To pass, or not to pass...

[Kathleen]

...That is the question.

Two guys up ahead of me on the trail. Forty-somethings, by the look of
them. Not especially fast, not especially skilled, but then who am I to
talk? The thing is, though, they were going just a bit slower than I
wanted to go. But they kept looking back, and any time I'd start to
speed up to pass, they'd pick up the pace. Well and good, if they'd
manage to keep it up, but no... In no time at all, they'd slack back
off again.
Now, I've been in this position before. There's a mindset that I see
fairly often, that seems to feel that being passed by a 41 year-old
woman is tantamount to finding yourself in calculus class in your
underwear, taking a test you never studied for (in other words, your
worst nightmare).
If I pass, they feel honor bound to catch up and pass, never mind that
that they can't maintain the pace. Rather than put up with it, I'll
usually pull to the side of the trail, have a nice long drink, enjoy the
scenery, and let them get far enough ahead that I can ride my pace, they
can ride theirs, and I don't have to deal with anybody's issues.
This time, though, I was in a perverse mood. I decided to treat it as
an experiment. How well could I control the pace of two complete
strangers, from behind, with no verbal communication at all?
Quite well, as it turns out. Their "normal" pace was about 11 mph. I
could force them up to 15 mph just by speeding up gradually. As soon as
I'd slack off, they'd slow down as well, gasping and gulping. I kept it
up for nearly 5 miles, expecting them to put an end to my game at any
time, simply by pulling over. That's what I do (being a solitary and
antisocial rider, for the most part), when I have even the slightest
suspicion that somebody is toying with me.
But not these guys. Did they have any idea that they were being
deliberately herded? I'll never know. I finally turned off onto a side
trail, and up a hill, and watched as they looked behind them, looked
again, and when they saw the coast was clear, finally, and with every
evidence of relief, pulled over and stopped.

Kathleen
Playin' border collie on the trail...

[spademan o---[\) *]

"Kathleen" > wrote in message
...
> ...That is the question.
>
> Two guys up ahead of me on the trail. Forty-somethings, by the look of
> them. Not especially fast, not especially skilled, but then who am I to
> talk? The thing is, though, they were going just a bit slower than I
> wanted to go. But they kept looking back, and any time I'd start to
> speed up to pass, they'd pick up the pace. Well and good, if they'd
> manage to keep it up, but no... In no time at all, they'd slack back
> off again.
> Now, I've been in this position before. There's a mindset that I see
> fairly often, that seems to feel that being passed by a 41 year-old
> woman is tantamount to finding yourself in calculus class in your
> underwear, taking a test you never studied for (in other words, your
> worst nightmare).
> If I pass, they feel honor bound to catch up and pass, never mind that
> that they can't maintain the pace. Rather than put up with it, I'll
> usually pull to the side of the trail, have a nice long drink, enjoy the
> scenery, and let them get far enough ahead that I can ride my pace, they
> can ride theirs, and I don't have to deal with anybody's issues.
> This time, though, I was in a perverse mood. I decided to treat it as
> an experiment. How well could I control the pace of two complete
> strangers, from behind, with no verbal communication at all?
> Quite well, as it turns out. Their "normal" pace was about 11 mph. I
> could force them up to 15 mph just by speeding up gradually. As soon as
> I'd slack off, they'd slow down as well, gasping and gulping. I kept it
> up for nearly 5 miles, expecting them to put an end to my game at any
> time, simply by pulling over. That's what I do (being a solitary and
> antisocial rider, for the most part), when I have even the slightest
> suspicion that somebody is toying with me.
> But not these guys. Did they have any idea that they were being
> deliberately herded? I'll never know. I finally turned off onto a side
> trail, and up a hill, and watched as they looked behind them, looked
> again, and when they saw the coast was clear, finally, and with every
> evidence of relief, pulled over and stopped.
>
> Kathleen
> Playin' border collie on the trail...
>

Excellent idea Kathleen. Personally I don't have a problem with being passed
by anyone young/old/male/female, sounds like these guys were a couple of
macho idiots but you dealt with them well.

Steve.

[Lefty]

"Kathleen" > wrote in message
...
> ...That is the question.
>
> Two guys up ahead of me on the trail. Forty-somethings, by the look of
> them. Not especially fast, not especially skilled, but then who am I to
> talk? The thing is, though, they were going just a bit slower than I
> wanted to go. But they kept looking back, and any time I'd start to
> speed up to pass, they'd pick up the pace. Well and good, if they'd
> manage to keep it up, but no... In no time at all, they'd slack back
> off again.
> Now, I've been in this position before. There's a mindset that I see
> fairly often, that seems to feel that being passed by a 41 year-old
> woman is tantamount to finding yourself in calculus class in your
> underwear, taking a test you never studied for (in other words, your
> worst nightmare).

They sound pretty clueless. I'd hope that they'd get passed a few times and
figure out the whole trail etiquette ... but who knows. I mean, there are
some clueless folks who stay that way.

(I know I had a lucky break ... the first "girl" who passed me was a NORBA
racer we all knew by reputation. I knew I wasn't going to keep up, and I
got over the "being passed by a girl thing" real quick.)

[snip]

[Sorni]

"Kathleen" > wrote in message
...
> ...That is the question.
>
> Two guys up ahead of me on the trail. Forty-somethings, by the look of
> them. Not especially fast, not especially skilled, but then who am I to
> talk? The thing is, though, they were going just a bit slower than I
> wanted to go. But they kept looking back, and any time I'd start to
> speed up to pass, they'd pick up the pace. Well and good, if they'd
> manage to keep it up

On behalf of 40-somethings everywhere, please find another phrase to use!

(No personal issue; just going for the easy quip.)

(Really.)

:)

Bill

[Craig Brossman]

"Kathleen" > wrote in message
...
> ...That is the question.
>
> Two guys up ahead of me on the trail. Forty-somethings, by the look of
> them. Not especially fast, not especially skilled, but then who am I to
> talk? The thing is, though, they were going just a bit slower than I
> wanted to go. But they kept looking back, and any time I'd start to
> speed up to pass, they'd pick up the pace. Well and good, if they'd
> manage to keep it up, but no... In no time at all, they'd slack back
> off again.
> Now, I've been in this position before. There's a mindset that I see
> fairly often, that seems to feel that being passed by a 41 year-old
> woman is tantamount to finding yourself in calculus class in your
> underwear, taking a test you never studied for (in other words, your
> worst nightmare).
> If I pass, they feel honor bound to catch up and pass, never mind that
> that they can't maintain the pace. Rather than put up with it, I'll
> usually pull to the side of the trail, have a nice long drink, enjoy the
> scenery, and let them get far enough ahead that I can ride my pace, they
> can ride theirs, and I don't have to deal with anybody's issues.
> This time, though, I was in a perverse mood. I decided to treat it as
> an experiment. How well could I control the pace of two complete
> strangers, from behind, with no verbal communication at all?
> Quite well, as it turns out. Their "normal" pace was about 11 mph. I
> could force them up to 15 mph just by speeding up gradually. As soon as
> I'd slack off, they'd slow down as well, gasping and gulping. I kept it
> up for nearly 5 miles, expecting them to put an end to my game at any
> time, simply by pulling over. That's what I do (being a solitary and
> antisocial rider, for the most part), when I have even the slightest
> suspicion that somebody is toying with me.
> But not these guys. Did they have any idea that they were being
> deliberately herded? I'll never know. I finally turned off onto a side
> trail, and up a hill, and watched as they looked behind them, looked
> again, and when they saw the coast was clear, finally, and with every
> evidence of relief, pulled over and stopped.
>
> Kathleen
> Playin' border collie on the trail...
>

Speaking for myself as a 40-something guy, I guess I can understand their
feelings. It is not particularly easy being raised to support a family, be
the pillar of strength, be aggressive in business and athletic life, and
then show our sensitive side when called for, not always be competitive ...

