2 WHEEL RIDING 101, Was Dangerous Curves

[Jerry Rhodes]

The phrase "strayed waaay over into the opposing traffic lane" brings
to mind the fact that if this poor guy that GeoB is talking about was
still upright when he got smacked he had not used up all of his
options.

I would guess that he found himself in a "crisis situation" and
started to "steer" away from impending doom and only made the
situation worse. All of this might be moot since he might have been
going so fast that increasing the lean in order to tighten the turn,
he might have gone down and crossed the roadway on his side and gotten
killed anyway.

Most of us learned to ride 2 wheelers as kids. We weren't interested
in the "meaning of life" we were interested in riding our bikes.
Eventually we got very good at riding without having a clue as to why.

Without getting into such things as centrifugal force or precession I
will try to explain a bit of the philosophy of two wheeler operation.

1) In order to turn any two wheeler you must first initiate a bank or
lean in the direction of the desired turn. This bank or lean can be
initiated in various ways. The most common being:

A) "Body english" or physically leaning or shifting body weight to the
inside of the desired turn. The bigger the mass of the bike the less
effective this
is.

B) Moving the wheel contact point out from under the center of mass of
the bike and rider causing the vehicle and rider to unbalance and
start to lean or bank in the opposite direction.

Since on most bents we are just large bags of water fixed to the seat
we can't use much "body english" so we must rely on the contact patch
for control.

If you want to turn right you MUST "steer" left to initiate the
required bank or lean to the right.

At low speed this may appear to the instinctive rider as a wobble. The
instinct to steer to the right immediately causes the bike to fall to
the left that is corrected by an instinctive jerk of the bars to the
left which then flops the rider in the proper direction where he/she
now can "steer " in the desired direction.

The real problems arise when, at higher speeds and in crisis
situations, the instinctive rider suddenly starts to THINK and
suppresses all that he/she has absorbed from years of instinctive
riding. Frantically steering away from impending doom only causes the
machine to seem to "misbehave". Not so, the machine is only doing
what the rider is telling it to do.

Try this the next time you are out on the bike or the Gold Wing. Set
up at a moderate pace on a smooth road, downhill if you can manage it
and when you are tracking straight and true put a tiny bit of forward
pressure on the right handlebar. Make a mental note of the direction
your bike moves. Be aware that you have just "steered" left.

Fix this in your mind and we won't be picking you out of the radiator
of some big truck or off the hood ornament of a car some day.

I have ridden a motorcycle for miles on the 4" white stripe on the
edge of the hwy without ever coming off. On the other hand, to be
fair, I must mention that I had an enduro motor bike that was so
unstable that the only way to avoid an obstacle was to try to hit it.
That thing NEVER went where it was pointed.

Jerry (ex kamikasi horse, bike, motorcycle, Porsche 361C driver)
Rhodes.

PS Most of my broken bones were from going a$$ over tea kettle OFF
road.

[MLB]

(Jerry Rhodes) wrote in
om:

