A lesson from Pete (first aid)

[MTB Lover]

I read Pete Fagerlin's web page for the first time tonight. Nice page
BTW. Looking at the carnage update, it made me think what a good idea it
is to bring some basic first aid items onto the trail with me. I can
only assume most of you do this, I use a Blow out Bag under my seat,
plus whatever I can fit in my Camelback. What items have prove most
useful for a space conscious rider?
--
Jerry

remove the nospam and the period to email me.

[Penny S]

MTB Lover's cat walked across a keyboard and came up with this:
> I read Pete Fagerlin's web page for the first time tonight. Nice page
> BTW. Looking at the carnage update, it made me think what a good idea
> it is to bring some basic first aid items onto the trail with me. I
> can only assume most of you do this, I use a Blow out Bag under my
> seat, plus whatever I can fit in my Camelback. What items have prove
> most useful for a space conscious rider?

Here's what I keep in a ziplock:

gloves, gauzes, tape, betadine/alcohol wipes, neosporin pockets, TP and
feminine necessities.

You can rinse things with your camel back, wipe up the blood with the gauze
and use some morewith tape to cover things until you get home. The uses of
TP etc should be obvious.

Penny

[Paladin]

Penny S wrote:

> MTB Lover's cat walked across a keyboard and came up with this:
>
>>I read Pete Fagerlin's web page for the first time tonight. Nice page
>>BTW. Looking at the carnage update, it made me think what a good idea
>>it is to bring some basic first aid items onto the trail with me. I
>>can only assume most of you do this, I use a Blow out Bag under my
>>seat, plus whatever I can fit in my Camelback. What items have prove
>>most useful for a space conscious rider?
>>
>
> Here's what I keep in a ziplock:
>
> gloves, gauzes, tape, betadine/alcohol wipes, neosporin pockets, TP and
> feminine necessities.
>
> You can rinse things with your camel back, wipe up the blood with the gauze
> and use some morewith tape to cover things until you get home. The uses of
> TP etc should be obvious.
>
> Penny
>
That's an impressive kit, (since I saw you get to use it one time.) ;)


Here's a summary of what I have. Sock tops, (great to slide over an arm
or leg to hold a bandage on, or to soak up blood, bandaids, antiseptic
stuff, tape, gauze, 4x4's, sprain wrap (forgot the name)tiny first aid
kit, alcohol wipes, ibuprofens, tums, other crap I can't think of now.
Thinking of adding gloves and a surgical type of superglue.

All fits real well in the Mule. And I've used it all a time or two.

Paladin

[Jon Bond]

"Paladin" > wrote in message ...
>
>
> Penny S wrote:
>
> > MTB Lover's cat walked across a keyboard and came up with this:
> >
> >>I read Pete Fagerlin's web page for the first time tonight. Nice page
> >>BTW. Looking at the carnage update, it made me think what a good idea
> >>it is to bring some basic first aid items onto the trail with me. I
> >>can only assume most of you do this, I use a Blow out Bag under my
> >>seat, plus whatever I can fit in my Camelback. What items have prove
> >>most useful for a space conscious rider?
> >>
> >
> > Here's what I keep in a ziplock:
> >
> > gloves, gauzes, tape, betadine/alcohol wipes, neosporin pockets, TP and
> > feminine necessities.
> >
> > You can rinse things with your camel back, wipe up the blood with the
gauze
> > and use some morewith tape to cover things until you get home. The uses
of
> > TP etc should be obvious.
> >
> > Penny
> >
> That's an impressive kit, (since I saw you get to use it one time.) ;)
>
>
> Here's a summary of what I have. Sock tops, (great to slide over an arm
> or leg to hold a bandage on, or to soak up blood, bandaids, antiseptic
> stuff, tape, gauze, 4x4's, sprain wrap (forgot the name)tiny first aid
> kit, alcohol wipes, ibuprofens, tums, other crap I can't think of now.
> Thinking of adding gloves and a surgical type of superglue.

Gloves good, glue bad. Throw some steri-strips or butterfly bandages in
there instead.

The problem with the glue is that it basically replaces stitches. However,
it needs a very smooth edge to work well, which means a clean cut. It also
means that its semi-permanent, and if there's any dirt or whatnot in there
(which there's bound to be) it probably can't be opened back up to take that
junk out. It's not strong enough to hold a large gouge closed, unless it
isn't spreading much.

Steri strips are a very good alternative. They're basically stretchy strips
of adhesive. You put it on one side, stretch it to the other, and it closes
the cut up really nicely. They're easy to take off, they're surprisingly
strong, they'll keep things closed even when its moving and stretching (like
when you need to bike out...), and they're a lot less likely to end up
making your first aid kit a solid block of glued bandages.

> All fits real well in the Mule. And I've used it all a time or two.

Similar to my pack. Lots of gauze (rolls and 4x4 sheets), bandaids, little
triple antibiotic packets, sprain wrap (which self sticks and can compress
wounds like mad), ace bandage (which doesn't, but is more useful in some
situations because it can slide on itself some), medical tape. Also
ibuprofen (not asprin, which can thin the blood!), possibly some vicoprofen
(vicadin+ibuprofen) I've still got left over from wisdom teeth removal for
when things get really bad, epipen (I don't have it, but I should), matches
if you're out in the boonies (or a lighter), and on and on. A knife is
always nice too - if I'm on a long ride, my leatherman comes with me.

