Vision Crash Causes Jitters

[Fred]

I just received a new Vision R-40 with swb and uss and crashed it at
about 15-20 mph on a downhill near my LBS on the first demo ride. I
didn't have toe clips or straps on, which probably was a big mistake.
The seat was initially set in the rear position, but since I needed to
shorten the distance to the pedals quite a bit, we moved it to the
forward position, then brought the boom back an inch or so. This
avoided having to shorten the chain before I rode it.

I was a little wobbly at low speeds at first, but quickly adjusted and
felt comfortable at low and medium speeds. However at the first hill,
I shifted to the large chainring and the bike started to wobble when I
peddled. I coasted the rest of that hill and the next two I
encountered, figuring I need more practice before pedaling at higher
speeds.

Unfortunately, on the last hill coming back into the village, I
crashed pretty hard, and the shock seems to have caused me to forget
the exact sequence of events. All I remember is feeling unstable, and
applying the brakes in response. I crashed hard on the left side then
was thrown forward onto the pavement on my stomach with the bike
ending up on top of me. After picking myself and bike up and
preparing it to ride again, I noticed that the chain was on the
smallest cog in back, and derailed to the inside of the chainrings in
front.

Upon reflection, I think what may have happened is that upon reaching
the small cog in back, I attempted to shift to the large ring in
front, but clicked the downshift lever instead of the upshift lever.
This would have caused my legs to spin and possibly my feet came off
the pedals or started to come off causing me to instinctively hit the
brakes. For me the brakes where a hair trigger, prone to locking with
very little pressure.

My current bike, that I'm planning on relegating to the basement as an
exercise bike, is a 20 year old lwb Infinity recumbent with uss
operated by cables to the front fork. I've ridden this bike thousands
of miles with nary a fall nor fear of one. I've ridden uprights for
30 years, including Cat III road racing for 3 years, with only 2
crashes. The only near crash I had on my Infinity, was very similar
to what may have happened on the Vision test ride. I was starting
down a hill and shifted the wrong way to my granny instead of to my
large ring. The resulting lurch caused the chain (vary loose at this
point in the small, small configuration) to catch under the rear wheel
and wrap, braking the rear derailleur and dropout, and locking the
rear wheel. I steered the bike to a stop with little effort, and no
fall.

Now I find myself nervous about riding the Vision again. It certainly
is far less stable than my Infinity. I'm sure with practice I'll get
better at the direct, quick steering, and cleats, clips and straps
(which I've always used) should keep my feet on the pedals and my
peddling strokes rounder.

One thing I'm wondering about, is if moving the seat to the forward
position was not a good idea and that stability might improve if it
were moved back and would appreciate any opinions.

Another possibility is converting it to medium wheelbase by using the
manufacturer's kit for this purpose. Does anyone have experience with
the bike's handling in this configuration?

Thanks for getting to this point in the message as I realize its quite
long-winded.

Fred

[S. Delaire \Rotatorrecumbent\]

Check what your weight balance is by using a bathroom scale and a block of
wood the same thickness as the scale.
This procedure requires some help.
Place the scale under one wheel, block of wood under, hold the brakes and
get on the bike as you would ride it. Have your help check the scale. Turn
the bike around, repeat the process. You will also need to have the total
weight for % calculations.
Check your old bike too.
When going downhill the weight shifts forward increasing the load on the
front wheel.
My preference is 40% on the front. Feels safest to me.
Many short wheelbase bikes are over 50% on front. Old Hypercycles were 75%

On fast down hills they were quite the handful, hit the front brakes on
level ground and the rear wheel would lift.


Steve "Speedy" Delaire


Fred wrote:

> I just received a new Vision R-40 with swb and uss and crashed it at
> about 15-20 mph on a downhill near my LBS on the first demo ride. I
> didn't have toe clips or straps on, which probably was a big mistake.
> The seat was initially set in the rear position, but since I needed to
> shorten the distance to the pedals quite a bit, we moved it to the
> forward position, then brought the boom back an inch or so. This
> avoided having to shorten the chain before I rode it.
>
> I was a little wobbly at low speeds at first, but quickly adjusted and
> felt comfortable at low and medium speeds. However at the first hill,
> I shifted to the large chainring and the bike started to wobble when I
> peddled. I coasted the rest of that hill and the next two I
> encountered, figuring I need more practice before pedaling at higher
> speeds.
>
> Unfortunately, on the last hill coming back into the village, I
> crashed pretty hard, and the shock seems to have caused me to forget
> the exact sequence of events. All I remember is feeling unstable, and
> applying the brakes in response. I crashed hard on the left side then
> was thrown forward onto the pavement on my stomach with the bike
> ending up on top of me. After picking myself and bike up and
> preparing it to ride again, I noticed that the chain was on the
> smallest cog in back, and derailed to the inside of the chainrings in
> front.
>
> Upon reflection, I think what may have happened is that upon reaching
> the small cog in back, I attempted to shift to the large ring in
> front, but clicked the downshift lever instead of the upshift lever.
> This would have caused my legs to spin and possibly my feet came off
> the pedals or started to come off causing me to instinctively hit the
> brakes. For me the brakes where a hair trigger, prone to locking with
> very little pressure.
>
> My current bike, that I'm planning on relegating to the basement as an
> exercise bike, is a 20 year old lwb Infinity recumbent with uss
> operated by cables to the front fork. I've ridden this bike thousands
> of miles with nary a fall nor fear of one. I've ridden uprights for
> 30 years, including Cat III road racing for 3 years, with only 2
> crashes. The only near crash I had on my Infinity, was very similar
> to what may have happened on the Vision test ride. I was starting
> down a hill and shifted the wrong way to my granny instead of to my
> large ring. The resulting lurch caused the chain (vary loose at this
> point in the small, small configuration) to catch under the rear wheel
> and wrap, braking the rear derailleur and dropout, and locking the
> rear wheel. I steered the bike to a stop with little effort, and no
> fall.
>
> Now I find myself nervous about riding the Vision again. It certainly
> is far less stable than my Infinity. I'm sure with practice I'll get
> better at the direct, quick steering, and cleats, clips and straps
> (which I've always used) should keep my feet on the pedals and my
> peddling strokes rounder.
>
> One thing I'm wondering about, is if moving the seat to the forward
> position was not a good idea and that stability might improve if it
> were moved back and would appreciate any opinions.
>
> Another possibility is converting it to medium wheelbase by using the
> manufacturer's kit for this purpose. Does anyone have experience with
> the bike's handling in this configuration?
>
> Thanks for getting to this point in the message as I realize its quite
> long-winded.
>
> Fred



