Wheels for a clydesdale

[Lowell Nelson]

Currently riding Open 4 cd wheels 32 hole laced to 600 hubs. I've ridden
1200 miles, and the rear wheel goes out of true on a 30 mile normal road
ride.

My lbs convinced me to rebuild it last week saying that would fix it. They
kept the same spokes but used new nipples. Anyway, when I picked it up from
the owner of the shop, he laughed and said that for my size (6'6" 265
pounds), there's no way that wheel will hold up. First ride it had gone out
of true bad.

So now I'm looking around. He said that a bigger spoke (currently has 15g)
and a better rim like an open pro would fix it. He said the way mavic
welded the open 4s caused them to be very weak at the weld. On the ride
after the rebuild it did go out of true at the weld, so that lends some
credence.

I'm eternally on a budget, so I need suggestions. Are the paired spoke
wheels and such any good for a clydesdale like me, or do I need to stick
with a 32 spoke (or even a 36 on the rear). The front wheel of course has
been perfect, just my weight on the rear... I am thinking about the Open
Pros/Ultegra 32 hole from JensonUSA for $195+ship.

Anyway, thanks for any suggestions...

Brian

[Mark Hickey]

"Lowell Nelson" > wrote:

>Currently riding Open 4 cd wheels 32 hole laced to 600 hubs. I've ridden
>1200 miles, and the rear wheel goes out of true on a 30 mile normal road
>ride.
>
>My lbs convinced me to rebuild it last week saying that would fix it. They
>kept the same spokes but used new nipples. Anyway, when I picked it up from
>the owner of the shop, he laughed and said that for my size (6'6" 265
>pounds), there's no way that wheel will hold up. First ride it had gone out
>of true bad.
>
>So now I'm looking around. He said that a bigger spoke (currently has 15g)
>and a better rim like an open pro would fix it. He said the way mavic
>welded the open 4s caused them to be very weak at the weld. On the ride
>after the rebuild it did go out of true at the weld, so that lends some
>credence.
>
>I'm eternally on a budget, so I need suggestions. Are the paired spoke
>wheels and such any good for a clydesdale like me, or do I need to stick
>with a 32 spoke (or even a 36 on the rear). The front wheel of course has
>been perfect, just my weight on the rear... I am thinking about the Open
>Pros/Ultegra 32 hole from JensonUSA for $195+ship.

Unless the rims are bent, the bike shop guy is jerking your chain. I
used to ride Open 4 CD rims on my TANDEM. Yeah, they were 36 spokes,
but that's still a LOT more stress than even you can put on a set of
wheels. And no, they didn't go out of true every time I rode the
bike.

The weld is certainly NOT moving, flexing or otherwise misbehaving.
You'd know without a doubt if it was. In fact, I think the Open 4's
were pinned (which also works fine).

There's no reason those wheels can't be built reliably, even for a guy
your size. Sure, if I were starting with a clean sheet of paper, I'd
recommend 36 14-15 butted spokes, but if the wheel (as it's currently
built) is tensioned and stress relieved properly, it won't go out of
true (unless you bend the rim).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

[B a r r y B u r k e J r .]

On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:03:48 -0600, "Lowell Nelson"
> wrote:

>Currently riding Open 4 cd wheels 32 hole laced to 600 hubs. I've ridden
>1200 miles, and the rear wheel goes out of true on a 30 mile normal road
>ride.
>
>My lbs convinced me to rebuild it last week saying that would fix it. They
>kept the same spokes but used new nipples. Anyway, when I picked it up from
>the owner of the shop, he laughed and said that for my size (6'6" 265
>pounds), there's no way that wheel will hold up.

Find a new shop. I was 250+ when I started road riding and promptly
trashed improperly built wheels. 32 spoke wheels, with double butted
spokes and brass nipples, _properly tensioned_, will last. I now
build my rear wheels following Jobst's book with 36 spokes, but I have
32 spoke wheels that work for me.

I can't believe the owner of the shop who rebuilt the wheel "laughed
and said that for my size (6'6" 265 pounds), there's no way that wheel
will hold up".

A _good_ shop can set you up with wheels that will last.

Barry

[Paul Southworth]

In article >,
Lowell Nelson > wrote:
>Currently riding Open 4 cd wheels 32 hole laced to 600 hubs. I've ridden
>1200 miles, and the rear wheel goes out of true on a 30 mile normal road
>ride.
>
>My lbs convinced me to rebuild it last week saying that would fix it. They
>kept the same spokes but used new nipples. Anyway, when I picked it up from
>the owner of the shop, he laughed and said that for my size (6'6" 265
>pounds), there's no way that wheel will hold up. First ride it had gone out
>of true bad.

I think he's right although with a better rim you could probably
get by with 32 spokes, I just wouldn't recommend it.

>So now I'm looking around. He said that a bigger spoke (currently has 15g)
>and a better rim like an open pro would fix it. He said the way mavic
>welded the open 4s caused them to be very weak at the weld. On the ride
>after the rebuild it did go out of true at the weld, so that lends some
>credence.

I don't know if his story is true but the Open Pro is a better rim
than the Open 4CD in my experience (but still perhaps not the best
choice for you).

