PDA

View Full Version : Gold Rush (or Ti Rush) v. Bacchetta Aero


Andy
September 24th 03, 12:42 AM
I seem to remember one or two participant having both a Gold Rush (or Ti
Rush) and Aero. I would like to hear how the bikes compare.

Andy

EZ Biker :-\)
September 24th 03, 04:45 AM
Hello Andy, I'm one of THOSE that has both a GRR Ti and Aero. (Owned a
Rotator Pursuit Ti too) Both are wonderful bikes and cater to similar
philosophies, pertaining to start off speed, stability, over all speed and
climbing. My Aero seems to have a quicker ability to get up to speed than my
GRR Ti and it (Aero) seems to be a better climber on at least the mo-hills
down here in South Florida. Of course my Aero is about 22.5 lbs vs. my GRR
Ti that's 32 lbs w/ fairing and rear aero bag. Both offer stability at
speed, with the Aero probably a tad better, due to the same wheel size.
(IMHO) In head winds, it's clearly NO CONTEST! The Aero knifes through the
wind, while the Faired GRR Ti, is significantly taxed and slower, due to the
wind resistance hitting the fairing. (And all these years I thought a
fairing was suppose to make you more aerodynamically fluid flow through head
winds. NOT TRUE, in my personal experience) It's like a large hand, pressing
on your fairing, holding you back. A body sock might make a difference; (OK
Thomas Sherman, are you HAPPY, now that I've admitted that?) but I've never
tried one. Again in my personal opinion, I believe having your body in a
aero position, makes for a MORE efficient speed; aero dynamically speaking,
anyway. The Aero is a lot simpler and quicker to clean up than the GRR Ti, I
guess due to the mono tube vs. a lot of tubing (And Fairing) on the GRR Ti.
My average (Poking around) speeds on the GRR Ti were about 17 - 18 mph,
while on the Aero it's EASILY 20 - 23+ mph. (The Aero just doesn't like to
be ridden SLOW) Although this sounds like I'm completely leaning for the
Aero, I'm still not confidently comfortable with as much recline as I'm in.
You really do give your complete body to the Bacchetta bikes. The ONE thing
that is HELPING me gain MORE confidence, as I continue to put miles on my
Aero, is the ability to be able to place both your feet squarely on the
ground. (A big selling point for Easy Racer Bikes) This is something you can
do on all Bacchetta bikes. I honestly prefer my Aero over my GRR Ti, for the
sheer less weight factor, better speed (And being able to maintain it) not
having to contend with a bulky (Not really aero) fairing, different wheel
sizes or tail heavy (Weighty) beach chair syndrome. Mind you, all that I've
spoken is clearly PERSONAL EXPERIENCE and riding preference. Others
experiences may be totally different. I still plan on keeping and enjoying
my GRR Ti, BUT I may take a test ride on a Giro soon... :-0 for alternative
training rides.
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Aero & GRR Ti Pilot)



"Andy" > wrote in message
...
> I seem to remember one or two participant having both a Gold Rush (or Ti
> Rush) and Aero. I would like to hear how the bikes compare.
>
> Andy
>
>

Robert Siegel
September 24th 03, 12:04 PM
Rarely in my experience does a two recumbent owner ride his/her two
different bikes on an equal time basis.
Long term, only one wins out and gets ridden.

Sorry EZ, I told you so ....
-))

Gator Bob Siegel

"EZ Biker :-)" > wrote

> Hello Andy, I'm one of THOSE that has both a GRR Ti and Aero. (Owned a
> Rotator Pursuit Ti too) Both are wonderful bikes

.....I honestly prefer my Aero over my GRR Ti, for the
> sheer less weight factor, better speed >

john riley
September 24th 03, 02:28 PM
Maybe this is what you meant, but to clarify, the issue is frontal
area. A fairing can help you deal with frontal area, but it doesn't
decrease it. I think in the end, the Aero has less frontal area than
the GRR TI and that is why it feels better in the headwinds.

john riley 1 at rogers dot com

"EZ Biker :-\)" > wrote in message news:<Lr8cb.559159$YN5.383289@sccrnsc01>...
[...]
> (IMHO) In head winds, it's clearly NO CONTEST! The Aero knifes through the
> wind, while the Faired GRR Ti, is significantly taxed and slower, due to the
> wind resistance hitting the fairing. (And all these years I thought a
> fairing was suppose to make you more aerodynamically fluid flow through head
> winds. NOT TRUE, in my personal experience) It's like a large hand, pressing
> on your fairing, holding you back. A body sock might make a difference; (OK
> Thomas Sherman, are you HAPPY, now that I've admitted that?) but I've never
> tried one. Again in my personal opinion, I believe having your body in a
> aero position, makes for a MORE efficient speed; aero dynamically speaking,
> anyway. [...]

EZ Biker :-\)
September 24th 03, 04:44 PM
THANKS JOHN! YEP, that's what I meant. Since I've been riding my Aero, I've
fallen out of Love for a fairing. I like the just a bike and me feeling.
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Aero & GRR Ti Pilot)


"john riley" > wrote in message
om...
> Maybe this is what you meant, but to clarify, the issue is frontal
> area. A fairing can help you deal with frontal area, but it doesn't
> decrease it. I think in the end, the Aero has less frontal area than
> the GRR TI and that is why it feels better in the headwinds.

Mike
September 25th 03, 01:06 AM
"EZ Biker :-\)" > wrote in message news:<Lr8cb.559159$YN5.383289@sccrnsc01>...

> (IMHO) In head winds, it's clearly NO CONTEST! The Aero knifes through the
> wind, while the Faired GRR Ti, is significantly taxed and slower, due to the
> wind resistance hitting the fairing. (And all these years I thought a
> fairing was suppose to make you more aerodynamically fluid flow through head
> winds. NOT TRUE, in my personal experience) It's like a large hand, pressing
> on your fairing, holding you back. A body sock might make a difference; > >
> >

EZ, are you sure the fairing isn't on backwards!! Just kidding. Good
luck with the aero. But I'm wondering why everyone is making such a
fuss over the Bacchetta bikes. It seems to me that the Barcroft bikes
appear to be just as good a design if not better. I don't ride either
one so I quess shouldn't comment. Anyone care to comment?

Mike

Jude T. McGloin
September 25th 03, 02:00 AM
Mike,
As EZ knows I had one of the first production Stradas and my AERO was
one of the first also. I had in the past experimented with fairing vrs no
fairing and it varied from bike to bike.
Why all the interest in the Bacchettas? Their different and brought
to you by a designer that had a hand in the V-REX and the Barcroft designs.
Having experience with both I will say that a properly set up Strada or
Corsa out performs (speed) either of these fine bents. However, I am
comparing different apples due to the front wheel difference. Comparing a
Giro to a V-REX or Barcroft Dakota is a fair comparison. IMO the Giro is a
superior ride due to its longer than most SWB wheelbase. Its rock solid at
40+ mph downhills. I installed a Pantour on my V-REX to smooth out the
jitters on fast downhills.
To date the highest downhill speed I have attained on the AERO is 44.4
MPH and it, like the Giro rock solid.
IMO the key to the Bacchetta is its wheelbase, additionally on the
highracers its the aerodynamic advantage of the high BB among other things.
The AERO when properly set up presents a very small profile to the wind thus
the knife feel that EZ espouches.
Post Isabel ride was 55 mile Saturday, not all that much debris to
dodge.

--
Jude....///Bacchetta AERO
St. Michaels and Tilghman Island.. Maryland
Wheel Doctor Cycle and Sports, Inc
1-800-586-6645
"Mike" > wrote in message
om...
> "EZ Biker :-\)" > wrote in message
news:<Lr8cb.559159$YN5.383289@sccrnsc01>...
>
> > (IMHO) In head winds, it's clearly NO CONTEST! The Aero knifes through
the
> > wind, while the Faired GRR Ti, is significantly taxed and slower, due to
the
> > wind resistance hitting the fairing. (And all these years I thought a
> > fairing was suppose to make you more aerodynamically fluid flow through
head
> > winds. NOT TRUE, in my personal experience) It's like a large hand,
pressing
> > on your fairing, holding you back. A body sock might make a difference;
> >
> > >
>
> EZ, are you sure the fairing isn't on backwards!! Just kidding. Good
> luck with the aero. But I'm wondering why everyone is making such a
> fuss over the Bacchetta bikes. It seems to me that the Barcroft bikes
> appear to be just as good a design if not better. I don't ride either
> one so I quess shouldn't comment. Anyone care to comment?
>
> Mike

Andy
September 25th 03, 05:36 AM
Gator Bob,

Did you have the same experience with the Ti Rush and the Aero as EZ?

Andy

"Robert Siegel" > wrote in message
...
> Rarely in my experience does a two recumbent owner ride his/her two
> different bikes on an equal time basis.
> Long term, only one wins out and gets ridden.
>
> Sorry EZ, I told you so ....
> -))
>
> Gator Bob Siegel
>
> "EZ Biker :-)" > wrote
>
> > Hello Andy, I'm one of THOSE that has both a GRR Ti and Aero. (Owned a
> > Rotator Pursuit Ti too) Both are wonderful bikes
>
> ....I honestly prefer my Aero over my GRR Ti, for the
> > sheer less weight factor, better speed >
>
>

Mike
September 25th 03, 09:59 AM
"Jude T. McGloin" > wrote in message >...
> Mike,
> As EZ knows I had one of the first production Stradas and my AERO was
> one of the first also. I had in the past experimented with fairing vrs no
> fairing and it varied from bike to bike.
> Why all the interest in the Bacchettas? Their different and brought
> to you by a designer that had a hand in the V-REX and the Barcroft designs.
> Having experience with both I will say that a properly set up Strada or
> Corsa out performs (speed) either of these fine bents. However, I am
> comparing different apples due to the front wheel difference. Comparing a
> Giro to a V-REX or Barcroft Dakota is a fair comparison. IMO the Giro is a
> superior ride due to its longer than most SWB wheelbase. Its rock solid at
> 40+ mph downhills. I installed a Pantour on my V-REX to smooth out the
> jitters on fast downhills.
> To date the highest downhill speed I have attained on the AERO is 44.4
> MPH and it, like the Giro rock solid.IMO the key to the Bacchetta is its wheelbase,

Jude, the Barcroft Virginia GT has a 48 inch wheelbase which is an
inch longer than the Aero.

> additionally on the
> highracers its the aerodynamic advantage of the high BB among other things.
> The AERO when properly set up presents a very small profile to the wind thus
> the knife feel that EZ espouches.

I would have thought that the smaller wheel on the Barcroft would have
make it a little more aerodynamic, but maybe not.


> Jude....///Bacchetta AERO
> St. Michaels and Tilghman Island.. Maryland
> Wheel Doctor Cycle and Sports, Inc
> 1-800-586-6645
Mike

Jude T. McGloin
September 25th 03, 01:15 PM
I thought they were close. You were paying attention. Truth be known the
AERO has more of a 46" WB than a 47".

If I remember right, which is sometimes suspect. Rich Pinto's
experements indicate that the larger thinner wheel is more aerodynamic.

I hate to get caught up in all this because it causes me to forget that
its the motor. I'm a reasonably fit 54 yr old and I'm down to my desired
weight of 170 lbs. From 188 the beginning of the year. However, I don't have
near the miles in nor the training I have had in pas years.

Recumbent selection is a hard chore and as a retailer of recumbents I
can say that Bacchetta's have been hot, even for first timers. I ride an
Aero, However, if somthing new and hot appears on the horizion I will get
one. I have given some thought to a LowRacer possibly a Baron or Jester.
From a seeing and being seen point of reference....my internal jury is still
out.
You don't hear much about the P-38 which IMO is a damm fast SWB.
Properly set up and viewed from behind at AOA (angle of attack) of the wind
all you can see is the seat back, quite aerodynamic.


