Re: Jipped at Snowshoe (24 hrs of..that is)

[Phil, Squid-in-Training]

"Nate" > wrote in message
om...
> Ah yes. Once again it was time for the 24 hours of Snowshoe. Mud,
> roots and pain. I love this race. And this year was no exception,
> however....
>
> I organized a team to race Co-ed pro/am but decided to jump over to 5
> person open since there was no competition in pro/am. Pam and I had
> never ridden with any other riders on this years team, so we wondered
> what we were in for. Everyone seemed to be pretty fast, or so they
> said : )
>
> I had noticed a few days before the race that a team racing under the
> name West Virginia Homegrown had raced in the Expert Class the
> previous year (named Hammerheads) and finished 4th out of 23 teams.
> This year they had the same team plus one guy's wife. In the 5 person
> open, your team may have 1 expert male (no more), at least 1 female,
> and any other males must be sport riders. So I e-mailed Laird Knight
> of this situation. The response was: We will bring this to their
> attention.
>
> At the race, the course was actually quite dry this year and more
> rideable for many. We entered our team under the name Pray for Rain,
> mainly to **** off those with no sense of humor.
>
> During the race, things went as good as could be expected. We had
> one very fast rider, myself and another guy were about the same
> speed, and my g/f Pam and another very fast woman. Our mechanic
> swapped the rear wheel between my bike and Pam's each lap, (I trashed
> my crossmax the week before) and swapped eggbeaters between the other
> rider's bikes as Stuart's broke right before his lap. Our second lady
> was putting on make-up before her laps as if to hook up with some stud
> on the trail. She showed up to her first lap without her scan-in card
> but with some other team's baton!?!?! WTF??? She put out fast lap
> times, so I didn't care about anything else.
>
> During the race, the W.Va. Homegrown team was in the lead (of our
> class) the whole race. No surprise there. So during the last hour of
> the race, I personally found Laird and talked to him about the
> sandbagging situation. He told me that the team right behind us in
> 3rd was going to protest the Homegrown team until they found out they
> too could be DQ'd for sand bagging, so they withdrew their protest.
> So I paid the $50 and put in the protest against W.Va. Homegrown.
> Laird said to make it fair, I may as well file a protest against the
> 3rd place team too. Even though they weren't beating us, I figured
> it was only fair.
>
> After talking to the other teams under protest, Laird was somewhat
> feeling guilty for not doing something about this situation before the
> race, so the Homegrown team could at least switch classes or modify
> their team. So after lots of controversy, (and the Homegrown team
> protesting us) Laird decided to keep the final results as final.
>
> Laird knew he screwed up pretty bad and decided to give our team extra
> prizes to try to quell our anger. He even offered to refund our
> team's entry fee, but I felt that was too much -- I can be a softy
> sometimes. We know Laird and Elizabeth and didn't want to be complete
> jerks about the situation...
>
> At the podium, Laird apologized for the situation involving the 5
> person open category to the crowd. We shook hands with the 3rd place
> team and took our spot on 2nd place. When W.Va. Homegrown was called
> up, mutterings of "sandbaggers" and the such were heard around. Only
> 2 of their riders shook our hands before hopping onto the podium.
> Their team was told to consider themselves experts in the future.
>
> Even though the ending results were jacked, we all had a good race
> and some fun to boot. For all those who skipped out this year for
> fear of too much unrideable mud, you guys missed out. And believe
> me, there were still plenty of slick technical sections for the
> sickos (myself included) who like it hard.
>
> If I am still here come next year, Pam and I will surely be there
> again. Damn, this is a great race.
>

Cool race report. What's sandbagging? And what exactly did they do wrong
again? They had more than one expert?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

[Slacker]

> Cool race report. What's sandbagging? And what exactly did they do wrong
> again? They had more than one expert?
>
> --
> Phil, Squid-in-Training


Sandbagging = Racing in a division that you're too good for when you should be in the next division (or two) up.
--
Slacker

[JD]

(Nate) wrote in message >...
<snip>

Lard is a bungwad.

