PDA

View Full Version : ARBR has gone downhill


Al Kubeluis
December 9th 03, 12:04 AM
Hello Bikers,
I have practically stopped using arbr because of off topic stuff and
personal attacks and nit picking. OT has almost destroyed arbr.
The attacks on Bryan Ball re his sign off message are another example of
the venom and nit picking of a few on this group.
(Bryan contributes immensely to recumbents and cycling with his
Bentrideronline.)
Ed Dolan started out in good humor to counter liberal biases on arbr,
but he has over done it.
But Ed Dolan is not the only, or even main, OT poster. Tom Sherman, for
one, posts many liberal OT posts.
I'm just plain sick of OT posts. Yes, one filters posts, but is it
worthwhile, especially when there are good alternatives as Bentrideronline
and Yahoo Groups.
There are many here who focus on biking and contribute worthwhile ideas,
humor, and friendship, but these folks are getting drowned in a sea of
politics and personal attacks and nit picking that has nothing to do with
biking.
Those who want to talk politics, go to a politics newsgroup.
Those that want to fight, email duel.
And those that need to show how clever they are, go to a Mensa group.
Try to recall those that you really like and who have left arbr over the
years or who hardly post any more and ask "Why?".
Sincerely,
Al Kubeluis

Porquer Torquer
December 9th 03, 12:57 AM
> Ed Dolan started out in good humor to counter liberal biases on arbr,
> but he has over done it.

Which from the tenor of your missive was OK until the "liberal bias"
just drove him to the brink of sanity!

Puh-leeze.

> Tom Sherman, for one, posts many liberal OT posts.

Horrors! We must find out where Tom lives! Where'd I put my torch and
pitchfork from the good ole brownshirt days?!?!?!



Maybe you should quit trying to be such an uptight control freak and do
what everyone else does--ignore or killfile the obvious flamage and get
on with your life.

Like it or not, unmoderated newsgroups are conversation. And when people
start conversing, the subject matter is going to meander. There's going
to be stuff spilling over the sides and making a mess. Step over the
yucky parts and keep going.

Whining about it sure isn't going to change anything. People have been
carping about OT posts in every newsgroup (except maybe alt.tasteless)
since time began (Jan 1, 1970).

And since this is a recumbent newsgroup, your subject line should read:
"ARBR is really going UPHILL"

Al Kubeluis
December 9th 03, 01:25 AM
PT, Thank you for demonstrating exactly what I was talking about. Al

"Porquer Torquer" > wrote in message
...
> > Ed Dolan started out in good humor to counter liberal biases on
arbr,
> > but he has over done it.
>
> Which from the tenor of your missive was OK until the "liberal bias"
> just drove him to the brink of sanity!
>
> Puh-leeze.
>
> > Tom Sherman, for one, posts many liberal OT posts.
>
> Horrors! We must find out where Tom lives! Where'd I put my torch and
> pitchfork from the good ole brownshirt days?!?!?!
>
>
>
> Maybe you should quit trying to be such an uptight control freak and do
> what everyone else does--ignore or killfile the obvious flamage and get
> on with your life.
>
> Like it or not, unmoderated newsgroups are conversation. And when people
> start conversing, the subject matter is going to meander. There's going
> to be stuff spilling over the sides and making a mess. Step over the
> yucky parts and keep going.
>
> Whining about it sure isn't going to change anything. People have been
> carping about OT posts in every newsgroup (except maybe alt.tasteless)
> since time began (Jan 1, 1970).
>
> And since this is a recumbent newsgroup, your subject line should read:
> "ARBR is really going UPHILL"

Cletus D. Lee
December 9th 03, 02:51 AM
In article >,
says...
> PT, Thank you for demonstrating exactly what I was talking about. Al

About a year ago (Date: 2002-12-02 12:19:15 PST), I made an early New
Years Resolution to not participate in OT inflammatory posts.

http://www.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
&selm=MPG.18557c2e31e13217989701%40News.CIS.DFN.DE

For the most part, I have kept that promise. At the time I made my
resolution, I invited others to join me. IIRC, I got few takers. By
tolerating others irreverent, obscene and bigoted comments, has brought
this NG full circle. Good posters are leaving and what we have left
floating at the top of the cream pitcher are a few turds.

Maybe people like Al and Bryan will drift back, maybe not. Perhaps
others just as valued will come on board and replace these. I hope both
happen. Without quality, this group will atrophy. If you let it be
dominated by a few foul mouthed jerks, ARBR will certainly lose its
mission. Only by speaking out against the foul-mouthed jerks will they
get the message. Feeding their vitriol will only continue the downward
spiral into the sewage pits. It is your choice, you can speak up or you
can leave. If you leave, 'they' win.

I have been here over four years now. I've learned a lot. I've shared a
lot. I've had the chance to put some faces with names. I would like
that to continue. There are a lot of you that I haven't had a chance
to ride with yet. I hope to do that with as many of you as I can.

--
Cletus D. Lee
Bacchetta Giro
Lightning Voyager
http://www.clee.org
- Bellaire, TX USA -

Edward Dolan
December 9th 03, 04:05 AM
"Al Kubeluis" > wrote in message >...

> Hello Bikers,
> I have practically stopped using arbr because of off topic stuff and
> personal attacks and nit picking. OT has almost destroyed arbr.
> The attacks on Bryan Ball re his sign off message are another example of
> the venom and nit picking of a few on this group.
> (Bryan contributes immensely to recumbents and cycling with his
> Bentrideronline.)

I know next to nothing about Mr. Ball. For all I know he is one of the
giants of the earth. But I do know that in his posts to this newsgroup
he has never had a kind word to say about me, so I of course I just
reciprocate the sentiment. What is wrong with that?

> Ed Dolan started out in good humor to counter liberal biases on arbr,
> but he has over done it.
> But Ed Dolan is not the only, or even main, OT poster. Tom Sherman, for
> one, posts many liberal OT posts.

Thanks for being even handed at least. You are one of the few. I have
escalated my rhetoric in response to personal attacks on me from my
liberal adversaries. Politics is not for children. It is serious
business and I am dead serious.

> I'm just plain sick of OT posts. Yes, one filters posts, but is it
> worthwhile, especially when there are good alternatives as Bentrideronline
> and Yahoo Groups.
> There are many here who focus on biking and contribute worthwhile ideas,
> humor, and friendship, but these folks are getting drowned in a sea of
> politics and personal attacks and nit picking that has nothing to do with
> biking.

Don't ever go to a newsgroup for friendship! Even when you think you
have found it, it is an illusion. This is cyberspace and it is for the
exchange of words only. There is reality and then there is the
Internet. Don't ever confuse the two.

> Those who want to talk politics, go to a politics newsgroup.
> Those that want to fight, email duel.
> And those that need to show how clever they are, go to a Mensa group.
> Try to recall those that you really like and who have left arbr over the
> years or who hardly post any more and ask "Why?".

Al, no one can stay on a newsgroup forever. We all of us wear out our
welcomes, some sooner than others. I think 2 years is about right.
Then it is time to move on to something else.

I have noticed a constant change of posters for the short time I have
been here. Of course there is a hard core of regulars. Those seem to
be the ones that are complaining the most. They should probably think
about moving on.

ARBR will always be here and will go on as always. The OT threads will
always just be a small number and easily ignored by those who want to
ignore them. 90% of the threads will be recumbent related topics as
always. And that will more than satisfy most folks.

Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan
December 9th 03, 04:17 AM
Porquer Torquer > wrote in message >...

[...]

> Maybe you should quit trying to be such an uptight control freak and do
> what everyone else does--ignore or killfile the obvious flamage and get
> on with your life.
>
> Like it or not, unmoderated newsgroups are conversation. And when people
> start conversing, the subject matter is going to meander. There's going
> to be stuff spilling over the sides and making a mess. Step over the
> yucky parts and keep going.
>
> Whining about it sure isn't going to change anything. People have been
> carping about OT posts in every newsgroup (except maybe alt.tasteless)
> since time began (Jan 1, 1970).
>
> And since this is a recumbent newsgroup, your subject line should read:
> "ARBR is really going UPHILL"


Porquer Torquer, where have you been all my life? At last someone is
saying something sensible about OT and how human conversation works.
That is all posting is, it is just conversation back and forth between
two individuals that others can get in on whenever and wherever they
want. And then it can branch off into totally unexpected directions
and end up in the oddest of places. Just like in real life! I have
never posted anything that others did not respond to in a way that I
could not have predicted. That is why a newsgroup is endlessly
fascinating.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

derek
December 9th 03, 06:36 AM
Hi Cletus,

I have been reading and posting here since 1998. Since then, I have met
or talked on the phone with dozens of folks here. I have ridden or raced
with a good number of these people, and it has been a pleasure to do so.
It is true that the NG has been significantly "dumbed down" by OT drivel
and many of the quality posters are gone, but then in the old days I
never used to get 250 spam emails a day like I do now either. It seems
that banality is the rule of the day now, and we should all be prepared
to deal with that or leave.

A sure sign that this group has gone to the dogs is the fact that all
the women have been chased off. Or anyone with any level of sensibility
for that matter. I remember the good old days when there were posts
by the likes of Beth, or Marci, or Melanie, and I am sure I am leaving
out others. I miss folks with a good sense of humor like Scott, or
those that have a passion for cycling and broad experience and the
ability to express themselves beautifully like Kent Peterson.

I also remember saars.lists.recumbent and the really good technical
information to be found there before it died. The point I am making is
that the best recumbent posting is no longer going on in this NG - it is
a wasteland now to be scanned periodically but given low priority
because it is so troll infested. Permanently, it seems. The bent bent
posts are to be found at other sources now, which I will not divulge for
obvious reasons.

Cheers,
Derek

Fabrizio Mazzoleni
December 9th 03, 07:29 AM
"Al Kubeluis" > wrote in message >...
> Hello Bikers,
> I have practically stopped using arbr because of off topic stuff and
> personal attacks and nit picking. OT has almost destroyed arbr.
>
I hear you, this place has gone to the dogs now that those lamer
benter types took over and ran out all us euro type roadies.

Gary Mc
December 9th 03, 04:15 PM
Cletus,

I was one that openly chose not to join you in your resolution. I
thought that OTs were still at a workable level. You were right. I
was wrong.

Gary McCarty, Greenspeed GTO, Salt Lake City

Cletus D. Lee > wrote in message >...
>
> About a year ago (Date: 2002-12-02 12:19:15 PST), I made an early New
> Years Resolution to not participate in OT inflammatory posts.
>
>

Jon Meinecke
December 9th 03, 04:21 PM
"Cletus D. Lee" > wrote

> Without quality, this group will atrophy. If you let it be
> dominated by a few foul mouthed jerks, ARBR will certainly lose its
> mission. Only by speaking out against the foul-mouthed jerks will they
> get the message. Feeding their vitriol will only continue the downward
> spiral into the sewage pits. It is your choice, you can speak up or you
> can leave. If you leave, 'they' win.

Yes. Yes.

Those bent on shaping the group with their slanderous, vulgar,
offensive, and abusive (mal)content are clearly revealed for
what they *are* and what they want to be *known for* by
their words. That they seek to see their names as dominant
in the ARBR newsgroup listings is telling.

We can choose to abandon the newsgroup to them in disgust.
Or not.
We can choose to let them "push our buttons".
Or not.

It seems unlikely they will be changed, so we must be.

Take to the newsgroup with a modicum of decorum and
good humor and respect. Don't leave. Post. Post. Post.
Raise the signal level.

Jon Meinecke

Jack Davis
December 9th 03, 04:23 PM
One thing bike riding teaches us is that for every "downhill" there will be
an uphill.....




"Al Kubeluis" > wrote in message
...
> Hello Bikers,
> I have practically stopped using arbr because of off topic stuff and
> personal attacks and nit picking. OT has almost destroyed arbr.
> The attacks on Bryan Ball re his sign off message are another example
of
> the venom and nit picking of a few on this group.
> (Bryan contributes immensely to recumbents and cycling with his
> Bentrideronline.)
> Ed Dolan started out in good humor to counter liberal biases on arbr,
> but he has over done it.
> But Ed Dolan is not the only, or even main, OT poster. Tom Sherman,
for
> one, posts many liberal OT posts.
> I'm just plain sick of OT posts. Yes, one filters posts, but is it
> worthwhile, especially when there are good alternatives as Bentrideronline
> and Yahoo Groups.
> There are many here who focus on biking and contribute worthwhile
ideas,
> humor, and friendship, but these folks are getting drowned in a sea of
> politics and personal attacks and nit picking that has nothing to do with
> biking.
> Those who want to talk politics, go to a politics newsgroup.
> Those that want to fight, email duel.
> And those that need to show how clever they are, go to a Mensa group.
> Try to recall those that you really like and who have left arbr over
the
> years or who hardly post any more and ask "Why?".
> Sincerely,
> Al Kubeluis
>
>

Lars S. Mulford
December 9th 03, 04:45 PM
Howdy folks!

I've been reading this newsgroup for quite some time, but only within the
last few months have I started to contribute posts and whatnot. You know
what works best with this stuff? IGNORE IT.

Filters or no filters, is it REALLY that big a deal to just ignore what you
know is likely to be crap? The offending parties will continue ONLY if they
have an audience. If we collectively QUIT responding to the crap, it will
eventually die down and perhaps even go away. It may take awhile, but time
is on our side with this.

The gray area here is that there are a handful of posters who are equally as
offensive and baiting as some of the more notable examples but they actually
contribute topic related stuff now and again. What I'd say to those is to
grow up. I mean really! What purpose are you serving spouting off in here?
If you want to make some real impact, think globally, act locally. Get
involved in the scene within your own region. You certainly aren't
impressing me by writing tripe in a BIKING NEWSGROUP. When you think about
it, the folks that are doing this are coming off looking like idiots, NOT so
much because of their message (or lack of it) but because of their method of
delivery. You offenders out there have chosen a biking newsgroup to spout
forth? Grow the hell up.

I'll still be here, writing and asking questions about recumbents and
related. I say to those who really are thinking of leaving, please don't.
In the big scheme of things, this is but a minor nuisance. Let the
political idiots and baiters on here be silly all they want. If they've no
audience in which to play on, they'll go bye-bye soon enough.

--
"Sea" ya!
--Lars S. Mulford
"You can find evil anywhere you look.
The question is, why are you looking?"

Mikael Seierup
December 9th 03, 05:04 PM
I'm _not_ trolling here but you sorta forgot to add
"Don't contribute to threads about the sad state of the group
or drama queen farewell threads."
Almost more of these now or maybe I just got all the Dolan/Sherman-
and Love vs. the world-threads killed off.

Yes in a perfect world we would only post about recumbents here
but sadly it isnt a perfect world. Just be happy we are not a target
for spammers. Now thats noise.

These things most appropriately come in cycles. There was one in
the summer of 2000 too. Group didn't selfdestruct then and I doubt it
will now.

M.

Mikael Seierup
December 9th 03, 07:00 PM
"Mikael Seierup" skrev...
> I'm _not_ trolling here but you sorta forgot to add
> "Don't contribute to threads about the sad state of the group
> or drama queen farewell threads."

Sorry. Grumpiness attack when I wrote this.
Still all these threads arent reducing the noise in the group.

M.

Hellbent Rick
December 9th 03, 08:59 PM
It's rather ironic that the off topic subjects are the ones with the longest
threads. Makes you wonder if the subject of recumbents is boring. Perhaps
it's the same old stupid crap regurgitated year after year. How many times
do we have to read about numb feet? Or how about Pedaling techniques or
"What type of outfit should I wear with my stupid looking bent?" Or how
about the age old question that every Rabid Dork ponders at, "Wouldn't I
look cool with a propeller mounted on my stupid helmet?" However, all these
subjects are below my threshold of pain. It's not the people here
expressing their off-topic, bed-wetting political views, it's stupid
subjects such as, " I place a catheter on my penis so that I can relieve
myself without stopping to **** like a 'normal human being'. So who's going
to 'One-up' on that statement and confess, "Well I too have a catheter and
have even made a hole in the bottom of my seat so that I can crap heehee,
good thing I got Planet bike fenders,heeehee." At first glance these
statements sound hilarious, but these people are dead serious!!


R. Horwitz
www.hellbentcycles.com



"Al Kubeluis" > wrote in message
...
> Hello Bikers,
> I have practically stopped using arbr because of off topic stuff and
> personal attacks and nit picking. OT has almost destroyed arbr.
> The attacks on Bryan Ball re his sign off message are another example
of
> the venom and nit picking of a few on this group.
> (Bryan contributes immensely to recumbents and cycling with his
> Bentrideronline.)
> Ed Dolan started out in good humor to counter liberal biases on arbr,
> but he has over done it.
> But Ed Dolan is not the only, or even main, OT poster. Tom Sherman,
for
> one, posts many liberal OT posts.
> I'm just plain sick of OT posts. Yes, one filters posts, but is it
> worthwhile, especially when there are good alternatives as Bentrideronline
> and Yahoo Groups.
> There are many here who focus on biking and contribute worthwhile
ideas,
> humor, and friendship, but these folks are getting drowned in a sea of
> politics and personal attacks and nit picking that has nothing to do with
> biking.
> Those who want to talk politics, go to a politics newsgroup.
> Those that want to fight, email duel.
> And those that need to show how clever they are, go to a Mensa group.
> Try to recall those that you really like and who have left arbr over
the
> years or who hardly post any more and ask "Why?".
> Sincerely,
> Al Kubeluis
>
>

Edward Dolan
December 9th 03, 09:19 PM
"Lars S. Mulford" > wrote in message >...

> Howdy folks!
>
> I've been reading this newsgroup for quite some time, but only within the
> last few months have I started to contribute posts and whatnot. You know
> what works best with this stuff? IGNORE IT.
>
> Filters or no filters, is it REALLY that big a deal to just ignore what you
> know is likely to be crap?

You are quite correct here Lars. Filter are for idiots who can't bear
the thought of ignoring a post. They have got to read it. Of course I
don't blame them when it is one of my posts. I realize I am
irresistible!

> The offending parties will continue ONLY if they
> have an audience. If we collectively QUIT responding to the crap, it will
> eventually die down and perhaps even go away. It may take awhile, but time
> is on our side with this.
>
> The gray area here is that there are a handful of posters who are equally as
> offensive and baiting as some of the more notable examples but they actually
> contribute topic related stuff now and again.

So it is OK with you if some of these idiots post their liberal
agendas as long as they are also posting some recumbent related stuff?
I don't see it that way at all. I can do my rejoinders to any and all
the liberal posts and I do not have to post any recumbent related
stuff in order to justify it. Maybe you should do a bit of growing up!

> What I'd say to those is to
> grow up. I mean really! What purpose are you serving spouting off in here?
> If you want to make some real impact, think globally, act locally. Get
> involved in the scene within your own region. You certainly aren't
> impressing me by writing tripe in a BIKING NEWSGROUP.

I am not bent on impressing anyone, but I am bent on refuting all the
liberal obnoxious posting that goes on here. You will find me a
perfect gentleman on recumbent related stuff (if and when I ever get
around to it) but I am in battle mode when I am contending with
liberals, whom I regard as traitors to this country.

> When you think about
> it, the folks that are doing this are coming off looking like idiots, NOT so
> much because of their message (or lack of it) but because of their method of
> delivery. You offenders out there have chosen a biking newsgroup to spout
> forth? Grow the hell up.

Pay attention to what I am saying , now how I am saying it. Unless you
are a liberal yourself of course. In that case, apply it to yourself
in full measure.

> I'll still be here, writing and asking questions about recumbents and
> related. I say to those who really are thinking of leaving, please don't.

I encourage all those who want to leave to leave. They won't be missed
and there will be others to fill their shoes and to carry on. No one
is indispensable or even important to a newsgroup for heaven's sake.
Try to think of yourself as a cog in a machine and you will have
realized your true importance in the over all scheme of things.

> In the big scheme of things, this is but a minor nuisance. Let the
> political idiots and baiters on here be silly all they want. If they've no
> audience in which to play on, they'll go bye-bye soon enough.

That is what I have been saying all along. But this newsgroup is
replete with anal-obsessive types who are controllers and can't stand
the thought of anyone except themselves having anything to say. I
can't tell you how much I am relishing their frustration.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan
December 9th 03, 09:31 PM
"Jon Meinecke" > wrote in message >...

> "Cletus D. Lee" > wrote
>
> > Without quality, this group will atrophy. If you let it be
> > dominated by a few foul mouthed jerks, ARBR will certainly lose its
> > mission. Only by speaking out against the foul-mouthed jerks will they
> > get the message. Feeding their vitriol will only continue the downward
> > spiral into the sewage pits. It is your choice, you can speak up or you
> > can leave. If you leave, 'they' win.
>
> Yes. Yes.
>
> Those bent on shaping the group with their slanderous, vulgar,
> offensive, and abusive (mal)content are clearly revealed for
> what they *are* and what they want to be *known for* by
> their words. That they seek to see their names as dominant
> in the ARBR newsgroup listings is telling.
>
> We can choose to abandon the newsgroup to them in disgust.
> Or not.
> We can choose to let them "push our buttons".
> Or not.
>
> It seems unlikely they will be changed, so we must be.
>
> Take to the newsgroup with a modicum of decorum and
> good humor and respect. Don't leave. Post. Post. Post.
> Raise the signal level.
>
> Jon Meinecke


Jon, did it ever occur to you that maybe the recumbent related topics
are so boring and dull that no one is paying any attention to them
anymore. Instead, these OT posts, which you so much deplore, seem to
be generating a lot of responses. Why is that I wonder? It can't
possibly be just me, can it?

Buy the way, I always respond to a post in the same manner in which it
is sent. If it is polite, then I am polite; if it is not polite, then
I am not polite. Liberals are known far and wide for being nasty and
vicious. Look in on any of the TV talk shows and you will see what I
mean. Only Colmes is good for being a liberal. The others are beyond
the pale.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan
December 9th 03, 09:38 PM
(Fabrizio Mazzoleni) wrote in message >...

> "Al Kubeluis" > wrote in message >...

> > Hello Bikers,
> > I have practically stopped using arbr because of off topic stuff and
> > personal attacks and nit picking. OT has almost destroyed arbr.
> >
> I hear you, this place has gone to the dogs now that those lamer
> benter types took over and ran out all us euro type roadies.

Damn it, Fab! Get back on this newsgroup! Only you know how to wake up
all the zombies snoring away here. A newsgroup without zest is dead,
and that is the one thing you know how to supply in abundance. Old
Harv will rise to your bait each and every time as will many of the
other idiots residing here. Keep up the good work even though you are
a one note Johnny!

