25 miles and a couple of questions

[MTB Lover]

OK, so I am really diggin' the new Ellsworth Isis. I have a lizard skin
on the swingarm, but dropping off of anything bigger than a curb makes a
lot of chain noise. Is this normal? I don't think the chain is hitting
the swingarm, just slapping around a lot and making the usual
accompaning noises that you would expect. maybe it is a bit long, any
tips on what the proper length should be? I would never go into big/big
gear.

Hi Bob, er uhhh, pedal bob. This is a new one to me, it is noticable, I
have the rear shock with compression and rebound as tight as they get,
but I notice about a quarter inch of rythmic compression on the rear
shock while pedaling. Is this normal, is it impossible to pedal
completly smooth?

Ungodly acceleration. I switched from a Santa Cruz Chameleon hardtail to
the Isis, and switched from platform to SPD's at the same time, does
this bike accelerate like a rocket ship, or is this a result from being
clipped to the pedals? If it is the pedals, how come nobody mentioned
this to me before?

Foot Cramps, ahhh, see the above paragraph. since I cannot change my
foot position throughout the ride, they have a tendancy to get tired of
being in the same position all the time, is this normal for new clipless
users? should I expect this to go away soon?
--
Jerry

remove the nospam and the period to email me.

[John Morgan]

> Foot Cramps, ahhh, see the above paragraph. since I cannot change my
> foot position throughout the ride, they have a tendancy to get tired of
> being in the same position all the time, is this normal for new clipless
> users? should I expect this to go away soon?


Foot cramps can be caused by several problems:
If your shoes do not have stiff soles, long rides can cause foot fatigue
with all that pressure on just one small part of your foot. Solution: Get a
pair of shoes with stiffer soles

Your shoes may not have an arch support.
Solution: Get some Superfeet insoles, or a shoe with built in arch support.

Your cleats may not be in the proper position.
Solution: Try adjusting the cleats fore/aft to see if there is any
improvement.

If none of these sound like the problem, you could be right... you might
just not be conditioned to riding clipless. I never had any trouble with
foot fatigue when I switched, however. HTH.

-John Morgan

[Mike Sparling]

MTB Lover asks:
<snip>
> Ungodly acceleration. I switched from a Santa Cruz Chameleon hardtail to
> the Isis, and switched from platform to SPD's at the same time, does
> this bike accelerate like a rocket ship, or is this a result from being
> clipped to the pedals? If it is the pedals, how come nobody mentioned
> this to me before?
>

Oh, yes, clipless should improve power transfer, most especially for newer
riders, or ones that do not concentrate on the pedal stroke.
In my experience, it is much easier to pedal circles using clipless than
flats, and you can definitely "pull" on the upstroke with each leg, which is
close to impossible with flats. Yeah, I know, some really talented folks can
do it, using grippy flats, and tilting the pedal, pressing back against it,
but clipless makes this portion of the stroke so much easier!

Not sure why you haven't heard this before, as it was one of my chief
reasons for switching to clipless. I don't pedal great circles, but I am
better after having ridden clipless for so long.

Mike

[MTB Lover]

John Morgan wrote:
>>Foot Cramps, ahhh, see the above paragraph. since I cannot change my
>>foot position throughout the ride, they have a tendancy to get tired of
>>being in the same position all the time, is this normal for new clipless
>>users? should I expect this to go away soon?
>
>
>
> Foot cramps can be caused by several problems:
> If your shoes do not have stiff soles, long rides can cause foot fatigue
> with all that pressure on just one small part of your foot. Solution: Get a
> pair of shoes with stiffer soles
>
> Your shoes may not have an arch support.
> Solution: Get some Superfeet insoles, or a shoe with built in arch support.
>
> Your cleats may not be in the proper position.
> Solution: Try adjusting the cleats fore/aft to see if there is any
> improvement.
>
> If none of these sound like the problem, you could be right... you might
> just not be conditioned to riding clipless. I never had any trouble with
> foot fatigue when I switched, however. HTH.
>
> -John Morgan
>
>
The shoes are made by Answer, they seem really stiff, but you are
probably right about the arch support, they feel a bit flat. I moved the
cleats all the way back, and this seems to have made a big improvement.
I think I used to ride very close to the middle of my foot on my flats,
with vans shoes (lots o flex). my feet have probably picked up some bad
habits, those *******s are gonna have to learn to fly right.

--
Jerry

remove the nospam and the period to email me.