JD

[Rich]

<big snip>

Sandbagging really sucks. A few years ago some buddies and I entered a
12 hour race in GA as beginners. We were all borderline beginner/sport
riders but none of us had ever done a multi hour event so we figured
beginner class would be about right. We had an unusually good race (no
mishaps whatsoever) on a day were it seemed everyone else was having
problems. We ended pounding the entire beginner *and* sport class, and
actually placed in the top 5 of the experts. We felt really guilty
about it and everyone was calling us sandbaggers. We even tried to get
the race organizers to move us up to expert class with no luck.

Anyway, I don't know how someone could do it intentionally. We all felt
like we were ruining everyone elses race and it really made it hard for
us to enjoy the otherwise fun race.

[Kathleen]

Slacker wrote:
>>Cool race report. What's sandbagging? And what exactly did they do wrong
>>again? They had more than one expert?
>>
>>--
>>Phil, Squid-in-Training
>
>
>
> Sandbagging = Racing in a division that you're too good for when you should be in the next division (or two) up.

In flyball, we handle that situation by establishing a breakout time
based on the seed times submitted by each team. Once the divisions are
sorted out, the breakout time for each division is set at one second
faster than the fastest seed time submitted for that division. If your
team runs faster than that, you lose that heat (and any title points you
might have earned). Do it three times in a day and your team is
automatically DQ'ed from placement in your division. Only in division 1
- the fastest division - is there no breakout time.
If you do a bad job of calculating your seed times, or have to sub in a
faster dog, you wind up having to hold your passes to avoid breaking
out. Not only is it not fun, it's really hard to do, as the dogs will
speed up to try to make up for your slow releases (yes, they know it's a
race).
So I assume that there's nothing like a "breakout" provision in 24 hour
races?

Kathleen

[Phil, Squid-in-Training]

> out. Not only is it not fun, it's really hard to do, as the dogs will
> speed up to try to make up for your slow releases (yes, they know it's a
> race).

Flyball? Dog racing? Sledding? What is it?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

[Phil, Squid-in-Training]

> Anyway, I don't know how someone could do it intentionally. We all felt
> like we were ruining everyone elses race and it really made it hard for
> us to enjoy the otherwise fun race.

To solve the problem, everyone should enter expert.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

[Tom Purvis]

"Slacker" > wrote:
> > What's sandbagging? And what exactly did they do wrong
> > again? They had more than one expert?
>
> Sandbagging = Racing in a division that you're too good
> for when you should be in the next division (or two) up.

The term sandbagging comes from road racing.

As I've heard it, the idea is for two elite riders to enter
a race in a too-low category. They draw straws to see who
the winner will be and agree to split the winnings. When
they show up to the race, they don't know each other--or
even pretend to be old enemies who are likely to have a
fist fight.

The one who is supposed to win takes the lead immediately.

The other one situates himself right in front of the pack
of the remaining racers. Into every corner he jams on his
brakes, forcing the whole pack to slow down as slow as he
does. But he uses his superior sprinting skills to shoot
off out of the corners, keeping anybody from passing him
(because he's really fast enough to just drop the whole
group and chase after his secret buddy, who's off the
front).

He acts like a sandbag, keeping the pack from having any
chance of catching the guy out front.

Strategies like that don't really pan out in off-road
racing, so the term is simply used to refer to somebody
who enters a too-easy category to collect more prizes,
boost his self-esteem, or simply prove he's an asshole.
--
Tom Purvis
Salida, CO - http://www.arkansasvalley.net/tpurvis/

[Rich]

Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
>>Anyway, I don't know how someone could do it intentionally. We all felt
>>like we were ruining everyone elses race and it really made it hard for
>>us to enjoy the otherwise fun race.
>
>
> To solve the problem, everyone should enter expert.
>
>
Or just don't give out prizes, race for fun.

[Stephen Baker]

Team BFD says:

>The term sandbagging comes from road racing.

BS - the term comes from sailing, where a sandbag hidden under the deck gives
you more stability (assuming you remember to switch it to the other side when
you tack) and therefore you win the race due to superior speed.
The idea was so popular that a class of boats called "Sandbaggers" was created
and raced in the mid-1800's, mostly around NY and NJ, using up to a half-ton of
sand in bags that had to be shifted each tack.
.. For those of you who have been to South Street Seaport, there should be one
sitting on the dock somewhere, called "Sandy", IIRC, unless they have allowed
it to rot away again.