--
Jude....///Bacchetta AERO
St. Michaels and Tilghman Island.. Maryland
Wheel Doctor Cycle and Sports, Inc
1-800-586-6645
"Mike" > wrote in message
om...
> "Jude T. McGloin" > wrote in message
>...
> > Mike,
> > As EZ knows I had one of the first production Stradas and my AERO
was
> > one of the first also. I had in the past experimented with fairing vrs
no
> > fairing and it varied from bike to bike.
> > Why all the interest in the Bacchettas? Their different and
brought
> > to you by a designer that had a hand in the V-REX and the Barcroft
designs.
> > Having experience with both I will say that a properly set up Strada or
> > Corsa out performs (speed) either of these fine bents. However, I am
> > comparing different apples due to the front wheel difference. Comparing
a
> > Giro to a V-REX or Barcroft Dakota is a fair comparison. IMO the Giro is
a
> > superior ride due to its longer than most SWB wheelbase. Its rock solid
at
> > 40+ mph downhills. I installed a Pantour on my V-REX to smooth out the
> > jitters on fast downhills.
> > To date the highest downhill speed I have attained on the AERO is
44.4
> > MPH and it, like the Giro rock solid.IMO the key to the Bacchetta is its
wheelbase,
>
> Jude, the Barcroft Virginia GT has a 48 inch wheelbase which is an
> inch longer than the Aero.
>
> > additionally on the
> > highracers its the aerodynamic advantage of the high BB among other
things.
> > The AERO when properly set up presents a very small profile to the wind
thus
> > the knife feel that EZ espouches.
>
> I would have thought that the smaller wheel on the Barcroft would have
> make it a little more aerodynamic, but maybe not.
>
>
> > Jude....///Bacchetta AERO
> > St. Michaels and Tilghman Island.. Maryland
> > Wheel Doctor Cycle and Sports, Inc
> > 1-800-586-6645
> Mike

EZ Biker :-\)
September 25th 03, 01:23 PM
Thanks Jude! Just what I was going to say... <Grin> I think the appeal of
Bacchetta's is that they truly are an enthusiast kind of bike. Some how,
looking geeky in that SWB position doesn't really mean a lot; in that I may
look geekey going down the road, but I'm MOVING at a pretty fair geeky clip.
Plus you do earn some respect and perhaps Aw from DFer's, in that they just
can't seem to perceive ever trying to ride in THAT kind of position, keeping
a bike like that up and going reasonable FAST. The Bacchetta's allow you to
give all that you have, in a comfortable way and still give a rider the
feeling of being on a performance diamond frame bike. The Bacchetta line
also offers you a choice of what kind of cycling you want to do. Giro's for
casual type of cycling (Although Shari Bernhard KICKS SOME SERIOUS AS...
with hers) Strada for more moderate type of cycling, Corsa, more performance
type of cycling, being just a tick under the Aero speed wise, but a lot less
$$$ and the Aero, Take No Prisoners; an all out thoroughbred high race /
performance kind of bike.
EZ (Don't like faired bikes anymore) Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Aero
Pilot)






"Jude T. McGloin" > wrote in message
...
> Mike,
> As EZ knows I had one of the first production Stradas and my AERO
was
> one of the first also. I had in the past experimented with fairing vrs no
> fairing and it varied from bike to bike.
> Why all the interest in the Bacchettas? Their different and
brought
> to you by a designer that had a hand in the V-REX and the Barcroft
designs.
> Having experience with both I will say that a properly set up Strada or
> Corsa out performs (speed) either of these fine bents. However, I am
> comparing different apples due to the front wheel difference. Comparing a
> Giro to a V-REX or Barcroft Dakota is a fair comparison. IMO the Giro is a
> superior ride due to its longer than most SWB wheelbase. Its rock solid at
> 40+ mph downhills. I installed a Pantour on my V-REX to smooth out the
> jitters on fast downhills.
> To date the highest downhill speed I have attained on the AERO is
44.4
> MPH and it, like the Giro rock solid.
> IMO the key to the Bacchetta is its wheelbase, additionally on the
> highracers its the aerodynamic advantage of the high BB among other
things.
> The AERO when properly set up presents a very small profile to the wind
thus
> the knife feel that EZ espouches.
> Post Isabel ride was 55 mile Saturday, not all that much debris to
> dodge.
>
> --
> Jude....///Bacchetta AERO
> St. Michaels and Tilghman Island.. Maryland
> Wheel Doctor Cycle and Sports, Inc
> 1-800-586-6645
> "Mike" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "EZ Biker :-\)" > wrote in message
> news:<Lr8cb.559159$YN5.383289@sccrnsc01>...
> >
> > > (IMHO) In head winds, it's clearly NO CONTEST! The Aero knifes through
> the
> > > wind, while the Faired GRR Ti, is significantly taxed and slower, due
to
> the
> > > wind resistance hitting the fairing. (And all these years I thought a
> > > fairing was suppose to make you more aerodynamically fluid flow
through
> head
> > > winds. NOT TRUE, in my personal experience) It's like a large hand,
> pressing
> > > on your fairing, holding you back. A body sock might make a
difference;
> > >
> > > >
> >
> > EZ, are you sure the fairing isn't on backwards!! Just kidding. Good
> > luck with the aero. But I'm wondering why everyone is making such a
> > fuss over the Bacchetta bikes. It seems to me that the Barcroft bikes
> > appear to be just as good a design if not better. I don't ride either
> > one so I quess shouldn't comment. Anyone care to comment?
> >
> > Mike
>
>

Robert Siegel
September 25th 03, 01:53 PM
Don't have an Aero but I had the same experience going from a P-38 Xt to a
Ti Rush.
"Andy" > wrote in message
...
> Gator Bob,
>
> Did you have the same experience with the Ti Rush and the Aero as EZ?
>
> Andy
>
> "Robert Siegel" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Rarely in my experience does a two recumbent owner ride his/her two
> > different bikes on an equal time basis.
> > Long term, only one wins out and gets ridden.
> >
> > Sorry EZ, I told you so ....
> > -))
> >
> > Gator Bob Siegel
> >
> > "EZ Biker :-)" > wrote
> >
> > > Hello Andy, I'm one of THOSE that has both a GRR Ti and Aero. (Owned a
> > > Rotator Pursuit Ti too) Both are wonderful bikes
> >
> > ....I honestly prefer my Aero over my GRR Ti, for the
> > > sheer less weight factor, better speed >
> >
> >
>
>

mike s
September 25th 03, 06:39 PM
"EZ Biker :-\)" > wrote in message news:<o7Bcb.574519$Ho3.106642@sccrnsc03>...
> Thanks Jude! Just what I was going to say... <Grin> I think the appeal of
> Bacchetta's is that they truly are an enthusiast kind of bike.

Disclaimer: My opinion only. I think Bacchettas are still in their
honeymoon phase. Concluding their second year they are still the new
kid on the block as concerns performance oriented recumbents. More
and more you see them turning up used. When they first came out the
impression was they were the panacea for all that ails you. I have
never felt comfortable on the bike. It just doesn't fit me well. On
the other hand I can't say enough good things about the Barcroft
Virginia, especially with the carbon fiber seat (I had adapted, now
the company offers them). Not only is performance based in large part
on the engine, but the desirability of the bike is also determined by
how the engine feels riding it. That's why we have so many options.
No question the high racers are fast. But they tend to be less
manuverable at slower speeds than their 26/20 cousins. I think you
could put the Volaes, Bacchettas, Barcrofts (to mention three) into a
category and whichever you picked would be a fine bicycle. My
Virginia is fast, stable, manuverable and comfortable. It provides me
the level of comfort and performance that the high racers can't
provide for me. I would take it over a high racer in a heartbeat.
Others will have a different opinion. Individual preference rules.
There is no universal solution. Upcoming might be a nice compromise,
Bacchetta's titanium 26/20 model. That tends to narrow the design gap
between the two styles. Sigh, another choice.

Mike S.
St. Louis, Mo

Barcroft Virginia
Barcroft Columbia
RANS Rocket

Andy
September 26th 03, 12:36 AM
Dear Gator Bob,

Interesting. Years ago (1997?) I bought a P-38 as I thought it would be
better than my Tour Easy. Every day for a season, I rode a different bike
until fall. By then I could not get myself to ride the P-38 any longer, I
just liked riding the TE much better. (Of course, I know someone who likes
his P-38 much better than his Gold Rush.) What was your experience changing
from the P-38 to the Ti Rush.

Andy

"Robert Siegel" > wrote in message
...
> Don't have an Aero but I had the same experience going from a P-38 Xt to a
> Ti Rush.
> "Andy" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Gator Bob,
> >
> > Did you have the same experience with the Ti Rush and the Aero as EZ?
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > "Robert Siegel" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Rarely in my experience does a two recumbent owner ride his/her two
> > > different bikes on an equal time basis.
> > > Long term, only one wins out and gets ridden.
> > >
> > > Sorry EZ, I told you so ....
> > > -))
> > >
> > > Gator Bob Siegel
> > >
> > > "EZ Biker :-)" > wrote
> > >
> > > > Hello Andy, I'm one of THOSE that has both a GRR Ti and Aero. (Owned
a
> > > > Rotator Pursuit Ti too) Both are wonderful bikes
> > >
> > > ....I honestly prefer my Aero over my GRR Ti, for the
> > > > sheer less weight factor, better speed >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Robert Siegel
September 26th 03, 01:47 AM
Same as yours ... but I still miss the P-38's speed and feeling of
lightness, especially up hills. It provided an excellent "fit" for my body.
However, I found it impossible to switch back and forth from one to the
other and concluded the GRR design was "best" for me. I still miss the P-38
though.
"Andy" > wrote in message
...
> Dear Gator Bob,
>
> Interesting. Years ago (1997?) I bought a P-38 as I thought it would be
> better than my Tour Easy. Every day for a season, I rode a different bike
> until fall. By then I could not get myself to ride the P-38 any longer,
I
> just liked riding the TE much better. (Of course, I know someone who
likes
> his P-38 much better than his Gold Rush.) What was your experience
changing
> from the P-38 to the Ti Rush.
>
> Andy
>
> "Robert Siegel" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Don't have an Aero but I had the same experience going from a P-38 Xt to
a
> > Ti Rush.
> > "Andy" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Gator Bob,
> > >
> > > Did you have the same experience with the Ti Rush and the Aero as EZ?
> > >
> > > Andy
> > >
> > > "Robert Siegel" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Rarely in my experience does a two recumbent owner ride his/her two
> > > > different bikes on an equal time basis.
> > > > Long term, only one wins out and gets ridden.
> > > >
> > > > Sorry EZ, I told you so ....
> > > > -))
> > > >
> > > > Gator Bob Siegel
> > > >
> > > > "EZ Biker :-)" > wrote
> > > >
> > > > > Hello Andy, I'm one of THOSE that has both a GRR Ti and Aero.
(Owned
> a
> > > > > Rotator Pursuit Ti too) Both are wonderful bikes
> > > >
> > > > ....I honestly prefer my Aero over my GRR Ti, for the
> > > > > sheer less weight factor, better speed >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

EZ Biker :-\)
September 26th 03, 05:35 AM
Good opinion Mike, although I'm not seeing THAT many used Bacchetta's
(Except perhaps Stradas) and haven't seen any used Aero's for sale, yet.
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Aero Pilot)

"mike s" > wrote in message
m...
> "EZ Biker :-\)" > wrote in message
news:<o7Bcb.574519$Ho3.106642@sccrnsc03>... Concluding their second year
they are still the new > kid on the block as concerns performance oriented
recumbents. More > and more you see them turning up used.

harryo
September 26th 03, 06:34 PM
"EZ Biker :-\)" > wrote in message >...
> Good opinion Mike, although I'm not seeing THAT many used Bacchetta's
> (Except perhaps Stradas) and haven't seen any used Aero's for sale, yet.
> EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Aero Pilot)
>
I agree with Mike. I have been a bit surprised about the amount of
delirium
about the Bacchetta bikes, particularly the big wheeled models, and
more particularly, the Aero After all, Bacchetta was not the first
to produce big wheeled bents. Don't misunderstand me. I think the
Bacchetta high racers are excellent bikes and I might own one myself,
in the future. Bacchetta has pushed the envelope of design and
performance and this, coupled with the reputation of the people
involved with the company, probably have a lot to do with the
Bacchetta frenzy.

Stradas do account for most of the used Bacchettas that I have seen
offered, along with a few Giros. I haven't seen any used Aeros but
when someone shells out almost $4000 for a bike, I imagine they will
keep it for a while.

Harry Jiles

PJ
September 26th 03, 10:27 PM
(harryo) wrote in message >...
> "EZ Biker :-\)" > wrote in message >...
> > Good opinion Mike, although I'm not seeing THAT many used Bacchetta's
> > (Except perhaps Stradas) and haven't seen any used Aero's for sale, yet.
> > EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Aero Pilot)
> >
> I agree with Mike. I have been a bit surprised about the amount of
> delirium
> about the Bacchetta bikes, particularly the big wheeled models, and
> more particularly, the Aero After all, Bacchetta was not the first
> to produce big wheeled bents. Don't misunderstand me. I think the
> Bacchetta high racers are excellent bikes and I might own one myself,
> in the future. Bacchetta has pushed the envelope of design and
> performance and this, coupled with the reputation of the people
> involved with the company, probably have a lot to do with the
> Bacchetta frenzy.
>
> Stradas do account for most of the used Bacchettas that I have seen
> offered, along with a few Giros. I haven't seen any used Aeros but
> when someone shells out almost $4000 for a bike, I imagine they will
> keep it for a while.
>
> Harry Jiles

I think the amount and frequency of used recumbents appearing on the
market to a great degree is a funciton of how many of them there are
out there. Initially it was very difficult to find a used Bacchetta
but because there numbers and sales are growing it is natural to see
some go back on the used market. This is not a reflection of problems
with the bike but more a reflection of their grwoing volume and
acceptance.

I also think you will also find that the reason that you are seeing
some of the Bacchettas coming on the market is because the owners are
upgrading to Aeros and I can cite several examples of that happening.
As a matter of fact if I were to sell my Strada/Corsa it would only be
to upgrade to an Aero,which I have thought about more than once.

Pat McShane

Don
September 26th 03, 10:36 PM
Please note that as a member of the Bacchetta Yahoo group, I know some
of the Stradas and Corsas (and probably some Giros) were sold to make
room and $$$$ for Aeros. Lots of Bacchetta riders were so pleased
they decided to upgrade. Not unlike TE/GRR riders selling to finance
a Ti-Rush. Don't put a lot of significance on bikes being sold. And
remember, some people are never happy and have to keep moving on.
They are also not the perfect bike for everyone so there will always
be some selling. Don

(harryo) wrote in message >...
> "EZ Biker :-\)" > wrote in message >...
> > Good opinion Mike, although I'm not seeing THAT many used Bacchetta's
> > (Except perhaps Stradas) and haven't seen any used Aero's for sale, yet.
> > EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Aero Pilot)
> >
> I agree with Mike. I have been a bit surprised about the amount of
> delirium
> about the Bacchetta bikes, particularly the big wheeled models, and
> more particularly, the Aero After all, Bacchetta was not the first
> to produce big wheeled bents. Don't misunderstand me. I think the
> Bacchetta high racers are excellent bikes and I might own one myself,
> in the future. Bacchetta has pushed the envelope of design and
> performance and this, coupled with the reputation of the people
> involved with the company, probably have a lot to do with the
> Bacchetta frenzy.
>
> Stradas do account for most of the used Bacchettas that I have seen
> offered, along with a few Giros. I haven't seen any used Aeros but
> when someone shells out almost $4000 for a bike, I imagine they will
> keep it for a while.
>
> Harry Jiles

harryo
September 27th 03, 03:36 AM
Originally posted by Pj

Agreed, I never said, nor did I imply that it was a reflection of
problems.