> The phrase "strayed waaay over into the opposing traffic lane" brings
> to mind the fact that if this poor guy that GeoB is talking about was
> still upright when he got smacked he had not used up all of his
> options.
>
> I would guess that he found himself in a "crisis situation" and
> started to "steer" away from impending doom and only made the
> situation worse. All of this might be moot since he might have been
> going so fast that increasing the lean in order to tighten the turn,
> he might have gone down and crossed the roadway on his side and gotten
> killed anyway.
>
> Most of us learned to ride 2 wheelers as kids. We weren't interested
> in the "meaning of life" we were interested in riding our bikes.
> Eventually we got very good at riding without having a clue as to why.
>
> Without getting into such things as centrifugal force or precession I
> will try to explain a bit of the philosophy of two wheeler operation.
>
> 1) In order to turn any two wheeler you must first initiate a bank or
> lean in the direction of the desired turn. This bank or lean can be
> initiated in various ways. The most common being:
>
> A) "Body english" or physically leaning or shifting body weight to the
> inside of the desired turn. The bigger the mass of the bike the less
> effective this
> is.
>
> B) Moving the wheel contact point out from under the center of mass of
> the bike and rider causing the vehicle and rider to unbalance and
> start to lean or bank in the opposite direction.
>
> Since on most bents we are just large bags of water fixed to the seat
> we can't use much "body english" so we must rely on the contact patch
> for control.
>
> If you want to turn right you MUST "steer" left to initiate the
> required bank or lean to the right.
>
> At low speed this may appear to the instinctive rider as a wobble. The
> instinct to steer to the right immediately causes the bike to fall to
> the left that is corrected by an instinctive jerk of the bars to the
> left which then flops the rider in the proper direction where he/she
> now can "steer " in the desired direction.
>
> The real problems arise when, at higher speeds and in crisis
> situations, the instinctive rider suddenly starts to THINK and
> suppresses all that he/she has absorbed from years of instinctive
> riding. Frantically steering away from impending doom only causes the
> machine to seem to "misbehave". Not so, the machine is only doing
> what the rider is telling it to do.
>
> Try this the next time you are out on the bike or the Gold Wing. Set
> up at a moderate pace on a smooth road, downhill if you can manage it
> and when you are tracking straight and true put a tiny bit of forward
> pressure on the right handlebar. Make a mental note of the direction
> your bike moves. Be aware that you have just "steered" left.
>
> Fix this in your mind and we won't be picking you out of the radiator
> of some big truck or off the hood ornament of a car some day.
>
> I have ridden a motorcycle for miles on the 4" white stripe on the
> edge of the hwy without ever coming off. On the other hand, to be
> fair, I must mention that I had an enduro motor bike that was so
> unstable that the only way to avoid an obstacle was to try to hit it.
> That thing NEVER went where it was pointed.
>
> Jerry (ex kamikasi horse, bike, motorcycle, Porsche 361C driver)
> Rhodes.
>
> PS Most of my broken bones were from going a$$ over tea kettle OFF
> road.
>

It's called countersteering and while it is of course the best way to
steer it's fair to say that MOST motorcyclists will never even HEAR of
it, much less do it. Takes a lot of practice to make it a habit, and it
really is only efficient at high speeds.
PS - WHY would you ride for miles on the notoriously slippery painted
line?????
I grew up riding dirt and still miss it. Had a 96 XR600 that I made
street legal, what a blast. But I had to haul it 3 hours into Michigan
to have any decent riding :(

[baronn1]

Likewise to my source of injuries. Flash forward a few years to when I
adopted my dog. I stood teetering at the desk at the SPCA. Should I do
this, or shouldn't I ? I hung on that decision for just a second, but it
seemed an eternity. I did take him home, and named him...Endo!

"Jerry Rhodes" > wrote in message
om...
> The phrase "strayed waaay over into the opposing traffic lane" brings
> to mind the fact that if this poor guy that GeoB is talking about was
> still upright when he got smacked he had not used up all of his
> options.
>
> I would guess that he found himself in a "crisis situation" and
> started to "steer" away from impending doom and only made the
> situation worse. All of this might be moot since he might have been
> going so fast that increasing the lean in order to tighten the turn,
> he might have gone down and crossed the roadway on his side and gotten
> killed anyway.
>
> Most of us learned to ride 2 wheelers as kids. We weren't interested
> in the "meaning of life" we were interested in riding our bikes.
> Eventually we got very good at riding without having a clue as to why.
>
> Without getting into such things as centrifugal force or precession I
> will try to explain a bit of the philosophy of two wheeler operation.
>
> 1) In order to turn any two wheeler you must first initiate a bank or
> lean in the direction of the desired turn. This bank or lean can be
> initiated in various ways. The most common being:
>
> A) "Body english" or physically leaning or shifting body weight to the
> inside of the desired turn. The bigger the mass of the bike the less
> effective this
> is.
>
> B) Moving the wheel contact point out from under the center of mass of
> the bike and rider causing the vehicle and rider to unbalance and
> start to lean or bank in the opposite direction.
>
> Since on most bents we are just large bags of water fixed to the seat
> we can't use much "body english" so we must rely on the contact patch
> for control.
>
> If you want to turn right you MUST "steer" left to initiate the
> required bank or lean to the right.
>
> At low speed this may appear to the instinctive rider as a wobble. The
> instinct to steer to the right immediately causes the bike to fall to
> the left that is corrected by an instinctive jerk of the bars to the
> left which then flops the rider in the proper direction where he/she
> now can "steer " in the desired direction.
>
> The real problems arise when, at higher speeds and in crisis
> situations, the instinctive rider suddenly starts to THINK and
> suppresses all that he/she has absorbed from years of instinctive
> riding. Frantically steering away from impending doom only causes the
> machine to seem to "misbehave". Not so, the machine is only doing
> what the rider is telling it to do.
>
> Try this the next time you are out on the bike or the Gold Wing. Set
> up at a moderate pace on a smooth road, downhill if you can manage it
> and when you are tracking straight and true put a tiny bit of forward
> pressure on the right handlebar. Make a mental note of the direction
> your bike moves. Be aware that you have just "steered" left.
>
> Fix this in your mind and we won't be picking you out of the radiator
> of some big truck or off the hood ornament of a car some day.
>
> I have ridden a motorcycle for miles on the 4" white stripe on the
> edge of the hwy without ever coming off. On the other hand, to be
> fair, I must mention that I had an enduro motor bike that was so
> unstable that the only way to avoid an obstacle was to try to hit it.
> That thing NEVER went where it was pointed.
>
> Jerry (ex kamikasi horse, bike, motorcycle, Porsche 361C driver)
> Rhodes.
>
> PS Most of my broken bones were from going a$$ over tea kettle OFF
> road.

