Bacchetta Corsa questions...(was Re: Gold Rush (or Ti Rush) v. Bacchetta Aero )

[harryo]

OK, a couple of you Aero owners have agreed with my assessment that a
Corsa should have virtually the same performance potential as an Aero,
while weighing only a bit more. Can anyone tell me what a Corsa does
weigh? The Bacchetta site doesn't list the weight and I have not seen
it published elsewhere. Obviously, it must weigh something between a
Strada and an Aero. Not that it really matters to me because I am not
a weight weenie anyway, but I am curious.

Also, it appears to me that the fixed riser on the Aero can compromise
the aerodynamics of the bike, something I have also heard mentioned by
a couple of Aero owners. Seat angle seems that to be dependent on the
rider to bike fit, particularly the length of one's torso and arms.
Once the proper fore and aft seat position is established, the angle
of seat layback it limited to the amount of the rider's arm extension.
My thought is that the GlideFlex riser on the Corsa would allow one
to set the seat angle independently of fore fore and aft seat
position, allowing a more aerodynamic rider position while still
giving the rider some flexibility in arm positioning. Your thoughts?

Harry

[EZ Biker :-\)]

harry, I'm 5'.9" with an inseam of 42. My seat (On the frame mount) is
placed 4 holes from the back. I also have 3 spacers in my fix high riser.
(Admittedly I am using an adjustable front crank, that presently I have set
at 170) I have no problem reaching my handlebars and additionally I switched
out the short barrel grip shifters and replaced them with barcons. I now
have a much more complete full grasp of my handlebar ins. My seat is still
at the 7 hole from the top; but I plan to drop it down (Lean the seat back
more) to about 4 or 5 hole. HOWEVER first I need to lose about 2 spacers in
my riser, to which then I will still be able to see plenty of road in front
of me, even at a more laid back position. Not really trying to be an
Aerodynamic weenie, but I am thinking of maybe placing a small plastic duel
sheet (Stapling it around the riser tube) around the riser, which would then
make for less wide mass exposure of the riser post. Other than that, I have
no need to have to move my seat mount / frame any, as my arms are perfectly
placed on the riser handlebars.
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)




"harryo" > wrote in message
om...
> My thought is that the GlideFlex riser on the Corsa would allow one
> to set the seat angle independently of fore fore and aft seat
> position, allowing a more aerodynamic rider position while still
> giving the rider some flexibility in arm positioning. Your thoughts?
>
> Harry

[EZ Biker :-\)]

harry, I'm 5'.9" with an inseam of 42. My seat (On the frame mount) is
placed 4 holes from the back. I also have 3 spacers in my fix high riser.
(Admittedly I am using an adjustable front crank, that presently I have set
at 170) I have no problem reaching my handlebars and additionally I switched
out the short barrel grip shifters and replaced them with barcons. I now
have a much more complete full grasp of my handlebar ins. My seat is still
at the 7 hole from the top; but I plan to drop it down (Lean the seat back
more) to about 4 or 5 hole. HOWEVER first I need to lose about 2 spacers in
my riser, to which then I will still be able to see plenty of road in front
of me, even at a more laid back position. Not really trying to be an
Aerodynamic weenie, but I am thinking of maybe placing a small plastic duel
sheet (Stapling it around the riser tube) around the riser, which would then
make for less wide mass exposure of the riser post. Other than that, I have
no need to have to move my seat mount / frame any, as my arms are perfectly
placed on the riser handlebars.
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)




"harryo" > wrote in message
om...
> My thought is that the GlideFlex riser on the Corsa would allow one
> to set the seat angle independently of fore fore and aft seat
> position, allowing a more aerodynamic rider position while still
> giving the rider some flexibility in arm positioning. Your thoughts?
>
> Harry

[EZ Biker :-\)]

harry, I'm 5'.9" with an inseam of 42. My seat (On the frame mount) is
placed 4 holes from the back. I also have 3 spacers in my fix high riser.
(Admittedly I am using an adjustable front crank, that presently I have set
at 170) I have no problem reaching my handlebars and additionally I switched
out the short barrel grip shifters and replaced them with barcons. I now
have a much more complete full grasp of my handlebar ins. My seat is still
at the 7 hole from the top; but I plan to drop it down (Lean the seat back
more) to about 4 or 5 hole. HOWEVER first I need to lose about 2 spacers in
my riser, to which then I will still be able to see plenty of road in front
of me, even at a more laid back position. Not really trying to be an
Aerodynamic weenie, but I am thinking of maybe placing a small plastic duel
sheet (Stapling it around the riser tube) around the riser, which would then
make for less wide mass exposure of the riser post. Other than that, I have
no need to have to move my seat mount / frame any, as my arms are perfectly
placed on the riser handlebars.
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)




"harryo" > wrote in message
om...
> My thought is that the GlideFlex riser on the Corsa would allow one
> to set the seat angle independently of fore fore and aft seat
> position, allowing a more aerodynamic rider position while still
> giving the rider some flexibility in arm positioning. Your thoughts?
>
> Harry

[PJ]

(harryo) wrote in message >...
> OK, a couple of you Aero owners have agreed with my assessment that a
> Corsa should have virtually the same performance potential as an Aero,
> while weighing only a bit more. Can anyone tell me what a Corsa does
> weigh? The Bacchetta site doesn't list the weight and I have not seen
> it published elsewhere. Obviously, it must weigh something between a
> Strada and an Aero. Not that it really matters to me because I am not
> a weight weenie anyway, but I am curious.
>
> Also, it appears to me that the fixed riser on the Aero can compromise
> the aerodynamics of the bike, something I have also heard mentioned by
> a couple of Aero owners. Seat angle seems that to be dependent on the
> rider to bike fit, particularly the length of one's torso and arms.
> Once the proper fore and aft seat position is established, the angle
> of seat layback it limited to the amount of the rider's arm extension.
> My thought is that the GlideFlex riser on the Corsa would allow one
> to set the seat angle independently of fore fore and aft seat
> position, allowing a more aerodynamic rider position while still
> giving the rider some flexibility in arm positioning. Your thoughts?
>
> Harry

Harry

In response to your questions. I own a Strada with the M5 Carbon seat
as opposed to the fiberglas seat on the Corsa and a pretty light set
of Velocity Aerohead wheels with American Classic hubs which are a bit
lighter than the Alex Rims on the Corsa. While I did change out my
cranks I went with shorter 165 Truvativ cranks versus going with
lighter 170 FSA carbon cranks. My bike weighs just a bit over 26 lbs
for the Large frame with pedals and I would guess a Corsa would weigh
about 26.5 to 27.5lbs. In real life there is probably about a 3.5 to
4.0 difference between these bikes and the Aero.

