Re: Confused about cranks....

[Pete Biggs]

Doesnotcompute wrote:
> As you may have read, I think my crank is knackered.
> During the ride yesterday, my LHS pedal came a little loose.

I'm confused. Do you mean pedal or crank? Riding with a crank loose on
the bottom bracket spindle will ruin the crank. Loose pedal might but not
so likely to.

Glossary: www.sheldonbrown.com/glossary.html

> I haven't stripped it down yet, but what exactly am I looking at and
> looking to replace? having a look on wiggle, it seems that whole
> chainsets are their option of choice, is it really necessary to
> replace 3 chain rings, arms and spider?

Quite possibly. You could get a few quid back by selling the chainrings
if they weren't needed by advertising them here or on eBay. Not a bad
idea to have spare rings and crank though.

~PB

[Frank X]

"Doesnotcompute" > wrote in message
...
> As you may have read, I think my crank is knackered.
>
> During the ride yesterday, my LHS pedal came a little loose.

You mean the crank came loose?

> At a stop one of the mech's used a torque wrench to tighten it back up
> but warned riding with it slack had probably cause damaged to the crank.
>

Dunno what type of bike you have, my cranks take an alum key.

It sounds bad, However you might still get away with it. Tighten the crank
again, as hard as you can, standing on alum key, whatever etc. But don't
strip the thread ;o)

Then repeat tightening after every ride for a few days, then every week for
a few weeks.

You may get away with it

[Doesnotcompute]

Dave Larrington wrote:

> Doesnotcompute wrote:
>
>
>>it seems that whole
>>chainsets are their option of choice, is it really necessary to
>>replace 3 chain rings, arms and spider?
>
> [...]
>
>>Any reason I can't do this myself and should give it to the LBS?
>
>
> What make / model is it? There are some places which sell cranksets so it
> /may/ be that you could retain the chainrings and save a few sponds. Doing
> the job is relatively straightforward, though you'll need the correct type
> of crank extractor to separate the thing
> from the bike.
>


Durr - sorry, should have said - Gary Fisher Joshua ZO

Hmm Crank extractor I don't have... LBS it is then.

--
Dnc

[Dave Larrington]

Doesnotcompute wrote:

> Durr - sorry, should have said - Gary Fisher Joshua ZO
>
> Hmm Crank extractor I don't have... LBS it is then.

Durr to me too - I should have asked what make / model is the chainset...
FWIW, http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ have a goodly selection of MTB
cranksets which might allow you to keep the existing rings. As well as a
crank extractor for a tenner:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/viewproduct.asp?category=Tools&ModelID=67
1

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
================================================== =========
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
================================================== =========

[Dave Larrington]

Doesnotcompute wrote:

> According to Sheldon Browns glossary, the crank is simply the arm
> between the bottom bracket and the pedals. So why can't I just by a
> new
> arm (or pair of) to replace the ones I've got? Why do I need a new
> spider and chainrings?

Way back when, you could - I once had to repace the left crank of a
Stronglight 99 after falling on black ice and bending it to the extent that
it could no longer trace a complete circle, as the chainstay prevented it
from so doing. St John St Cycles still sell odd cranks from time to time,
but the chances of their having the one you want are probably slim. This is
all part of the Conspiracy to make bicycles in bigger and bigger lumps, with
labels on them saying "No user-serviceable parts inside", grrr, chiz.

In most cases, FWIW, the spider is integral with the right crank.

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
================================================== =========
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
================================================== =========

[Doesnotcompute]

Dave Larrington wrote:
> Doesnotcompute wrote:
>
>
>>According to Sheldon Browns glossary, the crank is simply the arm
>>between the bottom bracket and the pedals. So why can't I just by a
>>new
>>arm (or pair of) to replace the ones I've got? Why do I need a new
>>spider and chainrings?
>
>
> Way back when, you could - I once had to repace the left crank of a
> Stronglight 99 after falling on black ice and bending it to the extent that
> it could no longer trace a complete circle, as the chainstay prevented it
> from so doing. St John St Cycles still sell odd cranks from time to time,
> but the chances of their having the one you want are probably slim. This is
> all part of the Conspiracy to make bicycles in bigger and bigger lumps, with
> labels on them saying "No user-serviceable parts inside", grrr, chiz.
>
> In most cases, FWIW, the spider is integral with the right crank.
>

And this is my point - It's the left hand side that's causing the grief
- or at least displaying the symptons - hence I really don't want to
replace the whole lot complete with chain rings.

