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Moosh:]
July 31st 03, 09:54 AM
Hi folks. I'm dreaming of building a trike (that's code for designing
in my head :) I'm thinking of using 20" BMX wheels as they are pretty
tough. Someone on another group thought bike wheels might not be able
to take the side thrust of a multiwheeler, as they don't have to take
much of this on a two wheeler. Seeing some of the BMX stunts I
wouldn't be surprised it they can take a fair bit of side thrust.

I also want those old tyres with circumferential ribs so that when
pumped hard, only one thick rib touches the tarmac. Seems they are not
very popular in these days of go-anywhere knobblies on mountain bikes.
Any suggestions? I would also like one wheel with a three-speed hub
gear in it. Any ideas what bikes may come like this? I know there are
20" mountain bikes, but they come with knobblies and deraileurs from
what I can see. Maybe I just have to bite the bullet and get a LBS to
make me up some wheels.

Jeff Wills
July 31st 03, 06:34 PM
"Moosh:]" > wrote in message >...
> Hi folks. I'm dreaming of building a trike (that's code for designing
> in my head :) I'm thinking of using 20" BMX wheels as they are pretty
> tough. Someone on another group thought bike wheels might not be able
> to take the side thrust of a multiwheeler, as they don't have to take
> much of this on a two wheeler. Seeing some of the BMX stunts I
> wouldn't be surprised it they can take a fair bit of side thrust.

The *wheels* will be able to take it, but the *axles* might not. Most
commercial trikes use 12mm hardened bolts for axles, with the
unthreaded portion supporting sealed cartridge bearings. Using
smaller axles, or axles that are threaded all the way across, is
asking for trouble. Either is likely to break in short order.

(Note that this is only true on axles supported from one side. If
you're building a trike that supports the axle on both ends, standard
bike wheels will be fine.)

>
> I also want those old tyres with circumferential ribs so that when
> pumped hard, only one thick rib touches the tarmac. Seems they are not
> very popular in these days of go-anywhere knobblies on mountain bikes.
> Any suggestions?

Completely slick tires will give you lower rolling resistance than the
"center rib" type. Tioga Comp Pools are consistently reported to have
the lowest rolling resistance of any 20" tire.

>I would also like one wheel with a three-speed hub
> gear in it. Any ideas what bikes may come like this? I know there are
> 20" mountain bikes, but they come with knobblies and deraileurs from
> what I can see. Maybe I just have to bite the bullet and get a LBS to
> make me up some wheels.

A 20" wheel with a "simple" 3-speed internal hub would have to be
custom built. It's not all that difficult to build wheels, but if you
want to spend the money, have your bike shop do it for you.

20" wheels with the Sachs/SRAM "3x7" rear hub (a combination of
derailleur and internal gears) are used on a variety of recumbents,
including the late Bikee.

Jeff

Moosh:]
August 1st 03, 06:34 AM
On 31 Jul 2003 10:34:32 -0700, (Jeff Wills)
posted:

>"Moosh:]" > wrote in message >...
>> Hi folks. I'm dreaming of building a trike (that's code for designing
>> in my head :) I'm thinking of using 20" BMX wheels as they are pretty
>> tough. Someone on another group thought bike wheels might not be able
>> to take the side thrust of a multiwheeler, as they don't have to take
>> much of this on a two wheeler. Seeing some of the BMX stunts I
>> wouldn't be surprised it they can take a fair bit of side thrust.
>
>The *wheels* will be able to take it, but the *axles* might not. Most
>commercial trikes use 12mm hardened bolts for axles, with the
>unthreaded portion supporting sealed cartridge bearings. Using
>smaller axles, or axles that are threaded all the way across, is
>asking for trouble. Either is likely to break in short order.
>
>(Note that this is only true on axles supported from one side. If
>you're building a trike that supports the axle on both ends, standard
>bike wheels will be fine.)

Yep, I will be supporting both sides. Thanks for the confirmation.

>> I also want those old tyres with circumferential ribs so that when
>> pumped hard, only one thick rib touches the tarmac. Seems they are not
>> very popular in these days of go-anywhere knobblies on mountain bikes.
>> Any suggestions?
>
>Completely slick tires will give you lower rolling resistance than the
>"center rib" type. Tioga Comp Pools are consistently reported to have
>the lowest rolling resistance of any 20" tire.