As to which is a cleaner bike, aerodynamically, I think alot depends
on how one has set up their bike and adjusted the riding position.
The glidelex does allow more versatility, and does add about a half
pound of weight, which in and of itself has no practical effect on
performance.

I think/know that the Aero will have very slightly less drag, all
things being equal, because of some very minor differences ie fork.
But in reality alot depends again on how each particular rider has the
bike set up and the corresponding rider position. All of which then
takes you back to the engine which is where the real differences will
show up.

Pat Mc

[EZ Biker :-\)]

OOOPS! Sorry for the repeat postings! Now I know what my OE newsreader was
doing, when it hick-upped!!!
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)


"

[harryo]

(PJ) wrote in message >...
> But in reality alot depends again on how each particular rider has the
> bike set up and the corresponding rider position. All of which then
> takes you back to the engine which is where the real differences will
> show up.
>

What I am getting at is that because of the fixed riser on an Aero,
seat recline seems to be limited to the point where the rider's arms
are fully extended. Since there are physical differences between
torso and arm lengths of individuals, some riders are not able to
recline the seat as far as others and therefore would present a
greater frontal area and regardless of the rider's arm length, seat
recline still seems to be fully dependent on the rider's physiology.
With an angle adjustable stem, the seat recline could be totally
independent and the seat could be reclined to a lower angle to reduce
the frontal profile, without having the handlebars out of comfortable
reach.

Do you Aero owners not find that if your seat is reclined too much,
you lose comfortable contact with the handlebars? I look at pictures
of riders on Aeros and of myself, on my Baron, and can see that the
maximum reclined seat of a Baron allows a smaller frontal profile,
therefore an aerodynamic advantage. Have any Aero owners tried a
different riser setup so they could recline the seat more?

Harry

[Jude T. McGloin]

How you have the Aero or Corsa or for that matter an Strada/Corsa set up
has much to do with aerodynamic efficency. Presenting the smallest profile
is the key. As the Bacchetta Corsa and Aero have evolved the handlebars have
lost their flair and the risers have shortened. This was with aerodynamics
in mind.
I weighed a stock Corsa today it weighed 26 lbs 9 oz.
When it comes to evaluating say and Aero vs. various configurations of the
GRR/To Rush. I think that EZ wins the creditabilty war since very few out
there have the past thousands of GRR miles and now accumilating Aero miles.
Anytime comparisons/evaluations are made by those with little or no
practical experience with the particular bike, its all opinion and
conjecture not based on long term practical experience. I have wipped up on
a few socked GRR's and have been dusted by a few others. Underneath that
sock and behind the high BB of an Aero or Corsa is most crucial speed
component.

--
Jude....///Bacchetta AERO
St. Michaels and Tilghman Island.. Maryland
Wheel Doctor Cycle and Sports, Inc
1-800-586-6645
"PJ" > wrote in message
om...
> (harryo) wrote in message
>...
> > OK, a couple of you Aero owners have agreed with my assessment that a
> > Corsa should have virtually the same performance potential as an Aero,
> > while weighing only a bit more. Can anyone tell me what a Corsa does
> > weigh? The Bacchetta site doesn't list the weight and I have not seen
> > it published elsewhere. Obviously, it must weigh something between a
> > Strada and an Aero. Not that it really matters to me because I am not
> > a weight weenie anyway, but I am curious.
> >
> > Also, it appears to me that the fixed riser on the Aero can compromise
> > the aerodynamics of the bike, something I have also heard mentioned by
> > a couple of Aero owners. Seat angle seems that to be dependent on the
> > rider to bike fit, particularly the length of one's torso and arms.
> > Once the proper fore and aft seat position is established, the angle
> > of seat layback it limited to the amount of the rider's arm extension.
> > My thought is that the GlideFlex riser on the Corsa would allow one
> > to set the seat angle independently of fore fore and aft seat
> > position, allowing a more aerodynamic rider position while still
> > giving the rider some flexibility in arm positioning. Your thoughts?
> >
> > Harry
>
> Harry
>
> In response to your questions. I own a Strada with the M5 Carbon seat
> as opposed to the fiberglas seat on the Corsa and a pretty light set
> of Velocity Aerohead wheels with American Classic hubs which are a bit
> lighter than the Alex Rims on the Corsa. While I did change out my
> cranks I went with shorter 165 Truvativ cranks versus going with
> lighter 170 FSA carbon cranks. My bike weighs just a bit over 26 lbs
> for the Large frame with pedals and I would guess a Corsa would weigh
> about 26.5 to 27.5lbs. In real life there is probably about a 3.5 to
> 4.0 difference between these bikes and the Aero.
>
> As to which is a cleaner bike, aerodynamically, I think alot depends
> on how one has set up their bike and adjusted the riding position.
> The glidelex does allow more versatility, and does add about a half
> pound of weight, which in and of itself has no practical effect on
> performance.
>
> I think/know that the Aero will have very slightly less drag, all
> things being equal, because of some very minor differences ie fork.
> But in reality alot depends again on how each particular rider has the
> bike set up and the corresponding rider position. All of which then
> takes you back to the engine which is where the real differences will
> show up.
>
> Pat Mc

[EZ Biker :-\)]