I've just had a horrible thought - is it possible it's not the crank
that's worn, but the bottom bracket "end" where the crank slides on? Or
is it most likely to be the crank itself?

Thanks for your patience btw :)

--
Dnc

[Doesnotcompute]

Doesnotcompute wrote:


> I've just had a horrible thought - is it possible it's not the crank
> that's worn, but the bottom bracket "end"

I think the word I was looking for is "axel" I just couldn't think of it
when I needed it... of course the minute I hit the send button......

--
Dnc

[W K]

"Dave Larrington" > wrote in message
...
> Doesnotcompute wrote:
>
> > According to Sheldon Browns glossary, the crank is simply the arm
> > between the bottom bracket and the pedals. So why can't I just by a
> > new
> > arm (or pair of) to replace the ones I've got? Why do I need a new
> > spider and chainrings?

I bought a really cheap shimano SiS type full thing- chainrings, cranks the
lot - when I stripped the pedal thread on the crank arm.
I only changed the RH crank/spider/ring assembly, so this means I have a
spare LH crank arm (170mm).

BTW - to others - does the end of the bottom bracket get damaged by this
sort of thing, or is it only likely to be the crank arm ?

> St John St Cycles still sell odd cranks from time to time,
> but the chances of their having the one you want are probably slim. This
is
> all part of the Conspiracy to make bicycles in bigger and bigger lumps,
with
> labels on them saying "No user-serviceable parts inside", grrr, chiz.
>
> In most cases, FWIW, the spider is integral with the right crank.

And of course - bottom of the range ones have spider integrated with
chainrings too.

[Richard]

Doesnotcompute wrote:

> I've just had a horrible thought - is it possible it's not the crank
> that's worn, but the bottom bracket "end" where the crank slides on? Or
> is it most likely to be the crank itself?

FWIW, in my callow youth I had a loose left crank on my 10-speed. It
would get loose, I would ride around for yonks with it flapping and
being tightened by fingers every mile, then get around to borrowing the
correct tool and overtighten it badly, it would get loose, I would ride
around for yonks with it flapping, etc. When I was finally shown the
error of my ways, I had a good look at it. The "axle" was still
(tapered) square but the crank was horribly rounded inside.

R.

[Dave Larrington]

Doesnotcompute wrote:

> I've just had a horrible thought - is it possible it's not the crank
> that's worn, but the bottom bracket "end" where the crank slides on?
> Or
> is it most likely to be the crank itself?

I would /think/ that the crank is more likely to be damaged than the BB
axle, as cranks are usually aluminium, whereas the axle is usually steel,
and thus much harder.

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
================================================== =========
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
================================================== =========

[Jim Price]

Doesnotcompute wrote:

> And this is my point - It's the left hand side that's causing the grief
> - or at least displaying the symptons - hence I really don't want to
> replace the whole lot complete with chain rings.

Halfords sell an alloy 170mm left hand crank for about 8 UKP. It won't
look identical to whats on the other side, though. Others as mentioned
have been known to have LH cranks in stock.

> I've just had a horrible thought - is it possible it's not the crank
> that's worn, but the bottom bracket "end" where the crank slides on? Or
> is it most likely to be the crank itself?

Its almost certainly the crank. I did once manage to put a dent in an
axle once, but that was using a setup Heath Robinson could have designed
for Powergen. Other stuff got a lot more deformed in the process.

--
Jim Price

http://www.jimprice.dsl.pipex.com

Conscientious objection is hard work in an economic war.

[Pete Biggs]

W K wrote:
> does the end of the bottom bracket get damaged by
> this sort of thing, or is it only likely to be the crank arm ?

It'll be the crank. BB axles are steel and can take a lot of abuse.
Cranks are *easily* damaged (rounded off) by being ridden when loose.