> Paladin

Jon Bond

[JD]

MTB Lover > wrote in message >...
> I read Pete Fagerlin's web page for the first time tonight. Nice page
> BTW. Looking at the carnage update, it made me think what a good idea it
> is to bring some basic first aid items onto the trail with me. I can
> only assume most of you do this, I use a Blow out Bag under my seat,
> plus whatever I can fit in my Camelback. What items have prove most
> useful for a space conscious rider?

Skill.

JD

[MTB Lover]

JD wrote:
> MTB Lover > wrote in message >...
>
>>I read Pete Fagerlin's web page for the first time tonight. Nice page
>>BTW. Looking at the carnage update, it made me think what a good idea it
>>is to bring some basic first aid items onto the trail with me. I can
>>only assume most of you do this, I use a Blow out Bag under my seat,
>>plus whatever I can fit in my Camelback. What items have prove most
>>useful for a space conscious rider?
>
>
> Skill.
>
> JD
I would assume no matter what your skill level, you are always pushing
your limits. That is where the first aid kit comes in :)

--
Jerry

remove the nospam and the period to email me.

[kantspel]

>>What items have prove most
>>useful for a space conscious rider?
>
> Skill.
>
> JD

That doesn't help if a buddy (or stranger) bites it. I've only had to
patch myself up once but have helped others plenty of times. I've also
seen enough freak accidents to know that skill isn't always enough.

Same for tools, they get used on other peoples bikes a lot more than mine.

[BB]

On 18 Nov 2003 09:04:48 -0800, JD wrote:
> MTB Lover > wrote in message >...
>> I read Pete Fagerlin's web page for the first time tonight. Nice page
>> BTW. Looking at the carnage update, it made me think what a good idea it
>> is to bring some basic first aid items onto the trail with me. I can
>> only assume most of you do this, I use a Blow out Bag under my seat,
>> plus whatever I can fit in my Camelback. What items have prove most
>> useful for a space conscious rider?
>
> Skill.

Or, lacking that, common sense. I've really had very few reasons to patch
myself (or my riding buds) up over the past several years.

--
-BB-
To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least)
"It's a shallow life that doesn't give a person a few scars" - Garrison Keillor

[P e t e F a g e r l i n]

On 18 Nov 2003 19:23:47 GMT, BB > wrote:

>On 18 Nov 2003 09:04:48 -0800, JD wrote:
>> MTB Lover > wrote in message >...
>>> I read Pete Fagerlin's web page for the first time tonight. Nice page
>>> BTW. Looking at the carnage update, it made me think what a good idea it
>>> is to bring some basic first aid items onto the trail with me. I can
>>> only assume most of you do this, I use a Blow out Bag under my seat,
>>> plus whatever I can fit in my Camelback. What items have prove most
>>> useful for a space conscious rider?
>>
>> Skill.
>
>Or, lacking that, common sense. I've really had very few reasons to patch
>myself (or my riding buds) up over the past several years.

If you think that "common sense" is sufficient enough to save you from
an accident, then we have different definitions of "accident."

pete fagerlin

::Revolutionary! Evolutionary! Yet so retro!
::www.yestubes.com

[Paladin]

kantspel wrote:

> >>What items have prove most
>
>>> useful for a space conscious rider?
>>
>>
>> Skill.
>>
>> JD
>
>
> That doesn't help if a buddy (or stranger) bites it. I've only had to
> patch myself up once but have helped others plenty of times. I've also
> seen enough freak accidents to know that skill isn't always enough.
>
> Same for tools, they get used on other peoples bikes a lot more than mine.
>

Same here. I've come upon biffed, bleeding fools, and patched them up.
I've watched crashes and sped to help. I yelled across a small canyon
once telling this doof to go home and get a helmet. 30 mins later I'd
caught him and he was a mask of blood where he'd cut his chin & forehead
open. Given (and used) those sock-type bandages at least half a dozen
times. Slide them up my calf, or on my arm. Gave out the ibuprofen a
few times. Took the tums when my all-you-can-eat Chinese or recent
beer-n-pizza caught up with a 6-mile climb. Biffed it pretty good once
coming down a rocky creekbed real careful-like when a big beetle slammed
into my ear and tried to hitch the remainder of the ride in there. Now
that's pure joy. A bloody yard sale. yadda, yadda, yadda.

So I'll still carry a lot of crap, and I'll take Bond's advice on
skipping the glue. Just that a lot of boxing injuries are now being
closed up with glue, so I thought it made sense for riding, too.

Paladin

[Stephen Baker]

MTB Lover says:

>I would assume no matter what your skill level, you are always pushing
>your limits.

Not me, Bubba! I know my limits and stay inside them coz I's a WUSS. Too damn
old to start breakin' bones now. (Well, I _feel_ old, anyhoo)

Steve "wimp"

[Mojo Deluxe]

"Stephen Baker" > wrote in message
...
> MTB Lover says:
>
> >I would assume no matter what your skill level, you are always pushing
> >your limits.
>
> Not me, Bubba! I know my limits and stay inside them coz I's a WUSS. Too
damn
> old to start breakin' bones now. (Well, I _feel_ old, anyhoo)
>
I don't crash that often, simply because I do stay within my limits, and
still manage to have fun. I've only had one major biff, and it was a freak
thing. There was no blood involved, but there was plenty bump, bruises, a
slight concussion, and one damaged Bell helmet. Of all places to endo, it
was dropping into a canal with chunks of concrete in the bottom resembling
rocks.

> Steve "smart"

Steve, I fixed it for you.