Well put Jude. Here's still another tidbit of feedback on my Aero vs. my now
sold GRR Ti. Today I did a metric and ended up with a 19.1 mph overall
average speed. Some of that ride was done in a nice 10+ mile head wind and I
had little problems SLICING through the headwind and moving along the road.
In the 5+ years I rode my GRR Ti I only hit that kind of overall speed
average a few times, at best and that was when I was hanging with some DF
hammer heads.
The other issue I've had with regard to a body-socked Easy Racer is how you
communicate to traffic in that of hand signals. Unless there are some
cutouts on the side of the sock or you have rear turn signals, you're SOL in
trying to let vehicle traffic know, what you are doing. I for one have
always made it a point to use hand signals especially in the traffic I ride
in down here in South Florida. It seems the general consciences is that if
you want to go EXTRA FAST on an Easy Racer bike, you should seriously
consider a body sock. Fine! But on my Aero, I don't need that artificial
(Weighty) air control device to make my Aero go EXTRA FAST and I'm able to
use hand signals in traffic as well.
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)




"Jude T. McGloin" > wrote in message
...
I think that EZ wins the creditabilty war since very few out
> there have the past thousands of GRR miles and now accumilating Aero
miles.

[Tom Sherman]

"EZ Biker :-)" wrote:
> ...
> The other issue I've had with regard to a body-socked Easy Racer is how you
> communicate to traffic in that of hand signals. Unless there are some
> cutouts on the side of the sock or you have rear turn signals, you're SOL in
> trying to let vehicle traffic know, what you are doing....

Most of the socks from FreeForm [1] I have seen have a zippered slit for
signaling turns - I copied this feature on my homemade sock.

[1] Supplier of OEM Easy Racers bodysocks.

Tom Sherman - Near the confluence of the Mississippi and Rock Rivers

[bill g]

I use VRex riser and a very narrow custom Evo type bar.
bill g

---
The little boat gently drifted across the pond exactly the way a bowling
ball wouldn't.

harryo wrote:

> Do you Aero owners not find that if your seat is reclined too much,
> you lose comfortable contact with the handlebars? I look at pictures
> of riders on Aeros and of myself, on my Baron, and can see that the
> maximum reclined seat of a Baron allows a smaller frontal profile,
> therefore an aerodynamic advantage. Have any Aero owners tried a
> different riser setup so they could recline the seat more?
>

[Jude T. McGloin]

EZ,
No doubt that a socked bike can be fast however it has its drawbacks as
you have pointed out. Another experience I had with a socked GRR was having
him blow by me on the flats, get pretty far ahead to only have me cruise by
him on a hill. After a series of hills I never saw him again. Weight is a
issue when climbing. Not only the bike, but the rider too <grin>. I've
dropped 18 lbs.
On yesterday's 83 miler It was quite windy, even into fairly strong
headwinds we were staying in the high teens.
I will be in Florida this winter. Gotta save some traveling money up.

See ya!


--
Jude....///Bacchetta AERO
St. Michaels and Tilghman Island.. Maryland
Wheel Doctor Cycle and Sports, Inc
1-800-586-6645
"EZ Biker :-)" > wrote in message
. net...
> Well put Jude. Here's still another tidbit of feedback on my Aero vs. my
now
> sold GRR Ti. Today I did a metric and ended up with a 19.1 mph overall
> average speed. Some of that ride was done in a nice 10+ mile head wind and
I
> had little problems SLICING through the headwind and moving along the
road.
> In the 5+ years I rode my GRR Ti I only hit that kind of overall speed
> average a few times, at best and that was when I was hanging with some DF
> hammer heads.
> The other issue I've had with regard to a body-socked Easy Racer is how
you
> communicate to traffic in that of hand signals. Unless there are some
> cutouts on the side of the sock or you have rear turn signals, you're SOL
in
> trying to let vehicle traffic know, what you are doing. I for one have
> always made it a point to use hand signals especially in the traffic I
ride
> in down here in South Florida. It seems the general consciences is that if
> you want to go EXTRA FAST on an Easy Racer bike, you should seriously
> consider a body sock. Fine! But on my Aero, I don't need that artificial
> (Weighty) air control device to make my Aero go EXTRA FAST and I'm able to
> use hand signals in traffic as well.
> EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)
>
>
>
>
> "Jude T. McGloin" > wrote in message
> ...
> I think that EZ wins the creditabilty war since very few out
> > there have the past thousands of GRR miles and now accumilating Aero
> miles.
>
>

[Jude T. McGloin]

Hi Bill,
Again its a matter of choice. I still have the original bar and
Superman setup on my Aero. Most people have a problem riding it because of
the arm extension. When I use it as a demo bike I have to raise the seat way
up to accomidate riders, even those with a very similar body proportions as
I. I am very comfortable with my arms fully extended with no elbow bend. So
many questions are asked by people with little or no Bacchetta experience
and all the advice is based on personal preferences. Including mine. As far
as aerodynamics. My bars have no flare and my hand postion is inside my body
and my stem had been cut to allow for minimal leg clearance. I can feel the
hairs on my legs pass under the HB. I see all sorts of set ups on the
Bacchetta's and if it works for the owner it works for me. I rode a Screame
today and my old beloved praying hamster position felt alien and very
twichy.
That said, I think from the pictures I have seen of you on your
Aero and our conservations, you appear to have your seat to pedal distance
at an exterme that in my case would give me achillies tendonitis. As usual
my opinion is "Each to their own"
--
Jude....///Bacchetta AERO
St. Michaels and Tilghman Island.. Maryland
Wheel Doctor Cycle and Sports, Inc
1-800-586-6645
"bill g" > wrote in message
...
> I use VRex riser and a very narrow custom Evo type bar.
> bill g
>
> ---
> The little boat gently drifted across the pond exactly the way a bowling
> ball wouldn't.
>
> harryo wrote:
>
> > Do you Aero owners not find that if your seat is reclined too much,
> > you lose comfortable contact with the handlebars? I look at pictures
> > of riders on Aeros and of myself, on my Baron, and can see that the
> > maximum reclined seat of a Baron allows a smaller frontal profile,
> > therefore an aerodynamic advantage. Have any Aero owners tried a
> > different riser setup so they could recline the seat more?
> >
>

[EZ Biker :-\)]

