11/24/03 OPEN LETTER TO ROBERT STEIN: SEAT DAMAGE UNRESOLVED SINCE 8/18/03

[[email protected]]

Robert,

I am including jpegs of the seat failure, & paint defect.
Jpeg #11 shows only the most serious paint problem. There are more
that are tiny in comparison.
Jpegs #9 & 10 show the collapse of the left side bolt-hole area.

I'd appreciate the fastest possible response to this, since even with
oversized washers & patching I shortly won't be able to ride.


Dear Michael,

This never happened before (seat failure) and I'm waiting for the
composite expert (subcontractor) to come back from vacation to get a
satisfactory explanation what is wrong with the seat you received. The
carbon seat is supposed to be lighter and stronger at the same time.
My best guess is that they tried to cheat out a layer of carbon hoping
that nothing will go wrong. Please find a way to make a snapshot of
the damage and I'll do my best to provide you with a replacement seat.

The idea sounds reasonably, however, the carbon seat never should have
failed. The only possible damage one would expect is if the seat is
smashed by a heavy stroke of a car or such vehicle, but otherwise it
should remain intact.

About the paint: Looks I really a have a serious problem with the
subcontractor. He claims he did everything as usual and agreed. I have
no reason not to believe you and now I'm not sure how to compensate
you for the problem. As you might have seen, I already removed the
Schwalbe City Marathon tires from the offer list on my site, even
though I received no other complaint. I fear I'll have to remove the
carbon seat and custom paint as well from the offer or look for new
subcontractors.
Lack of images to document the damages makes it harder for me because
it's my word against theirs, I claim there is some damage that never
should have occurred, they say it's not true, and that I'm only trying
to get something out of them...

PS. Sorry for my delayed response, family problems.

Sincerely,
Robert Stein

web: http://www.steintrikes.com

11/24/03
After repeated requests, Mr. Stein claims to be broke, & seeking a
buyer.
I have repeatedly requested Mr. Stein to do his utmost to have his
INDEPENDENT SUBCONTRACTING SEAT MFG. REPLACE A CLEARLY DEFECTIVE SEAT.

This has been met with absolutely no response, and (I trust) is
unacceptable
to all of us who appreciate honorable work & responsible customer
service.

Michael Talley
Talley Trans, Inc.

[[email protected]]

wrote:
: Robert,

: I am including jpegs of the seat failure, & paint defect.
: Jpeg #11 shows only the most serious paint problem. There are more
: that are tiny in comparison.

The paint is not perfect on Steintrikes, small patches can come
off easily etc. This is known to most Stein users I think...

: Jpegs #9 & 10 show the collapse of the left side bolt-hole area.

Can you send those jpegs to incoming at ihpva.org?

: 11/24/03
: After repeated requests, Mr. Stein claims to be broke, & seeking a
: buyer.

Hmm, bad news. Hopefully the business will continue in some form -
the Stein concept is valuable for the tadpole world.

If one could buy plans then one could improve on them and build
them in the Western World (or Taiwan or some nice part of Eastern
Europe). Could increase the price but also solve some quality
issues.

: I have repeatedly requested Mr. Stein to do his utmost to have his
: INDEPENDENT SUBCONTRACTING SEAT MFG. REPLACE A CLEARLY DEFECTIVE SEAT.

Can you communicate with the subcontractor directly?