~PB

[Pete Biggs]

Doesnotcompute wrote:

>>> As you may have read, I think my crank is knackered.
>>> During the ride yesterday, my LHS pedal came a little loose.
>>
>> I'm confused. Do you mean pedal or crank?
>
> How long is a piece of string?

Twice as long as half a piece ;-)

> I mean the 8mm Hex bolt from the pedal
> arm
[crank]
> into the bottom bracket area.

I hope I'm not confusing the issue even more, but if it's just the BOLT
coming "a little loose" and the crank itself seems to be holding itself on
ok, there may not be a problem at all.........

Please read: http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8f.11.html

note. "spindle" = bottom bracket axle

~PB

[Frank X]

"Pete Biggs" > wrote in message
...
>
> Please read: http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8f.11.html
>

Jobst overstates this, my current road bike had it's left crank go floppy a
year ago, I needed to pop into a bike shop mid ride to get it fixed back on.

I did have to tighten the crank bolt a few times in the weeks after it
happend, but haven't tightened it for nearly a year and it is fine.

I've never had a split crank, is it a catastophic failure that I should be
worried about?

[Doesnotcompute]

Dave Larrington wrote:
> Doesnotcompute wrote:
>
>
>>Durr - sorry, should have said - Gary Fisher Joshua ZO
>>
>>Hmm Crank extractor I don't have... LBS it is then.
>
>
> Durr to me too - I should have asked what make / model is the chainset...

Okay, now I'm home and although faded I reckon the markings suggest
Shimano Deore LX.

Would that suggest I can directly replace with this:

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/v2_product_detail.asp?ProdID=5300005341

If so I reckon that's an acceptable price to sort the cranks and the
bent toothed chainring.

--
Dnc

[Jim Price]

Doesnotcompute wrote:
> Okay, now I'm home and although faded I reckon the markings suggest
> Shimano Deore LX.
>
> Would that suggest I can directly replace with this:
>
> http://www.wiggle.co.uk/v2_product_detail.asp?ProdID=5300005341

Whoa! That looks like an Octalink crankset. It will NOT fit the axle on
your current bottom bracket. Also, its not the cheapest place to get it.

> If so I reckon that's an acceptable price to sort the cranks and the
> bent toothed chainring.

You can get the above crankset with ES70 bottom bracket for less than
Wiggle are charging just for the crankset from www.bonthronebikes.co.uk.


--
Jim Price

http://www.jimprice.dsl.pipex.com

Conscientious objection is hard work in an economic war.

[zerling]

"Doesnotcompute" > wrote in message
...
> As you may have read, I think my crank is knackered.
>
> During the ride yesterday, my LHS pedal came a little loose.
> At a stop one of the mech's used a torque wrench to tighten it back up
> but warned riding with it slack had probably cause damaged to the crank.
>
> Cest la vie thinks I, nowt I can do about it in the middle of no-where,
> soldier on and deal with it afterwards.
>
> Sure enough not more than a mile from leaving the mech, the
> creaking/clicking returned, by the time I finished, people were double
> taking due to the amount of noice coming from my bottom bracket area!
>
> I haven't stripped it down yet, but what exactly am I looking at and
> looking to replace? having a look on wiggle, it seems that whole
> chainsets are their option of choice, is it really necessary to replace
> 3 chain rings, arms and spider?
>

A cheap repair is to remove crank (you won't need a puller now it's worked
loose); wrap a thin strip of aluminium drink can (say 0.25 inch wide) around
the taper; replace crank and tighten screw. The aluminium seems to act as
an adequate shim, though its worth checking the screw tightness periodically
afterwards.

Saves money on chain rings etc!

[Jim Price]

Jim Price wrote:
> Doesnotcompute wrote:
>> Shimano Deore LX.
>>
>> Would that suggest I can directly replace with this:
>>
>> http://www.wiggle.co.uk/v2_product_detail.asp?ProdID=5300005341
>
> Whoa! That looks like an Octalink crankset. It will NOT fit the axle on
> your current bottom bracket. Also, its not the cheapest place to get it.

I fired that reply off as quickly as possible, just in case you were
sitting in front of your computer with credit card in hand.

