Slightly OT, Belisha beacons

[martin]

ISTR hearing recently that BBs were to be phased out and replaced by
Pelicans. From a ped point of view I can see the logic, a big red
light is harder to ignore than a flashing orange thingy, but I have
noticed many new installations of Belishas where a Pleican would be
wholly inappropriate. From a cyclist point of view I find them much
easier to negotiate, you don't get the cager police honking you when
you ride over one which has no ped on it. Did anyone else here about
them being phased out?
ps the ones with illuminated white srtipes on the post are even
better.

[Andy P]

"martin" > wrote

> ISTR hearing recently that BBs were to be phased out and replaced by
> Pelicans. From a ped point of view I can see the logic, a big red
> light is harder to ignore than a flashing orange thingy, but I have
> noticed many new installations of Belishas where a Pleican would be
> wholly inappropriate. From a cyclist point of view I find them much
> easier to negotiate, you don't get the cager police honking you when
> you ride over one which has no ped on it. Did anyone else here about
> them being phased out?
> ps the ones with illuminated white srtipes on the post are even
> better.

They've just put something in the centre of Bristol which I think is called
a Puffin crossing. Unlike the Pelican crossings they replaced there is no
green/red man to see on the other side of the road. There's only the one on
the press button so that only the couple of people standing right next to it
can see it. What on earth kind of thinking is that?

[Simonb]

Andy P wrote:

> They've just put something in the centre of Bristol which I think is
> called a Puffin crossing. Unlike the Pelican crossings they replaced
> there is no green/red man to see on the other side of the road.
> There's only the one on the press button so that only the couple of
> people standing right next to it can see it. What on earth kind of
> thinking is that?

It does sound a bit mean to me.

ps, the company I work for makes the sensor ICs for the touch controls on
these things

[Lester]

"Andy P" > wrote in message
...
>
> They've just put something in the centre of Bristol which I think is
called
> a Puffin crossing. Unlike the Pelican crossings they replaced there is no
> green/red man to see on the other side of the road. There's only the one
on
> the press button so that only the couple of people standing right next to
it
> can see it. What on earth kind of thinking is that?
>
>
http://www.warwickshire.gov.uk/Web/corporate/pages.nsf/Links/1DCC12C3F2E7F61380256C68004B9F9E

Explains why Puffins are better than Pelicans


--
Lester Bailey
www.lesterbailey.org
www.aldburymorris.co.uk


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[Andy P]

"Lester" > wrote


http://www.warwickshire.gov.uk/Web/corporate/pages.nsf/Links/1DCC12C3F2E7F61
380256C68004B9F9E
>
> Explains why Puffins are better than Pelicans

No it doesn't. How can it possibly be better to have the thing that tells
you when it is safe to cross only visible to anyone standing right next to
it. The other 10 -20 odd people that are waiting to cross can only rely on
the movement of the people next to them or the stopping of cars both of
which are unreliable. The old Pelican crossings still had the indicator
above the push button as well.

[Lester]

"Andy P" > wrote in message
...
> "Lester" > wrote
>
>
>
http://www.warwickshire.gov.uk/Web/corporate/pages.nsf/Links/1DCC12C3F2E7F61
> 380256C68004B9F9E
> >
> > Explains why Puffins are better than Pelicans
>
> No it doesn't.
Sorry, explains why they think Puffins are better!


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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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[Zog The Undeniable]

martin wrote:

> From a cyclist point of view I find them much
> easier to negotiate, you don't get the cager police honking you when
> you ride over one which has no ped on it.

OK, I'll bite. Where in the Highway Code does it say you can ride
through an empty pelican crossing on a bike [1]? Don't you think this
gives the rest of us a bad name?

Roger

[1] unless you mean on flashing amber, of course

[martin]

Zog The Undeniable > wrote in message >...
> martin wrote:
>
> > From a cyclist point of view I find them much
> > easier to negotiate, you don't get the cager police honking you when
> > you ride over one which has no ped on it.
>
> OK, I'll bite. Where in the Highway Code does it say you can ride
> through an empty pelican crossing on a bike [1]? Don't you think this
> gives the rest of us a bad name?
>
> Roger
>
> [1] unless you mean on flashing amber, of course

of course (and green)

[martin]

Zog The Undeniable > wrote in message >...
> martin wrote:
>
> > From a cyclist point of view I find them much
> > easier to negotiate, you don't get the cager police honking you when
> > you ride over one which has no ped on it.
>
> OK, I'll bite. Where in the Highway Code does it say you can ride
> through an empty pelican crossing on a bike [1]? Don't you think this
> gives the rest of us a bad name?
>
> Roger
>
> [1] unless you mean on flashing amber, of course

of course (and green)

[David Hansen]

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:12:05 +0100 someone who may be "Andy P"
> wrote this:-

>Unlike the Pelican crossings they replaced there is no
>green/red man to see on the other side of the road. There's only the one on
>the press button so that only the couple of people standing right next to it
>can see it. What on earth kind of thinking is that?

