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pluto
August 25th 03, 01:11 PM
does anyone know of a hub that is square tapered that is stronger than a
suzue?
and what would the height of a drop be with a suzue hub and unbreakable
cranks on a 24" with someone 10 stone with a roll out after?
thanks


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m_extreme_uni
August 26th 03, 12:55 AM
there is a custom hub out there, i think it's made by Steve Howard that
is stronger than the Suzue.

My first Uni had a suzue hub and some Kooka cranks (very strong) and
about 3 months after learning to ride i tried a 6 ft drop off a
dumpster, and snapped the axle.

I'd say with good technique the most you'd be able to get away with is
3.5 feet (repeated)

I d'ont think a suzue would break after just one big drop, but it's the
repeated pounding that eventually will cause it to fail.

If you are really concerned, and plan on doing 4+ foot drops,
consistantly, then buy the profiles, or Onza, or KH hub. Splined is
definately the way to go.

-Ryan


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pluto
August 27th 03, 01:50 PM
thanks any other view?
why is it there isn't any other strong square tapered hubs available?
splined are only 20% stronger and stiffer than sq so why do they seem to
be so much stronger?????
aaron


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johnfoss
August 27th 03, 06:23 PM
pluto wrote:
> *splined are only 20% stronger and stiffer than sq so why do they seem
> to be so much stronger????? *
I don't know where you get the 20% figure. Is it a 20% thicker axle?
That's not the whole story. The square taper design is simply inferior
for unicycles. We put way more stress on the hub/crank interface than
bicycling, so we need something stronger. So no matter what you find in
a square taper, it will probably never be able to match a splined axle,
even if equal axle diameter.

Note: Jump heights are also a very rough way to measure an axle's
strength. There are many varying factors, the most important of which is
rider technique. Plus, steel axles don't (usually) break from a few hard
impacts. The metal fatigues, as a cumulative effect of all the cranking,
braking, hopping, and drops you do. A heavier rider with better
technique will be able to use the same axle longer than a much lighter
rider with poor technique, and so forth.

So that 20% figure I don't think has anything to do with the relative
longevity of square taper vs. splined axles on unicycles. I'd say it's
probably closer to 100%, though there are too many factors to really
give out a number. Profiles are probably stronger than DMs, which are
probably stronger than the less expensive KHs, etc.

For heavy pounding, get splined. Any splined.


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showard
August 27th 03, 07:50 PM
I've made four square taper hubs. As far as I know all four are still
unbroken.

Harper has one of them. When he stopped by on the way to NAUCC I was
happy to see that the axle was still going strong even though the
aluminum cranks were trashed. Anyone who's seen Harper ride knows that
he's fearless and will try about anything ... he's not easy on
equipment.

Paco has another one. From reading his posts it sounds like his hub is
getting a good workout along with the rest of the MUni.

Maybe these hubs I've made are stronger than a Suzue ...

But just to echo what John already said, there's major problems with
using square taper axles on unicycles. The axle size doesn't really
matter on a square taper axle because the weak part is just inboard of
the cranks where the square part of the axle comes out of the crank. No
matter what size the axle is, that square part will always be the
same.

A splined axle will be stronger because the cross sectional area of the
axle where is leaves the crank arm is larger than a square taper. In
theory a Profile axle will be stronger than a DM or KH because the
spline depth is shallow on a Profile, leaving a larger "root diameter" -
thus more material.

Also, the strength of an axle increases roughly to the power of three as
the diameter increases. The result is that a little bigger diameter
makes a large increase in strength. That's why the larger root diameter
of the Profile axle makes it the strongest even though the "axle
diameter" of all the splined axles is the same. But Profiles aren't
without their faults too.

I don't think the best unicycle axle has been designed and built yet. I
know that a very light and strong axle could be made but the problem is
that it wouldn't work with any frame or crank arm that's available now.
Everything would have to be totally custom and very expensive.

Steve Howard


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scottw
August 27th 03, 09:01 PM
I found information on this hub at Muniac.com. It sounds like it's a
tough hub. But, I don't know if you can buy it or how much it might
cost.

Here is the link.

http://tinyurl.com/866f


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john_childs
August 27th 03, 09:28 PM
showard wrote:
> *
> A splined axle will be stronger because the cross sectional area of
> the axle where is leaves the crank arm is larger than a square taper.
> In theory a Profile axle will be stronger than a DM or KH because the
> spline depth is shallow on a Profile, leaving a larger "root diameter"
> - thus more material.
>
> Also, the strength of an axle increases roughly to the power of three
> as the diameter increases. The result is that a little bigger diameter
> makes a large increase in strength. That's why the larger root
> diameter of the Profile axle makes it the strongest even though the
> "axle diameter" of all the splined axles is the same. But Profiles
> aren't without their faults too.
> *

I believe that the KH hub is a little bit larger diameter than the
Profile hub. The Profile hub uses bearings with a 19mm ID while the KH
hub uses bearings with a 20mm ID. The Profile will still have a larger
root diameter though because the Profile splines are so shallow.


