Re: Barr Beacon and the Ice Lolly

[Tenex]

Richard Bates wrote:
> Did a ten mile ride this evening. Up to the top of Barr Beacon, just
> north of Birmingham.
> (http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newprint.srf?x=406500&y=297500&z=4)
>
> It's the highest point for miles and miles.

Wasn't that the site of the accidental shooting?

[Richard Bates]

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 23:28:24 GMT, "Tenex" > in
> wrote:

>Wasn't that the site of the accidental shooting?

Maybe be that would explain why there was a police car up there? It's
the first I'd heard of a shooting up there.
--
If ingnorance is bliss then I am the erm er
luckiest thingy in the whatchamacallit.
To mail me, change the obvious bit to richard

[elyob]

"Richard Bates" > wrote in
message ...
> On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 23:28:24 GMT, "Tenex" > in
> > wrote:
>
> >Wasn't that the site of the accidental shooting?
>
> Maybe be that would explain why there was a police car up there? It's
> the first I'd heard of a shooting up there.

Accidental shooting? ... http://tinyurl.com/i97l

[Tenex]

elyob wrote:
> "Richard Bates" >
> wrote in message ...
>> On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 23:28:24 GMT, "Tenex" > in
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Wasn't that the site of the accidental shooting?
>>
>> Maybe be that would explain why there was a police car up there? It's
>> the first I'd heard of a shooting up there.
>
> Accidental shooting? ... http://tinyurl.com/i97l



No not that. When people are taught to shoot (generally rifle but also
pistol) the Barr Beacon incident is a cautionary safety tale.

I can't remember it in detail but it happened 30-40 years ago and runs like
this:
a man was shooting with a sporting .22, he was somewhere well down the hill
concentrating on ground based animals- rabbits probably - but upon seeing a
bird in a tree he lifted his rifle and fired, but missed. On the other side
of the hill a family were picnicing(?) and the trajectory of the shot was
such that the bullet passed over the hill and killed the father as he sat
with his wife and children.

[Doesnotcompute]

Tenex wrote:
> Richard Bates wrote:
>
>>Did a ten mile ride this evening. Up to the top of Barr Beacon, just
>>north of Birmingham.
>>(http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newprint.srf?x=406500&y=297500&z=4)
>>
>>It's the highest point for miles and miles.
>
>
> Wasn't that the site of the accidental shooting?
>
>

Heh - is there any such thing as an accidental shooting?

You have a gun
It's loaded and cocked
The trigger is pulled
Gun discharges.

Where is the accident?

--
Dnc

[Tenex]

Doesnotcompute wrote:
> Heh - is there any such thing as an accidental shooting?
>
> You have a gun
> It's loaded and cocked
> The trigger is pulled
> Gun discharges.
>
> Where is the accident?

Depends on the meaning of shooting. An accidental death such as illustrated
above versus a process namely firing a gun in a situation in which nothing
living is hit I'd say.

[Doesnotcompute]

Tenex wrote:
> Doesnotcompute wrote:
>
>>Heh - is there any such thing as an accidental shooting?
>>
>>You have a gun
>>It's loaded and cocked
>>The trigger is pulled
>>Gun discharges.
>>
>>Where is the accident?
>
>
> Depends on the meaning of shooting. An accidental death such as illustrated
> above versus a process namely firing a gun in a situation in which nothing
> living is hit I'd say.

Hmm. If the trigger was pulled by a finger, then there is no accident
about it. Whilst the death may not have been premeditated (Murder) and
was an unfortunate event of circumstance (Manslaughter) it cannot be
defined an "accidental shooting". The gun was prepared and discharged
deliberately.

If the gun discharged with no deliberate mechanism, ie a fault, then
that could possibly be accidental, but why a locked and loaded weapon
was being pointed at someone is still dubious. First rule of handling a
gun - do _not_ point it at anyone - even if it is not loaded.

And to think, some Merkians can purchase weaponry before they can drink
or drive!

--
Dnc

[Tenex]

Doesnotcompute wrote:
> but why a locked and loaded weapon was being pointed at someone is still
dubious.


It appears you didn't read my post. The reason this incident is used as an
example is the fact that the gun user was on the opposite side of the hill
to the picnic and there was no prospect of seeing the picnickers. It is
used to illustrate the fact that trajectory has a significant impact on
range and thereby on the safe use of firearms.

[doesnotcompute]

"Tenex" > wrote in message
...
> Doesnotcompute wrote:
> > but why a locked and loaded weapon was being pointed at someone is still
> dubious.
>
>
> It appears you didn't read my post. The reason this incident is used as
an
> example is the fact that the gun user was on the opposite side of the hill
> to the picnic and there was no prospect of seeing the picnickers. It is
> used to illustrate the fact that trajectory has a significant impact on
> range and thereby on the safe use of firearms.

No I did read your post, you've quoted me out of context.
Even in the case in your post the shooting was not accidental. The bearer of
arms deliberately pulled the trigger to discharge the weapon. No accident.

--
Dnc

[Tenex]

doesnotcompute wrote:
> No I did read your post, you've quoted me out of context.
> Even in the case in your post the shooting was not accidental. The
> bearer of arms deliberately pulled the trigger to discharge the
> weapon. No accident.

The law recognises, in the case of illegal killing of a human, the presence
or absence of intent (mens rea) to do harm to that individual, which is
recognised in the differing charges of murder (with intent) and manslaughter
(without intent).

For example, assume that A shoots deliberately at B intending to kill B. A
misses and the ricochet hits C. A is likely to be found guilty of
manslaughter not murder because of the absence of intent.

My point, which you appear to be wilfully ignoring, is not that the pulling
of the trigger was accidental but that the death of an individual was
accidental.

[Doesnotcompute]

Tenex wrote:

> My point, which you appear to be wilfully ignoring, is not that the pulling
> of the trigger was accidental but that the death of an individual was
> accidental.

It appears to be you who is missing the point.
I have never disagreed that the death of the individual was unfortunate
and not deliberate.

I merely stated that there was no such thing as an "accidental shooting"
as described in the original post.

--
Dnc

[Richard Bates]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 20:03:58 +0100, Doesnotcompute
> in
> wrote:

>Tenex wrote:
>
>> My point, which you appear to be wilfully ignoring, is not that the pulling
>> of the trigger was accidental but that the death of an individual was
>> accidental.
>
>It appears to be you who is missing the point.
>I have never disagreed that the death of the individual was unfortunate
>and not deliberate.
>
>I merely stated that there was no such thing as an "accidental shooting"
>as described in the original post.

Hey, everybody, calm down. I only said that ihad an ice lolly!

Love and juice from Rich x

--
If ingnorance is bliss then I am the erm er
luckiest thingy in the whatchamacallit.
To mail me, change the obvious bit to richard

[marc]

Doesnotcompute > wrote:

> I merely stated that there was no such thing as an "accidental shooting"
> as described in the original post.
The shooting was accidental, the discharge of the weapon wasn't.


--
Marc
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