TdF (no spoilers)

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

It's like this: in the past I could watch the Tour on TV and enjoy it,
because I didn't care who won. Now I do. I really want Lance to pick
up that fifth Tour - I have no idea why, logically I should be
supporting Vino who is on fantastic form or David "British" Millar, or
just not caring because there are some truly amazing riders in there
this year, Mayo, Hamilton, Vinrenque and Ullrich to name but a few.

But for some reason I want Lance to win - and in my experience whenever
I want someone to win, they don't :-(

So now I can't bear to watch the Tour live, even thoughI'm at Mums and
they have cable and ITV2 and ****, I'll just have to go back to reading
the results and then watching Liggett's Hour on tape.

A hopeless case.

Guy

[Not me, someone else]

Just zis Guy, you know? deftly scribbled:

> It's like this: in the past I could watch the Tour on TV and enjoy it,
> because I didn't care who won. Now I do. I really want Lance to pick
> up that fifth Tour - I have no idea why, logically I should be
> supporting Vino who is on fantastic form or David "British" Millar, or
> just not caring because there are some truly amazing riders in there
> this year, Mayo, Hamilton, Vinrenque and Ullrich to name but a few.
>
> But for some reason I want Lance to win - and in my experience
> whenever I want someone to win, they don't :-(
>
> So now I can't bear to watch the Tour live, even thoughI'm at Mums and
> they have cable and ITV2 and ****, I'll just have to go back to
> reading the results and then watching Liggett's Hour on tape.
>
> A hopeless case.
>
> Guy

Heheheh, while Millar's done some good riding, the man for me, though it's
doubtful he'll win, is Hamilton .. that takes guts and real physical and
mental strength ..


--
Digweed

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

Garry Broad > wrote:

> It seems to me that all the other top riders are more
> concerned with only *stopping* him than actually 'going for it'

The fact is that in order to win the Tour you have to beat the Texan.
The fact that he is a strong favourite to win, and an awesome force on a
bike, makes it much easier to focus on "beat Lance" than a nebulous "win
the Tour" I suppose - the tactics this year have not favoured him, for
sure, but he does seem to be keeping his cool. Whether he's keeping
something in reserve for the Pyrenees we'll just have to wait and see.
He hasn't produced any of his dazzling sprints up slopes like the side
of a house this year so far.

Guy

[David Off]

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> logically I should be
> supporting Vino who is on fantastic form or David "British" Millar

"Note to all reporters: after Millar got dropped on the first hill today
he is now officially 'Scottish' until he redeems himself with a win"

[Bill]

Just zis Guy, you know? > wrote in message
news:1fyepyu.1oswk6l14xj4ooN%spamdump@chapmancentr al.com...
> It's like this: in the past I could watch the Tour on TV and enjoy it,
> because I didn't care who won. Now I do. I really want Lance to pick
> up that fifth Tour - I have no idea why, logically I should be
> supporting Vino who is on fantastic form or David "British" Millar, or
> just not caring because there are some truly amazing riders in there
> this year, Mayo, Hamilton, Vinrenque and Ullrich to name but a few.
>
> But for some reason I want Lance to win - and in my experience whenever
> I want someone to win, they don't :-(

His post race interview a few stages ago surprised me.
He was berating the riders who had been attacking him on the stage.

Perhaps I'm missing something somewhere, but I thought the idea of a race
was to win.

I would like to see Ullrich win. He is making a race of it, not sitting
safely in the pack letting others do all the work.

Bill

[M Series]

I used to like Lance Armstrong, I met him on a couple of occasions at stage
starts before he had to have his enforced lay off, my wife got his autograph
in Leeds. I am enjoying this tour because he as some competition and he is
not several minutes ahead.

I have been following the tour since 1987, been at the roadside for 11 of
them including 1989, and in that time I have lived through the Indurain and
Armstrong years, their style of tour has really made for a dull race IMHO,
this year is better as others believe that Lance is beatable.