The guys I ride with, particularly those IBM riding partners, are called on
to be competitive at work and have been (and still are) involved in
individual and team sports. I have often heard many of us say something to
the effect "everything is a competition", and I think we really believe it.
It is that aggressive nature that has kept us moving forward in the
corporate world and has driven us to compete with guys half our age on the
basketball court and on the trail. Sometimes we do OK.

I am not defending myself or these guys, there is really nothing to defend.
It is just the nature of the beast, arguably unfortunate. I hope the
situation did not annoy you, it does not sound like it did. Bear in mind, I
am certain it was nothing personal, and probably nothing they have a lot of
control over, it is just (very often) the way we were raised.

(Maybe I'm speaking for others as well)

Craig Brossman, Durango Colorado
(remove .nospam. if replying)

[Kathleen]

Craig Brossman wrote:

<snip>
>
> I am not defending myself or these guys, there is really nothing to defend.
> It is just the nature of the beast, arguably unfortunate. I hope the
> situation did not annoy you, it does not sound like it did. Bear in mind, I
> am certain it was nothing personal, and probably nothing they have a lot of
> control over, it is just (very often) the way we were raised.
>
> (Maybe I'm speaking for others as well)

It didn't annoy me. I had fun with it. I could have put an end to it
at any point simply by stopping. Maybe it was a little... cold-blooded,
poking at them like that, to see what they'd do. But they had the same
options I did.

Kathleen

[Lefty]

"Craig Brossman" > wrote in message
et...

> I am not defending myself or these guys, there is really nothing to
defend.
> It is just the nature of the beast, arguably unfortunate. I hope the
> situation did not annoy you, it does not sound like it did. Bear in mind,
I
> am certain it was nothing personal, and probably nothing they have a lot
of
> control over, it is just (very often) the way we were raised.


I (another 40-something guy) don't like being passed, but I know that's
about me. I don't have any hard feelings toward whoever passes me. I just
want to be fast like them. (OK, I _might_ want to be faster than them. As
soon as that's an attainable goal.)

If these guys are feeling agressive, they should be polite enough to let any
overtaking rider by, and then either hang with them ... or pass them back.

BTW, the second part of that story about being passed by the woman NORBA
racer (she might have been champion that year - late 80's) was that I saw
her on the road later. She was driving a Volkswagen van, and as I passed
her in my car I hunched over the wheel and gave her an evil grin. She
laughed, I hope she thought it was really funny.

[Lefty]

"Kathleen" > wrote in message
...
> Craig Brossman wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >
> > I am not defending myself or these guys, there is really nothing to
defend.
> > It is just the nature of the beast, arguably unfortunate. I hope the
> > situation did not annoy you, it does not sound like it did. Bear in
mind, I
> > am certain it was nothing personal, and probably nothing they have a lot
of
> > control over, it is just (very often) the way we were raised.
> >
> > (Maybe I'm speaking for others as well)
>
> It didn't annoy me. I had fun with it. I could have put an end to it
> at any point simply by stopping. Maybe it was a little... cold-blooded,
> poking at them like that, to see what they'd do. But they had the same
> options I did.

BTW, we had a Border Collie when I was growin up. I know exactly what you
mean ;-)

[Kathleen]

spademan o---[) * wrote:

>
> Excellent idea Kathleen. Personally I don't have a problem with being passed
> by anyone young/old/male/female, sounds like these guys were a couple of
> macho idiots but you dealt with them well.

I don't know if macho is the right word. It sort of implies conscious
intent, and I'm not at all sure how aware these guys were of what they
were doing, let alone what *I* was doing. When they'd look back, were
they thinking, "Ah'm not lettin' no b*tch pass me!", or was it more a
case of being seized by some sort of vague, bone-deep, existential
dread? Maybe neither, maybe both, who knows?
The thing I try to remember is that nobody can *make* you play a game
you don't want to play. There's nothing wrong with playing along, but
it's more fun when you make it a choice, instead of just getting sucked
into it. If it's fun for you to make a race of it out on the trail, go
for it. I can either join in, or opt out. No point to getting rattled
about it.

Kathleen

[BB]

We have a huge park with several miles of fireroads near town, and they
have a few long climbs. I see this sort of behavior all the time there. It
doesn't seem to be just when women riders are approaching, its with
anyone. I see guys start cranking wildly when they realize they're going
to be passed. Most of the "hills" take at least 10-15 minutes to climb
(several hundred feet elevation gain), so riders often burn out before the
climb ends.

Being passed is a bit of a blow to the ego, albeit a very minor one for
most of us. I imagine being passed by a woman makes the blow a little
harder. Personally, I empathize: I'm glad I have the helmet and glasses,
so the younger guys (who often aren't in half the shape they could be)
won't get so freaked out about being passed by someone twice their age.
And if the climb is nearly over, I'll just follow a guy rather than pass
him, even if he's slow enough that I could pass him.

Usually I just avoid those particular fireroads; there are much harder
climbs in the park that the vast majority of riders avoid, and where the
mountain (rather than someone else) is more likely to kick one's butt.
There are no ego issues there. Just pain.

--
-BB-
To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least)

[Paladin]

Kathleen > wrote in message >...


> ...That is the question.

I say pass em and let em eat your dust. I've ridden with guys like
that who would rather cough up a lung and die than let a woman pass.
They're idiots. I was passed by a string of females on a climb in a
race once, and just had to shrug my shoulders, admit they were
younger, stronger, better looking for sure, and maybe even better
<gasp!>. And it's not like I was competing with them for a spot on
the podium. ha. What's the big deal, guys?

On our recent AMB epic, since I was predominantly "the volunteer
sweeper" and I kept it in the middle ring, I often had to stop and let
the slower riders work their way, (or walk their way) through the
tough spots, and then I could remount and ride at my own pace to catch
up, and start the cycle (no pun intended) all over again.

Kinda like your stop, drink, smell the roses, let the jerks get a
substantial lead, type of strategy.

In your case, it is funny when complete strangers give you that kind
of control over them, isn't it?

Paladin

>
> Two guys up ahead of me on the trail. Forty-somethings, by the look of
> them. Not especially fast, not especially skilled, but then who am I to
> talk? The thing is, though, they were going just a bit slower than I
> wanted to go. But they kept looking back, and any time I'd start to
> speed up to pass, they'd pick up the pace. Well and good, if they'd
> manage to keep it up, but no... In no time at all, they'd slack back
> off again.
> Now, I've been in this position before. There's a mindset that I see
> fairly often, that seems to feel that being passed by a 41 year-old
> woman is tantamount to finding yourself in calculus class in your
> underwear, taking a test you never studied for (in other words, your
> worst nightmare).
> If I pass, they feel honor bound to catch up and pass, never mind that
> that they can't maintain the pace. Rather than put up with it, I'll
> usually pull to the side of the trail, have a nice long drink, enjoy the
> scenery, and let them get far enough ahead that I can ride my pace, they
> can ride theirs, and I don't have to deal with anybody's issues.
> This time, though, I was in a perverse mood. I decided to treat it as
> an experiment. How well could I control the pace of two complete
> strangers, from behind, with no verbal communication at all?
> Quite well, as it turns out. Their "normal" pace was about 11 mph. I
> could force them up to 15 mph just by speeding up gradually. As soon as
> I'd slack off, they'd slow down as well, gasping and gulping. I kept it
> up for nearly 5 miles, expecting them to put an end to my game at any
> time, simply by pulling over. That's what I do (being a solitary and
> antisocial rider, for the most part), when I have even the slightest
> suspicion that somebody is toying with me.
> But not these guys. Did they have any idea that they were being
> deliberately herded? I'll never know. I finally turned off onto a side
> trail, and up a hill, and watched as they looked behind them, looked
> again, and when they saw the coast was clear, finally, and with every
> evidence of relief, pulled over and stopped.
>
> Kathleen
> Playin' border collie on the trail...