A Puffin is a Pelican that has been "improved".

Of course the people who "improved" it only think of the world from
behind their windscreens. Thus their thinking appears to be:

1) Pelicans needlessly waste the valuable time of motorists. These
dammed pedestrians get fed up waiting for the lights to change and
cross before the lights change. How dare they! When they do this the
valuable time of motorists is wasted, so on a Puffin we fit a sensor
to prevent this.

2) There are only ever one or two pedestrians waiting to cross, so
we can save on light units by just having indications on the button.

3) Pedestrians are scroungers as they do not pay road tax. Therefore
they should be grateful for what they get. They can press a button
and wait until a set time has passed before the lights change.
Someone did suggest that perhaps motorists should stop, press a
button and wait until the lights change for them. WHAT A STUPID
IDEA.

So much for those that "improved" the Pelican. My view is that a
Pelican that reacts instantly to pressing the button is alright, but
a Zebra is far better. Best would be a Zebra that has a button which
when pressed springs up a black and white stripped fence across the
road, as in a well known cartoon.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

[David Hansen]

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:12:05 +0100 someone who may be "Andy P"
> wrote this:-

>Unlike the Pelican crossings they replaced there is no
>green/red man to see on the other side of the road. There's only the one on
>the press button so that only the couple of people standing right next to it
>can see it. What on earth kind of thinking is that?

A Puffin is a Pelican that has been "improved".

Of course the people who "improved" it only think of the world from
behind their windscreens. Thus their thinking appears to be:

1) Pelicans needlessly waste the valuable time of motorists. These
dammed pedestrians get fed up waiting for the lights to change and
cross before the lights change. How dare they! When they do this the
valuable time of motorists is wasted, so on a Puffin we fit a sensor
to prevent this.

2) There are only ever one or two pedestrians waiting to cross, so
we can save on light units by just having indications on the button.

3) Pedestrians are scroungers as they do not pay road tax. Therefore
they should be grateful for what they get. They can press a button
and wait until a set time has passed before the lights change.
Someone did suggest that perhaps motorists should stop, press a
button and wait until the lights change for them. WHAT A STUPID
IDEA.

So much for those that "improved" the Pelican. My view is that a
Pelican that reacts instantly to pressing the button is alright, but
a Zebra is far better. Best would be a Zebra that has a button which
when pressed springs up a black and white stripped fence across the
road, as in a well known cartoon.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

[Rory]

"Lester" > wrote in message >...
> "Andy P" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > They've just put something in the centre of Bristol which I think is
> called
> > a Puffin crossing. Unlike the Pelican crossings they replaced there is no
> > green/red man to see on the other side of the road. There's only the one
> on
> > the press button so that only the couple of people standing right next to
> it
> > can see it. What on earth kind of thinking is that?
> >
> >
> http://www.warwickshire.gov.uk/Web/corporate/pages.nsf/Links/1DCC12C3F2E7F61380256C68004B9F9E
>
> Explains why Puffins are better than Pelicans

"When the green man is illuminated, it is safe to start to cross the
road"
- does this mean the local authority, having told you it safe to
cross, will take responsibility when you get hit by the car running
the red light?

This is how it works in Germany - if you ever cross on a red ped
light, the other peds waiting will assail you with a barrage of
tutting, and comments like: "what an example for the children".
They're nuts: the example I want for my kids is that you must take a
personally responsible for your own safety, so looking for traffic is
key, not the colour of some light. A few days in France would
underline this, if they live that long.

[Rory]

"Lester" > wrote in message >...
> "Andy P" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > They've just put something in the centre of Bristol which I think is
> called
> > a Puffin crossing. Unlike the Pelican crossings they replaced there is no
> > green/red man to see on the other side of the road. There's only the one
> on
> > the press button so that only the couple of people standing right next to
> it
> > can see it. What on earth kind of thinking is that?
> >
> >
> http://www.warwickshire.gov.uk/Web/corporate/pages.nsf/Links/1DCC12C3F2E7F61380256C68004B9F9E
>
> Explains why Puffins are better than Pelicans

"When the green man is illuminated, it is safe to start to cross the
road"
- does this mean the local authority, having told you it safe to
cross, will take responsibility when you get hit by the car running
the red light?

This is how it works in Germany - if you ever cross on a red ped
light, the other peds waiting will assail you with a barrage of
tutting, and comments like: "what an example for the children".
They're nuts: the example I want for my kids is that you must take a
personally responsible for your own safety, so looking for traffic is
key, not the colour of some light. A few days in France would
underline this, if they live that long.