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[S. Delaire \Rotatorrecumbent\]

Check what your weight balance is by using a bathroom scale and a block of
wood the same thickness as the scale.
This procedure requires some help.
Place the scale under one wheel, block of wood under, hold the brakes and
get on the bike as you would ride it. Have your help check the scale. Turn
the bike around, repeat the process. You will also need to have the total
weight for % calculations.
Check your old bike too.
When going downhill the weight shifts forward increasing the load on the
front wheel.
My preference is 40% on the front. Feels safest to me.
Many short wheelbase bikes are over 50% on front. Old Hypercycles were 75%

On fast down hills they were quite the handful, hit the front brakes on
level ground and the rear wheel would lift.


Steve "Speedy" Delaire


Fred wrote:

> I just received a new Vision R-40 with swb and uss and crashed it at
> about 15-20 mph on a downhill near my LBS on the first demo ride. I
> didn't have toe clips or straps on, which probably was a big mistake.
> The seat was initially set in the rear position, but since I needed to
> shorten the distance to the pedals quite a bit, we moved it to the
> forward position, then brought the boom back an inch or so. This
> avoided having to shorten the chain before I rode it.
>
> I was a little wobbly at low speeds at first, but quickly adjusted and
> felt comfortable at low and medium speeds. However at the first hill,
> I shifted to the large chainring and the bike started to wobble when I
> peddled. I coasted the rest of that hill and the next two I
> encountered, figuring I need more practice before pedaling at higher
> speeds.
>
> Unfortunately, on the last hill coming back into the village, I
> crashed pretty hard, and the shock seems to have caused me to forget
> the exact sequence of events. All I remember is feeling unstable, and
> applying the brakes in response. I crashed hard on the left side then
> was thrown forward onto the pavement on my stomach with the bike
> ending up on top of me. After picking myself and bike up and
> preparing it to ride again, I noticed that the chain was on the
> smallest cog in back, and derailed to the inside of the chainrings in
> front.
>
> Upon reflection, I think what may have happened is that upon reaching
> the small cog in back, I attempted to shift to the large ring in
> front, but clicked the downshift lever instead of the upshift lever.
> This would have caused my legs to spin and possibly my feet came off
> the pedals or started to come off causing me to instinctively hit the
> brakes. For me the brakes where a hair trigger, prone to locking with
> very little pressure.
>
> My current bike, that I'm planning on relegating to the basement as an
> exercise bike, is a 20 year old lwb Infinity recumbent with uss
> operated by cables to the front fork. I've ridden this bike thousands
> of miles with nary a fall nor fear of one. I've ridden uprights for
> 30 years, including Cat III road racing for 3 years, with only 2
> crashes. The only near crash I had on my Infinity, was very similar
> to what may have happened on the Vision test ride. I was starting
> down a hill and shifted the wrong way to my granny instead of to my
> large ring. The resulting lurch caused the chain (vary loose at this
> point in the small, small configuration) to catch under the rear wheel
> and wrap, braking the rear derailleur and dropout, and locking the
> rear wheel. I steered the bike to a stop with little effort, and no
> fall.
>
> Now I find myself nervous about riding the Vision again. It certainly
> is far less stable than my Infinity. I'm sure with practice I'll get
> better at the direct, quick steering, and cleats, clips and straps
> (which I've always used) should keep my feet on the pedals and my
> peddling strokes rounder.
>
> One thing I'm wondering about, is if moving the seat to the forward
> position was not a good idea and that stability might improve if it
> were moved back and would appreciate any opinions.
>
> Another possibility is converting it to medium wheelbase by using the
> manufacturer's kit for this purpose. Does anyone have experience with
> the bike's handling in this configuration?
>
> Thanks for getting to this point in the message as I realize its quite
> long-winded.
>
> Fred



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http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

[tom]