I hope it comes to a showdown with Ullrich on Saturday in the TT.

Chapeau to Tyler Hamilton.

"Just zis Guy, you know?" > wrote in message
news:1fyepyu.1oswk6l14xj4ooN%spamdump@chapmancentr al.com...
> It's like this: in the past I could watch the Tour on TV and enjoy it,
> because I didn't care who won. Now I do. I really want Lance to pick
> up that fifth Tour - I have no idea why, logically I should be
> supporting Vino who is on fantastic form or David "British" Millar, or
> just not caring because there are some truly amazing riders in there
> this year, Mayo, Hamilton, Vinrenque and Ullrich to name but a few.
>
> But for some reason I want Lance to win - and in my experience whenever
> I want someone to win, they don't :-(
>
> So now I can't bear to watch the Tour live, even thoughI'm at Mums and
> they have cable and ITV2 and ****, I'll just have to go back to reading
> the results and then watching Liggett's Hour on tape.
>
> A hopeless case.
>
> Guy

[Bill]

M Series > wrote in message
...
>
> I have been following the tour since 1987,


It only started a fortnight ago..............;-)

[Jim Price]

elyob wrote:

> I reckon tomorrow and Wednesday are the big days, after that it's all flat.

If there aren't any big gains/losses in the next two days, the time
trial on Saturday becomes the big day.

> It's the first one I have really watched thoroughly absorbed. I want Lance
> to win, but also Ullrich and Vido would also be worthy winners. Five times
> is special though.

Its the best one for me so far since Lemond beat Fignon by 8 seconds on
the last day - a time trial to the finish line in Paris. For me,
Armstong's potential achievment of a fifth win somehow needs to be
supplemented by maybe winning one of the other competitions as well for
me to place him high up within the increasing band of cyclists who have
managed 5. Perhaps if he did something like break the hour record, I
might also be more impressed, but he does seem to concentrate on the
single goal of winning the TdF. Now he's getting some real competition
for that, I agree its exciting stuff.

My prediction is Vino in yellow coming out of the mountains (by
seconds), and Ulrich to win it on the time trial. If Lance wins it, it
will be hard fought and very well deserved, though.

--
Jim Price

http://www.jimprice.dsl.pipex.com

Conscientious objection is hard work in an economic war.

[Arthur Clune]

Jim Price > wrote:

: the last day - a time trial to the finish line in Paris. For me,
: Armstong's potential achievment of a fifth win somehow needs to be
: supplemented by maybe winning one of the other competitions as well for

People keep saying this, but I don't understand it at all. Sure, he
targets the tour, but look at his results for the last few years
and then tell me he doesn't win anything else.

From http://www.lancearmstrong.com/lance/online2.nsf/html/career

2002
Milan San Remo - 44th
Criterium International - 2nd
Paris-Camembert - 75th
Tour Flanders - 59th
Amstel Gold - 4th
Midi Libre - 1st
Dauphine - 1st
Tour De France - 1st

That's two wins of top class stage races and damm close in a world
cup classic.

2001

Amstel Gold -2nd
Tour of Switerland - 1st

Ahrthur

[Dave Larrington]

Arthur Clune wrote:

[stuff]

Not shabby, admittedly, but he - like Indurain - admit to concentrating on
the Tour almost to the exclusion of everythiong else. Contrast with Mr. E.
Merckx...

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
================================================== =========
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
================================================== =========

[Andy Koppe]

>> "Note to all reporters: after Millar got dropped on the first hill today
>> he is now officially 'Scottish' until he redeems himself with a win"
>
> Oh dear, that old chestnut.
> A true testament to how oppressed the scottish are (!)
>
> I note that there is a young cyclist riding for scotland, who has an
> english father, and an educated guess suggests that he's lived in england
> all his life.

Bit more complicated than that actually: born in Malta and brought up in
Hong Kong, Scotland and London.