[Stephen Baker]

Mojo Deluxe says:

<snip>

>Of all places to endo, it
>was dropping into a canal with chunks of concrete in the bottom resembling
>rocks.

Good choice! ;-)

>> Steve "smart"
>
>Steve, I fixed it for you.

Thanks - I needed that.....

[(Pete Cresswell)]

RE/
>What items have prove most
>useful for a space conscious rider?

Dunno from "space concious" but the thoroughtly-paranoid rider carries a little
squeeze bottle of betadyne - antibiotic-resistant staph and all that....
--
PeteCresswell

[Mojo Deluxe]

"Stephen Baker" > wrote in message
...
> Mojo Deluxe says:
>
> <snip>
>
> >Of all places to endo, it
> >was dropping into a canal with chunks of concrete in the bottom
resembling
> >rocks.
>
> Good choice! ;-)
>
Funny thing was, as out of it as I was, the first thing, before I did an
inventory of what was hurt, I drug my bike out of the water. Priorities,
man!

> >> Steve "smart"
> >
> >Steve, I fixed it for you.
>
> Thanks - I needed that.....
>
Hey, I'm not the most daring rider in the world.

[Zilla]

"P e t e F a g e r l i n" > wrote in message
...
> On 18 Nov 2003 19:23:47 GMT, BB > wrote:
>
> >On 18 Nov 2003 09:04:48 -0800, JD wrote:
> >> MTB Lover > wrote in message
>...
> >>> I read Pete Fagerlin's web page for the first time tonight. Nice page
> >>> BTW. Looking at the carnage update, it made me think what a good idea
it
> >>> is to bring some basic first aid items onto the trail with me. I can
> >>> only assume most of you do this, I use a Blow out Bag under my seat,
> >>> plus whatever I can fit in my Camelback. What items have prove most
> >>> useful for a space conscious rider?
> >>
> >> Skill.
> >
> >Or, lacking that, common sense. I've really had very few reasons to patch
> >myself (or my riding buds) up over the past several years.
>
> If you think that "common sense" is sufficient enough to save you from
> an accident, then we have different definitions of "accident."
>
> pete fagerlin
>
> ::Revolutionary! Evolutionary! Yet so retro!
> ::www.yestubes.com

How about instinct discerned from riding, riding, riding, and more riding?

--
- Zilla
Cary, NC
(Remove XSPAM)

[P e t e F a g e r l i n]

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:37:32 -0500, "Zilla"
> wrote:

>> If you think that "common sense" is sufficient enough to save you
from
>> an accident, then we have different definitions of "accident."

>How about instinct discerned from riding, riding, riding, and more
riding?

Key word:

"accident"

[Mojo Deluxe]

"P e t e F a g e r l i n" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:37:32 -0500, "Zilla"
> > wrote:
>
> >> If you think that "common sense" is sufficient enough to save you
> from
> >> an accident, then we have different definitions of "accident."
>
> >How about instinct discerned from riding, riding, riding, and more
> riding?
>
> Key word:
>
> "accident"

Minimized by common sense.

[ctg]

"Zilla" > wrote in message
...
> "P e t e F a g e r l i n" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On 18 Nov 2003 19:23:47 GMT, BB > wrote:
> >
> > >On 18 Nov 2003 09:04:48 -0800, JD wrote:
> > >> MTB Lover > wrote in message
> >...
> > >>> I read Pete Fagerlin's web page for the first time tonight. Nice
page
> > >>> BTW. Looking at the carnage update, it made me think what a good
idea
> it
> > >>> is to bring some basic first aid items onto the trail with me. I can
> > >>> only assume most of you do this, I use a Blow out Bag under my seat,
> > >>> plus whatever I can fit in my Camelback. What items have prove most
> > >>> useful for a space conscious rider?
> > >>
> > >> Skill.
> > >
> > >Or, lacking that, common sense. I've really had very few reasons to
patch
> > >myself (or my riding buds) up over the past several years.
> >
> > If you think that "common sense" is sufficient enough to save you from
> > an accident, then we have different definitions of "accident."
> >
> > pete fagerlin
> >
> > ::Revolutionary! Evolutionary! Yet so retro!
> > ::www.yestubes.com
>
> How about instinct discerned from riding, riding, riding, and more riding?

Isn't that a definition of skill?

Chris

>
> --
> - Zilla
> Cary, NC
> (Remove XSPAM)
>
>
>

[P e t e F a g e r l i n]

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:16:46 -0600, "Mojo Deluxe"
> wrote:

>
>"P e t e F a g e r l i n" > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:37:32 -0500, "Zilla"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >> If you think that "common sense" is sufficient enough to save
you
>> from
>> >> an accident, then we have different definitions of "accident."
>>
>> >How about instinct discerned from riding, riding, riding, and more
>> riding?
>>
>> Key word:
>>
>> "accident"
>
>Minimized by common sense.

But not eliminated.

That's why they are called accidents.

[Mojo Deluxe]

"P e t e F a g e r l i n" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:16:46 -0600, "Mojo Deluxe"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"P e t e F a g e r l i n" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:37:32 -0500, "Zilla"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >> If you think that "common sense" is sufficient enough to save
> you
> >> from
> >> >> an accident, then we have different definitions of "accident."
> >>
> >> >How about instinct discerned from riding, riding, riding, and more
> >> riding?
> >>
> >> Key word:
> >>
> >> "accident"
> >
> >Minimized by common sense.
>
> But not eliminated.
>
> That's why they are called accidents.
>
I agree.