[MTB Lover]

Mike Sparling wrote:

> MTB Lover asks:
> <snip>
>
>>Ungodly acceleration. I switched from a Santa Cruz Chameleon hardtail to
>> the Isis, and switched from platform to SPD's at the same time, does
>>this bike accelerate like a rocket ship, or is this a result from being
>>clipped to the pedals? If it is the pedals, how come nobody mentioned
>>this to me before?
>>
>
>
> Oh, yes, clipless should improve power transfer, most especially for newer
> riders, or ones that do not concentrate on the pedal stroke.
> In my experience, it is much easier to pedal circles using clipless than
> flats, and you can definitely "pull" on the upstroke with each leg, which is
> close to impossible with flats. Yeah, I know, some really talented folks can
> do it, using grippy flats, and tilting the pedal, pressing back against it,
> but clipless makes this portion of the stroke so much easier!
>
> Not sure why you haven't heard this before, as it was one of my chief
> reasons for switching to clipless. I don't pedal great circles, but I am
> better after having ridden clipless for so long.
>
> Mike
>
>
clipless pedals is one of the best thinkgs that ever happened.

--
Jerry

remove the nospam and the period to email me.

[Bill Wheeler]

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:09:11 GMT, MTB Lover >
wrote:

>OK, so I am really diggin' the new Ellsworth Isis. I have a lizard skin
>on the swingarm, but dropping off of anything bigger than a curb makes a
> lot of chain noise. Is this normal? I don't think the chain is hitting
>the swingarm, just slapping around a lot and making the usual
>accompaning noises that you would expect. maybe it is a bit long, any
>tips on what the proper length should be? I would never go into big/big
>gear.

Patient: Doctor it hurts when I do that.
Doctor: Stop doing that.

>
>Hi Bob, er uhhh, pedal bob. This is a new one to me, it is noticable, I
>have the rear shock with compression and rebound as tight as they get,
>but I notice about a quarter inch of rythmic compression on the rear
>shock while pedaling. Is this normal, is it impossible to pedal
>completly smooth?

Of course it's normal.....for your circumstances. Any time you have a
full sus., you'll get pedal bob. If anyone tells you different
they're full of SH!Ti. Unless of course you have some hyped up "Full
Lock Out" thingy.


>
>Ungodly acceleration. I switched from a Santa Cruz Chameleon hardtail to
> the Isis, and switched from platform to SPD's at the same time, does
>this bike accelerate like a rocket ship, or is this a result from being
>clipped to the pedals? If it is the pedals, how come nobody mentioned
>this to me before?

Most likely the pedals, clipless peds lead to more efficient power
transfer. Nobody told you this because you should have figured it out
on your own.


>
>Foot Cramps, ahhh, see the above paragraph. since I cannot change my
>foot position throughout the ride, they have a tendancy to get tired of
>being in the same position all the time, is this normal for new clipless
>users? should I expect this to go away soon?

Try some clipless peds with more float or get over it.

Peace,
Bill



....one speed to rule them all, one speed to find them,
one speed to bring them all and on the trails pass them
In the Land of Avalon where the geared pigs lie...

[Westie]

"MTB Lover" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> >
> clipless pedals is one of the best thinkgs that ever happened.

Are you sure?
I've been a dedicated convert to clipless but just recently put flats on
bike #2. Not just cheap flats either but some nice wide Wellgo ones with
'real' pins. I'm beginning to wonder why I use clipless. I can make a
better power stroke with clipless but everything else is better about flats.
They're grippy, they 'release' easily and quickly at any angle, I can
bunnyhop and move around on them much better. Clipless have their place.
Flats have their place too.
--
Westie
(Replace 'invalid' with 'yahoo' when replying.)

[Westie]

"Bill Wheeler" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> >Hi Bob, er uhhh, pedal bob. This is a new one to me, it is noticable, I
> >have the rear shock with compression and rebound as tight as they get,
> >but I notice about a quarter inch of rythmic compression on the rear
> >shock while pedaling. Is this normal, is it impossible to pedal
> >completly smooth?
>
> Of course it's normal.....for your circumstances. Any time you have a
> full sus., you'll get pedal bob. If anyone tells you different
> they're full of SH!Ti. Unless of course you have some hyped up "Full
> Lock Out" thingy.

And even then it seems that most of the lockout thingies move a bit these
days to avoid catastrophic high pressure explosive destruction of the
internal bits when you hit a really big bump. Or so I'm told.
--
Westie
(Replace 'invalid' with 'yahoo' when replying.)