[Fraggle]

MLB > wrote in message >...
<snip>

> PS - WHY would you ride for miles on the notoriously slippery painted
> line?????

Lower rolling resistance?

Fragg

[MLB]

(Fraggle) wrote in
om:

> MLB > wrote in message
> >... <snip>
>
>> PS - WHY would you ride for miles on the notoriously slippery painted
>> line?????
>
> Lower rolling resistance?
>
> Fragg
>

ha :)
I only commented because he was talking a dual sport (enduro) with even
MORE notoriously slippery semi-knobby tires.

[Jerry Rhodes]

MLB > wrote in message

> It's called countersteering and while it is of course the best way to
> steer it's fair to say that MOST motorcyclists will never even HEAR of
> it, much less do it.

That lack of awareness of basic physics is what results in so many
dead neophite "two wheeler" operators.

> Takes a lot of practice to make it a habit.

Actually it takes a lot of THINKING on the part of the rider to
cultivate the HABIT to ignore his/her "automobile induced instincts"
of driving his/her bike like a car. A fatal flaw.

>and it really is only efficient at high speeds.

Actually, it is the ONLY way you can change direction quickly on a two
wheeled vehicle that depends on balance to stay up right. Even at low
speed the same principle applies. It is an immutable law of cycling.

I had an interesting and eye opening experience on an EZ-3. We had
just assembled it out of the crate and I jumped on for a first spin.
It's a bicycle, Right??. NOT!!!!! I promptly tried to control it
like I control my EZ-1 EC Lite and promptly shot off into the grass.
I had to surpress my bike habits and drive it like would a car. I was
never really comfortable riding it so I turned it over to the proud
new owner.

> PS - WHY would you ride for miles on the notoriously slippery painted
> line?????

Boredom and curiosity. Where I grew up, the road went straight for
miles on end and it hardly ever rained so the white line was just a
white line. I was finally able to ride my Suzuki the length of 40' of
2X4 (layed sideways) using what I had learned on the white line.

I personally knew 8 persons that rode straight into an object because
they didn't understand the basic physics of 2 wheeled control. Some
died, including my baby brother, (who, by the way, "knew everything"),
some were maimed and the ones who survived told me things like, "I
started toward the edge of the road and the bike took control and I
couldn't make it turn and I went through the fence".

I really don't have many miles on the motorcycles, maybe 300 or 400
thousand. Starting with a Safety Cycle, Cushman Scooter, Vespa,
Triumph Tiger Cub, Triumph T110, Aeromachi 500 cc single, Suzuki 250
street bike, Suzuki 250 dirt bike, Honda Trail 90.

And then there were the bicycles..................What a life!!!!!!

Ordinary non-cycling folks would have to live several lifetimes to
have as much fun as I have had.

Jerry

[Michael Devenis]

Perhaps the dirt crowd is unfamiliar with countersteering, but the
performance community is well aquainted with the concept. Re. Keith
Codes books and numerous articles in the enthusiast press on both
sides of the Atlantic.
It is very intuitive if you think of the concept as: push right to
go right. In other words, push the handlebar on the side you wish to
turn towards. I have been riding motorcycles since 1976 and this has
saved me more than once in a "panic" situation, although it usually
happens so fast that the panic sets in afterwards.
One other thing to think about is "target fixation", the tendancy to
go where we are looking.....try not to fixate on the obstacle, but on
the clear path to safety. I practice this on my P-38 by trying to
dodge pebbles and other things on the road. If I stare at the rock,
trying to avoid it, I invariably hit it, but if I look at the space
between the stones I usually get through them.