(Fred) wrote in message >...
> I just received a new Vision R-40 with swb and uss and crashed it at
> about 15-20 mph on a downhill near my LBS on the first demo ride. I
> didn't have toe clips or straps on, which probably was a big mistake.
> The seat was initially set in the rear position, but since I needed to
> shorten the distance to the pedals quite a bit, we moved it to the
> forward position, then brought the boom back an inch or so. This
> avoided having to shorten the chain before I rode it.
>
> I was a little wobbly at low speeds at first, but quickly adjusted and
> felt comfortable at low and medium speeds. However at the first hill,
> I shifted to the large chainring and the bike started to wobble when I
> peddled. I coasted the rest of that hill and the next two I
> encountered, figuring I need more practice before pedaling at higher
> speeds.
>
> Unfortunately, on the last hill coming back into the village, I
> crashed pretty hard, and the shock seems to have caused me to forget
> the exact sequence of events. All I remember is feeling unstable, and
> applying the brakes in response. I crashed hard on the left side then
> was thrown forward onto the pavement on my stomach with the bike
> ending up on top of me. After picking myself and bike up and
> preparing it to ride again, I noticed that the chain was on the
> smallest cog in back, and derailed to the inside of the chainrings in
> front.
>
> Upon reflection, I think what may have happened is that upon reaching
> the small cog in back, I attempted to shift to the large ring in
> front, but clicked the downshift lever instead of the upshift lever.
> This would have caused my legs to spin and possibly my feet came off
> the pedals or started to come off causing me to instinctively hit the
> brakes. For me the brakes where a hair trigger, prone to locking with
> very little pressure.
>
> My current bike, that I'm planning on relegating to the basement as an
> exercise bike, is a 20 year old lwb Infinity recumbent with uss
> operated by cables to the front fork. I've ridden this bike thousands
> of miles with nary a fall nor fear of one. I've ridden uprights for
> 30 years, including Cat III road racing for 3 years, with only 2
> crashes. The only near crash I had on my Infinity, was very similar
> to what may have happened on the Vision test ride. I was starting
> down a hill and shifted the wrong way to my granny instead of to my
> large ring. The resulting lurch caused the chain (vary loose at this
> point in the small, small configuration) to catch under the rear wheel
> and wrap, braking the rear derailleur and dropout, and locking the
> rear wheel. I steered the bike to a stop with little effort, and no
> fall.
>
> Now I find myself nervous about riding the Vision again. It certainly
> is far less stable than my Infinity. I'm sure with practice I'll get
> better at the direct, quick steering, and cleats, clips and straps
> (which I've always used) should keep my feet on the pedals and my
> peddling strokes rounder.
>
> One thing I'm wondering about, is if moving the seat to the forward
> position was not a good idea and that stability might improve if it
> were moved back and would appreciate any opinions.
>
> Another possibility is converting it to medium wheelbase by using the
> manufacturer's kit for this purpose. Does anyone have experience with
> the bike's handling in this configuration?
>
> Thanks for getting to this point in the message as I realize its quite
> long-winded.
>
> Fred


Hi,

I have a R40 Uss.

I have ridden down many hills in the three years i've had this bike and
at no time had a shaking problem in fact I found this bike gets steadier
the faster I go, My fastest speed so far has been 39 mpg.

I also have a R50 oss with a Mueller fairing, this bike is not as steady
at high speed, I tend to chicken out at 32 mpg because of the vibration.

Upon further thought both bikes have Ballistic forks on 20" wheels maybe
the R50 fork is set too light or heavy, I don't know the answer but I will
have to play with the settings to see if I am right.

Hope this info helps.

Tom H

ps does your bike have a shock fork ? if so what kind?

[tom]

(Fred) wrote in message >...
> I just received a new Vision R-40 with swb and uss and crashed it at
> about 15-20 mph on a downhill near my LBS on the first demo ride. I
> didn't have toe clips or straps on, which probably was a big mistake.
> The seat was initially set in the rear position, but since I needed to
> shorten the distance to the pedals quite a bit, we moved it to the
> forward position, then brought the boom back an inch or so. This
> avoided having to shorten the chain before I rode it.
>
> I was a little wobbly at low speeds at first, but quickly adjusted and
> felt comfortable at low and medium speeds. However at the first hill,
> I shifted to the large chainring and the bike started to wobble when I
> peddled. I coasted the rest of that hill and the next two I
> encountered, figuring I need more practice before pedaling at higher
> speeds.
>
> Unfortunately, on the last hill coming back into the village, I
> crashed pretty hard, and the shock seems to have caused me to forget
> the exact sequence of events. All I remember is feeling unstable, and
> applying the brakes in response. I crashed hard on the left side then
> was thrown forward onto the pavement on my stomach with the bike
> ending up on top of me. After picking myself and bike up and
> preparing it to ride again, I noticed that the chain was on the
> smallest cog in back, and derailed to the inside of the chainrings in
> front.
>
> Upon reflection, I think what may have happened is that upon reaching
> the small cog in back, I attempted to shift to the large ring in
> front, but clicked the downshift lever instead of the upshift lever.
> This would have caused my legs to spin and possibly my feet came off
> the pedals or started to come off causing me to instinctively hit the
> brakes. For me the brakes where a hair trigger, prone to locking with
> very little pressure.
>
> My current bike, that I'm planning on relegating to the basement as an
> exercise bike, is a 20 year old lwb Infinity recumbent with uss
> operated by cables to the front fork. I've ridden this bike thousands
> of miles with nary a fall nor fear of one. I've ridden uprights for
> 30 years, including Cat III road racing for 3 years, with only 2
> crashes. The only near crash I had on my Infinity, was very similar
> to what may have happened on the Vision test ride. I was starting
> down a hill and shifted the wrong way to my granny instead of to my
> large ring. The resulting lurch caused the chain (vary loose at this
> point in the small, small configuration) to catch under the rear wheel
> and wrap, braking the rear derailleur and dropout, and locking the
> rear wheel. I steered the bike to a stop with little effort, and no
> fall.
>
> Now I find myself nervous about riding the Vision again. It certainly
> is far less stable than my Infinity. I'm sure with practice I'll get
> better at the direct, quick steering, and cleats, clips and straps
> (which I've always used) should keep my feet on the pedals and my
> peddling strokes rounder.
>
> One thing I'm wondering about, is if moving the seat to the forward
> position was not a good idea and that stability might improve if it
> were moved back and would appreciate any opinions.
>
> Another possibility is converting it to medium wheelbase by using the
> manufacturer's kit for this purpose. Does anyone have experience with
> the bike's handling in this configuration?
>
> Thanks for getting to this point in the message as I realize its quite
> long-winded.
>
> Fred