[MattB]

"Kathleen" > wrote in message
...
> spademan o---[) * wrote:
>
> >
> > Excellent idea Kathleen. Personally I don't have a problem with being
passed
> > by anyone young/old/male/female, sounds like these guys were a couple of
> > macho idiots but you dealt with them well.
>
> I don't know if macho is the right word. It sort of implies conscious
> intent, and I'm not at all sure how aware these guys were of what they
> were doing, let alone what *I* was doing. When they'd look back, were
> they thinking, "Ah'm not lettin' no b*tch pass me!", or was it more a
> case of being seized by some sort of vague, bone-deep, existential
> dread? Maybe neither, maybe both, who knows?
> The thing I try to remember is that nobody can *make* you play a game
> you don't want to play. There's nothing wrong with playing along, but
> it's more fun when you make it a choice, instead of just getting sucked
> into it. If it's fun for you to make a race of it out on the trail, go
> for it. I can either join in, or opt out. No point to getting rattled
> about it.
>
> Kathleen
>

Almost any guy who rides much around here has to get used to being passed by
women. We have several local female World Cup competitors who occasionally
blow by me on the trails. There's no choice in the matter for me. It's like
"Hey, that was <insert famous rider name here>" and before I can be sure
she's gone around the next bend or over the top of a hill. Just part of the
local scene.

Matt

[Raptor]

Kathleen wrote:
> Craig Brossman wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>
>> I am not defending myself or these guys, there is really nothing to
>> defend.
>> It is just the nature of the beast, arguably unfortunate. I hope the
>> situation did not annoy you, it does not sound like it did. Bear in
>> mind, I
>> am certain it was nothing personal, and probably nothing they have a
>> lot of
>> control over, it is just (very often) the way we were raised.
>>
>> (Maybe I'm speaking for others as well)
>
>
> It didn't annoy me. I had fun with it. I could have put an end to
> it at any point simply by stopping. Maybe it was a little...
> cold-blooded, poking at them like that, to see what they'd do. But they
> had the same options I did.
>
> Kathleen

Served 'em right if you ask me. If they're clueless about trail
etiquette, they need to learn the hard way if necessary. If they're too
macho to let themselves get passed by a girl, they need to bring what
they've got. It would've been funny if you ended up herding them into
the ground.

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall
"I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect
our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security."
--Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

[Bob M]

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:03:02 -0600, MattB > wrote:

> "Kathleen" > wrote in message
> ...
>> spademan o---[) * wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Excellent idea Kathleen. Personally I don't have a problem with being
> passed
>> > by anyone young/old/male/female, sounds like these guys were a couple
>> of
>> > macho idiots but you dealt with them well.
>>
>> I don't know if macho is the right word. It sort of implies conscious
>> intent, and I'm not at all sure how aware these guys were of what they
>> were doing, let alone what *I* was doing. When they'd look back, were
>> they thinking, "Ah'm not lettin' no b*tch pass me!", or was it more a
>> case of being seized by some sort of vague, bone-deep, existential
>> dread? Maybe neither, maybe both, who knows?
>> The thing I try to remember is that nobody can *make* you play a game
>> you don't want to play. There's nothing wrong with playing along, but
>> it's more fun when you make it a choice, instead of just getting sucked
>> into it. If it's fun for you to make a race of it out on the trail, go
>> for it. I can either join in, or opt out. No point to getting rattled
>> about it.
>>
>> Kathleen
>>
>
> Almost any guy who rides much around here has to get used to being passed
> by
> women. We have several local female World Cup competitors who
> occasionally
> blow by me on the trails. There's no choice in the matter for me. It's
> like
> "Hey, that was <insert famous rider name here>" and before I can be sure
> she's gone around the next bend or over the top of a hill. Just part of
> the
> local scene.
>
> Matt
>
>
>

You're lucky -- I've yet to see a female rider on the trails I ride, let
alone one that's famous. Perhaps they thought that you didn't want to
pass. Who knows? Personally, I let people pass all the time. I would've
stopped to let Kathleen pass, as I like to go my own pace. If her pace is
faster than mine, I'd stop. If it's slower (which would be unlikely), I'd
probably pass. Last weekend, I met someone, and then we met a group of
riders. Since the group knew the trail back, and we didn't, we followed
them. For my style of riding, they stopped too much. I like to stop once -
- when I'm done. These guys stopped all the time, although sometimes they
stopped to take some drop offs. I'm the type that likes to ride the entire
time I'm out, but I also don't have the skills (or the 7 inches of front
and rear travel -- I have a hardtail) to even attempt what they were
riding.

--
Bob M in CT
Remove 'x.' to reply

[Bob M]

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:28:50 -0600, Raptor > wrote:

> Craig Brossman wrote:
>>
>> Speaking for myself as a 40-something guy, I guess I can understand
>> their
>> feelings. It is not particularly easy being raised to support a family,
>> be
>> the pillar of strength, be aggressive in business and athletic life, and
>> then show our sensitive side when called for, not always be competitive
>> ...
>>
>> The guys I ride with, particularly those IBM riding partners, are called
>> on
>> to be competitive at work and have been (and still are) involved in
>> individual and team sports. I have often heard many of us say something
>> to
>> the effect "everything is a competition", and I think we really believe
>> it.
>> It is that aggressive nature that has kept us moving forward in the
>> corporate world and has driven us to compete with guys half our age on
>> the
>> basketball court and on the trail. Sometimes we do OK.
>>
>> I am not defending myself or these guys, there is really nothing to
>> defend.
>> It is just the nature of the beast, arguably unfortunate. I hope the
>> situation did not annoy you, it does not sound like it did. Bear in
>> mind, I
>> am certain it was nothing personal, and probably nothing they have a lot
>> of
>> control over, it is just (very often) the way we were raised.
>>
>> (Maybe I'm speaking for others as well)
>>
>> Craig Brossman, Durango Colorado
>> (remove .nospam. if replying)
>
> Bah! Why is it so hard to realize that, if you're not an international
> champion bike racer, there's someone out there faster than you? And that
> unless you're a serious competitive racer of any level, that there are
> MANY others out there faster than you?
>
> I don't get passed often, but when I do it's not a big deal. Unless I'm
> on my road bike getting passed by mountain bikers. That stings a little,
> but it only happens if I'm on a recovery ride.
>

I've had that happen before.

--
Bob M in CT
Remove 'x.' to reply

[Tony]

Well Kathleen,

I think you're most probably making the whole thing up.
I can just sense it.
I think you made this fantasy up as you where riding alone.
I'm not saying women are slower than men, just that you live in a world of
make believe.

I think you are sexist and this male female thing has gotten out of control.
Just relax, nobody is out to prove you're the weaker sex.