Brilliant, thanks. It wasn't specifically the ribs I wanted, I just
assumed that these would be the least resistant to rolling.
Counter intuitive, I suppose.

>>I would also like one wheel with a three-speed hub
>> gear in it. Any ideas what bikes may come like this? I know there are
>> 20" mountain bikes, but they come with knobblies and deraileurs from
>> what I can see. Maybe I just have to bite the bullet and get a LBS to
>> make me up some wheels.
>
>A 20" wheel with a "simple" 3-speed internal hub would have to be
>custom built. It's not all that difficult to build wheels, but if you
>want to spend the money, have your bike shop do it for you.

Thanks, I just thought it would be quite complicated to get the
correct length of spoke, and thought a professional builder would have
a range on hand for trial-and-error.

>20" wheels with the Sachs/SRAM "3x7" rear hub (a combination of
>derailleur and internal gears) are used on a variety of recumbents,
>including the late Bikee.

They sound expensive. I actually have a Sturmey Archer FW 1958 brand
new in original box. If I build my own, I will put this in. I just
thought that if there were cheap 3-speed-hubbed wheels about, it might
be cheaper and easier.

Ian
August 1st 03, 10:55 AM
Moosh:] must be edykated coz e writed:

>
> They sound expensive. I actually have a Sturmey Archer FW 1958 brand
> new in original box. If I build my own, I will put this in. I just
> thought that if there were cheap 3-speed-hubbed wheels about, it might
> be cheaper and easier.
>
>
A 7 speed Shimano Nexus hub would not be overly expensive, and would not
have the false neutrals that the Sturmey has.

Ian

Moosh:]
August 1st 03, 02:20 PM
On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 10:55:49 +0100, Ian > posted:

>Moosh:] must be edykated coz e writed:
>
>>
>> They sound expensive. I actually have a Sturmey Archer FW 1958 brand
>> new in original box. If I build my own, I will put this in. I just
>> thought that if there were cheap 3-speed-hubbed wheels about, it might
>> be cheaper and easier.
>>
>>
>A 7 speed Shimano Nexus hub would not be overly expensive, and would not
>have the false neutrals that the Sturmey has.

How much? Looks like close to $300 Australian in an American site.
My FW is $ZERO.

BTW, aren't these false neutrals in the Sturmey 7?
I haven't heard of this problem in the FW.

As this will be multiplying a 15 speed deraileur, that will give me 60
ratios to play with. Plenty to keep my tiny brain amused :)

Jeff Wills
August 1st 03, 08:21 PM
"Moosh:]" > wrote in message >...
<snip>

> As this will be multiplying a 15 speed deraileur, that will give me 60
> ratios to play with. Plenty to keep my tiny brain amused :)

You're combining a 15 speed derailleur system with a 3 speed internal
hub? That's 45 speeds- and it's a tough proposition. The parts are
meant to be combined- you'll have to figure out how to fit the cogs on
the hub, extend the axle, figure out how to shift the hub, etc. etc.
It's not impossible- but other setups like this have been built by
very experienced bike mechanics. It's not something I'd attempt on my
first trike.

Jeff

Bill Hamilton
August 1st 03, 09:28 PM
(Jeff Wills) wrote in
om:

> "Moosh:]" > wrote in message
> >... <snip>
>
>> As this will be multiplying a 15 speed deraileur, that will give me
>> 60 ratios to play with. Plenty to keep my tiny brain amused :)
>
> You're combining a 15 speed derailleur system with a 3 speed internal
> hub? That's 45 speeds- and it's a tough proposition. The parts are
> meant to be combined- you'll have to figure out how to fit the cogs on
> the hub, extend the axle, figure out how to shift the hub, etc. etc.
> It's not impossible- but other setups like this have been built by
> very experienced bike mechanics. It's not something I'd attempt on my
> first trike.


Though it should be fairly easy using a mid-drive setup. Get a 7-speed
freewheel, replace the largest cog with a small chainring (or just leave
it). Align that gear with the cog on the 3-speed wheel, and mount a
derailleur for the bottom five gears for the crank/mid-drive chain.
Hardest part would be converting the freewheel to spin both directions
and then mounting it to the frame securely.