Jude looking forward to your visit as are a lot of my fellow SFRR group. I
agree that a socked GRR is probably FAST on straights, BUT hills are another
thing. I had no problem doing 18-20 mph with some of the local hammer heads
and it was great, till we came to a slight incline bridge and then my
overall body / bike weight factor kicked in and I got kicked off the choo
choo DF express at that point.
As for my Aero, I still don't feel I have my legs yet, BUT keeping it in the
high 18's to 22 mph, is pretty neat and so far the bridge / pimple hills,
have been NO Problem to climb, at a fairly decent speed. I need to take 2
stem spacers out and then I should be able to recline my seat another notch,
maybe 2 and still be able to see over the handlebars. I'm still at the 7
notch, but my body is beginning to talk to me, that it needs to be at a more
flatter angle.
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)




"Jude T. McGloin" > wrote in message
...
> EZ,
> No doubt that a socked bike can be fast however it has its drawbacks
as
> you have pointed out.

[mike s]

No doubt that a socked bike can be fast however it has its drawbacks
as you have pointed out.


With all due respect to the learned opinions presented above, I think
the question submitted by Harryo was whether the fixed stem of the
Aero is a disadvantage over the adjustable stem of the Corsa (or
Volae I presume) because unless you have the right body type to fit
the Aero appropriately you will have to make adjustments in the seat
to a less aero position in order to reach the handlebars. From there
we got into who is faster, an Aero or a bodysocked GRR. It almost
reminds me of the argument of the boys at the bar regarding who is
"biggest". Makes no difference what the subject is, it always comes
back to that. So, at the risk of being publicly stoned with used
bicycle parts, to all Aero owners, you are the fastest, and to all
bodysocked GRR owners, you are the fastest. To the many out there who
are much more comfortable on their present steeds and because of that
will produce better results than on either of these two sainthood
candidates, since you haven't spoken up, I guess you are not the
fastest. At times like these, I always think back to what my buddy
Dave Balfour says, "There is always someone faster." But, apparently
not if you ride an Aero or a bodysocked GRR. But, back to the
original query, it would seem to me that Harryo is right in his
assumption that if you are plagued with short arms or very long legs,
the fixed stem could be a big disadvantage since in order to adopt the
most comfortable riding position an adjustment in the seat positioning
to a less aerodynamic setting would be necessary, which could well
negate any slight weight disadvantage the Corsa/Volae with the
adjustable stem would have. Is that not a correct assumption to make?

Mike "not an Aero or bodysocked GRR owner but still happy with what he
rides" S.
St. Louis, Mo.

[EZ Biker :-\)]

Mike the IMPORTANT THING is to get the CORRECT size frame that can
accommodate your size, legs, arm reach etc. The Aero does have an adjuster
plate that is attached to the frame, with about 10+ adjustment holes. You
can move the seat front or back and this does allow for you to better tweak
your body, where you can properly reach the fixed front riser. Bacchetta is
also coming out with another Aero type of bike the "Basso" (See STP at BROL
website) that appears to include the adjustable handlebar front riser. So
any small leg / arm reach issues should be solved for those wanting an Aero
style of bike.
AND YES, THERE ARE STILL PLENTY OF CYCLISTS FASTER THEN THIS EZ TURTLE ON
HIS AERO!!! ;-) <Grin>
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)



"mike s" > wrote in message
om...
Harryo is right in his
> assumption that if you are plagued with short arms or very long legs,
> the fixed stem could be a big disadvantage since in order to adopt the
> most comfortable riding position...

[Don]

Mike, Well said. I have never been an "off the rack" fit. One
reason I chose the Giro over a Volae was the Glide Flex adjustment.
That lack of adjustment was a big negative for the Volae as far as I
was concerned. I also like that the bars can be pushed forward for
mounting and dismounting both planned and unplanned.

I think Volae took off the Glide Flex in a desparate attempt to appear
different from a B bike. It also saves weight and cost(which they may
or may not have passed on to the consumer).


I am not sure what the Spaero will be like in the final version. I
think the prototype pic had the Glide Flex stem.


(mike s) wrote in message >...
> No doubt that a socked bike can be fast however it has its drawbacks
> as you have pointed out.
>
>
> With all due respect to the learned opinions presented above, I think
> the question submitted by Harryo was whether the fixed stem of the
> Aero is a disadvantage over the adjustable stem of the Corsa (or
> Volae I presume) because unless you have the right body type to fit
> the Aero appropriately you will have to make adjustments in the seat
> to a less aero position in order to reach the handlebars. From there
> we got into who is faster, an Aero or a bodysocked GRR. It almost
> reminds me of the argument of the boys at the bar regarding who is
> "biggest". Makes no difference what the subject is, it always comes
> back to that. So, at the risk of being publicly stoned with used
> bicycle parts, to all Aero owners, you are the fastest, and to all
> bodysocked GRR owners, you are the fastest. To the many out there who
> are much more comfortable on their present steeds and because of that
> will produce better results than on either of these two sainthood
> candidates, since you haven't spoken up, I guess you are not the
> fastest. At times like these, I always think back to what my buddy
> Dave Balfour says, "There is always someone faster." But, apparently
> not if you ride an Aero or a bodysocked GRR. But, back to the
> original query, it would seem to me that Harryo is right in his
> assumption that if you are plagued with short arms or very long legs,
> the fixed stem could be a big disadvantage since in order to adopt the
> most comfortable riding position an adjustment in the seat positioning
> to a less aerodynamic setting would be necessary, which could well
> negate any slight weight disadvantage the Corsa/Volae with the
> adjustable stem would have. Is that not a correct assumption to make?
>
> Mike "not an Aero or bodysocked GRR owner but still happy with what he
> rides" S.
> St. Louis, Mo.

[Mike]

"EZ Biker :-\)" > wrote in message news:<d_Agb.695815$YN5.566977@sccrnsc01>...
Bacchetta is
> also coming out with another Aero type of bike the "Basso" (See STP at BROL
> website) that appears to include the adjustable handlebar front riser.