[I also think you will also find that the reason that you are seeing
some of the Bacchettas coming on the market is because the owners are
upgrading to Aeros and I can cite several examples of that happening. As
a matter of fact if I were to sell my Strada/Corsa it would only be to
upgrade to an Aero,which I have thought about more than once.]

I'm sure this id the case for some but it is also quite likely that some
are sold for other reasons as well.

Harry



--[i]
>--------------------------<
Posted via cyclingforums.com
http://www.cyclingforums.com

harryo
September 27th 03, 03:50 AM
Originally posted by Don Please note that as a member of the Bacchetta
Yahoo group, I know some of the Stradas and Corsas (and probably some
Giros) were sold to make room and $$$$ for Aeros. Lots of Bacchetta
riders were so pleased they decided to upgrade. Not unlike TE/GRR riders
selling to finance a Ti-Rush. Don't put a lot of significance on bikes
being sold. And remember, some people are never happy and have to keep
moving on. They are also not the perfect bike for everyone so there will
always be some selling.]

I never inferred there was any significance other than the fact that
some used Bacchettas were showing up on the marketplace. I was actually
ageeing with EZ Biker's observation that most used Bacchettas seemed to
be Stradas.

As I replied to PJ, I'm sure some Stradas are sold to move up to Aeros
but as you said yourself, some are sold for other reasons as is probably
every other brand of bike. Certainly, there have been some Bacchetta
owners that bought a Strada, perhaps a bit taken in by some of the hype,
found that it did not suit them for some reason, and consequently sold
it. Again, this will happen with any new model bent, and is no
reflection on any negatives of Bacchetta bikes.

Harry



--
>--------------------------<
Posted via cyclingforums.com
http://www.cyclingforums.com

Andy
September 27th 03, 07:59 PM
Robert,

I miss it but I could not ride it anymore. The Tour Easy was just more fun,
more comfortable and more fast.

Andy

"Robert Siegel" > wrote in message
...
> Same as yours ... but I still miss the P-38's speed and feeling of
> lightness, especially up hills. It provided an excellent "fit" for my
body.
> However, I found it impossible to switch back and forth from one to the
> other and concluded the GRR design was "best" for me. I still miss the
P-38
> though.
> "Andy" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Dear Gator Bob,
> >
> > Interesting. Years ago (1997?) I bought a P-38 as I thought it would be
> > better than my Tour Easy. Every day for a season, I rode a different
bike
> > until fall. By then I could not get myself to ride the P-38 any
longer,
> I
> > just liked riding the TE much better. (Of course, I know someone who
> likes
> > his P-38 much better than his Gold Rush.) What was your experience
> changing
> > from the P-38 to the Ti Rush.
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > "Robert Siegel" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Don't have an Aero but I had the same experience going from a P-38 Xt
to
> a
> > > Ti Rush.
> > > "Andy" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Gator Bob,
> > > >
> > > > Did you have the same experience with the Ti Rush and the Aero as
EZ?
> > > >
> > > > Andy
> > > >
> > > > "Robert Siegel" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > Rarely in my experience does a two recumbent owner ride his/her
two
> > > > > different bikes on an equal time basis.
> > > > > Long term, only one wins out and gets ridden.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sorry EZ, I told you so ....
> > > > > -))
> > > > >
> > > > > Gator Bob Siegel
> > > > >
> > > > > "EZ Biker :-)" > wrote
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hello Andy, I'm one of THOSE that has both a GRR Ti and Aero.
> (Owned
> > a
> > > > > > Rotator Pursuit Ti too) Both are wonderful bikes
> > > > >
> > > > > ....I honestly prefer my Aero over my GRR Ti, for the
> > > > > > sheer less weight factor, better speed >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Tom Sherman
September 28th 03, 01:44 AM
"EZ Biker :-)" wrote:
>
> Hello Andy, I'm one of THOSE that has both a GRR Ti and Aero. (Owned a
> Rotator Pursuit Ti too) Both are wonderful bikes and cater to similar
> philosophies, pertaining to start off speed, stability, over all speed and
> climbing. My Aero seems to have a quicker ability to get up to speed than my
> GRR Ti and it (Aero) seems to be a better climber on at least the mo-hills
> down here in South Florida. Of course my Aero is about 22.5 lbs vs. my GRR
> Ti that's 32 lbs w/ fairing and rear aero bag. Both offer stability at
> speed, with the Aero probably a tad better, due to the same wheel size.
> (IMHO) In head winds, it's clearly NO CONTEST! The Aero knifes through the
> wind, while the Faired GRR Ti, is significantly taxed and slower, due to the
> wind resistance hitting the fairing. (And all these years I thought a
> fairing was suppose to make you more aerodynamically fluid flow through head
> winds. NOT TRUE, in my personal experience) It's like a large hand, pressing
> on your fairing, holding you back. A body sock might make a difference; (OK
> Thomas Sherman, are you HAPPY, now that I've admitted that?) but I've never
> tried one....

EZ,

Saying a bodysock MIGHT make a difference is not really admitting
anything, is it? ;)

In my experience, the performance increase from putting a bodysock on a
front-faired RANS "Wavewind" was not subtle. I was even significantly
faster up small hills due to the aerodynamic advantage.

There is someone (who shall remain anonymous unless he wishes to reveal
himself) who made the mistake of buying his wife a bodysock for her GRR,
therefore making it hard for him to keep up.

Tom Sherman - Near the confluence of the Mississippi and Rock Rivers

Tom Sherman
September 28th 03, 01:50 AM
mike s wrote:
>
> "EZ Biker :-\)" > wrote in message news:<o7Bcb.574519$Ho3.106642@sccrnsc03>...
> > Thanks Jude! Just what I was going to say... <Grin> I think the appeal of
> > Bacchetta's is that they truly are an enthusiast kind of bike.
>
> Disclaimer: My opinion only. I think Bacchettas are still in their
> honeymoon phase. Concluding their second year they are still the new
> kid on the block as concerns performance oriented recumbents. More
> and more you see them turning up used. When they first came out the
> impression was they were the panacea for all that ails you. I have
> never felt comfortable on the bike. It just doesn't fit me well. On
> the other hand I can't say enough good things about the Barcroft
> Virginia, especially with the carbon fiber seat (I had adapted, now
> the company offers them). Not only is performance based in large part
> on the engine, but the desirability of the bike is also determined by
> how the engine feels riding it. That's why we have so many options.
> No question the high racers are fast. But they tend to be less
> manuverable at slower speeds than their 26/20 cousins. I think you
> could put the Volaes, Bacchettas, Barcrofts (to mention three) into a
> category and whichever you picked would be a fine bicycle. My
> Virginia is fast, stable, manuverable and comfortable. It provides me
> the level of comfort and performance that the high racers can't
> provide for me. I would take it over a high racer in a heartbeat.
> Others will have a different opinion. Individual preference rules.
> There is no universal solution. Upcoming might be a nice compromise,
> Bacchetta's titanium 26/20 model. That tends to narrow the design gap
> between the two styles. Sigh, another choice.

Mike,

What you really need is a Sunset. ;)

Tom Sherman - Near the confluence of the Mississippi and Rock Rivers

Jude T. McGloin
September 28th 03, 04:30 AM
As is normal with benters and most everyone that is heavily involved with
cycling for one reason or another......we all have our preferences. This
ranges from frame material to brake shoes. Experiences good and bad with
specific bents and components vary as much as personalities.
There are and will be varied reasons why one chooses to change bents
upgrade being one high BB intolerance or low BB intolerance for that matter.
The aforementioned being more prevalent than the latter...Some will
sacrifice some comfort for speed....some are less weight conscious. Some
love the Tweener bar some hate it, same goes for the RANS praying hamster or
USS for that matter. I had a customer who rides a Haluzak Horizon (5 years)
who took all three Bacchettas for a ride and said " I really like these
bikes..I'll be back"
Any bent can have a quirk that puts it on the sale bloc....As was said
before... its most often not an indication of mass disenchantment
--
Jude....///Bacchetta AERO
St. Michaels and Tilghman Island.. Maryland
Wheel Doctor Cycle and Sports, Inc
1-800-586-6645
"harryo" > wrote in message
...
> Originally posted by Don Please note that as a member of the Bacchetta
> Yahoo group, I know some of the Stradas and Corsas (and probably some
> Giros) were sold to make room and $$$$ for Aeros. Lots of Bacchetta
> riders were so pleased they decided to upgrade. Not unlike TE/GRR riders
> selling to finance a Ti-Rush. Don't put a lot of significance on bikes
> being sold. And remember, some people are never happy and have to keep
> moving on. They are also not the perfect bike for everyone so there will
> always be some selling.]
>
> I never inferred there was any significance other than the fact that
> some used Bacchettas were showing up on the marketplace. I was actually
> ageeing with EZ Biker's observation that most used Bacchettas seemed to
> be Stradas.
>
> As I replied to PJ, I'm sure some Stradas are sold to move up to Aeros
> but as you said yourself, some are sold for other reasons as is probably
> every other brand of bike. Certainly, there have been some Bacchetta
> owners that bought a Strada, perhaps a bit taken in by some of the hype,
> found that it did not suit them for some reason, and consequently sold
> it. Again, this will happen with any new model bent, and is no
> reflection on any negatives of Bacchetta bikes.
>
> Harry
>
>
>
> --
> >--------------------------<
> Posted via cyclingforums.com
> http://www.cyclingforums.com

EZ Biker :-\)
September 28th 03, 07:02 PM
WELL Tom, I don't need to worry about any body sock, aero bag or other
bicycle additive, now that I've moved onto my Aero. Simple design, easy to
clean and fast enough to suit my needs. Life is GOOD!
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)


"Tom Sherman" > wrote in message
...
> There is someone (who shall remain anonymous unless he wishes to reveal
> himself) who made the mistake of buying his wife a bodysock for her GRR,

Mikael Seierup
September 28th 03, 07:46 PM
"EZ Biker :-)" skrev...
> WELL Tom, I don't need to worry about any body sock, aero bag or other
> bicycle additive, now that I've moved onto my Aero. Simple design, easy to
> clean and fast enough to suit my needs. Life is GOOD!

"Ah but you would be faster with a tailfairing on it", the voice of temptation whispered. ;-)

M.

EZ Biker :-\)
September 29th 03, 01:44 AM
Maybe, but my Bacchetta bag works just fine.
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)







"Mikael Seierup" > wrote in message
...
>
> "EZ Biker :-)" skrev...
> > WELL Tom, I don't need to worry about any body sock, aero bag or other
> > bicycle additive, now that I've moved onto my Aero. Simple design, easy
to
> > clean and fast enough to suit my needs. Life is GOOD!
>
> "Ah but you would be faster with a tailfairing on it", the voice of
temptation whispered. ;-)
>
> M.

harryo
September 29th 03, 03:20 AM
"Jude T. McGloin" > wrote in message >...
> Any bent can have a quirk that puts it on the sale bloc....As was said
> before... its most often not an indication of mass disenchantment

Agreed, but owner disenchantment is one reason for selling a bike and
I would imagine some Bacchettas have been sold for this reason. The
Bacchetta frenzy is unlike anything I have seen seen in the 4 years i
have been bent and I have heard some Bacchetta owners make some
outlandish speed claims. Some have claimed that a Bacchetta instantly
made them 2-5 mph faster and some claim to routinely ride at 25-30
mph. I remember one owner who claimed he was out of shape and fat but
as soon as he bought an Aero, he was passing buffed triatheletes, on
high end DFs, when climbing hills. As we know, the anonymity of the
internet sometimes leads to some exaggerated claims and some Bacchetta
owners are not immune to this.

Some people have undoubtedly been caught up in this hype and purchased
a Bacchetta, only to find it didn't make them an instant speed demon
because of some of the other bike to rider incompatabilities that you
mentioned or the simple fact that they don't have the heart, lungs and
legs to realize the potential of the bike. Certainly some of these
owners have resold their bikes. Owner disenchantment happens for any
brand and model of bike and it would be naive to think Bacchetta bikes
would be immune to it.

Harry

EZ Biker :-\)
September 29th 03, 01:24 PM
Harry, Lance Armstrong BEGGED me to SLOW down on my Aero, as I was whipping
him silly in a recent bike event... ;-) <Grin> BUT actually you are right
on about your post. I thought I'd be faithful to my GRR Ti forever, but now
I may have a buyer for it. (Breaking my solemn oath NEVER to part with it)
It's not that I'm specifically disenchanted with my GRR Ti, but it's the
additional fairing part, that I've fallen out of Love for. I like being able
to put JUST MY BIKE in the vehicle, without having to remove any fairing or
additional parts. Plus having the bod be in an aerodynamic laid back
position, seems to work better for me, than hiding behind a HEAVY bubble.
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. Bacchetta Aero Pilot)



"harryo" > wrote in message
m...
Owner disenchantment happens for any
> brand and model of bike and it would be naive to think Bacchetta bikes
> would be immune to it.
>
> Harry

Robert Siegel
September 29th 03, 02:12 PM
I tole you so. Never say never, EZ.

I am very curious to see what Fast Freddy's Calfee-built 26 pound all-carbon
modified GRR design will be like. I love the ergonomics, comfort and
control of my Ti Rush but I too would like a lighter, faster recumbent.

I did not find the Aero "fit" comfortable for me, at least for my two test
rides. I preferred the Vision R-65 fit and feel. The Volae Team seems to
be an attractive bike especially since its components are a cut above the
competition @ a $2995 price point (all Dura-Ace).