:-)


"Kathleen" > wrote in message
...
> ...That is the question.
>
> Two guys up ahead of me on the trail. Forty-somethings, by the look of
> them. Not especially fast, not especially skilled, but then who am I to
> talk? The thing is, though, they were going just a bit slower than I
> wanted to go. But they kept looking back, and any time I'd start to
> speed up to pass, they'd pick up the pace. Well and good, if they'd
> manage to keep it up, but no... In no time at all, they'd slack back
> off again.
> Now, I've been in this position before. There's a mindset that I see
> fairly often, that seems to feel that being passed by a 41 year-old
> woman is tantamount to finding yourself in calculus class in your
> underwear, taking a test you never studied for (in other words, your
> worst nightmare).
> If I pass, they feel honor bound to catch up and pass, never mind that
> that they can't maintain the pace. Rather than put up with it, I'll
> usually pull to the side of the trail, have a nice long drink, enjoy the
> scenery, and let them get far enough ahead that I can ride my pace, they
> can ride theirs, and I don't have to deal with anybody's issues.
> This time, though, I was in a perverse mood. I decided to treat it as
> an experiment. How well could I control the pace of two complete
> strangers, from behind, with no verbal communication at all?
> Quite well, as it turns out. Their "normal" pace was about 11 mph. I
> could force them up to 15 mph just by speeding up gradually. As soon as
> I'd slack off, they'd slow down as well, gasping and gulping. I kept it
> up for nearly 5 miles, expecting them to put an end to my game at any
> time, simply by pulling over. That's what I do (being a solitary and
> antisocial rider, for the most part), when I have even the slightest
> suspicion that somebody is toying with me.
> But not these guys. Did they have any idea that they were being
> deliberately herded? I'll never know. I finally turned off onto a side
> trail, and up a hill, and watched as they looked behind them, looked
> again, and when they saw the coast was clear, finally, and with every
> evidence of relief, pulled over and stopped.
>
> Kathleen
> Playin' border collie on the trail...
>

[Jamie]

I think it was a cool thing making the work harder than they wanted to. You
did them some good . I went riding with some 40ish guys at or local trail
showing them the race loop for the weekend. I stopped a lot to let them
catch up .No problem till the found out im 43 and one of the slowest in our
group of riders .I don't take the racer thing that serious but I love riding
..I try to get in better shape but with a daughter and a working wife she put
in 50 hour a week and I put in 50
hard to ride this summer daughter is just not that energetic
for a 9 year old .but keep pushing them and 15mph is not that fast unless
your riding some tight single track . or local hot rods do a average of 13
or so we have some tight single track .they do our 9.3 mile loop in 47-48
Min me I do it in 55 min.
Ride Hard Stay Young!!!!!!

--
J/O Trailblazer At large !!

[David Kunz]

Kathleen wrote:
> ...That is the question.
>
> Two guys up ahead of me on the trail. Forty-somethings, by the look
> of them. Not especially fast, not especially skilled, but then who am I
> to talk? The thing is, though, they were going just a bit slower than I
> wanted to go. But they kept looking back, and any time I'd start to
> speed up to pass, they'd pick up the pace. Well and good, if they'd
> manage to keep it up, but no... In no time at all, they'd slack back
> off again.
....
>
> Kathleen
> Playin' border collie on the trail...

Great idea -- sounds like it was fun :).
But, in their defense... depending on my mood, I sometimes take an
overtaking rider as a challenge -- their sex has nothing to do with it.
It just gives me a push to try harder to stay ahead. I yield as they
get close (I'm not trying to block them), but once they've passed me, I
also try to see how long I can keep up. It helps me push myself. If
it's a woman, it's a plus -- I'd much rather watch a female back going
into the distance :).

David

[Kathleen]

Paladin wrote:
<snip>
> In your case, it is funny when complete strangers give you that kind
> of control over them, isn't it?

That's just it, isn't it?

Really, though, the only time it's really aggravating is when somebody
playing games makes me bobble a climb that I thought I might have a shot
at finishing. That's pretty much a once in blue moon thing, and when I
think about it, if I'd been paying attention, I could have planned for it.

Kathleen

[bomba]

Kathleen wrote:

> It didn't annoy me. I had fun with it. I could have put an end to
> it at any point simply by stopping. Maybe it was a little...
> cold-blooded, poking at them like that, to see what they'd do. But they
> had the same options I did.

Yeah, but you don't have the killer instinct. I would have just kept
tracking them till they had to pull over and collapse, and when they
had, made some witty comment about seeing how long it was going to take
them.

Despite what others have said, I think it's macho bull****. I feel
uncomfortable with someone sitting behind me and will deliberately slow
right down to make them pass if they're not going to do it voluntarily.

If you want to get competitive, go do a race.

[Andrew Thorne]

>
> You can "just sense it", eh? And your vast store of life experience as

>oh, lemme guess, a 20-something year-old white male (*maybe*
>30-something, but that'd be a stretch...), qualifies you to make that
>judgement?
> If I wanted to make something up, I could come up with better than
>that. Not only did it happen, based on the responses by the
>40-something crowd, it happens fairly regularly.
>
>
> And since we're exchanging opinions, I think you're a top-posting
>idjit. I can back my statment up. Can you?
>
>Kathleen
>

Hey Kathleen,

Great story, great post, great fun. Just please don't feed the trolls, eh?

Cheers,

-Andrew "gets passed regularly by both genders, but also agrees with the
poster (I forget who said it) that sometimes having somebody coming up behind
provides both a reminder that you're slacking, as well as some motivation to
step it up a notch. And there's nothing wrong with relying on some external
motivation to, as I once heard somebody say, agonizingly try to become a better
mountain biker" Thorne

[Craig Brossman]

"Raptor" > wrote in message ...
> I don't get passed often, but when I do it's not a big deal. Unless I'm
> on my road bike getting passed by mountain bikers. That stings a
> little, but it only happens if I'm on a recovery ride.
>

Yeah, I only get passed on my recovery rides also, I just choose to name
them that after the passing occurs :)
--
Craig Brossman, Durango Colorado
(remove .nospam. if replying)

[bomba]

Kathleen wrote:

> You can "just sense it", eh? And your vast store of life experience
> as oh, lemme guess, a 20-something year-old white male (*maybe*
> 30-something, but that'd be a stretch...), qualifies you to make that
> judgement?
> If I wanted to make something up, I could come up with better than
> that. Not only did it happen, based on the responses by the
> 40-something crowd, it happens fairly regularly.
>
>
> And since we're exchanging opinions, I think you're a top-posting
> idjit. I can back my statment up. Can you?

And this year's award for 'No Sense of Humour' goes to...

[Stephen Baker]

Sorni says:

>On behalf of 40-somethings everywhere, please find another phrase to use!

I'll second that. Although, if they really WERE over-40's, then I suppose you
have to say it. Just don't go assuming we're all alike.
Personally, i like being passed by girls - the view is better ;-))

Next time you get stuck behind a pair like that, just use two words - "Coming
through", and see how long it takes them to move over..

Steve rapidly approaching 50-something......

[bomba]

Andrew Thorne wrote:

> Great story, great post, great fun. Just please don't feed the trolls, eh?

Troll? What is it with you Septics, can't any of you spot sarcasm or
irony? FFS, he even put in a smiley to help you.

[Kathleen]

Andrew Thorne wrote:
>> You can "just sense it", eh? And your vast store of life experience as
>
>
>>oh, lemme guess, a 20-something year-old white male (*maybe*
>>30-something, but that'd be a stretch...), qualifies you to make that
>>judgement?
>> If I wanted to make something up, I could come up with better than
>>that. Not only did it happen, based on the responses by the
>>40-something crowd, it happens fairly regularly.
>>
>>
>> And since we're exchanging opinions, I think you're a top-posting
>>idjit. I can back my statment up. Can you?
>>
>>Kathleen
>>
>
>
> Hey Kathleen,
>
> Great story, great post, great fun.