Biggest concern is to mount the mid-drive so that it doesn't contact the
ground; without the protection of the wheel, your derailleur could easily
strike the ground and mess up your day real quick.


-Bill Hamilton hasn't been planning a trike for his next project, nosiree
he hasn't. :)

Tom Sherman
August 2nd 03, 10:52 AM
Bill Hamilton wrote:
> ...
> Biggest concern is to mount the mid-drive so that it doesn't contact the
> ground; without the protection of the wheel, your derailleur could easily
> strike the ground and mess up your day real quick.
>
> -Bill Hamilton hasn't been planning a trike for his next project, nosiree
> he hasn't. :)

Bill,

Since you are not planning to build a trike with a mid-drive, I will not
suggest using rear suspension and making the mid-drive concentric with
the suspension pivot to eliminate pogo. [1]

[1] This works so well I can not understand why it has not been adopted
by recumbent designers - I guess they have not been lucky enough to ride
a Dragonflyer.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

rorschandt
August 2nd 03, 03:07 PM
Tom Sherman > wrote in
:

>
> Bill,
>
> Since you are not planning to build a trike with a mid-drive, I will
> not suggest using rear suspension and making the mid-drive concentric
> with the suspension pivot to eliminate pogo. [1]
>
> [1] This works so well I can not understand why it has not been
> adopted by recumbent designers - I guess they have not been lucky
> enough to ride a Dragonflyer.
>
> Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)
>

See http://pictures.care2.com/view/2/501192220
and a more blatant version http://pictures.care2.com/view/2/816427344
Does that last one look familiar? (^:

You probably meant "recumbent designers at current manufacturers" or
similar.

Cheers,
Rorschandt
"Had I known for the past few years I would end up with a design like a
Dragonflyer, I would have just saved my time and money and bought one."
~r.


)

Bill Hamilton
August 2nd 03, 03:53 PM
Tom Sherman > wrote in
:

>
> Bill Hamilton wrote:
>> ...
>> Biggest concern is to mount the mid-drive so that it doesn't contact
>> the ground; without the protection of the wheel, your derailleur
>> could easily strike the ground and mess up your day real quick.
>>
>> -Bill Hamilton hasn't been planning a trike for his next project,
>> nosiree he hasn't. :)
>
> Bill,
>
> Since you are not planning to build a trike with a mid-drive, I will
> not suggest using rear suspension and making the mid-drive concentric
> with the suspension pivot to eliminate pogo. [1]

I've been planning something like that. Right now, though, I'm working out
a front suspension that doesn't distort the front alignment when it
activates. I'm also trying to finish the recumbent bike I'm currently
building :) My projects tend to pile up behind my lack of time and
money. :(


-Bill Hamilton

Bill Hamilton
August 2nd 03, 03:57 PM
rorschandt > wrote in
. 4.11:


> See http://pictures.care2.com/view/2/501192220
> and a more blatant version http://pictures.care2.com/view/2/816427344
> Does that last one look familiar? (^:
>

Do you have a problem with the mid-drive derailleur hitting the ground when
you cross speedbumps and such?

>
> Cheers,
> Rorschandt
> "Had I known for the past few years I would end up with a design like a
> Dragonflyer, I would have just saved my time and money and bought one."

Yes, but think of all the fun you've had reinventing the wheel. :P


-Bill Hamilton

Tom Sherman
August 2nd 03, 04:49 PM
rorschandt wrote:
>
> See http://pictures.care2.com/view/2/501192220
> and a more blatant version http://pictures.care2.com/view/2/816427344
> Does that last one look familiar? (^:
>
> You probably meant "recumbent designers at current manufacturers" or
> similar.
>
> Cheers,
> Rorschandt
> "Had I known for the past few years I would end up with a design like a
> Dragonflyer, I would have just saved my time and money and bought one."
> ~r.

