Re: Tents and bags?

[Andy Laycock]

For a lightweight tent I would recommend a Saunders Spacepacker (any
version). They are light (less than 2kg) have 2 massive porches, a large
inner tent and are very stable in high winds. More info at
www.robertsaunders.co.uk

If you call Saunders they often have ex display tents at massive discounts,
i.e. £299 down to £195. I got mine this way and have had no problems.

For a sleeping bag it depends if you want synthetic or down. For summer I
use a down Mountain Equipment Dewline. It's a down bag and packs to around
20cm x 14cm. Temp to minus 5 c. It doesn't have a zip but that does keep the
weight down. Price, around £150. For winter I have a ME Snowline. Same make
and group but it will go to minus 20 c.

Cheers

Andy



Steve Watkin" > wrote in message
...
> Recommendations please for L/W 2 man tents and good warm and light
sleeping
> bags.
> Just come back from a wonderful week on Mull but the camping gear that I
> took with me was far too heavy.
> So I need to buy better (lighter) gear for my next trip!
>
>

[Niv]

Vango do some lightweight 2 man tents; I've got a 1 man job, quite neat, but
not cheap.

Niv.

"Steve Watkin" > wrote in message
...
> Recommendations please for L/W 2 man tents and good warm and light
sleeping
> bags.
> Just come back from a wonderful week on Mull but the camping gear that I
> took with me was far too heavy.
> So I need to buy better (lighter) gear for my next trip!
>
>

[Clive George]

"Andy Laycock" > wrote in message
...
> For a lightweight tent I would recommend a Saunders Spacepacker (any
> version). They are light (less than 2kg) have 2 massive porches, a large
> inner tent and are very stable in high winds. More info at
> www.robertsaunders.co.uk

Seconded Peter Clinch's comments : if you're tall, you want the plus.

On pits:

> It doesn't have a zip but that does keep the weight down.

I like to be able to stick my feet out a lot of the time, so no zip is a
no-no.

cheers,
clive

[mark]

"Peter Clinch" wrote ...

I prefer down to synthetics: packs smaller and weighs less at any given
effect. Costs a lot more, but lasts practically indefinitely if well
cared for, where even the best synthetics will lose a lot of their loft
after a few years, so the cost does even out in the longer term. You
mustn't get it wet, but then you really don't want to get *any* sleeping
bag wet. Put it in a waterproof bag (separate dry bag if you don't have
waterproof panniers) and it won't get wet, end of problem.

Pete.

It's true that you don't want to get *any* sleeping bag wet, but a wet
synthetic bag will dry out far more quickly than a wet down bag, and will
retain some insulating value while a wet down bag will be worse than
worthless. Down also loses it's loft when it gets dirty (body oils, etc.)
and should not be dry cleaned. Washing and drying a down bag is a rather
time consuming process, compared to washing a synthetic bag.

I use a lightweight down bag with a separate silk liner that I remove and
wash after each trip, and I am *very* careful not to let the bag get wet. As
Pete pointed out, the extra durability, comfort, light weight, and
compressibility more than offset the extra expense and care required by a
down bag.
--
mark

[Peter Clinch]

mark wrote:

> Down also loses it's loft when it gets dirty (body oils, etc.)
> and should not be dry cleaned. Washing and drying a down bag is a rather
> time consuming process, compared to washing a synthetic bag.

This is true. See
http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/downcare.htm for more
details, but use it with a liner and/or send it to Franklins every
couple of years and it's not actually a problem. To wash a synthetic
bag, chuck it in washing machine and that's it. If you envisage lots
and lots of grime then synth may well be better...

> I use a lightweight down bag with a separate silk liner that I remove and
> wash after each trip, and I am *very* careful not to let the bag get wet. As
> Pete pointed out, the extra durability, comfort, light weight, and
> compressibility more than offset the extra expense and care required by a
> down bag.