Thanks.

Just please don't feed the trolls, eh?

You are, of course correct.
<click>
<right click>
<click>
<click>
<click>
<click>
All done.

> Cheers,
>
> -Andrew "gets passed regularly by both genders, but also agrees with the
> poster (I forget who said it) that sometimes having somebody coming up behind
> provides both a reminder that you're slacking, as well as some motivation to
> step it up a notch. And there's nothing wrong with relying on some external
> motivation to, as I once heard somebody say, agonizingly try to become a better
> mountain biker" Thorne

I get passed pretty routinely, too. Not often by women, because there
aren't many out there. But it's happened. I expect to get smoked by my
daughter just about any time now. I plan to make her work for it. With
strangers, though, I'm more of the "lead, follow or get out of the way"
mentality. It's the halfway that's the pain in the ass.

Kathleen
Mostly gets out of the way...

[BB]

On 15 Jul 2003 19:57:50 GMT, Stephen Baker wrote:

> Although, if they really WERE over-40's, then I suppose you
> have to say it. Just don't go assuming we're all alike.

Is it even relevant? I've seen 20-somethings react pretty much the same
way.

> Steve rapidly approaching 50-something......

It happens so fast, doesn't it?

Personally, I think the funniest thing is when you stop to take a
breather, and some guys pass...then 20 minutes later you pass them while
they're taking a break, and then it happens again a few times. After about
5 times you start running out of things to say!

--
-BB-
To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least)

[Stephen Baker]

BB says:

>Is it even relevant?

Prolly not ;-)

>It happens so fast, doesn't it?

Too dang fast. 50 doesn't even _sound_ old any more. It's only 18 months to
go, but that too will pass in the blink of an eye.

Steve "never too old to have a happy childhood" ;-)

[Jon Bond]

"Kathleen" > wrote in message
...
> ...That is the question.
>
> Two guys up ahead of me on the trail. Forty-somethings, by the look of
> them. Not especially fast, not especially skilled, but then who am I to
> talk? The thing is, though, they were going just a bit slower than I
> wanted to go. But they kept looking back, and any time I'd start to
> speed up to pass, they'd pick up the pace. Well and good, if they'd
> manage to keep it up, but no... In no time at all, they'd slack back
> off again.
> Now, I've been in this position before. There's a mindset that I see
> fairly often, that seems to feel that being passed by a 41 year-old
> woman is tantamount to finding yourself in calculus class in your
> underwear, taking a test you never studied for (in other words, your
> worst nightmare).
> If I pass, they feel honor bound to catch up and pass, never mind that
> that they can't maintain the pace. Rather than put up with it, I'll
> usually pull to the side of the trail, have a nice long drink, enjoy the
> scenery, and let them get far enough ahead that I can ride my pace, they
> can ride theirs, and I don't have to deal with anybody's issues.
> This time, though, I was in a perverse mood. I decided to treat it as
> an experiment. How well could I control the pace of two complete
> strangers, from behind, with no verbal communication at all?
> Quite well, as it turns out. Their "normal" pace was about 11 mph. I
> could force them up to 15 mph just by speeding up gradually. As soon as
> I'd slack off, they'd slow down as well, gasping and gulping. I kept it
> up for nearly 5 miles, expecting them to put an end to my game at any
> time, simply by pulling over. That's what I do (being a solitary and
> antisocial rider, for the most part), when I have even the slightest
> suspicion that somebody is toying with me.
> But not these guys. Did they have any idea that they were being
> deliberately herded? I'll never know. I finally turned off onto a side
> trail, and up a hill, and watched as they looked behind them, looked
> again, and when they saw the coast was clear, finally, and with every
> evidence of relief, pulled over and stopped.
>
> Kathleen
> Playin' border collie on the trail...

LOL, that's pretty funny. I usually ride fairly close to my max, unless I'm
riding with a friend who's slower. I don't usually see too many people
passing me on the trails, unless its while we're stopped for a snack, log,
pictures, or the like. Not that I'm that fast, its just not too many other
people are incredibly speedy either! If somebody passes me, though, whether
from being plain faster or due to a break, my friends and I usually let them
go, then start chasing them. Doesn't hurt them at all, I often see them
speed up when we get behind them, and it pushes us a little bit. Sometimes
we blow up, usually we'll catch them. Unless I'm racing or messin' around
with friends, though, I'll let anybody who looks faster than me (even if I'm
taking a break or going slower than I should be) pass me. If I pass 'em
back, well, thats even better!

One of my favorite pastimes when riding alone, and still have some energy,
is to wait until I come across some riders coming the other way. I continue
on for a bit, depending on how fast they were going (I'll usually go to the
next intersection), turn around, and see if I can chase them down. I did
this on a couple sections of trail a lot last year, and I can now ride those
sections faster than any of my friends - even my friend who's way stronger,
fantastic technically, and has no fear.

Haven't been passed by a girl yet, except in a group ride situation where
you kinda move around in the group to get a change of scenery! When I do,
you can bet I'm gonna try to chase her down though.... and get her digits.

Jon Bond

[Monique Y. Herman]

Craig Brossman wrote:
> Speaking for myself as a 40-something guy, I guess I can understand their
> feelings. It is not particularly easy being raised to support a family, be
> the pillar of strength, be aggressive in business and athletic life, and
> then show our sensitive side when called for, not always be competitive ...
>

Speaking for myself as a 20-something girl who has dealt with this macho
bull**** time and time again ... it gets really old.

It gets old when the guy in your martial arts class won't try to
actually hit you when you're sparring, and he claims that it's because
he's been raised not to hit a girl, rather than admitting that he's
afraid of what it will look like if he actually tries and loses.

It gets old when you're treated as being so inherently frail, simply
because you're female, that for a male to "lose" to you is the height of
indignity.

It gets old hearing terms like "throw like a girl," "run like a girl," etc.

I know that you have no control over how you were raised, and you have
no control over how you feel -- you do, however, have control over one
important thing, and that is how you behave. Just as people who grew up
with racist parents can learn to place a filter between their
unfortunate thoughts and their mouths, so someone who has grown up
believing he needs to be the stereotype of masculinity can learn to
place a filter between his heart and his limbs.

This isn't about showing a sensitive side, by the way. It's about
showing respect.

-- monique

(I'm sure you're a great guy and all. I don't mean this so much as a
rant at you, as a rant of general frustration about this attitude.)

[bomba]

Jon Bond wrote:

> Haven't been passed by a girl yet, except in a group ride situation where
> you kinda move around in the group to get a change of scenery! When I do,
> you can bet I'm gonna try to chase her down though.... and get her digits.

You collect women's fingers? In a bucket?

--
a.m-b FAQ: http://www.t-online.de/~jharris/ambfaq.htm

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[Shaun Rimmer]

Monique Y. Herman > wrote in message
news:Nj4Ra.75086$H17.21709@sccrnsc02...

> Speaking for myself as a 20-something girl who has dealt with this macho
> bull**** time and time again ... it gets really old.
>
> It gets old when the guy in your martial arts class won't try to
> actually hit you when you're sparring, and he claims that it's because
> he's been raised not to hit a girl, rather than admitting that he's
> afraid of what it will look like if he actually tries and loses.
>
> It gets old when you're treated as being so inherently frail, simply
> because you're female, that for a male to "lose" to you is the height of
> indignity.