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan
December 9th 03, 10:15 PM
Cletus D. Lee > wrote in message >...

> In article >,
> says...

> > PT, Thank you for demonstrating exactly what I was talking about. Al
>
> About a year ago (Date: 2002-12-02 12:19:15 PST), I made an early New
> Years Resolution to not participate in OT inflammatory posts.
>
> http://www.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
> &selm=MPG.18557c2e31e13217989701%40News.CIS.DFN.DE
>
> For the most part, I have kept that promise. At the time I made my
> resolution, I invited others to join me. IIRC, I got few takers. By
> tolerating others irreverent, obscene and bigoted comments, has brought
> this NG full circle. Good posters are leaving and what we have left
> floating at the top of the cream pitcher are a few turds.
>
> Maybe people like Al and Bryan will drift back, maybe not. Perhaps
> others just as valued will come on board and replace these. I hope both
> happen. Without quality, this group will atrophy. If you let it be
> dominated by a few foul mouthed jerks, ARBR will certainly lose its
> mission. Only by speaking out against the foul-mouthed jerks will they
> get the message. Feeding their vitriol will only continue the downward
> spiral into the sewage pits. It is your choice, you can speak up or you
> can leave. If you leave, 'they' win.
>
> I have been here over four years now. I've learned a lot. I've shared a
> lot. I've had the chance to put some faces with names. I would like
> that to continue. There are a lot of you that I haven't had a chance
> to ride with yet. I hope to do that with as many of you as I can.

Well, doesn't this just about take the cake! The big gun himself, old
Cletus of Houston, Texas has decided to post on what is essentially an
OT thread. Of course, I and many others are in his kill file, but that
doesn't prevent him from thinking he knows what is going on in this
newsgroup. He is the Ostrich-in-Chief who only posts on recumbent
related subjects, and yet here he is deigning to look down on us
peasants and give us the final word on what is what.

Cletus is obviously the lonely sort and likes to make friends via
newsgroups. He is against ever saying anything that would interfere
with that agenda. So of course he is not much for any flaming (except
to me of course) as that is not designed to make friends and influence
people. No, he has found a home here on ARBR and he does not want
anything to change ever.

He was more than happy with all the despicable liberal posting that
went on here before I showed up and I have no doubt he never kill
filed Mr. Sherman. He has most likely not yet kill filed him. That may
be because Mr. Sherman does occasionally post something related to
recumbents, but I have the feeling Cletus reads everything Mr. Sherman
posts to this newsgroup recumbent related or not. They are all
liberals and flock together like birds of a feather. And none of them
have the faintest clue as to what hypocrisy might possibly have to do
with them.

No, old Cletus is not into flaming at all. Of course he has just
called me irreverent, obscene, bigoted, something about turds, foul
mouth jerk, vitriolic, and something about sewage. He is an anal type
of course and so his mind runs to excrement. But old Cletus is given a
free ride by this newsgroup because he is a liberal in his politics
(even though he is from Texas). Now maybe the rest of you begin to
understand where I am coming from and why I give no quarter to these
*******s who call themselves liberals. It is all based on hatred at
first sight.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan
December 9th 03, 10:46 PM
derek > wrote in message >...

[...]

> A sure sign that this group has gone to the dogs is the fact that all
> the women have been chased off. Or anyone with any level of sensibility
> for that matter. I remember the good old days when there were posts
> by the likes of Beth, or Marci, or Melanie, and I am sure I am leaving
> out others. I miss folks with a good sense of humor like Scott, or
> those that have a passion for cycling and broad experience and the
> ability to express themselves beautifully like Kent Peterson.

Good Grief! Who wants any women on this newsgroup? If they know how to
think like men, then OK , but otherwise forget it! I mean, what good
are they? Like Kipling, I prefer a good smoke!

Also, what often passes for a "good sense of humor" is anything but.
Humor is not universal but is one of the most parochial of things. It
should aways be used with great caution. Usually some else's humor is
some else's getting ****ed off at (see my above comment about women
for instance).

> I also remember saars.lists.recumbent and the really good technical
> information to be found there before it died. The point I am making is
> that the best recumbent posting is no longer going on in this NG - it is
> a wasteland now to be scanned periodically but given low priority
> because it is so troll infested. Permanently, it seems. The bent bent
> posts are to be found at other sources now, which I will not divulge for
> obvious reasons.

It is impossible to get any good bent information without an editor
overseeing the entire process. What you are getting is other people's
half-ass opinions for free and that is about what they are worth. This
newsgroup must really have been horrible when you and Cletus were
calling the shots. Now that it has opened up I am glad to see that you
have found another cozy little club elsewhere. And, no, I do not want
to know where you have plopped yourself down. Your new sources for
bent information are probably infested with liberals too and are
exactly the sort of pigsty ARBR was until I came along.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Mr. Anonymous
December 9th 03, 10:58 PM
Yup... The part that ****es me off the most is that there are maybe 10
people on this board that cause 90% of the ****. i.e. OT, flames,
whatever... And what makes it worse, they have driven many high quality,
high profile people off this NG. Almost like they relish the chance to feel
like a "big man" and flame Bryan Ball or Fast Freddy or Matt Weaver or
whomever and drive them off this group forever. I, for one, am ****ed that
there is not more respect in this NG. Can you imagine if everyone treated
each other with respect? What if we had Bryan, Freddy, Matt, maybe even Sam
Whittingham or Damjan Zabovnik participating in this NG? What kind of info
might be gleaned from their minds and experiences? They participate in other
online groups, why aren't they here? Because we have a handfull of
self-rightous assholes who delight in ****ing people off for fun. How cool
would it be to have manufacturers polling this NG for news and ideas? I've
tried several times, to get usefull info and public opinion on upcoming
projects; Such as Calfee's Stilletto, and my EZ-Rider and EZ-Tadpole
designs. Out of 20 responces I'll get maybe 1 or 2 that have any serious and
usefull content. It's a shame really, lots of folks here have been given a
chance to take small part in the creation of a new bicycle and all they can
do is flame away and bet on when and if such a project will be finished. So
freakin' sad, what are you doing on this NG if this is not what you came
here for? So to all you OT posters, flamers, trolls, etc... get a life, give
some respect, maybe this NG could be cool if we treated each other, like,
well, you were standing next to the person you are responding to. Now I'm
being an OT Flamer too! See what happens! :)

December 9th 03, 11:01 PM
Cletus D. Lee > wrote:

: About a year ago (Date: 2002-12-02 12:19:15 PST), I made an early New
: Years Resolution to not participate in OT inflammatory posts.

: http://www.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
: &selm=MPG.18557c2e31e13217989701%40News.CIS.DFN.DE

: For the most part, I have kept that promise. At the time I made my
: resolution, I invited others to join me. IIRC, I got few takers. By

I'm glad that I had the good sense not to join at the time. I
don't like to make vacuous promises :-)

: tolerating others irreverent, obscene and bigoted comments, has brought
: this NG full circle. Good posters are leaving and what we have left
: floating at the top of the cream pitcher are a few turds.

People whine and whine. But nobody comments on the true question!
Should we go moderated or not?

: Maybe people like Al and Bryan will drift back, maybe not. Perhaps
: others just as valued will come on board and replace these. I hope both
: happen. Without quality, this group will atrophy. If you let it be
: dominated by a few foul mouthed jerks, ARBR will certainly lose its
: mission. Only by speaking out against the foul-mouthed jerks will they
: get the message. Feeding their vitriol will only continue the downward
: spiral into the sewage pits. It is your choice, you can speak up or you
: can leave. If you leave, 'they' win.

Does it help? They will interpret it as a personal attack and
"defend" themselves. There is also the old saying "do not feed the
trolls".

About off-topic posts: Sometimes they are a nice read. But this NG
is about recumbents and stuff that is somehow related to them, and
people should never forget that!

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/

December 9th 03, 11:12 PM
Edward Dolan > wrote:

: Buy the way, I always respond to a post in the same manner in which it
: is sent. If it is polite, then I am polite; if it is not polite, then
: I am not polite.

That's a very good recipe for getting flamewars. Also, I see you
responding with personal attacks to posts that don't contain them.
Is this an application of your principle?

: Liberals are known far and wide for being nasty and
: vicious. Look in on any of the TV talk shows and you will see what I
: mean. Only Colmes is good for being a liberal. The others are beyond
: the pale.

That's a good example on people being judged by how they say
things. People randomly tune to a channel and listen to somebody
speak - they will make judgements about this person, never
considering how much reason the person had behind saying something
and behind how he said it. Keep that in mind every time you post,
because every post from you reflects your personal values and
people will make judgements from them.

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/

December 9th 03, 11:44 PM
Wow. At least that was a rather original and perceptive comment :-)

Hellbent Rick > wrote:
: It's rather ironic that the off topic subjects are the ones with the longest
: threads. Makes you wonder if the subject of recumbents is boring. Perhaps
: it's the same old stupid crap regurgitated year after year. How many times
: do we have to read about numb feet? Or how about Pedaling techniques or
: "What type of outfit should I wear with my stupid looking bent?" Or how
: about the age old question that every Rabid Dork ponders at, "Wouldn't I
: look cool with a propeller mounted on my stupid helmet?"

These people should learn to use the Google groups search. Would
we need a FAQ for the NG? Then we could just go "RTFM!!!" whenever
a newbie posts here.

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/

harv
December 10th 03, 12:18 AM
EZ-Tadpole
designs.
"snip

Gabe??

December 10th 03, 12:31 AM
Edward Dolan > wrote:

: Thanks for being even handed at least. You are one of the few. I have
: escalated my rhetoric in response to personal attacks on me from my
: liberal adversaries. Politics is not for children. It is serious
: business and I am dead serious.

This newsgroup is not for politics. Somebody occasionally posting
their political agenda, liberal or not, in a thread with a clear
tendency and maybe even having some relation to benting, might be
tolerated. Constant political or personal campaigning that seeks
to take over every thread one participates in is a different matter.

Consider the case of Mr V. Somebody who values untainted wilderness
might find his ideas interesting. But he is generally considered a
nuisance, and people don't really pay attention to his message. They
just tell him to go away or refute him in abusive turns of speech. (The
best tactic would be to ignore, of course, he wouldn't really listen
either.) Do you think Mr. V is ok? His cause doesn't even matter, it's
just simply wrong what he is doing.

: Don't ever go to a newsgroup for friendship! Even when you think you
: have found it, it is an illusion. This is cyberspace and it is for the
: exchange of words only. There is reality and then there is the
: Internet. Don't ever confuse the two.

Not sound advice, IMHO. Bent riders can be friends online, and
more so IRL. I have found bent riders to be a very nice
international community, like a big family. People will help
others in need and stick together for mutual gain.

If you insult somebody online, you run a double risk because they
might remember that when they meet you IRL.

: Al, no one can stay on a newsgroup forever. We all of us wear out our
: welcomes, some sooner than others. I think 2 years is about right.
: Then it is time to move on to something else.

It should not be so. In reality, people can at least come back
after a few years. I've done that occasionally.

People who are civil, contribute useful stuff or just are inactive
rarely wear out their welcome.

IMO news is the most useful and convenient means for a forum
about a given subject. I could go elsewhere for a subject, but it
would be not the same, even though it might have some slight
advantages over news.

: always just be a small number and easily ignored by those who want to
: ignore them. 90% of the threads will be recumbent related topics as
: always. And that will more than satisfy most folks.

I hope so. I'm afraid of trolls with a persistence to go on for years.
Like Mr. V for example - look what he's done for the off-road group. I
recall very few on-topic threads there, the people who post spend their
energy fighting him. Fortunately this kind of trolls seem to be a very
rare individual.

Somebody with a vicious tongue and a soiled mind will send some
bad ripples through the community, though. I think the general
spirit and athmosphere of one's little chatroom has something to
it, and it should be cultivated.

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/

Edward Dolan
December 10th 03, 02:43 AM
"EVSolutions" > wrote in message >...

> Gee I take a holiday from this News Group and when I return you are talking
> about it self destructing.
>
> Have been living on Yahoo in some "Moderated: Groups and observed that when
> someone goes OT, they get one warning and they do it again and are banned
> for life.
>
> They even address the issue via all the standing members take an on-line
> vote and 51% and your ass is toast for life.
>
> I would have thought that everytime someone is fragged by the group,
> membership would fall, but the opposite happened.
>
> IF this group was Moderated the same way...there would be like 6 active
> members and Lorenzo L. Love would be one of the 6...then self destruction
> would look really good....

LOL! You have sure got that right Joshua! Lorenzo stays on topic no
matter what, even to the point of driving all the rest of us to total
distraction. I must admit I do ramble a lot and then others pick up on
my rambling, and so we are off to the the races yet once again. But I
can't stop from rambling as one fertile thought leads to another - and
I do not feel I have the right to deprive this newsgroup of my
musings. But I am always amazed at what others are going to respond to
in my posts. I wonder, is it that way with you too?

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan
December 10th 03, 04:11 AM
wrote in message >...

> Edward Dolan > wrote:
>
> : Thanks for being even handed at least. You are one of the few. I have
> : escalated my rhetoric in response to personal attacks on me from my
> : liberal adversaries. Politics is not for children. It is serious
> : business and I am dead serious.
>
> This newsgroup is not for politics. Somebody occasionally posting
> their political agenda, liberal or not, in a thread with a clear
> tendency and maybe even having some relation to benting, might be
> tolerated. Constant political or personal campaigning that seeks
> to take over every thread one participates in is a different matter.[...]

Point well taken! These recent threads concerning me are all about
housekeeping, ever the librarian's chief chore. I have decided to let
them go for the time being and see how things are going to settle out.
I will only come out of the wood work for Mr. Sherman, ever my
nemesis. If he will stop his rants, then I will stop mine.

I think maybe I am going to take a New Year's resolution not to be
calling anymore ARBR'ers idiots. I think we have all of us just about
exhausted the name calling. But I will immediately be back for any
egregious violations of the common understanding that is suppose to
prevail here according to you.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Gabriel DeVault
December 10th 03, 04:40 AM
Yeah, um oops, I used a friends 'puter to post that and forgot to change the
name and e-mail, doh!

Fabrizio Mazzoleni
December 10th 03, 06:29 AM
(Edward Dolan) wrote in message >...
>roadies.
>
> Damn it, Fab! Get back on this newsgroup!

Well, I don't think this newsgroup will be around this time next year.

Recumbents have pretty well much dropped off the radar screen. Look at
the mainstream press, they never mention bents:

CycleSport = never
ProCycling = never
Cyclingnews.com = never

If those guys ignore you then you can say you're not out there doing
it!

It's guys like me that get all the public's attention.

derek
December 10th 03, 06:29 AM
Er, right Dolan

If you really have to know, I have taken all of my liberal cohorts with
me over to rec.bicycles.racing. That's rec.bicycles.racing. We finally
have a NG where all posters are treated with mutual respect and honor
for an individual's viewpoints. There are no OT posts there because
they are forbidden. Even though you are have had terrible things said
about you there, I had better not catch you posting to that NG. You are
welcome to post here 20 times a day if you want, but rec.bicycles.racing
is strictly off-limits to YOU. Got it! I REALLY MEAN IT!


> This newsgroup must really have been horrible when you and Cletus were
> calling the shots. Now that it has opened up I am glad to see that you
> have found another cozy little club elsewhere. And, no, I do not want
> to know where you have plopped yourself down. Your new sources for
> bent information are probably infested with liberals too and are
> exactly the sort of pigsty ARBR was until I came along.
>
> Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Rocketman
December 10th 03, 08:11 AM
"Al Kubeluis" > wrote in message
...
> Hello Bikers,
> I have practically stopped using arbr because of off topic stuff and
> personal attacks and nit picking.

Why? Doesn't your newsreader allow you to ignore specific threads? Are
others failing to respond to your posts?

> OT has almost destroyed arbr.

Oh, boo-friggin'-hoo. I see little substantive evidence of your assertion.
There are plenty of new on-topic threads.

> The attacks on Bryan Ball re his sign off message are another example
of
> the venom and nit picking of a few on this group.
> (Bryan contributes immensely to recumbents and cycling with his
> Bentrideronline.)

Yes, Bryan contributes a great deal. His stalker (cough-Ed-cough) is
occasionally humorous; but more often not very funny. Too bad. Bryan
shouldn't take any of it to heart. He knows that all the rest of us
appreciate him. It's not like the whole group is ganging up on him, or
something. If Bryan is hurt by these "attacks", well, I'm sorry about that.
Killfile the ******* and move on, or file suit (yes, the ISP can provide
positive ID). I've been relentlessly harassed, libeled, maligned, lampooned
and stalked in numerous Usenet NG's over the past 14 years; but that's why
we have killfiles. Don't let a few bad apples spoil the whole basket for
you.

> Ed Dolan started out in good humor to counter liberal biases on arbr,
> but he has over done it.

Sorry, but going all the way back to the very first Dolan thread, I failed
to see any humor. The guy is a classic troll with no debating skills, and no
apparent interest in actual give-and-take discussion. He belongs in the
permanent killfile with all other trolls.

> But Ed Dolan is not the only, or even main, OT poster. Tom Sherman,
for
> one, posts many liberal OT posts.

Um, there's your problem. It's not about who is liberal and who isn't, now
is it? I didn't see a sign at the gate to a.r.b.r. that said "no liberals,
please!" Political partisanship is of no concern here; until certain trolls
make it their mission to divide a thread along political lines.

> I'm just plain sick of OT posts.

Delete or ignore them. Killfile the people you don't want to read. Done.

> Yes, one filters posts, but is it
> worthwhile, especially when there are good alternatives as Bentrideronline
> and Yahoo Groups.

LOL! A.R.B.R. (and Usenet in general) kicks Yahoo's sorry butt, for so many
reasons (and all web-based boards, IMO). I can't stand the EZ Board system
that BROL uses. It's slow and very annoying to use. Usenet is the way
online discussions were meant to be - period.

> There are many here who focus on biking and contribute worthwhile
ideas,
> humor, and friendship, but these folks are getting drowned in a sea of
> politics and personal attacks and nit picking that has nothing to do with
> biking.

Overstate much? Look, it's very simple: If you see an "OT" prefix, just
dump it in the bit bucket, and move on. There are plenty of non-OT posts,
aren't there?

> Those who want to talk politics, go to a politics newsgroup.
> Those that want to fight, email duel.

Talk to your boy Ed Dolan about this. He's been in my killfile for a long
time now. A.R.B.R is a better place without him, IMO.

> And those that need to show how clever they are, go to a Mensa group.

Clever people can't help it if they're clever. They're not trying to make
you feel bad. Personally, I love to see clever postings. It would be a shame
if everything was boring, wouldn't it?

> Try to recall those that you really like and who have left arbr over
the
> years or who hardly post any more and ask "Why?".

I don't know. Maybe because they were a bunch of lazy whiners who never
bothered to figure out how to use the DELETE key? It's not the problem that
you and others are making it out to be. Get a newsreader that allows
browsing by thread, not by posting. It will change your whole Outlook (bad
pun ;-) I'm using Outlook Express, which works pretty well, and manages
threads quite easily. Killfiling is a breeze with OE. Takes about 5
seconds, and they're gone forever. I can navigate to a thread of interest to
me within about 10 seconds most of the time. What's the problem? Why the
ceremonious "I'm sick of OT" thread?

Hope you can overcome the minor hassles of threaded news browsing,
killfiling and avoiding well-marked OT threads. It could be *much* worse.
Apparently you haven't spent much time on Usenet, or you'd know about how
bad it can get. This is a picnic by comparison.

Rocketman

Rocketman
December 10th 03, 08:26 AM
"derek" > wrote in message
...
> Er, right Dolan
>
> If you really have to know, I have taken all of my liberal cohorts with
> me over to rec.bicycles.racing. That's rec.bicycles.racing. We finally
> have a NG where all posters are treated with mutual respect and honor
> for an individual's viewpoints. There are no OT posts there because
> they are forbidden. Even though you are have had terrible things said
> about you there, I had better not catch you posting to that NG. You are
> welcome to post here 20 times a day if you want, but rec.bicycles.racing
> is strictly off-limits to YOU. Got it! I REALLY MEAN IT!

Yeah, Ed Dolan. Like Derek, I'm spending most of my time on
rec.bicycles.racing, too, and so is Tom Sherman and other raving
left-wing-fringe arch-liberal commie traitors. But we're incognito, of
course, so you won't be able to tell who we are. Some of us even have girly
pony tails, and advocate same-sex marriage, womens' reproductive rights and
gun control!! (seriously) So don't you *dare* post dozens of OT right-wing
troll rants to rec.bicycles.racing, or you'll wish you hadn't! I'm warning
you, Ed Dolan! I know where you live!

> > This newsgroup must really have been horrible when you and Cletus were
> > calling the shots. Now that it has opened up I am glad to see that you
> > have found another cozy little club elsewhere. And, no, I do not want
> > to know where you have plopped yourself down. Your new sources for
> > bent information are probably infested with liberals too and are
> > exactly the sort of pigsty ARBR was until I came along.

Translation: Too many smart people who could swat down your laughably
unsupportable arguments like so many flies. Be afraid, Ed. Be very afraid.
Did you enjoy alt.impeach.bush? ROTFLMAO!

-Rocketman

Rocketman
December 10th 03, 08:28 AM
"Lars S. Mulford" > wrote in message
...
> Howdy folks!
>
> I've been reading this newsgroup for quite some time, but only within the
> last few months have I started to contribute posts and whatnot. You know
> what works best with this stuff? IGNORE IT.

You got it right, Lars. Thanks buddy, and keep on posting.

Rocketman

Rocketman
December 10th 03, 08:52 AM
"Mr. Anonymous" > wrote in message
. com...
> Yup... The part that ****es me off the most is that there are maybe 10
> people on this board that cause 90% of the ****. i.e. OT, flames,
> whatever... And what makes it worse, they have driven many high quality,
> high profile people off this NG.

The inability to use the "DELETE" key is a more likely culprit.
<sigh>

> Almost like they relish the chance to feel
> like a "big man" and flame Bryan Ball or Fast Freddy or Matt Weaver or
> whomever and drive them off this group forever.

The troll you're referring to is pretty obvious. I don't understand why
Matt, Freddy and Bryan can't just killfile him and move on.

> I, for one, am ****ed that
> there is not more respect in this NG. Can you imagine if everyone treated
> each other with respect?