>I'm eternally on a budget, so I need suggestions. Are the paired spoke
>wheels and such any good for a clydesdale like me, or do I need to stick
>with a 32 spoke (or even a 36 on the rear). The front wheel of course has
>been perfect, just my weight on the rear... I am thinking about the Open
>Pros/Ultegra 32 hole from JensonUSA for $195+ship.
>
>Anyway, thanks for any suggestions...

If you're on a budget, keep your front wheel and buy a stronger
rear one. I think you're a candidate for 36 spokes so I don't recommend
trying to rebuild the rear or buy the wheels you mentioned from JensonUSA.

I suggest you get a hand built wheel from someone who knows what
they're doing. For one thing, they can tell you the strongest wheel
they can build for you, ask their opinion. But in general I would
say use 36 14/15ga butted spokes, brass nipples, pick a stout rim
such as a CXP-33, Velocity Deep-V, or even an Open Pro with 36
spokes would do OK if built well.

--Paul

[Andy]

"Peter Cole" > wrote in message >...
> "Lowell Nelson" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Currently riding Open 4 cd wheels 32 hole laced to 600 hubs. I've ridden
> > 1200 miles, and the rear wheel goes out of true on a 30 mile normal road
> > ride.
> >
> > My lbs convinced me to rebuild it last week saying that would fix it. They
> > kept the same spokes but used new nipples. Anyway, when I picked it up from
> > the owner of the shop, he laughed and said that for my size (6'6" 265
> > pounds), there's no way that wheel will hold up. First ride it had gone out
> > of true bad.
>
> Most wheels go out of true because they're insufficiently tensioned. Before
> throwing in the towel (& the wheels), I'd stress relieve, tension, & true
> them. Most factory-built wheels come under-tensioned, which is a problem,
> especially for big riders (I'm 6'10, 235).


I am not quite as tall as you guys but I compete in Clydesdale for
mountain biking. 5'11" 220lbs. I do ride lots of road and I had the
same concerns about my wheels. I would take Lowell's suggestions
first because I had loads of "pinging" when I put on my new wheel set
this spring. I would also consider the lacing pattern that is used.
I have a radial on the left and cross 2 on the cog side. With a 32
hole you could
go cross 3 on both sides and you'll get good lateral strength. Just a
thought.
One more quick note. To stress relieve any wheels I have built, I use
a rubber mallet and really give the spokes a good wack at the hub
flange to make sure they "set" themselves and then use the handle
between the spokes and give them a good pry to help release any
"pings" and twists.

Andy

[E & V Willson]

On a normal road ride, assuming no great bumps etc., any good wheel should serve
you well. I do not know what your shop is doing wrong, but can tell you that
when I weighed 280, I rode many miles on 36 spoke 14g wheels that were factory
original (and nothing special) on my Mongoose . No Problems. If I were you I
would get a truing stand, learn to tension a wheel, and find another LBS. My
0.02.

Good luck
Ernie

Lowell Nelson wrote:

> Currently riding Open 4 cd wheels 32 hole laced to 600 hubs. I've ridden
> 1200 miles, and the rear wheel goes out of true on a 30 mile normal road
> ride.
>
> My lbs convinced me to rebuild it last week saying that would fix it. They
> kept the same spokes but used new nipples. Anyway, when I picked it up from
> the owner of the shop, he laughed and said that for my size (6'6" 265
> pounds), there's no way that wheel will hold up. First ride it had gone out
> of true bad.
>
> So now I'm looking around. He said that a bigger spoke (currently has 15g)
> and a better rim like an open pro would fix it. He said the way mavic
> welded the open 4s caused them to be very weak at the weld. On the ride
> after the rebuild it did go out of true at the weld, so that lends some
> credence.
>
> I'm eternally on a budget, so I need suggestions. Are the paired spoke
> wheels and such any good for a clydesdale like me, or do I need to stick
> with a 32 spoke (or even a 36 on the rear). The front wheel of course has
> been perfect, just my weight on the rear... I am thinking about the Open
> Pros/Ultegra 32 hole from JensonUSA for $195+ship.
>
> Anyway, thanks for any suggestions...
>
> Brian

[[email protected]]

Lowell Nelson > wrote:

> My lbs convinced me to rebuild it last week saying that would fix it. They
> kept the same spokes but used new nipples. Anyway, when I picked it up from
> the owner of the shop, he laughed and said that for my size (6'6" 265
> pounds), there's no way that wheel will hold up. First ride it had gone out
> of true bad.

I'd second the reccomendation of the VeloCity Deep V. The nice thing about
deep sectioned rims is that you can tension them up to your heart's content
without fear of a wheel collapse. They are available in a 32 hole version.

---

[Chris B.]