I see a lot of this/these problem(s), as being added to by the mixed
attitudes of (different) women toward themselves. These days, more and more,
women are taking their rightful places in life (where they can! If only more
of the world was changing for the better in these matters......), and
dealing with what the world throws at them on their own account. But some
are still stuck in the old stereotyped mould of feminine frailty and
helplessness, not to mention those who outright _play_ on that stereotype to
get what they want from men. This leaves a lot of men (rightly or wrongly
so - I'm offering no opinion either way) not knowing how to react toward
women, which way will offend or be judged fair, by which woman. Men too are
seen by some women, in their outdated stereotypical mould, further
exacerbating the longevity of these issues.

On top of all this, we have women trying to _be_ men, and men trying to _be_
women in life (and I'm not talking about gays here), and apart from in odd
cases, this ain't gonna work! There _are_ fundamental differences in the
ways we are put together, and the ways we work, inside and out, physically
and otherwise (TFFT!Heheheheh......) ',;~}~

There is little if anything that is cut-and-dried, black and white in this
world - changing hue and fluidity of form for the most part, rule how people
(generally and specifically) interrelate, and this can make it quite a
challenge to deal with, and grow in the process - hey though, give _me_
'*more*', I _love_ it!

These issues need to be worked on by us _all_, and hopefully, over time,
will at least mostly be resolved.

Anyhow, on a slightly different note, I think women are _ACE_! Love 'em!
Love losing to women, love winning them too - what the hell difference does
it make?

Shaun aRe - We're all Sisters and Brothers under the same sun.

P.s. - These are only my opinions, and therefore, irrefutable fact - if you
don't agree with me, then you need to replace the pea in your head with a
fully functional human brain and think again ',;~}~

P.p.s. - Vive la difference!

[Kathleen]

Shaun Rimmer wrote:

> bomba > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Andrew Thorne wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Great story, great post, great fun. Just please don't feed the trolls,
>
> eh?
>
>>Troll? What is it with you Septics, can't any of you spot sarcasm or
>>irony? FFS, he even put in a smiley to help you.
>
>
> Indeed - that was so obviously sarcasm, even a border collie would have
> picked up on it.
>
>
> Kathleen - stop being a dumb girly, OK? ',;~}~ (Smilie, just in case you
> miss the point, heheheheheh)....

Mmmm...

<review, re-read, re-think>

Nope. Uh uh.

I stand by my initial reaction. A ****-eating grin, whether worn on the
face, or typed onto a screen, does not automatically qualify any and all
statements made as a joke.

Kathleen
"Just 'cause you were smilin' when you said it don't mean I won't knock
those teeth right down your throat."

[Stephen Baker]

bomba says:

>You collect women's fingers? In a bucket?

They make more tender sarnies ;-)

Steve

[bomba]

Stephen Baker wrote:

>>You collect women's fingers? In a bucket?
>
>
> They make more tender sarnies ;-)

True, but I thought you, at least, would have picked up on the
'collecting female body parts in a bucket' reference.

--
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[Shaun Rimmer]

Kathleen > wrote in message
...
> Shaun Rimmer wrote:
>
> > bomba > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>Andrew Thorne wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Great story, great post, great fun. Just please don't feed the trolls,
> >
> > eh?
> >
> >>Troll? What is it with you Septics, can't any of you spot sarcasm or
> >>irony? FFS, he even put in a smiley to help you.
> >
> >
> > Indeed - that was so obviously sarcasm, even a border collie would have
> > picked up on it.
> >
> >
> > Kathleen - stop being a dumb girly, OK? ',;~}~ (Smilie, just in case you
> > miss the point, heheheheheh)....
>
> Mmmm...
>
> <review, re-read, re-think>
>
> Nope. Uh uh.
>
> I stand by my initial reaction. A ****-eating grin,

How do you know it was a '**** eating grin'? Might just as well have been a
'please join in this joke grin', and I am certain it was.

> whether worn on the
> face, or typed onto a screen, does not automatically qualify any and all
> statements made as a joke.

No, but the fact it was _definately_ 'sarcasm' _does_ automatically qualify
it as 'sarcasm'.

Inacuracies in your perceptions of the fact, doesn't change that fact to
suit those inaccuraces, no matter your desire that it should.

> Kathleen
> "Just 'cause you were smilin' when you said it don't mean I won't knock
> those teeth right down your throat."

Oh, hear the big tough macho woman. And of course, you'd not expect
retaliation in kind, what, being a woman an all.

Shaun aRe - Go on, fly off the handle again. Please?

[bomba]

Kathleen wrote:

> I stand by my initial reaction. A ****-eating grin, whether worn on the
> face, or typed onto a screen, does not automatically qualify any and all
> statements made as a joke.

That's ok. I hear being totally humourless and having an inability to
take a joke are attractive qualities in certain parts of the US.

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[Stephen Baker]

bomba says:

>True, but I thought you, at least, would have picked up on the
>'collecting female body parts in a bucket' reference.
>

Whoooooossshhhhhhh..........................

Fraid not ;-( Completely over my head. ;-)

Steve

[bomba]

Shaun Rimmer wrote:

> I see a lot of this/these problem(s), as being added to by the mixed
> attitudes of (different) women toward themselves. These days, more and more,
> women are taking their rightful places in life

The kitchen?

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[bomba]

Stephen Baker wrote:

> How could I forget Shaun's alter ego in "Coupling", especially when the Yanks
> are producing their own (vastly inferior and totally unwatchable) version of it
> this year. What a heinous idea!

Can't wait for the US version. The US has a great history of
transforming great English comdedy programs in to superior versions.
Just like Men Behaving Badly and Ab Fab. Ahem.

Apparently, there's a Friends episode that's a rip-off of the 'Patrick's
cupboard of love' episode.

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[Kathleen]

Shaun Rimmer wrote:

<snip>
> Shaun aRe - Go on, fly off the handle again. Please?
>

I want to see you take off your pants and do the antler dance first.
And even then, it's only a "maybe".

By the way, I have yet to see Tony the Troll emerge from under his
bridge to defend his first and only post to am-b. Why not let him speak
for himself?

Kathleen

[Shaun Rimmer]

bomba > wrote in message
...
> Shaun Rimmer wrote:
>
> > I see a lot of this/these problem(s), as being added to by the mixed
> > attitudes of (different) women toward themselves. These days, more and
more,
> > women are taking their rightful places in life
>
> The kitchen?

Huh - only if she's finished scrubbing the toilet.



Shaun aRe

[Shaun Rimmer]

Stephen Baker > wrote in message
...
> bomba says:
>
> >"She's leaving the country...she doesn't speak English...I insulted her
> >friend's breasts...and she thinks I collect women's ears in a bucket'
>
> Hehehe...... Sorry - obviously having a "senior moment".

That lasts 24/7/52 and round again for you Steve.

> How could I forget Shaun's alter ego in "Coupling",

WTF makes you think he's my alter ego? That guy is positively Mr. Average
Grey next to me. Oh, and I haven't the problems with women he has - they
love me. THEY DO!

> especially when the Yanks
> are producing their own

> (vastly inferior and totally unwatchable)

And where's the surprise in that then?

> version of it
> this year. What a heinous idea!
>
> Steve

Indeed..........



Shaun aRe

[Bob M]

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:34:04 +0200, bomba > wrote:

> Kathleen wrote:
>
>> I stand by my initial reaction. A ****-eating grin, whether worn on the
>> face, or typed onto a screen, does not automatically qualify any and all
>> statements made as a joke.
>
> That's ok. I hear being totally humourless and having an inability to
> take a joke are attractive qualities in certain parts of the US.
>

I think that's the way it is on the East Coast. Not many can take jokes
out here. They're too serious.