[MLB]

(Michael Devenis) wrote in
om:

> Perhaps the dirt crowd is unfamiliar with countersteering, but the
> performance community is well aquainted with the concept. Re. Keith
> Codes books and numerous articles in the enthusiast press on both
> sides of the Atlantic.
> It is very intuitive if you think of the concept as: push right to
> go right. In other words, push the handlebar on the side you wish to
> turn towards. I have been riding motorcycles since 1976 and this has
> saved me more than once in a "panic" situation, although it usually
> happens so fast that the panic sets in afterwards.
> One other thing to think about is "target fixation", the tendancy to
> go where we are looking.....try not to fixate on the obstacle, but on
> the clear path to safety. I practice this on my P-38 by trying to
> dodge pebbles and other things on the road. If I stare at the rock,
> trying to avoid it, I invariably hit it, but if I look at the space
> between the stones I usually get through them.
>

The dirt crowd learns VERY quickly to look where you want to go. Off road
that's an every 100 yard occurance! Or they crash. ALLOT.
I bet you not 10% of street bikers have even HEARD of countersteering and
not 1% actually uses it. When I learned about it 20+ years ago I made a
point of asking other riders. Next to nobody knew about it and most thought
I was nuts when I explained it. I worked for the county at the time and
filled up with gas where the police did. Not even the cop bikers knew about
it!
The enthusiast press reaches a TINY portion of riders. Think recumbent vs
uprights.:)

[MLB]

(Jerry Rhodes) wrote in
om:

> MLB > wrote in message
>
>> It's called countersteering and while it is of course the best way
>> to steer it's fair to say that MOST motorcyclists will never even
>> HEAR of it, much less do it.
>
> That lack of awareness of basic physics is what results in so many
> dead neophite "two wheeler" operators.

Agreed. Though i think the lock the brakes and slide into the obsticle
kills more.

>
>> Takes a lot of practice to make it a habit.
>
> Actually it takes a lot of THINKING on the part of the rider to
> cultivate the HABIT to ignore his/her "automobile induced instincts"
> of driving his/her bike like a car. A fatal flaw.
>
>>and it really is only efficient at high speeds.
>
> Actually, it is the ONLY way you can change direction quickly on a two
> wheeled vehicle that depends on balance to stay up right. Even at low
> speed the same principle applies. It is an immutable law of cycling.

here we disagree. At low speeds I think countersteering is slower. The
advantage comes in at speed where the pendulum effect is pronounced. At
low speeds there is no "inertia"(?wrong word?) to overcome like at
speed. You CAN turn the bars into the turn and get immediate response.
I'm talking LOW speed. Also dirt bikes are so much lighter that the
effort to keel them over is much less, as is the effects of whatever the
force is that wants to keep you going straight.

>
> I had an interesting and eye opening experience on an EZ-3. We had
> just assembled it out of the crate and I jumped on for a first spin.
> It's a bicycle, Right??. NOT!!!!! I promptly tried to control it
> like I control my EZ-1 EC Lite and promptly shot off into the grass.
> I had to surpress my bike habits and drive it like would a car. I was
> never really comfortable riding it so I turned it over to the proud
> new owner.
>
>> PS - WHY would you ride for miles on the notoriously slippery painted
>> line?????
>
> Boredom and curiosity. Where I grew up, the road went straight for
> miles on end and it hardly ever rained so the white line was just a
> white line. I was finally able to ride my Suzuki the length of 40' of
> 2X4 (layed sideways) using what I had learned on the white line.

that's good. I went to a couple of trials events 30 years ago. AMAZING
what those guys could do with a bike.
>
> I personally knew 8 persons that rode straight into an object because
> they didn't understand the basic physics of 2 wheeled control. Some
> died, including my baby brother, (who, by the way, "knew everything"),
> some were maimed and the ones who survived told me things like, "I
> started toward the edge of the road and the bike took control and I
> couldn't make it turn and I went through the fence".