[Michael Dart]

"MTB Lover" > wrote in message
m...
> OK, so I am really diggin' the new Ellsworth Isis. I have a lizard skin
> on the swingarm, but dropping off of anything bigger than a curb makes a
> lot of chain noise. Is this normal? I don't think the chain is hitting
> the swingarm, just slapping around a lot and making the usual
> accompaning noises that you would expect. maybe it is a bit long, any
> tips on what the proper length should be? I would never go into big/big
> gear.
>
> Hi Bob, er uhhh, pedal bob. This is a new one to me, it is noticable, I
> have the rear shock with compression and rebound as tight as they get,
> but I notice about a quarter inch of rythmic compression on the rear
> shock while pedaling. Is this normal, is it impossible to pedal
> completly smooth?
>

What shock does your bike have on it? It sound's like it is undersprung if
you have to dial in the compression and rebound all the way. You will
destroy the shock if you continue to ride it like that. If it's an air
shock you need more air pressure and if it's a coil you need a heavier
spring. Consider upgrading the shock to a Progressive 5th element. You can
completely remove pedal bob with it and still have an active suspension
under you.

And no Bill it's not bull****. If I can pedal a 40lb Bullit around like a
XC bike.

Mike

[FlyingCoyote]

"MTB Lover" > wrote in message
m...
: Foot Cramps, ahhh, see the above paragraph. since I cannot change my
: foot position throughout the ride, they have a tendancy to get tired of
: being in the same position all the time, is this normal for new clipless
: users? should I expect this to go away soon?
: --
: Jerry
:
: remove the nospam and the period to email me.
:

When I first started riding I got a lot of foot cramps. After changing the
cleat positioning around a few times to find just the right spot, and adding
better insoles to the shoes the problem went away and has never come back.

Where are the cramps, exactly. I was getting them in the arch of my foot.

It could also take some conditioning..?

--

FlyingCoyote
http://boarsgut.com

--

[Jonesy]

MTB Lover > wrote in message >...
> OK, so I am really diggin' the new Ellsworth Isis. I have a lizard skin
> on the swingarm, but dropping off of anything bigger than a curb makes a
> lot of chain noise. Is this normal? I don't think the chain is hitting
> the swingarm, just slapping around a lot and making the usual
> accompaning noises that you would expect. maybe it is a bit long, any
> tips on what the proper length should be? I would never go into big/big
> gear.

I think that chain length is covered by Sheldon Brown. You might want
to google "sheldon brown chain length"

> Hi Bob, er uhhh, pedal bob. This is a new one to me, it is noticable, I
> have the rear shock with compression and rebound as tight as they get,
> but I notice about a quarter inch of rythmic compression on the rear
> shock while pedaling. Is this normal, is it impossible to pedal
> completly smooth?

As an ardent "hammerer", I have said "Hi" to Bob as well. It's the
price of admission to the single-pivot, FS club. BUT...

Since you ride clipless, you should be able to pedal in circles, and
minimize Bob's intrusion into your world.

But there is something else you can do, before that shock blows up on
you from having set the way you do:

Romic. Nice coil-spring anti-bob stable platfdorm shock. You could
also look at Manitou and their SPV line, or Progressive's 5th Element
line. All cost money over and above what you have spent. You could
unload your current shock on eBay, and take some of the sting out.

This is, of course, if you just can't live with Bob as a riding
companion. I never found him to be such a bother, but I'm weird.
--
Jonesy

[[email protected]]

I glued a thick form under swingarm on my Proflex / K2
2000.

Fire up MTB 03

[Per Elmsäter]

MTB Lover wrote:
>
> Hi Bob, er uhhh, pedal bob. This is a new one to me, it is noticable,
> I have the rear shock with compression and rebound as tight as they
> get, but I notice about a quarter inch of rythmic compression on the
> rear shock while pedaling. Is this normal, is it impossible to pedal
> completly smooth?
>

It can also be due to you not pedaling circles yet. I think that'll go away
as you get used to your system.
You'll probably want to experiment a bit with compression and rebound also
until you know what you want.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

[MTB Lover]