Hi,

I have a R40 Uss.

I have ridden down many hills in the three years i've had this bike and
at no time had a shaking problem in fact I found this bike gets steadier
the faster I go, My fastest speed so far has been 39 mpg.

I also have a R50 oss with a Mueller fairing, this bike is not as steady
at high speed, I tend to chicken out at 32 mpg because of the vibration.

Upon further thought both bikes have Ballistic forks on 20" wheels maybe
the R50 fork is set too light or heavy, I don't know the answer but I will
have to play with the settings to see if I am right.

Hope this info helps.

Tom H

ps does your bike have a shock fork ? if so what kind?

[Mark Leuck]

"Fred" > wrote in message
om...
> I just received a new Vision R-40 with swb and uss and crashed it at
> about 15-20 mph on a downhill near my LBS on the first demo ride. I
> didn't have toe clips or straps on, which probably was a big mistake.
> The seat was initially set in the rear position, but since I needed to
> shorten the distance to the pedals quite a bit, we moved it to the
> forward position, then brought the boom back an inch or so. This
> avoided having to shorten the chain before I rode it.
>
> I was a little wobbly at low speeds at first, but quickly adjusted and
> felt comfortable at low and medium speeds. However at the first hill,
> I shifted to the large chainring and the bike started to wobble when I
> peddled. I coasted the rest of that hill and the next two I
> encountered, figuring I need more practice before pedaling at higher
> speeds.
>
> Unfortunately, on the last hill coming back into the village, I
> crashed pretty hard, and the shock seems to have caused me to forget
> the exact sequence of events. All I remember is feeling unstable, and
> applying the brakes in response. I crashed hard on the left side then
> was thrown forward onto the pavement on my stomach with the bike
> ending up on top of me. After picking myself and bike up and
> preparing it to ride again, I noticed that the chain was on the
> smallest cog in back, and derailed to the inside of the chainrings in
> front.
>
> Upon reflection, I think what may have happened is that upon reaching
> the small cog in back, I attempted to shift to the large ring in
> front, but clicked the downshift lever instead of the upshift lever.
> This would have caused my legs to spin and possibly my feet came off
> the pedals or started to come off causing me to instinctively hit the
> brakes. For me the brakes where a hair trigger, prone to locking with
> very little pressure.
>
> My current bike, that I'm planning on relegating to the basement as an
> exercise bike, is a 20 year old lwb Infinity recumbent with uss
> operated by cables to the front fork. I've ridden this bike thousands
> of miles with nary a fall nor fear of one. I've ridden uprights for
> 30 years, including Cat III road racing for 3 years, with only 2
> crashes. The only near crash I had on my Infinity, was very similar
> to what may have happened on the Vision test ride. I was starting
> down a hill and shifted the wrong way to my granny instead of to my
> large ring. The resulting lurch caused the chain (vary loose at this
> point in the small, small configuration) to catch under the rear wheel
> and wrap, braking the rear derailleur and dropout, and locking the
> rear wheel. I steered the bike to a stop with little effort, and no
> fall.
>
> Now I find myself nervous about riding the Vision again. It certainly
> is far less stable than my Infinity. I'm sure with practice I'll get
> better at the direct, quick steering, and cleats, clips and straps
> (which I've always used) should keep my feet on the pedals and my
> peddling strokes rounder.
>
> One thing I'm wondering about, is if moving the seat to the forward
> position was not a good idea and that stability might improve if it
> were moved back and would appreciate any opinions.
>
> Another possibility is converting it to medium wheelbase by using the
> manufacturer's kit for this purpose. Does anyone have experience with
> the bike's handling in this configuration?
>
> Thanks for getting to this point in the message as I realize its quite
> long-winded.
>
> Fred

I have an R50 and haven't felt that, I think the fastest I've been on it is
in the mid 40's

[Mark Leuck]