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/hpv/hpv.html
varis at no spam please iki fi

[Hellbent Rick]

First, I empathize your situation with your seat and paint. However, I
also have a lot of respect for Robert Stein, as he has persevered through
more hardships than we can ever imagine. As for your open letter, it
seals Robert's fate. Therefore, I can only hope that you have been fair in
posting your claims. BTW- I tried his website at www.steintrikes.com and
it appears to be down. Too bad, as Robert had pioneered the value priced
tadpole in Europe. He will be missed. :-(((

Regretfully,

Rick Horwitz


> wrote in message
om...
> Robert,
>
> I am including jpegs of the seat failure, & paint defect.
> Jpeg #11 shows only the most serious paint problem. There are more
> that are tiny in comparison.
> Jpegs #9 & 10 show the collapse of the left side bolt-hole area.
>
> I'd appreciate the fastest possible response to this, since even with
> oversized washers & patching I shortly won't be able to ride.
>
>
> Dear Michael,
>
> This never happened before (seat failure) and I'm waiting for the
> composite expert (subcontractor) to come back from vacation to get a
> satisfactory explanation what is wrong with the seat you received. The
> carbon seat is supposed to be lighter and stronger at the same time.
> My best guess is that they tried to cheat out a layer of carbon hoping
> that nothing will go wrong. Please find a way to make a snapshot of
> the damage and I'll do my best to provide you with a replacement seat.
>
> The idea sounds reasonably, however, the carbon seat never should have
> failed. The only possible damage one would expect is if the seat is
> smashed by a heavy stroke of a car or such vehicle, but otherwise it
> should remain intact.
>
> About the paint: Looks I really a have a serious problem with the
> subcontractor. He claims he did everything as usual and agreed. I have
> no reason not to believe you and now I'm not sure how to compensate
> you for the problem. As you might have seen, I already removed the
> Schwalbe City Marathon tires from the offer list on my site, even
> though I received no other complaint. I fear I'll have to remove the
> carbon seat and custom paint as well from the offer or look for new
> subcontractors.
> Lack of images to document the damages makes it harder for me because
> it's my word against theirs, I claim there is some damage that never
> should have occurred, they say it's not true, and that I'm only trying
> to get something out of them...
>
> PS. Sorry for my delayed response, family problems.
>
> Sincerely,
> Robert Stein
>
> web: http://www.steintrikes.com
>
> 11/24/03
> After repeated requests, Mr. Stein claims to be broke, & seeking a
> buyer.
> I have repeatedly requested Mr. Stein to do his utmost to have his
> INDEPENDENT SUBCONTRACTING SEAT MFG. REPLACE A CLEARLY DEFECTIVE SEAT.
>
> This has been met with absolutely no response, and (I trust) is
> unacceptable
> to all of us who appreciate honorable work & responsible customer
> service.
>
> Michael Talley
> Talley Trans, Inc.

[[email protected]]

With the greatest wishes for Robert & his future, the RoadShark is the
finest HPV I've ever owned in speed, design, fun & comfort.
In unapologetic fairness, it is also the shoddiest in finish: paint
that's peeling off within 2 weeks of purchase, bolts that you could
practically bend bare-handed, tires that seemed to literally shred
within two weeks (appeared to be 'retread' Schwalbes if you could even
call them that), & the defective excuse for a fiberglass M5 knock-off
seat.
Never-the-less I'm still glad I made the buy. I want his seat
sub-contractor to stand up for his work, show good conscience and
integrity and replace his defective seat.
Yours,
MIchael Talley
Talley Trans, Inc.

[[email protected]]

wrote:
: that's peeling off within 2 weeks of purchase, bolts that you could
: practically bend bare-handed, tires that seemed to literally shred
: within two weeks (appeared to be 'retread' Schwalbes if you could even

Maybe they have improved: I didn't notice anything wrong with the
bolts and the tires are quite ok too (Schwalbe Stelvios, obviously
the same stuff you could get from any shop... and the price was
quite a bit cheaper than from ICE if I recall). Some people have
complained about a steering geometry that is a bit screwed up and
about the seat mounting brackets being too weak, but I have had no
problems with either of these.

: call them that), & the defective excuse for a fiberglass M5 knock-off
: seat.

Defective how? IMO the seat could be much stiffer and stronger,
but mine isn't defective, not yet at least.