[Stephen Baker]

Pete Fagerlin says:

>That's why they are called accidents.

C'mon, Pete - you KNOW that the whole concept of "accidents" has been outlawed
by the American legal profession. Someone always has to be at fault, or they
wouldn't make any money.....

Steve "Damn, I wish I wasn't serious about that"

[Pete]

"Stephen Baker" > wrote in message
...
> Pete Fagerlin says:
>
> >That's why they are called accidents.
>
> C'mon, Pete - you KNOW that the whole concept of "accidents" has been
outlawed
> by the American legal profession. Someone always has to be at fault, or
they
> wouldn't make any money.....

Doesn't have to be "somebody", just not "me".

Pete

[Craig Brossman]

Stephen Baker wrote:

> Pete Fagerlin says:
>
>
>>That's why they are called accidents.
>
>
> C'mon, Pete - you KNOW that the whole concept of "accidents" has been outlawed
> by the American legal profession. Someone always has to be at fault, or they
> wouldn't make any money.....
>
> Steve "Damn, I wish I wasn't serious about that"

I was thinking the same thing. As far as I know, your local police
department does not consider one car hitting another (or something else)
an accident in any situation. Hence they usually issue a ticket.

--
Craig Brossman, Durango Colorado
(remove ".nospam" to reply)

[Bill Porter]

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 04:28:31 GMT, MTB Lover >
wrote:

>I read Pete Fagerlin's web page for the first time tonight. Nice page
>BTW. Looking at the carnage update, it made me think what a good idea it
>is to bring some basic first aid items onto the trail with me. I can
>only assume most of you do this, I use a Blow out Bag under my seat,
>plus whatever I can fit in my Camelback. What items have prove most
>useful for a space conscious rider?

Here is my first aid kit that I keep in a ziplockmy camelbak all the
time. It weighs next to nothings and take up little room.
2 - Antibacterial ointment packs (single use)
2 - Antiseptic Pads
3 - 3x4" Triple layer nonstick pads
4 - 800mg motrin
1 - 3"gauze bandage
First Aid tape - About 5' of it taken off the roll and rewrapped flat
4 - large bandaids
4 - small bandaids
4 - Cotton swabs
A little sheet of paper with inventory on it.

Bill Porter
www.mountainbikebill.com

[John Atkinson]

"Jon Bond" > wrote in message >...

long list snipped... and why not a bob trailer?

being slightly old school and ever so slightly tongue in cheek, give
me an example of an accident where adequate first aid could not be
performed simply with what you are wearing??

[Jon Bond]

"John Atkinson" > wrote in message
om...
> "Jon Bond" > wrote in message
>...
>
> long list snipped... and why not a bob trailer?
>
> being slightly old school and ever so slightly tongue in cheek, give
> me an example of an accident where adequate first aid could not be
> performed simply with what you are wearing??

I personally wouldn't want to wrap my muddy, nasty jersey around my arm when
its bleeding profusely. Not to mention the very high risk of shock with a
severe injury, which can quickly lead to hypothermia (especially if you were
sweating and its windy), so I'd like to keep my clothing on, thanks.
Especially with the minimal clothing you wear biking. Not to mention
getting adequate compression of a deep wound or one that knicks an artery
(and yes, I've heard of it happening. Or, for example, when you get a stick
jammed into your side so deep it punctures your lung - I know somebody first
hand that it's happened to).

There's no way you can keep a gash that's deep enough to spread closed with
just a thin coolmax jersey. And then get out of there. Its just not going
to happen. A roll of gauze is tiny; Steristrips are tiny, A roll of medical
tape is useful for more than just first aid, and a self-sticking compressive
bandage is small too. I wouldn't bring them racing, but I've used my kit
more than a few times on the trail, or back at my car when I didn't feel the
need to bring it with me. If you're not a weight weenie, and you're already
using a camelbak, why not fill up the extra space with a few things that
could save your hide?

Jon Bond

[Jon Bond]

"Zilla" > wrote in message
...
> "P e t e F a g e r l i n" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On 18 Nov 2003 19:23:47 GMT, BB > wrote:
> >
> > >On 18 Nov 2003 09:04:48 -0800, JD wrote:
> > >> MTB Lover > wrote in message
> >...
> > >>> I read Pete Fagerlin's web page for the first time tonight. Nice
page
> > >>> BTW. Looking at the carnage update, it made me think what a good
idea
> it
> > >>> is to bring some basic first aid items onto the trail with me. I can
> > >>> only assume most of you do this, I use a Blow out Bag under my seat,
> > >>> plus whatever I can fit in my Camelback. What items have prove most
> > >>> useful for a space conscious rider?
> > >>
> > >> Skill.
> > >
> > >Or, lacking that, common sense. I've really had very few reasons to
patch
> > >myself (or my riding buds) up over the past several years.
> >
> > If you think that "common sense" is sufficient enough to save you from
> > an accident, then we have different definitions of "accident."
> >
> > pete fagerlin
> >
> > ::Revolutionary! Evolutionary! Yet so retro!
> > ::www.yestubes.com
>
> How about instinct discerned from riding, riding, riding, and more riding?
>
> --
> - Zilla
> Cary, NC
> (Remove XSPAM)

How bout my tube getting a slow leak near the top of a DH course, and then
rolling halfway off the rim, sending me headfirst into the ground at just
the right angle to keep my helmet from taking most of the impact? Or when I
got caught up on an easy section because a rock moved a tiny bit, and even
though I didn't crash, I ended up with a nice deep 2.5" gash on my leg from
the chainring that I needed stitches for (and didn't get... heh, its my leg,
I don't care if it scars). Or how about the 3' wheelie drop when your
freehub decides to not engage? Been there.....