The panic sets in and they jam the brakes and in they go. so sorry about
your bro :( Dang, that's a lot of known crashers.
>
> I really don't have many miles on the motorcycles, maybe 300 or 400
> thousand. Starting with a Safety Cycle, Cushman Scooter, Vespa,
> Triumph Tiger Cub, Triumph T110, Aeromachi 500 cc single, Suzuki 250
> street bike, Suzuki 250 dirt bike, Honda Trail 90.
>
> And then there were the bicycles..................What a life!!!!!!
>
> Ordinary non-cycling folks would have to live several lifetimes to
> have as much fun as I have had.
>
> Jerry

Honda Ct70 at age 8. XR75. XL100. XL125. Kawasaki 250. Xl250. CT400F.
Kaw GPZ 550. Shadow 700. NT650GT. XR600. 28 years of street riding. No
crashes. Agreed on the fun factor. But I'll no longer ride (street).
OTHER people are just too dang crazy these days.

[GeoB]

> this poor guy that GeoB is talking about was
> still upright when he got smacked

I gave that impression, but later news stories indicated that he was
down on the pavement. I suppose he was sliding, he had just come off.

> B) Moving the wheel contact point out from under the center of mass of
> the bike and rider causing the vehicle and rider to unbalance and
> start to lean or bank in the opposite direction.

I know this is how I effortlessly turn 600-700 lb motorcycles.

> A) "Body english" or physically leaning or shifting body weight to the
> inside of the desired turn. The bigger the mass of the bike the less
> effective this is.

I was thinking about this today as I whizzed around a corner. I
noticed I tilted my head to the right, then once the bike was leaning
to the right, I steered to the right around the corner. I may have
put a tiny bit of turn on the handle bar but I didn't notice it.

[Mark Leuck]

"GeoB" > wrote in message
om...
>
> I was thinking about this today as I whizzed around a corner. I
> noticed I tilted my head to the right, then once the bike was leaning
> to the right, I steered to the right around the corner. I may have
> put a tiny bit of turn on the handle bar but I didn't notice it.

Just curious but when going into a turn where do you look? While riding
motorcycles I was taught to look as far into the turn as possible and you
will naturally take the turn properly, haven't figured out if that works on
bents yet but I'd think it should

[GeoB]

> Just curious but when going into a turn where do you look?

Think I look at various distances. I am more concerned about lil
pebbles and stuff on a bicycle and may tend to study the road surface
more than while on a motorcycle. I am sure I also take in the big
picture because I always am aware of what is coming up. Guess I'll
hafta pay attention, and notice where I am looking.

> While riding motorcycles I was taught to look as
> far into the turn as possible and you will naturally
> take the turn properly

I agree with this; it has been my experience. I am able to
comfortably go faster on curvy roads this way. May be the same issue
as off-road motorcycle riding; when avoiding an object (rock, root,
tree, etc) look beyond the object. Pick a line and follow it, don't
look at the hazard again. You can see it OK with yer peripherial
vision. When 'froading in my 4x4 I judge the distance between rocks
or trees er sumthin that I have to pass between, while I am still a
ways back. Even if it is a squeeker I can zip through cause I don't
second-guess my original estimate. Getting closer doesn't make this
estimate easier or better. I look through and beyond the hazard and
zip right through. Oh, if it really were 1/4" on each side I'd poke
along, but gimme a few inches and I'm gone.

I'm sure Fab would do it better than I, I have only been doing this
for ~42 years now.

[GeoB]

> Just curious but when going into a turn where do you look?

Think I look at various distances. I am more concerned about lil
pebbles and stuff on a bicycle and may tend to study the road surface
more than while on a motorcycle. I am sure I also take in the big
picture because I always am aware of what is coming up. Guess I'll
hafta pay attention, and notice where I am looking.

> While riding motorcycles I was taught to look as
> far into the turn as possible and you will naturally
> take the turn properly

I agree with this; it has been my experience. I am able to
comfortably go faster on curvy roads this way. May be the same issue
as off-road motorcycle riding; when avoiding an object (rock, root,
tree, etc) look beyond the object. Pick a line and follow it, don't
look at the hazard again. You can see it OK with yer peripherial
vision. When 'froading in my 4x4 I judge the distance between rocks
or trees er sumthin that I have to pass between, while I am still a
ways back. Even if it is a squeeker I can zip through cause I don't
second-guess my original estimate. Getting closer doesn't make this
estimate easier or better. I look through and beyond the hazard and
zip right through. Oh, if it really were 1/4" on each side I'd poke
along, but gimme a few inches and I'm gone.

I'm sure Fab would do it better than I, I have only been doing this
for ~42 years now.