"Fred" > wrote in message
om...
> I just received a new Vision R-40 with swb and uss and crashed it at
> about 15-20 mph on a downhill near my LBS on the first demo ride. I
> didn't have toe clips or straps on, which probably was a big mistake.
> The seat was initially set in the rear position, but since I needed to
> shorten the distance to the pedals quite a bit, we moved it to the
> forward position, then brought the boom back an inch or so. This
> avoided having to shorten the chain before I rode it.
>
> I was a little wobbly at low speeds at first, but quickly adjusted and
> felt comfortable at low and medium speeds. However at the first hill,
> I shifted to the large chainring and the bike started to wobble when I
> peddled. I coasted the rest of that hill and the next two I
> encountered, figuring I need more practice before pedaling at higher
> speeds.
>
> Unfortunately, on the last hill coming back into the village, I
> crashed pretty hard, and the shock seems to have caused me to forget
> the exact sequence of events. All I remember is feeling unstable, and
> applying the brakes in response. I crashed hard on the left side then
> was thrown forward onto the pavement on my stomach with the bike
> ending up on top of me. After picking myself and bike up and
> preparing it to ride again, I noticed that the chain was on the
> smallest cog in back, and derailed to the inside of the chainrings in
> front.
>
> Upon reflection, I think what may have happened is that upon reaching
> the small cog in back, I attempted to shift to the large ring in
> front, but clicked the downshift lever instead of the upshift lever.
> This would have caused my legs to spin and possibly my feet came off
> the pedals or started to come off causing me to instinctively hit the
> brakes. For me the brakes where a hair trigger, prone to locking with
> very little pressure.
>
> My current bike, that I'm planning on relegating to the basement as an
> exercise bike, is a 20 year old lwb Infinity recumbent with uss
> operated by cables to the front fork. I've ridden this bike thousands
> of miles with nary a fall nor fear of one. I've ridden uprights for
> 30 years, including Cat III road racing for 3 years, with only 2
> crashes. The only near crash I had on my Infinity, was very similar
> to what may have happened on the Vision test ride. I was starting
> down a hill and shifted the wrong way to my granny instead of to my
> large ring. The resulting lurch caused the chain (vary loose at this
> point in the small, small configuration) to catch under the rear wheel
> and wrap, braking the rear derailleur and dropout, and locking the
> rear wheel. I steered the bike to a stop with little effort, and no
> fall.
>
> Now I find myself nervous about riding the Vision again. It certainly
> is far less stable than my Infinity. I'm sure with practice I'll get
> better at the direct, quick steering, and cleats, clips and straps
> (which I've always used) should keep my feet on the pedals and my
> peddling strokes rounder.
>
> One thing I'm wondering about, is if moving the seat to the forward
> position was not a good idea and that stability might improve if it
> were moved back and would appreciate any opinions.
>
> Another possibility is converting it to medium wheelbase by using the
> manufacturer's kit for this purpose. Does anyone have experience with
> the bike's handling in this configuration?
>
> Thanks for getting to this point in the message as I realize its quite
> long-winded.
>
> Fred

I have an R50 and haven't felt that, I think the fastest I've been on it is
in the mid 40's

[Scott]

Hi, Fred: Crashes are spooky. I'm glad to hear you didn't get hurt (I
assume!). Short wheel base bents do take some getting used to. I
rode several hundred miles on my dear Haluzak before I was "solid" and
could take any hill as fast as I wanted--though I was always aware of
the sometimes delicate balance required at speed. I hope to own
another SWB in the future, but for big stability pn big descents, I've
opted for a LWB. I want to tour as well, so I've ordered a Tour Easy
EX. It was a close call between that and the Slipstream by Longbikes,
which might be the perfect replacement for the Infinity. It's a LWB,
USS, and renowned for craftsmanship and superb handling. For what
it's worth, you should gain confidence with time.

Ride safely,

Scott


(Fred) wrote in message >...
> I just received a new Vision R-40 with swb and uss and crashed it at
> about 15-20 mph on a downhill near my LBS on the first demo ride. I
> didn't have toe clips or straps on, which probably was a big mistake.
> The seat was initially set in the rear position, but since I needed to
> shorten the distance to the pedals quite a bit, we moved it to the
> forward position, then brought the boom back an inch or so. This
> avoided having to shorten the chain before I rode it.
>
> I was a little wobbly at low speeds at first, but quickly adjusted and
> felt comfortable at low and medium speeds. However at the first hill,
> I shifted to the large chainring and the bike started to wobble when I
> peddled. I coasted the rest of that hill and the next two I
> encountered, figuring I need more practice before pedaling at higher
> speeds.
>
> Unfortunately, on the last hill coming back into the village, I
> crashed pretty hard, and the shock seems to have caused me to forget
> the exact sequence of events. All I remember is feeling unstable, and
> applying the brakes in response. I crashed hard on the left side then
> was thrown forward onto the pavement on my stomach with the bike
> ending up on top of me. After picking myself and bike up and
> preparing it to ride again, I noticed that the chain was on the
> smallest cog in back, and derailed to the inside of the chainrings in
> front.
>
> Upon reflection, I think what may have happened is that upon reaching
> the small cog in back, I attempted to shift to the large ring in
> front, but clicked the downshift lever instead of the upshift lever.
> This would have caused my legs to spin and possibly my feet came off
> the pedals or started to come off causing me to instinctively hit the
> brakes. For me the brakes where a hair trigger, prone to locking with
> very little pressure.
>
> My current bike, that I'm planning on relegating to the basement as an
> exercise bike, is a 20 year old lwb Infinity recumbent with uss
> operated by cables to the front fork. I've ridden this bike thousands
> of miles with nary a fall nor fear of one. I've ridden uprights for
> 30 years, including Cat III road racing for 3 years, with only 2
> crashes. The only near crash I had on my Infinity, was very similar
> to what may have happened on the Vision test ride. I was starting
> down a hill and shifted the wrong way to my granny instead of to my
> large ring. The resulting lurch caused the chain (vary loose at this
> point in the small, small configuration) to catch under the rear wheel
> and wrap, braking the rear derailleur and dropout, and locking the
> rear wheel. I steered the bike to a stop with little effort, and no
> fall.
>
> Now I find myself nervous about riding the Vision again. It certainly
> is far less stable than my Infinity. I'm sure with practice I'll get
> better at the direct, quick steering, and cleats, clips and straps
> (which I've always used) should keep my feet on the pedals and my
> peddling strokes rounder.
>
> One thing I'm wondering about, is if moving the seat to the forward
> position was not a good idea and that stability might improve if it
> were moved back and would appreciate any opinions.
>
> Another possibility is converting it to medium wheelbase by using the
> manufacturer's kit for this purpose. Does anyone have experience with
> the bike's handling in this configuration?
>
> Thanks for getting to this point in the message as I realize its quite
> long-winded.
>
> Fred