**** happens. If you go out and push your limits, it happens more. Even if
you don't, though, freak accidents can still get you.

Lets take racecar drivers, for example. They drive, drive, and drive
more... and then more still. Doesn't keep that random accident from
happening - whether because they push it a little tiny bit too far, or
because something just doesn't work right, or just because sometimes, it
happens!

Jon Bond

[Dave W]

Craig Brossman > had this to say
t

> Stephen Baker wrote:
>
>> Pete Fagerlin says:
>>
>>
>>>That's why they are called accidents.
>>
>>
>> C'mon, Pete - you KNOW that the whole concept of "accidents" has been
>> outlawed by the American legal profession. Someone always has to be
>> at fault, or they wouldn't make any money.....
>>
>> Steve "Damn, I wish I wasn't serious about that"
>
> I was thinking the same thing. As far as I know, your local police
> department does not consider one car hitting another (or something
> else) an accident in any situation. Hence they usually issue a ticket.
>

Unless it (the accident) happens on private property.

[Kathleen]

Zilla wrote:

> "P e t e F a g e r l i n" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>On 18 Nov 2003 19:23:47 GMT, BB > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On 18 Nov 2003 09:04:48 -0800, JD wrote:
>>>
>>>>MTB Lover > wrote in message
>
> >...
>
>>>>>I read Pete Fagerlin's web page for the first time tonight. Nice page
>>>>>BTW. Looking at the carnage update, it made me think what a good idea
>
> it
>
>>>>>is to bring some basic first aid items onto the trail with me. I can
>>>>>only assume most of you do this, I use a Blow out Bag under my seat,
>>>>>plus whatever I can fit in my Camelback. What items have prove most
>>>>>useful for a space conscious rider?
>>>>
>>>>Skill.
>>>
>>>Or, lacking that, common sense. I've really had very few reasons to patch
>>>myself (or my riding buds) up over the past several years.
>>
>>If you think that "common sense" is sufficient enough to save you from
>>an accident, then we have different definitions of "accident."
>>
>>pete fagerlin
>>
>>::Revolutionary! Evolutionary! Yet so retro!
>>::www.yestubes.com
>
>
> How about instinct discerned from riding, riding, riding, and more riding?
>

So I guess you're not only immune to the vagaries of trail conditions,
weather, wildlife and your own "rider errors", you're also invulnerable
to other trail-users' screw-ups as well?

Oooohkay.....

Kathleen

[(Pete Cresswell)]

RE/
>being slightly old school and ever so slightly tongue in cheek, give
>me an example of an accident where adequate first aid could not be
>performed simply with what you are wearing??

Road rash infected with antibiotic-resistant staph.

From what I've read so far, minutes count and an hour can cost you a limb if not
your life.

Couple years ago, a guy around here (SouthEast Penna, USA) took a spill. Can't
recall whether he died or just lost a leg...but I do recall he got medical
attention in a timeframe that seemed reasonably prompt to me as I read the story
in a local newspaper.
--
PeteCresswell

[Zilla]

"P e t e F a g e r l i n" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:37:32 -0500, "Zilla"
> > wrote:
>
> >> If you think that "common sense" is sufficient enough to save you
> from
> >> an accident, then we have different definitions of "accident."
>
> >How about instinct discerned from riding, riding, riding, and more
> riding?
>
> Key word:
>
> "accident"

Here's a close analogy...

It's deer season here in NC and I ride some backwoods on my way to work.
The other day, a deer suddenly crossed my path and I could have easily hit
it.
Since I've been driving for over 20+ yrs now, I've developed some instincts
to
avoid road hazards, so I was able to slow down enough and swerve around it.

I avoided an "accident" (key word) through "discerned instinct" because of
driving, driving, driving, and more driving.

--
- Zilla
Cary, NC
(Remove XSPAM)

[P e t e F a g e r l i n]

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:28:15 -0500, "Zilla"
> wrote:

>"P e t e F a g e r l i n" > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:37:32 -0500, "Zilla"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >> If you think that "common sense" is sufficient enough to save
you
>> from
>> >> an accident, then we have different definitions of "accident."
>>
>> >How about instinct discerned from riding, riding, riding, and more
>> riding?
>>
>> Key word:
>>
>> "accident"
>
>Here's a close analogy...
>
>It's deer season here in NC and I ride some backwoods on my way to
work.
>The other day, a deer suddenly crossed my path and I could have
easily hit
>it.
>Since I've been driving for over 20+ yrs now, I've developed some
instincts
>to
>avoid road hazards, so I was able to slow down enough and swerve
around it.
>
>I avoided an "accident" (key word) through "discerned instinct"
because of
>driving, driving, driving, and more driving.

So do you think that due to your wonderful driving ability you can
avoid all deer now?