Michael Dart wrote:
> "MTB Lover" > wrote in message
> m...
>
>>OK, so I am really diggin' the new Ellsworth Isis. I have a lizard skin
>>on the swingarm, but dropping off of anything bigger than a curb makes a
>> lot of chain noise. Is this normal? I don't think the chain is hitting
>>the swingarm, just slapping around a lot and making the usual
>>accompaning noises that you would expect. maybe it is a bit long, any
>>tips on what the proper length should be? I would never go into big/big
>>gear.
>>
>>Hi Bob, er uhhh, pedal bob. This is a new one to me, it is noticable, I
>>have the rear shock with compression and rebound as tight as they get,
>>but I notice about a quarter inch of rythmic compression on the rear
>>shock while pedaling. Is this normal, is it impossible to pedal
>>completly smooth?
>>
>
>
> What shock does your bike have on it? It sound's like it is undersprung if
> you have to dial in the compression and rebound all the way. You will
> destroy the shock if you continue to ride it like that. If it's an air
> shock you need more air pressure and if it's a coil you need a heavier
> spring. Consider upgrading the shock to a Progressive 5th element. You can
> completely remove pedal bob with it and still have an active suspension
> under you.
>
> And no Bill it's not bull****. If I can pedal a 40lb Bullit around like a
> XC bike.
>
> Mike
>
>
The shock is a Cane Creek AD 12, I loosened compression and rebound by
about 1.5 complete turns, and it seems to have no effect on the pedal
bob, but the ride is a touch plusher, will try this for awhile, them
loosen some more and see what happens.

--
Jerry

remove the nospam and the period to email me.

[MTB Lover]

FlyingCoyote wrote:

> "MTB Lover" > wrote in message
> m...
> : Foot Cramps, ahhh, see the above paragraph. since I cannot change my
> : foot position throughout the ride, they have a tendancy to get tired of
> : being in the same position all the time, is this normal for new clipless
> : users? should I expect this to go away soon?
> : --
> : Jerry
> :
> : remove the nospam and the period to email me.
> :
>
> When I first started riding I got a lot of foot cramps. After changing the
> cleat positioning around a few times to find just the right spot, and adding
> better insoles to the shoes the problem went away and has never come back.
>
> Where are the cramps, exactly. I was getting them in the arch of my foot.
>
> It could also take some conditioning..?
>
exactly the same, and only on the right foot, I noticed the cleats are
in a slightly different position on each shoe, so I will try to make the
right one emulate the position of the left one.

--
Jerry

remove the nospam and the period to email me.

[MTB Lover]

Jonesy wrote:

> MTB Lover > wrote in message >...
>
>>OK, so I am really diggin' the new Ellsworth Isis. I have a lizard skin
>>on the swingarm, but dropping off of anything bigger than a curb makes a
>> lot of chain noise. Is this normal? I don't think the chain is hitting
>>the swingarm, just slapping around a lot and making the usual
>>accompaning noises that you would expect. maybe it is a bit long, any
>>tips on what the proper length should be? I would never go into big/big
>>gear.
>
>
> I think that chain length is covered by Sheldon Brown. You might want
> to google "sheldon brown chain length"
>
>
>>Hi Bob, er uhhh, pedal bob. This is a new one to me, it is noticable, I
>>have the rear shock with compression and rebound as tight as they get,
>>but I notice about a quarter inch of rythmic compression on the rear
>>shock while pedaling. Is this normal, is it impossible to pedal
>>completly smooth?
>
>
> As an ardent "hammerer", I have said "Hi" to Bob as well. It's the
> price of admission to the single-pivot, FS club. BUT...
>
> Since you ride clipless, you should be able to pedal in circles, and
> minimize Bob's intrusion into your world.
>
> But there is something else you can do, before that shock blows up on
> you from having set the way you do:
>
> Romic. Nice coil-spring anti-bob stable platfdorm shock. You could
> also look at Manitou and their SPV line, or Progressive's 5th Element
> line. All cost money over and above what you have spent. You could
> unload your current shock on eBay, and take some of the sting out.
>
> This is, of course, if you just can't live with Bob as a riding
> companion. I never found him to be such a bother, but I'm weird.
> --
> Jonesy
Bob is ok, he just takes some getting used to :)

--
Jerry

remove the nospam and the period to email me.

[MTB Lover]

wrote:

> I glued a thick form under swingarm on my Proflex / K2
> 2000.
>
> Fire up MTB 03
>
yeah, maybe the lizard skin is too thin, I might try putting some kind
of material under the skin on the bottom and see if that helps.

--
Jerry

remove the nospam and the period to email me.

[Michael Dart]