Gator Bob

"EZ Biker :-)" > wrote in message
news:BvVdb.630352$Ho3.121340@sccrnsc03...
> Harry, Lance Armstrong BEGGED me to SLOW down on my Aero, as I was
whipping
> him silly in a recent bike event... ;-) <Grin> BUT actually you are right
> on about your post. I thought I'd be faithful to my GRR Ti forever, but
now
> I may have a buyer for it. (Breaking my solemn oath NEVER to part with it)
> It's not that I'm specifically disenchanted with my GRR Ti, but it's the
> additional fairing part, that I've fallen out of Love for. I like being
able
> to put JUST MY BIKE in the vehicle, without having to remove any fairing
or
> additional parts. Plus having the bod be in an aerodynamic laid back
> position, seems to work better for me, than hiding behind a HEAVY bubble.
> EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. Bacchetta Aero Pilot)
>
>
>
> "harryo" > wrote in message
> m...
> Owner disenchantment happens for any
> > brand and model of bike and it would be naive to think Bacchetta bikes
> > would be immune to it.
> >
> > Harry
>
>

mike s
September 29th 03, 02:26 PM
(harryo) wrote in message >...
> "Jude T. McGloin" > wrote in message >...
> > Any bent can have a quirk that puts it on the sale bloc....As was said
> > before... its most often not an indication of mass disenchantment
>
> Agreed, but owner disenchantment is one reason for selling a bike and
> I would imagine some Bacchettas have been sold for this reason. The
> Bacchetta frenzy is unlike anything I have seen seen in the 4 years i
> have been bent and I have heard some Bacchetta owners make some
> outlandish speed claims. Some have claimed that a Bacchetta instantly
> made them 2-5 mph faster and some claim to routinely ride at 25-30
> mph. I remember one owner who claimed he was out of shape and fat but
> as soon as he bought an Aero, he was passing buffed triatheletes, on
> high end DFs, when climbing hills. As we know, the anonymity of the
> internet sometimes leads to some exaggerated claims and some Bacchetta
> owners are not immune to this.
>
> Some people have undoubtedly been caught up in this hype and purchased
> a Bacchetta, only to find it didn't make them an instant speed demon
> because of some of the other bike to rider incompatabilities that you
> mentioned or the simple fact that they don't have the heart, lungs and
> legs to realize the potential of the bike. Certainly some of these
> owners have resold their bikes. Owner disenchantment happens for any
> brand and model of bike and it would be naive to think Bacchetta bikes
> would be immune to it.
>
> Harry


I agree with Harry's very well expressed opinion. I am sure that some
of the Bacchettas are resold so the owner can upgrade, and the
Bacchetta boys were very wise to produce various levels of bikes so
one could do just that. But there are also those offered by riders
who, once they got them, didn't like them. Not an insult to
Bacchetta, it happens to all manufacturers. I owned a Rotator Tiger
for 100 miles but sold because my back couldn't accomodate it. It
doesn't mean the Tiger was a bad bike, it just wasn't a universal
bike. The same with Bacchetta. But the way this bike has been touted
by its proponents, especially the instant speed enhancement, IMHO
hurts rather than helps the image, because some of the claims are
ridiculous (5 mph average gain etc.). It reminds me of the Tour de
Stooges ride earlier this year when I rode the whole route with a
friend, never more than 20 yards apart, yet he averaged almost 1 mph
faster than I. For those who like Bacchettas, or Volaes, or BikeEs,
or whatever, more power to you. Enjoy them and ride happy. But
please don't tell me that any one bike is the answer to all our needs.
It just isn't so.

Mike S.
St. Louis, Mo

Barcroft Virginia
Barcroft Columbia
RANS Rocket

EZ Biker :-\)
September 30th 03, 03:50 AM
Robert, to be HONEST, there has been a LEARNING period for me on my Aero.
Having ridden a sit-up kind bike for 5+ years, I'm not TOTALLY 100%
acclimated to my Aero as of yet. NOW I have NO Choice, as a fellow Florida
recumboer scooped up my GRR Ti today. SO, I better get up to speed on my
Aero or I'm in trouble. BUT, I can honestly say, I'm TRULY in LOVE with my
Aero and the less weight factor and no front fairing to worry with. NOW
(Again) I'm even flirting with a "Giro" as a daily riding bike, once I get
dialed in with my Aero. As I stated in an earlier post; tried a Giro this
weekend and it was PURE FUN to ride.
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. Bacchetta Aero Pilot)



"Robert Siegel" > wrote in message
...
> I tole you so. Never say never, EZ.

EZ Biker :-\)
September 30th 03, 03:59 AM
mike s, I see NO HARM in hearing about someone's "Possible" speed increase
on a different kind of bike than what they had previously been riding.
Sometimes dropping 10 lbs off a bike and adding some better aerodynamic body
positioning, CAN MAKE A REAL DIFFERENCE in performance. On my (32 lb) GRR Ti
a 51 mile ride average was about 18.6 mph., where as of lest weekend my same
51 mph average (On my Aero) was 20.1 mph. PLUS, I like and enjoy some of the
performance enhancement stories myself.
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. Bacchetta Aero Pilot)




"mike s" > wrote in message
om...
But the way this bike has been touted
> by its proponents, especially the instant speed enhancement, IMHO
> hurts rather than helps the image, because some of the claims are
> ridiculous (5 mph average gain etc.).

Tom Sherman
September 30th 03, 06:21 AM
mike s wrote:
>
> I agree with Harry's very well expressed opinion. I am sure that some
> of the Bacchettas are resold so the owner can upgrade, and the
> Bacchetta boys were very wise to produce various levels of bikes so
> one could do just that. But there are also those offered by riders
> who, once they got them, didn't like them. Not an insult to
> Bacchetta, it happens to all manufacturers. I owned a Rotator Tiger
> for 100 miles but sold because my back couldn't accomodate it. It
> doesn't mean the Tiger was a bad bike, it just wasn't a universal
> bike. The same with Bacchetta. But the way this bike has been touted
> by its proponents, especially the instant speed enhancement, IMHO
> hurts rather than helps the image, because some of the claims are
> ridiculous (5 mph average gain etc.)....

I know of one rider who gained about 5 mph in average speed with a
change in the bike he was riding - bare P-38 to F-40 faired P-38. This
is quite a radical change, and I wound not expect such a speed gain from
switching to a Bacchetta unless the previous bike was a Rebike or
something similar.

> It reminds me of the Tour de
> Stooges ride earlier this year when I rode the whole route with a
> friend, never more than 20 yards apart, yet he averaged almost 1 mph
> faster than I....

That is a lot of wobbling to increase the distance traveled by over a
whole mile. ;)

> For those who like Bacchettas, or Volaes, or BikeEs,
> or whatever, more power to you. Enjoy them and ride happy. But
> please don't tell me that any one bike is the answer to all our needs.
> It just isn't so....

This is just an excuse to purchase another HPV. :) Hint: Sunset.

Tom Sherman - Near the confluence of the Mississippi and Rock Rivers

Truestorys
September 30th 03, 01:16 PM
Tom Sherman > wrote in message >...

> I know of one rider who gained about 5 mph in average speed with a
> change in the bike he was riding - bare P-38 to F-40 faired P-38. This
> is quite a radical change, and I wound not expect such a speed gain from
> switching to a Bacchetta unless the previous bike was a Rebike or
> something similar.
>

Tom,

Here's another claim for increase speed on an Aero. The guy who
convinced me to buy an Aero rode a Rans Rocket that he loved. He had
modified it with better wheels, tires and bigger chain ring. A year
ago at the Hotter than Hell he averaged 18. This year he averaged 22.
I think maybe he gained about 3 over the Rocket and another 1 because
he now rides more and is in better shape. But all four miles an hour
are because of the Aero.

For me, I had an instant gain from a P38 of 1.4mph. And now because I
ride more and enjoy my ride more, I'd claim a real 2-mph faster. Maybe
next week after a post ride beer I'll claim 7 or 8. <g>

Don

mike s
September 30th 03, 09:20 PM
(Truestorys) wrote in message >...
> Tom Sherman > wrote in message >...
>
> > I know of one rider who gained about 5 mph in average speed with a
> > change in the bike he was riding - bare P-38 to F-40 faired P-38. This
> > is quite a radical change, and I wound not expect such a speed gain from
> > switching to a Bacchetta unless the previous bike was a Rebike or
> > something similar.
> >
>
> Tom,
>
> Here's another claim for increase speed on an Aero. The guy who
> convinced me to buy an Aero rode a Rans Rocket that he loved. He had
> modified it with better wheels, tires and bigger chain ring. A year
> ago at the Hotter than Hell he averaged 18. This year he averaged 22.
> I think maybe he gained about 3 over the Rocket and another 1 because
> he now rides more and is in better shape. But all four miles an hour
> are because of the Aero.
>
> For me, I had an instant gain from a P38 of 1.4mph. And now because I
> ride more and enjoy my ride more, I'd claim a real 2-mph faster. Maybe
> next week after a post ride beer I'll claim 7 or 8. <g>
>
> Don

Just to put things in perspective, and not to start an argument, an
increase of 5 mph means that it will take a rider who preciously
average 14 mph almost two hours less to do a century. That is a
whopping difference. And, in the example that Don gives, if part of
the rider's increase in performance is due to his now being in better
shape, then theoretically the speed difference still wouldn't be that
great because he would then be faster on his original bike due to his
being in better shape. I don't doubt that somewhere out there someone
is capable of achieving this type of speed gain. But if you are
averaging 20 mph now a 5 mile increase is 25%. If you are averaging
14, then that is a 36% increase. Those are staggering figures. I
don't doubt for a minute that the Aero is a fast bike and people will
be faster on it. I just think some of the claims strains
credibility.IMHO.

Mike S.
St. Louis, Mo.

Robert Siegel
September 30th 03, 10:36 PM
A handful of recumbent riders ride amazingly FAST. we USUALLY identify them
easily.
I am NOT among them. ;-))

however, most reports of amazingly fast speeds on this NG are 100% bullsh*t.
My 'umble opinion ... and I have a highly developed bullsh*t detector
develpoed during 10 years as a newspaper editor and investigative reporter.

--
Gator Bob Siegel in Gainesville FL


.. I don't doubt that somewhere out there someone
> is capable of achieving this type of speed gain. But if you are
> averaging 20 mph now a 5 mile increase is 25%. If you are averaging
> 14, then that is a 36% increase. Those are staggering figures. I
> don't doubt for a minute that the Aero is a fast bike and people will
> be faster on it. I just think some of the claims strains
> credibility.IMHO.
>
> Mike S.
> St. Louis, Mo.

harryo
September 30th 03, 11:56 PM
(Truestorys) wrote in message >...
> Here's another claim for increase speed on an Aero. The guy who
> convinced me to buy an Aero rode a Rans Rocket that he loved. He had
> modified it with better wheels, tires and bigger chain ring. A year
> ago at the Hotter than Hell he averaged 18. This year he averaged 22.
> I think maybe he gained about 3 over the Rocket and another 1 because
> he now rides more and is in better shape. But all four miles an hour
> are because of the Aero.
>

This is the type of speed claim with which I really have problems.
How can you claim that the Aero alone accounted for a 4 mph increase
in speed, if you do not know how fast he would have averaged on that
same day, if riding the Rocket? IMO, this is an absolutely
meaningless comparison.

Harry Jiles

skip
October 1st 03, 02:40 AM
"mike s" > wrote in message
om...
> Just to put things in perspective, and not to start an argument, an
> increase of 5 mph means that it will take a rider who preciously
> average 14 mph almost two hours less to do a century. That is a
> whopping difference. And, in the example that Don gives, if part of
> the rider's increase in performance is due to his now being in better
> shape, then theoretically the speed difference still wouldn't be that
> great because he would then be faster on his original bike due to his
> being in better shape. I don't doubt that somewhere out there someone
> is capable of achieving this type of speed gain. But if you are
> averaging 20 mph now a 5 mile increase is 25%. If you are averaging
> 14, then that is a 36% increase. Those are staggering figures. I
> don't doubt for a minute that the Aero is a fast bike and people will
> be faster on it. I just think some of the claims strains
> credibility.IMHO.
>
> Mike S.
> St. Louis, Mo.

Lemme think. On a real good day I might average 14 mph on a century if I do
some exceptional calibrating on my bike computer before hand. Then if I buy
a new Bacchetta Aero it sounds as if that might add another 5 mph to my
average. Of course I would want to put an Angletech Aero Bag on the Aero
since it's reported to add another 3 mph to average speed. So now I should
be up to a 22 mph average. Naturally I'm going to want to do one of those
sub-four hour centuries since I'm kinda knockin' on that door. So my
question is what else should I buy to get that extra 3.1 mph I need?

skip

William Higley, Sr.
October 1st 03, 03:32 AM
An electric assist and a stockpile of strategically placed batteries :)

William Higley, Sr.
Vision R-50
RANS Rocket

"skip" > wrote in message
...
>
> "mike s" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Just to put things in perspective, and not to start an argument, an
> > increase of 5 mph means that it will take a rider who preciously
> > average 14 mph almost two hours less to do a century. That is a
> > whopping difference. And, in the example that Don gives, if part of
> > the rider's increase in performance is due to his now being in better
> > shape, then theoretically the speed difference still wouldn't be that
> > great because he would then be faster on his original bike due to his
> > being in better shape. I don't doubt that somewhere out there someone
> > is capable of achieving this type of speed gain. But if you are
> > averaging 20 mph now a 5 mile increase is 25%. If you are averaging
> > 14, then that is a 36% increase. Those are staggering figures. I
> > don't doubt for a minute that the Aero is a fast bike and people will
> > be faster on it. I just think some of the claims strains
> > credibility.IMHO.
> >
> > Mike S.
> > St. Louis, Mo.
>
> Lemme think. On a real good day I might average 14 mph on a century if I
do
> some exceptional calibrating on my bike computer before hand. Then if I
buy
> a new Bacchetta Aero it sounds as if that might add another 5 mph to my
> average. Of course I would want to put an Angletech Aero Bag on the Aero
> since it's reported to add another 3 mph to average speed. So now I
should
> be up to a 22 mph average. Naturally I'm going to want to do one of those
> sub-four hour centuries since I'm kinda knockin' on that door. So my
> question is what else should I buy to get that extra 3.1 mph I need?
>
> skip
>
>
>
>
>

Truestorys
October 1st 03, 05:50 AM
(harryo) wrote in message
>
> This is the type of speed claim with which I really have problems. <<

Harry and Mike and Gator Bob,

Believe what you want.