Keyword:

"accident"

[Zilla]

"P e t e F a g e r l i n" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:28:15 -0500, "Zilla"
> > wrote:
>
> >"P e t e F a g e r l i n" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:37:32 -0500, "Zilla"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >> If you think that "common sense" is sufficient enough to save
> you
> >> from
> >> >> an accident, then we have different definitions of "accident."
> >>
> >> >How about instinct discerned from riding, riding, riding, and more
> >> riding?
> >>
> >> Key word:
> >>
> >> "accident"
> >
> >Here's a close analogy...
> >
> >It's deer season here in NC and I ride some backwoods on my way to
> work.
> >The other day, a deer suddenly crossed my path and I could have
> easily hit
> >it.
> >Since I've been driving for over 20+ yrs now, I've developed some
> instincts
> >to
> >avoid road hazards, so I was able to slow down enough and swerve
> around it.
> >
> >I avoided an "accident" (key word) through "discerned instinct"
> because of
> >driving, driving, driving, and more driving.
>
> So do you think that due to your wonderful driving ability you can
> avoid all deer now?
>
> Keyword:
>
> "accident"
>

I don't have a "wonderful driving ability" as my wife would testify! :)

So far I've avoided "all" deer, but I concur, I may not be so lucky,
or instinctive, on the next one. My point is, I had better chances
avoiding the "accident" being a 20-yr driver, vs. had I only been
driving for 20 mins. all my life. Stopping and steering the car was
instinctive.

So far I'm still accident prone on a bike since I've only been riding
for 2+ yrs. But I hope my "chances" of avoiding them increase as
I get better. Not ALL, but some..



--
- Zilla
Cary, NC
(Remove XSPAM)

[John Atkinson]

"Jon Bond" > wrote in message >...
> "John Atkinson" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Jon Bond" > wrote in message
> >...
> >
> > long list snipped... and why not a bob trailer?
> >
> > being slightly old school and ever so slightly tongue in cheek, give
> > me an example of an accident where adequate first aid could not be
> > performed simply with what you are wearing??
>
> I personally wouldn't want to wrap my muddy, nasty jersey around my arm when
> its bleeding profusely. Not to mention the very high risk of shock with a
> severe injury, which can quickly lead to hypothermia (especially if you were
> sweating and its windy), so I'd like to keep my clothing on, thanks.
> Especially with the minimal clothing you wear biking. Not to mention
> getting adequate compression of a deep wound or one that knicks an artery
> (and yes, I've heard of it happening. Or, for example, when you get a stick
> jammed into your side so deep it punctures your lung - I know somebody first
> hand that it's happened to).
>
> There's no way you can keep a gash that's deep enough to spread closed with
> just a thin coolmax jersey. And then get out of there. Its just not going
> to happen. A roll of gauze is tiny; Steristrips are tiny, A roll of medical
> tape is useful for more than just first aid, and a self-sticking compressive
> bandage is small too. I wouldn't bring them racing, but I've used my kit
> more than a few times on the trail, or back at my car when I didn't feel the
> need to bring it with me. If you're not a weight weenie, and you're already
> using a camelbak, why not fill up the extra space with a few things that
> could save your hide?
>
> Jon Bond

OK, steristrips and tape are good news, your waterproof/windproof and
a bit of tape will save your life with the sucking chest wound that is
such a real possibility. Remember that where I ride you carry a fair
bit of clothing.

But I draw the line at the epi-pens and the drug cabinet unless you
personally have a pre-existing medical condition, you might as well
carry a defib, you are much more likely to save a life.

There is a significant difference between first aid and medicine.

I work on the assumption that I am fit and healthy, my rides are
invariably of a half day to one day in length (and often shorter),
they are not in complete wilderness areas and I have access to clean
and sterile conditions after the ride.

Most people's posts in this group would suggest that they are similar.
Let's not confuse riding in wilderness or lesser developed countries
(or as a group leader with responsibility for the group) with going
for a spin on the bike. (My 'first aid kit' for these trips is
definitely more of a medical bag.)

And don't forget the cell-phone.

A last teaser, in what first aid situations can you apply a pair of
arm warmers...

[Penny S]

John Atkinson murmured while asleep:
>
> OK, steristrips and tape are good news, your waterproof/windproof and
> a bit of tape will save your life with the sucking chest wound that is
> such a real possibility. Remember that where I ride you carry a fair
> bit of clothing.
>
> But I draw the line at the epi-pens and the drug cabinet unless you
> personally have a pre-existing medical condition, you might as well
> carry a defib, you are much more likely to save a life.
>
> There is a significant difference between first aid and medicine.

well I'd agree with that... but the farther you are out, the more stuff you
need.
>
> I work on the assumption that I am fit and healthy, my rides are
> invariably of a half day to one day in length (and often shorter),
> they are not in complete wilderness areas and I have access to clean
> and sterile conditions after the ride.

A lot of us do ride in "wilderness". ( remember the "mountain" in mountain
biking?) It maybe hours before there's access to "clean and sterile"
conditions. The kit my group carries on a typcial all day Idaho epic is
going to be bigger than the kit I take on an in town local, and the
wilderness emergency kit is always at the trailhead.... where I ride, the
trail head may be several hours from EMS.

>
> Most people's posts in this group would suggest that they are similar.
> Let's not confuse riding in wilderness or lesser developed countries
> (or as a group leader with responsibility for the group) with going
> for a spin on the bike. (My 'first aid kit' for these trips is
> definitely more of a medical bag.)
>
> And don't forget the cell-phone.

Only if you know that it's going to work. IMO, it's lame to depend on a cell
phone to get you out of trouble. There are lot of folks here, my self
included who regulary head out into areas with no cell phone coverage. A
cell phone is pretty lame insurance once you head out of a metro area. It
also encourages not having to be responsible for one self.

You've got some good points but you are being way too general.

>
> A last teaser, in what first aid situations can you apply a pair of
> arm warmers...

to cover arm trail rash, hold gauze and tape in place, use an an emergency
tourniquet ( extreme situation application), wipe up blood, emergency wound
dressing....