[al_Mossah]

"Rory" > wrote in message
om...
> "Lester" > wrote in message
>...
> > "Andy P" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > They've just put something in the centre of Bristol which I think is
> > called
> > > a Puffin crossing. Unlike the Pelican crossings they replaced there
is no
> > > green/red man to see on the other side of the road. There's only the
one
> > on
> > > the press button so that only the couple of people standing right next
to
> > it
> > > can see it. What on earth kind of thinking is that?
> > >
> > >
> >
http://www.warwickshire.gov.uk/Web/corporate/pages.nsf/Links/1DCC12C3F2E7F61380256C68004B9F9E
> >
> > Explains why Puffins are better than Pelicans
>
> "When the green man is illuminated, it is safe to start to cross the
> road"
> - does this mean the local authority, having told you it safe to
> cross, will take responsibility when you get hit by the car running
> the red light?
>
> This is how it works in Germany - if you ever cross on a red ped
> light, the other peds waiting will assail you with a barrage of
> tutting, and comments like: "what an example for the children".
> They're nuts: the example I want for my kids is that you must take a
> personally responsible for your own safety, so looking for traffic is
> key, not the colour of some light. A few days in France would
> underline this, if they live that long.

I lived in Glasgow for 12 years, where zebra crossings are almost unknown.
When driving my car (oops, admitted it), I found that when I came down to
England I almost went across zebra crossings where pedestrians were waiting.
The reason is that when you're relying on red lights, you just focus on the
red lights and don't look to the pavements where the pedestrians are.
Having now moved south I am much more aware of pedestrians, and tend to go
slower through towns.

Moral? Zebra crossings put a bit of pressure back on the cager to pay
attention to more than the 6ft of road directly in front of him / her. Keep
them. In fact, let's have more. Better still, let's change the principle
and have pedestrian right-of-way at all places in built-up-areas. The days
of cars being full of "important" people whilst the masses cringed on the
pavements tugging their forelocks to the gentry are long since past.

Radical? Not enough. Armed sentries with rocket-propelled grenades to
blast anyone speeding, going too close to a cyclist is the next logical
step.

Peter

[al_Mossah]

"Rory" > wrote in message
om...
> "Lester" > wrote in message
>...
> > "Andy P" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > They've just put something in the centre of Bristol which I think is
> > called
> > > a Puffin crossing. Unlike the Pelican crossings they replaced there
is no
> > > green/red man to see on the other side of the road. There's only the
one
> > on
> > > the press button so that only the couple of people standing right next
to
> > it
> > > can see it. What on earth kind of thinking is that?
> > >
> > >
> >
http://www.warwickshire.gov.uk/Web/corporate/pages.nsf/Links/1DCC12C3F2E7F61380256C68004B9F9E
> >
> > Explains why Puffins are better than Pelicans
>
> "When the green man is illuminated, it is safe to start to cross the
> road"
> - does this mean the local authority, having told you it safe to
> cross, will take responsibility when you get hit by the car running
> the red light?
>
> This is how it works in Germany - if you ever cross on a red ped
> light, the other peds waiting will assail you with a barrage of
> tutting, and comments like: "what an example for the children".
> They're nuts: the example I want for my kids is that you must take a
> personally responsible for your own safety, so looking for traffic is
> key, not the colour of some light. A few days in France would
> underline this, if they live that long.

I lived in Glasgow for 12 years, where zebra crossings are almost unknown.
When driving my car (oops, admitted it), I found that when I came down to
England I almost went across zebra crossings where pedestrians were waiting.
The reason is that when you're relying on red lights, you just focus on the
red lights and don't look to the pavements where the pedestrians are.
Having now moved south I am much more aware of pedestrians, and tend to go
slower through towns.

Moral? Zebra crossings put a bit of pressure back on the cager to pay
attention to more than the 6ft of road directly in front of him / her. Keep
them. In fact, let's have more. Better still, let's change the principle
and have pedestrian right-of-way at all places in built-up-areas. The days
of cars being full of "important" people whilst the masses cringed on the
pavements tugging their forelocks to the gentry are long since past.

Radical? Not enough. Armed sentries with rocket-propelled grenades to
blast anyone speeding, going too close to a cyclist is the next logical
step.

Peter

[Robert Bruce]

> This is how it works in Germany - if you ever cross on a red ped
> light, the other peds waiting will assail you with a barrage of
> tutting, and comments like: "what an example for the children".

In the old DDR I was told by an horrified East Berliner that I could be
arrested for crossing on a red pedestrian light. The road was completely
empty of motor vehicles, of course - not even a Trabant rattling over the
horizon.

--
Rob

Please keep conversations in the newsgroup so that all may contribute and
benefit.