I've not used synthetics for years now, so will have to report second
hand, but People Who Know (Chris Townsend, for example) also report that
down is also comfortable over a greater temperature range, so you tend
not to overcook quite so badly in a bag that's warmer than you need on a
given occasion.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

[Simon Brooke]

Peter Clinch > writes:

> mark wrote:
>
> > Down also loses it's loft when it gets dirty (body oils, etc.)
> > and should not be dry cleaned. Washing and drying a down bag is a rather
> > time consuming process, compared to washing a synthetic bag.
>
> This is true. See
> http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/downcare.htm for more
> details, but use it with a liner and/or send it to Franklins every
> couple of years and it's not actually a problem. To wash a synthetic
> bag, chuck it in washing machine and that's it. If you envisage lots
> and lots of grime then synth may well be better...

Also if you envisage any sort of small boat use synthetic is better,
unfortunately. Keeping things 100% dry in a small boat is tricky, and
down bags like salt water even less than they like fresh. Yes, I know
this is a cycling group, but I know for certain I'm not the only
person here who cycles and sails, and I suspect there are kayakers
here also.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Anagram: I'm soon broke.

[Peter Clinch]

Simon Brooke wrote:

> Also if you envisage any sort of small boat use synthetic is better,
> unfortunately. Keeping things 100% dry in a small boat is tricky, and
> down bags like salt water even less than they like fresh. Yes, I know
> this is a cycling group, but I know for certain I'm not the only
> person here who cycles and sails, and I suspect there are kayakers
> here also.

There are indeed: I'm a sea kayaker, and I choose down bags when I'm sea
kayaking. I manage to keep them dry, and the packability still puts
them way ahead for me, so I'd debate the "any sort of small boat use"
for synthetic superiority. Last time I went sailing was a fairly benign
jaunt around the Ionian where there was no danger of wet bedding.
Hardly the Minch, but it does come under some kind of small boat use.

Keeping bags dry really isn't as tricky as some people think. Dry bag
to stow it in for travel, and unpack for sleeping in dry places. If
you're really concerned a lightweight cover like the Rab one will do for
the odd stormbound night in a gale and not force you to cart around
twice the bulk and 150% of the weight the rest of the time.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

[Andy Laycock]

> Also if you envisage any sort of small boat use synthetic is better,
> unfortunately. Keeping things 100% dry in a small boat is tricky, and
> down bags like salt water even less than they like fresh. Yes, I know
> this is a cycling group, but I know for certain I'm not the only
> person here who cycles and sails, and I suspect there are kayakers
> here also.

I'm a dinghy sailor and have been taking my Dewline sailing (and swimming a
few times) for years. It has never got wet. Just have to be sensible and
pack it properly.

Cheers

Andy

[the Baker-Bealls]

"Peter Clinch" > wrote in message
...
> Simon Brooke wrote:
>
> > Also if you envisage any sort of small boat use synthetic is better,
> > unfortunately. Keeping things 100% dry in a small boat is tricky, and
> > down bags like salt water even less than they like fresh. Yes, I know
> > this is a cycling group, but I know for certain I'm not the only
> > person here who cycles and sails, and I suspect there are kayakers
> > here also.
>
> There are indeed: I'm a sea kayaker, and I choose down bags when I'm sea
> kayaking. I manage to keep them dry, and the packability still puts
> them way ahead for me, so I'd debate the "any sort of small boat use"
> for synthetic superiority. Last time I went sailing was a fairly benign
> jaunt around the Ionian where there was no danger of wet bedding.
> Hardly the Minch, but it does come under some kind of small boat use.
>
> Keeping bags dry really isn't as tricky as some people think. Dry bag
> to stow it in for travel, and unpack for sleeping in dry places. If
> you're really concerned a lightweight cover like the Rab one will do for
> the odd stormbound night in a gale and not force you to cart around
> twice the bulk and 150% of the weight the rest of the time.
>

I sail a lot, cruising and racing and I would definitely use synthetics for
a boat bag. Why? Well easy to keep your bag dry when it's packed; not always
so easy in use - particularly in the normal northern european climate. It
only needs salt water on it once to get damp and stay damp as the salt will
absorb water from the atmosphere and your bag is clammy for the rest of the
trip. Salt water gets below easily once peple are wearing oilies and if the
weather is bad and you are standing watches it is only to easy to get your
bag damp , if not wet from the general activity of both yourself and other
crew members. What I can really recommend if you are faced with a wet bunk
is Musto's fluffy Polartec blankets - warm and comfy when wet!