We need to raise the level of "signal" and drown out the "noise". The cure
for hateful speech is more speech, and more respect. Don't respond to the
trolls, and they'll leave. Works in other NG's, and it will work here, too.

> What if we had Bryan, Freddy, Matt, maybe even Sam
> Whittingham or Damjan Zabovnik participating in this NG? What kind of info
> might be gleaned from their minds and experiences? They participate in
other
> online groups, why aren't they here?

Usenet is losing it's appeal; but I don't think OT's are the reason.

> Because we have a handfull of
> self-rightous assholes who delight in ****ing people off for fun. How cool
> would it be to have manufacturers polling this NG for news and ideas? I've
> tried several times, to get usefull info and public opinion on upcoming
> projects; Such as Calfee's Stilletto, and my EZ-Rider and EZ-Tadpole
> designs. Out of 20 responces I'll get maybe 1 or 2 that have any serious
and
> usefull content.

Sorry to hear about that. I didn't see your postings. I'm very interested
in the EZ-Tadpole, and will probably buy one if it's anything like a
Greenspeed (especially the steering geometry and wheel stance). Disc brakes
are a must, IMO.

> It's a shame really, lots of folks here have been given a
> chance to take small part in the creation of a new bicycle and all they
can
> do is flame away and bet on when and if such a project will be finished.
So
> freakin' sad, what are you doing on this NG if this is not what you came
> here for?

This adversariality is happening everywhere in the US. Polarization along
ideological and political lines, and a generally selfish, anti-creative and
even bullying attitude has cast a pall over our society. It's on TV. It's on
the news. It's in the newspapers. It's here, and it's real. Along with this
polarization ("us" vs "them", "You're either for us, or against us") has
come a rising paranoia. Every day we're bombarded with news that casts our
personal safety and security (politically and economically) into question.
We're being herded by fear into our private castles, separating ourselves
from each other. As millions of jobs are lost, and our currency crumbles,
and government debt rises to record highs, each of us wonders if we will be
next to get a pink slip, or to endure bankruptcy or foreclosure. In such a
social, political and economic climate, we are pitted against each other.
It doesn't have to be that way; but that is how it is now.

> So to all you OT posters, flamers, trolls, etc... get a life, give
> some respect, maybe this NG could be cool if we treated each other, like,
> well, you were standing next to the person you are responding to. Now I'm
> being an OT Flamer too! See what happens! :)

Please keep posting about your new designs, ideas, hopes, wishes, happiness
and other good things. Just ignore the OT postings, and they'll go away,
and you won't be affected by them. I, for one, would love to discuss
creative ideas with you.

Rocketman

Bryan Ball
December 10th 03, 07:21 PM
Hey Rocketman,

Yes I killfiled Dolan eons ago but when everyone responds to his posts, I
still get to see them. Simple fact is that I spend way too much time
reading message boards and such. I needed to cut back on one. With all of
the OT stuff here and the amount of time that I spend trying to filter all
of it out, the decision was easy. I'll still pop in and out but I just
won't try to dig through all of the crap every day. If I had the time, I
would love to post five on-topic messages to every one of Ed Dolan's
right-wing rants but I don't.

BTW - The saddest part is that ARBR was immune to this for SOOOOO long. I
was always amazed at how long it stayed relatively civil and on topic when
other newsgroups that I frequent became big piles of crossposts and
flamewars (ironically one of the Buddhist groups that I used to read is by
far the worst). It's just sad to see that even ARBR isn't immune.

--
Bryan J. Ball
Publisher/Editor
'BentRider Online Magazine
www.bentrideronline.com

Edward Dolan
December 10th 03, 07:22 PM
Jay > wrote in message >...

> > derek > wrote:
> > A sure sign that this group has gone to the dogs is the fact that all
> > the women have been chased off. Or anyone with any level of sensibility
> > for that matter. I remember the good old days when there were posts
> > by the likes of Beth, or Marci, or Melanie, and I am sure I am leaving
> > out others.<snip>
>
> I am one of the recumbent chicks that has no plans of leaving this
> newsgroup.
> It is a shame that the signal to noise ratio has gone way up- but I will not
> abandon this group to the idiots.
>
> Jay<---- XX chromosomes ( and 7 bents)

Here is a moxie gal who is putting all you whiners and quitters to
shame. She has staying power and has also used my favorite expletive -
idiot! And I know she is not into kill filing anyone either. Only
dolts need to do that. I can tell she has a brain in her head.
Intelligence and courage - an unbeatable combination! Some of you guys
could take lessons from her.

Hang in there Jay. All this is soon going to pass as they get sick and
tired and ashamed of themselves for picking on me. I count on this
newsgroup as being made up of mostly gentlemen who are civilized and
cultured, despite what you presently see going on here. This is a just
a falling from grace and everyone will soon come to their senses.

Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan
December 10th 03, 08:39 PM
wrote in message >...

Risto, please excuse the top posting but I am going to have to amend
what I previously answered you with respect to this post of yours. You
are the only one who opposes me that can get through to me as I
respect your reasoning and I can see exactly where you are coming
from. Here is my previous response to your post:

> Edward Dolan > wrote:
>
> : Thanks for being even handed at least. You are one of the few. I have
> : escalated my rhetoric in response to personal attacks on me from my
> : liberal adversaries. Politics is not for children. It is serious
> : business and I am dead serious.
>
> This newsgroup is not for politics. Somebody occasionally posting
> their political agenda, liberal or not, in a thread with a clear
> tendency and maybe even having some relation to benting, might be
> tolerated. Constant political or personal campaigning that seeks
> to take over every thread one participates in is a different matter.[...]

Point well taken! These recent threads concerning me are all about
housekeeping, ever the librarian's chief chore. I have decided to let
them go for the time being and see how things are going to settle out.
I will only come out of the wood work for Mr. Sherman, ever my
nemesis. If he will stop his rants, then I will stop mine.

I think maybe I am going to take a New Year's resolution not to be
calling anymore ARBR'ers idiots. I think we have all of us just about
exhausted the name calling. But I will immediately be back for any
egregious violations of the common understanding that is suppose to
prevail here according to you.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Alas, I will not be able to keep to this resolve. I have spent several
hours reviewing posts to ARBR going way back and they are a
hodge-podge of subjects. Much of it is just banter, some good humored
and some not. I do not feel I am doing anything untoward even though
we are going through a bit of turbulence at the moment. But I am going
to tone down my rhetoric some as I can see it might be a turn off for
some.

Below is my updated response to your post.

> Edward Dolan > wrote:
>
> : Thanks for being even handed at least. You are one of the few. I have
> : escalated my rhetoric in response to personal attacks on me from my
> : liberal adversaries. Politics is not for children. It is serious
> : business and I am dead serious.
>
> This newsgroup is not for politics. Somebody occasionally posting
> their political agenda, liberal or not, in a thread with a clear
> tendency and maybe even having some relation to benting, might be
> tolerated. Constant political or personal campaigning that seeks
> to take over every thread one participates in is a different matter.

Point well taken! If it is just a throw away line I will let it pass,
but if it turns into a rant or is particularly mean and vicious, then
I will have to respond. And then from that point onward everything
will be tit for tat. I think that is fair.

> Consider the case of Mr V. Somebody who values untainted wilderness
> might find his ideas interesting. But he is generally considered a
> nuisance, and people don't really pay attention to his message. They
> just tell him to go away or refute him in abusive turns of speech. (The
> best tactic would be to ignore, of course, he wouldn't really listen
> either.) Do you think Mr. V is ok? His cause doesn't even matter, it's
> just simply wrong what he is doing.

I haven't read Mr.V., but it seems to me that a bike forum devoted to
mountain bikes might be an entirely appropriate place to have a
discussion about the impact of mountain bikes on wilderness values.
After looking at his web site (courtesy of Mr. Sherman), I don't think
I would relish tangling with him, but I am fearless and would do so if
I strongly disagreed with him. However, I think I might agree with him
more than I would disagree with him. But that is another discussion
for another day.

> : Don't ever go to a newsgroup for friendship! Even when you think you
> : have found it, it is an illusion. This is cyberspace and it is for the
> : exchange of words only. There is reality and then there is the
> : Internet. Don't ever confuse the two.
>
> Not sound advice, IMHO. Bent riders can be friends online, and
> more so IRL. I have found bent riders to be a very nice
> international community, like a big family. People will help
> others in need and stick together for mutual gain.

I think you are probably a friendly sort of person and I am a hermit
and have never in my life been able to understand what friends are
good for.

> If you insult somebody online, you run a double risk because they
> might remember that when they meet you IRL.

See my answer above. By the way, what is IRL?

> : Al, no one can stay on a newsgroup forever. We all of us wear out our
> : welcomes, some sooner than others. I think 2 years is about right.
> : Then it is time to move on to something else.
>
> It should not be so. In reality, people can at least come back
> after a few years. I've done that occasionally.
>
> People who are civil, contribute useful stuff or just are inactive
> rarely wear out their welcome.

Yes, but I think we all need to take a break from whatever newsgroup
we frequent from time to time. There is such a thing as being too much
a "regular".

> IMO news is the most useful and convenient means for a forum
> about a given subject. I could go elsewhere for a subject, but it
> would be not the same, even though it might have some slight
> advantages over news.
>
> : always just be a small number and easily ignored by those who want to
> : ignore them. 90% of the threads will be recumbent related topics as
> : always. And that will more than satisfy most folks.
>
> I hope so. I'm afraid of trolls with a persistence to go on for years.
> Like Mr. V for example - look what he's done for the off-road group. I
> recall very few on-topic threads there, the people who post spend their
> energy fighting him. Fortunately this kind of trolls seem to be a very
> rare individual.
>
> Somebody with a vicious tongue and a soiled mind will send some
> bad ripples through the community, though. I think the general
> spirit and athmosphere of one's little chatroom has something to
> it, and it should be cultivated.

I am not a troll. I have no interest in that. I think I am being
mistaken for a troll because my language is immoderate. But I talk
like this all the time. And so do most of the folks that I know here
in small town Minnesota. Calling someone an idiot is almost a
compliment and a term of endearment here. I do not see what all the
fuss is about. Try to get used to me.

Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan
December 10th 03, 08:51 PM
(Fabrizio Mazzoleni) wrote in message >...

> (Edward Dolan) wrote in message >...
>
> > Damn it, Fab! Get back on this newsgroup!
>
> Well, I don't think this newsgroup will be around this time next year.
>
> Recumbents have pretty well much dropped off the radar screen. Look at
> the mainstream press, they never mention bents:
>
> CycleSport = never
> ProCycling = never
> Cyclingnews.com = never
>
> If those guys ignore you then you can say you're not out there doing
> it!
>
> It's guys like me that get all the public's attention.


Admit it guys! Isn't Fab refreshing after having to put up with the
likes of me these past several weeks? Maybe from now on we can all
appreciate this master troll who is actually a very good humored troll
and has the knack for raising our spirits and ensuring some jollity. I
ask you, what would ARBR be without a few trolls to spark some life
into us.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan
December 10th 03, 09:06 PM
"Rocketman" > wrote in message news:<ZUzBb.10019$8y1.45681@attbi_s52>...
[...]

> Yeah, Ed Dolan. Like Derek, I'm spending most of my time on
> rec.bicycles.racing, too, and so is Tom Sherman and other raving
> left-wing-fringe arch-liberal commie traitors. But we're incognito, of
> course, so you won't be able to tell who we are. Some of us even have girly
> pony tails, and advocate same-sex marriage, womens' reproductive rights and
> gun control!! (seriously) So don't you *dare* post dozens of OT right-wing
> troll rants to rec.bicycles.racing, or you'll wish you hadn't! I'm warning
> you, Ed Dolan! I know where you live!

Drop by some time and we will have a glass of vino together. By the
way, is not bicycle racing connected to recreation an oxymoron?

I would be interested to know if Mr. Sherman will now be leaving ARBR
now that he has found a more friendly home in this new club of yours.
I actually might miss him slightly, but of course I will never miss
you if you decide never to post to ARBR again. It would be double and
triple good riddance to you!

> > > This newsgroup must really have been horrible when you and Cletus were
> > > calling the shots. Now that it has opened up I am glad to see that you
> > > have found another cozy little club elsewhere. And, no, I do not want
> > > to know where you have plopped yourself down. Your new sources for
> > > bent information are probably infested with liberals too and are
> > > exactly the sort of pigsty ARBR was until I came along.
>
> Translation: Too many smart people who could swat down your laughably
> unsupportable arguments like so many flies. Be afraid, Ed. Be very afraid.
> Did you enjoy alt.impeach.bush? ROTFLMAO!

I have not gotten around to investigating the impeach Bush site yet.
There are so many good conservative web sites that it is highly
doubtful if I ever will. But thanks for warning me! Life is short and
I can only spend so much time dealing with trash and garbage. Your
posts to this newsgroup are sufficient for me for the time being.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan
December 10th 03, 09:32 PM
"Rocketman" > wrote in message news:<CGzBb.73919$_M.372052@attbi_s54>...

> "Al Kubeluis" > wrote in message
> ...
[...]

> > Ed Dolan started out in good humor to counter liberal biases on arbr,
> > but he has over done it.
>
> Sorry, but going all the way back to the very first Dolan thread, I failed
> to see any humor. The guy is a classic troll with no debating skills, and no
> apparent interest in actual give-and-take discussion. He belongs in the
> permanent killfile with all other trolls.

It has never been my mission to amuse jackasses like yourself. If you
want humor, turn on your TV any night of the week and view the
situation comedies. That should be about on your level.

Also, I am not here to debate anyone. Everyone in this world knows
what and how liberals think about things. I am here to give my
opinions and my opinions only to refute liberal opinions. If you want
debate, go to Cambridge or Oxford in England and see how it is done
for real. These newsgroups are nothing but opinions and that extends
to recumbent related topics too.

But the main thing is that anyone who would go back and look up old
threads to see what anyone said on them has got to be crazy. For
instance, I have never had the slightest interest in what anyone has
ever said on any newsgroup except what I am currently reading and
responding to. But that is because I am not crazy like Rocketman!

> > But Ed Dolan is not the only, or even main, OT poster. Tom Sherman,
> for
> > one, posts many liberal OT posts.
>
> Um, there's your problem. It's not about who is liberal and who isn't, now
> is it? I didn't see a sign at the gate to a.r.b.r. that said "no liberals,
> please!" Political partisanship is of no concern here; until certain trolls
> make it their mission to divide a thread along political lines.

Yes, it is all right with this jackass if liberal political opinions
are inserted in a reucmbent related topic. However, the rest of us
know that it is far better to have an OT thread devoted strictly to
politics so that the rest of us do not have to read asinine political
liberal comments in a thread that is suppose to be about recumbents.
Another beautiful example of
liberal "articulated logic" - whatever the heck that is.
[...]

> > Those who want to talk politics, go to a politics newsgroup.
> > Those that want to fight, email duel.
>
> Talk to your boy Ed Dolan about this. He's been in my killfile for a long
> time now. A.R.B.R is a better place without him, IMO.

And why not talk to your boy Tom Sherman about this? ARBR would be a
far better place without you and him both, in my humble opinion of
course.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan
December 10th 03, 09:51 PM
"Rocketman" > wrote in message news:<rhABb.74348$_M.372583@attbi_s54>...
[...]
> This adversariality is happening everywhere in the US. Polarization along
> ideological and political lines, and a generally selfish, anti-creative and
> even bullying attitude has cast a pall over our society. It's on TV. It's on
> the news. It's in the newspapers. It's here, and it's real. Along with this
> polarization ("us" vs "them", "You're either for us, or against us") has
> come a rising paranoia. Every day we're bombarded with news that casts our
> personal safety and security (politically and economically) into question.
> We're being herded by fear into our private castles, separating ourselves
> from each other. As millions of jobs are lost, and our currency crumbles,
> and government debt rises to record highs, each of us wonders if we will be
> next to get a pink slip, or to endure bankruptcy or foreclosure. In such a
> social, political and economic climate, we are pitted against each other.
> It doesn't have to be that way; but that is how it is now.

There it is folks! The complete liberal diatribe.

Polarization is the best thing that has ever happened to this country.
At long last the previous prevailing liberal orthodoxy is being
contested and being defeated. You have had your run for the past 50
years (ever since WW II for the most part) and now it is time for a
really big change which is being ushered in by Bush II. America will
be infinitely the better for it and so will the rest of the world. And
just in the nick of time too when terrorist groups and rogue states
are on the brink of acquiring nuclear weapons. Does anyone in their
right mind think the liberal Dems would know how to deal with that
extremely important problem - other than running to the UN of course.
This is the very same UN that knows how to standby and allow genocide
to occur right under it's nose over and over again (Rwanda and the
Balkans).

Dean is your man. Please be so good as to throw away your vote on him.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Rocketman
December 10th 03, 10:23 PM
"Bryan Ball" > wrote in message
...
> Hey Rocketman,
>
> Yes I killfiled Dolan eons ago but when everyone responds to his posts, I
> still get to see them. Simple fact is that I spend way too much time
> reading message boards and such. I needed to cut back on one.

Please don't give up on a.r.b.r. just yet. It's still a vital resource, and
we're trying to make it better, increase S/N ratio, etc. It's all about the
people, and our collective will to better our state. Nothing happens by
accident on Usenet.

> With all of
> the OT stuff here and the amount of time that I spend trying to filter all
> of it out, the decision was easy. I'll still pop in and out but I just
> won't try to dig through all of the crap every day. If I had the time, I
> would love to post five on-topic messages to every one of Ed Dolan's
> right-wing rants but I don't.

We're wise to Ed Dolan now. He knows he's not wanted, and inhabits most of
our killfiles permanently. I've stopped responding to him (even by proxy),
and will try my very best not to add to OT threads.

Must...resist...temptation...to...bitch-slap...lame-ass
troll...resistance...fading...engage...emergency.. .circuits...

> BTW - The saddest part is that ARBR was immune to this for SOOOOO long. I
> was always amazed at how long it stayed relatively civil and on topic when
> other newsgroups that I frequent became big piles of crossposts and
> flamewars (ironically one of the Buddhist groups that I used to read is by
> far the worst).
> It's just sad to see that even ARBR isn't immune.

Religious NG's are the worst for trolls! Maybe the Church of RANS (did I
spel it rite, Tom? ;-) is close enough.

Glad you're still here, Bryan, even if it's part-time. Hey, you have a life,
and a magazine to write.

We all love ya' like a brother, even if you did find an escape hatch out of
the US to the land of Sleek and Beautiful Recumbents in "Yurrup." Looking
forward to a full review of the new Challenge Taifun 20/26 (what's it
called again?) That one is on the top of my 2004 purchase list, even if I
can't remember the name.

Cheers,

Rocketman

skip
December 10th 03, 11:04 PM
"Rocketman" > wrote in message
news:f9MBb.79779$_M.393835@attbi_s54...<snip>
> "Bryan Ball" > wrote in message
> ...<snip>
> > Hey Rocketman,
> >
> > Yes I killfiled Dolan eons ago but when everyone responds to his posts,
I
> > still get to see them.
>
> Please don't give up on a.r.b.r. just yet. It's still a vital resource,
and
> we're trying to make it better, increase S/N ratio, etc. It's all about
the
> people, and our collective will to better our state. Nothing happens by
> accident on Usenet.
>

Rocketman's desperate plea to keep Bryan aboard almost brings a tear to my
eye.

But then only two hours earlier Rocketman's contribution toward making arbr
a
vital resource, increase S/N ratio, and to
better our state is reflected in this exchange:

> Republicans want to starve kids, kick old people out on the street,
> make poor people have to eat dog food to survive, poison the air, land
> and water and kill millions of American kids with your imperialist
> wars.

They don't just *want* to do it, they *are* doing it! It's much worse than
anybody dreamed possible back in those prosperous and carefree days before
Election 2000, the end of democracy as we knew it in the US.

> HAIL to the THIEF! Not my president. IMPEACH HE SUPREME COURT!

Right there with ya, brother.

> "If the goal of President Bush's foreign policy was to make America
> weaker, more vulnerable and more hated, mission accomplished."

Great quote. Is it yours? Can I borrow it?

Rocketman

Kurt Fischer
December 10th 03, 11:12 PM
Edward Dolan > wrote:


> Jon, did it ever occur to you that maybe the recumbent related topics
> are so boring and dull that no one is paying any attention to them
> anymore. Instead, these OT posts, which you so much deplore, seem to
> be generating a lot of responses. Why is that I wonder? It can't
> possibly be just me, can it?


No, it's not just you, it takes two to Tango, at minimum. These OT-posts
attract attention because we are all human beings after all, it's kind
of an ambivalent dilemma: On the one hand we feel we should stay away
from this threads, but on the other they are corresponding to our lowest
instincts. Many of us stare fascinated at you and your counterparts
awaiting eagerly the next sensations of your political mud-wrestling.

So you shouldn't feel too guilty and I don't blame you alone,
nevertheless I think you should give some thoughts a serious
deliberation.

First I think you fall into a major error dividing this group into
liberals and conservatives. People are not here in the first line
because of their political orientation, they want to talk about
recumbents. And I don't buy your crusade against the wicked liberals, in
reality you and all of your _deliberately_ off topic posting buddies -
liberals, conservatives, or whatever - are leading a very unholy war
against one of the most important principles of Usenet and against all
who are trying to maintain this fundamental principle - liberals,
conservatives or whatever.

I'm sure you know what principle I'm aiming at: Usenet is divided into
subjects, not into groups of people discussing all and everything.
That's why there are thousands of groups with different topics, not a
single group talk.all, where you would have to browse through zillions
of postings to find the ones you're interested in. Or even worse:
thousands of talk.all groups and you had to scroll through all this
groups till you were able to find by chance what you were seeking.

Of course a certain amount of OT will happen in every group, that's ok
and simply a consequence of human nature, but as soon as these posts
exceed a critical mass, the feelings will get nastier and nastier and
the good humor gets lost.

I do vote for free speech, and I'm convinced you should say what you
want to say, but I'd suggest to do it at the right places. And a.r.b.r.
is not the right place to talk about Bush and politics in an extended
way. All you excessive OT-posters act like golfers occupying a
football-field where teams are playing and many spectators(lurkers) want
to watch the football-game.
That's unfair against players and spectators and will cause anger sooner
or later, even if some of the spectators are interested also in golf.

I hope a.r.b.r. will survive the hard times, maybe your excessive
OT-posting will be good for something. By making a profession out of it
and doing it as fulltime-job you probably will clearly demonstrate where
this will lead. So maybe, Ed, you will serve as a mirror for all the
"left wing wackos" who think it's okay to post longwinded OT-threads.