[Robert Bruce]

> This is how it works in Germany - if you ever cross on a red ped
> light, the other peds waiting will assail you with a barrage of
> tutting, and comments like: "what an example for the children".

In the old DDR I was told by an horrified East Berliner that I could be
arrested for crossing on a red pedestrian light. The road was completely
empty of motor vehicles, of course - not even a Trabant rattling over the
horizon.

--
Rob

Please keep conversations in the newsgroup so that all may contribute and
benefit.

[Simon Brooke]

"al_Mossah" > writes:

> Moral? Zebra crossings put a bit of pressure back on the cager to pay
> attention to more than the 6ft of road directly in front of him / her. Keep
> them. In fact, let's have more. Better still, let's change the principle
> and have pedestrian right-of-way at all places in built-up-areas.

As I understand it, that's the law right now. Pedestrians have a right
to use the road (except motorways); cars do not, but use it by
license. If, when driving a car, you hit a pedestrian, claiming 'but I
had right of way' won't get you out of trouble.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Age equals angst multiplied by the speed of fright squared.
;; the Worlock

[Simon Brooke]

"al_Mossah" > writes:

> Moral? Zebra crossings put a bit of pressure back on the cager to pay
> attention to more than the 6ft of road directly in front of him / her. Keep
> them. In fact, let's have more. Better still, let's change the principle
> and have pedestrian right-of-way at all places in built-up-areas.

As I understand it, that's the law right now. Pedestrians have a right
to use the road (except motorways); cars do not, but use it by
license. If, when driving a car, you hit a pedestrian, claiming 'but I
had right of way' won't get you out of trouble.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Age equals angst multiplied by the speed of fright squared.
;; the Worlock

[Rory]

"Robert Bruce" <robatanalytical-dynamicsdotcodotyoukay> wrote in message >...
> > This is how it works in Germany - if you ever cross on a red ped
> > light, the other peds waiting will assail you with a barrage of
> > tutting, and comments like: "what an example for the children".
>
> In the old DDR I was told by an horrified East Berliner that I could be
> arrested for crossing on a red pedestrian light. The road was completely
> empty of motor vehicles, of course - not even a Trabant rattling over the
> horizon.

Yeah but the old Ossi Pedestrain lights were way cool, here's a piccy:
http://www.trabim.de/Trabi_Shop/PK-aa-02-5-Ampelmanchen-20TM.jpg

BTW, did you ever try getting past US customs & immigration with DDR
stamps in your passport? Do they think that spies actually travel on
thier own/real passports?

[Rory]

"Robert Bruce" <robatanalytical-dynamicsdotcodotyoukay> wrote in message >...
> > This is how it works in Germany - if you ever cross on a red ped
> > light, the other peds waiting will assail you with a barrage of
> > tutting, and comments like: "what an example for the children".
>
> In the old DDR I was told by an horrified East Berliner that I could be
> arrested for crossing on a red pedestrian light. The road was completely
> empty of motor vehicles, of course - not even a Trabant rattling over the
> horizon.

Yeah but the old Ossi Pedestrain lights were way cool, here's a piccy:
http://www.trabim.de/Trabi_Shop/PK-aa-02-5-Ampelmanchen-20TM.jpg

BTW, did you ever try getting past US customs & immigration with DDR
stamps in your passport? Do they think that spies actually travel on
thier own/real passports?

[Steve Rimmer]

In article >,
(al_Mossah) wrote:

>
> "Rory" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Lester" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > "Andy P" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > They've just put something in the centre of Bristol which I think
> > > > is
> > > called
> > > > a Puffin crossing. Unlike the Pelican crossings they replaced
> > > > there
> is no
> > > > green/red man to see on the other side of the road. There's only
> > > > the
> one
> > > on
> > > > the press button so that only the couple of people standing right
> > > > next
> to
> > > it
> > > > can see it. What on earth kind of thinking is that?
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> http://www.warwickshire.gov.uk/Web/corporate/pages.nsf/Links/1DCC12C3F2E
> 7F61380256C68004B9F9E
> > >
> > > Explains why Puffins are better than Pelicans
> >
> > "When the green man is illuminated, it is safe to start to cross the
> > road"
> > - does this mean the local authority, having told you it safe to
> > cross, will take responsibility when you get hit by the car running
> > the red light?
> >
> > This is how it works in Germany - if you ever cross on a red ped
> > light, the other peds waiting will assail you with a barrage of
> > tutting, and comments like: "what an example for the children".
> > They're nuts: the example I want for my kids is that you must take a
> > personally responsible for your own safety, so looking for traffic is
> > key, not the colour of some light. A few days in France would
> > underline this, if they live that long.
>
> I lived in Glasgow for 12 years, where zebra crossings are almost
> unknown.
> When driving my car (oops, admitted it), I found that when I came down
> to
> England I almost went across zebra crossings where pedestrians were
> waiting.
> The reason is that when you're relying on red lights, you just focus on
> the
> red lights and don't look to the pavements where the pedestrians are.
> Having now moved south I am much more aware of pedestrians, and tend to
> go
> slower through towns.
>
> Moral? Zebra crossings put a bit of pressure back on the cager to pay
> attention to more than the 6ft of road directly in front of him / her.
> Keep
> them. In fact, let's have more. Better still, let's change the
> principle
> and have pedestrian right-of-way at all places in built-up-areas. The
> days
> of cars being full of "important" people whilst the masses cringed on
> the
> pavements tugging their forelocks to the gentry are long since past.
>
> Radical? Not enough. Armed sentries with rocket-propelled grenades to
> blast anyone speeding, going too close to a cyclist is the next logical
> step.
>
> Peter
>
>
>