I almost got sucked into a long-winded tirade on why a 4-mph gain is
possible...........But then I just said to myself, F it. Who cares?

A 4-mph gain is NOT possible with an Aero. I've done the Math. You
can only accomplish that much of a gain with the aid of smoke and
mirrors. I was lying. I made most of that stuff up. You guys are
right. It can't happen. The world is right once again. I think most
of the people claiming any real speed advantage on the Aero are just
plain lying dogs. I wish I had my V-Rex back. ****, why did I ever
part with that thing!

Why did I ever buy this stupid Aero!

My $4000 is down the tubes on this worthless Ti space junk frame. 22
pounds of bull****! And a carbon fiber seat where you have to lean way
back, with your groin stuck way up in the air! Let me tell you, never
ride the thing after you taken some Viagra. Man oh Man, talk about
wind drag! That was a day I don't want to remember! Got my Viagra
and Advil mixed up! Went for a 30 mile bike ride and the Viagra
kicked in about mile 5! There I was, flat on my back on that God
Damn reclined M5 carbon fiber seat and out from my lycra loins comes
this woody the size of a fine cigar.

Straight up the thing was!

I hit it once with my frame pump just to try and knock the thing down!

But NO! It just raised it's ugly head up once again and stood firm
and proud in the morning air.

But the worst thing of all, was riding the rest of the 25 miles home.
All these horney old blue haired ladies, would drive their Caddys and
Lincoln Town cars up along side the Aero recumbent. They'd let out a
couple of toots on their horn, roll down their power windows, give me
the eye and start flirting with me. Ask me if I was Happy to see
them! A few even took out their false teeth and told me what they
could do for me! One 65 year old woman even flashed me with the
upper part of her body! That was not pretty!

I finally poured out my water bottle, turn the bottle up side down and
slid it over my raised manhood. I might have looked a little dorkey
riding like that, but I managed to make it home with out much more
harassment from the Senior set.

See how bad riding an Aero can be? Thank God, now that we know the
Truth, I think I'll put my Aero up for sale and see if I can get that
guy to sell me my old V-Rex back to me. Oh the speed claims I'll make
when I get that Baby back.

Don

Mikael Seierup
October 1st 03, 07:19 AM
"skip" skrev

> Lemme think. On a real good day I might average 14 mph on a century if I do
> some exceptional calibrating on my bike computer before hand. Then if I buy
> a new Bacchetta Aero it sounds as if that might add another 5 mph to my
> average. Of course I would want to put an Angletech Aero Bag on the Aero
> since it's reported to add another 3 mph to average speed. So now I should
> be up to a 22 mph average. Naturally I'm going to want to do one of those
> sub-four hour centuries since I'm kinda knockin' on that door. So my
> question is what else should I buy to get that extra 3.1 mph I need?

Well if its hilly I'd get a propellerhat.
That will get you up up and over those hills in no time.

M.

EZ Biker :-\)
October 1st 03, 12:24 PM
EXCELLENT REPLY Don! I'm with you. If "Our" speed claims are so
unbelievable, why even take the time to voice an opinion or even jump into
thread? Obviously SOMETHING must have peaked their interest, on the subject.
As far as WHATEVER speed claims undermining the Bacchetta product, BULL****!
If anything, it clearly seduces one to come and try the B product and see IF
that FOUNTAIN OF BETTER PERFORMANCE REALLY EXISTS. Keeping in mind that
THERE REALLY ARE some VERY STRONG cyclists out there. (I know because I GOT
MY "Thought my tail was FAST delusion" KICKED all of the place, by some
MARS(?) people in our Florida TT, earlier this year)
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. Bacchetta Aero Pilot)



"Truestorys" > wrote in message
om...
> I almost got sucked into a long-winded tirade on why a 4-mph gain is
> possible...........But then I just said to myself, F it. Who cares?

Jude T. McGloin
October 1st 03, 01:32 PM
Gee,
Whata thread???? As GatorBob has vioced for years his disbelief of
SOME speed claims and he is correct in doing so. Some not not all, possibly
most are inflated to say the least.
A change in ride can result in a significant increase in
speed....but just what constitiutes "significant"? Depends....A 5mph
increase in average speed for a 15 mph average speed rider is quite
unbelievable as a it constitutes a whooping 25% gain. Attainable with a
change in bent, time, conditioning and training but hardly with a mere
change of bike. So claims of this magnatude go in my BS box
For those that consistently ride in the high teens and low twenties
which IMO constitutes a small percentage of benters. Speed increases as a
result of a bike change are IMO are gonna be small but relativly
significant.
For most including myself changing bents involves a period of
adjustment. I went from a V-Rex and V2 to a Strada. I was initally 1.5 mph
slower on my normal runs. "Bentistic Musclarity" comes into play. Now that
said...I have an Aero, I'm "currently" not any faster than I was on the
V-Rex, V2 or Strada. Why? Prior to this year I rode more and trained harder.
I sprinted, did intervals, hill climbing and had a training program of
sorts. Twice a mont I did metric+ and 100 mile hill rides. Rode hard
fifties and moderate centuries during the week. This year was a bust due to
a number of things weather and family issues were among them.
IMO an aerodynamic, lightweight bent makes a difference, but speed
related road work, lots of it, makes a DIFFERENCE.
I didn't read Don's post. However, from EZ's reply I get the jest of
it. Evidently, Don has not met up with many, if any really fast riders. I
have been blown away by really fast riders on Bacchetta's, Socked GR/Ti Rush
and various LowRacers. I also have had dogfights with better conditioned
riders on lesser bikes.
I have said this many times....Go to a bent rally, bent TT's and
HPV events where the really serious guys compete. Most of end up sucking the
hind...well you know.

--
Jude....///Bacchetta AERO
St. Michaels and Tilghman Island.. Maryland
Wheel Doctor Cycle and Sports, Inc
1-800-586-6645
"EZ Biker :-)" > wrote in message
news:uPyeb.473392$Oz4.299541@rwcrnsc54...
> EXCELLENT REPLY Don! I'm with you. If "Our" speed claims are so
> unbelievable, why even take the time to voice an opinion or even jump into
> thread? Obviously SOMETHING must have peaked their interest, on the
subject.
> As far as WHATEVER speed claims undermining the Bacchetta product,
BULL****!
> If anything, it clearly seduces one to come and try the B product and see
IF
> that FOUNTAIN OF BETTER PERFORMANCE REALLY EXISTS. Keeping in mind that
> THERE REALLY ARE some VERY STRONG cyclists out there. (I know because I
GOT
> MY "Thought my tail was FAST delusion" KICKED all of the place, by some
> MARS(?) people in our Florida TT, earlier this year)
> EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. Bacchetta Aero Pilot)
>
>
>
> "Truestorys" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I almost got sucked into a long-winded tirade on why a 4-mph gain is
> > possible...........But then I just said to myself, F it. Who cares?
>
>

Steve Christensen
October 1st 03, 01:38 PM
In article >, Truestorys says...

There I was, flat on my back on that God
>Damn reclined M5 carbon fiber seat and out from my lycra loins comes
>this woody the size of a fine cigar.


Don,

I really don't care how fast you are on your bike. But you definitely passed
the bounds of good taste with this post. No doubt you thought you were being
extremely witty, but all you managed was crude. Take it to another NG.

Steve Christensen

Mick
October 1st 03, 02:37 PM
I have been fortunate enough to have owned both bikes and loved them
very much. However, I prefer the SWB Aero. The lack of "wheel flop"
makes it much easier to travel slowly up steep hills and mountains.
Both are very stable and fast but, I prefer the more "athletic" feel
of the Aero. The Aero responds quicker and has an edge in overall
speed especially climbing.

BentMick

Robert Siegel
October 1st 03, 03:29 PM
Jude, you said it all ... and you said it better than anyone.
We agree totally that amazing speed is a fact for a few recumbent riders.

As for all the rest of these WOW I AM FAST posts ... well, excuuuse me.
But B.S. is B.S.

Gator Bob Siegel in Gainesville FL

"Jude T. McGloin" > wrote in message
...
> Gee,
> Whata thread???? As GatorBob has vioced for years his disbelief of
> SOME speed claims and he is correct in doing so. Some not not all,
possibly
> most are inflated to say the least.
> A change in ride can result in a significant increase in
> speed....but just what constitiutes "significant"? Depends....A 5mph
> increase in average speed for a 15 mph average speed rider is quite
> unbelievable as a it constitutes a whooping 25% gain. Attainable with a
> change in bent, time, conditioning and training but hardly with a mere
> change of bike. So claims of this magnatude go in my BS box
> For those that consistently ride in the high teens and low twenties
> which IMO constitutes a small percentage of benters. Speed increases as a
> result of a bike change are IMO are gonna be small but relativly
> significant.
> For most including myself changing bents involves a period of
> adjustment. I went from a V-Rex and V2 to a Strada. I was initally 1.5 mph
> slower on my normal runs. "Bentistic Musclarity" comes into play. Now that
> said...I have an Aero, I'm "currently" not any faster than I was on the
> V-Rex, V2 or Strada. Why? Prior to this year I rode more and trained
harder.
> I sprinted, did intervals, hill climbing and had a training program of
> sorts. Twice a mont I did metric+ and 100 mile hill rides. Rode hard
> fifties and moderate centuries during the week. This year was a bust due
to
> a number of things weather and family issues were among them.
> IMO an aerodynamic, lightweight bent makes a difference, but speed
> related road work, lots of it, makes a DIFFERENCE.
> I didn't read Don's post. However, from EZ's reply I get the jest
of
> it. Evidently, Don has not met up with many, if any really fast riders. I
> have been blown away by really fast riders on Bacchetta's, Socked GR/Ti
Rush
> and various LowRacers. I also have had dogfights with better conditioned
> riders on lesser bikes.
> I have said this many times....Go to a bent rally, bent TT's and
> HPV events where the really serious guys compete. Most of end up sucking
the
> hind...well you know.
>
> --
> Jude....///Bacchetta AERO
> St. Michaels and Tilghman Island.. Maryland
> Wheel Doctor Cycle and Sports, Inc
> 1-800-586-6645
> "EZ Biker :-)" > wrote in message
> news:uPyeb.473392$Oz4.299541@rwcrnsc54...
> > EXCELLENT REPLY Don! I'm with you. If "Our" speed claims are so
> > unbelievable, why even take the time to voice an opinion or even jump
into
> > thread? Obviously SOMETHING must have peaked their interest, on the
> subject.
> > As far as WHATEVER speed claims undermining the Bacchetta product,
> BULL****!
> > If anything, it clearly seduces one to come and try the B product and
see
> IF
> > that FOUNTAIN OF BETTER PERFORMANCE REALLY EXISTS. Keeping in mind that
> > THERE REALLY ARE some VERY STRONG cyclists out there. (I know because I
> GOT
> > MY "Thought my tail was FAST delusion" KICKED all of the place, by some
> > MARS(?) people in our Florida TT, earlier this year)
> > EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. Bacchetta Aero Pilot)
> >
> >
> >
> > "Truestorys" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > I almost got sucked into a long-winded tirade on why a 4-mph gain is
> > > possible...........But then I just said to myself, F it. Who cares?
> >
> >
>
>

Mark Leuck
October 1st 03, 11:03 PM
"harryo" > wrote in message
om...
> (Truestorys) wrote in message
>...
>

>
> My final point. I ride an Optima Baron which probably weighs 8lbs, or
> more, more than an Aero. I am capable of riding it at a pretty fair
> speed. I have been on two organized rides this year, where there was
> a rider on a Bacchetta Aero(different riders at each event). I passed
> both of these riders and easily left them in my dust. I was easily
> more than 20% faster than both of them. Does this mean that a Baron
> is considerably faster than an Aero? Of course not, although, for the
> riding I do, I expect it is a bit faster. Does this mean that the
> Aero riders I passed would instantly see a sizable speed increase if
> they were to ride a Baron? Again, not at all. It means one thing,
> which is that I am in better shape than them and can probably easily
> outpace them on almost any fairly aerodynamic recumbent, such as my
> V-Rex.
>
> Again, this is not an attack or criticism on Bacchetta bikes. If you
> look at it as such, you are missing the point and, IMHO, are not
> seeing the whole picture.
>
> Harry Jiles

Some other things to consider

I went from a Vision R50 3 months ago to a Baron and in this case my average
went from 13.5mph to 17.9mph almost overnight. I attribute this to a more
aerodynamic bike, clip-on pedals and the fact I ride much more aggresively
on the Baron than I did the Vision.

Tom Sherman
October 2nd 03, 02:28 AM
skip wrote:
>
> Lemme think. On a real good day I might average 14 mph on a century if I do
> some exceptional calibrating on my bike computer before hand. Then if I buy
> a new Bacchetta Aero it sounds as if that might add another 5 mph to my
> average. Of course I would want to put an Angletech Aero Bag on the Aero
> since it's reported to add another 3 mph to average speed. So now I should
> be up to a 22 mph average. Naturally I'm going to want to do one of those
> sub-four hour centuries since I'm kinda knockin' on that door. So my
> question is what else should I buy to get that extra 3.1 mph I need?