[Scott]

Hi, Fred: Crashes are spooky. I'm glad to hear you didn't get hurt (I
assume!). Short wheel base bents do take some getting used to. I
rode several hundred miles on my dear Haluzak before I was "solid" and
could take any hill as fast as I wanted--though I was always aware of
the sometimes delicate balance required at speed. I hope to own
another SWB in the future, but for big stability pn big descents, I've
opted for a LWB. I want to tour as well, so I've ordered a Tour Easy
EX. It was a close call between that and the Slipstream by Longbikes,
which might be the perfect replacement for the Infinity. It's a LWB,
USS, and renowned for craftsmanship and superb handling. For what
it's worth, you should gain confidence with time.

Ride safely,

Scott


(Fred) wrote in message >...
> I just received a new Vision R-40 with swb and uss and crashed it at
> about 15-20 mph on a downhill near my LBS on the first demo ride. I
> didn't have toe clips or straps on, which probably was a big mistake.
> The seat was initially set in the rear position, but since I needed to
> shorten the distance to the pedals quite a bit, we moved it to the
> forward position, then brought the boom back an inch or so. This
> avoided having to shorten the chain before I rode it.
>
> I was a little wobbly at low speeds at first, but quickly adjusted and
> felt comfortable at low and medium speeds. However at the first hill,
> I shifted to the large chainring and the bike started to wobble when I
> peddled. I coasted the rest of that hill and the next two I
> encountered, figuring I need more practice before pedaling at higher
> speeds.
>
> Unfortunately, on the last hill coming back into the village, I
> crashed pretty hard, and the shock seems to have caused me to forget
> the exact sequence of events. All I remember is feeling unstable, and
> applying the brakes in response. I crashed hard on the left side then
> was thrown forward onto the pavement on my stomach with the bike
> ending up on top of me. After picking myself and bike up and
> preparing it to ride again, I noticed that the chain was on the
> smallest cog in back, and derailed to the inside of the chainrings in
> front.
>
> Upon reflection, I think what may have happened is that upon reaching
> the small cog in back, I attempted to shift to the large ring in
> front, but clicked the downshift lever instead of the upshift lever.
> This would have caused my legs to spin and possibly my feet came off
> the pedals or started to come off causing me to instinctively hit the
> brakes. For me the brakes where a hair trigger, prone to locking with
> very little pressure.
>
> My current bike, that I'm planning on relegating to the basement as an
> exercise bike, is a 20 year old lwb Infinity recumbent with uss
> operated by cables to the front fork. I've ridden this bike thousands
> of miles with nary a fall nor fear of one. I've ridden uprights for
> 30 years, including Cat III road racing for 3 years, with only 2
> crashes. The only near crash I had on my Infinity, was very similar
> to what may have happened on the Vision test ride. I was starting
> down a hill and shifted the wrong way to my granny instead of to my
> large ring. The resulting lurch caused the chain (vary loose at this
> point in the small, small configuration) to catch under the rear wheel
> and wrap, braking the rear derailleur and dropout, and locking the
> rear wheel. I steered the bike to a stop with little effort, and no
> fall.
>
> Now I find myself nervous about riding the Vision again. It certainly
> is far less stable than my Infinity. I'm sure with practice I'll get
> better at the direct, quick steering, and cleats, clips and straps
> (which I've always used) should keep my feet on the pedals and my
> peddling strokes rounder.
>
> One thing I'm wondering about, is if moving the seat to the forward
> position was not a good idea and that stability might improve if it
> were moved back and would appreciate any opinions.
>
> Another possibility is converting it to medium wheelbase by using the
> manufacturer's kit for this purpose. Does anyone have experience with
> the bike's handling in this configuration?
>
> Thanks for getting to this point in the message as I realize its quite
> long-winded.
>
> Fred

[Jerry Rhodes]

(Fred) wrote in message >...
> I just received a new Vision R-40 with swb and uss and crashed it at
> about 15-20 mph on a downhill near my LBS on the first demo ride.

Fred,

Sorry about the spill. I think that you may be on the wrong side of
the "learning curve" at this point on SWB behavior. I had similar
feelings of impending doom when I first started riding my Barcroft
Dakota. Pedaling down hill would set up a phugoid occillation that
was scary. I was over correcting and making things worse. I finally
started to relax when I rode and the problem went away. I have always
used clipless pedals on high botom bracket bikes.

On my GRR I hit 48.9 on a ride last week-end and it was like riding a
Honda Goldwing. I was too chicken to let off of the brakes and let it
run.

Get back on the "horse" and ride.