TBH I'm against Zebra crossings and greatly in favour of Pelican
crossings mainly because in my experience nine out of ten car drivers
speed up rather than slow down and stop. On the days I walk to work
rather than cycle I have to cross two Zebra and one Pelican crossings.
One of the Zebra crossings is over a busy road and I swear that it may as
well not be there, the only time I've been able to cross it was when there
was no traffic coming anyway. I've even got halfway across and had to
stop because a driver on the other side of the road has speeded up on a
fair few occasions :(
--
Steve Rimmer

[Steve Rimmer]

In article >,
(al_Mossah) wrote:

>
> "Rory" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Lester" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > "Andy P" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > They've just put something in the centre of Bristol which I think
> > > > is
> > > called
> > > > a Puffin crossing. Unlike the Pelican crossings they replaced
> > > > there
> is no
> > > > green/red man to see on the other side of the road. There's only
> > > > the
> one
> > > on
> > > > the press button so that only the couple of people standing right
> > > > next
> to
> > > it
> > > > can see it. What on earth kind of thinking is that?
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> http://www.warwickshire.gov.uk/Web/corporate/pages.nsf/Links/1DCC12C3F2E
> 7F61380256C68004B9F9E
> > >
> > > Explains why Puffins are better than Pelicans
> >
> > "When the green man is illuminated, it is safe to start to cross the
> > road"
> > - does this mean the local authority, having told you it safe to
> > cross, will take responsibility when you get hit by the car running
> > the red light?
> >
> > This is how it works in Germany - if you ever cross on a red ped
> > light, the other peds waiting will assail you with a barrage of
> > tutting, and comments like: "what an example for the children".
> > They're nuts: the example I want for my kids is that you must take a
> > personally responsible for your own safety, so looking for traffic is
> > key, not the colour of some light. A few days in France would
> > underline this, if they live that long.
>
> I lived in Glasgow for 12 years, where zebra crossings are almost
> unknown.
> When driving my car (oops, admitted it), I found that when I came down
> to
> England I almost went across zebra crossings where pedestrians were
> waiting.
> The reason is that when you're relying on red lights, you just focus on
> the
> red lights and don't look to the pavements where the pedestrians are.
> Having now moved south I am much more aware of pedestrians, and tend to
> go
> slower through towns.
>
> Moral? Zebra crossings put a bit of pressure back on the cager to pay
> attention to more than the 6ft of road directly in front of him / her.
> Keep
> them. In fact, let's have more. Better still, let's change the
> principle
> and have pedestrian right-of-way at all places in built-up-areas. The
> days
> of cars being full of "important" people whilst the masses cringed on
> the
> pavements tugging their forelocks to the gentry are long since past.
>
> Radical? Not enough. Armed sentries with rocket-propelled grenades to
> blast anyone speeding, going too close to a cyclist is the next logical
> step.
>
> Peter
>
>
>

TBH I'm against Zebra crossings and greatly in favour of Pelican
crossings mainly because in my experience nine out of ten car drivers
speed up rather than slow down and stop. On the days I walk to work
rather than cycle I have to cross two Zebra and one Pelican crossings.
One of the Zebra crossings is over a busy road and I swear that it may as
well not be there, the only time I've been able to cross it was when there
was no traffic coming anyway. I've even got halfway across and had to
stop because a driver on the other side of the road has speeded up on a
fair few occasions :(
--
Steve Rimmer

[Robert Bruce]

> the old Ossi Pedestrain lights were way cool, here's a piccy:
> http://www.trabim.de/Trabi_Shop/PK-aa-02-5-Ampelmanchen-20TM.jpg

Yep. I remember commenting that anyone living outside the 1950s would never
know whether to cross or not.

> BTW, did you ever try getting past US customs & immigration with DDR
> stamps in your passport?