"MTB Lover" > wrote in message
...
> Michael Dart wrote:
> > "MTB Lover" > wrote in message
> > m...
> >
> >>OK, so I am really diggin' the new Ellsworth Isis. I have a lizard skin
> >>on the swingarm, but dropping off of anything bigger than a curb makes a
> >> lot of chain noise. Is this normal? I don't think the chain is hitting
> >>the swingarm, just slapping around a lot and making the usual
> >>accompaning noises that you would expect. maybe it is a bit long, any
> >>tips on what the proper length should be? I would never go into big/big
> >>gear.
> >>
> >>Hi Bob, er uhhh, pedal bob. This is a new one to me, it is noticable, I
> >>have the rear shock with compression and rebound as tight as they get,
> >>but I notice about a quarter inch of rythmic compression on the rear
> >>shock while pedaling. Is this normal, is it impossible to pedal
> >>completly smooth?
> >>
> >
> >
> > What shock does your bike have on it? It sound's like it is undersprung
if
> > you have to dial in the compression and rebound all the way. You will
> > destroy the shock if you continue to ride it like that. If it's an air
> > shock you need more air pressure and if it's a coil you need a heavier
> > spring. Consider upgrading the shock to a Progressive 5th element. You
can
> > completely remove pedal bob with it and still have an active suspension
> > under you.
> >
> > And no Bill it's not bull****. If I can pedal a 40lb Bullit around like
a
> > XC bike.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> The shock is a Cane Creek AD 12, I loosened compression and rebound by
> about 1.5 complete turns, and it seems to have no effect on the pedal
> bob, but the ride is a touch plusher, will try this for awhile, them
> loosen some more and see what happens.
>
> --

You will bob more by doing that but you won't blow out your compression and
rebound circuits. Try a bit more air pressure in the main chamber to
stiffen up the spring. You want to adjust the rebound (the speed at which
the suspension returns to normal position) so that it isn't so fast as to
buck you off and isn't so slow the shock packs up after repeated hits. You
adjust compression dampening (the amount of force it takes to get the shock
moving) to get the ride feel you are after. Stiffer less bob or plusher
more active.

If pedal bob is a serious problem for you then you may want to upgrade your
shock to a Progressive 5th element Air shock. You can dial in the amount of
force it takes to make the shock react. Meaning it will resist pedaling
forces but still react to bigger hits from below. It's pretty cool, the
ride feels locked out until you hit a bump the shock just sucks it up and
settle back into it's deadband.

Mike

[Per Elmsäter]

MTB Lover wrote:
> FlyingCoyote wrote:
>
>> "MTB Lover" > wrote in message
>> m...
>>> Foot Cramps, ahhh, see the above paragraph. since I cannot change my
>>> foot position throughout the ride, they have a tendancy to get
>>> tired of being in the same position all the time, is this normal
>>> for new clipless users? should I expect this to go away soon?
>>> --
>>> Jerry
>>>
>>> remove the nospam and the period to email me.
>>>
>>
>> When I first started riding I got a lot of foot cramps. After
>> changing the cleat positioning around a few times to find just the
>> right spot, and adding better insoles to the shoes the problem went
>> away and has never come back.
>>
>> Where are the cramps, exactly. I was getting them in the arch of my
>> foot.
>>
>> It could also take some conditioning..?
>>
> exactly the same, and only on the right foot, I noticed the cleats are
> in a slightly different position on each shoe, so I will try to make
> the right one emulate the position of the left one.

Do you have any float in your cleats? That makes a big difference to me
anyway.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

[Sorni]

"MTB Lover" > wrote in message
m...
> OK, so I am really diggin' the new Ellsworth Isis. I have a lizard skin
> on the swingarm, but dropping off of anything bigger than a curb makes a
> lot of chain noise. Is this normal? I don't think the chain is hitting
> the swingarm, just slapping around a lot and making the usual
> accompaning noises that you would expect. maybe it is a bit long, any
> tips on what the proper length should be? I would never go into big/big
> gear.

Shift it into big-big just to see. If the rear derailleur isn't *almost*
stretched out straight, you could safely take out a link (or maybe even
two).

There'a also a screw (B-tension?) that can move the der. cage a bit farther
from the swing-arm; that can reduce noise quite a lot.

> Foot Cramps, ahhh, see the above paragraph. since I cannot change my
> foot position throughout the ride, they have a tendancy to get tired of
> being in the same position all the time, is this normal for new clipless
> users? should I expect this to go away soon?

Since no one else mentioned it (that I recall at least), you might just have
your shoe(s) laced/strapped too tight.

Bill "and the AD-12 is a fine shock; keep fiddling" S.

[(Pete Cresswell)]

RE/
>but I notice about a quarter inch of rythmic compression on the rear
>shock while pedaling. Is this normal, is it impossible to pedal
>completly smooth?

That's about what I think of as normal in my Isis. OTOH, on one of the few
rides I've every done with somebody else on an FS, the other guy remarked at how
amazingly little bob my bike had.

Recently I switched from a Fox air to a Romic. About the same amount of bob
most of the time, but now, when taking long slow strokes out of the saddle on a
hill, the Romic doesn't move at all. The Romic feels better overall though -
although I can't articulate why.
--
PeteCresswell