And, for the (good?) end: It's very easy to spoil good manners and to
destroy, think of a house of cards. But it's very difficult and a real
challenge to find back to the good manners and to build up a climate
where useful and constructive debates are possible. Take your choice.

Kurt

Mikael Seierup
December 10th 03, 11:20 PM
"Kurt Fischer" skrev...
> And, for the (good?) end: It's very easy to spoil good manners and to
> destroy, think of a house of cards. But it's very difficult and a real
> challenge to find back to the good manners and to build up a climate
> where useful and constructive debates are possible. Take your choice.

This is not a new thing. Has happened here before.
Newsgroup is still around far as I can see. Just with different people.

Oddly enough when we had 20 overlapping OT threads in a week because of 9-11
one almost got crucified for suggesting people stick to the existing threads
or taking it somewhere else. I suppose theres OT and OT. ;-/

Oh well. This is as pointless as getting people to cut what they are not
replying to etc. so I will stop contributing to these threads.

M.

Just zis Guy, you know?
December 11th 03, 12:51 AM
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:04:36 -0600, "skip" > wrote:

>But then only two hours earlier Rocketman's contribution toward making arbr
>a
>vital resource, increase S/N ratio, and to
>better our state is reflected in this exchange:

>> Republicans want to starve kids, kick old people out on the street,
>> make poor people have to eat dog food to survive, poison the air, land
>> and water and kill millions of American kids with your imperialist
>> wars.

Well, hell, I thought you were only complaining about *contentious*
off-topic stuff ;-)

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk

skip
December 11th 03, 01:20 AM
"Just zis Guy, you know?" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:04:36 -0600, "skip" > wrote:
>
> >But then only two hours earlier Rocketman's contribution toward making
arbr
> >a
> >vital resource, increase S/N ratio, and to
> >better our state is reflected in this exchange:
>
> >> Republicans want to starve kids, kick old people out on the street,
> >> make poor people have to eat dog food to survive, poison the air, land
> >> and water and kill millions of American kids with your imperialist
> >> wars.
>
> Well, hell, I thought you were only complaining about *contentious*
> off-topic stuff ;-)
>
> Guy
> ===
> ** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony.
> http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk

I'm not complaining, mind you (having contributed my share), only noting the
traces of *irony* in all of this.

skip

Zippy the Pinhead
December 11th 03, 02:26 AM
On 9 Dec 2003 21:29:09 -0800, (Fabrizio Mazzoleni)
wrote:


>
>It's guys like me that get all the public's attention.

Guys like you and Michael Jackson.

Rocketman
December 11th 03, 04:06 AM
"skip" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Just zis Guy, you know?" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:04:36 -0600, "skip" > wrote:
> >
> > >But then only two hours earlier Rocketman's contribution toward making
> arbr
> > >a
> > >vital resource, increase S/N ratio, and to
> > >better our state is reflected in this exchange:
> >
> > >> Republicans want to starve kids, kick old people out on the street,
> > >> make poor people have to eat dog food to survive, poison the air,
land
> > >> and water and kill millions of American kids with your imperialist
> > >> wars.
> >
> > Well, hell, I thought you were only complaining about *contentious*
> > off-topic stuff ;-)
> >
> > Guy
> > ===
> > ** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony.
> > http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk
>
> I'm not complaining, mind you (having contributed my share), only noting
the
> traces of *irony* in all of this.

And this is helping in what way, other than as a self-serving display of
tattle-tailing? Ah, that's what I thought.

Maybe next time you can contribute something of value to our group.

-Rocketman

skip
December 11th 03, 06:12 AM
"Rocketman" > wrote in message
news:lbRBb.359222$275.1178300@attbi_s53...
>
> "skip" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Just zis Guy, you know?" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:04:36 -0600, "skip" > wrote:
> > >
> > > >But then only two hours earlier Rocketman's contribution toward
making
> > arbr
> > > >a
> > > >vital resource, increase S/N ratio, and to
> > > >better our state is reflected in this exchange:
> > >
> > > >> Republicans want to starve kids, kick old people out on the street,
> > > >> make poor people have to eat dog food to survive, poison the air,
> land
> > > >> and water and kill millions of American kids with your imperialist
> > > >> wars.
> > >
> > > Well, hell, I thought you were only complaining about *contentious*
> > > off-topic stuff ;-)
> > >
> > > Guy
> > > ===
> > > ** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony.
> > > http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk
> >
> > I'm not complaining, mind you (having contributed my share), only noting
> the
> > traces of *irony* in all of this.
>
> And this is helping in what way, other than as a self-serving display of
> tattle-tailing? Ah, that's what I thought.
>
> Maybe next time you can contribute something of value to our group.
>
> -Rocketman
>
>
Rocketman I'm sorry you're unhappy about being exposed in a pot kettle black
deal, but the hypocrisy and irony of all this was so egregious I couldn't
stop myself from pointing it out to those who seemingly have such a
difficult time seeing it. If you're going to continue posting in such an
extreme political vein perhaps you should consider backing off the "it's
all Dolan's fault" ragging you've been joining in on lately. Just a
suggestion.

skip

Edward Dolan
December 11th 03, 06:54 AM
(Kurt Fischer) wrote in message >...

> Edward Dolan > wrote:
>
> > Jon, did it ever occur to you that maybe the recumbent related topics
> > are so boring and dull that no one is paying any attention to them
> > anymore. Instead, these OT posts, which you so much deplore, seem to
> > be generating a lot of responses. Why is that I wonder? It can't
> > possibly be just me, can it?
>
>
> No, it's not just you, it takes two to Tango, at minimum. These OT-posts
> attract attention because we are all human beings after all, it's kind
> of an ambivalent dilemma: On the one hand we feel we should stay away
> from this threads, but on the other they are corresponding to our lowest
> instincts. Many of us stare fascinated at you and your counterparts
> awaiting eagerly the next sensations of your political mud-wrestling.

Yes, I surely do appreciate what you say about it taking two to tango.
But you lose me on the lowest instincts comment. I don't really see it
that way. Everything is and should be grist for the mill.

> So you shouldn't feel too guilty and I don't blame you alone,
> nevertheless I think you should give some thoughts a serious
> deliberation.
>
> First I think you fall into a major error dividing this group into
> liberals and conservatives. People are not here in the first line
> because of their political orientation, they want to talk about
> recumbents. And I don't buy your crusade against the wicked liberals, in
> reality you and all of your _deliberately_ off topic posting buddies -
> liberals, conservatives, or whatever - are leading a very unholy war
> against one of the most important principles of Usenet and against all
> who are trying to maintain this fundamental principle - liberals,
> conservatives or whatever.
>
> I'm sure you know what principle I'm aiming at: Usenet is divided into
> subjects, not into groups of people discussing all and everything.
> That's why there are thousands of groups with different topics, not a
> single group talk.all, where you would have to browse through zillions
> of postings to find the ones you're interested in. Or even worse:
> thousands of talk.all groups and you had to scroll through all this
> groups till you were able to find by chance what you were seeking.

An excellent exposition of what newsgroups are all about which I
appreciate fully.

> Of course a certain amount of OT will happen in every group, that's ok
> and simply a consequence of human nature, but as soon as these posts
> exceed a critical mass, the feelings will get nastier and nastier and
> the good humor gets lost.

I am part of that certain amount of OT. It should never exceed a
critical mass as you say and normally it doesn't. What is going on
right now is a bit of housekeeping with me as it's object. All of this
should be on maybe just a couple of OT threads, but threads multiply
like snakes with no rhyme nor reason to them. Nastiness is mostly in
the mind of the reader and what passes for good humor is mostly just
God awful boring!

But since I am the object of the discussion, what would you have me
do. Just disappear? I am convinced that no one can control a
newsgroup. I believe if you would care to take a look at my posting in
toto to this newsgroup you would find that I am quite in the
mainstream. I am offending no more so than anyone else. I do not go
into long political rants unless that is what I am confronted with. I
do not bring up political subjects willy-nilly. And I carefully gauge
the tone of my response to what I have received. It is all tit for
tat.

> I do vote for free speech, and I'm convinced you should say what you
> want to say, but I'd suggest to do it at the right places. And a.r.b.r.
> is not the right place to talk about Bush and politics in an extended
> way. All you excessive OT-posters act like golfers occupying a
> football-field where teams are playing and many spectators(lurkers) want
> to watch the football-game.
> That's unfair against players and spectators and will cause anger sooner
> or later, even if some of the spectators are interested also in golf.
>
> I hope a.r.b.r. will survive the hard times, maybe your excessive
> OT-posting will be good for something. By making a profession out of it
> and doing it as fulltime-job you probably will clearly demonstrate where
> this will lead. So maybe, Ed, you will serve as a mirror for all the
> "left wing wackos" who think it's okay to post longwinded OT-threads.

My so called "excessive OT posting" is in response to the gang-up that
is going on here. I have to respond to the many whereas those who are
opposed to me do so one by one, and on many different threads. So of
course it looks like I am being excessive. Where is your sense of fair
play?

What sticks in my mind from your message is that it takes two to
tango. I think we can have our OT fun and not be a bother to any one
else. 90% of the message threads and the posts will continue to be on
recumbent related subjects as always. Mostly all I am doing now is
monitoring OT and a few other subject threads which are clearly OT
even though not so labeled. It seems to me that the regular posting is
going on same as always.

You need to face the fact that there are a substantial number of folks
on this newsgroup who clearly enjoy OT. As long as we do not exceed
your critical mass I do not see what the problem is. Read what
Rocketman has to say about it in several of his recent posts. As nuts
as he is on politics, I think he has got it about right. It is just so
easy to ignore anything you do not want to read. I do not even see the
necessity of kill filing, but if that is what others want to do it is
OK by me. The supreme irony that you have to face is that these OT
threads seem to go on and on and accumulate the most messages of any
threads.

Mr. Sherman should be helping me fight this battle but like all
liberals he is out to lunch when you need him the most.

> And, for the (good?) end: It's very easy to spoil good manners and to
> destroy, think of a house of cards. But it's very difficult and a real
> challenge to find back to the good manners and to build up a climate
> where useful and constructive debates are possible. Take your choice.

No, you are completely overstating things now. My manners and those
others of us on OT are up to the mark. We are all on the same wave
length and are enjoying one another's company. We are not going to
take over ARBR and we are not going to run it into the ground either.
ARBR is not a house of cards. It is as solid as the Rock of Gibraltar.
There will always be newbies wanting to know something about
recumbents and there will always be regulars who will delight in
informing them and advising them. The same old subjects will go on
forever. Nothing will ever change. And there will always be that 10%
OT. It is all perfectly normal and natural.

I do think there are way too many control freaks here on ARBR. Maybe
many of you would be happier in a chat room situation. It would be a
much smaller group and you would all know one another and be friends.
I prefer the wild wild world of Usenet where you can never predict
what someone is going to say to you. Life does not get any better than
that!

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan
December 11th 03, 07:13 AM
"Rocketman" > wrote in message news:<f9MBb.79779$_M.393835@attbi_s54>...
[...]

> We're wise to Ed Dolan now. He knows he's not wanted, and inhabits most of
> our killfiles permanently. I've stopped responding to him (even by proxy),
> and will try my very best not to add to OT threads.

There are about a dozen who have so far indicated via their posts that
they do not much like what I have to say in my humble messages. Let's
see, that probably leaves at least a few thousand who have no
objection and there may well be many hundreds who do enjoy my posts.
So why should I pay any attention to Rocketman and his ilk.

Rocketman is one of those poor benighted souls who does not like to be
crossed, let alone disagreed with. He will be leaving us shortly as he
must have everything his own way. He is a control freak. Apparently
many of the old regulars are going over to something called bicycles
racing recreation. There is an oxymoron if I ever heard one. But I
wish them all god speed and the best of good posting where they can
all bond with one another without any interference from the likes of
me. In the meantime the rest of us will soldier on with our somewhat
contentious posting in the real world of ARBR.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

December 11th 03, 07:40 AM
Mikael Seierup > wrote:

: Oddly enough when we had 20 overlapping OT threads in a week because of 9-11
: one almost got crucified for suggesting people stick to the existing threads
: or taking it somewhere else. I suppose theres OT and OT. ;-/

Ouch. Too bad I wasn't there ;p This is news, where the point IMO
is that you have a fairly strict separation into topical groups.
You can always set the follow-ups to the appropriate group and
continue your fight there. Heck, maybe Ed and folks should take it
to something like alt.usenet.free-speech? :p

It's different on a forum that's made for the community, not a
topic. Even there I learned that discussing political stuff (like
the repercussions of 9-11) is a good way to get a flame war with
Americans. Europe and the US come from so different angles, we
start as friends and end up finding how different we are as people
when it comes to politics. That's the second reason I steer clear
of heavily political OT.

It is obviously the same for republicans vs. democrats, but a
liberals vs. conservatives fight is largely a US internal matter,
and one that is not of much interest to us Europeans.

Wonder how this group is going to turn out when we have some Arabs
or Malaysians posting here?

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/

Bryan Ball
December 11th 03, 12:11 PM
Best post I've seen in a long time...

--
Bryan J. Ball
Publisher/Editor
'BentRider Online Magazine
www.bentrideronline.com

skip
December 11th 03, 04:15 PM
"Edward Dolan" > wrote in message
om...

> Apparently many of the old regulars are going over to something called
bicycles
> racing recreation. There is an oxymoron if I ever heard one. But I
> wish them all god speed and the best of good posting where they can
> all bond with one another without any interference from the likes of
> me. In the meantime the rest of us will soldier on with our somewhat
> contentious posting in the real world of ARBR.
>

The suggested migration of a.r.b.r. regulars to rec.bicycle.racing is
attempted humor by Rocketman. Recumbent riders would not be welcomed in
this newsgroup known for its contentiousness that is generally centered
around bike racing matters, who is taking what drugs, personal sexuality,
and other personal characteristics of the posters. Those guys have all the
political sense of a Fabrizo Mazzoleni. But they would surely unite to heap
abuse on a recumbent cyclist who had the misfortune of accidentally
wandering into the newsgroup.

skip

December 11th 03, 04:42 PM
skip > wrote:
: The suggested migration of a.r.b.r. regulars to rec.bicycle.racing is
: attempted humor by Rocketman. Recumbent riders would not be welcomed in
: this newsgroup known for its contentiousness that is generally centered
: around bike racing matters, who is taking what drugs, personal sexuality,
: and other personal characteristics of the posters. Those guys have all the
: political sense of a Fabrizo Mazzoleni. But they would surely unite to heap
: abuse on a recumbent cyclist who had the misfortune of accidentally
: wandering into the newsgroup.

Huh, haven't noticed. I even mentioned bents explicitly sometimes.
The group sure has some obnoxious posters (at least part of the
time) but there's also some very likable folks.

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/

Kurt Fischer
December 11th 03, 04:43 PM
Edward Dolan > wrote:


> Yes, I surely do appreciate what you say about it taking two to tango.
> But you lose me on the lowest instincts comment. I don't really see it
> that way. Everything is and should be grist for the mill.

Of course it was irony with the inevitable grain of truth in it. I'm
convinced we can't resolve problems without being sincere and seeing our
own responsibility. You're right, you're not the only one who is
enjoying these OT-Threads, everyone who responds and takes part is
responsible for their growing, so I see no reason to blame only you for
it. It's kind of an interaction, not your fault alone.


[...]

> I am part of that certain amount of OT. It should never exceed a
> critical mass as you say and normally it doesn't. What is going on
> right now is a bit of housekeeping with me as it's object. All of this
> should be on maybe just a couple of OT threads, but threads multiply
> like snakes with no rhyme nor reason to them.

Yes, that's true, OT threads and Usenet in general are hard to predict
and not to control, that's why every poster should be very careful about
his writing. Sometimes it does even help to think before posting. ;-)


> Nastiness is mostly in the mind of the reader and what passes for good humor
> is mostly just God awful boring!

It's true that beauty often lies in the eye of the beholder, but that's
_no_ excuse for borderless insulting or flaming. As a (retired)
librarian you surely know that it's in the first line the author who is
responsible for his text, not the reader. Please keep this in mind when
using the term "idiot" as a compliment. ;-)



> But since I am the object of the discussion, what would you have me
> do. Just disappear?

I'm not here to tell you what to do, but as you're asking me, I will
give you my opinion and I'm sure you will take it as what it is. I have
for you the same advices as for anyone else coming to this group:

1. Do not post (extended) off topic stuff (without general acceptance)

2. Do not respond to OT

3. If there is someone or something you dislike, just ignore

4. If you want to discuss a subject which is OT at the current group,
take it to an appropriate group, preferably by setting a follow up to
the new group.
That means you have to fill in the name of the new group in the line for
the follow up and the answer will appear only in the new group.
Sometimes it is more handsome to do this via cross posting, in order to
give the regulars of the next group as much context as possible.

a.r.b.r. ----> (a.r.b.r.)
(alt.politics.bush) ----> alt.politics.bush

Setting a follow up will invite all those to the next group who are
really interested in this discussion. I don't know if this is possible
via Google groups, but if not, you can always start a new thread in the
appropriate group and give a pointer in the old one.

So I do not think you should leave or disappear, but I suggest to take
the major part of your OT-stuff to an appropriate group and to
concentrate on discussions about recumbents in this group. Nobody will
object to a few ramblings now and then, but you shouldn't forget the
main purpose of this group.


> I am convinced that no one can control a newsgroup. I believe if you would
> care to take a look at my posting in toto to this newsgroup you would find
> that I am quite in the mainstream. I am offending no more so than anyone
> else. I do not go into long political rants unless that is what I am
> confronted with. I do not bring up political subjects willy-nilly. And I
> carefully gauge the tone of my response to what I have received. It is all
> tit for tat.

I see you and your OT-counterparts trapped in a very muddled
"eye-for-eye"-game, maybe already blinded by hatred for the obvious.
Every time you are responding to one of your opponents, you give him an
excellent opportunity to expose his opinions and to depreciate your own
and vice versa ad infinitum. That's a game nobody can win and victims in
this case are mainly innocent people who came to a.r.b.r. seeking
information and discussions about recumbents. You can't steal away from
this responsibility.


> My so called "excessive OT posting" is in response to the gang-up that
> is going on here. I have to respond to the many whereas those who are
> opposed to me do so one by one, and on many different threads. So of
> course it looks like I am being excessive.

Rereading my post you will see that I didn't blame only you for
OT-posting. What's special with you is your _complete_ dedication and
concentration on OT, that's the main difference between you and e.g. Tom
Sherman, who contributes regularly to the topic of this group. I guess
that's why he seems to be more accepted and tolerated than you. This
doesn't excuse his own aberrations to political OT, but at least he
seems to remember sometimes what this group is about.


> Where is your sense of fair play?

I will explain it to you. Let's go back to my example about golf and
football: Imagine there is a group of people happily playing football.
While playing, some of them realize they actually prefer playing golf.
As long as they are forming their decision they are allowed to stay on
the field, but when they start seriously to play and more and more
members of the football-team begin to complain about their behavior,
they are supposed to leave the place. It's easy, look around, there are
a lot of fields out there and everyone will find a place suited for his
needs and his interests, just a few clicks of your fingers away. That's
fair play for me.

But what are you OT-posters doing? You know you're not at the right
place, but you point with your fingers at each other crying: "But it was
him who started, not me! And after all, you can see I'm playing golf, so
why don't you get out of my way?"
That's no fair play for me, it's a deliberate nuisance.

[...]

> Mr. Sherman should be helping me fight this battle but like all
> liberals he is out to lunch when you need him the most.

I don't know if this will help you, but I would him fundamentally tell
the same as you, you're both the other side of the same medal. ;-)



> No, you are completely overstating things now. My manners and those
> others of us on OT are up to the mark. We are all on the same wave
> length and are enjoying one another's company. We are not going to
> take over ARBR and we are not going to run it into the ground either.
> ARBR is not a house of cards. It is as solid as the Rock of Gibraltar.
> There will always be newbies wanting to know something about
> recumbents and there will always be regulars who will delight in
> informing them and advising them. The same old subjects will go on
> forever. Nothing will ever change. And there will always be that 10%
> OT. It is all perfectly normal and natural.

That's glorious euphemism for me. Obviously we are not reading the same
group, I can remember a lot of very unhappy campers and their bitter
complaints here.

Besides, everything changes all the time, steadily. Look back only ten
years, there was no recumbent newsgroup. Nobody knows what's going on in
ten or even only five years.

The world of recumbency is growing fast, new models every year, they
become more and more affordable and trikes are gaining rapidly. One
should think there are subjects enough to discuss without the need for
digressing to political themes.


> I do think there are way too many control freaks here on ARBR. Maybe
> many of you would be happier in a chat room situation. It would be a
> much smaller group and you would all know one another and be friends.
> I prefer the wild wild world of Usenet where you can never predict
> what someone is going to say to you. Life does not get any better than
> that!

In my opinion a.r.b.r. plays an important role in the world of
recumbents. I appreciate the occasion to get first hand information
without any restrictions, be it filters, moderation, censorship or
whatever. Of course, most of us are reading it in their spare time, but
there are folks who do serious work, think of Bryan Ball or Bob Bryant,
you will find manufacturers and dealers here, engaged home-builders too,
and many of us can profit from their efforts. So I don't think it's a
good idea to sabotage their work and drive them away by abusing this
group as a forum for personal campaigns. And no, I don't think you're
the only one, but I hope you are reasonable enough to give it a thought.

Kurt

skip
December 11th 03, 06:36 PM
> wrote in message
...
> skip > wrote:
> : The suggested migration of a.r.b.r. regulars to rec.bicycle.racing is
> : attempted humor by Rocketman. Recumbent riders would not be welcomed
in
> : this newsgroup known for its contentiousness that is generally centered
> : around bike racing matters, who is taking what drugs, personal
sexuality,
> : and other personal characteristics of the posters. Those guys have all
the
> : political sense of a Fabrizo Mazzoleni. But they would surely unite to
heap
> : abuse on a recumbent cyclist who had the misfortune of accidentally
> : wandering into the newsgroup.
>
> Huh, haven't noticed. I even mentioned bents explicitly sometimes.
> The group sure has some obnoxious posters (at least part of the
> time) but there's also some very likable folks.
>
> --
> Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/
>

Really? Maybe things have changed. Or maybe it's your personal demeanor -
you do seem to get along with most everyone and look for the best in people.
Could you point me to one of your good experiences with a bent post there?
My reference point is Jeff Potter's attempts to interest them in HPV racing
awhile back. Admittedly it has been some time since I visited that group.

skip

December 11th 03, 07:54 PM
skip > wrote:

: Really? Maybe things have changed. Or maybe it's your personal demeanor -
: you do seem to get along with most everyone and look for the best in people.
: Could you point me to one of your good experiences with a bent post there?
: My reference point is Jeff Potter's attempts to interest them in HPV racing
: awhile back. Admittedly it has been some time since I visited that group.