Steve

[Kathleen]

Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
>>out. Not only is it not fun, it's really hard to do, as the dogs will
>>speed up to try to make up for your slow releases (yes, they know it's a
>>race).
>
>
> Flyball? Dog racing? Sledding? What is it?

It's a relay race. Four dogs run during any given heat, but there can
be up to six dogs on the roster. Each dog runs down over a series of
four hurdles, triggers a spring loaded box, which fires out a tennis
ball. The dog catches the tennis ball, returns over the hurdles, and
the next dog goes. The first team back with four clean runs wins.
At tournaments, starts are signalled with a light tree, and there are
electric eye sensors that monitor the starting line for accurate starts
and passes.
In a perfect start, the dog's nose crosses the starting line at the
exact moment the light turns green, preferably with the dog already up
to full speed. The amber, amber, green sequence takes exactly 2 seconds
to complete. I release Zane 53 feet from the starting line with the
first amber light. Our start delay is typically in the .003 to .007
second range (He crosses the starting line, already going full-tilt
boogie, no more than .007 seconds after the green light glows).
In a perfect pass, the outbound dog's nose breaks the start beam as
soon as the inbound dog's nose crosses. Too soon, and it's an early
pass, and the offending dog has to re-run. Too late, and you've cost
your team time. And as I mentioned before, the dogs don't cooperate
well with attempts to slow them down with late passes, or starting too
far back.
All in all, it's great fun for the handlers and the dogs. But, as in
any sport, there are people who take it way too seriously. Hence the
anti-sandbagging rules.

Flyball FAQ: http://www.flyballdogs.com/FAQ.html
Flyball Home Page: http://www.flyballdogs.com/

Kahtleen

[Michael Dart]

"Kathleen" > wrote in message
...
> Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
> >>out. Not only is it not fun, it's really hard to do, as the dogs will
> >>speed up to try to make up for your slow releases (yes, they know it's a
> >>race).
> >
> >
> > Flyball? Dog racing? Sledding? What is it?
>
> It's a relay race. Four dogs run during any given heat, but there can
> be up to six dogs on the roster. Each dog runs down over a series of
> four hurdles, triggers a spring loaded box, which fires out a tennis
> ball. The dog catches the tennis ball, returns over the hurdles, and
> the next dog goes. The first team back with four clean runs wins.
> At tournaments, starts are signalled with a light tree, and there are
> electric eye sensors that monitor the starting line for accurate starts
> and passes.
> In a perfect start, the dog's nose crosses the starting line at the
> exact moment the light turns green, preferably with the dog already up
> to full speed. The amber, amber, green sequence takes exactly 2 seconds
> to complete. I release Zane 53 feet from the starting line with the
> first amber light. Our start delay is typically in the .003 to .007
> second range (He crosses the starting line, already going full-tilt
> boogie, no more than .007 seconds after the green light glows).
> In a perfect pass, the outbound dog's nose breaks the start beam as
> soon as the inbound dog's nose crosses. Too soon, and it's an early
> pass, and the offending dog has to re-run. Too late, and you've cost
> your team time. And as I mentioned before, the dogs don't cooperate
> well with attempts to slow them down with late passes, or starting too
> far back.
> All in all, it's great fun for the handlers and the dogs. But, as in
> any sport, there are people who take it way too seriously. Hence the
> anti-sandbagging rules.
>
> Flyball FAQ: http://www.flyballdogs.com/FAQ.html
> Flyball Home Page: http://www.flyballdogs.com/
>
> Kahtleen
>

One tactic I saw was since hurdles are set to the dog with the shortest legs
each team had one dog with really short legs. Which makes for a funny
looking border collie. It was a segment in a show on the breed.

Mike

[Tom Purvis]

(Stephen Baker) wrote:
> Team BFD says:
>
> >The term sandbagging comes from road racing.
>
> BS - the term comes from sailing,
> where a sandbag hidden under the deck gives...

I don't really care where the term was used originally.

Every sport has its slang. Sailing's "sandbagging" is an
interesting story with a lot older tradition than cyclings
"sandbagging". But having to move sand around in a boat
doesn't have a damn thing to do with mountain biking.