The rear end of the Psycle is similar, but the Dragonflyer has an
integrated pannier rack and lacks the selectively bred wolf. ;)

The Care2.com banner ad implies that all the members are penguins.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

rorschandt
August 3rd 03, 05:53 AM
Tom Sherman > wrote in
:

>grated pannier rack and lacks the selectively bred wolf. ;)
>
> The Care2.com banner ad implies that all the members are penguins.
>

Aren't they?

rorschandt

Moosh:]
August 3rd 03, 06:42 AM
On 1 Aug 2003 12:21:47 -0700, (Jeff Wills) posted:

>"Moosh:]" > wrote in message >...
><snip>
>
>> As this will be multiplying a 15 speed deraileur, that will give me 60
>> ratios to play with. Plenty to keep my tiny brain amused :)
>
>You're combining a 15 speed derailleur system with a 3 speed internal
>hub?

No, the FW is a four speed. (FW = Four Wide)

>That's 45 speeds- and it's a tough proposition. The parts are
>meant to be combined- you'll have to figure out how to fit the cogs on
>the hub, extend the axle, figure out how to shift the hub, etc. etc.
>It's not impossible- but other setups like this have been built by
>very experienced bike mechanics. It's not something I'd attempt on my
>first trike.

I'm using and intermediate shaft.

Moosh:]
August 3rd 03, 06:44 AM
On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 20:28:24 GMT, Bill Hamilton
> posted:

(Jeff Wills) wrote in
om:
>
>> "Moosh:]" > wrote in message
>> >... <snip>
>>
>>> As this will be multiplying a 15 speed deraileur, that will give me
>>> 60 ratios to play with. Plenty to keep my tiny brain amused :)
>>
>> You're combining a 15 speed derailleur system with a 3 speed internal
>> hub? That's 45 speeds- and it's a tough proposition. The parts are
>> meant to be combined- you'll have to figure out how to fit the cogs on
>> the hub, extend the axle, figure out how to shift the hub, etc. etc.
>> It's not impossible- but other setups like this have been built by
>> very experienced bike mechanics. It's not something I'd attempt on my
>> first trike.
>
>
>Though it should be fairly easy using a mid-drive setup. Get a 7-speed
>freewheel, replace the largest cog with a small chainring (or just leave
>it). Align that gear with the cog on the 3-speed wheel, and mount a
>derailleur for the bottom five gears for the crank/mid-drive chain.
>Hardest part would be converting the freewheel to spin both directions
>and then mounting it to the frame securely.
>
>Biggest concern is to mount the mid-drive so that it doesn't contact the
>ground; without the protection of the wheel, your derailleur could easily
>strike the ground and mess up your day real quick.

Thanks for the helpful advice, but I will be driving one of the front
wheels of a rear-steer tadpole. I will be using an intermediate shaft
ahead or the driven front wheel, (the one with the four speed hub),
and this will have one cog on one end to drive the wheel, and a rear
derailleur cluster on the other driven by the 3-chain-wheel pedal set
sticking out the front as per normal.

>-Bill Hamilton hasn't been planning a trike for his next project, nosiree
>he hasn't. :)

Fun :)

Tom Sherman
August 3rd 03, 01:55 PM
"Moosh:]" wrote:
>
> Suspension seems to me a luxury when you have suspension qualities in
> the tyres, seat and frame to a small extent. And I'm not planning on
> off-bitumen.

With three wheel tracks instead of one, it is very hard to avoid bumps
and potholes on a trike. With rear suspension it is only necessary to
straddle such pavement deformities with the front wheels.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

Bill Hamilton
August 3rd 03, 02:02 PM
"Moosh:]" > wrote in
:


> Suspension seems to me a luxury when you have suspension qualities in
> the tyres, seat and frame to a small extent. And I'm not planning on
> off-bitumen.
>
>

A car has "suspension qualities" in the tires, frame and seat as well. I
certainly wouldn't want to ride in one that doesn't have shocks. At least
not on the roads around here.


-Bill Hamilton

Moosh:]
August 5th 03, 12:03 PM
On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 13:02:57 GMT, Bill Hamilton
> posted:

>"Moosh:]" > wrote in
:
>
>
>> Suspension seems to me a luxury when you have suspension qualities in
>> the tyres, seat and frame to a small extent. And I'm not planning on
>> off-bitumen.
>>
>>
>
>A car has "suspension qualities" in the tires, frame and seat as well. I
>certainly wouldn't want to ride in one that doesn't have shocks. At least
>not on the roads around here.