I didn't visit the US until almost ten years later when the whole communist
experiment was a distant memory (it all happened so quickly, didn't it?). I
don't think the bloke at Philadelphia airport had even _heard_ of the German
Democratic Republic.

BTW, America was horrible; full of wonderful individuals who somehow come
together to form a simply grotesque society, and I haven't been back.

--
Rob

Please keep conversations in the newsgroup so that all may contribute and
benefit.

[Robert Bruce]

> the old Ossi Pedestrain lights were way cool, here's a piccy:
> http://www.trabim.de/Trabi_Shop/PK-aa-02-5-Ampelmanchen-20TM.jpg

Yep. I remember commenting that anyone living outside the 1950s would never
know whether to cross or not.

> BTW, did you ever try getting past US customs & immigration with DDR
> stamps in your passport?

I didn't visit the US until almost ten years later when the whole communist
experiment was a distant memory (it all happened so quickly, didn't it?). I
don't think the bloke at Philadelphia airport had even _heard_ of the German
Democratic Republic.

BTW, America was horrible; full of wonderful individuals who somehow come
together to form a simply grotesque society, and I haven't been back.

--
Rob

Please keep conversations in the newsgroup so that all may contribute and
benefit.

[Andy P]

"martin" > wrote

> ISTR hearing recently that BBs were to be phased out and replaced by
> Pelicans. From a ped point of view I can see the logic, a big red
> light is harder to ignore than a flashing orange thingy, but I have
> noticed many new installations of Belishas where a Pleican would be
> wholly inappropriate. From a cyclist point of view I find them much
> easier to negotiate, you don't get the cager police honking you when
> you ride over one which has no ped on it. Did anyone else here about
> them being phased out?
> ps the ones with illuminated white srtipes on the post are even
> better.

Apparently not in Bristol. A brand new one has just appeared.

[Andy P]

"martin" > wrote

> ISTR hearing recently that BBs were to be phased out and replaced by
> Pelicans. From a ped point of view I can see the logic, a big red
> light is harder to ignore than a flashing orange thingy, but I have
> noticed many new installations of Belishas where a Pleican would be
> wholly inappropriate. From a cyclist point of view I find them much
> easier to negotiate, you don't get the cager police honking you when
> you ride over one which has no ped on it. Did anyone else here about
> them being phased out?
> ps the ones with illuminated white srtipes on the post are even
> better.

Apparently not in Bristol. A brand new one has just appeared.

[Pete Biggs]

>> ISTR hearing recently that BBs were to be phased out and replaced by
>> Pelicans. From a ped point of view I can see the logic, a big red
>> light is harder to ignore than a flashing orange thingy, but I have
>> noticed many new installations of Belishas where a Pleican would be
>> wholly inappropriate. From a cyclist point of view I find them much
>> easier to negotiate, you don't get the cager police honking you when
>> you ride over one which has no ped on it. Did anyone else here about
>> them being phased out?

Not heard about it but I'm noticing it actually happening. Several Zebra
crossings in London that I've known for years have recently been replaced
with Pelicans for no apparent specific reason (although I know there have
been many accidents over the years at one I'm thinking of). Plus more
Pelicans are going up where previously there were just traffic islands
with no Zebra/Belisha. Yes I get very bored with red lights as a cyclist,
but as a pedestrian I feel much safer crossing on a Pelican so it's fair
enough.

A better alternative for both pedestrians and cyclists is islands at road
narrowings on two-lane roads (one lane each way) with no. Often no need
for Zebra or Pelican because pedestrians only need to take a very few
steps to get to safety and cars naturally slow down for the narrowings -
many drivers actually stop for waiting peds at these even though they're
not obliged to. Good for cyclists because of fewer traffic lights and
slower traffic - although not so good when two lanes on the carriageway
merge into one. (A few of these have cycle lanes that cut through but
they're very narrow and unswept).

~PB

[Pete Biggs]

>> ISTR hearing recently that BBs were to be phased out and replaced by
>> Pelicans. From a ped point of view I can see the logic, a big red
>> light is harder to ignore than a flashing orange thingy, but I have
>> noticed many new installations of Belishas where a Pleican would be
>> wholly inappropriate. From a cyclist point of view I find them much
>> easier to negotiate, you don't get the cager police honking you when
>> you ride over one which has no ped on it. Did anyone else here about
>> them being phased out?

Not heard about it but I'm noticing it actually happening. Several Zebra
crossings in London that I've known for years have recently been replaced
with Pelicans for no apparent specific reason (although I know there have
been many accidents over the years at one I'm thinking of). Plus more
Pelicans are going up where previously there were just traffic islands
with no Zebra/Belisha. Yes I get very bored with red lights as a cyclist,
but as a pedestrian I feel much safer crossing on a Pelican so it's fair
enough.