A second computer magnet will increase your average speed to 28 mph. ;)

Tom Sherman - Near the confluence of the Mississippi and Rock Rivers

Tom Sherman
October 2nd 03, 02:50 AM
"Jude T. McGloin" wrote:
>
> ... A change in ride can result in a significant increase in
> speed....but just what constitiutes "significant"? Depends....A 5mph
> increase in average speed for a 15 mph average speed rider is quite
> unbelievable as a it constitutes a whooping 25% gain. Attainable with a
> change in bent, time, conditioning and training but hardly with a mere
> change of bike. So claims of this magnatude go in my BS box....

I believe that if you took a rider who averaged 15-mph on a particular
course on a BikeE and put that rider in a Lightning F-40, he or she
would be able to average over 20-mph [1] (with everything else being
equal).

If we really want to get ridiculous, we could compare Sam Whittingham's
performance on an oval auto racing track riding both a pedal powered hot
dog cart and the Varna Diablo II.

I will agree that a 5-mph increase in average speed is not likely
between any two unfaired bikes

[1] Assuming the necessary bike handling skills to ride the F-40.

Tom Sherman - Recumbent Pedant

EZ Biker :-\)
October 2nd 03, 06:29 AM
Nothing WRONG with Don's post Steve Christensen. I found his post quite
amusing and tasteful. (But then again, I enjoy watching Gerry Springer show
too) Perhaps this NG might be a TAD TOO RACY for your eyes, SO why don't
YOU consider another NG, with more tasteful content, suitable to your
OBVIOUSLY sensitive standards.
EZ (Enjoys passing the bounds of good taste too) Biker :-) Pompano Beach,
Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)

"Steve Christensen" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Truestorys
says...
> I really don't care how fast you are on your bike. But you definitely
passed
> the bounds of good taste with this post.

Ian
October 2nd 03, 08:34 AM
EZ Biker :-) must be edykated coz e writed:

> Nothing WRONG with Don's post Steve Christensen. I found his post quite
> amusing and tasteful. (But then again, I enjoy watching Gerry Springer show
> too) Perhaps this NG might be a TAD TOO RACY for your eyes, SO why don't
> YOU consider another NG, with more tasteful content, suitable to your
> OBVIOUSLY sensitive standards.
> EZ (Enjoys passing the bounds of good taste too) Biker :-) Pompano Beach,
> Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)
>
> "Steve Christensen" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article >, Truestorys
> says...
>> I really don't care how fast you are on your bike. But you definitely
> passed
>> the bounds of good taste with this post.
>
>
The guy has admitted he needs viagra to get it up, he does not need any more
mockery.

--
Ian

http://www.catrike.co.uk

EZ Biker :-\)
October 2nd 03, 12:35 PM
ALRIGHT JUDE!!! YEP this is clearly a thread that's taken on a life of it's
own. I'm close to connecting back with the Weekend BANZI Hammer group and
may even take a stab at the 6 AM Tues / Thurs Cat. 1 & 2 rider gathering, at
a LBS. These people (Yea, there's even a few females in the group) start off
in pre-ride warm-up at 23-24 mph!!! (Where is Rich and John of Bacchetta
when I need them) Talk about a GOOD AS... kicking I'm going to
endure!!!!!!!!!!!!! YEA!!!
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)


"Jude T. McGloin" > wrote in message
...
> Gee,
> Whata thread????

Truestorys
October 2nd 03, 12:43 PM
"Mark Leuck" > wrote in message >...

> Some other things to consider
>
> I went from a Vision R50 3 months ago to a Baron and in this case my average
> went from 13.5mph to 17.9mph almost overnight. I attribute this to a more
> aerodynamic bike, clip-on pedals and the fact I ride much more aggresively
> on the Baron than I did the Vision.


Oh Come on Mark. And increase of over 4 mph switching recumbents is
NOT possible! And you claim 4.4 mph. Gee's nobody on this news
group is going to believe that! You are over inflating your numbers.
I bet that Baron is not that fast. Can't be more aero than a Vision.

I think Harry Jiles has Baron recumbent. Let's ask him.

Harry Jiles, this Mark guy claims an increase in speed of over 4 mph
on his Baron from his old Vision recumbent. Can this be Possible? I
know you've repeatedly told me this is not possible, but I want to
believe this guy. It fits with my theory too of a positive speed
benefit from going from a non-aero recumbent to a more aero recumbent.
But you've trained me not to believe such bogus claims.

Mark, until Harry weights in on this, I believe you are probably only
a little bit faster.

Don

Truestorys
October 2nd 03, 12:58 PM
(harryo) wrote in message >...


>>This brings up the question of whether a conditioned
rider would be faster on an Aero than on a Corsa? Personally, I doubt
there would be any difference unless the course was all serious
climbing. The weight difference between the two is inconsequential
IMO.<<

Harry, we agree here 100%!

I think the Corsa has all the aerodynamic advantages of the Aero for a
lot less money. I would love to try one out. I think it's the over
looked bike. I saw one at the Hotter than Hell bike ride and it was
very good looking and clean. I don't think there would be one
I-oh-tha difference in speed. IMO.

Don

Mark Leuck
October 2nd 03, 01:40 PM
"Truestorys" > wrote in message
m...
> "Mark Leuck" > wrote in message
>...
>
> > Some other things to consider
> >
> > I went from a Vision R50 3 months ago to a Baron and in this case my
average
> > went from 13.5mph to 17.9mph almost overnight. I attribute this to a
more
> > aerodynamic bike, clip-on pedals and the fact I ride much more
aggresively
> > on the Baron than I did the Vision.
>
>
> Oh Come on Mark. And increase of over 4 mph switching recumbents is
> NOT possible! And you claim 4.4 mph. Gee's nobody on this news
> group is going to believe that! You are over inflating your numbers.
> I bet that Baron is not that fast. Can't be more aero than a Vision.
>
> I think Harry Jiles has Baron recumbent. Let's ask him.
>
> Harry Jiles, this Mark guy claims an increase in speed of over 4 mph
> on his Baron from his old Vision recumbent. Can this be Possible? I
> know you've repeatedly told me this is not possible, but I want to
> believe this guy. It fits with my theory too of a positive speed
> benefit from going from a non-aero recumbent to a more aero recumbent.
> But you've trained me not to believe such bogus claims.
>
> Mark, until Harry weights in on this, I believe you are probably only
> a little bit faster.
>
> Don

Thats fine with me

RCPINTO
October 2nd 03, 04:18 PM
Hi Guys

Since I get reports from riders all the time about speed
increases/decreases from different bikes, I thought I would throw a few typical
numbers into www.analyticcycling.com, and see what resulted.

The assumptions are the rolling resistance values would be those from John
Laffords small (and a very few) large tire rolling resistance study...they
varied from a Crr of .0043 to .0109. This would represent a conservative range
of the values available today in 16-27 inch tires.

I used frontal areas of .3 to .6m2, a conservative, tight range of
unfaired recumbent recumbent frontal areas from fastest to slowest. The slope
was set to zero, all other values were set to the defaults at "Speed given
Power" at analyticcycling.com.

With the higher rolling resistance tires on the higher frontal area
recumbent, 200 watts of power input resulted in a speed of 8.88m/sec, or
19.9MPH.

On the lower rolling resistance/lower frontal area recumbent, 200 watts
resulted in a speed of 12.07m/sec or 27.0 mph, or over 7 MPH faster than the
slower bike with the same input.

At 100 watts of input, the speed differences on the two bikes varied from
14.4 to 20.5 MPH, a difference of 6.1MPH.

Put the slower tires on the lower frontal bent, and the speed drops from
27.0 to 24.0MPH, almost exactly the same John Lafford's RR study calculated for
his bike with the tire values he tested.

These are extreme ranges of the unfaired recumbent spectrum, but it shows
that some of the speed improvements I've heard from some riders are not
necessarily placebo effects :<) depending of course on the bikes involved.



Rich Pinto
Bacchetta Bicycles

EZ Biker :-\)
October 2nd 03, 04:26 PM
Don, you are correct in your Corsa observation. I encountered a Corsa on my
second day out with my Aero and the guy was REALLY fast and really had his
Bacchetta legs already. (I'm still working on getting mine) At the most may
about a 5 or 7 lb difference??? Remember, it's still the Engine that makes a
bike go. (I might even think of getting my pending Giro painted YELLOW - A
Giro / Corsa setup?)
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)


"Truestorys" > wrote in message
om...
> I think the Corsa has all the aerodynamic advantages of the Aero for a
> lot less money. I would love to try one out. I think it's the over
> looked bike. I saw one at the Hotter than Hell bike ride and it was
> very good looking and clean. I don't think there would be one
> I-oh-tha difference in speed. IMO.
>
> Don

harryo
October 2nd 03, 07:19 PM
(Truestorys) wrote in message >...
>
> Harry Jiles, this Mark guy claims an increase in speed of over 4 mph
> on his Baron from his old Vision recumbent. Can this be Possible? I
> know you've repeatedly told me this is not possible, but I want to
> believe this guy. It fits with my theory too of a positive speed
> benefit from going from a non-aero recumbent to a more aero recumbent.
> But you've trained me not to believe such bogus claims.
>
> Mark, until Harry weights in on this, I believe you are probably only
> a little bit faster.

A little testy are we, Don? Are your feelings hurt because I posed
some questions about your claim that switching from a Rocket to an
Aero was the sole reason for your friend's increased speed? By the
way, those questions still stand. I honestly do not see how two
rides, 1 year apart, can be a valid basis for a speed comparison.

Mark gave other reasons why he saw an increase in average speeds and
did not claim that the difference was solely in the bike. I do not
question that going from a non-aero bent to a more aero one can give
one a speed advantage, but I would not call a Rocket non-aero. No it
is not as aeroynamic as an Aero but I still contend that the
difference would not account for 4 mph and have yet to see any facts
that would show otherwise.

Harry Jiles

harryo
October 3rd 03, 02:09 AM
(RCPINTO) wrote in message >...
>
> These are extreme ranges of the unfaired recumbent spectrum, but it shows
> that some of the speed improvements I've heard from some riders are not
> necessarily placebo effects :<) depending of course on the bikes involved.
>

I'm not questioning the fact that such differences could be seen
between the extreme ranges you mention. However, the claims I doubt
do not involve such extremes between bikes. Also, I have never
questioned the capabilities of the big wheeled Bacchettas. I think
you and your company have raised the bar for performance oriented swb
bents and applaud you for it.

Being the owner of an Optima Baron, I am fully aware of the advantages
of the hard shell seats and laid back, low profile riding position
they allow, especially when the wind is blowing hard, as it seems to
do all the time here in Central Illinois. I am also quite intrigued
by some of the possible advantages of the twin big wheel design and
believe a highracer might be in my future, when my finances allow.
Keep up the good work!

Harry Jiles

Truestorys
October 3rd 03, 03:21 AM
(harryo) wrote in message
>
> A little testy are we, Don?

No Harry, I'm having fun. I was hoping you would buy off on Marks's
speed claims because it was with a Baron, just like you ride. I was
sure you would fall for the bait because you can relate to a Baron
because you ride one. I thought you would Trust his facts because you
can relate to his ride experience.

>
> Mark gave other reasons why he saw an increase in average speeds and
> did not claim that the difference was solely in the bike.

Oh Harry, I hate going back to an old post and cutting and pasting
what I really said. Cause you can cut and paste and re-enforced what
you said and the spiral into Flame War Hell will have claim two more
victims. But I just couldn't help myself. You see, I didn't claim the
Whole 4 miles as Bike either! Yea Ha. Point for my side. Here's my
cut and paste:

<<<<<<This year he averaged 22.
I think maybe he gained about 3 over the Rocket and another 1 because
he now rides more and is in better shape.<<<<<

Oh God I feel good now.

Unless you call me a really ugly name, I'll let you have the last Cut
and Paste and maybe we can cease and desist and go back to riding our
bikes, smelling the cool fall air and thinking about what we want to
order from the new Colorado Cyclist catalog that just came today.
Have you seen that cool Pearl Izumi Staccato Jacket on page 17?

http://www.coloradocyclist.com/common/products/productdisplay2_v2.cfm?PRRFNBR=29996&S=30052,29996,23560

I want one of those. I'm sure the thing will make me two or 3 miles
faster since it has a Draft Flap.

Don

Randy Brown
October 3rd 03, 01:29 PM
I tried a Bacchetta and a couple other SWB models when I was shopping
for a new bike to replace my Bike RX. Just didn't like the feel -
wobbly, unstable. Laying down while riding just didn't seem
comfortable or natural. Felt too extreme. But I know that's part of
the appeal of these things.

I certainly could see that they could be a little speedy, but I asked
why I would want to ride faster on a bike that felt unstabler? Didn't
seem logical. Didn't seem a viable reason to lay down a few thousand
dollars.

I do find it interesting that he GRR folks aren't getting into this
"fish tale" about speed. I guess it could be because GRR's aren't
fast. ;-) But it could also be because GRR riders see quite a few
other things as also important to a good ride.

Enjoy the ride.

{rb}

RCPINTO
October 3rd 03, 02:44 PM
Harry Jiles wrote;


>I'm not questioning the fact that such differences could be seen
>between the extreme ranges you mention. However, the claims I doubt
>do not involve such extremes between bikes. Also, I have never
>questioned the capabilities of the big wheeled Bacchettas. I think
>you and your company have raised the bar for performance oriented swb
>bents and applaud you for it.
>

Thanks Harry, we appreciate it!

It is difficult to separate placebo effects from reality with some rider
accounts of bike speed...but we have a growing number of Bacchetta riders who
have owned many types of recumbent designs (including lowracers and fully
faired production recumbents) who are willing to honestly tell you the
strengths and weaknesses of the bikes they own.