Andy

[Jim Price]

Arthur Clune wrote:

> Jim Price > wrote:
>
> : the last day - a time trial to the finish line in Paris. For me,
> : Armstong's potential achievment of a fifth win somehow needs to be
> : supplemented by maybe winning one of the other competitions as well for

Um, you snipped my sentence here, where I was comparing him specifically
to other 5 time winners. :(

> People keep saying this, but I don't understand it at all. Sure, he
> targets the tour, but look at his results for the last few years
> and then tell me he doesn't win anything else.
<snip stats>

Vuelta? Giro? Hour record?

As Dave L says, see Mr. E. Merckx for the targets. 10 jerseys, 5 yellow.
500 races in 10 years. I'm not saying Lance doesn't win anything else,
just a lot less than some of the other 5 time winners of the TdF.

If I were being cynical about it (which I'm not), I would suggest he is
optimising his marketing presence for his home country, where the public
may think there is only one race a year, and in finishes in Paris
("ain't that in Texas, boy?"). :)

--
Jim Price

http://www.jimprice.dsl.pipex.com

Conscientious objection is hard work in an economic war.

[Arthur Clune]

Jim Price > wrote:

: As Dave L says, see Mr. E. Merckx for the targets. 10 jerseys, 5 yellow.
: 500 races in 10 years. I'm not saying Lance doesn't win anything else,
: just a lot less than some of the other 5 time winners of the TdF.

You can't do that any more though. Nor could Eddy more to the point.

The depth of talent is much higher.

If Eddy was riding now, he'd do what Armstrong is doing. It's been
this way for a long time - look at Sean Kelly. He rode hard all year,
won a lot of races but never won the tour. Could he have one it if he
hadn't started racing had in Febuary? I think so.

Arthur

[Jim Price]

Arthur Clune wrote:

> Jim Price > wrote (and had the questions snipped):

Lance v. Eddy stats:
Vuelta? Giro? Hour record?

A truly great cyclist should have a great record compared to his
contemporaries in these as well as the TdF. I suppose I'm saying Lance's
record is imbalanced for a great cyclist, and deliberately so.

> : As Dave L says, see Mr. E. Merckx for the targets. 10 jerseys, 5 yellow.
> : 500 races in 10 years. I'm not saying Lance doesn't win anything else,
> : just a lot less than some of the other 5 time winners of the TdF.
>
> You can't do that any more though. Nor could Eddy more to the point.

Well, not at his age now. But if you allowed him the improved training
methods etc. available to Lance today, I think he might at least have
had a go.

> The depth of talent is much higher.

I tend to agree, but also think the top riders are not as ambitious as
they used to be. The depth of talent in most sports has increased, but
there are still some which have had recent and massive domination by an
individual despite this. I'm not convinced this is an argument that it
can't be done. It does seem to convince the top riders at the moment, IMHO.

> If Eddy was riding now, he'd do what Armstrong is doing.

I suppose we'd have to ask him for the correct answer to that. IMHO he
would still have won more than Armstrong, just because he would have
tried to.

> It's been
> this way for a long time - look at Sean Kelly. He rode hard all year,
> won a lot of races but never won the tour. Could he have one it if he
> hadn't started racing had in Febuary? I think so.

I think so too. However, I suppose a part of my point here is that I
would have more respect for a rider who beat everyone in a race where
they had all been doing the same things (bar injury) for the previous
part of the year. There are probably other riders in todays tour who
could do what you suggest Kelly could have done, but won't have the
opportunity. I think it would be more sporting of Lance to try and win
having done what everyone else has done. In other sports, you can end up
clashing with the governing body big time (see Bjorn Borg retirement
details for example) by not participating in enough events during the year.