Try
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=recumbent+varis+group%3Arec.bicycles.racing&btnG=Google+Search&meta=group%3Drec.bicycles.racing

alias

http://tinyurl.com/ysvj

I don't think they flamed me once. I also notice some very
familiar posters from here. But maybe it's the bent topic that
attracts them :-)

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/

Edward Dolan
December 11th 03, 10:46 PM
"Bryan Ball" > wrote in message >...

> Best post I've seen in a long time...

Well, thank you Mr. Ball! Yes, I have always thought my posts to this
newsgroup were exceptional in every way but occasionally even I exceed
myself! And I thought I was casting my pearls before swine. I can see
now that I have misjudged you and that you for one can appreciate fine
writing and superior ideas. Now that you have vindicated everything I
have ever thought about myself, I am inspired to carry on in my
accustomed fashion with more determination than ever despite the nit
pickers.

Very best regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan
December 11th 03, 11:12 PM
(Kurt Fischer) wrote in message >...

> Edward Dolan > wrote:
>
>
> > Yes, I surely do appreciate what you say about it taking two to tango.
> > But you lose me on the lowest instincts comment. I don't really see it
> > that way. Everything is and should be grist for the mill.
>
> Of course it was irony with the inevitable grain of truth in it. I'm
> convinced we can't resolve problems without being sincere and seeing our
> own responsibility. You're right, you're not the only one who is
> enjoying these OT-Threads, everyone who responds and takes part is
> responsible for their growing, so I see no reason to blame only you for
> it. It's kind of an interaction, not your fault alone.

[...]

Kurt, your post to me and to the rest of the newsgroup is very good
and when I leave this newsgroup it will be for all the very good
reasons that you explain so well. However, I am not ready to leave
just yet. I am having too much fun poking and prodding everyone here.

When I review the posts on this newsgroup I find that much of what is
being posted on ARBR is just mindless banter, some good humored and
some not. Even though it is not OT it might just as well be. I am
going to continue to number myself among that 10% and when I see it
becoming too much I will cut back so that the OT will not overwhelm
the newsgroup. But by 10% I mean the number of thread subjects and not
the number of messages. If everyone would learn how to use their
newsreaders there would be no problem whatsoever. The fact is that
there is a certain percentage of us who enjoy OT and we do not see any
reason why it should matter to anyone else who does not like it. They
can ignore us or not as they will.

I am not going to respond to your post point by point because I have a
life away from the computer (believe it or not) and I can only devote
so much time to this. But know that in essence I do agree with you,
but we are not really causing any harm. It is all a tempest in a tea
cup.

Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan
December 11th 03, 11:25 PM
"skip" > wrote in message >...

> "Edward Dolan" > wrote in message
> om...
>
> > Apparently many of the old regulars are going over to something called
> bicycles
> > racing recreation. There is an oxymoron if I ever heard one. But I
> > wish them all god speed and the best of good posting where they can
> > all bond with one another without any interference from the likes of
> > me. In the meantime the rest of us will soldier on with our somewhat
> > contentious posting in the real world of ARBR.
> >
>
> The suggested migration of a.r.b.r. regulars to rec.bicycle.racing is
> attempted humor by Rocketman. Recumbent riders would not be welcomed in
> this newsgroup known for its contentiousness that is generally centered
> around bike racing matters, who is taking what drugs, personal sexuality,
> and other personal characteristics of the posters. Those guys have all the
> political sense of a Fabrizo Mazzoleni. But they would surely unite to heap
> abuse on a recumbent cyclist who had the misfortune of accidentally
> wandering into the newsgroup.
>
> skip


Skip, those rascals catch me every time because I am way to focused on
my own narrow interests. It is good that you are here to give some
perspective to all of this and to occasionally bring me back to the
real world. It did strike me as very strange that recumbent cyclists
would go to a cite with *racing* in it's name, but most on this
newsgroup are so into going fast on their recumbents that I thought it
was not impossible either. All in all, this is a very strange
newsgroup and anything is possible.

Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan
December 11th 03, 11:38 PM
wrote in message >...

[...]

> It's different on a forum that's made for the community, not a
> topic. Even there I learned that discussing political stuff (like
> the repercussions of 9-11) is a good way to get a flame war with
> Americans. Europe and the US come from so different angles, we
> start as friends and end up finding how different we are as people
> when it comes to politics. That's the second reason I steer clear
> of heavily political OT.
>
> It is obviously the same for republicans vs. democrats, but a
> liberals vs. conservatives fight is largely a US internal matter,
> and one that is not of much interest to us Europeans.

Risto, the old Repubs and the old Dems are about as dead as a door
nail. It is all conservatives and liberals now fighting it out for who
is going to prevail in this country. I think the Europeans are over
all more left of center than we Americans. It is extremely doubtful
that Americans will ever go that far to the left. I believe in fact
that we are moving in the opposite direction and that we are destined
to become one of the most conservative peoples on the face of the
earth (Mr. Sherman notwithstanding).

> Wonder how this group is going to turn out when we have some Arabs
> or Malaysians posting here?

I wonder if they even know what recumbents are?

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan
December 11th 03, 11:46 PM
"Rocketman" > wrote in message news:<lbRBb.359222$275.1178300@attbi_s53>...

> "skip" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Just zis Guy, you know?" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:04:36 -0600, "skip" > wrote:
> > >
> > > >But then only two hours earlier Rocketman's contribution toward making
> arbr
> > > >a
> > > >vital resource, increase S/N ratio, and to
> > > >better our state is reflected in this exchange:
>
> > > >> Republicans want to starve kids, kick old people out on the street,
> > > >> make poor people have to eat dog food to survive, poison the air,
> land
> > > >> and water and kill millions of American kids with your imperialist
> > > >> wars.
> > >
> > > Well, hell, I thought you were only complaining about *contentious*
> > > off-topic stuff ;-)
> > >
> > > Guy
> > > ===
> > > ** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony.
> > > http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk
> >
> > I'm not complaining, mind you (having contributed my share), only noting
> the
> > traces of *irony* in all of this.
>
> And this is helping in what way, other than as a self-serving display of
> tattle-tailing? Ah, that's what I thought.
>
> Maybe next time you can contribute something of value to our group.
>
> -Rocketman

Hey Rocketman! I thought you mentioned in a previous post of yours
that you enjoyed a bit of humor. Too bad you can't see it even when it
hits you square in the face. Skip is just about the only one on this
newsgroup that can make me laugh. He constantly plays on words and
ideas in a most subtle and original way. That is a most valuable
contribution to the group I would say.

I only wish you could make some equally valuable contribution to the
group instead of just all your bitching and whining which gets really
tiresome after awhile. And quit referring to the group as *our* group
for heaven's sake! No one has any proprietary interest in the group
except maybe the powers that be at Google.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

skip
December 12th 03, 12:37 AM
> wrote in message
...
> skip > wrote:
>
> : Really? Maybe things have changed. Or maybe it's your personal
demeanor -
> : you do seem to get along with most everyone and look for the best in
people.
> : Could you point me to one of your good experiences with a bent post
there?
> : My reference point is Jeff Potter's attempts to interest them in HPV
racing
> : awhile back. Admittedly it has been some time since I visited that
group.
>
> Try
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=recumbent+varis+group%3Arec.bicycles.racing&btnG=Google+Search&meta=group%3Drec.bicycles.racing
>
> alias
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ysvj
>
> I don't think they flamed me once. I also notice some very
> familiar posters from here. But maybe it's the bent topic that
> attracts them :-)
>
> --
> Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/
>

Thanks for providing the links. I think you are truly looking for the best
in people. I saw a good bit of recumbent spoofing in those threads. All
the Jeff Pooter posts were spoofs. Not good ones but spoofs nonetheless. I
found Jason Waddell to be a typical anti-benter from the racing group. Some
of Jason's posts can be found in the url listed in the More history of ARBR
thread you started today. For starters he leads with the following post and
then gets obsessively anti-bent afterwards:

:I wonder why they keep posting their crap here...hasn't r.b.racing
established
:itself as a anti-bent newsgroup?

:Jason Waddell

Ironically Jason's parents started riding bents. He refused to speak to
them and disowned them because of it as I recall. Hopefully he has now
managed to come to terms with seeing the bents in their garage.

skip

December 12th 03, 12:56 AM
Edward Dolan > wrote:
: real world. It did strike me as very strange that recumbent cyclists
: would go to a cite with *racing* in it's name, but most on this
: newsgroup are so into going fast on their recumbents that I thought it
: was not impossible either. All in all, this is a very strange
: newsgroup and anything is possible.

But you knew about low racers, streamliners, Battle Mountain and
(maybe even) Cycle Vision, didn't you?

Speed is often cited as one of the major advantages of bents, so
naturally there are those people who want to enjoy that aspect or
take it further. Not to mention that bent racing is not nearly as
serious as UCI events, though racing is also linked with bent
development (and promotion).

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/

Rocketman
December 12th 03, 06:04 AM
"skip" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Rocketman" > wrote in message
> news:lbRBb.359222$275.1178300@attbi_s53...
> >
> > "skip" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Just zis Guy, you know?" > wrote in
message
> > > ...
> > > > On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:04:36 -0600, "skip" > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >But then only two hours earlier Rocketman's contribution toward
> making
> > > arbr
> > > > >a
> > > > >vital resource, increase S/N ratio, and to
> > > > >better our state is reflected in this exchange:
> > > >
> > > > >> Republicans want to starve kids, kick old people out on the
street,
> > > > >> make poor people have to eat dog food to survive, poison the air,
> > land
> > > > >> and water and kill millions of American kids with your
imperialist
> > > > >> wars.
> > > >
> > > > Well, hell, I thought you were only complaining about *contentious*
> > > > off-topic stuff ;-)
> > > >
> > > > Guy
> > > > ===
> > > > ** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony.
> > > > http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk
> > >
> > > I'm not complaining, mind you (having contributed my share), only
noting
> > the
> > > traces of *irony* in all of this.
> >
> > And this is helping in what way, other than as a self-serving display of
> > tattle-tailing? Ah, that's what I thought.
> >
> > Maybe next time you can contribute something of value to our group.
> >
> > -Rocketman
> >
> >
> Rocketman I'm sorry you're unhappy about being exposed in a pot kettle
black
> deal, but the hypocrisy and irony of all this was so egregious I couldn't
> stop myself from pointing it out to those who seemingly have such a
> difficult time seeing it.

Nice job, Skipper! <pat on the head> That's a good dog!

> If you're going to continue posting in such an
> extreme political vein perhaps you should consider backing off the "it's
> all Dolan's fault" ragging you've been joining in on lately. Just a
> suggestion.

And how are you making things better with this personal attack? Do you have
an axe to grind like Mr. Dolan? Apparently so.

Rocketman

December 12th 03, 08:29 AM
Edward Dolan > wrote:
: is going to prevail in this country. I think the Europeans are over
: all more left of center than we Americans. It is extremely doubtful
: that Americans will ever go that far to the left. I believe in fact

It's you Americans who are all right of the center ;)

Maybe this is because serious left-wing thought arose at a point
in European history which the US didn't share any more. Anyways,
off-topic... ;p

:> Wonder how this group is going to turn out when we have some Arabs
:> or Malaysians posting here?

: I wonder if they even know what recumbents are?

Well cycling generally isn't that popular in the Arab world AFAIK.
But each culture has its geeks, and major groups of people get to
the Internet every other year.

Maybe it's funny that I see lots of Polish people and even
Russians and the occasional Malaysian on IRC, but very few here.
Then again, the IRCnet is also swarmed by Finnish people...

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/

December 12th 03, 10:59 AM
Edward Dolan > wrote:

: we are going through a bit of turbulence at the moment. But I am going
: to tone down my rhetoric some as I can see it might be a turn off for
: some.

That is rather advisable...

: I haven't read Mr.V., but it seems to me that a bike forum devoted to
: mountain bikes might be an entirely appropriate place to have a
: discussion about the impact of mountain bikes on wilderness values.

Maybe, though running counter to the fundamental basic assumptions
of a group can be risky.

: After looking at his web site (courtesy of Mr. Sherman), I don't think
: I would relish tangling with him, but I am fearless and would do so if
: I strongly disagreed with him.

He would ignore you, or at least not listen to you.

: I think you are probably a friendly sort of person and I am a hermit
: and have never in my life been able to understand what friends are
: good for.

Then you are exceptional... and that can be a limitation too...

: See my answer above. By the way, what is IRL?

In Real Life - a fairly common TLA (Three Letter Acronym) in online
speech AFAIK.

: I am not a troll. I have no interest in that. I think I am being
: mistaken for a troll because my language is immoderate. But I talk
: like this all the time. And so do most of the folks that I know here
: in small town Minnesota. Calling someone an idiot is almost a
: compliment and a term of endearment here. I do not see what all the
: fuss is about. Try to get used to me.

Well you certainly are not beyond any hope :-) I see more now...
It's a big world. But I think the intelligibility problem is
primarily yours, not of others.

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/

Just zis Guy, you know?
December 12th 03, 11:35 AM
On 9 Dec 2003 23:31:27 GMT,
wrote:

>Consider the case of Mr V. Somebody who values untainted wilderness
>might find his ideas interesting. But he is generally considered a
>nuisance, and people don't really pay attention to his message.

That's being rather charitable to Vandespamm. What actually happens
is that he posts reams of crap, he SHOUTS and calls mountain bikers
LIARS - he is a hysterical loon who was chucked out of the Sierra Club
for abuse of process or some such. He doesn't listen to anybody, he
uses a non-standard quotation character and he doesn't trim, so he
alone was responsible for nearly half the message data volume on that
group before I plonked him. Any discussion with Vandespamm is a
dialogue of the deaf, he won't answer civil questions if they are
asked. Maybe he did at one time and does again now, but in the time
when I read what he said he certainly didn't.

It has been suggested that Vandespamm is actually a bot.

It's kind of fun playing Operation Spiked Pit with him sometimes, but
that is the limit of his value IMO.

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk

Edward Dolan
December 12th 03, 07:45 PM
wrote in message >...

> Edward Dolan > wrote:

[...]

> : I am not a troll. I have no interest in that. I think I am being
> : mistaken for a troll because my language is immoderate. But I talk
> : like this all the time. And so do most of the folks that I know here
> : in small town Minnesota. Calling someone an idiot is almost a
> : compliment and a term of endearment here. I do not see what all the
> : fuss is about. Try to get used to me.
>
> Well you certainly are not beyond any hope :-) I see more now...
> It's a big world. But I think the intelligibility problem is
> primarily yours, not of others.

Yes, perhaps so, but you and I understand one another fairly well and
that is universally the case with other rational, intelligent folks.
It is only the mad dog liberals who can't seem to get on my wave
length. Believe me, it is because of WHAT I am saying and not HOW I am
saying it.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

skip
December 12th 03, 09:49 PM
"Rocketman" > wrote in message
news:g%bCb.369610$ao4.1241794@attbi_s51...
>
> Nice job, Skipper! <pat on the head> That's a good dog!
>
> And how are you making things better with this personal attack? Do you
have
> an axe to grind like Mr. Dolan? Apparently so.
>
> Rocketman
>
>
Nothing personal Rocketman. I haven't a clue as to who you are. Your post
just happened to be handy for making the point to those who seem blinded to
the fact that Ed Dolan isn't the sole poster of flaming off topic political
stuff on a.r.b.r. I'm sorry if that hurt your feelings.

But still, if you are wanting to do the same things Ed Dolan is being
accused of it might be a bit disingenuous for you to be riding on the Let's
Get Ed bandwagon. Perhaps you should follow Mr. Sherman's lead. He ducked
out when the mob started forming.

best wishes from your best friend skipper the good dog

Just zis Guy, you know?
December 12th 03, 10:15 PM
On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:49:37 -0600, "skip" > wrote:

>Nothing personal Rocketman. I haven't a clue as to who you are. Your post
>just happened to be handy for making the point to those who seem blinded to
>the fact that Ed Dolan isn't the sole poster of flaming off topic political
>stuff on a.r.b.r. I'm sorry if that hurt your feelings.

Who said Ed was the sole offender? Not me. I put my hands up to
fuelling the flames. I gave the reason why I find ed uniquely
irritating, that his sole authority is the American Journal of Because
I Said So, but I reverted to lurking because it all got so tiresome.

Is this the five pound argument?

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk

skip
December 12th 03, 10:37 PM
"Just zis Guy, you know?" > wrote in message
...<snip>

> Who said Ed was the sole offender? Not me. I put my hands up to
> fuelling the flames.

No not you.


> Is this the five pound argument?
>

huh? Is this a Brittish expression? I'm from the backwoods. You'll have
to explain it to me. Sorry.

skip

Just zis Guy, you know?
December 12th 03, 11:26 PM
On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:37:18 -0600, "skip" > wrote:

>> Is this the five pound argument?

>huh? Is this a Brittish expression? I'm from the backwoods. You'll have
>to explain it to me. Sorry.

The Monty Python argument sketch. As you say, It's A Brit Thang ;-)

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk

Kurt Fischer
December 13th 03, 12:26 AM
Edward Dolan > wrote:

[...]

> However, I am not ready to leave just yet. I am having too much fun
> poking and prodding everyone here.

If that's true, then you're a real troll, a relatively civil one,
though. You are here for the sheer pleasure of provoking. Sort of Usenet
rebel, giving a damn about rules, topics and such. Think free - post
free. I always knew deep in your heart you are a true liberal. Or even
libertine? ;-)


> [...] I am going to continue to number myself among that 10% and when I see it
> becoming too much I will cut back so that the OT will not overwhelm the
> newsgroup.

That's a very wise decision. Let's hope your intention will survive the
next Sunset. ;-)


> If everyone would learn how to use their newsreaders there would be no problem
> whatsoever.

That's right. I've never had any problems with you or Tom, I have a
working newsreader and know how to handle it. But please keep in mind
that there are many here who don't even know about the existence of
proper newsreaders, so your OT-quarrels will cause side-effects
disturbing the whole group if driven too far. Therefore I vote for
quality, not quantity. ;-)

Regards
Kurt

harv
December 13th 03, 12:50 AM
I'm sorry, this is abuse. Arguments are down the hall. (memory dims as age
advances, so you'll have to excuse the lack of exact Python dialogue.
Arguments was another brilliant sketch.)
"Just zis Guy, you know?" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:37:18 -0600, "skip" > wrote:
>
> >> Is this the five pound argument?
>
> >huh? Is this a Brittish expression? I'm from the backwoods. You'll
have
> >to explain it to me. Sorry.
>
> The Monty Python argument sketch. As you say, It's A Brit Thang ;-)
>
> Guy
> ===
> May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
> http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk

harv
December 13th 03, 01:02 AM
Actually, I think Tom has to go afield in his capacity as a civil engineer.
I don't think he'd back away from electronic brickbats and a surly mob of
newsgroupies wielding smoky torches and wooden pitchforks. However for him
to waste his intellect trying to persuade E.D.that his aguments are vacuous
is like King Arthur trying to convince the Black Knight that his wounds are
mortal. (sketch in Monty Python's The Holy Grail).
"skip" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Rocketman" > wrote in message
> news:g%bCb.369610$ao4.1241794@attbi_s51...
> >
> > Nice job, Skipper! <pat on the head> That's a good dog!
> >
> > And how are you making things better with this personal attack? Do you
> have
> > an axe to grind like Mr. Dolan? Apparently so.
> >
> > Rocketman
> >
> >
> Nothing personal Rocketman. I haven't a clue as to who you are. Your
post
> just happened to be handy for making the point to those who seem blinded
to
> the fact that Ed Dolan isn't the sole poster of flaming off topic
political
> stuff on a.r.b.r. I'm sorry if that hurt your feelings.
>
> But still, if you are wanting to do the same things Ed Dolan is being
> accused of it might be a bit disingenuous for you to be riding on the
Let's
> Get Ed bandwagon. Perhaps you should follow Mr. Sherman's lead. He ducked
> out when the mob started forming.
>
> best wishes from your best friend skipper the good dog
>
>

Edward Dolan
December 13th 03, 05:49 AM
(Kurt Fischer) wrote in message >...

> Edward Dolan > wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > However, I am not ready to leave just yet. I am having too much fun
> > poking and prodding everyone here.
>
> If that's true, then you're a real troll, a relatively civil one,
> though. You are here for the sheer pleasure of provoking. Sort of Usenet
> rebel, giving a damn about rules, topics and such. Think free - post
> free. I always knew deep in your heart you are a true liberal. Or even
> libertine? ;-)

There is an enormous amount of banter prevailing here on this
newsgroup. I think that is what always happens when you have a regular
contingent who have been writing back and forth for many years. I am
entering into this banter in my own inimitable way. But there are
zingers connected with my posts and I do not care about making friends
or being popular. I do admit I like to test my wits here against all
the other "wits". I think I may border on being a troll, but I am not
a real troll because I am always saying more or less what I believe to
be true. And I am giving one and all my true personality and not
pretending to be something that I am not.

> > [...] I am going to continue to number myself among that 10% and when I see it
> > becoming too much I will cut back so that the OT will not overwhelm the
> > newsgroup.
>
> That's a very wise decision. Let's hope your intention will survive the
> next Sunset. ;-)

Yes, I am always making resolutions and then someone will post
something that will set me off. But my intentions are noble.

> > If everyone would learn how to use their newsreaders there would be no problem
> > whatsoever.
>
> That's right. I've never had any problems with you or Tom, I have a
> working newsreader and know how to handle it. But please keep in mind
> that there are many here who don't even know about the existence of
> proper newsreaders, so your OT-quarrels will cause side-effects
> disturbing the whole group if driven too far. Therefore I vote for
> quality, not quantity. ;-)

I do not have any experience with newsreaders except for some with my
OE. I prefer the Google web page and that causes me absolutely no
problems at all. I believe about two OT subject threads per 25 is
about right and should never be a problem for anyone.