What, did early mountain biker racers stash sand on their
bikes, moving it to the left side when making a left turn
in order to gain an unfair advantage? Thus entitling them
to the use of the hallowed slang term taken from sailing?
--
Tom "knows BS when he sees it" Purvis
Salida, CO - http://www.arkansasvalley.net/tpurvis/

[Kathleen]

Michael Dart wrote:
> "Kathleen" > wrote in message
> ...
>
<snip>
>>All in all, it's great fun for the handlers and the dogs. But, as in
>>any sport, there are people who take it way too seriously. Hence the
>>anti-sandbagging rules.
>>
>>Flyball FAQ: http://www.flyballdogs.com/FAQ.html
>>Flyball Home Page: http://www.flyballdogs.com/
>>
>>Kahtleen
>>
>
>
> One tactic I saw was since hurdles are set to the dog with the shortest legs
> each team had one dog with really short legs. Which makes for a funny
> looking border collie. It was a segment in a show on the breed.

Yup. You measure the shortest dog on the team, at the shoulder. That
measurement, minus 4", is your jump height (down to a minimum of 8", and
up to a maximum of 16"). It's a fair tradeoff. If you choose to run a
short dog to get your jump heights down, the big dogs can blaze over
them without breaking stride, but you have to accept the speed penalty
of running a little, short-legged dog.
Most teams, including ours, prefer to run height dogs. Although the
lineups are somewhat fluid, Zane's team is typically made up of all
Border Collies, with a speedy little Jack Russell Terrier named Toast
running last. Our club is chronically short of fast height dogs, so
when I started looking for a dog for Julian to run, I decided to get a JRT.
With Scully, Zane and Cooper, in theory, I now have 75% of a flyball
team living in my home. In practice, though, Zane and Scully's
different speed and capabilities mean they don't usually wind up in the
same line up, and it's far too soon to know how Cooper will turn out.
But since our club generally runs 3 or 4 teams at any given tournament,
spread out between divisions 2 through 7, there will be a slot for him,
no matter how fast or slow he turns out.

Kathleen

[Tom Purvis]

(Stephen Baker) wrote:
> Tom Purvis says:
>
> >I don't really care where the term was used originally.
>
> Then shut TF up about it, and stop whinging already.....
>
> >But having to move sand around in a boat
> >doesn't have a damn thing to do with mountain biking.
>
> Nor does claiming the term originated with road biking.

OK, I know when I've been proven wrong. You guys clearly
know better than I do about this. The term came from either
sailing or card playing (or both!) and not road cycling.

Obviously true since the early mountain bike racers were
a bunch of sailers and card sharks, not land-lubber
ex-roadies or anything.
--
Tom "now I just feel dumb, guess I'll sail down to the casino" Purvis
Salida, CO

[bomba]

Tom Purvis wrote:

> OK, I know when I've been proven wrong. You guys clearly
> know better than I do about this. The term came from either
> sailing or card playing (or both!) and not road cycling.
>
> Obviously true since the early mountain bike racers were
> a bunch of sailers and card sharks, not land-lubber
> ex-roadies or anything.

Hey, I just looked it up, but it's a term that's used in other sports
and even business circles.

[Stephen Baker]

Tom Purvis says:

>OK, I know when I've been proven wrong.

I don't know about "proven", but we're working on it. ;-)

Steve

[Phil, Squid-in-Training]

"Kathleen" > wrote in message
...
> Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
> >>out. Not only is it not fun, it's really hard to do, as the dogs will
> >>speed up to try to make up for your slow releases (yes, they know it's a
> >>race).
> >
> >
> > Flyball? Dog racing? Sledding? What is it?
>
> It's a relay race. Four dogs run during any given heat, but there can

Hey cool - thanks for the description.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

[Phil, Squid-in-Training]

> Then shut TF up about it, and stop whinging already.....

Does everyone on this NG say "whinging?" I've seen it more than 31 times
today.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

[Stephen Baker]

Phil says:

>Does everyone on this NG say "whinging?"

Yes - so stop whinging about it. ;-P

>I've seen it more than 31 times
>today.

Then don't keep reading the same post over and over again. ;-P~~~~~~~~~~~~

Steve

[Mark Webb]

Stop whinging about it too ;-)

Mark