Jerry

[Jerry Rhodes]

(Fred) wrote in message >...
> I just received a new Vision R-40 with swb and uss and crashed it at
> about 15-20 mph on a downhill near my LBS on the first demo ride.

Fred,

Sorry about the spill. I think that you may be on the wrong side of
the "learning curve" at this point on SWB behavior. I had similar
feelings of impending doom when I first started riding my Barcroft
Dakota. Pedaling down hill would set up a phugoid occillation that
was scary. I was over correcting and making things worse. I finally
started to relax when I rode and the problem went away. I have always
used clipless pedals on high botom bracket bikes.

On my GRR I hit 48.9 on a ride last week-end and it was like riding a
Honda Goldwing. I was too chicken to let off of the brakes and let it
run.

Get back on the "horse" and ride.

Jerry

[Bill Anton]

Fred,

My R-40 also came with SWB and USS, and frankly I'm surprised to learn of
your unfortunate crash, especially since you have prior experience with an
USS recumbent. When I first got mine (my first recumbent) I found the
steering a little twitchy at low speeds, but the salesperson counseled me to
just relax and keep my shoulders planted on the seatback at all times. I've
found this to be good advice, since the bike gets REALLY twitchy when I try
to lean forward at all. Only spills I've had in 5000 miles have been at
ultra-low speeds, usually when trying to get going from a stop light (how
embarrassing!). Also, low-speed turning radius is somewhat limited with
USS. But at higher speeds (I've been up around 45 before) I've found that
the steering gets more stable. But God help you if you get a water bottle
(or anything else) stuck between the handlebar and the side of the seat...
then you're going down for sure. Get a Platypus instead: much safer.

Bill Anton
2001 Vision R-40 26x26 SWB OSS
Lubbock, TX, USA

"Fred" > wrote in message
om...
> I just received a new Vision R-40 with swb and uss and crashed it at
> about 15-20 mph on a downhill near my LBS on the first demo ride. I
> didn't have toe clips or straps on, which probably was a big mistake.
> The seat was initially set in the rear position, but since I needed to
> shorten the distance to the pedals quite a bit, we moved it to the
> forward position, then brought the boom back an inch or so. This
> avoided having to shorten the chain before I rode it.
>
> I was a little wobbly at low speeds at first, but quickly adjusted and
> felt comfortable at low and medium speeds. However at the first hill,
> I shifted to the large chainring and the bike started to wobble when I
> peddled. I coasted the rest of that hill and the next two I
> encountered, figuring I need more practice before pedaling at higher
> speeds.
>
> Unfortunately, on the last hill coming back into the village, I
> crashed pretty hard, and the shock seems to have caused me to forget
> the exact sequence of events. All I remember is feeling unstable, and
> applying the brakes in response. I crashed hard on the left side then
> was thrown forward onto the pavement on my stomach with the bike
> ending up on top of me. After picking myself and bike up and
> preparing it to ride again, I noticed that the chain was on the
> smallest cog in back, and derailed to the inside of the chainrings in
> front.
>
> Upon reflection, I think what may have happened is that upon reaching
> the small cog in back, I attempted to shift to the large ring in
> front, but clicked the downshift lever instead of the upshift lever.
> This would have caused my legs to spin and possibly my feet came off
> the pedals or started to come off causing me to instinctively hit the
> brakes. For me the brakes where a hair trigger, prone to locking with
> very little pressure.
>
> My current bike, that I'm planning on relegating to the basement as an
> exercise bike, is a 20 year old lwb Infinity recumbent with uss
> operated by cables to the front fork. I've ridden this bike thousands
> of miles with nary a fall nor fear of one. I've ridden uprights for
> 30 years, including Cat III road racing for 3 years, with only 2
> crashes. The only near crash I had on my Infinity, was very similar
> to what may have happened on the Vision test ride. I was starting
> down a hill and shifted the wrong way to my granny instead of to my
> large ring. The resulting lurch caused the chain (vary loose at this
> point in the small, small configuration) to catch under the rear wheel
> and wrap, braking the rear derailleur and dropout, and locking the
> rear wheel. I steered the bike to a stop with little effort, and no
> fall.
>
> Now I find myself nervous about riding the Vision again. It certainly
> is far less stable than my Infinity. I'm sure with practice I'll get
> better at the direct, quick steering, and cleats, clips and straps
> (which I've always used) should keep my feet on the pedals and my
> peddling strokes rounder.
>
> One thing I'm wondering about, is if moving the seat to the forward
> position was not a good idea and that stability might improve if it
> were moved back and would appreciate any opinions.
>
> Another possibility is converting it to medium wheelbase by using the
> manufacturer's kit for this purpose. Does anyone have experience with
> the bike's handling in this configuration?
>
> Thanks for getting to this point in the message as I realize its quite
> long-winded.
>
> Fred

[Bill Anton]

Fred,

My R-40 also came with SWB and USS, and frankly I'm surprised to learn of
your unfortunate crash, especially since you have prior experience with an
USS recumbent. When I first got mine (my first recumbent) I found the
steering a little twitchy at low speeds, but the salesperson counseled me to
just relax and keep my shoulders planted on the seatback at all times. I've
found this to be good advice, since the bike gets REALLY twitchy when I try
to lean forward at all. Only spills I've had in 5000 miles have been at
ultra-low speeds, usually when trying to get going from a stop light (how
embarrassing!). Also, low-speed turning radius is somewhat limited with
USS. But at higher speeds (I've been up around 45 before) I've found that
the steering gets more stable. But God help you if you get a water bottle
(or anything else) stuck between the handlebar and the side of the seat...
then you're going down for sure. Get a Platypus instead: much safer.