--
Bob M in CT
Remove 'x.' to reply

[Shaun Rimmer]

Kathleen > wrote in message
...
> Shaun Rimmer wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > Shaun aRe - Go on, fly off the handle again. Please?
> >
>
> I want to see you take off your pants

Why do women keep saying this to me?!?!?!?

> and do the antler dance first.
> And even then, it's only a "maybe".

Heheheheh - that's more like the you I've seen here before.

> By the way, I have yet to see Tony the Troll emerge from under his
> bridge to defend his first and only post to am-b. Why not let him speak
> for himself?

Wasn't trying to defend him, I was attacking you! Heheheheheh..........

In a while crocodile.


Shaun aRe

[Stephen Baker]

Bob in CT says:

>I think that's the way it is on the East Coast. Not many can take jokes
>out here. They're too serious.

Is that why they forced you to move here, Bob? ;-P

Steve in RI

[Stephen Baker]

bomba says:

>Apparently, there's a Friends episode that's a rip-off of the 'Patrick's
>cupboard of love' episode.

Ah, cr*p! That was so good in the original, too.

Steve

[Stephen Baker]

Shaun R says:

>That lasts 24/7/52 and round again for you Steve.

True..... ;-(

>Oh, and I haven't the problems with women he has - they
>love me. THEY DO!

Methinks he doth protest too much. Obviously delusional.....

Steve ;-)

[Shaun Rimmer]

bomba > wrote in message
...
> Shaun Rimmer wrote:
>
> >>I want to see you take off your pants
> >
> >
> > Why do women keep saying this to me?!?!?!?
>
> Because they're disturbed that you're wearing them on your head.

Since when have aubergines been called 'pants'?!?!?!?


Shaun aRe - "I got a lemon in my pocket!"

[Kathleen]

Shaun Rimmer wrote:
> Kathleen > wrote in message

>>Alright.
>>
>>That's hitting below the belt. You KNOW how much time and mental energy
>>I put into being attractive to strangers via the internet.
>
>
> I seen the photos.......
>
>
>>Now I'm going to have to go lie down in a darkened room with a cold
>>cloth on my head until I feel strong enough to get on with my life.
>
>
> What, the dark room/lying down/cold cloth thing turns you into a man?!?!?!?

Not likely. If it was that simple, I figure you'd have it sorted out by
now, Shaun.

And even if it WAS that easy, I probably wouldn't go for it. Think of
all the time I'd waste trying to recruit obese 9 year-olds and little
old ladies with Alzheimer's as ride buddies so I could slake my
insatiable need to kick ass on the trails.

Kathleen

[JD]

Doug Taylor > wrote in message >...
> Face it: wherever you go, there's
> going to be faster gunslingers, male, female, old, young.

Is there an echo in this NG?

JD

[JD]

"MattB" > wrote
> Almost any guy who rides much around here has to get used to being passed by
> women. We have several local female World Cup competitors who occasionally
> blow by me on the trails. There's no choice in the matter for me. It's like
> "Hey, that was <insert famous rider name here>" and before I can be sure
> she's gone around the next bend or over the top of a hill. Just part of the
> local scene.

The GJ/Fruita scene is much less racer oriented and the better women
riders are very adept at technical terrain. I like to watch...

JD arms of a spotter

[Dave W]

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:25:52 +0100, "Shaun Rimmer"
> wrote:

>
-Snip well put opinion-

>Shaun aRe - We're all Sisters and Brothers under the same sun.
>
>P.s. - These are only my opinions, and therefore, irrefutable fact - if you
>don't agree with me, then you need to replace the pea in your head with a
>fully functional human brain and think again ',;~}~
>
>P.p.s. - Vive la difference!

Damn, how insiteful of you. You're not really Rimmer, are you?

[Westie]

"Shaun Rimmer" > wrote in message
...
>
> Monique Y. Herman > wrote in message
> news:Nj4Ra.75086$H17.21709@sccrnsc02...
>
> > Speaking for myself as a 20-something girl who has dealt with this macho
> > bull**** time and time again ... it gets really old.
> >
> > It gets old when the guy in your martial arts class won't try to
> > actually hit you when you're sparring, and he claims that it's because
> > he's been raised not to hit a girl, rather than admitting that he's
> > afraid of what it will look like if he actually tries and loses.
> >
> > It gets old when you're treated as being so inherently frail, simply
> > because you're female, that for a male to "lose" to you is the height of
> > indignity.
>
> I see a lot of this/these problem(s), as being added to by the mixed
> attitudes of (different) women toward themselves. These days, more and
more,
> women are taking their rightful places in life (where they can! If only
more
> of the world was changing for the better in these matters......), and
> dealing with what the world throws at them on their own account. But some
> are still stuck in the old stereotyped mould of feminine frailty and
> helplessness, not to mention those who outright _play_ on that stereotype
to
> get what they want from men. This leaves a lot of men (rightly or wrongly
> so - I'm offering no opinion either way) not knowing how to react toward
> women, which way will offend or be judged fair, by which woman. Men too
are
> seen by some women, in their outdated stereotypical mould, further
> exacerbating the longevity of these issues.
>
> On top of all this, we have women trying to _be_ men, and men trying to
_be_
> women in life (and I'm not talking about gays here), and apart from in odd
> cases, this ain't gonna work! There _are_ fundamental differences in the
> ways we are put together, and the ways we work, inside and out, physically
> and otherwise (TFFT!Heheheheh......) ',;~}~
>
> There is little if anything that is cut-and-dried, black and white in this
> world - changing hue and fluidity of form for the most part, rule how
people
> (generally and specifically) interrelate, and this can make it quite a
> challenge to deal with, and grow in the process - hey though, give _me_
> '*more*', I _love_ it!
>
> These issues need to be worked on by us _all_, and hopefully, over time,
> will at least mostly be resolved.
>
> Anyhow, on a slightly different note, I think women are _ACE_! Love 'em!
> Love losing to women, love winning them too - what the hell difference
does
> it make?
>
> Shaun aRe - We're all Sisters and Brothers under the same sun.
>
> P.s. - These are only my opinions, and therefore, irrefutable fact - if
you
> don't agree with me, then you need to replace the pea in your head with a
> fully functional human brain and think again ',;~}~
>
> P.p.s. - Vive la difference!
>

Reading this and reading Monique's comment about martial arts reminded me of
this. Not sure how relevant it really is but I thought that it was a nice
little bedtime story about how extreme this 'equality' and 'battle of the
sexes' stuff can get:

A late night bar fight - two sides. One guy and three girls. Some of you
would affectionately call them Rednecks. They'd known each other for years,
bein' in the same small town an' all.

Insults that started as fun got traded, then with more alcohol it got nasty.
Real nasty. The girls got really personal - digging out years of stuff. He
gave it back as good as he could but was losing the verbal battle. He kept
standing his ground, leaning on the bar just to try and keep face.
Then one of the girls comes along the bar, insulting him the whole way. No
doubt she could sense the imminent victory the way a shark smells blood in
the water. She suddenly throws herself bodily at him, catching him off
guard, and slams her shoulder and elbow into him. He flies backwards
through the air for several feet and hits the floor hard. He bounces back
up, embarrassed to have been floored by her. Unbelievably she tries it
again as he's still gathering himself. But this time he instantly reacts by
meeting her rapidly approaching face with his fist.