A more measured response would go something like this:

You need to buy a square tapered crankset to fit your existing bottom
bracket. The best value in town is probably the Shimano Deore, which you
should be able to get from around 40 UKP discounted. Wiggle do them for
just over 52 UKP. They don't sell an LX square taper at the moment it
would seem, but the difference would only really amount to a chainring
or two made of steel rather than alloy. The steel may last longer. If
you buy a bottom bracket which says anything like "Octalink", splined or
ISIS anywhere in the description, it will not fit your existing bottom
bracket. Not even slightly.

One more detail - your existing crankset is probably a compact drive
model. This means it will have around 44 teeth around the biggest
chainwheel. If you get a standard drive replacement, it may scrape
against the chainstays, and you might need a longer chain. Best to
replace like with like.

>> If so I reckon that's an acceptable price to sort the cranks and the
>> bent toothed chainring.
>
> You can get the above crankset with ES70 bottom bracket for less than
> Wiggle are charging just for the crankset from www.bonthronebikes.co.uk.

If you did go for splined and replacing the bottom bracket aswell, you
would also need the bottom bracket extraction tool, which would be
probably about a tenner. The proper one to have will have enough
clearance to do tapered and splined bottom brackets. Shimano claim the
splined design is stronger. I have one, and it is very good so far
(although I never suffered problems with square tapered cranks, as I
take great care and a torque wrench to them).

--
Jim Price

http://www.jimprice.dsl.pipex.com

Conscientious objection is hard work in an economic war.

[the Mark]

Richard wrote:
> Doesnotcompute wrote:
>
>> I've just had a horrible thought - is it possible it's not the crank
>> that's worn, but the bottom bracket "end" where the crank slides on?
>> Or is it most likely to be the crank itself?
>
> FWIW, in my callow youth I had a loose left crank on my 10-speed. It
> would get loose, I would ride around for yonks with it flapping and
> being tightened by fingers every mile, then get around to borrowing
> the correct tool and overtighten it badly, it would get loose, I
> would ride around for yonks with it flapping, etc. When I was
> finally shown the error of my ways, I had a good look at it. The
> "axle" was still (tapered) square but the crank was horribly rounded
> inside.
>
> R.

That sounds similar to a problem I had 2 or 3 years ago. Eventually found a
large crack in the crank where it went on the bottom bracket.

I got a replacement for just the left crank at Halfords.
--
Mark
Road bike, Mountain bike and
I'm getting something special built for me (I hope it will arrive soon).

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 19:57:33 +0100, "zerling"
> wrote:

>A cheap repair is to remove crank (you won't need a puller now it's worked
>loose); wrap a thin strip of aluminium drink can (say 0.25 inch wide) around
>the taper; replace crank and tighten screw.

That is a get-you-home repair - it won't last. Unless you are
terminally skint I recommend doing the job properly - but if the bike
is recent (which I think it is) the LBS may well have a left-hand
crank on the shelf.

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony.
http://www.chapmancentral.com
[currently offline awaiting ADSL transfer to new ISP]

[Sandy Morton]

In article >, Dave Larrington
> wrote:
> Way back when, you could - I once had to repace the left crank of a
> Stronglight 99 after falling on black ice and bending it to the extent
> that it could no longer trace a complete circle, as the chainstay
> prevented it from so doing. St John St Cycles still sell odd cranks
> from time to time, but the chances of their having the one you want are
> probably slim. This is all part of the Conspiracy to make bicycles in
> bigger and bigger lumps, with labels on them saying "No user-serviceable
> parts inside", grrr, chiz.

It sounds as if he only needs a left hand crank - pretty standard as long
as the cosmetic appearance doesn't matter too much. UKP 2-00 plus postage
and I'll loan him the tools to do it - provided they are returned!

--
A T (Sandy) Morton
on the Bicycle Island
In the Global Village
http://www.sandymillport.fsnet.co.uk

[Sandy Morton]

In article >,
Doesnotcompute > wrote:
> I've just had a horrible thought - is it possible it's not the crank
> that's worn, but the bottom bracket "end" where the crank slides on?

Nope.

> Or is it most likely to be the crank itself?

Yep.