But I can't believe how these subject threads multiply when there is
no good reason why they should. I believe once I find two good OT
threads I will restrict all my posts to those particular threads and
not be jumping around to other threads no matter how egregious the
insults. I am convinced that there are many here who simply do not
know how to post via Google. You absolutely cannot change the subject
heading as all that does is cause another thread and **** everyone
off even more than they already are. I hate all this proliferation
more than anybody.

Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

skip
December 13th 03, 06:39 AM
Ah. Sherman is afield. Glad to hear he's not serving as a human shield for
some insurgent group in I**q. That would have been just too vacuous for
words.

"skip"

"harv" > wrote in message
...
> Actually, I think Tom has to go afield in his capacity as a civil
engineer.
> I don't think he'd back away from electronic brickbats and a surly mob of
> newsgroupies wielding smoky torches and wooden pitchforks. However for him
> to waste his intellect trying to persuade E.D.that his aguments are
vacuous
> is like King Arthur trying to convince the Black Knight that his wounds
are
> mortal. (sketch in Monty Python's The Holy Grail).

Tom Sherman
December 13th 03, 06:40 AM
Porquer Torquer wrote:
> ...
> > Tom Sherman, for one, posts many liberal OT posts.
>
> Horrors! We must find out where Tom lives! Where'd I put my torch and
> pitchfork from the good ole brownshirt days?!?!?!...

These days I am mostly staying in motels in the far west Chicago
suburbs. I did spend a couple of days recently at the Elgin Mental
Health Center, however. [1]

[1] Work related - sorry to disappoint those who were hoping I had been
declared criminally insane. ;)

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

Tom Sherman
December 13th 03, 06:51 AM
derek wrote:
> ...
> A sure sign that this group has gone to the dogs is the fact that all
> the women have been chased off. Or anyone with any level of sensibility
> for that matter. I remember the good old days when there were posts
> by the likes of Beth, or Marci, or Melanie, and I am sure I am leaving
> out others. I miss folks with a good sense of humor like Scott, or
> those that have a passion for cycling and broad experience and the
> ability to express themselves beautifully like Kent Peterson....

Beth went to the dogs (a Google search reveals recent posts by her on
rec.pets.dogs.behavior). Marci has posted recently. Melanie disappeared
from a.r.b.r. long before most of the OT flamewars started (and shortly
after purchasing a Longbikes Eliminator and finding the performance to
be somewhat disappointing compared to her Lightning Stealth).

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

Tom Sherman
December 13th 03, 06:56 AM
Rocketman wrote:
> ... I'm warning you, Ed Dolan! I know where you live!...

So do I, and I will avoid the area like George W. Bush avoided Air
National Guard bases during his last year of enrollment in that service.

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

Tom Sherman
December 13th 03, 07:00 AM
Kurt Fischer wrote:
> ... These OT-posts
> attract attention because we are all human beings after all, it's kind
> of an ambivalent dilemma: On the one hand we feel we should stay away
> from this threads, but on the other they are corresponding to our
> lowest instincts. Many of us stare fascinated at you and your
> counterparts awaiting eagerly the next sensations of your political
> mud-wrestling....

Some of us just feel a need to correct misinformation.

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

Tom Sherman
December 13th 03, 07:14 AM
Kurt Fischer wrote:
> ...
> The world of recumbency is growing fast, new models every year, they
> become more and more affordable and trikes are gaining rapidly. One
> should think there are subjects enough to discuss without the need for
> digressing to political themes....

There are some who have stated that postings on recumbent trikes are
off-topic and not a proper subject for discussion on
alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent.

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth
Blue Earth Cycles Dragonflyer :)

Tom Sherman
December 13th 03, 07:22 AM
Kurt Fischer wrote:
> ...
> That's a very wise decision. Let's hope your intention will survive the
> next Sunset. ;-)

I care not for Mr. Dolan's intentions, but I plan to keep on posting
about my Sunset [1]. It is on-topic, after all. ;)

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth
Red Earth Cycles Sunset Lowracer [TM] :)

[1] < http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/sunset/Sunset001.jpg >

Tom Sherman
December 13th 03, 07:37 AM
wrote:
> ...
> Consider the case of Mr V. Somebody who values untainted wilderness
> might find his ideas interesting. But he is generally considered a
> nuisance, and people don't really pay attention to his message. They
> just tell him to go away or refute him in abusive turns of speech. (The
> best tactic would be to ignore, of course, he wouldn't really listen
> either.) Do you think Mr. V is ok? His cause doesn't even matter, it's
> just simply wrong what he is doing.

Mr. V's tactics reputedly go beyond Usenet postings. He has reportedly
engaged in such tactics as "email bombing" listserves, forging emails
using others email addresses (in a attempt to get them kicked off their
ISP or in the case of work email addresses, disciplined at work) and
other foul play. If these allegations are true, it would explain why Mr.
V is so hated on Usenet.

> : Don't ever go to a newsgroup for friendship! Even when you think you
> : have found it, it is an illusion. This is cyberspace and it is for the
> : exchange of words only. There is reality and then there is the
> : Internet. Don't ever confuse the two.
>
> Not sound advice, IMHO. Bent riders can be friends online, and
> more so IRL. I have found bent riders to be a very nice
> international community, like a big family. People will help
> others in need and stick together for mutual gain....

I know over 10 recumbent riders [1] in person who I first "met" through
online discussion.

[1] No names, in case they wish to disavow the association.

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

Tom Sherman
December 13th 03, 07:47 AM
Fabrizio Mazzoleni wrote:
>
> "Al Kubeluis" > wrote in message >...
> > Hello Bikers,
> > I have practically stopped using arbr because of off topic stuff and
> > personal attacks and nit picking. OT has almost destroyed arbr.
> >
> I hear you, this place has gone to the dogs now that those lamer
> benter types took over and ran out all us euro type roadies.

Yes, even the president of the Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club admitted to
being interest in getting a lightweight, high performance recumbent.

Don't worry Fabrizio, someday you will be able to ride your recumbent in
front of your friends without them ridiculing you. Won't it be a relief
to come out of the closet and get off that uncomfortable saddle?

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

Tom Sherman
December 13th 03, 07:51 AM
Mikael Seierup wrote:
>
> I'm _not_ trolling here but you sorta forgot to add
> "Don't contribute to threads about the sad state of the group
> or drama queen farewell threads."...

And Mr. Seierup contributes to a "sad state of the group" thread. ;)

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

Tom Sherman
December 13th 03, 08:03 AM
Hellbent Rick wrote:
> ... It's not the people here
> expressing their off-topic, bed-wetting political views, it's stupid
> subjects such as, " I place a catheter on my penis so that I can relieve
> myself without stopping to **** like a 'normal human being'. So who's going
> to 'One-up' on that statement and confess, "Well I too have a catheter and
> have even made a hole in the bottom of my seat so that I can crap heehee,
> good thing I got Planet bike fenders,heeehee." At first glance these
> statements sound hilarious, but these people are dead serious!!...

I believe that Mr. Horwitz has just cost himself several sales to the
"excretion in motion" crowd.

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

Tom Sherman
December 13th 03, 08:19 AM
Rocketman wrote:
> ...
> Religious NG's are the worst for trolls! Maybe the Church of RANS
> (did I spel it rite, Tom? ;-) is close enough.

Most people spell RANS correctly, lack of complete capitalization is the
usual error.

> Looking forward to a full review of the new Challenge Taifun 20/26
> (what's it called again?) That one is on the top of my 2004 purchase
> list, even if I can't remember the name.

Challenge Fujin.
<http://www.challenge-ligfietsen.nl/ch-01/pages/images/fujin.jpg>.

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

Tom Sherman
December 13th 03, 08:23 AM
Rocketman wrote:
> ...
> Yes, Bryan contributes a great deal. His stalker (cough-Ed-cough) is
> occasionally humorous; but more often not very funny....

I would not assume it is Ed "last name synonymous with a distilled
alcoholic beverage". These assumptions have a way of being wrong.

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

Tom Sherman
December 13th 03, 08:31 AM
skip wrote:
> ...
> But still, if you are wanting to do the same things Ed Dolan is being
> accused of it might be a bit disingenuous for you to be riding on the Let's
> Get Ed bandwagon. Perhaps you should follow Mr. Sherman's lead. He ducked
> out when the mob started forming.

Actually, I have been in exile in purgatory, er DuPage County, Illinois
(an example of suburban sprawl gone wrong, at least from a cyclist's
point of view).

As for Mr. Dolan, I have provided him with enough opportunities to
discredit himself as someone who rants opinions as facts, but never has
any facts to back up his opinions. Since he has copiously availed
himself of these opportunities, I see no reason to pay further attention
to him. As the evidence of his posts indicate, he is the one obsessed
with me (considering the frequency with which he mentions my name, even
when I am not involved in the discussion), not I with him.

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

Tom Sherman
December 13th 03, 08:37 AM
harv wrote:
>
> Actually, I think Tom has to go afield in his capacity as a civil engineer.

I was in Harv's back yard this week (Elgin, Aurora and Naperville). And
who said I was civil? ;)

> I don't think he'd back away from electronic brickbats and a surly mob of
> newsgroupies wielding smoky torches and wooden pitchforks. However for him
> to waste his intellect trying to persuade E.D.that his aguments are vacuous
> is like King Arthur trying to convince the Black Knight that his wounds are
> mortal. (sketch in Monty Python's The Holy Grail).

[King Arthur music]
[music stops]
BLACK KNIGHT:
Aaaagh!
[King Arthur music]
[music stops]
BLACK KNIGHT:
Aaagh!
GREEN KNIGHT:
Ooh!
[King Arthur music]
[music stops]
[stab]
BLACK KNIGHT:
Aagh!
GREEN KNIGHT:
Oh!
[King Arthur music]
Ooh! Uuh.
[music stops]
BLACK KNIGHT:
Aaaagh!
[clang]
BLACK KNIGHT and GREEN KNIGHT:
Agh!, oh!, etc.
GREEN KNIGHT:
Aaaaaah! Aaaaaaaaah!
[woosh]
[BLACK KNIGHT kills GREEN KNIGHT]
[thud]
[scrape]
BLACK KNIGHT:
Umm!
[clop clop clop]
ARTHUR:
You fight with the strength of many men, Sir Knight.
[pause]
I am Arthur, King of the Britons.
[pause]
I seek the finest and the bravest knights in the land to join me in
my court at Camelot.
[pause]
You have proved yourself worthy. Will you join me?
[pause]
You make me sad. So be it. Come, Patsy.
BLACK KNIGHT:
None shall pass.
ARTHUR:
What?
BLACK KNIGHT:
None shall pass.
ARTHUR:
I have no quarrel with you, good Sir Knight, but I must cross this
bridge.
BLACK KNIGHT:
Then you shall die.
ARTHUR:
I command you, as King of the Britons, to stand aside!
BLACK KNIGHT:
I move for no man.
ARTHUR:
So be it!
ARTHUR and BLACK KNIGHT:
Aaah!, hiyaah!, etc.
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's left arm off]

ARTHUR:
Now stand aside, worthy adversary.
BLACK KNIGHT:
'Tis but a scratch.
ARTHUR:
A scratch? Your arm's off!
BLACK KNIGHT:
No, it isn't.
ARTHUR:
Well, what's that, then?
BLACK KNIGHT:
I've had worse.
ARTHUR:
You liar!
BLACK KNIGHT:
Come on, you pansy!
[clang]
Huyah!
[clang]
Hiyaah!
[clang]
Aaaaaaaah!
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's right arm off]

ARTHUR:
Victory is mine!
[kneeling]
We thank Thee Lord, that in Thy mer--
BLACK KNIGHT:
Hah!
[kick]
Come on, then.
ARTHUR:
What?
BLACK KNIGHT:
Have at you!
[kick]
ARTHUR:
Eh. You are indeed brave, Sir Knight, but the fight is mine.
BLACK KNIGHT:
Oh, had enough, eh?
ARTHUR:
Look, you stupid *******. You've got no arms left.
BLACK KNIGHT:
Yes, I have.
ARTHUR:
Look!
BLACK KNIGHT:
Just a flesh wound.
[kick]
ARTHUR:
Look, stop that.
BLACK KNIGHT:
Chicken!
[kick]
Chickennn!
ARTHUR:
Look, I'll have your leg.
[kick]
Right!
[whop]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's right leg off]

BLACK KNIGHT:
Right. I'll do you for that!
ARTHUR:
You'll what?
BLACK KNIGHT:
Come here!
ARTHUR:
What are you going to do, bleed on me?
BLACK KNIGHT:
I'm invincible!
ARTHUR:
You're a looney.
BLACK KNIGHT:
The Black Knight always triumphs! Have at you! Come on, then.
[whop]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's last leg off]

BLACK KNIGHT:
Oh? All right, we'll call it a draw.
ARTHUR:
Come, Patsy.
BLACK KNIGHT:
Oh. Oh, I see. Running away, eh? You yellow *******s! Come back
here and take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off!

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

Tom Sherman
December 13th 03, 08:46 AM
$kip wrote:
>
> The suggested migration of a.r.b.r. regulars to rec.bicycle.racing is
> attempted humor by Rocketman. Recumbent riders would not be welcomed in
> this newsgroup known for its contentiousness that is generally centered
> around bike racing matters, who is taking what drugs, personal sexuality,
> and other personal characteristics of the posters. Those guys have all the
> political sense of a Fabrizo Mazzoleni.

But in general the r.b.r. regulars are less humorous than Fabby is.

> But they would surely unite to heap abuse on a recumbent cyclist who
> had the misfortune of accidentally wandering into the newsgroup.

When Martin Krieg cross-posted an announcement about the Cherry Pie
Criterium to both a.r.b.r and r.b.r., a quite entertaining flame war
ensued.

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

Kurt Fischer
December 13th 03, 10:47 AM
Edward Dolan > wrote:


[...]

> I do admit I like to test my wits here against all the other "wits". I think I
> may border on being a troll, but I am not a real troll because I am always
> saying more or less what I believe to be true. And I am giving one and all my
> true personality and not pretending to be something that I am not.

Yes, you are posting under your own name, you don't change personalities
AFAIK, usually you don't attack without reason, you're staying mostly in
your threads and the form of your postings is first class. But there are
certain tendencies of trolling in your behavior as there are liberal or
chaotic aspects in your personality, and that's another reason why I'm
considering it a bad idea to divide this group - or the world for that
matter - into conservatives and liberals, black and white, good and bad.
After all there's a little troll in everyone of us.



> You absolutely cannot change the subject heading as all that does is cause
> another thread and **** everyone off even more than they already are. I hate
> all this proliferation more than anybody.

It's true, changing the subject may cause problems, but nevertheless
it's considered good manner in Usenet to inform the readers about the
actual content of the thread as soon as the discussion goes irreversibly
away from the old subject. Try to see it with the eyes of a librarian:
When you buy a book and the cover says it's about the cultivation of
roses, would you be happy to find out at home it's actually about dogs?
;-)

But you're right, changing the subject should be done carefully, or the
confusion will be even greater than before.


Regards,
Kurt - Bavaria, Germany (just in case anyone cares to know ;-) )

Bryan Ball
December 13th 03, 11:14 AM
90% certain that my Internet nemesis is not Ed Gin. Also 90% certain I know
who it ACTUALLY is. Also about 75% certain that I don't really give rat's
a$$ anymore.


"Tom Sherman" > wrote in message
...
>
> Rocketman wrote:
> > ...
> > Yes, Bryan contributes a great deal. His stalker (cough-Ed-cough) is
> > occasionally humorous; but more often not very funny....
>
> I would not assume it is Ed "last name synonymous with a distilled
> alcoholic beverage". These assumptions have a way of being wrong.
>
> Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

Just zis Guy, you know?
December 13th 03, 12:21 PM
On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 00:37:48 -0600, Tom Sherman
> wrote:

>Mr. V's tactics reputedly go beyond Usenet postings.

It might explain why he was bounced out of the Sierra Club. But his
real problem is that his ideal human-free wilderness is only a
mountain biker free wilderness. He sees no problem with humans
driving into the wilderness in 4x4s and wandering round, it's only
when they have bikes they become an issue for him.

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk

EVSolutions
December 13th 03, 03:44 PM
Tom
Canyou email a pic of the Dragonflyer, when my PS crashed all my Dragonflyer
pics went to heaven and I have been missing my view of the trike. The pic
showing the MAXXIS label on the tires is good.

Joshua
*****
"Tom Sherman" > wrote in message
...
>
> $kip wrote:
> >
> > The suggested migration of a.r.b.r. regulars to rec.bicycle.racing is
> > attempted humor by Rocketman. Recumbent riders would not be welcomed
in
> > this newsgroup known for its contentiousness that is generally centered
> > around bike racing matters, who is taking what drugs, personal
sexuality,
> > and other personal characteristics of the posters. Those guys have all
the
> > political sense of a Fabrizo Mazzoleni.
>
> But in general the r.b.r. regulars are less humorous than Fabby is.
>
> > But they would surely unite to heap abuse on a recumbent cyclist who
> > had the misfortune of accidentally wandering into the newsgroup.
>
> When Martin Krieg cross-posted an announcement about the Cherry Pie
> Criterium to both a.r.b.r and r.b.r., a quite entertaining flame war
> ensued.
>
> Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

Tom Sherman
December 13th 03, 04:08 PM
"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote:
>
> On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 00:37:48 -0600, Tom Sherman
> > wrote:
>
> >Mr. V's tactics reputedly go beyond Usenet postings.
>
> It might explain why he was bounced out of the Sierra Club. But his
> real problem is that his ideal human-free wilderness is only a
> mountain biker free wilderness. He sees no problem with humans
> driving into the wilderness in 4x4s and wandering round, it's only
> when they have bikes they become an issue for him.

??? According to his website, Mr. V hates personal use of motor
vehicles. He also believes that many areas should be off limits even to
hikers.

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

Tom Sherman
December 13th 03, 04:47 PM
EVSolutions wrote:
>
> Tom
> Canyou email a pic of the Dragonflyer, when my PS crashed all my Dragonflyer
> pics went to heaven and I have been missing my view of the trike. The pic
> showing the MAXXIS label on the tires is good.
>
> Joshua

I have started a new thread to answer this [Earth Cycles Dragonflyer
Pictures].

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

Kurt Fischer
December 13th 03, 06:25 PM
Edward Dolan > wrote:


> I have several trikes. The secret to enjoying trikes is to realize
> that you are going to be slower on them and not to care about that. If
> you want the ultimate speed, you had better stick to 2 wheelers.

In my experience it's in the first line the weight, which is determining
the speed, not the number of wheels, at least in our hilly area. I'm
riding a rather hefty utility trike in winter, the Antrotech[1].
It weighs about 23kg(51lbs) while my SWB only has a few pounds less.
It's Dutch, that explains all. ;-)

Given the same efforts I'd say the speed is overall comparable, at least
on good roads. My trike seems to roll very well on asphalt with high
pressure tires, on rough roads or in winter on snow things are different
according to the significantly higher rolling resistance, but the heck,
I wouldn't want to ride my SWB on ice or frozen snow.

I'm quite sure I'd be faster on a low and light trike like the
Windcheetah than in comparison on my SWB, even uphill. The same is true
if velomobiles come into the play, which are basically also trikes. At
least on the flats and under windy conditions Dutch velomobiles as the
Mango, Quest[2] or Versatile[3] are faster than most other recumbents.
It's hard to imagine, but even on slightly hilly terrain, a Quest
weighing 30+kg is faster than a light semi-low, obviously aerodynamics
rule in this case. When it comes to real mountains things may change,
but there goes the story of Ymte Sybrandij who rode with a friend over
the Alps from the Netherlands to Italy, both on(in) heavily loaded
Alleweders[4] weighing 50+kg(111lbs). But then, Ymte is a killer. ;-)

Regards,
Kurt

[1] http://anthrotech.de/
[2] http://velomobiel.nl (seems not to work at the moment)
[3] http://www.flevobike.nl/indexmodellen.html
[4] http://home.nikocity.de/jp/alleweder/

Kurt Fischer
December 13th 03, 06:25 PM
Tom Sherman > wrote:


> Some of us just feel a need to correct misinformation.

Yes, I can understand it, but please keep some things in mind:

First, there is only one absolute truth on this earth: there is no
absolute truth on this earth.(It's a contradiction, I know). ;-)
So almost any information comes sooner or later down to opinions,
beliefs, judgments and personal experiences. That's true for recumbents
- which bent is best, fastest, climbs best... - and more so for politics
and religion.

Second it's a fact that a lot of people only see what they want to see.
Confronted with any kind of facts or information they don't like, they
simply ignore them and keep on thinking and acting like before.

And as I told already Ed before, each of your responses will give him a
welcomed opportunity to deny your facts and opinions and to present two
or more new theses instead. Such "Hydra"-games are hardly to win and
will frustrate sooner or later big parts of the group.

Most of us know meanwhile the basic positions of the main opponents, a
clear statement now and then goes in order, but I can't see any good in
repeating them again and again till it gets boring.

I see you're showing a slight tendency towards pedantry[1], so I'm
probably writing this in vain. I'm just throwing in another opinion in
this game, that's all.

Regards,
Kurt

[1] While I'm obviously showing a slight tendency towards understatement
;-)

Just zis Guy, you know?
December 13th 03, 10:42 PM
On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 09:08:05 -0600, Tom Sherman
> wrote:

>??? According to his website, Mr. V hates personal use of motor
>vehicles. He also believes that many areas should be off limits even to
>hikers.

He made comments to that effect on r.b.s. I don't think he's terribly
consistent. He is, however, a prolific distorter.

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk

Edward Dolan
December 14th 03, 05:23 AM
Tom Sherman > wrote in message >...

> skip wrote:
> > ...
> > But still, if you are wanting to do the same things Ed Dolan is being
> > accused of it might be a bit disingenuous for you to be riding on the Let's
> > Get Ed bandwagon. Perhaps you should follow Mr. Sherman's lead. He ducked
> > out when the mob started forming.
>
> Actually, I have been in exile in purgatory, er DuPage County, Illinois
> (an example of suburban sprawl gone wrong, at least from a cyclist's
> point of view).
>
> As for Mr. Dolan, I have provided him with enough opportunities to
> discredit himself as someone who rants opinions as facts, but never has
> any facts to back up his opinions. Since he has copiously availed
> himself of these opportunities, I see no reason to pay further attention
> to him. As the evidence of his posts indicate, he is the one obsessed
> with me (considering the frequency with which he mentions my name, even
> when I am not involved in the discussion), not I with him.
>
> Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

No, you have just "mentioned" me yet once again - and so it shall
always be. I have your number and I know just what to say to get a
rise out of you. But now that I know that it annoys you to have me
mention you (always in a derogatory way too I can assure you) in posts
that are not directly responsive to you, I shall do it more than ever
and with relish. We will see whether or not you can restrain yourself
from replying.