Guys like Aero rider Zach Kaplan, who has been very honest about speed
comparisons with his Aero vs. the lowracers, front faired bents, and fully
faired bents he has owned and ridden over the years.

Most of the rider opinions I see are generally free of
designer/manufacturer bias and the other bent design axe grinding I see all the
time ("my bike is faster because it's high/low/big/small wheeled" etc) because
they own and have ridden both bikes for fair test periods.

As I'm sure we both agree, no one bike or design is perfect for everyone.


Tailwinds
Rich Pinto
Bacchetta Bicycles

Steve Christensen
October 3rd 03, 03:15 PM
In article >, Randy Brown
says...

>I do find it interesting that he GRR folks aren't getting into this
>"fish tale" about speed. I guess it could be because GRR's aren't
>fast. ;-) But it could also be because GRR riders see quite a few
>other things as also important to a good ride.


That's a great point to remember. Fast is fun, but it isn't the only thing that
matters. GRRs (along with bikes like Ryan Vanguard, or the new Slipstream) that
are perhaps better thought of in miles per day not miles per hour.

I love how fast and quick my RANS V2 feels compared with my old suspended Vision
VR-42. But the Vision is just so much more comfortable than the V2 that I can't
bear to give it up.

Steve Christensen
Midland, MI

EZ Biker :-\)
October 3rd 03, 04:33 PM
Randy, I've had a TE, GRR / Pol Alum and GRR Ti bike and let me assure you,
they are NO TURTLES. I've also been whipped by some FAST Easy Racer
cyclists, although I haven't encountered any at present, on my Aero. I don't
dislike my GRR Ti, but have decided that I can go as fast if not faster,
without the need of a fairing. As far as comfort, my Aero is just fine,
considering it is more geared for performance.
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)



"Randy Brown" > wrote in message
om...
> I do find it interesting that he GRR folks aren't getting into this
> "fish tale" about speed. I guess it could be because GRR's aren't
> fast. ;-)

mike s
October 3rd 03, 08:42 PM
Steve Christensen > wrote in message >...
> In article >, Randy Brown
> says...
>
> >I do find it interesting that he GRR folks aren't getting into this
> >"fish tale" about speed. I guess it could be because GRR's aren't
> >fast. ;-) But it could also be because GRR riders see quite a few
> >other things as also important to a good ride.
>
>
> That's a great point to remember. Fast is fun, but it isn't the only thing that
> matters. GRRs (along with bikes like Ryan Vanguard, or the new Slipstream) that
> are perhaps better thought of in miles per day not miles per hour.
>
>

Having pursued my wife in her bodysocked Gold Rush around many a farm
country road I can vouch for the fact that GRRs are very fast. But I
also have found (my observations only) that the more aggressive riders
tend to gravitate to the dual 26 inch wheeled bikes. At the Midwest
Recumbent Rally the charge to the front by the Volaes, Aeros and other
dual 26ers reminded me of the start of the Boston Marathon with all
the jostling for position. No universal rules here. Not all
aggressive riders ride these bikes nor do all non-aggressive riders
ride only other bikes. But speed seems to be from a number of
factors: conditons, bike, engine, comfort of the rider, attitude. I
don't think the absence of comments from any riders of any particular
bike type means they don't go fast. As I've commented on other
threads, Ed Gin, Alan Ariel or Dave Balfour would be faster on a BikeE
than I would be on a Bacchetta. But that doesn't stop me from putting
my two cents in, even if it isn't worth that much.

Mike S.
St. Louis, Mo

harryo
October 3rd 03, 09:49 PM
(Randy Brown) wrote in message >...
> I tried a Bacchetta and a couple other SWB models when I was shopping
> for a new bike to replace my Bike RX. Just didn't like the feel -
> wobbly, unstable. Laying down while riding just didn't seem
> comfortable or natural. Felt too extreme. But I know that's part of
> the appeal of these things.
>
> I certainly could see that they could be a little speedy, but I asked
> why I would want to ride faster on a bike that felt unstabler? Didn't
> seem logical. Didn't seem a viable reason to lay down a few thousand
> dollars.
>
> I do find it interesting that he GRR folks aren't getting into this
> "fish tale" about speed. I guess it could be because GRR's aren't
> fast. ;-) But it could also be because GRR riders see quite a few
> other things as also important to a good ride.

The "wobbly,unstable" feeling you had when first riding a swb bike
goes away as you get some miles and become accustomed to the
difference in handling. The handling is not unstable, it is quicker.
Once accustomed to it, it feels perfectly stable and natural. The
same goes for the reclined seat angle, although some people do not
seem to be able to get used to it. To be fair, you have to spend more
time than a few test rides before you can make a final judgement.

Actually, EZ Biker, who was first to respond in this thread, does own
a GRR Ti and BentMick, who also responded, stated that he owns, or has
owned, a GRR. Interestingly, both prefer the Aero. You seem to imply
that performance swb bents, with laid back, hard shell seats, and
quicker handling traits don't offer a "good ride" and lwb bents do.
I, and many other swb bent owners, would totally disagree.

Harry

harryo
October 3rd 03, 10:05 PM
Steve Christensen > wrote in message >...
>
> That's a great point to remember. Fast is fun, but it isn't the only thing that
> matters. GRRs (along with bikes like Ryan Vanguard, or the new Slipstream) that
> are perhaps better thought of in miles per day not miles per hour.
>

I don't disagree, but I would add that performance oriented bents
aren't necessarily uncomfortable on long rides. I personally don't
think a V2 is uncomfortable at all and I think my Baron, with the seat
fully reclined, is the most comfortable bent on which I have spent any
significant amount of time. I have done a 3 day ride each year, for
the last 4 years, where I ride 265-285 miles. This year, I rode 113,
108 and 62 miles during that ride. I have never wished for any more
comfort than what my Baron offered. It could be argued that a fast,
comfortable bike is best because you spend less time on the bike ;-)

Harry

Harry

harryo
October 3rd 03, 10:28 PM
"EZ Biker :-\)" > wrote in message news:<sFgfb.487827$cF.171032@rwcrnsc53>...
> Randy, I've had a TE, GRR / Pol Alum and GRR Ti bike and let me assure you,
> they are NO TURTLES. I've also been whipped by some FAST Easy Racer
>

This is the truth. During the last several years, I have ridden with
several GRR riders who were quite fast. On the AITC ride this year, I
spent 3 days riding with a faired GRR rider named Larry Sears, from
Bloomington, IL. Larry rode many miles, right along side of me, at
speeds of 20-24 mph.

Harry

Mike
October 3rd 03, 10:46 PM
(Randy Brown) wrote in message >...

> I do find it interesting that he GRR folks aren't getting into this
> "fish tale" about speed. I guess it could be because GRR's aren't
> fast. ;-) But it could also be because GRR riders see quite a few
> other things as also important to a good ride.
>
> Enjoy the ride.
>
> {rb}


RB, I can assure that GRR's are very fast. In fact, when you put a
sock on one, they are real tough to beat. Also, I have a hard time
understanding why anyone would think that an Aero, with it's crank
rotating out there in front mixing up all that air, would be more
aerodynamic that a fully socked GRR.

Mike

Mark Leuck
October 3rd 03, 11:16 PM
"harryo" > wrote in message
om...
> Steve Christensen > wrote in message
>...
> >
> > That's a great point to remember. Fast is fun, but it isn't the only
thing that
> > matters. GRRs (along with bikes like Ryan Vanguard, or the new
Slipstream) that
> > are perhaps better thought of in miles per day not miles per hour.
> >
>
> I don't disagree, but I would add that performance oriented bents
> aren't necessarily uncomfortable on long rides. I personally don't
> think a V2 is uncomfortable at all and I think my Baron, with the seat
> fully reclined, is the most comfortable bent on which I have spent any
> significant amount of time. I have done a 3 day ride each year, for
> the last 4 years, where I ride 265-285 miles. This year, I rode 113,
> 108 and 62 miles during that ride. I have never wished for any more
> comfort than what my Baron offered. It could be argued that a fast,
> comfortable bike is best because you spend less time on the bike ;-)
>
> Harry

Agreed although if you do end up spending MORE time on the Baron it isn't
bad at all. One of my concerns when buying the bike was how well it tours
and it appears it does that very very well

Uncle Rufus
October 3rd 03, 11:53 PM
"Mike" > wrote in message
om...
> (Randy Brown) wrote in message
>...
>
> > I do find it interesting that he GRR folks aren't getting into this
> > "fish tale" about speed. I guess it could be because GRR's aren't
> > fast. ;-) But it could also be because GRR riders see quite a few
> > other things as also important to a good ride.
> >
> > Enjoy the ride.
> >
> > {rb}
>
>
> RB, I can assure that GRR's are very fast. In fact, when you put a
> sock on one, they are real tough to beat. Also, I have a hard time
> understanding why anyone would think that an Aero, with it's crank
> rotating out there in front mixing up all that air, would be more
> aerodynamic that a fully socked GRR.
>
> Mike

Would a little one on one race settle this? Maybe Fast Freddy on a GRR and
Rich Pinto on an Aero?

skip

Robert Siegel
October 4th 03, 12:57 AM
We may see some very fast times by Fast Freddy and others when his
all-carbon GRR II goes into production.

I am looking forward to seeing what a fully-socked 24-26 pound FF-Calfee GRR
II can do. Fast, easy to handle AND comfortable... what a great prospect!

Gator Bob Siegel in Gainesville FL


"Uncle Rufus" > wrote > >
> > RB, I can assure that GRR's are very fast. In fact, when you put a
> > sock on one, they are real tough to beat. > > Mike
>
> Would a little one on one race settle this? Maybe Fast Freddy on a GRR
and
> Rich Pinto on an Aero?
>
> skip
>
>

Mike
October 4th 03, 03:13 AM
"Uncle Rufus" > wrote in message >...
> "Mike" > wrote in message
> om...
> > (Randy Brown) wrote in message
> >...
> >
> > > I do find it interesting that he GRR folks aren't getting into this
> > > "fish tale" about speed. I guess it could be because GRR's aren't
> > > fast. ;-) But it could also be because GRR riders see quite a few
> > > other things as also important to a good ride.
> > >
> > > Enjoy the ride.
> > >
> > > {rb}
> >
> >
> > RB, I can assure that GRR's are very fast. In fact, when you put a
> > sock on one, they are real tough to beat. Also, I have a hard time
> > understanding why anyone would think that an Aero, with it's crank
> > rotating out there in front mixing up all that air, would be more
> > aerodynamic that a fully socked GRR.
> >
> > Mike
>
> Would a little one on one race settle this? Maybe Fast Freddy on a GRR and
> Rich Pinto on an Aero?
>
> skip


Well, Freddy was a world class athlete and I don't think Rich was. So
that wouldn't be fair. But it would probably show that it's the engine
that really matters.

Mike

October 4th 03, 05:32 AM
"Uncle Rufus" > wrote in message >...
> "Mike" > wrote in message
> om...
> > (Randy Brown) wrote in message
> >...
> >
> > > I do find it interesting that he GRR folks aren't getting into this
> > > "fish tale" about speed. I guess it could be because GRR's aren't
> > > fast. ;-) But it could also be because GRR riders see quite a few
> > > other things as also important to a good ride.
> > >
> > > Enjoy the ride.



> Would a little one on one race settle this? Maybe Fast Freddy on a GRR and
> Rich Pinto on an Aero?
>
> skip


Does anybody really think a Gold Rush with a body sock is slow? Does
anybody think a Stiletto with a body sock is going to be slow. I've
said this before and it's worth saying again...unfairied against
unfaired the Bacchetta might be faster in a straight line, but I think
I'm safe to say that a body socked bike will be faster. Not only
faster, but stop faster and accelerate quicker and probably corner
better. A lot of claims I know and that is why I will just have get
out there next year and go head to head with manufactures....it should
be interesting...
Freddy

Mark Leuck
October 4th 03, 06:47 AM
> wrote in message
om...
>
> Does anybody really think a Gold Rush with a body sock is slow? Does
> anybody think a Stiletto with a body sock is going to be slow. I've
> said this before and it's worth saying again...unfairied against
> unfaired the Bacchetta might be faster in a straight line, but I think
> I'm safe to say that a body socked bike will be faster. Not only
> faster, but stop faster and accelerate quicker and probably corner
> better. A lot of claims I know and that is why I will just have get
> out there next year and go head to head with manufactures....it should
> be interesting...
> Freddy

Why stop faster and corner better?

Tom Sherman
October 4th 03, 11:45 AM
Mark Leuck wrote:
>
> > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > Does anybody really think a Gold Rush with a body sock is slow? Does
> > anybody think a Stiletto with a body sock is going to be slow. I've
> > said this before and it's worth saying again...unfairied against
> > unfaired the Bacchetta might be faster in a straight line, but I think
> > I'm safe to say that a body socked bike will be faster. Not only
> > faster, but stop faster and accelerate quicker and probably corner
> > better. A lot of claims I know and that is why I will just have get
> > out there next year and go head to head with manufactures....it should
> > be interesting...
> > Freddy
>
> Why stop faster and corner better?

From Mr. Markham's previous postings, it can be determined that he
believes that the Easy Racers design allows for better cornering,
acceleration and braking than other recumbent designs. The body sock
will not affect these except for improving high speed acceleration (due
to less aerodynamic drag), decreasing low speed acceleration (more
weight) and a slight negative effect on braking (more weight and less
aerodynamic drag). Except for high speed acceleration, these effects
will be minor.

The bodysock will also work as a steering damper [1], but that should
not really affect maximum cornering speeds.

The performance increase obtained by adding a bodysock to a front-faired
LWB bike is not subtle. Best of all, crosswind handling is actually
improved with a bodysock compared to having only a front fairing.