But then four wheels are not always in contact with terra firma,
whereas three always can be. And of course cars will travel habitually
much faster than I will.

harv
August 8th 03, 06:59 PM
The springs absorb the hit, the shocks control the rebound of the spring so
you don't bounce. One without the other doesn't make a good suspension.
"Bill Hamilton" > wrote in message
.6...
> "Moosh:]" > wrote in
> :
>
>
> > Suspension seems to me a luxury when you have suspension qualities in
> > the tyres, seat and frame to a small extent. And I'm not planning on
> > off-bitumen.
> >
> >
>
> A car has "suspension qualities" in the tires, frame and seat as well. I
> certainly wouldn't want to ride in one that doesn't have shocks. At least
> not on the roads around here.
>
>
> -Bill Hamilton

Sticker Jim
September 3rd 03, 06:11 AM
Diamondback makes 3 flavours of 48 spoke, 14mm axle wheels. I can buy the
single wall black wheels for about $40 Cdn, the double walled chromies (high
rim wall) for about $50 Cdn and some cool black double wall aeros for about
$80. I weight ~230 lbs and regularily ride around on two wheels on my
trikes and have had no problem with the front wheels at all. I'm more
worried about the taco tendencies of my rear 26"ers.

These same rims come in rear hub versions and you can spin any
cassette/freewheel on it you want. If you're looking for more gearing than
a single derailer set, hook up a mid drive but make sure you give yourself
at least 6 or 7" of ground clearance for your mid drive derailler.

"Moosh:]" > wrote in message
...
> Hi folks. I'm dreaming of building a trike (that's code for designing
> in my head :) I'm thinking of using 20" BMX wheels as they are pretty
> tough. Someone on another group thought bike wheels might not be able
> to take the side thrust of a multiwheeler, as they don't have to take
> much of this on a two wheeler. Seeing some of the BMX stunts I
> wouldn't be surprised it they can take a fair bit of side thrust.
>
> I also want those old tyres with circumferential ribs so that when
> pumped hard, only one thick rib touches the tarmac. Seems they are not
> very popular in these days of go-anywhere knobblies on mountain bikes.
> Any suggestions? I would also like one wheel with a three-speed hub
> gear in it. Any ideas what bikes may come like this? I know there are
> 20" mountain bikes, but they come with knobblies and deraileurs from
> what I can see. Maybe I just have to bite the bullet and get a LBS to
> make me up some wheels.
>
>

Sticker Jim
September 3rd 03, 06:11 AM
Diamondback makes 3 flavours of 48 spoke, 14mm axle wheels. I can buy the
single wall black wheels for about $40 Cdn, the double walled chromies (high
rim wall) for about $50 Cdn and some cool black double wall aeros for about
$80. I weight ~230 lbs and regularily ride around on two wheels on my
trikes and have had no problem with the front wheels at all. I'm more
worried about the taco tendencies of my rear 26"ers.

These same rims come in rear hub versions and you can spin any
cassette/freewheel on it you want. If you're looking for more gearing than
a single derailer set, hook up a mid drive but make sure you give yourself
at least 6 or 7" of ground clearance for your mid drive derailler.

"Moosh:]" > wrote in message
...
> Hi folks. I'm dreaming of building a trike (that's code for designing
> in my head :) I'm thinking of using 20" BMX wheels as they are pretty
> tough. Someone on another group thought bike wheels might not be able
> to take the side thrust of a multiwheeler, as they don't have to take
> much of this on a two wheeler. Seeing some of the BMX stunts I
> wouldn't be surprised it they can take a fair bit of side thrust.
>
> I also want those old tyres with circumferential ribs so that when
> pumped hard, only one thick rib touches the tarmac. Seems they are not
> very popular in these days of go-anywhere knobblies on mountain bikes.
> Any suggestions? I would also like one wheel with a three-speed hub
> gear in it. Any ideas what bikes may come like this? I know there are
> 20" mountain bikes, but they come with knobblies and deraileurs from
> what I can see. Maybe I just have to bite the bullet and get a LBS to
> make me up some wheels.
>
>

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