About the info on Steintrikes going bankrupt: we'd need to confirm
that from a 2nd source, of course. Somehow people seem to be a bit
drawn to jump to rumours about bent makers going bankrupt and cry
wolf. Even bankrupcy doesn't mean the end of production, as
somebody could step up and continue the business. A small company
like Steintrikes could be a good starting point for somebody who
has ambitions about making tadpoles.

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/hpv/hpv.html
varis at no spam please iki fi

[EVSolutions]

IF Robert Stein has truly faded to black tis a sad day for all bent riders
with a 3rd wheel.

Joshua
*****

"Hellbent Rick" > wrote in message
...
> First, I empathize your situation with your seat and paint. However, I
> also have a lot of respect for Robert Stein, as he has persevered through
> more hardships than we can ever imagine. As for your open letter, it
> seals Robert's fate. Therefore, I can only hope that you have been fair
in
> posting your claims. BTW- I tried his website at www.steintrikes.com and
> it appears to be down. Too bad, as Robert had pioneered the value priced
> tadpole in Europe. He will be missed. :-(((
>
> Regretfully,
>
> Rick Horwitz
>
>
> > wrote in message
> om...
> > Robert,
> >
> > I am including jpegs of the seat failure, & paint defect.
> > Jpeg #11 shows only the most serious paint problem. There are more
> > that are tiny in comparison.
> > Jpegs #9 & 10 show the collapse of the left side bolt-hole area.
> >
> > I'd appreciate the fastest possible response to this, since even with
> > oversized washers & patching I shortly won't be able to ride.
> >
> >
> > Dear Michael,
> >
> > This never happened before (seat failure) and I'm waiting for the
> > composite expert (subcontractor) to come back from vacation to get a
> > satisfactory explanation what is wrong with the seat you received. The
> > carbon seat is supposed to be lighter and stronger at the same time.
> > My best guess is that they tried to cheat out a layer of carbon hoping
> > that nothing will go wrong. Please find a way to make a snapshot of
> > the damage and I'll do my best to provide you with a replacement seat.
> >
> > The idea sounds reasonably, however, the carbon seat never should have
> > failed. The only possible damage one would expect is if the seat is
> > smashed by a heavy stroke of a car or such vehicle, but otherwise it
> > should remain intact.
> >
> > About the paint: Looks I really a have a serious problem with the
> > subcontractor. He claims he did everything as usual and agreed. I have
> > no reason not to believe you and now I'm not sure how to compensate
> > you for the problem. As you might have seen, I already removed the
> > Schwalbe City Marathon tires from the offer list on my site, even
> > though I received no other complaint. I fear I'll have to remove the
> > carbon seat and custom paint as well from the offer or look for new
> > subcontractors.
> > Lack of images to document the damages makes it harder for me because
> > it's my word against theirs, I claim there is some damage that never
> > should have occurred, they say it's not true, and that I'm only trying
> > to get something out of them...
> >
> > PS. Sorry for my delayed response, family problems.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Robert Stein
> >
> > web: http://www.steintrikes.com
> >
> > 11/24/03
> > After repeated requests, Mr. Stein claims to be broke, & seeking a
> > buyer.
> > I have repeatedly requested Mr. Stein to do his utmost to have his
> > INDEPENDENT SUBCONTRACTING SEAT MFG. REPLACE A CLEARLY DEFECTIVE SEAT.
> >
> > This has been met with absolutely no response, and (I trust) is
> > unacceptable
> > to all of us who appreciate honorable work & responsible customer
> > service.
> >
> > Michael Talley
> > Talley Trans, Inc.
>
>

[[email protected]]

EVSolutions > wrote:
: IF Robert Stein has truly faded to black tis a sad day for all bent riders
: with a 3rd wheel.

At least the website was up yesterday. If having the website down
means bankrupty then Steintrikes is not bankrupt ;-p :-)

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/hpv/hpv.html
varis at no spam please iki fi

[Hellbent Rick]

Risto,

Yes, I tried it today and it was up and running. I wish Robert all the
best, and hope he can get these small problems sorted out.