Penny S

[Craig Brossman]

John Atkinson wrote:

>
> Most people's posts in this group would suggest that they are similar.
> Let's not confuse riding in wilderness or lesser developed countries
> (or as a group leader with responsibility for the group) with going
> for a spin on the bike. (My 'first aid kit' for these trips is
> definitely more of a medical bag.)
>
> And don't forget the cell-phone.
>
> A last teaser, in what first aid situations can you apply a pair of
> arm warmers...

Probably true in general, but not here in Western Colorado. Mostly
wilderness rides, cell phones often don't work, other riders sometimes
the exception.
I will admit though, as things get technical in these situations, I am
less inclined to "go for it". Same is true on more local rides when I am
solo.

--
Craig Brossman, Durango Colorado
(remove ".nospam" to reply)

[JD]

(John Atkinson) wrote in message >...
<snip>
> And don't forget the cell-phone.

Yeah Linus, don't forget your security blanket.

JD

[John Atkinson]

(JD) wrote in message >...
> (John Atkinson) wrote in message >...
> <snip>
> > And don't forget the cell-phone.
>
> Yeah Linus, don't forget your security blanket.
>
> JD

Good Grief! JD I guess irony doesn't do well on usenet...

Having just tried to junk everyone's gear I then think they should
carry a bloody 'phone? Pah!

Ptuuiii!!

[Penny S]

John Atkinson murmured while asleep:
> (JD) wrote in message
> >...
>> (John Atkinson) wrote in message
>> >... <snip>
>>> And don't forget the cell-phone.
>>
>> Yeah Linus, don't forget your security blanket.
>>
>> JD
>
> Good Grief! JD I guess irony doesn't do well on usenet...
>
> Having just tried to junk everyone's gear I then think they should
> carry a bloody 'phone? Pah!
>
> Ptuuiii!!

You have to put a smiley in there. A lot of folks really do think a cell
phone is a good substitute for maps, experience, first aid skills, common
sense. lack of planning, poor equipment etc.

Penny

[John Atkinson]

"Penny S" > wrote in message >...
> John Atkinson murmured while asleep:
> > (JD) wrote in message
> > >...
> >> (John Atkinson) wrote in message
> >> >... <snip>
> >>> And don't forget the cell-phone.
> >>
> >> Yeah Linus, don't forget your security blanket.
> >>
> >> JD
> >
> > Good Grief! JD I guess irony doesn't do well on usenet...
> >
> > Having just tried to junk everyone's gear I then think they should
> > carry a bloody 'phone? Pah!
> >
> > Ptuuiii!!
>
> You have to put a smiley in there. A lot of folks really do think a cell
> phone is a good substitute for maps, experience, first aid skills, common
> sense. lack of planning, poor equipment etc.
>
> Penny

you're right. And a lot of folks jump into threads without 'listening'
and without context in order to make their own little points and
further their own agendas. Hmm, not sure that I should be surprised at
that ;-)

Still if they carry a cell phone, even without the items in your list
they should keep 911 controllers in business so we can look forward to
more 'wit' from the resident hairy bum.

[JD]

(John Atkinson) referred to me as:
<snip>
> the resident hairy bum.

How does it feel to be as clueless as spankie?

JD

[John Atkinson]

(JD) referred to me as:
> <snip>
as clueless as spankie?

yawn...

you really do have a 'singletrack' mind :-)

[Sorni]

"John Atkinson" > wrote in message
om...
> (JD) referred to me as:
> > <snip>
> > as clueless as spankie?
>
> yawn...

> you really do have a 'singletrack' mind :-)

Dishonest quoting. You went first ("hairy bum"); JD then asked how it feels
to be as clueless as spankie (different from CALLING you as clueless as
spankie).

Bill "pass the mashed potatoes" S.

[John Atkinson]

"Sorni" > wrote in message >...
> "John Atkinson" > wrote in message
> om...
> > (JD) referred to me as:
> > > <snip>
> > > as clueless as spankie?
> >
> > yawn...
>
> > you really do have a 'singletrack' mind :-)
>
> Dishonest quoting. You went first ("hairy bum"); JD then asked how it feels
> to be as clueless as spankie (different from CALLING you as clueless as
> spankie).
>
> Bill "pass the mashed potatoes" S.

I do hope we are not going to get 'serious' about this. I think the
name calling began a little earlier but the 'singletrack' mind comment
was an attempt to lighten it up, even flagged by a smiley for the hard
of thinking.

There is a clear implication in JD's post, I took it lightly rather
than personally, who knows (bar the man himself) how it was intended.
Its all gone a long way from the value and content of first aid kits
hasn't it?

I carried a first aid kit on a ride for the first time in ages last
weekend - it was a race, I had to. So if a race organiser insists on
'first aid kits' being carried, as in most things to do with racing
people will try and carry as little as possible.This is where I came
into the thread really, what constitutes the minimum content for a
first aid kit?