Bill Anton
2001 Vision R-40 26x26 SWB OSS
Lubbock, TX, USA

"Fred" > wrote in message
om...
> I just received a new Vision R-40 with swb and uss and crashed it at
> about 15-20 mph on a downhill near my LBS on the first demo ride. I
> didn't have toe clips or straps on, which probably was a big mistake.
> The seat was initially set in the rear position, but since I needed to
> shorten the distance to the pedals quite a bit, we moved it to the
> forward position, then brought the boom back an inch or so. This
> avoided having to shorten the chain before I rode it.
>
> I was a little wobbly at low speeds at first, but quickly adjusted and
> felt comfortable at low and medium speeds. However at the first hill,
> I shifted to the large chainring and the bike started to wobble when I
> peddled. I coasted the rest of that hill and the next two I
> encountered, figuring I need more practice before pedaling at higher
> speeds.
>
> Unfortunately, on the last hill coming back into the village, I
> crashed pretty hard, and the shock seems to have caused me to forget
> the exact sequence of events. All I remember is feeling unstable, and
> applying the brakes in response. I crashed hard on the left side then
> was thrown forward onto the pavement on my stomach with the bike
> ending up on top of me. After picking myself and bike up and
> preparing it to ride again, I noticed that the chain was on the
> smallest cog in back, and derailed to the inside of the chainrings in
> front.
>
> Upon reflection, I think what may have happened is that upon reaching
> the small cog in back, I attempted to shift to the large ring in
> front, but clicked the downshift lever instead of the upshift lever.
> This would have caused my legs to spin and possibly my feet came off
> the pedals or started to come off causing me to instinctively hit the
> brakes. For me the brakes where a hair trigger, prone to locking with
> very little pressure.
>
> My current bike, that I'm planning on relegating to the basement as an
> exercise bike, is a 20 year old lwb Infinity recumbent with uss
> operated by cables to the front fork. I've ridden this bike thousands
> of miles with nary a fall nor fear of one. I've ridden uprights for
> 30 years, including Cat III road racing for 3 years, with only 2
> crashes. The only near crash I had on my Infinity, was very similar
> to what may have happened on the Vision test ride. I was starting
> down a hill and shifted the wrong way to my granny instead of to my
> large ring. The resulting lurch caused the chain (vary loose at this
> point in the small, small configuration) to catch under the rear wheel
> and wrap, braking the rear derailleur and dropout, and locking the
> rear wheel. I steered the bike to a stop with little effort, and no
> fall.
>
> Now I find myself nervous about riding the Vision again. It certainly
> is far less stable than my Infinity. I'm sure with practice I'll get
> better at the direct, quick steering, and cleats, clips and straps
> (which I've always used) should keep my feet on the pedals and my
> peddling strokes rounder.
>
> One thing I'm wondering about, is if moving the seat to the forward
> position was not a good idea and that stability might improve if it
> were moved back and would appreciate any opinions.
>
> Another possibility is converting it to medium wheelbase by using the
> manufacturer's kit for this purpose. Does anyone have experience with
> the bike's handling in this configuration?
>
> Thanks for getting to this point in the message as I realize its quite
> long-winded.
>
> Fred

[Philbert]

Fred,

Sorry to hear about your unexpected encounter with gravity. FWIW, I ride an
older Vision R 42 (sometimes referred to as the "s-frame" version) that's
generally acknowledged as being less directionally stable than the newer
frame design. I've seen speeds of about 40 on it with no unseemly vibration
or oscillation. I rode it USS last year and converted it to OSS this year.
I've found that OSS is marginally more stable (less twitchy), perhaps due to
a longer lever between my hands and the fork. The parts aren't terribly
expensive and the conversion is mechanically straightforward. You've no
doubt heard that its important to maintain a "quiet" upper body while riding
and this is particularly true at higher speeds. Isolate the pedaling motion
to only the parts that need to move and consciously relax your upper body so
that your hands, head, and torso become part of the bike. It'll get
better - stay with it.


"Fred" > wrote in message
om...
> I just received a new Vision R-40 with swb and uss and crashed it at
> about 15-20 mph on a downhill near my LBS on the first demo ride.

[Philbert]

Fred,

Sorry to hear about your unexpected encounter with gravity. FWIW, I ride an
older Vision R 42 (sometimes referred to as the "s-frame" version) that's
generally acknowledged as being less directionally stable than the newer
frame design. I've seen speeds of about 40 on it with no unseemly vibration
or oscillation. I rode it USS last year and converted it to OSS this year.
I've found that OSS is marginally more stable (less twitchy), perhaps due to
a longer lever between my hands and the fork. The parts aren't terribly
expensive and the conversion is mechanically straightforward. You've no
doubt heard that its important to maintain a "quiet" upper body while riding
and this is particularly true at higher speeds. Isolate the pedaling motion
to only the parts that need to move and consciously relax your upper body so
that your hands, head, and torso become part of the bike. It'll get
better - stay with it.


"Fred" > wrote in message
om...
> I just received a new Vision R-40 with swb and uss and crashed it at
> about 15-20 mph on a downhill near my LBS on the first demo ride.