You have become the liberal icon for this newsgroup and so it is
always proper and correct to bring you into any discussion where the
subject is ARBR liberals. You have worked tirelessly over the years
to become the liberal big gun here that we conservatives love to hate.
A liberal like GeoB (Barry) is so far left that it is easy for
everyone to dismiss him as the kook that he is. You are not quite so
far left and so it takes someone like me to expose you for the kook
that you are.

I think I have told you repeatedly what you can do with your facts and
evidence since they are always bogus and nothing but liberal
propaganda. The thought of you correcting anyone else's political
views by dredging up your so-called facts and evidence is laughable.
You are nothing but a pedant!

But I will admit, your posts to this newsgroup are lately so
incredibly stupid that you are not giving me any opportunities at all
to take you on. You are increasingly becoming irrelevant and foolish.
All you know how to do lately is idiotic banter. But whether banter or
serious, the idiocy is always there. That will never go away, but
since I have no interest in your idiotic banter, it is indeed possible
that I will have less and less to say about you in the future. I will
have to fight this tendency and remember what I owe you. My enmity.

There are other liberals on this newsgroup who are far more sane and
reasonable than you could ever hope to be. Frankly, there has got to
be something wrong with the way your brain works. Or maybe it is a
personality deficit. Whatever it is, you are one really weird
character.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

December 14th 03, 07:17 AM
Edward Dolan > wrote:

: Yes, I have been saying this from day one, but then a newbie comes
: along and does the "logical" thing but it is to the detriment of the
: newsgroup as a whole. Believe you me, I could classify and catalog
: these threads on ARBR like you wouldn't believe, but it would serve no
: purpose because as soon as a thread is posted everyone quickly gets
: used to it and is able to work with it easily. Logic would be
: counterproductive.

Cataloguing could be useful for archiving as nobody can be
familiar with all the threads in the archives. But then again a
search engine might be just as useful. Maybe if one combined them
both...

Could mailing list or newsgroup archives serve as a bent FAQ or
knowledge base? I'm thinking of a system where one could quickly
find solutions for the various bent issues.

The system could have following components:
1. Raw data (discussion articles and threads, maybe also web pages)
2. The basic search engine (or any improvements like Google)
3. Cataloguing done by administrator or editor level users (sorta like
http://dmoz.org/about.html)
4. Ratings done by the users of the system

It could be a hypertext system with links...

Maybe it would work as a web-based engine. We would have the
questions catalogued by administrators. Then we add the links to
the raw data in WWW (the archives are there too). Finally we let
the users rank how good solutions the various units of raw data
are to the given question.

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/

Edward Dolan
December 14th 03, 01:15 PM
(Kurt Fischer) wrote in message >...

> Edward Dolan > wrote:
>
> > I have several trikes. The secret to enjoying trikes is to realize
> > that you are going to be slower on them and not to care about that. If
> > you want the ultimate speed, you had better stick to 2 wheelers.
>
> In my experience it's in the first line the weight, which is determining
> the speed, not the number of wheels, at least in our hilly area. I'm
> riding a rather hefty utility trike in winter, the Antrotech[1].
> It weighs about 23kg(51lbs) while my SWB only has a few pounds less.
> It's Dutch, that explains all. ;-)
>
> Given the same efforts I'd say the speed is overall comparable, at least
> on good roads. My trike seems to roll very well on asphalt with high
> pressure tires, on rough roads or in winter on snow things are different
> according to the significantly higher rolling resistance, but the heck,
> I wouldn't want to ride my SWB on ice or frozen snow.
>
> I'm quite sure I'd be faster on a low and light trike like the
> Windcheetah than in comparison on my SWB, even uphill. The same is true
> if velomobiles come into the play, which are basically also trikes. At
> least on the flats and under windy conditions Dutch velomobiles as the
> Mango, Quest[2] or Versatile[3] are faster than most other recumbents.
> It's hard to imagine, but even on slightly hilly terrain, a Quest
> weighing 30+kg is faster than a light semi-low, obviously aerodynamics
> rule in this case. When it comes to real mountains things may change,
> but there goes the story of Ymte Sybrandij who rode with a friend over
> the Alps from the Netherlands to Italy, both on(in) heavily loaded
> Alleweders[4] weighing 50+kg(111lbs). But then, Ymte is a killer. ;-)

Kurt, the minute you get into fairings, especially full body fairings,
everything changes drastically. You simply cannot compare full body
faired bikes with unfaired bikes.

I have seen plenty of guys riding trikes who are amazingly fast.
Obviously the rider has a lot to do with this, but still it has aways
been my very strong impression that those trikers who are fast are
working very hard in order to be fast. I do not think a trike can ever
be faster than a 2 wheeler everything else being equal. This is an
old topic on ARBR and has been discussed many times. I will admit I
always seem faster on my trikes because I am so low to the ground -
and then some little old lady on a mountain bike passes me and I
realize I am not as fast as I thought I was.

Thanks for those sites showing fully faired body trikes. I will never
get one but it is fun to dream about them.

Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan
December 14th 03, 01:34 PM
wrote in message >...

> Edward Dolan > wrote:
>
> : Yes, I have been saying this from day one, but then a newbie comes
> : along and does the "logical" thing but it is to the detriment of the
> : newsgroup as a whole. Believe you me, I could classify and catalog
> : these threads on ARBR like you wouldn't believe, but it would serve no
> : purpose because as soon as a thread is posted everyone quickly gets
> : used to it and is able to work with it easily. Logic would be
> : counterproductive.
>
> Cataloging could be useful for archiving as nobody can be
> familiar with all the threads in the archives. But then again a
> search engine might be just as useful. Maybe if one combined them
> both...
>
> Could mailing list or newsgroup archives serve as a bent FAQ or
> knowledge base? I'm thinking of a system where one could quickly
> find solutions for the various bent issues.
>
> The system could have following components:
> 1. Raw data (discussion articles and threads, maybe also web pages)
> 2. The basic search engine (or any improvements like Google)
> 3. Cataloging done by administrator or editor level users (sorta like
> http://dmoz.org/about.html)
> 4. Ratings done by the users of the system
>
> It could be a hypertext system with links...
>
> Maybe it would work as a web-based engine. We would have the
> questions catalogued by administrators. Then we add the links to
> the raw data in WWW (the archives are there too). Finally we let
> the users rank how good solutions the various units of raw data
> are to the given question.

Ah ... to be young again and have the energy and enthusiasm of youth!
No thank you! I am old and tired and I would not wade into a newsgroup
site for the purpose of organinzing what is there for all the tea in
China. But I don't think anyone should do it actually. What gets
posted to a newsgroup is mostly garbage. It is like a million people
chatting away on a community telephone and it is quite enough just to
stay with what the current buzz is. Trust me on this. You do not want
to waste any time going back to see what is on ARBR. Finish your
course work for your degree and then get on with your life and forget
about newsgroups. They are a total dead end.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Tom Sherman
December 14th 03, 05:40 PM
Zippy the Pinhead wrote:
>
> **** you, Kurt, and the pferd you rode in on. You are irrelevant.

You are showing real class here, Mr. Too Cowardly To Use Your Real Name.

Tom Sherman - 41 N, 90 W

Zippy the Pinhead
December 14th 03, 07:29 PM
On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:43:48 +0100, (Kurt Fischer)
wrote:


>
>In my opinion the dictator should have been captured a long time ago,

How? By enforcing the terms of the cease-fire which saved his ass in
'91? The UN would have objected in the strongest terms.

>. At the moment we are able to express our opinions and to
>criticize our politicians. Do you want to change that?

No, the terrorists do. We want to keep that from happening. It's a
shame that,once again, you won't help yourselves.

>Oh no, I'm riding recumbents only. A trike in winter,

What kind of a trike? I have been looking at a Greenspeed.

I spent my State veteran's bonus as a down payment on a V2. I had a
couple of near-misses on it just hitting a patch of leaves on the road
at speed -- can't imagine riding it in icy conditions, though some
local crazies race similar machines on ice-covered lakes with studded
tires.

What keeps me off the bike in winter is not as much a fear of falling
as a fear of some driver not seeing me through the frosted-over
windshield. I'd probably stay off the main roads even if I had a
trike.

Do you commute to work? Are the drivers where you live more cognizant
and respectful of cyclists than ours?

Danke sehr.

Eduardo L P Jr
December 14th 03, 10:02 PM
..............
>
> Oh no, I'm riding recumbents only. A trike in winter, a LWB in the rain
> and a SWB for the rest. ;-)
>
> Regards,
> Kurt, whose nickname at school actually was "Ulysses" ;-)


May you answer a doubt-question of a tropical country citizen? Why a trike
in winter, a LWB in the rain and a SWB for the rest? My semi-lowracer is
doing well in all seasons ;-)

[]'s Eduardo

P.S.: I never see snow in my life...



Ypê Bike: http://www.ypebike.cjb.net/
Ypê Mono: http://www.ype.unicyclist.com/


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 11/12/2003

Kurt Fischer
December 14th 03, 10:02 PM
Zippy the Pinhead > wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 18:43:48 +0100, (Kurt Fischer)
> wrote:

> >In my opinion the dictator should have been captured a long time ago,
>
> How? By enforcing the terms of the cease-fire which saved his ass in
> '91? The UN would have objected in the strongest terms.

Probably, but the opportunity was there and I wouldn't have felt too
sorry if Saddam had been killed during fightings. But who knows about
the consequences, maybe the time was not yet ripe then and now it is.
The war is not over yet, but at least there is hope now his followers
will surrender.


> >. At the moment we are able to express our opinions and to
> >criticize our politicians. Do you want to change that?
>
> No, the terrorists do. We want to keep that from happening. It's a
> shame that,once again, you won't help yourselves.

You are talking to a man who was born ten years after WWII. Our
generation and the following ones grew up under the doctrine of "Never
war again!", especially not outgoing from our nation's soil. Meanwhile
things have changed, but many Germans still have a hard time to get
accustomed to the thought of taking part in military actions. Our
neighbors probably wouldn't be glad either about a belligerent,
aggressive Germany.


> >Oh no, I'm riding recumbents only. A trike in winter,
>
> What kind of a trike?

http://anthrotech.de/
It's a suspended tadpole, seat height at about 44cm(17"), BB about
15cm(6") under seat height. Weight about 23 kg, so it's heavy, but very
stable.

>I have been looking at a Greenspeed.

I know at least of one on the German hpv-list who owns a Greenspeed and
is very happy with it. Actually it belongs to his wife, but occasionally
he rides it too. ;-)

> I spent my State veteran's bonus as a down payment on a V2. I had a
> couple of near-misses on it just hitting a patch of leaves on the road
> at speed -- can't imagine riding it in icy conditions, though some
> local crazies race similar machines on ice-covered lakes with studded
> tires.

That's a lot of joy on a trike, you don't even need studded tires.


> What keeps me off the bike in winter is not as much a fear of falling
> as a fear of some driver not seeing me through the frosted-over
> windshield. I'd probably stay off the main roads even if I had a
> trike.

We have here a lot of quiet rural roads with very little traffic. In
winter they are often icy and snow-covered, that's an easy task for a
trike, but I wouldn't want to ride there on a two-wheeler.


> Do you commute to work?

No, I'm working in my village, but I'm riding almost daily to the next
city for shopping etc..., which makes for a trip of 12 Miles or more.


> Are the drivers where you live more cognizant and respectful of cyclists
> than ours?

I don't have a direct comparison, but it seems that drivers are more
careful while overtaking when I'm on my trike, and I'm not the only
triker who made this experience. I'm starting this December into the
14th winter on my trike(had a delta before) and can't remember a single
close call or any really dangerous situations. Drivers tend to be more
cautious in Winter here and to slow down when the roads are covered with
snow, slush or ice.
However, it starts getting dangerous when the weather warms up and the
roads get dry, as drivers speed up considerably, but it's no surprise to
me anymore and I'm prepared for it.


Regards,
Kurt

Kurt Fischer
December 14th 03, 11:11 PM
Edward Dolan > wrote:


> Kurt, the minute you get into fairings, especially full body fairings,
> everything changes drastically. You simply cannot compare full body
> faired bikes with unfaired bikes.

Yes, that's true, but even in this case it's not easy to draw a clear
line. ;-)

Looking for example at the partially faired Windcheetah you will see
that it's more a gradual transition than a strict demarcation between
faired and unfaired:
http://www.windcheetah.co.uk/supersport.htm


> I have seen plenty of guys riding trikes who are amazingly fast.
> Obviously the rider has a lot to do with this, but still it has aways
> been my very strong impression that those trikers who are fast are
> working very hard in order to be fast. I do not think a trike can ever
> be faster than a 2 wheeler everything else being equal.

I've read lately a reference on the French hpv-list, which seems to back
up your opinion. Marc Tauss reported a test-ride he'd done together with
another rider on two recumbents: the entry level model of Cycle Genius
and a high-end Windcheetah. Into half of the ride they changed their
bikes and now it came to a big surprise. The "cheap" CLWB was in Marc's
experience not only more comfortable over bumps, it was also faster. I
could hardly believe it, but I see no reason why Marc should pretend
something that is not true.


> Thanks for those sites showing fully faired body trikes. I will never
> get one but it is fun to dream about them.

I wouldn't want a fairing where my body is fully enclosed, but I
certainly lust for a velomobile like the Quest, which is very
aerodynamic, while the head is on the fresh air. In the near future it
will remain also for me a dream, but who knows, dreams sometimes come
true. ;-)

Regards,
Kurt

Kurt Fischer
December 15th 03, 01:01 AM
Eduardo L P Jr > wrote:

> May you answer a doubt-question of a tropical country citizen? Why a trike
> in winter, a LWB in the rain and a SWB for the rest? My semi-lowracer is
> doing well in all seasons ;-)

It's easy to explain. A trike offers stability when there is ice and
snow on the roads and the front-fairing keeps cold wind away

My LWB is equipped with a foldable textile fairing. It weighs only two
pounds and keeps the body dry and warm. For pictures see:
http://www.alfredsaws.de/

And my SWB is for the rest of it, when there is no rain or snow, which
is fortunately most of the time. ;-)

Regards,
Kurt, who loves the sight of the snow-capped mountains in his region

Edward Dolan
December 15th 03, 02:41 AM
Zippy the Pinhead > wrote in message >...

[...]

> I spent my State veteran's bonus as a down payment on a V2. I had a
> couple of near-misses on it just hitting a patch of leaves on the road
> at speed -- can't imagine riding it in icy conditions, though some
> local crazies race similar machines on ice-covered lakes with studded
> tires.
>
> What keeps me off the bike in winter is not as much a fear of falling
> as a fear of some driver not seeing me through the frosted-over
> windshield. I'd probably stay off the main roads even if I had a
> trike.

That is a darn good point Zippy and one that most of us don't even
think about. When things get too frosty I steer clear of traffic or
just don't go out. It is way too dangerous. And then when there is a
lot of ice on the roads, you have to worry about divers sliding into
you. A trike will work wonders in the winter but you still have to use
caution.

How do you like your new V2? I have one of the early ones and the
front end ergonomics is not totally ideal for me. I am thinking of
maybe getting a different riser and handlebar so as to fine tune the
reach. Also, it seems to have a lot of tiller at slow speeds. I am
used to the Tour Easy and I find the V2 quite different. But I do like
the V2, I just feel I need to do some fine tuning.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

December 15th 03, 04:35 AM
Kurt Fischer > wrote:

: I've read lately a reference on the French hpv-list, which seems to back
: up your opinion. Marc Tauss reported a test-ride he'd done together with
: another rider on two recumbents: the entry level model of Cycle Genius
: and a high-end Windcheetah. Into half of the ride they changed their
: bikes and now it came to a big surprise. The "cheap" CLWB was in Marc's
: experience not only more comfortable over bumps, it was also faster. I
: could hardly believe it, but I see no reason why Marc should pretend
: something that is not true.

In my experience trikes are about as fast as uprights, maybe
slower uphill though. If the CLWB doesn't have a low bottom
bracket and the seat angle is quite laid back, it could well be
faster. The Windcheetah doesn't have a very laid back seat IMO
though it has fairly aerodynamic steering. Dunno how much there is
to the trike's reputation of being a speedy vehicle.

Would like to try a Trice Micro some day...

: I wouldn't want a fairing where my body is fully enclosed, but I
: certainly lust for a velomobile like the Quest, which is very
: aerodynamic, while the head is on the fresh air. In the near future it
: will remain also for me a dream, but who knows, dreams sometimes come
: true. ;-)

If you are a very big person, the Quest is indeed quite
aerodynamic. If you are a smaller person (or normal sized in many
places), you still need to push the big shell around, but with
less muscle mass and endurance.

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/

December 15th 03, 04:42 AM
Kurt Fischer > wrote:
: Zippy the Pinhead > wrote:

:> I spent my State veteran's bonus as a down payment on a V2. I had a
:> couple of near-misses on it just hitting a patch of leaves on the road
:> at speed -- can't imagine riding it in icy conditions, though some
:> local crazies race similar machines on ice-covered lakes with studded
:> tires.

: That's a lot of joy on a trike, you don't even need studded tires.

For racing they'd provide traction, and in traffic they'd make for
a better braking distance, I'd believe.

: I don't have a direct comparison, but it seems that drivers are more
: careful while overtaking when I'm on my trike, and I'm not the only
: triker who made this experience. I'm starting this December into the

This is funny, because a trike is more stable than two wheelers.
Sudden air currents wouldn't unbalance you, and you probably
wouldn't fall even in collisions.

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/

Zippy the Pinhead
December 15th 03, 04:55 AM
On 14 Dec 2003 17:41:04 -0800, (Edward Dolan) wrote:


>
>How do you like your new V2? I have one of the early ones and the
>front end ergonomics is not totally ideal for me. I am thinking of
>maybe getting a different riser and handlebar so as to fine tune the
>reach. Also, it seems to have a lot of tiller at slow speeds.

I may have inadvertently misrepresented my V2. It's new to ME, but I
got it used. New ones are a lot more than I could pay. And I do like
it, though it took some getting used to -- and I'm still on the
learning curve.

I echo your sentiments about the tiller at slow speeds. I spent a lot
of time slaloming around a local parking lot at various speeds to get
the feel of it. There are different handlebars available for it if
that would help. You could probably go check at Calhoun's next time
you get to the Cities; they'd help you out I'm sure.

The thing that still gives me the willies is what I mentioned to Kurt
-- when I hit a patch of leaves, the rear wheel will kind of take a
llittle hop which is mightily disconcerting. All in all, though, I'm
really enjoying riding it -- in its season.

Right now it's me, the Air-Dyne with its reading rack for when there's
nothing on the tube, and an hour a day of that to keep me in shape for
riding season.

As you know about the Upper Midwest, there is this really wonderful
season that occurs between the melting snow of Spring and the hot
muggy summer with its biting insects.

Problem is, that season always occurs during a weekend I have to
work...

December 15th 03, 04:55 AM
Edward Dolan > wrote:

: just plain unreasonable. Also, no one is going to take a thread to "an
: appropriate group". It either gets discussed here or it is dead.

IMO that constitutes newbieness and bad manners. Obviously the NG
with the correct topic is the best place for serious discussion.
OT threads in newsgroups would mainly have the merit of letting
you know what other posters think of a particular topic, though
you could learn that in the proper NGs as well.

: Doing a search on Google is a mess. I thought I would check out my
: name, Ed Dolan. Lo and behold, there are several other Ed Dolan's, not
: on ARBR, but on many other groups. No, I am not ever going to go back
: and look up anything. I think of a newsgroup as like a telephone
: conversation, here today and gone tomorrow.

Doing searches is almost the only reason I use Google groups ;)

:> Bavaria is often considered a bit backward and behind the time, but it
:> is interesting that our region around Munich is one of the hotbeds of
:> recumbency in Germany. We have at least two manufacturers here, Flux[1]
:> and Dalli[2], and several very good recumbent shops. One of them is only
:> 40km(25miles) away, so it's in cycling distance for me. ;-)

: The mountainous regions of the US are not known for having a lot of
: recumbent cyclists and/or recumbent bike shops. I once asked on this
: newsgroup if there were any recumbent cyclists in West Virginia and I
: did not get a single taker.

Hmm I wonder how the werewolves of Bavaria react to bents... any
better than dogs/horses/cats/chicken/ostritches?

:> Thanks. English is actually my third language, the second being German.
:> German was in fact a language I had to learn in school, while reversely
:> the other German tribes are hardly able to understand our language. ;-)

: And the first language is ...

Obviously Bavarian? Every country seems to have their version of a
"heavy Texas accent". We have Savo, the Japanese have Kansai-ben...

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/

Dean Arthur
December 15th 03, 06:26 AM
....
>
> > Edward Dolan > wrote:
> >
> >It is all I can do to
> take on the American nuts and screwballs on this issue.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ed Dolan - Minnesota


Nuts and screwballs? HEY, I resemble that, errrrr, I think?

Dean Arthur
December 15th 03, 06:30 AM
What comes to mind is a rotating fairing. Fixed on the off-side to top
center and rotating from top down to fasten to rail running front to
rear on the side one mounts from. A lexan or flexible bubble on top to
provide 360 degree visibility. So many neat ideas - so little money to
try them!

Dean Arthur
December 15th 03, 07:00 AM
I found LED flashers [with five LEDs] in red and amber versions at local
hardware store. No name, but SH-05 on outside of pocket clip. Use two
AA batteries and have a number of flashing patterns. Also has tube/pipe
clamp with rubber liner to prevent spinning. Should attach to
handlebars and rear of 'bent easily.

Wore them on parka while wanding aircraft into parking slots at Jackson
Hole Airport in winter. Many favorable comments from flight deck crew afterward.

Edward Dolan
December 15th 03, 08:42 AM
wrote in message >...

> Edward Dolan > wrote:

[...]

> : Doing a search on Google is a mess. [...]

> Doing searches is almost the only reason I use Google groups ;)

I am dumbfounded! That is way too time consuming and I do not have
enough years left in my life to spend any amount of time doing that.
It is the proverbial wild goose chase as far as I am concerned. But
you are young and so you have the time. ;)

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Dave Larrington
December 15th 03, 11:30 AM
My experience with a Trice Micro suggested that, on open roads, it was on a
par with my old Kingcycle SWB in the matter of speed.