To cut a long, long story short, he now has a criminal record for assault
and she was awarded damages and costs.
Interestingly she's won assault cases before - the last one was an ex-b/f.

One instance of the _law_ still being sexist. Who started it and who was
acting in self-defence?

As Shaun says, there is little if anything cut and dried about this issue.
This is obviously an extreme case, but even in day-to-day life it's a
complicated issue. There are mixed messages being sent to men and women
about their roles all the time from many different directions.

Having said that, I still that it's hilarious herding those guys on the
bikes along. I know that riding or driving it's easier to travel at the
same speed as the traffic than it is to remain at your own self-regulated
speed. Maybe it was more that than a competitive thing?
--
Westie

[Shaun Rimmer]

Westie > wrote in message
...
>
> "Shaun Rimmer" > wrote in message
> ...


> > Anyhow, on a slightly different note, I think women are _ACE_! Love 'em!
> > Love losing to women, love winning them too - what the hell difference
> does
> > it make?
> >
> > Shaun aRe - We're all Sisters and Brothers under the same sun.
> >
> > P.s. - These are only my opinions, and therefore, irrefutable fact - if
> you
> > don't agree with me, then you need to replace the pea in your head with
a
> > fully functional human brain and think again ',;~}~
> >
> > P.p.s. - Vive la difference!
> >
>
> Reading this and reading Monique's comment about martial arts reminded me
of
> this. Not sure how relevant it really is but I thought that it was a nice
> little bedtime story about how extreme this 'equality' and 'battle of the
> sexes' stuff can get:
>
> A late night bar fight - two sides. One guy and three girls. Some of you
> would affectionately call them Rednecks. They'd known each other for
years,
> bein' in the same small town an' all.
>
> Insults that started as fun got traded, then with more alcohol it got
nasty.
> Real nasty. The girls got really personal - digging out years of stuff.
He
> gave it back as good as he could but was losing the verbal battle. He
kept
> standing his ground, leaning on the bar just to try and keep face.
> Then one of the girls comes along the bar, insulting him the whole way.
No
> doubt she could sense the imminent victory the way a shark smells blood in
> the water. She suddenly throws herself bodily at him, catching him off
> guard, and slams her shoulder and elbow into him. He flies backwards
> through the air for several feet and hits the floor hard. He bounces back
> up, embarrassed to have been floored by her. Unbelievably she tries it
> again as he's still gathering himself. But this time he instantly reacts
by
> meeting her rapidly approaching face with his fist.
>
> To cut a long, long story short, he now has a criminal record for assault
> and she was awarded damages and costs.
> Interestingly she's won assault cases before - the last one was an ex-b/f.
>
> One instance of the _law_ still being sexist. Who started it and who was
> acting in self-defence?
>
> As Shaun says, there is little if anything cut and dried about this issue.
> This is obviously an extreme case, but even in day-to-day life it's a
> complicated issue. There are mixed messages being sent to men and women
> about their roles all the time from many different directions.

Heheheh - this is exactly the type of thing that sets us all back!

I was attacked by a (now) ex (more than once). This particular time (and
believe me, I'd done absolutely _zero_ to deserve even anger - she was a
psycho), she repeatedly and with full force, set about my head with her
hands (she was no little girl either - believe me, it hurt like _hell_). I
took it for as long as I could, tried to block, talk her down etc. Then,
when she landed a particularly vicious blow to the side of my head, I
slapped her face, once, not as hard as she'd been hitting me (I would have
walked away, but she was in the doorway and wouldn't let me pass). She sat
down (quite suddenly I might add) on the bed, stood up again, screamed and
cursed at me "YOU HIT _ME_?!?!?!? You ****ING *******!!!!!!" over and over
in the most horrified and indignant tone, like she had every right to hit
me, and I had none. She then tried to call the police, but she'd already
ripped the phone out of its socket when she threw it at me earlier. I just
left.

This is the only time I have ever done that, and I only feel regret that I
didn't punch the bitch full ****ing force in the face.

Anyone starts getting violent with me, they forfeit _any_ and all rights
(that I have already made a given within my own ethics) to be treated any
different (apart from kids of course - you just sit on them until they wear
themselves out, heheheheh.....).

Shaun aRe - Most definitely not a violent person by nature (ask anyone who
knows me) - I abhor violence with a passion.

[Shaun Rimmer]

Kathleen > wrote in message
...
> Shaun Rimmer wrote:
> > Kathleen > wrote in message
>
> >>Alright.
> >>
> >>That's hitting below the belt. You KNOW how much time and mental energy
> >>I put into being attractive to strangers via the internet.
> >
> >
> > I seen the photos.......
> >
> >
> >>Now I'm going to have to go lie down in a darkened room with a cold
> >>cloth on my head until I feel strong enough to get on with my life.
> >
> >
> > What, the dark room/lying down/cold cloth thing turns you into a
man?!?!?!?
>
> Not likely. If it was that simple, I figure you'd have it sorted out by
> now, Shaun.

Heheheheh - I was waiting for that ',;~}~

> And even if it WAS that easy, I probably wouldn't go for it. Think of
> all the time I'd waste trying to recruit obese 9 year-olds and little
> old ladies with Alzheimer's as ride buddies so I could slake my
> insatiable need to kick ass on the trails.

Sexism rocks, doesn't it little girly? ',;~}~


Shaun aRe - Remember folks, sexism cuts _both_ ways.

[Bob M]

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:57:56 +1200, Westie >
wrote:

>> Monique Y. Herman > wrote in message
>> news:Nj4Ra.75086$H17.21709@sccrnsc02...
>>
>> > Speaking for myself as a 20-something girl who has dealt with this
>> macho
>> > bull**** time and time again ... it gets really old.
>> >
>> > It gets old when the guy in your martial arts class won't try to
>> > actually hit you when you're sparring, and he claims that it's because
>> > he's been raised not to hit a girl, rather than admitting that he's
>> > afraid of what it will look like if he actually tries and loses.
>> >
>> > It gets old when you're treated as being so inherently frail, simply
>> > because you're female, that for a male to "lose" to you is the height
>> of
>> > indignity.
>>

I'd be more than happy to hit you while sparring, or lose to you. It
matters not to me. And, I've personally never treated a woman as if she
was frail.

--
Bob M in CT
Remove 'x.' to reply

[Monique Y. Herman]

Bob M wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:57:56 +1200, Westie >
> wrote:
>
> I'd be more than happy to hit you while sparring, or lose to you. It
> matters not to me. And, I've personally never treated a woman as if she
> was frail.
>

Sure, not every guy has the kinds of issues I described ... it's
prevalent enough in "our" society (by which I mean the US), though, that
it's not an uncommon view to hold.

Heh. My dad, who's visiting to help us move into our new house, has
been tsk-tsking the bruises I acquired in my first two days of clipless.
We have a history of this -- I go out and do something fun, then
come home and proudly show my battle scars. Dad grimaces and changes
the subject.

-- monique

[Monique Y. Herman]

The same guy who keeps telling me that his $150 7-speed is perfect for
him and who complains about butt-bruises but, when I suggest getting
actual padded bike shorts, refuses because he doesn't want to have to
spend any time preparing for his bike rides?

Amusing thought, but I'd just as soon spend the money on the house my
fiance and I just bought =)

-- monique

Stephen Baker wrote:
> Monique says:
>
>
>> We have a history of this -- I go out and do something fun, then
>>come home and proudly show my battle scars. Dad grimaces and changes
>>the subject.
>
>
> So buy Dad a mountain bike - it's never too late to have a happy childhood.
> Maybe he'll see the light.
>
> Steve