The Basso looks like a Barcroft "wannabe". Except, the Barcroft has a
longer wheel base so it should handle a little better at speed. If you
get the Barcroft with the carbon seat, I think it'll weigh about 24 -
25 lbs. I also think it's a lot less expensive!.

Also, does this mean that having 2 big wheels is no big deal!

Just an observation.

Mike

[harryo]

(mike s) wrote in message >...
>
> not if you ride an Aero or a bodysocked GRR. But, back to the
> original query, it would seem to me that Harryo is right in his
> assumption that if you are plagued with short arms or very long legs,
> the fixed stem could be a big disadvantage since in order to adopt the
> most comfortable riding position an adjustment in the seat positioning
> to a less aerodynamic setting would be necessary, which could well
> negate any slight weight disadvantage the Corsa/Volae with the
> adjustable stem would have. Is that not a correct assumption to make?
>

Thanks, Mike. This is exactly what I was getting at but no one seems
to want to address it. By the way, I just got my new RCN and really
enjoyed your article in it. Enjoy your cycling vacation this fall and
maybe later this fall we can get together again somewhere for a ride.

Harry

[EZ Biker :-\)]

Mike I believe (My personal opinion now) the Basso was developed for those
with shorter limbs in mind. Alot of people still like or prefer a two size
wheel setup. I'm not one of them anymore as I'm completely satisfied with
the duel 26 wheel setup.
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)





"Mike" > wrote in message
om...
> "EZ Biker :-\)" > wrote in message
news:<d_Agb.695815$YN5.566977@sccrnsc01>...
> Also, does this mean that having 2 big wheels is no big deal!
>
> Just an observation.
>
> Mike

[PJ]

(Mike) wrote in message >...
> "EZ Biker :-\)" > wrote in message news:<d_Agb.695815$YN5.566977@sccrnsc01>...
> Bacchetta is
> > also coming out with another Aero type of bike the "Basso" (See STP at BROL
> > website) that appears to include the adjustable handlebar front riser.
>
> The Basso looks like a Barcroft "wannabe". Except, the Barcroft has a
> longer wheel base so it should handle a little better at speed. If you
> get the Barcroft with the carbon seat, I think it'll weigh about 24 -
> 25 lbs. I also think it's a lot less expensive!.
>
> Also, does this mean that having 2 big wheels is no big deal!
>
> Just an observation.
>
> Mike

Considering that Mark Colliton had a hand, if not more, in designing
BOTH bikes (not to mention several more SWB bikes that are on the
market)I find it hard to categorize the Basso as a "wannabe".

And no this does not say that having two big wheels is "no big deal".
What it says is, that depending upon the size of the rider, this may
be a better route to go then trying to fit on a bike that is not
properly sized for you.

Pat McShane

[harryo]

bill g > wrote in message >...
> I use VRex riser and a very narrow custom Evo type bar.
>

Thanks, Bill. Was this so you could recline the seat more and still
not lose contact with the bars or was it because you were not
comfortable with the tweener bars and superman riding position?

Harry

[Truestorys]

(harryo) wrote in message >...

>
> Thanks, Mike. This is exactly what I was getting at but no one seems
> to want to address it.

Yea, nobody wants to discuss a non-problem.

[RCPINTO]

(mike s) wrote in message
>...
>>
>> not if you ride an Aero or a bodysocked GRR. But, back to the
>> original query, it would seem to me that Harryo is right in his
>> assumption that if you are plagued with short arms or very long legs,
>> the fixed stem could be a big disadvantage since in order to adopt the
>> most comfortable riding position an adjustment in the seat positioning
>> to a less aerodynamic setting would be necessary, which could well
>> negate any slight weight disadvantage the Corsa/Volae with the
>> adjustable stem would have. Is that not a correct assumption to make?
>>
>
>Thanks, Mike. This is exactly what I was getting at but no one seems
>to want to address it. By the way, I just got my new RCN and really
>enjoyed your article in it. Enjoy your cycling vacation this fall and
>maybe later this fall we can get together again somewhere for a ride.
>
>Harry

Hi Mike, Harry

As the designer of the Aero, I should take the heat on this issue ;<)

I have found after adjusting many riders on similar fixed stem 700C/20" and
dual big wheel Aerocycles since 1995 (almost identical body and arm positions
to all the current Bacchetta bikes) that most will fit without too much
trouble. It will require change from the praying mantis/hampster arm postion
of many current recumbents though.

Those who have trouble adapting to the position or (especially) arm
extension have the option of the GlideFlex stem for their bike. It's a
relatively simple solution that we offer stock on our Giro, Strada, Corsa, and
now Aero Basso models. A small percentage of our Aero customers have wanted or
needed it at this point, but it is available and solves any problem they may
have with the stock setup.

My attempt on the Aero design was to get people in the most aero- but
still street practical- position possible (22-26 degree seat recline and fully
extended arms) which for me has always been the lowest arm frontal area, lowest
steering tiller effect, and best steering control position.

To each his own though, that's what makes the wide choice in recumbents and
options great! Enjoy your bike of choice and get some fun miles in...


Tailwinds
Rich Pinto
Bacchetta Bicycles

[harryo]

(Truestorys) wrote in message >...
> (harryo) wrote in message >...
>
> >
> > Thanks, Mike. This is exactly what I was getting at but no one seems
> > to want to address it.
>
> Yea, nobody wants to discuss a non-problem.

So you are saying that anyone can fit perfectly on an Aero and still
adjust the seat recline as low as they wish, without having problems
reaching the bars. Interesting because I have heard a few Aero owners
claim otherwise. They must be mistaken.

I also find it interesting that some Bacchetta owners can not
participate in an objective discussion about bike setup questions from
interested parties. As an interested party who is considering how a
Bacchetta might fit me, I find it not at all helpful to have Bacchetta
owners blow off my inquiries with responses which imply Bacchettas are
perfect and that is all I need to know. Such responses put me off
from considering a Bacchetta more than they convince me that my
concerns are unfounded and I should just buy one an not worry about
it.

Thanks, again to Rich Pinto for a more objective, knowledgeable
answer.