On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 02:25:31 GMT, Boyd Speerschneider
> wrote:

>"Lowell Nelson" > wrote in
:
>
>> Currently riding Open 4 cd wheels 32 hole laced to 600 hubs. I've
>> ridden 1200 miles, and the rear wheel goes out of true on a 30 mile
>> normal road ride.
>>
>> My lbs convinced me to rebuild it last week saying that would fix it.
>> They kept the same spokes but used new nipples. Anyway, when I picked
>> it up from the owner of the shop, he laughed and said that for my size
>> (6'6" 265 pounds), there's no way that wheel will hold up. First ride
>> it had gone out of true bad.
>>
>> So now I'm looking around. He said that a bigger spoke (currently has
>> 15g) and a better rim like an open pro would fix it. He said the way
>> mavic welded the open 4s caused them to be very weak at the weld. On
>> the ride after the rebuild it did go out of true at the weld, so that
>> lends some credence.
>>
>> I'm eternally on a budget, so I need suggestions. Are the paired spoke
>> wheels and such any good for a clydesdale like me, or do I need to stick
>> with a 32 spoke (or even a 36 on the rear). The front wheel of course
>> has been perfect, just my weight on the rear... I am thinking about the
>> Open Pros/Ultegra 32 hole from JensonUSA for $195+ship.
>>
>> Anyway, thanks for any suggestions...
>>
>> Brian
>
>I would recommend using 36 hole rims with non butted spokes.

>Sure its heavier, but it will last.

An otherwise equivalent wheel with thinner, butted spokes will be more
inclined to stay true. Bigger is not always better.

>Also, buy a truing stand and buy and read Jobst Brandt's book "The Bicycle
>Wheel".
>
>Then build the wheel yourself from the parts.
>
>1) Its a good, productive way to spend a Saturday afternoon.
>2) It will save you money in the long run (if not immediately).
>3) You can ride in confidence knowing that that wheels were built properly.
>
>The 36-hole rim will require a 4-cross pattern, not the 3-cross of a 32-
>hole rim. Aside from that, building them is virtually the same.

Why do you say that it requires it? The reason for crossing spokes is
to get the spoke as close to tangent to the hub as possible to
maximize torsional stiffness. In a lot of cases, cross 3 works better
with 36 hole hubs and rims as you don't run into problems with the
spokes interfering with each other at the hub and spokes meeting the
rim at a more awkward angle (especially with a large flange hub).

--
Chris Bird

[Chris B.]

On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 00:05:34 -0700, (Tom Keats)
wrote:

>In article >,
> Boyd Speerschneider > writes:
>
>> The 36-hole rim will require a 4-cross pattern, not the 3-cross of a 32-
>> hole rim. Aside from that, building them is virtually the same.
>
>ermm, I think maybe you mean the other way around? 36-holers lend
>themselves to 3-cross or 4-cross lacings, because 36 is evenly
>divisible by 3 or 4, while 32 is only evenly divisible by 4 (or 2 or
>8, but 2-cross wouldn't be workable in this case, and 8-cross is
>just too weird).

Are you saying the commonplace 32 hole wheel laced cross three is an
impossibility?

--
Chris Bird

[Tom Keats]

In article >,
(Tom Keats) writes:
>
> Agghh!! Okay, you've got me drawing out on paper how to get
> a 3-cross lacing on one side of a wheel, with 2 groups of
> 8 spokes.

Okay, it works. But in my rough sketches at least, it
sure ain't pretty -- spokes crossing spokes that have
already crossed 3 other spokes. Maybe that's partly
what killed off wide flanges?


cheers again,
Tom

--
-- Powered by FreeBSD
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

[David Kerber]

In article >,
says...
> In article >,
> Chris B. > writes:
> > On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 00:05:34 -0700, (Tom Keats)
> > wrote:
> >
> >>In article >,
> >> Boyd Speerschneider > writes:
> >>
> >>> The 36-hole rim will require a 4-cross pattern, not the 3-cross of a 32-
> >>> hole rim. Aside from that, building them is virtually the same.
> >>
> >>ermm, I think maybe you mean the other way around? 36-holers lend
> >>themselves to 3-cross or 4-cross lacings, because 36 is evenly
> >>divisible by 3 or 4, while 32 is only evenly divisible by 4 (or 2 or
> >>8, but 2-cross wouldn't be workable in this case, and 8-cross is
> >>just too weird).
> >
> > Are you saying the commonplace 32 hole wheel laced cross three is an
> > impossibility?
>
> I thought it was. Why isn't it, without some holes left over?

The number of crossovers has nothing to do with the number of spokes;
it's mainly related to the angle at which the spoke leaves the hub.



--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

[Pbwalther]

I have had wheel problems over the years. Not as severe as yours. I vary in
weight. Right now I am at 200 lbs. If I get into good shape, I get down to
about 190. And if I get out of shape I can hit 220 or more *gasp*. Odd thing
is that even when I lose weight, I still stress wheels. I guess I go faster
and make up for the lost weight by velocity.

Well, I had reasonably good luck with 36 spoke MA40s but after about 10000
miles, they would come apart on me. Well only the rear wheel.

I now ride Mavic T-519s with 36 straight guage spokes. I believe this is a
mountain bike rim rolled out to road size. At least that was the story. At
anyrate, these things are pretty bullet proof. I have a pair with over 30,000
miles on them. If all else fails, you could give these wheels a try. They put
them on tandems so they should easily do your weight.