[spademan o---[\) *]

"John Atkinson" > wrote in message
om...
> "Sorni" > wrote in message
>...
> > "John Atkinson" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > (JD) referred to me as:
> > > > <snip>
> > > > as clueless as spankie?
> > >
> > > yawn...
> >
> > > you really do have a 'singletrack' mind :-)
> >
> > Dishonest quoting. You went first ("hairy bum"); JD then asked how it
feels
> > to be as clueless as spankie (different from CALLING you as clueless as
> > spankie).
> >
> > Bill "pass the mashed potatoes" S.
>
> I do hope we are not going to get 'serious' about this. I think the
> name calling began a little earlier but the 'singletrack' mind comment
> was an attempt to lighten it up, even flagged by a smiley for the hard
> of thinking.
>
> There is a clear implication in JD's post, I took it lightly rather
> than personally, who knows (bar the man himself) how it was intended.
> Its all gone a long way from the value and content of first aid kits
> hasn't it?
>
> I carried a first aid kit on a ride for the first time in ages last
> weekend - it was a race, I had to. So if a race organiser insists on
> 'first aid kits' being carried, as in most things to do with racing
> people will try and carry as little as possible.This is where I came
> into the thread really, what constitutes the minimum content for a
> first aid kit?

A safety pin.

Steve.

[Shaun Rimmer]

"spademan o---[) *" > wrote in message
...
>
> "John Atkinson" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Sorni" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > "John Atkinson" > wrote in message
> > > om...
> > > > (JD) referred to me as:
> > > > > <snip>
> > > > > as clueless as spankie?
> > > >
> > > > yawn...
> > >
> > > > you really do have a 'singletrack' mind :-)
> > >
> > > Dishonest quoting. You went first ("hairy bum"); JD then asked how it
> feels
> > > to be as clueless as spankie (different from CALLING you as clueless
as
> > > spankie).
> > >
> > > Bill "pass the mashed potatoes" S.
> >
> > I do hope we are not going to get 'serious' about this. I think the
> > name calling began a little earlier but the 'singletrack' mind comment
> > was an attempt to lighten it up, even flagged by a smiley for the hard
> > of thinking.
> >
> > There is a clear implication in JD's post, I took it lightly rather
> > than personally, who knows (bar the man himself) how it was intended.
> > Its all gone a long way from the value and content of first aid kits
> > hasn't it?
> >
> > I carried a first aid kit on a ride for the first time in ages last
> > weekend - it was a race, I had to. So if a race organiser insists on
> > 'first aid kits' being carried, as in most things to do with racing
> > people will try and carry as little as possible.This is where I came
> > into the thread really, what constitutes the minimum content for a
> > first aid kit?
>
> A safety pin.
>
> Steve.

1/2 ltr 99% ethanol.


Shaun aRe

[Mojo Deluxe]

"Shaun Rimmer" > wrote in message
...
>
> "spademan o---[) *" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "John Atkinson" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > "Sorni" > wrote in message
> > >...
> > > > "John Atkinson" > wrote in message
> > > > om...
> > > > > (JD) referred to me as:
> > > > > > <snip>
> > > > > > as clueless as spankie?
> > > > >
> > > > > yawn...
> > > >
> > > > > you really do have a 'singletrack' mind :-)
> > > >
> > > > Dishonest quoting. You went first ("hairy bum"); JD then asked how
it
> > feels
> > > > to be as clueless as spankie (different from CALLING you as clueless
> as
> > > > spankie).
> > > >
> > > > Bill "pass the mashed potatoes" S.
> > >
> > > I do hope we are not going to get 'serious' about this. I think the
> > > name calling began a little earlier but the 'singletrack' mind comment
> > > was an attempt to lighten it up, even flagged by a smiley for the hard
> > > of thinking.
> > >
> > > There is a clear implication in JD's post, I took it lightly rather
> > > than personally, who knows (bar the man himself) how it was intended.
> > > Its all gone a long way from the value and content of first aid kits
> > > hasn't it?
> > >
> > > I carried a first aid kit on a ride for the first time in ages last
> > > weekend - it was a race, I had to. So if a race organiser insists on
> > > 'first aid kits' being carried, as in most things to do with racing
> > > people will try and carry as little as possible.This is where I came
> > > into the thread really, what constitutes the minimum content for a
> > > first aid kit?
> >
> > A safety pin.
> >
> > Steve.
>
> 1/2 ltr 99% ethanol.
>
I've never carried a first aid kit.

[Dave W]

(John Atkinson) had this to say
om

> "Sorni" > wrote in message
> >...
>> "John Atkinson" > wrote in message
>> om...
>> > (JD) referred to me as:
>> > > <snip>
>> > > as clueless as spankie?
>> >
>> > yawn...
>>
>> > you really do have a 'singletrack' mind :-)
>>
>> Dishonest quoting. You went first ("hairy bum"); JD then asked how
>> it feels to be as clueless as spankie (different from CALLING you as
>> clueless as spankie).

splitting hairs again ain't ya Bill? (not very much difference is there?)

>>
>> Bill "pass the mashed potatoes" S.
>
> I do hope we are not going to get 'serious' about this. I think the
> name calling began a little earlier but the 'singletrack' mind comment
> was an attempt to lighten it up, even flagged by a smiley for the hard
> of thinking.

That's what I got out of it.

>
> There is a clear implication in JD's post, I took it lightly rather
> than personally, who knows (bar the man himself) how it was intended.

Don't sugar coat it...you know how he meant it.

> Its all gone a long way from the value and content of first aid kits
> hasn't it?

It usually does when JD is involved. You're not surprized are you?

>
> I carried a first aid kit on a ride for the first time in ages last
> weekend - it was a race, I had to. So if a race organiser insists on
> 'first aid kits' being carried, as in most things to do with racing
> people will try and carry as little as possible.This is where I came
> into the thread really, what constitutes the minimum content for a
> first aid kit?

Thanks for trying to keep the thread on track, in spite of the Yeti's
comments.

>