Harry

[harryo]

(RCPINTO) wrote in message >...
>
> Those who have trouble adapting to the position or (especially) arm
> extension have the option of the GlideFlex stem for their bike. It's a
> relatively simple solution that we offer stock on our Giro, Strada, Corsa, and
> now Aero Basso models. A small percentage of our Aero customers have wanted or
> needed it at this point, but it is available and solves any problem they may
> have with the stock setup.
>
> My attempt on the Aero design was to get people in the most aero- but
> still street practical- position possible (22-26 degree seat recline and fully
> extended arms) which for me has always been the lowest arm frontal area, lowest
> steering tiller effect, and best steering control position.
>

Thanks, Rich. I understand that your desire in the design of the Aero
was for a balance of the factors that you mention. As the owner of an
Optima Baron, which I have ridden for almost all of my riding during
the last 3 years, I have some understanding of aerodynamics, hence my
questions. I know that the lowest seat recline on my Baron gives me
the best aerodynamic profile, on it, and I am perfectly comfortable
with an extreme laid back riding position for the terrain I usually
ride.

I also like to experiment myself, with seat position and recline, to
see what works best for me. This is one of the reasons I believe I
might prefer the GlideFlex stem, plus I am honestly more interested in
the Corsa, than an Aero, for this and some other reasons. A couple
more related questions you might be able to answer are these:

Because the boom length on the big wheeled Bacchettas is fixed and
because reclining the seat to lower angles causes weight distribution
to shift more to the rear wheel, would too low of a seat angle
unweight the front wheel too much and cause handling problems?

Is the difference in frame sizes solely in the length of the boom or
is the wheelbase different? What I'm wondering is if I fall in the
area where either frame would fit me, which it appears they will,
would I be better off with the longer frame if I wished to use the
lower seat angles?

Thanks!

Harry

[Mark Leuck]

"harryo" > wrote in message
om...
> (RCPINTO) wrote in message
>...
>
> Thanks, Rich. I understand that your desire in the design of the Aero
> was for a balance of the factors that you mention. As the owner of an
> Optima Baron, which I have ridden for almost all of my riding during
> the last 3 years, I have some understanding of aerodynamics, hence my
> questions. I know that the lowest seat recline on my Baron gives me
> the best aerodynamic profile, on it, and I am perfectly comfortable
> with an extreme laid back riding position for the terrain I usually
> ride.

I found having the seat all the way down forced me to use the headrest more
which ended up not as comfortable (head vibration?), I now leave it up and
usually don't use the headrest unless I'm stopped

[Truestorys]

(harryo) wrote in message >...

> > Yea, nobody wants to discuss a non-problem.
>
> So you are saying that anyone can fit perfectly on an Aero and still
> adjust the seat recline as low as they wish,

No.

Anyone and everyone is a very large Universe.

But the problem you describe is almost non-existent. A percentage I
would throw at it is maybe 3%. At the most, when I squeeze my brain
really hard to think about it, maybe, maybe 5%. And I feel that
number is too high.

I think the Handle bar thing is more personal choice than the ability
to reach the handlebars. Sure, if you can't reach the bars, you're
not going to ride down the street very far, so you've got to come up
with a different solution.

Before I became an Aero Zealot, I thought this Superman hand position
thing, might be wrong. It was so not like what I had been riding
before. Therefore it was probably not right. But I gave the Aero bars
a chance and now I love them and never going back to my Rans type bar,
that I could pull up to my chest and just rest my arms on. I never
really held onto the bar, just threw my arms over and rode. But
again, I think this boils down to personal choice more than body type.

>> I also find it interesting that some Bacchetta owners can not
participate in an objective discussion<<

Yea, some of those OTHER Bacchetta owners can't. And I feel sorry for
them. <g>

And I never consider for one second that you were considering buying a
Corsa. I thought (how stupid of me) that you had moved from one Aero
bashing post, to a Corsa/Aero bashing post. How could I get that so
wrong?

I don't see a Baron man moving up to such a tall bike. You'd get like
a nose bleed for 3 or 4 weeks if you did that.

Don

[EZ Biker :-\)]

Harry, perhaps you should consider subscribing to the Yahoo Bacchetta Group.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bacchetta_Bikes/

This is a site specifically setup for Bacchetta Owners and wanna be's. WISH
I could be more informative about your requested information, BUT I'm not
really into the Technical aspects of setup, gearing etc. I just like to
plant my FAT As... on my Aero and RIDE! I'm sure there's quite a few at the
Bacchetta Yahoo Site that would LOVE to indulge you with the finer technical
aspects of any kind of Bacchetta bike.
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)




"harryo" > wrote in message
om...
> I also find it interesting that some Bacchetta owners can not
> participate in an objective discussion about bike setup questions from
> interested parties.

[harryo]

(Truestorys) wrote in message >...
>
> But the problem you describe is almost non-existent. A percentage I
> would throw at it is maybe 3%. At the most, when I squeeze my brain
> really hard to think about it, maybe, maybe 5%. And I feel that
> number is too high.

And these numbers come from what source?

> Before I became an Aero Zealot, I thought this Superman hand position
> thing, might be wrong. It was so not like what I had been riding
> before. Therefore it was probably not right. But I gave the Aero bars
> a chance and now I love them and never going back to my Rans type bar,
> that I could pull up to my chest and just rest my arms on. I never
> really held onto the bar, just threw my arms over and rode. But
> again, I think this boils down to personal choice more than body type.

Again, you seem to not grasp what I am actually talking about, which
is not the Superman riding position, but that it appears to me, and
has been confirmed by several other Aero owners, that the recline of
the seat is limited to the point where one loses contact with the
bars, or more simply, the legth of one's arms and/or torso. Rich
Pinto didn't deny this, as you appear to be doing, but explained what
could be done about it when it does happen and why an extreme laid
back seat position may not be desirable in the overall balance of all
setup factors of the bike. I understand this and thank Rich again for
actually giving me some useful information.

> And I never consider for one second that you were considering buying a
> Corsa. I thought (how stupid of me) that you had moved from one Aero
> bashing post, to a Corsa/Aero bashing post. How could I get that so
> wrong?