[1] I know several Easy Racer owners who prefer the handling of the bike
with the sock on.

Tom Sherman - Near the confluence of the Mississippi and Rock Rivers

Mike
October 4th 03, 03:24 PM
Tom Sherman > wrote in message >...

> The performance increase obtained by adding a bodysock to a front-faired
> LWB bike is not subtle. Best of all, crosswind handling is actually
> improved with a bodysock compared to having only a front fairing.
>
> [1] I know several Easy Racer owners who prefer the handling of the bike
> with the sock on.
>

I agree (twice). Yesterday, I put on a body sock on my GRR for the
first time ever and I was amazed at the increase in speed. But also,
as you mention Tom, I was really suprised at the improvement in
crosswind handling.

Mike

Robert Siegel
October 4th 03, 03:44 PM
Do you notice the added weight on uprill runs?

--
Gator Bob Siegel in Gainesville FL
"Mike" > wrote in message
om...
> Tom Sherman > wrote in message
>...
>
> > The performance increase obtained by adding a bodysock to a front-faired
> > LWB bike is not subtle. Best of all, crosswind handling is actually
> > improved with a bodysock compared to having only a front fairing.
> >
> > [1] I know several Easy Racer owners who prefer the handling of the bike
> > with the sock on.
> >
>
> I agree (twice). Yesterday, I put on a body sock on my GRR for the
> first time ever and I was amazed at the increase in speed. But also,
> as you mention Tom, I was really suprised at the improvement in
> crosswind handling.
>
> Mike

EZ Biker :-\)
October 4th 03, 05:04 PM
Harry, I'm still sorting out my Aero and just completed a 62 metric this
morning, with an overall average of 19.1 mph. The only thing uncomfortable
at the end are my NOW JELLY legs. Admittedly my Aero rides a lot smoother
now that I ditched the 145 psi tires and opted for Conti GP's at 120 psi. I
actually feel the same as you do, in that you can get a GOOD Smooth ride on
a SWB, once you have it sorted out. TRUE, a LWB can smooth out rough roads
better than a SWB, just by the length of the bike, that dampens the road
shock. Again, I'm not unhappy with Easy Racer bikes: BUT am disenchanted
with continued use of a fairing. It's just not needed, if your body in
already in an Aero position. (IMHO)
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)




"harryo" > wrote in message
om...
> Actually, EZ Biker, who was first to respond in this thread, does own
> a GRR Ti and BentMick, who also responded, stated that he owns, or has
> owned, a GRR. Interestingly, both prefer the Aero. You seem to imply
> that performance swb bents, with laid back, hard shell seats, and
> quicker handling traits don't offer a "good ride" and lwb bents do.
> I, and many other swb bent owners, would totally disagree.
>
> Harry

EZ Biker :-\)
October 4th 03, 05:11 PM
Mike, I've never ridden with Fast Freddy, but I did with Rich and John of
Bacchetta. Let me tell you, in a STIFF 20+ mph (COLD 35 degree, yep it was
that chilly here in South Florida, back then) ) headwind, these guys were
EASLEY rolling at 23+ mph. I know this because I was doing the TURTLE thing
at about 20 mph, on my GRR Ti and the fairing CLEARLY was not my friend
aerodynamically wise on that day.
Also if I'm not mistake, I saw posted somewhere, where John did about a "4"
hour century, with overall average speed about 25 mph. NOW THAT'S WHAT I
CALL BEING PRETTY FAST!
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)


"Mike" > wrote in message
om...
> Well, Freddy was a world class athlete and I don't think Rich was. So
> that wouldn't be fair. But it would probably show that it's the engine
> that really matters.
>
> Mike

Tom Sherman
October 4th 03, 05:47 PM
Robert Siegel wrote:
>
> Do you notice the added weight [of a bodysock] on uprill runs?

I found that riding with a bodysock [1] actually improved my climbing
speed on short hills and shallow grades due to the decreased aerodynamic
drag. Others who have ridden highly aerodynamic bikes (e.g. Lightning
F-40) have reported the same effect.

At some point the extra weight of the fairing(s) will decrease climbing
performance - typically this will be a grade steep enough to reduce
climbing speed to below 12 mph (~20 kph) or so.

A bodysock add little weight beyond that of a front fairing. On an Easy
Racer, most of the added weight will be that of the rear rack that is
required to support the bodysock mounts.

[1] < http://www.ransbikes.com/Gallery/Archive/Sherman.htm >

Tom Sherman - Near the confluence of the Mississippi and Rock Rivers

Mike
October 4th 03, 09:44 PM
"Robert Siegel" > wrote in message >...
> Do you notice the added weight on uprill runs?
>
> --
> Gator Bob Siegel in Gainesville FL


Added weight! The only addtional weight is the weight of the lycra
sock and the pole in the back of the bike. So maybe it's an extra
pound. However, when I added the sock I had to use a smaller rear rack
pack and thus take less junk with me. So I'm probably the same weight
as before. Besides, this weight thing is overblown. The total weight
of me and the bike is about 215 pounds. What difference would an extra
pound or two do. However, because I'm so much more aerodynamic the
speed increase is significant. For instance, on a downhill that I
normally coast at 35 mph I can now coast at 39 mhp!

One more thing, up here in the Northeast where the temperatures are
starting to drop, I am really toasty in the sock.

Mike

Robert Siegel
October 5th 03, 12:02 AM
You are right ... and also wrong. Weight is not a terrible monster ... but
.... the weight of the thicker fairing is an added 1.5 pounds, the rear rack
and support triangle another 1.5 pounds and the lycra maybe 6 ounces. It's
all unsprung weight.

--
Gator Bob Siegel in Gainesville FL
"Mike" > wrote in message
om...
> "Robert Siegel" > wrote in message
>...
> > Do you notice the added weight on uprill runs?
> >
> > --
> > Gator Bob Siegel in Gainesville FL
>
>
> Added weight! The only addtional weight is the weight of the lycra
> sock and the pole in the back of the bike. So maybe it's an extra
> pound. However, when I added the sock I had to use a smaller rear rack
> pack and thus take less junk with me. So I'm probably the same weight
> as before. Besides, this weight thing is overblown. The total weight
> of me and the bike is about 215 pounds. What difference would an extra
> pound or two do. However, because I'm so much more aerodynamic the
> speed increase is significant. For instance, on a downhill that I
> normally coast at 35 mph I can now coast at 39 mhp!
>
> One more thing, up here in the Northeast where the temperatures are
> starting to drop, I am really toasty in the sock.
>
> Mike

Tom Sherman
October 5th 03, 12:23 AM
Robert Siegel wrote:
>
> You are right ... and also wrong. Weight is not a terrible monster ... but
> ... the weight of the thicker fairing is an added 1.5 pounds, the rear rack
> and support triangle another 1.5 pounds and the lycra maybe 6 ounces. It's
> all unsprung weight.

All weight on a standard Easy Racer is unsprung. If you want to
eliminate most of the unsprung weight, get a Fold Rush and put a Pantour
hub on the front.

Tom Sherman - Near the confluence of the Mississippi and Rock Rivers

Robert Siegel
October 5th 03, 12:27 AM
I have a Pantour front hub and the titanium frame definitley is a softer
ride. But weight is weight especially on an already over-30 pound recumbent.

--
Gator Bob Siegel in Gainesville FL
"Tom Sherman" > wrote in message
...
>
> Robert Siegel wrote:
> >
> > You are right ... and also wrong. Weight is not a terrible monster ...
but
> > ... the weight of the thicker fairing is an added 1.5 pounds, the rear
rack
> > and support triangle another 1.5 pounds and the lycra maybe 6 ounces.
It's
> > all unsprung weight.
>
> All weight on a standard Easy Racer is unsprung. If you want to
> eliminate most of the unsprung weight, get a Fold Rush and put a Pantour
> hub on the front.
>
> Tom Sherman - Near the confluence of the Mississippi and Rock Rivers

John Rooker
October 5th 03, 01:17 AM
In article <rcCfb.678052$Ho3.144386@sccrnsc03>, "EZ Biker :-\)"
> says...
> Harry, I'm still sorting out my Aero and just completed a 62 metric this
> morning, with an overall average of 19.1 mph. The only thing uncomfortable
> at the end are my NOW JELLY legs. Admittedly my Aero rides a lot smoother
> now that I ditched the 145 psi tires and opted for Conti GP's at 120 psi. I
> actually feel the same as you do, in that you can get a GOOD Smooth ride on
> a SWB, once you have it sorted out. TRUE, a LWB can smooth out rough roads
> better than a SWB, just by the length of the bike, that dampens the road
> shock. Again, I'm not unhappy with Easy Racer bikes: BUT am disenchanted
> with continued use of a fairing. It's just not needed, if your body in
> already in an Aero position. (IMHO)
> EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)
>

Spoken like a Floridian!! Up here in New York, we like to have
something to hide behind when it gets cold! :)

--
___________________
John Rooker KC2KQT
Rochester, NY

Sticker Jim
October 5th 03, 03:25 AM
"Mark Leuck" > wrote in message
news:v1Veb.660269$Ho3.136169@sccrnsc03...
>
> "Truestorys" > wrote in message
> m...
> > "Mark Leuck" > wrote in message
> >...
> >
> > > Some other things to consider
> > >
> > > I went from a Vision R50 3 months ago to a Baron and in this case my
> average
> > > went from 13.5mph to 17.9mph almost overnight. I attribute this to a
> more
> > > aerodynamic bike, clip-on pedals and the fact I ride much more
> aggresively
> > > on the Baron than I did the Vision.
> >
> >
> > Oh Come on Mark. And increase of over 4 mph switching recumbents is
> > NOT possible! And you claim 4.4 mph. Gee's nobody on this news
> > group is going to believe that! You are over inflating your numbers.
> > I bet that Baron is not that fast. Can't be more aero than a Vision.
> >
> > I think Harry Jiles has Baron recumbent. Let's ask him.
> >
> > Harry Jiles, this Mark guy claims an increase in speed of over 4 mph
> > on his Baron from his old Vision recumbent. Can this be Possible? I
> > know you've repeatedly told me this is not possible, but I want to
> > believe this guy. It fits with my theory too of a positive speed
> > benefit from going from a non-aero recumbent to a more aero recumbent.
> > But you've trained me not to believe such bogus claims.
> >
> > Mark, until Harry weights in on this, I believe you are probably only
> > a little bit faster.
> >
> > Don
>
> Thats fine with me

That was some pretty fine tounge-in-cheek writing from Don. :) Don't take
it seriously.

ibasnazy1
October 7th 03, 06:29 AM
No one mentioned the Vision VR65 in respect to the Aero? I'd like to
read a head to head comparison between those two.



--
>--------------------------<
Posted via cyclingforums.com
http://www.cyclingforums.com

EZ Biker :-\)
October 7th 03, 12:29 PM
NOT MEANING TO BE A SMART ASS HERE, but why not post a NEW thread, seeking
the information you are looking for?
VR65 v. Bacchetta Aero
Sorry to say, but this particular thread has just worn it's self out! :-)
<Grin>
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)





"ibasnazy1" > wrote in message
...
> No one mentioned the Vision VR65 in respect to the Aero? I'd like to
> read a head to head comparison between those two.
>
>
>
> --
> >--------------------------<
> Posted via cyclingforums.com
> http://www.cyclingforums.com

Truestorys
October 8th 03, 04:45 AM
"EZ Biker :-\)" > wrote in message >...
>
> Sorry to say, but this particular thread has just worn it's self out! :-)
> <Grin>
> EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)
>
>

You can say that again EZ!

And I had another flat tire on the Aero tonight. I do have the
ToughMan Conti's on the Aero, but still picked up a sliver of glass.
And man oh man was it a sliver. About a 1/8 inch sharp pointed piece
of glass. Now how in the hell em I ever going to see a sliver that
small and avoid it?

Life goes on.
Buying more tubes at the bike shop tomorrow.

Don

Tom Blum
October 8th 03, 01:23 PM
Just relax. What ever causes these things (bad karma; voodoo curse; etc)
they seem to run in clusters and then abate for a while.

The eagle eyes among us thing vigilance is the answer. I say "relax!
Resistance is Futile!"

This, too, shall pass.


--
Miles of Smiles,

Tom Blum
Winter Haven, Florida
Homebuilts: SWB
Tour Easy Clone
Speed Machine Clone
High Racer Clone
www.gate.net/~teblum

Dave Clary
October 8th 03, 10:36 PM
I find the best defense against flats is my Motorola V60 and the wife's minivan!

:-)

Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, Tx
EZ-1SC Pilot (Texas P-38 Squadron Retired)
Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary
P-38 Stuff: http://www.geocities.com/TexasP38/TexasP38.html

Truestorys
October 9th 03, 01:47 PM
Dave Clary > wrote in message >...
> I find the best defense against flats is my Motorola V60 and the wife's minivan!
>
> :-)
>
> Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, Tx


Dave,

I have called my wife 4 times in like, the last month. She is very
gracious and always comes to get me. But, I must endure a lot of
snickering on the ride home.

I've been plagued by flats this year. I think now that Texan's can't
have an open container in their pickup trucks, they now throw their
Lone Star beer bottles out the window and onto the road.

Don

EZ Biker :-\)
October 12th 03, 09:57 PM
Don this might sound STUPID, but when possible try and ride as far from the
side of the road as you can. Of course if there's traffic, you can try and
be as observant as possible, realizing that one can see every bit of glass.
My fun....... flats usually occur when it's wet. SO FAR my Conti GP 3000's
have held up pretty well.
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)




"Truestorys" > wrote in message
om...
> I've been plagued by flats this year. I think now that Texan's can't
> have an open container in their pickup trucks, they now throw their
> Lone Star beer bottles out the window and onto the road.
>
> Don

Google

Home - Home - Home - Home - Home