--
A T (Sandy) Morton
on the Bicycle Island
In the Global Village
http://www.sandymillport.fsnet.co.uk

[Doesnotcompute]

Jim Price wrote:
> Jim Price wrote:
>
>> Doesnotcompute wrote:
>>
>>> Shimano Deore LX.
>>>
>>> Would that suggest I can directly replace with this:
>>>
>>> http://www.wiggle.co.uk/v2_product_detail.asp?ProdID=5300005341
>>
>>
>> Whoa! That looks like an Octalink crankset. It will NOT fit the axle
>> on your current bottom bracket. Also, its not the cheapest place to
>> get it.
>
>
> I fired that reply off as quickly as possible, just in case you were
> sitting in front of your computer with credit card in hand.

Heh - no chance - I know life to well to do that!

> A more measured response would go something like this:
>
> You need to buy a square tapered crankset to fit your existing bottom
> bracket. The best value in town is probably the Shimano Deore, which you
> should be able to get from around 40 UKP discounted. Wiggle do them for
> just over 52 UKP.

Okay - "tapered" refers to what? the shape of the hole in the arm that
fits over the axel?

> They don't sell an LX square taper at the moment it

The difference? I'm guessing "Deore" is bottome range, "lx" is next up
and so on and so forth?

> would seem, but the difference would only really amount to a chainring
> or two made of steel rather than alloy.

And on a full sus MTB, this is hardly an issue right?

> The steel may last longer. If
> you buy a bottom bracket which says anything like "Octalink", splined or
> ISIS anywhere in the description, it will not fit your existing bottom
> bracket. Not even slightly.

I'm a bit ****ed, but I guess you mean and octalink/isis/splined
CHAINSET won't fit my current bottom bracket?
>
> One more detail - your existing crankset is probably a compact drive
> model. This means it will have around 44 teeth around the biggest
> chainwheel. If you get a standard drive replacement, it may scrape
> against the chainstays, and you might need a longer chain. Best to
> replace like with like.

Heh - idiot time - what's a chain stay?
>
>>> If so I reckon that's an acceptable price to sort the cranks and the
>>> bent toothed chainring.
>>
>>
>> You can get the above crankset with ES70 bottom bracket for less than
>> Wiggle are charging just for the crankset from www.bonthronebikes.co.uk.

Okay, if I did that, I'd then remove current chainset and BB, replace
new BB and Chainset and robert is the brother of my father?

> If you did go for splined

Which means? and what's the benefit?

> and replacing the bottom bracket aswell, you
> would also need the bottom bracket extraction tool, which would be
> probably about a tenner.

Okay - I can do that. Does that suggest your recommended crankset and BB
will need this gizmo too?

> The proper one to have will have enough
> clearance to do tapered and splined bottom brackets. Shimano claim the
> splined design is stronger. I have one, and it is very good so far
> (although I never suffered problems with square tapered cranks, as I
> take great care and a torque wrench to them).

Hmm - is it worth investing in a torque? thinking about it, we might
have one at work that I can borrow.

Thanks fro your post - most helpful...

--
Dnc

[Pete Biggs]

Doesnotcompute wrote:

>> I hope I'm not confusing the issue even more, but if it's just the
>> BOLT coming "a little loose" and the crank itself seems to be
>> holding itself on ok, there may not be a problem at all.........
>
> The bolt was coming loose, therefore the crank had play

No, not "therefore". It is possible for the bolt to appear loose even
when the crank has no play......

> , therefore it
> seems it's knackered. Even with the bolt torqued correctly, there is
> still much noise, creaking and groaning of the cranks. How is this
> "not
> a problem at all" ?

I said: ...AND if the crank is holding itself on ok. But you have now
made it clear that this does not apply. I was giving you some more info
in case the crank was now staying on ok (since the last tightening since
your last post) but just the bolt still seemed to work loose.

>> Please read: http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8f.11.html
>
> Excellent. I read it.

All of it? The most relevant bit is half way down......

> I'm still not sure what point you're trying to
> make? Or was it just for interesting reading?

I was trying to help you - but didn't have time to explain in full and
thought the full explanation included the article would do. The point is
that the bolt can seem to work loose even when there's no problem because
cranks can naturally squirm further onto the axle: bolt should not be
repeatedly tightened.

~PB

[Dave Larrington]

I am particularly taken by the cut-'n'-paste job on the Wiggle site:

"The new LX crank features "see through" hollow bottom bracket bolts to
initiate discussion at the sales floor about the Hollowtech design."