So, to summarise, I prefer my sport both as keen and fair as possible.
This is not intended to mean that I think cycling is either unfair or
rigged. Nor is it a "Lance is crap" comment. He is a great cyclist. I
just reserve the right to criticise anyone for not being the absolute
best until they are as well rounded a rider as Merckx. This is likely to
be subjective and would not necessarily require numerical supremacy, but
either way, its a good source of material for discussion.

Just in case I get the wrong idea, are you suggesting Armstong is in
some way greater than Merckx?

--
Jim Price

http://www.jimprice.dsl.pipex.com

Conscientious objection is hard work in an economic war.

[Arthur Clune]

Jim Price > wrote:

: I think so too. However, I suppose a part of my point here is that I
: would have more respect for a rider who beat everyone in a race where
: they had all been doing the same things (bar injury) for the previous
: part of the year.

My point is that this isn't possible.

Would you have the same respect for
someone who came a very close 2nd or 3rd (a la kelly) in the Tour rather
than winning it?

: Just in case I get the wrong idea, are you suggesting Armstong is in
: some way greater than Merckx?

No. Merckx was the greatest. But I think Armstrong is closer than you
give him credit for.

Arthur

[Steve McGinty]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 13:21:07 +0100, Jim Price >
wrote:

>Arthur Clune wrote:
>
>> Jim Price > wrote:
>>
>> : I think so too. However, I suppose a part of my point here is that I
>> : would have more respect for a rider who beat everyone in a race where
>> : they had all been doing the same things (bar injury) for the previous
>> : part of the year.
>>
>> My point is that this isn't possible.
>
>My point is that if they all did the same thing, someone would still
>win, and I would have more respect for that win. They may even win a
>lot. In that scenario, it may still be possible, if perhaps less likely,
>today. I think we may have to agree to differ on that one.
>
>> No. Merckx was the greatest. But I think Armstrong is closer than you
>> give him credit for.
>
>I'm not really sure I will be seen as giving Lance a fair shot in this
>discussion so far, because I have taken a somewhat devils advocate
>position of sticking to explaining the reasons why I think Lance is no
>Eddy Merckx. We seem to have some agreement on that. This does not mean
>I think he's crap. I'd put Hinault and Coppi above him. Then it gets to
>be a closer call. There are still a number of other riders who have won
>far fewer TdF's than Lance, who I would consider to be in the same
>league as him, if not better. Your position may vary, but it is only an
>opinion. Another few days of this and we may even agree where Lance fits
>in our respective overall rankings:)

In ranking riders from different generations don't forget the
influence of money. One reason Merckx rode and won all those races was
because it was the only way he could make a decent living from the
sport.

Winning TdF in those days helped secure contracts for the post-Tour
crits, but otherwise was not that lucrative. Nowadays the way to make
most money from cycling is to win TdF.

I would say this goes back to Lemond in '89. Otherwise (apart from
maybe Pantani) every winner since has structured their season around
TdF to the exclusion of other races.

Regards!
Stephen

[Jim Price]

Steve McGinty wrote:
> In ranking riders from different generations don't forget the
> influence of money.

I certainly haven't forgotten it. See me trying not to sound cynical
about it earlier in the thread. See my sig for a clue to my opinions on
just doing things for money (individually and collectively).

> One reason Merckx rode and won all those races was
> because it was the only way he could make a decent living from the
> sport.

Glad you said only one. Another one is that it would have been a crime
to waste such outrageous talent.

> Winning TdF in those days helped secure contracts for the post-Tour
> crits, but otherwise was not that lucrative. Nowadays the way to make
> most money from cycling is to win TdF.

Or betting millions on the winner :)

> I would say this goes back to Lemond in '89. Otherwise (apart from
> maybe Pantani) every winner since has structured their season around
> TdF to the exclusion of other races.

Exactly what I am moaning about, I think. A more structured (and less
arbitrary) way of deciding who qualifies to ride the TdF is needed IMHO.

--
Jim Price

http://www.jimprice.dsl.pipex.com

Conscientious objection is hard work in an economic war.