I'm not sure how you got that so wrong but maybe it is because you
don't seem to be able to look at anything objectively. Could you
please refresh my mind about any Aero bashing that I actually did
because I'm completely unaware of it? I posed a couple of questions I
had about bike setup, which were the result of my own observations and
some more objective Aero owners, and thought it would be possible to
have open and objective discussion about them. Apparently, you feel
any question about an Aero is bashing.

Perhaps, you are referring to my disbelief of instant speed increases
and are still ****ed off about that. I certainly wouldn't term that
as Aero bashing. Perhaps it could be viewed as bashing of some
irrational Aero owners but I would term it more of a question of the
credibility of some Aero owners, something you continue to reinforce.

> I don't see a Baron man moving up to such a tall bike. You'd get like
> a nose bleed for 3 or 4 weeks if you did that.

I appreciate humor as much as anyone, but when I repeatedly attempt to
obtain some usable information and all one does is repeatedly answer
with nonsense, I find it rather tedious.

Harry

[harryo]

"EZ Biker :-\)" > wrote in message news:<bJdhb.527815$Oz4.400724@rwcrnsc54>...
> Harry, perhaps you should consider subscribing to the Yahoo Bacchetta Group.
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bacchetta_Bikes/
>
> This is a site specifically setup for Bacchetta Owners and wanna be's. WISH
> I could be more informative about your requested information, BUT I'm not
> really into the Technical aspects of setup, gearing etc. I just like to
> plant my FAT As... on my Aero and RIDE! I'm sure there's quite a few at the
> Bacchetta Yahoo Site that would LOVE to indulge you with the finer technical
> aspects of any kind of Bacchetta bike.

I have actually been monitoring the Yahoo Bacchetta group and frankly,
I have doubts that I would find any better answers there. Because of
the distinct probability of raising the misguided wrath of some of
those list members, that's all I have to sy about that.

Harry

[harryo]

"Mark Leuck" > wrote in message news:<xJ3hb.708637$YN5.582423@sccrnsc01>...
>
> I found having the seat all the way down forced me to use the headrest more
> which ended up not as comfortable (head vibration?), I now leave it up and
> usually don't use the headrest unless I'm stopped

The first few months that I had my Baron, I experimented with seat
recline and felt the same way. Because of that and the fact that I
believe the upper position might offer the best overall balance of the
same factors that Rich Pinto mentione earlier, I left it in the upper
position. This spring, I lowered the seat completely, determined to
ride enough miles and put enough time on my Baron to be able to make
an objective comparison. I found that after I became accustomed to
the lower position, I found it just as comfortable as the upper
position and didn't use my meck rest any more than before. However, I
found the improvement in aero efficiency to be quite noticeable,
especially when riding at fast speeds into stiff headwinds. I have
left the seat fully reclined since and find it completely comfortable,
faster and more efficient for all the riding that I do.

Harry

[EZ Biker :-\)]

GEEZE Harry, I was merely trying to offer a HELPFUL suggestion as to where
you might be able to get some useful feedback on your sought after
information. BUT you seem to already have dismissed the specific bike group
as useless to your needs. Funny, I subscribe to that group and I've never
seen you post there, with any questions. So honestly, how can you even
arrive at the conclusion, that it's a useless information source, when
you've never have asked it a question? To be perfectly honest, perhaps you
should get over to a LBS, plant your REAR on some bikes, take them for test
rides and draw any conclusions you have, based on your OWN hands on use of
the bike. If you find the bike to your liking, move forward with it; if not,
stay with your present bike and be happy.
EZ Biker :-) Pompano Beach, Fl. (Bacchetta Aero Pilot)


"harryo" > wrote in message
om...
> I have actually been monitoring the Yahoo Bacchetta group and frankly,
> I have doubts that I would find any better answers there. Because of
> the distinct probability of raising the misguided wrath of some of
> those list members, that's all I have to sy about that.
>
> Harry

[Mark Leuck]

"harryo" > wrote in message
om...
> "Mark Leuck" > wrote in message
news:<xJ3hb.708637$YN5.582423@sccrnsc01>...
> >
> > I found having the seat all the way down forced me to use the headrest
more
> > which ended up not as comfortable (head vibration?), I now leave it up
and
> > usually don't use the headrest unless I'm stopped
>
> The first few months that I had my Baron, I experimented with seat
> recline and felt the same way. Because of that and the fact that I
> believe the upper position might offer the best overall balance of the
> same factors that Rich Pinto mentione earlier, I left it in the upper
> position. This spring, I lowered the seat completely, determined to
> ride enough miles and put enough time on my Baron to be able to make
> an objective comparison. I found that after I became accustomed to
> the lower position, I found it just as comfortable as the upper
> position and didn't use my meck rest any more than before. However, I
> found the improvement in aero efficiency to be quite noticeable,
> especially when riding at fast speeds into stiff headwinds. I have
> left the seat fully reclined since and find it completely comfortable,
> faster and more efficient for all the riding that I do.
>
> Harry

Interesting because I always figured the increase in aerodynamics wouldn't
be enough to notice but I'll give it another try and see how I do

Does yours have Aerospoke rims?

[harryo]

"Mark Leuck" > wrote in message news:<6Lshb.726833$uu5.123645@sccrnsc04>...
> "harryo" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I have
> > left the seat fully reclined since and find it completely comfortable,
> > faster and more efficient for all the riding that I do.
> >
> > Harry
>
> Interesting because I always figured the increase in aerodynamics wouldn't
> be enough to notice but I'll give it another try and see how I do
>
> Does yours have Aerospoke rims?

The biggest difference is at higher speeds, 25-30+ mph, although I can
tell a difference whenever I am over 20 mph. Into stiff headwinds the
difference is also readily apparent. I did a 3 day ride in early Sept
where I rode some 10-20 mile stretches at 24-28 mph on good roads,
rolling to slightly hilly terrain and maderate headwinds(8-12 mph).
According to my hrm, I was at 80-85% of my max so I was able to
maintain this pace without going anerobic. One day, I was able to
maintain 20-22 mph into a 20 mph headwind, which varied from
quartering to straight on, at the same 80-85% of max heart rate. I
have not been able to do this consistantly before and I do not believe
my conditioning is signicantly better, as I was 8 lbs over my riding
weight of last year and did not have near as many total miles.