Rick Horwitz
> wrote in message
...
> EVSolutions > wrote:
> : IF Robert Stein has truly faded to black tis a sad day for all bent
riders
> : with a 3rd wheel.
>
> At least the website was up yesterday. If having the website down
> means bankrupty then Steintrikes is not bankrupt ;-p :-)
>
> --
> Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/hpv/hpv.html
> varis at no spam please iki fi

[Carol Hague]

Hellbent Rick > wrote:

> Risto,
>
> Yes, I tried it today and it was up and running. I wish Robert all the
> best, and hope he can get these small problems sorted out.

Robert posted to the trikes list today to say that he has not "left the
building".

--
Carol Hague
Westcountry Recumbents
http://www.trikescdrom.com
Feet first on three wheels.

[Hellbent Rick]

Robert has posted a reply concerning the so-called demise of his company and
denies all rumors as such. End of story. I hope Mike gets everything
straightened out with his seat problem.

Rick Horwitz



> wrote in message
om...
> Robert,
>
> I am including jpegs of the seat failure, & paint defect.
> Jpeg #11 shows only the most serious paint problem. There are more
> that are tiny in comparison.
> Jpegs #9 & 10 show the collapse of the left side bolt-hole area.
>
> I'd appreciate the fastest possible response to this, since even with
> oversized washers & patching I shortly won't be able to ride.
>
>
> Dear Michael,
>
> This never happened before (seat failure) and I'm waiting for the
> composite expert (subcontractor) to come back from vacation to get a
> satisfactory explanation what is wrong with the seat you received. The
> carbon seat is supposed to be lighter and stronger at the same time.
> My best guess is that they tried to cheat out a layer of carbon hoping
> that nothing will go wrong. Please find a way to make a snapshot of
> the damage and I'll do my best to provide you with a replacement seat.
>
> The idea sounds reasonably, however, the carbon seat never should have
> failed. The only possible damage one would expect is if the seat is
> smashed by a heavy stroke of a car or such vehicle, but otherwise it
> should remain intact.
>
> About the paint: Looks I really a have a serious problem with the
> subcontractor. He claims he did everything as usual and agreed. I have
> no reason not to believe you and now I'm not sure how to compensate
> you for the problem. As you might have seen, I already removed the
> Schwalbe City Marathon tires from the offer list on my site, even
> though I received no other complaint. I fear I'll have to remove the
> carbon seat and custom paint as well from the offer or look for new
> subcontractors.
> Lack of images to document the damages makes it harder for me because
> it's my word against theirs, I claim there is some damage that never
> should have occurred, they say it's not true, and that I'm only trying
> to get something out of them...
>
> PS. Sorry for my delayed response, family problems.
>
> Sincerely,
> Robert Stein
>
> web: http://www.steintrikes.com
>
> 11/24/03
> After repeated requests, Mr. Stein claims to be broke, & seeking a
> buyer.
> I have repeatedly requested Mr. Stein to do his utmost to have his
> INDEPENDENT SUBCONTRACTING SEAT MFG. REPLACE A CLEARLY DEFECTIVE SEAT.
>
> This has been met with absolutely no response, and (I trust) is
> unacceptable
> to all of us who appreciate honorable work & responsible customer
> service.
>
> Michael Talley
> Talley Trans, Inc.

[Hellbent Rick]

Carol,

Too read his remark on the trike list. Since not all people engage on the
Usenet, I gave Robert a copy of Mike's open letter.


Rick Horwitz
"Carol Hague" > wrote in message
...
> Hellbent Rick > wrote:
>
> > Risto,
> >
> > Yes, I tried it today and it was up and running. I wish Robert all the
> > best, and hope he can get these small problems sorted out.
>
> Robert posted to the trikes list today to say that he has not "left the
> building".
>
> --
> Carol Hague
> Westcountry Recumbents
> http://www.trikescdrom.com
> Feet first on three wheels.