wheel was missing from the painting of
the bike on the pavement. I see this as an Omen and the message is move out
of Toronto...or at least get out of the city core. I hear the burbs ain't so
bad except out there people drive like idiots because there are so few cops
around to nail them.
You need suspension in Toronto to survive and lately even suspension isn't
enough. One of my relatives is the Mayor of Toronto and he won't ride a
bicycle in the city he rules. Luckily he is retiring and the woman most feel
will replace him IS an avid cyclist. Hopefully she will get the roads fixed
before anymore cyclists have to die.
********************
> wrote in message
...
> Joshua Goldberg > wrote:
> : Having NO suspension on a Tadpole is a waste of a Tadpole, your frame
won't
> : ssurvive the abuse from the roads and Rail Trails.
>
> Are tadpoles very fragile because of their geometry then? I'd
> guess frames on bicycles (upstraight and bent) often last decades
> and hundreds of thousands of kilos.
>
> What kind of roads do you ride? :-)
>
> --
> Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/hpv/hpv.html
> varis at no spam please iki fi

Joshua Goldberg
July 1st 03, 09:45 PM
The mean streets of downtown Toronto. Streets that had their entire repair
and resurfacing budget for 5 years diverted to a fat bloated grossly
inefficient Public Transit system. As of now the Transit Authority has
ripped up 5 miles of street to replace streetcar tracks. This idiot move has
shifted all the cyclists onto an already car crowded street with another
street car line down the middle of it.

In a 2 week period I toasted one right front axle and both front hubs. In
Toronto there are 1 million cyclists using the streets daily alongside very
frustrated car and truck drivers. I have spoken to dozens of car owners who
have had their suspension systems torn out by the roads cyclists also ride
on. In my area of Toronto there are 24 bicycle repair shops charging on
average $30.00 per hour and they are backlogged several weeks for road
damage related repairs to MTBs. These are MTBs designed to survive jumping
logs and mounting rocks on trails...yet they are being wrecked on Toronto
streets.
It is almost a running joke in Toronto re: did you hear about the Pothole
that ate the car. I have seen Potholes that in Florida they call Sinkholes.
Holes you ride into on a bent and dissappear below the road surface....I
suspect soon homeless families will be living in these Potholes.

Funny as hell, one street I ride on has a designated Bicycle lane and last
week all the way down that street one wheel was missing from the painting of
the bike on the pavement. I see this as an Omen and the message is move out
of Toronto...or at least get out of the city core. I hear the burbs ain't so
bad except out there people drive like idiots because there are so few cops
around to nail them.
You need suspension in Toronto to survive and lately even suspension isn't
enough. One of my relatives is the Mayor of Toronto and he won't ride a
bicycle in the city he rules. Luckily he is retiring and the woman most feel
will replace him IS an avid cyclist. Hopefully she will get the roads fixed
before anymore cyclists have to die.
********************
> wrote in message
...
> Joshua Goldberg > wrote:
> : Having NO suspension on a Tadpole is a waste of a Tadpole, your frame
won't
> : ssurvive the abuse from the roads and Rail Trails.
>
> Are tadpoles very fragile because of their geometry then? I'd
> guess frames on bicycles (upstraight and bent) often last decades
> and hundreds of thousands of kilos.
>
> What kind of roads do you ride? :-)
>
> --
> Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/hpv/hpv.html
> varis at no spam please iki fi

Tom Sherman
July 2nd 03, 12:16 AM
wrote:
>
> Joshua Goldberg > wrote:
> : Having NO suspension on a Tadpole is a waste of a Tadpole, your frame won't
> : ssurvive the abuse from the roads and Rail Trails.
>
> Are tadpoles very fragile because of their geometry then? I'd
> guess frames on bicycles (upstraight and bent) often last decades
> and hundreds of thousands of kilos....

The loadings on bicycle frames transmitted through the wheels are
primarily vertical. On a trike, significant torsion forces are
transmitted through the frame.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

Tom Sherman
July 2nd 03, 12:16 AM
wrote:
>
> Joshua Goldberg > wrote:
> : Having NO suspension on a Tadpole is a waste of a Tadpole, your frame won't
> : ssurvive the abuse from the roads and Rail Trails.
>
> Are tadpoles very fragile because of their geometry then? I'd
> guess frames on bicycles (upstraight and bent) often last decades
> and hundreds of thousands of kilos....

The loadings on bicycle frames transmitted through the wheels are
primarily vertical. On a trike, significant torsion forces are
transmitted through the frame.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

Christopher Jordan
July 2nd 03, 01:01 AM
wrote in message >...
>
> Hmm can a trike slide backwards on gravel slopes? :p

Depends on the slope, I guess. Something I found out on my first
tadpole (S&B) with a motor- on gravel I could break traction, hit the
Currie motor full throttle, turn hard right or hard left, pedal like
crazy and do little donuts!

Not answering your question, but trikes can slide!!!

(I am so glad that I am over 50; so I can blame my foolish riding on
my 2nd childhood)

Chris Jordan
Santa Cruz, CA.

Christopher Jordan
July 2nd 03, 01:01 AM
wrote in message >...
>
> Hmm can a trike slide backwards on gravel slopes? :p

Depends on the slope, I guess. Something I found out on my first
tadpole (S&B) with a motor- on gravel I could break traction, hit the
Currie motor full throttle, turn hard right or hard left, pedal like
crazy and do little donuts!

Not answering your question, but trikes can slide!!!

(I am so glad that I am over 50; so I can blame my foolish riding on
my 2nd childhood)

Chris Jordan
Santa Cruz, CA.

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