I had the stock wheels with Alesa Explorer rims and SRAM 9 disc hubs
until Sept of this year, when I split the front rim. I upraded with a
wheelset of Velocity Aeroheat rims and DT Swiss Onyx disc hubs built
for me by Mark at Power On Cycling. They are all black and look great
on my yellow Baron. The hubs are very smooth and the Aztec disc
rotors that I used on them are truer than the stock Magura rotors. I
am well pleased with them.

I also replaced my well worn seat pad with one that Mark cut out for
me. The foam he uses is a bit denser, therefore firmer, than the
stock Optima pad and I like it better, too. Actually I would like to
try a pad of the same density foam that Mark has, but 1/2 the
thickness(1") and wonder if I might like that even better.

Harry

[cbb]

Small differences in recline seem to have a pretty big change. I also
found that fully reclining the Baron was much faster. You will also
notice that your shoulders and head is several inches lower which
reduces your frontal area by several dozen square inches.
I think this is why some racing bikes like Monkey Hand and the Cobra
lowracer have extremely reclinded seats.
Craig

"Mark Leuck" > wrote in message news:<6Lshb.726833$uu5.123645@sccrnsc04>...
> "harryo" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > The first few months that I had my Baron, I experimented with seat
> > recline and felt the same way. Because of that and the fact that I
> > believe the upper position might offer the best overall balance of the
> > same factors that Rich Pinto mentione earlier, I left it in the upper
> > position. This spring, I lowered the seat completely, determined to
> > ride enough miles and put enough time on my Baron to be able to make
> > an objective comparison. I found that after I became accustomed to
> > the lower position, I found it just as comfortable as the upper
> > position and didn't use my meck rest any more than before. However, I
> > found the improvement in aero efficiency to be quite noticeable,
> > especially when riding at fast speeds into stiff headwinds. I have
> > left the seat fully reclined since and find it completely comfortable,
> > faster and more efficient for all the riding that I do.
> >
> > Harry
>
> Interesting because I always figured the increase in aerodynamics wouldn't
> be enough to notice but I'll give it another try and see how I do
>
> Does yours have Aerospoke rims?

[Truestorys]

(harryo) wrote in message >...
> (Truestorys) wrote in message >...


>
> Again, you seem to not grasp what I am actually talking about<<


I think Harry, we could repeat this over and over to each other and
neither one of us could see the other guys point of view.

Moving on.........

Don

[RCPINTO]

>
>Thanks, Rich. I understand that your desire in the design of the Aero
>was for a balance of the factors that you mention. As the owner of an
>Optima Baron, which I have ridden for almost all of my riding during
>the last 3 years, I have some understanding of aerodynamics, hence my
>questions. I know that the lowest seat recline on my Baron gives me
>the best aerodynamic profile, on it, and I am perfectly comfortable
>with an extreme laid back riding position for the terrain I usually
>ride.
>
>I also like to experiment myself, with seat position and recline, to
>see what works best for me. This is one of the reasons I believe I
>might prefer the GlideFlex stem, plus I am honestly more interested in
>the Corsa, than an Aero, for this and some other reasons. A couple
>more related questions you might be able to answer are these:
>
>Because the boom length on the big wheeled Bacchettas is fixed and
>because reclining the seat to lower angles causes weight distribution
>to shift more to the rear wheel, would too low of a seat angle
>unweight the front wheel too much and cause handling problems?
>
>Is the difference in frame sizes solely in the length of the boom or
>is the wheelbase different? What I'm wondering is if I fall in the
>area where either frame would fit me, which it appears they will,
>would I be better off with the longer frame if I wished to use the
>lower seat angles?
>
>Thanks!
>

Hi Harry

Sorry for the long delay in response, I've just got back to my email after
the last day of Interbike in Las Vegas.

Like all other facets of recumbents, people are very different in their
preferences of front to rear wheel balance. I tend to like more of a rear
weighted wheel balance on my Aero, although my short legs don't help there.

From measurements I've taken in the past, I think you would be hard
pressed to get less than 38-40 % of the total weight on the front wheel, even
on one of our bikes with a very reclined seat (~20 degrees) and pushed to the
back of its adjustment range. I'll check my wifes medium Giro fully reclined
when I get home to NH, and see what I get for F/R weight balance.

Our wheelbases are all very close to each other, we try to get the road
bike like F/R weight balance that Mark, John and I prefer.

I do beleive that the best thing to do would be to try the Corsa at one of
our dealers, bikes and individual perceptions about handling are so different
from rider to rider.

Hope this helped, I'll try to get those F/R Giro weight distribution
numbers to you when I get home to NH, they might give you some more insight.


Thanks
Rich Pinto
Bacchetta Bicycles

[harryo]

(RCPINTO) wrote in message >...
>
> From measurements I've taken in the past, I think you would be hard
> pressed to get less than 38-40 % of the total weight on the front wheel, even
> on one of our bikes with a very reclined seat (~20 degrees) and pushed to the
> back of its adjustment range. I'll check my wifes medium Giro fully reclined
> when I get home to NH, and see what I get for F/R weight balance.
>
> Our wheelbases are all very close to each other, we try to get the road
> bike like F/R weight balance that Mark, John and I prefer.
>
> I do beleive that the best thing to do would be to try the Corsa at one of
> our dealers, bikes and individual perceptions about handling are so different
> from rider to rider.
>

Thanks again, Rich! I was just curious about the weight distribution
and difference of the two frame sizes. Unfortunately, the only
Bacchetta dealer less than a 2.5 hour drive(one way) from me, doesn't
ever seem to have a Corsa, or Aero in stock, for a test ride. I'm not
sure what the other, more distant dealers have, and I have been too
busy to take time to travel to them anyway. This winter, when I will
have the time, I do plan on finding a Corsa mear enough to try out.

Harry