Marketroids, eh? Tch!

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
================================================== =========
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
================================================== =========

[Jim Price]

Doesnotcompute wrote:

> Okay - "tapered" refers to what? the shape of the hole in the arm that
> fits over the axel?

Yes.

> The difference? I'm guessing "Deore" is bottome range, "lx" is next up
> and so on and so forth?

Yes, sort of. Deore is the point in the range where the good stuff
starts in the view of a lot of people. In my view, it is the price point
above which the law of diminishing returns cuts in, i.e. such good value
for money that its not worth paying more (or less).

>> would seem, but the difference would only really amount to a chainring
>> or two made of steel rather than alloy.
>
> And on a full sus MTB, this is hardly an issue right?

In my opinion, yes. You need to be pretty damned good to actually need
the difference.

> I'm a bit ****ed, but I guess you mean and octalink/isis/splined
> CHAINSET won't fit my current bottom bracket?

Yes.

>> One more detail - your existing crankset is probably a compact drive
>> model. This means it will have around 44 teeth around the biggest
>> chainwheel. If you get a standard drive replacement, it may scrape
>> against the chainstays, and you might need a longer chain. Best to
>> replace like with like.
>
> Heh - idiot time - what's a chain stay?

The chain stays are the two tubes which go from behind the bottom
bracket to each side of the rear axle.

>>> You can get the above crankset with ES70 bottom bracket for less than
>>> Wiggle are charging just for the crankset from www.bonthronebikes.co.uk.
>
> Okay, if I did that, I'd then remove current chainset and BB, replace
> new BB and Chainset and robert is the brother of my father?

Yes, Your geneology is exemplary.

>> If you did go for splined
>
> Which means? and what's the benefit?

Splined means the Octalink/ISIS type of pedal fitting, where you have 8
or 10 teeth on the axle which engage with similar holes on the crank.
The benefit is nominally that you will get a stiffer/stronger joint
here, and would be an advantage to someone who regularly breaks cranks
at this joint. You have only broken this joint once, so its not yet
clear whether you would get the full benefit. It may be a worthwhile
solution if you wants belt and braces.

>> and replacing the bottom bracket aswell, you would also need the
>> bottom bracket extraction tool, which would be probably about a tenner.
>
> Okay - I can do that. Does that suggest your recommended crankset and BB
> will need this gizmo too?

If you want to fit it yourself without bodging, yes.

> Hmm - is it worth investing in a torque? thinking about it, we might
> have one at work that I can borrow.

For one use, borrow it.

> Thanks fro your post - most helpful...

Thankyou.

--
Jim Price

http://www.jimprice.dsl.pipex.com

Conscientious objection is hard work in an economic war.

[Doesnotcompute]

Jim Price wrote:

<snip everything except>

> Thankyou.
>

No, thank *you* I think we've probably reached a conclusion to my
question. I knew I'd get there in the ended - I just needed to find the
patient soul to guide me firmly in the right direction.

Thanks again

--
Dnc

[Jim Price]

Geraint Jones wrote:

> wrote:

> ( Halfords sell an alloy 170mm left hand crank for about 8 UKP. It won't
> ) look identical to whats on the other side, though. Others as mentioned
> ( have been known to have LH cranks in stock.
>
> Mind you having recently replaced my chainset (or rather the chainset
> of my bike) in stages I know that the whole thing is a bit odd if you
> have (or rather your bike has) crank arms of even slightly different
> weights on the two sides. I only had it that way for a day or two and
> that was not long enough to learn how to mount a bike that back-pedalled
> itself, but there was a distinct bottom-bracket wobble while pedalling
> that gave me the impression that I (and my bicycle) was weaving along
> the road when I was not.

I have a bike which currently has three cranks, and none of them are on
the same bottom bracket as any of the others of a similar weight. I've
not noticed any wobbling on that one, there is too much chain for it to
back pedal on its own, and no-one has yet called me Jake. Its the bent
in the link below.

The angle grinder will have its day one day, though.

--
Jim Price

http://www.jimprice.dsl.pipex.com

Conscientious objection is hard work in an economic war.