A better alternative for both pedestrians and cyclists is islands at road
narrowings on two-lane roads (one lane each way) with no. Often no need
for Zebra or Pelican because pedestrians only need to take a very few
steps to get to safety and cars naturally slow down for the narrowings -
many drivers actually stop for waiting peds at these even though they're
not obliged to. Good for cyclists because of fewer traffic lights and
slower traffic - although not so good when two lanes on the carriageway
merge into one. (A few of these have cycle lanes that cut through but
they're very narrow and unswept).

~PB

[Budgie]

Several Zebra crossings in London that I've known for years have recently
been replaced
| with Pelicans for no apparent specific reason

Visually-impaured people can't hear Belisha beacons.

Budgie


---
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[Budgie]

Several Zebra crossings in London that I've known for years have recently
been replaced
| with Pelicans for no apparent specific reason

Visually-impaured people can't hear Belisha beacons.

Budgie


---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.522 / Virus Database: 320 - Release Date: 29/09/2003

[Colin McKenzie]

Pete Biggs wrote:
> >> ISTR hearing recently that BBs were to be phased out and replaced by
> >> Pelicans.
> Not heard about it but I'm noticing it actually happening. Several Zebra
> crossings in London that I've known for years have recently been replaced
> with Pelicans for no apparent specific reason (although I know there have
> been many accidents over the years at one I'm thinking of). Plus more
> Pelicans are going up where previously there were just traffic islands
> with no Zebra/Belisha. Yes I get very bored with red lights as a cyclist,
> but as a pedestrian I feel much safer crossing on a Pelican so it's fair
> enough.

I believe the stats are that zebras are safer than pelicans, because
drivers and pedestrians check what other road users are doing instead of
just assuming they can go on a green light.

One reason they are being converted is for bus priority. Buses are quite
good at intimidating pedestrians into staying on the pavement at zebras,
but it's thought that uppity peds can be kept in their place even better
with a signal from the bus to a pelican to tell it to let the bus
through.

> A better alternative for both pedestrians and cyclists is islands at road
> narrowings on two-lane roads (one lane each way) with no.

Disagree. If the road is less than 4.5m either side of the island, it is
not safe for all drivers to overtake cyclists at that point - but they
often try anyway. It's tedious to have to take the lane to prevent this
- and even this doesn't help much with those who try to get past before
the island and misjudge.

Colin McKenzie

[Colin McKenzie]

Pete Biggs wrote:
> >> ISTR hearing recently that BBs were to be phased out and replaced by
> >> Pelicans.
> Not heard about it but I'm noticing it actually happening. Several Zebra
> crossings in London that I've known for years have recently been replaced
> with Pelicans for no apparent specific reason (although I know there have
> been many accidents over the years at one I'm thinking of). Plus more
> Pelicans are going up where previously there were just traffic islands
> with no Zebra/Belisha. Yes I get very bored with red lights as a cyclist,
> but as a pedestrian I feel much safer crossing on a Pelican so it's fair
> enough.

I believe the stats are that zebras are safer than pelicans, because
drivers and pedestrians check what other road users are doing instead of
just assuming they can go on a green light.

One reason they are being converted is for bus priority. Buses are quite
good at intimidating pedestrians into staying on the pavement at zebras,
but it's thought that uppity peds can be kept in their place even better
with a signal from the bus to a pelican to tell it to let the bus
through.

> A better alternative for both pedestrians and cyclists is islands at road
> narrowings on two-lane roads (one lane each way) with no.

Disagree. If the road is less than 4.5m either side of the island, it is
not safe for all drivers to overtake cyclists at that point - but they
often try anyway. It's tedious to have to take the lane to prevent this
- and even this doesn't help much with those who try to get past before
the island and misjudge.

Colin McKenzie

[Pete Biggs]

Colin McKenzie wrote:

> I believe the stats are that zebras are safer than pelicans, because
> drivers and pedestrians check what other road users are doing instead
> of just assuming they can go on a green light.

I surprised the stats show that. Must depend on each location, though.

>> A better alternative for both pedestrians and cyclists is islands at
>> road narrowings on two-lane roads (one lane each way)....
>
> Disagree. If the road is less than 4.5m either side of the island, it
> is not safe for all drivers to overtake cyclists at that point - but
> they often try anyway. It's tedious to have to take the lane to
> prevent this

It can be easy and not tedius when traffic speed is low, and because it so
obvious to motorists that there is little room, the cyclist has more
confidence than usual to take the lane (knowing that they are hardly
slowing motorists).

In any case, the narrowest ones are so narrow that drivers don't tend to
attempt to overtake cyclists at them. I know of a few on a high road at a
busy shopping centre which work very, very well - for pedestrians in
particular and also seem fine to me when cycling through. Maybe not so
good on faster, more open roads.