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evilewan
August 28th 03, 05:25 PM
tomblackwood wrote:
> *
> This from that same thread referenced above:
>
> Like the chef, I don't give out my recipes. *[/i]


sureley though if all the chefs colaborated they could create a better
recipie, than any one chef could produce alone.


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Sofa
August 28th 03, 07:18 PM
S_Wallis wrote:
> *
> But whose name would be on the restaurant? *


I'd rather be a nameless co-owner of McDonalds than the sole owner of
one local restaurant


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S_Wallis
August 28th 03, 07:47 PM
Sofa wrote:
> *
>
> I'd rather be a nameless co-owner of McDonalds than the sole owner of
> one local restaurant *
McDonald's is the result of a colaboration of the finest chefs?


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Sofa
August 28th 03, 07:51 PM
S_Wallis wrote:
> *McDonald's is the result of a colaboration of the finest chefs? *


fine enough!


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S_Wallis
August 28th 03, 08:09 PM
Bringing this full-circle, the Suzue hub is somewhere between a Big Mac
and Profiles. It is good enough for many and profitable for it's
manufacturer. What many others are looking for is a hub served at a
medium price sit down family restaurant.:confused:


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Sofa
August 28th 03, 08:10 PM
i'm hungry


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evilewan
August 28th 03, 09:34 PM
i don`t like the mcdonalds idea,

i`d prefer it to be a bit more like microsoft vs linux.
microsoft makes the money but fsf/gnu/linux is better software.
nobody with knolege of computers seriously denys that. the objections to
free software are mainly political.

mcdonalds care only about making money and not making good food.

however if you want a realy nice hamburger you can learn to make one
yourself that will be much tastier and nutritious than mcdonalds will.
perhaps if everybody worked together then we could together make the
perfect hamburger recipe,
of course everybody wants their hamburger diferent, so we design a
recipe that has options built into it.
in the end it becomes more than just a hamburger recipe , it becomes an
interactive hamburger design process. capable of designing a taylor made
hamburger for each person.


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S_Wallis
August 28th 03, 09:56 PM
evilewan wrote:
> *... capable of designing a taylor made hamburger for each person. *
"Taylor made for each person" works for food and code, but not
manufactured items. It is all about how many of the exact same product
you are going to make. Most people have no concept of how much it costs
to design, engineer, prototype, test, manufacture, market, distribute,
warranty,...
It amazes me anything ever gets to market, the obstacles are huge.
Collaboration is great, but most people with the resources (overhead) to
do those things can't wait for something to hopefully pay off down the
road, they have to pay the bills now. And splitting the take several
ways on a product with a very small potential market makes it less
likely to create a profit.
Be patient, as the market grows, we'll get more good stuff.

Scott


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johnfoss
August 28th 03, 10:09 PM
Or, to stick with the food analogy, say Scott Bridgeman is Col. Sanders.
He figured out the famous recipe; did all the work, so he chooses to
reap whatever benefits there may be.

But if unicycling ever reaches the McDonald's/KFC level, the product
will probably resemble a Torker more than anything else...


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S_Wallis
August 28th 03, 11:12 PM
daino149 wrote:
> *
> By the end of the process, I expect to have on the market a hub 20%
> better then the good ole Suz at perhaps 5x the price.
>
> Anyone want in on this?
>
> Daniel *
Exactly.

I wish you would switch your avatar to boxers, it's getting hot down
here.


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evilewan
August 29th 03, 04:42 AM
but we already do have good products.

take them sem xl frame for example.

you can buy the same component from many diferent suppliers, all over
the world. its cheap and its good. it seems to have become a generic
item, its design in the public domain

if somebody found the recipe for colonel sanders chicken dish what would
happen anyway?
fast food empires are built upon marketing stratergies rather than
quality products.

keeping designs secret realy befifits no-body in a market like this.
if something is available for everybody to re-brand then the price goes
down. if the price goes down then the suppliers can sell more units.

"sem xl" frames are everywhere with diferent names on them, does sem
actualy get a cut on each one?
or does some factory in taiwan have the tooling and accept orders from
anyone?


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Cumbria_Muni&Trials_Club
August 29th 03, 07:46 AM
Getting back to the subject - Showard said
"But Profiles aren't without their faults too. "

Profiles are expensive hubs and if you could afford them are they not
the best? Technically, how could they be improved from their current
design?

Simon Rolph

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joemarshall
August 29th 03, 10:09 AM
The only problem with Profiles is that the splines may wear out after a
lot of riding because the splines are so small, meaning having to
warranty them. Which given there's no uk importer for unicycle stuff
would mean sending them back to the USA and probably paying lots of
postage. The most obvious manifestation of this problem is the squeaking
thing, which is the sound of the cranks moving slightly on the splines
or something like that, this will eventually wear down the splines. If
there were less splines, they'd take longer to wear down enough to be a
problem and hopefully be a better fit so not move anywhere near as much.
However, I dunno if anyone has actually done this, lots of people have
creaks, but I don't know if it's gone further yet. Anyone?