[Simon Brooke]

"Andy Laycock" > writes:

> > Also if you envisage any sort of small boat use synthetic is better,
> > unfortunately. Keeping things 100% dry in a small boat is tricky, and
> > down bags like salt water even less than they like fresh. Yes, I know
> > this is a cycling group, but I know for certain I'm not the only
> > person here who cycles and sails, and I suspect there are kayakers
> > here also.
>
> I'm a dinghy sailor and have been taking my Dewline sailing (and swimming a
> few times) for years. It has never got wet. Just have to be sensible and
> pack it properly.

Yup, but when _you're_ wet and you get into a dry bag the bag gets
wet. And if you can undress and dry yourself completely in a
lightweight two man tent, or in a small boat cabin, before getting
into your bag on a day when it's raining stairrods and very item of
clothing you've got is saturated, you're a better man than I am.

Not that I don't agree that down bags are better - they are very much
better, _if_ you can keep them dry. But I have synthetic ones because,
in my experience, under real conditions in Scotland, they _will_ get
damp.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Anagram: I'm soon broke.

[Andy Laycock]

> Yup, but when _you're_ wet and you get into a dry bag the bag gets
> wet. And if you can undress and dry yourself completely in a
> lightweight two man tent, or in a small boat cabin, before getting
> into your bag on a day when it's raining stairrods and very item of
> clothing you've got is saturated, you're a better man than I am.

My trick especially when backpacking is to pack a set of dry clothes in with
my sleeping bag. When I have got my tent up I take off my waterproofs and
the clothes. Put them in the porch and put on a set I will only wear in the
tent after I have dried off a little. Getting in a sleeping bag when wet
isn't the best idea in the world. Nor do I put my socks in the bottom of the
bag to dry them out a little, like I know some people do. When it comes to
the morning it's back on with the other clothes. If you wear good
waterproofs your clothes shouldn't become that wet, and you'll soon warm up
when your doing something. If it's really wet I use a bigger stuff sack and
leave my bag inside my gore-tex bivvy bag. This gives it a better chance of
staying dry esp. in the tent and it makes it a little warmer if its cold.
It's all in the preparation. I spent 3 weeks walking round Norway when it
threw it down quite a lot and I never had a wet bag and always had a dry set
of clothes.

Cheers

Andy

[Peter Clinch]

Simon Brooke wrote:

> Yup, but when _you're_ wet and you get into a dry bag the bag gets
> wet. And if you can undress and dry yourself completely in a
> lightweight two man tent, or in a small boat cabin, before getting
> into your bag on a day when it's raining stairrods and very item of
> clothing you've got is saturated, you're a better man than I am.

Don't know about the boat cabin, but in the tent the same thing that
allows me to travel with a dry bag also means I always have dry clothes
and a towel (or if the towel's got wet drying things, I can use the dry
clothes if I have to). And a good two man tent has plenty of room to
get dry in, if it's a decent one.

> Not that I don't agree that down bags are better - they are very much
> better, _if_ you can keep them dry. But I have synthetic ones because,
> in my experience, under real conditions in Scotland, they _will_ get
> damp.

Chris Townsend did a backpacking tour taking in all of the Munros in one
go not too long ago. It took him months, and it rained on over half the
days. He had a *one* man tent, and a down sleeping bag. It never got
wet. Sounds like real Scottish conditions to me!

Also we need to clarify what we mean by "damp". Modern bags often have
highly water-resistant shells (not waterproof, as the seams aren't
taped), but these will keep the down free of water even with spills and
drips about in a fair quantity. I've been using down in Scotland since
the late 80s for mountaineering, and since 2000 for sea kayaking. Last
time I got a bag wet was about 12 years ago (and learning from my
mistakes, current procedures it wouldn't get wet if I was in a similar
situation again). I'll defer to others' experience for small boat
cabins, but for camping if you know it mustn't get wet then it won't get
wet if you put your mind to it. Otherwise I wouldn't use down bags
because I'd keep on getting no sleep from soaking down bags...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/