> - and even this doesn't help much with those who try to get past
> before
> the island and misjudge.

It helps if the whole road is quite narrow. The road I'm thinking of has
been narrowed by widening the pavement the whole way down but has extra
narrowings at some of the crossings. I agree that they're awkward for
cyclists where the narrowing is great - particularly when two lanes are
merged into one (on each side) - but we have to think of pedestrian safety
as well.

~PB

[Pete Biggs]

Colin McKenzie wrote:

> I believe the stats are that zebras are safer than pelicans, because
> drivers and pedestrians check what other road users are doing instead
> of just assuming they can go on a green light.

I surprised the stats show that. Must depend on each location, though.

>> A better alternative for both pedestrians and cyclists is islands at
>> road narrowings on two-lane roads (one lane each way)....
>
> Disagree. If the road is less than 4.5m either side of the island, it
> is not safe for all drivers to overtake cyclists at that point - but
> they often try anyway. It's tedious to have to take the lane to
> prevent this

It can be easy and not tedius when traffic speed is low, and because it so
obvious to motorists that there is little room, the cyclist has more
confidence than usual to take the lane (knowing that they are hardly
slowing motorists).

In any case, the narrowest ones are so narrow that drivers don't tend to
attempt to overtake cyclists at them. I know of a few on a high road at a
busy shopping centre which work very, very well - for pedestrians in
particular and also seem fine to me when cycling through. Maybe not so
good on faster, more open roads.

> - and even this doesn't help much with those who try to get past
> before
> the island and misjudge.

It helps if the whole road is quite narrow. The road I'm thinking of has
been narrowed by widening the pavement the whole way down but has extra
narrowings at some of the crossings. I agree that they're awkward for
cyclists where the narrowing is great - particularly when two lanes are
merged into one (on each side) - but we have to think of pedestrian safety
as well.

~PB

[Tony W]

"Colin McKenzie" > wrote in message
...

>
> Disagree. If the road is less than 4.5m either side of the island, it is
> not safe for all drivers to overtake cyclists at that point - but they
> often try anyway. It's tedious to have to take the lane to prevent this
> - and even this doesn't help much with those who try to get past before
> the island and misjudge.

Agreed. And I would add 4.5m of 'real' road. We have a recent version
where there is 4.5 m but where there are parking bays along the road edge --
so the wise cyclist is 1.5 m out from the kerb to avoid a dooring --
reducing the effective lane width to 3 to 3.5 m

A brand new example of the care and consideration of WS Atkins in the design
of road facilities.

T

[Tony W]

"Colin McKenzie" > wrote in message
...

>
> Disagree. If the road is less than 4.5m either side of the island, it is
> not safe for all drivers to overtake cyclists at that point - but they
> often try anyway. It's tedious to have to take the lane to prevent this
> - and even this doesn't help much with those who try to get past before
> the island and misjudge.

Agreed. And I would add 4.5m of 'real' road. We have a recent version
where there is 4.5 m but where there are parking bays along the road edge --
so the wise cyclist is 1.5 m out from the kerb to avoid a dooring --
reducing the effective lane width to 3 to 3.5 m

A brand new example of the care and consideration of WS Atkins in the design
of road facilities.

T

[Pete Biggs]

>> If the road is less than 4.5m either side of the island,
>> it is not safe for all drivers to overtake cyclists at that point -
>> but they often try anyway.

They do not if road is *much* less than 4.5m either side.

~PB

[Pete Biggs]

>> If the road is less than 4.5m either side of the island,
>> it is not safe for all drivers to overtake cyclists at that point -
>> but they often try anyway.

They do not if road is *much* less than 4.5m either side.

~PB

[Tony W]

"Pete Biggs" > wrote in message
...
>

>
> They do not if road is *much* less than 4.5m either side.

You clearly have not met some of the drongos that I have.

On one stretch in Ware, Herts over about a seven year period I've had two or
three motorists go round the wrong side of the island, several snook in and
fishtail at the last possible moment and one wreck his front tyre & rim when
he clipped the kerb :~) He tried to blame me!!

Since moving I've had one go round the wrong side on one stretch of road
with several pinch points.

They are mad -- totally mad.

[Tony W]

"Pete Biggs" > wrote in message
...
>

>
> They do not if road is *much* less than 4.5m either side.

You clearly have not met some of the drongos that I have.

On one stretch in Ware, Herts over about a seven year period I've had two or
three motorists go round the wrong side of the island, several snook in and
fishtail at the last possible moment and one wreck his front tyre & rim when
he clipped the kerb :~) He tried to blame me!!

Since moving I've had one go round the wrong side on one stretch of road
with several pinch points.

They are mad -- totally mad.