I don't understand the point of making a custom square taper, it limits
the crank choice even more than the splined hubs do. If it's going to
cost lots, might as just buy a KH crankset or similar, which should be
significantly more than 20% stronger than a suzue hub surely? At least
with a KH/onza/qu-ax crankset you can get some BMX cranks that fit it as
well as the cranks it comes with.

Joe


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Cumbria_Muni&Trials_Club
August 29th 03, 11:37 AM
Joe said
"At least with a KH/onza/qu-ax crankset you can get some BMX cranks that
fit it as well as the cranks it comes with. "

Can you use any BMX cranks though? Are the splines on the KH, QU-AX and
Onza made to one standard such as ISIS? I thought they all had a
different number of splines.

Simon


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joemarshall
August 29th 03, 01:10 PM
Cumbria_Muni&Trials_Club wrote:
> *Joe said
> "At least with a KH/onza/qu-ax crankset you can get some BMX cranks
> that fit it as well as the cranks it comes with. "
>
> Can you use any BMX cranks though? Are the splines on the KH, QU-AX
> and Onza made to one standard such as ISIS? I thought they all had a
> different number of splines.
>
> Simon *

They're not standard, but other bmx cranks with the same number of
splines will work.

KH hubs use 8 spline bmx cranks, there's a few makes, although I think
the only very short ones are expensive DM Engineering custom ones (dunno
how much they are in the UK), QU-AX are I think 10 spline, meaning
different bmx cranks will work, and Onza are 40 spline, meaning onza bmx
cranks will work.

With all these hubs, you've got at least 140/145 and 170 easily
available, rather than having to use custom cut down cranks which are
presumably pretty expensive if you want new ones.

Obviously the profile situation of being able to buy lots of different
lengths as stock cranks would be best though.

Joe


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Cumbria_Muni&Trials_Club
August 29th 03, 03:14 PM
Joe or anyone else,
I don't mean to boil the cabbages more than once if others have already
mentioned this but how many splines have profile cranks and how many
splines do the ISIS satandard ones have?

Simon


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S_Wallis
August 29th 03, 03:28 PM
Cumbria_Muni&Trials_Club wrote:
> *Joe or anyone else,
> I don't mean to boil the cabbages more than once if others have
> already mentioned this but how many splines have profile cranks and
> how many splines do the ISIS satandard ones have?
>
> Simon *
Some of that cabbage was boiled in another thread: '\"Profile hubs\"'
(http://tinyurl.com/llfc) (Profiles have 48)
Here is a page with some good info on ISIS and others: 'Park tool page'
(http://tinyurl.com/llfd)

Scott


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johnfoss
August 29th 03, 08:09 PM
evilewan wrote:
> *"sem xl" frames are everywhere with diferent names on them, does sem
> actualy get a cut on each one? or does some factory in taiwan have the
> tooling and accept orders from anyone? *
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure "Sem XL" is just one of the
many names attached to frames from "Factory X" in Taiwan. I'm pretty
sure that frame design existed before Semcycle adopted it for its XL
line. It's a good design, so many others have ordered and used it as
well.

But some of the changes and improvements to those frames over the years
may have come from Semcycle. The long neck frame, for example. Their
deal with the manufacturer could be that they only get made for
Semcycle, or it may be that the manufacturer gives them a lower price in
exchange for letting them offer that frame to other customers as well.

> *keeping designs secret realy befifits no-body in a market like this.
>
> if something is available for everybody to re-brand then the price
> goes down. if the price goes down then the suppliers can sell more
> units.*
This is true, but I accept the designer's right to decide what to do
with his design. If, when a supplier is found, and the designer can make
a deal for a small royalty on each frame made, that should be his
perogative.

But as we know, in our itty bitty market, even sharing a design in a way
such as this will not add up to much unless unicycling becomes a more
mainstream sport.

Someone else asked what's wrong with Profiles. Though they seem to hold
up great, the answer is obvious: the noise! My DMs never made a sound.


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evilewan
August 29th 03, 10:20 PM
"factory x", thats funny.
it sounds all super hero.

i`ve seen long neck xl frames from others apart from sem. including when
i was at seigmono in germany.

profiles are pertty good, but 1 year and a million drops later mine are
begining to become loose. i realy am glad i`ve got that warranty.

as far as improvements to the profile
reducing the spline count and adding an extra keyway.
the axle is probaby overspecified so it could be fractionaly thinner to
reduce weight.
isn`t that what the new onza hubs are like though?


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merrill
September 3rd 03, 07:04 PM
This just in...

http://muniac.com/store/hub_ad.jpg


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