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
================================================== =========
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
================================================== =========

Just zis Guy, you know?
December 15th 03, 01:48 PM
On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 10:30:45 -0000, "Dave Larrington"
> wrote:

>My experience with a Trice Micro suggested that, on open roads, it was on a
>par with my old Kingcycle SWB in the matter of speed.

I tried the Monster and it was easily as fast as the Stinger. Ahead
grin factor nine, Mr Sulu...

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk

Kurt Fischer
December 15th 03, 03:22 PM
> wrote:

> The Windcheetah doesn't have a very laid back seat IMO
> though it has fairly aerodynamic steering. Dunno how much there is
> to the trike's reputation of being a speedy vehicle.

The other name of the (faired) Windcheetah was "Speedy", that should
tell something about its reputation. ;-)
As far as I remember the most common vehicles in hpv-racing in UK for
quite a while were Windcheetahs and Kingcycles, but Dave surely is more
competent to tell about it.
For a more recent record of the WC see:
http://www.windcheetah.co.uk/record.htm

Regards,
Kurt

Kurt Fischer
December 15th 03, 03:22 PM
Zippy the Pinhead > wrote:


> -- when I hit a patch of leaves, the rear wheel will kind of take a
> llittle hop which is mightily disconcerting.

What kind of tires are you using? What pressure?

I've never experienced this on my LWB AFAIK. It's a Radius Dino, very
similar to a Ryan Vanguard. Rear wheel is 28" and I'm using usually wide
touring tires on it, especially Marathons 40-622.

Regards,
Kurt

Kurt Fischer
December 15th 03, 03:22 PM
> wrote:


> Hmm I wonder how the werewolves of Bavaria react to bents... any
> better than dogs/horses/cats/chicken/ostritches?

We don't have any werewolves here, honestly. Our folkloristic animals
are called "Wolpertinger". These funny looking creatures are crawling
sometimes out of the eggs of our mountain goats, didn't meet them till
now on the road, so I can't comment on their behavior. For examples see:
http://www.diebachhubers.de/bilder/wolpertinger.jpg
http://home.wtal.de/schelle/wolpertinger.jpg


> : And the first language is ...
>
> Obviously Bavarian? Every country seems to have their version of a
> "heavy Texas accent". We have Savo, the Japanese have Kansai-ben...

Yes, of course it's Bavarian. Look for example at my e-mail address.
It's not Egyptian, it simply means "I don't like spam" in Bavarian. ;-)

Regards,
Kurt

Kurt Fischer
December 15th 03, 03:22 PM
Edward Dolan > wrote:

> (Kurt Fischer) wrote in message
> >...
> > I won't go into political discussions with you here, just a few general
> > thoughts: [...]
>
> Kurt, you are not saying anything too outrageous and I do realize the
> European perspective may be different from ours. It is all I can do to
> take on the American nuts and screwballs on this issue. Besides, I
> must always hold myself in reserve for my nemesis, Mr. Tom Sherman,
> who may open up with a barrage at any moment.

I have to express my honest respect here, Ed. Maybe I didn't say
anything outrageous, but there were surely critical points enough to
provide you with sufficient ammunition for firing back. I'm glad you
didn't. At least in our discussion you don't behave like a troll at all.
Of course our views are quite different, but that's only natural,
considering our differing backgrounds and history. So again: hats off!


> > [ ... ]

> just plain unreasonable. Also, no one is going to take a thread to "an
> appropriate group". It either gets discussed here or it is dead.

It's common praxis in most German speaking groups and seems to work well
if done properly. But every group has its specific habits, after all
it's up to the regulars to form their own rules, it really doesn't
matter as long as the majority can get along with it.


> Doing a search on Google is a mess. I thought I would check out my
> name, Ed Dolan. Lo and behold, there are several other Ed Dolan's, not
> on ARBR, but on many other groups. No, I am not ever going to go back
> and look up anything. I think of a newsgroup as like a telephone
> conversation, here today and gone tomorrow.

That's only one side of the medal. On the other side we should try not
to forget that all our postings are archived till eternity. And
sometimes it can make really sense to search for older threads, think of
the cross-postings between a.r.b.r and r.b.r. Risto has found.


> The mountainous regions of the US are not known for having a lot of
> recumbent cyclists and/or recumbent bike shops. I once asked on this
> newsgroup if there were any recumbent cyclists in West Virginia and I
> did not get a single taker.

Real mountains are only to be found in the deep South of Bavaria, our
region I'd consider as rather hilly and Munich itself is flat as a
pancake, still the mountains in sight. Many short steep hills sometimes
can get more tiresome than passes in the Alps rising slowly and
steadily.



> > Thanks. English is actually my third language, the second being German.
> > German was in fact a language I had to learn in school, while reversely
> > the other German tribes are hardly able to understand our language. ;-)
>
> And the first language is ...

Bavarian of course. And don't believe malicious members of northern
tribes who regard Bavarian more as a disease of the larynx than a
language. ;-)

Regards,
Kurt

Christopher Jordan
December 15th 03, 04:59 PM
Sounds like describing the shape of a Jetson space vehicle! Nice
idea, but look out for the Spacelys.....
;-)
I am in the middle of putting a "roof" and smoke tint fairing (already
there) on my Catrike; and so far it has cost me $5.-roll of bendable
aluminum tubing, and a free surfboard packing foam, so that has not
been a costly project to try.

Chris Jordan
Santa Cruz, CA.

Dean Arthur > wrote in message >...
> What comes to mind is a rotating fairing. Fixed on the off-side to top
> center and rotating from top down to fasten to rail running front to
> rear on the side one mounts from. A lexan or flexible bubble on top to
> provide 360 degree visibility. So many neat ideas - so little money to
> try them!

Edward Dolan
December 16th 03, 12:14 AM
(Kurt Fischer) wrote in message >...

> > wrote:
>
> > The Windcheetah doesn't have a very laid back seat IMO
> > though it has fairly aerodynamic steering. Dunno how much there is
> > to the trike's reputation of being a speedy vehicle.
>
> The other name of the (faired) Windcheetah was "Speedy", that should
> tell something about its reputation. ;-)

> As far as I remember the most common vehicles in hpv-racing in UK for
> quite a while were Windcheetahs and Kingcycles, but Dave surely is more
> competent to tell about it.

> For a more recent record of the WC see:
> http://www.windcheetah.co.uk/record.htm
>
> Regards,
> Kurt

Kurt, I have decided not to get into any more discussions with the
go-fast contingent here an ARBR because I do not fall into that group
and it may be that I do not know what I am talking about. I have
enormous respect for those who are able to go fast on their bikes but
they may as well be from another planet as far as I am concerned.

I am a go-slow recumbent rider and I do not understand what all the
hype is about. I have often thought that the chief advantage of a
recumbent bike is that you can go slow and there are no downsides to
it as far as the comfort factor is concerned. That is not necessarily
true with uprights. And so I go slow and am comfortable forever. I
think I spend more time on my bike as a result of the comfort factor
and so I reap the benefits of health and fitness just the same as
those who go fast. But I ride mainly for the fun of it. If it weren't
for that factor, I would never ride at all.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Kurt Fischer
December 17th 03, 12:11 AM
Edward Dolan > wrote:

> I am a go-slow recumbent rider and I do not understand what all the
> hype is about. I have often thought that the chief advantage of a
> recumbent bike is that you can go slow and there are no downsides to
> it as far as the comfort factor is concerned. That is not necessarily
> true with uprights. And so I go slow and am comfortable forever. I
> think I spend more time on my bike as a result of the comfort factor
> and so I reap the benefits of health and fitness just the same as
> those who go fast. But I ride mainly for the fun of it. If it weren't
> for that factor, I would never ride at all.

I'm also not a racer and I've always considered comfort the biggest
advantage of recumbents. The German HPV association was founded in 1985
and from the beginning there were quarrels and animosities between two
different groups.
On the one side the "speed freaks", who were simply into racing and
going fast at all costs, and on the other side riders with beards and
Birkenstocks(sandals) who rode their recumbents for every-day-use,
mainly concerned about environmental issues.
Of course that's a vast simplification, but probably you will get the
point.
I'm sure the energy lost in these quarrels could have been used more
intelligent in letting the others be and riding more for the own
pleasure. ;-)

However, in the medias recumbents almost always were associated with
speed, aerodynamics and records, which led to a very annoying
side-effect. Many times I ended up chased down by almost anybody on two
wheels, trying to keep up with or to overtake one of these "incredibly
fast" vehicles. Sometimes I got the feeling I had to prove something and
to defend the reputation of recumbents by riding fast, or even
"incredibly" fast, and that can get quite tiresome on a 50+lbs LWB or
trike in a hilly region. ;-)

Meanwhile I don't care anymore. I ride as fast or as slow as I want and
ignore riders trying to challenge me. The vast majority of cyclists is
not into speed, they simply want to ride along and have their fun. This
group will look at moderate recumbents, preferably with suspension and a
seat position like an easy-chair.

Of course there are also more competitive riders, who are into speed and
lightweight. Highracers and lowracers for them, to each their own. But
even on the really fast models it's possible to ride comparably
comfortable and to enjoy simply the view on the surroundings at a slower
pace, that's IMO a unique feature of recumbents.

So I don't see why there should be any longer animosities between these
groups. Each will attract different people and after all there should be
room enough for all of them.


Regards,
Kurt

Kurt Fischer
December 17th 03, 12:34 AM
Edward Dolan > wrote:


> I am ashamed of my tactics sometimes but the American liberal contingent
> here deserve no less. It is kill or be killed.

Okay, I see your point now. Good luck! And may the toughest [1] survive.
;-)

Regards,
Kurt


[1] recumbent rider, that is, of course. ;-)

December 17th 03, 05:57 PM
(Kurt Fischer) wrote in message >...
> However, in the medias recumbents almost always were associated with
> speed, aerodynamics and records, which led to a very annoying
> side-effect. Many times I ended up chased down by almost anybody on two
> wheels, trying to keep up with or to overtake one of these "incredibly
> fast" vehicles. Sometimes I got the feeling I had to prove something and
> to defend the reputation of recumbents by riding fast, or even
> "incredibly" fast, and that can get quite tiresome on a 50+lbs LWB or
> trike in a hilly region. ;-)

If it wasn't for speed freaks the recumbent movement would have never
taken off. The quest for top speed and breaking barriers like the
DuPont prize is what captured the medias attention in the first place.
Thats how a lot of you found out about recumbents and it's progessed
from there. A case can be made where the IHPVA set the sport back
years by ignoring fast bikes for bikes that can carry luggage just so
they could try and convince people that recumbents were all purpose
vehicles. Just simply boring...you don't get many articles on how much
milk you can carry on a bike. However, go 81mph and now you get
peoples attention.
Freddy

Kurt Fischer
December 17th 03, 08:08 PM
> wrote:



> If it wasn't for speed freaks the recumbent movement would have never
> taken off.

I hope you didn't misinterpret my post, Freddy. It was not my intention
to mock at the racing crowd, I just can't see any sense in animosities
between the fast and the slow riders. They could get along very well
with each other, most probably they will even profit from each other.


> The quest for top speed and breaking barriers like the DuPont prize is what
> captured the medias attention in the first place.

Yes, that's one side of the medal. In Germany it was Wolfgang Gronen,
building up a racing team around the three-wheeled Vector imported from
America. It's speed was hard to beat in the eighties and the beginning
nineties.

But on the other side don't forget David Gordon Miller's AVATAR 2000.
AFAIR it was planned and built under the aspects of safety, not with
speed in mind. This LWB was the ancestor of the first available
recumbents in Germany: Radius, Pichler and FATEBA(Suisse) being the most
prominent manufacturers. So on the streets recumbency in Germany started
with quite slow, heavy and minor aerodynamic recumbents, appropriate for
touring, commuting and recreational rides. Real racers were a
diminishing minority till the birth of the first lowracers like the
Kreuzotter, the ancient Flux Z-Pro or the Aeroproject ultralow.

Since the German HPV-Club was not willing and/or not able to support the
racing scene sufficiently, a racing club was founded:
http://www.speedbikebgl.de/
Open for all racing enthusiasts, not only recumbents. Meanwhile a
considerable racing scene has formed, including race series and regular
training sessions at velodromes.


> Thats how a lot of you found out about recumbents and it's progessed
> from there. A case can be made where the IHPVA set the sport back
> years by ignoring fast bikes for bikes that can carry luggage just so
> they could try and convince people that recumbents were all purpose
> vehicles. Just simply boring...you don't get many articles on how much
> milk you can carry on a bike. However, go 81mph and now you get
> peoples attention.

Yes, that's true. People are fascinated by speed, but these high-speed
events like Battle Mountain correspond with Formula I in Indianapolis,
they are not that relevant for riding on the roads and streets, and
that's what most of us want to do. So you need both: Fast vehicles
attracting public attention and showing the speed potential of
recumbents and riders on more moderate recumbents, appropriate for
touring and commuting in traffic and on public roads.

The upcoming highracers could be a welcomed compromise: They are fast
and aero enough to attract the interest of roadies and "civilized"
enough for daily use. BTW, your Stiletto could be another synthesis of
speed on the one and moderate handling on the other hand.

After all, you don't have to be a racer to fall in love with a light and
fast bike. ;-)

Kurt

dogboy
December 18th 03, 01:39 AM
It's not just for Formula One anymore!
I used this years Battle Mt. event to see what we, Coyote & I, could
do speed wise. My focus has primarily been on finding the streamliner
that is both fast and useful.
The posts seem to reflect polar views,.... speedbikes = everyday
uselessness and practical vehicles don't have much speed potential.
Rotator built a hybred called the Coyote years ago and I have ridden
it over 15,000 miles during it's 12 years. Club rides, week long
tours, century rides, and just to town. It fullfills my needs as a
commuter bike nicely. It also went 54 mph at Battle Mt. Next year I
will over inflate the tires like everyone else and hope I'm fit enough
for 60 mph!
World record top speeds are great but it's so esoteric that it will
never be for more than a select few.
It is a shame that so few have had or even want the experience of
full streamlined biking. There are a handful of riders out there that
know what it's like and it's a completely different beast, both good
and bad.
It's interesting that people can disect the height of the bottom
bracket, seat position, USS, ASS, and god knows what else, but the one
thing that would return the most performance, comfort, and possibly be
the next evolutionary stage for cycling is conspicuously absent!

Edward Dolan
December 18th 03, 03:59 AM
(Kurt Fischer) wrote in message >...
[...]
> After all, you don't have to be a racer to fall in love with a light and
> fast bike. ;-)
>
> Kurt


Kurt, you have had the last word on this subject because you, like Fox
News, are fair and balanced. If you ever decide to publish a
newsletter on recumbents I will be the first to subscribe. I have
always greatly admired Robert Bryant's RCN publication because he has
always had a very balanced view of the recumbent scene. Without
balance, we would all of us go astray.

Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Kurt Fischer
December 18th 03, 04:32 PM
Jay > wrote:

> Actually ALL media articles that I have been involved in focused entirely in
> discussing non-speed qualities of my 7 recumbents (ie. comfort, hauling
> ability, ease of use, adaptability for disabilities, etc)
> So far, that involved media ( radio, TV , film, internet and print) in
> Canada, the USA and Australia.

Maybe due to the fact that you're a woman? ;-)

Also, when it comes to trikes, people seem to be more prone to realize
their advantages concerning safety and utility than for example looking
at comparably low two-wheeled recumbents. While seeing the stability and
practicability for every-day use, many of them are surprised that trikes
don't have to be slow at all.

I see one big disadvantage in advertising recumbents via high speed and
superior aerodynamics: Most available recumbents don't have
significantly better aerodynamics than racing-bikes, so the customers
soon will realize they still have to pedal and are far from reaching
effortless speeds of 30 miles per hour or more. Even a very fast bike
needs in the first line a strong rider to go fast, so I don't consider
it a good idea to waken unrealistic expectations which will lead
inevitably to frustrations.

Comfort and fun - on the other hand - are hard to beat and nearly
impossible to deny, the famous recumbent grin says it all. ;-)


Regards,
Kurt

Kurt Fischer
December 18th 03, 04:32 PM
dogboy > wrote:

> It's not just for Formula One anymore!
> I used this years Battle Mt. event to see what we, Coyote & I, could
> do speed wise. My focus has primarily been on finding the streamliner
> that is both fast and useful.

I'm glad to hear that, high speed certainly attracts attention, but most
of the involved vehicles are far from being practical for riding on the
streets, esp. riding head first looking in mirrors. ;-)


> The posts seem to reflect polar views,.... speedbikes = everyday
> uselessness and practical vehicles don't have much speed potential.

I consider it one of the biggest advantages of recumbents that you don't
have to decide between these two goals, you can have them both - records
left aside. Best example in my eyes are tail boxes. Able to carry
luggage and making the bike faster - if formed properly.
Most riders of the Kreuzotter low racer didn't use it only for racing,
but also for commuting and touring. And looking at the carbon Kreuzotter
you will see another possibility for combining speed and utility: The
rear part of the frame serves as fender and luggage rack for Radical
bags and the wheel fairing keeps away water and improves aerodynamics.
And - not to forget - it looks good, at least to me. ;-)
http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/eko5pur.htm


> Rotator built a hybred called the Coyote years ago and I have ridden
> it over 15,000 miles during it's 12 years.

Any pictures?

> Club rides, week long tours, century rides, and just to town. It fullfills my
> needs as a commuter bike nicely. It also went 54 mph at Battle Mt. Next year I
> will over inflate the tires like everyone else and hope I'm fit enough for 60
> mph!

Good luck!



> It is a shame that so few have had or even want the experience of
> full streamlined biking. There are a handful of riders out there that
> know what it's like and it's a completely different beast, both good
> and bad.
> It's interesting that people can disect the height of the bottom
> bracket, seat position, USS, ASS, and god knows what else, but the one
> thing that would return the most performance, comfort, and possibly be
> the next evolutionary stage for cycling is conspicuously absent!

Velomobiles seem to catch on quite well in the Netherlands, some of them
are real streamliners, on some designs the head is outside. But all of
them are rather pricey and not easy available. I suspect in our hilly
region they would lose quite a lot of their speed potential, of course
weather
protection still remaining a reason for buying. I'm guessing we're
standing just at the beginning here, in a few years probably
streamliners will be far more common than today.

Regards,
Kurt

dogboy
December 18th 03, 08:49 PM
I think your right about increased popularity. I'm not so sure about
your timeline though. I used to say the same thing 10 years ago and
Steve Delaire has been waiting for 25 years for streamers to catch on!
Yes they are expensive to build now, but as more folks get involved,
cost effective ideas and manufacturing are a possibility. Development
goes hand in hand with interest and commercial viability.
Here's a couple of links to pics of the Coyote. The current body
style is geared more towards racing, but I ride it on the street as is
with no problem.
Riding the Coyote is one of the most fun things I have ever done!

http://rotatorrecumbent.com/coyote.html (old pic)
http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/whpsc2003/resultsthursday.htm

There are 2 pics on the BM page,one of me working on the bike and the
other coming into the catch area unassisted. Clicking on the later
reveals the whole picture with Al and another guy in the catch area.

P.S. Thanks Warren for your cutout toy Barracuda. I put it together
and hung it on a stick out in front of my windshield. Now I can get in
shape by chasing you all the way to Battle Mt. next year!

December 19th 03, 08:45 AM
dogboy > wrote:

: Here's a couple of links to pics of the Coyote. The current body
: style is geared more towards racing, but I ride it on the street as is
: with no problem.
: Riding the Coyote is one of the most fun things I have ever done!

: http://rotatorrecumbent.com/coyote.html (old pic)
: http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/whpsc2003/resultsthursday.htm

How expensive is the Coyote? Did they sell many yet?

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/

Kurt Fischer
December 19th 03, 02:05 PM
dogboy > wrote:

> http://rotatorrecumbent.com/coyote.html (old pic)
> http://www.wisil.recumbents.com/wisil/whpsc2003/resultsthursday.htm

Thanks for the pictures. It's a very cool looking bike. And the weight
seems incredibly low for a streamliner. 44 pounds, that's the weight of
several full suspended SWB's without any fairing.

Here are some pictures of German two-wheeled streamliners:

Aiolos: http://www.eolo.de/

Magic Scooter: http://www.magic-scooter.de/index2.htm

Bumble Bike: http://members.aol.com/hirnihq/bumble.htm

Pics of one of the first fairing for SWB's ever made in Germany:
http://galileo.oche.de/~luftschwimmer/jpeg/training/pa194780.jpg
http://galileo.oche.de/~luftschwimmer/jpeg/training/pa194779.jpg

Picture of Christian Ascheberg's ZOX FWD low racer with fairing made by
Eggert Bülk, on which he participated in PBP '03:
http://www.herden.net/hpv/paderborn2003/seite-0012.htm
http://www.herden.net/hpv/paderborn2003/seite-0019.htm

Regards,
Kurt

dogboy
December 21st 03, 12:29 AM
Thanks for the links! They're bookmarked. Some nice bikes.
I want to ride on that Velodrome track in the pictures!!! It looks
like wood and those banked turns are out of this world! Reminds me of
the now defunct Dominguez Hills track.
Streamers seem to be more abundant in Europe. I would love to go race
there but travel and shipping costs would be too high for me.
As for the weight of the Coyote, we used a design that eliminates the
need for a full frame inside the fairing. There is no metal connecting
the wheels. The lower shell of the body is strong enough to support
the rider. This portion of the shell is only 3.5 ft in length while
the rest of the bike shell is only 2 layers of carbon and kevlar. Alot
of the bikes out at Battle Mt. are being built this way. There is a
very small, front wheel drive, sub frame of Ti that carries the
steering and gearing which plugs into that lower shell. I also sit on
2 airbags ($1.00 inflatable beach balls with very little air in them)
that I put inside a mesh cover I sewed together. One ball supports my
back while the other supports my butt. I don't experience any pressure
points while I ride cuz my weight is very evenly distributed.
All in all, this bike desigh has worked very well for me and I
continue looking for ways to improve it. The fact that it doesn't
weigh as much as people think really comes into play on the hills. I
can't count how many times I've had people tell me "I didn't think
"that thing" could climb", but they all know what "that thing" can do
on the downhills and the flats! On century rides you should hear them
talking at the rests stops. "Did you see that thing go? I wonder if
there is a motor in there?" I always answer them "Yes there is, a hi
mileage fifty year old tired out old broken down one,... me!"

Google

Home - Home - Home - Home - Home